Court order to Verizon to turn over mass data to the NSA

[David88vert]

Obama's Administration is actually trying to have all data transmitted through cellular communication networks. While individual names and the content of the call may or may not be included now - you can bet that they will want that later. Report: Court order forces Verizon to turn over records of millions - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/06/politics/nsa-verizon-records/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

[Sinfix_15]

I guess when he said "most transparent government ever" what he really meant is that you will be the most transparent to government ever.

[Browning151]

It's pretty bad when even Al Gore thinks you're out there....


Gore, in a tweet following the Guardian report, wrote, "In the digital era, privacy must be a priority. Is it just me, or is secret blanket surveillance obscenely outrageous?"

"Reject those voices......" Riiiiiight.

[.blank cd]

Focusing on a part of the Patriot Act that allows the government to gather records, they wrote, "As we see it, there is now a significant gap between what most Americans think the law allows and what the government claims the law allows. This is a problem, because it is impossible to have an informed public debate about what the law should say when the public doesn't know what its government thinks the law says."This is true for EVERY issue in politics. The gap between what you think you know, and what it actually is.

So what is this order actually? What is its purpose? What does the Obama administration have to do with this?

[David88vert]

So what is this order actually? What is its purpose? What does the Obama administration have to do with this?

If you read the article, you would know.

[.blank cd]

If you read the article, you would know.

Actually, I read that the order is classified, and that the Obama administration has very little to do with this. So what do you know that this article doesn't mention?

[David88vert]

Actually, I read that the order is classified, and that the Obama administration has very little to do with this. So what do you know that this article doesn't mention?

You obviously did not comprehend what you read then. Do you believe that the DOJ does not work with the WH Administration? Why is it that Senators, Representatives, the ACLU, etc, all understand the implications, but you do not?

[.blank cd]

You obviously did not comprehend what you read then. Do you believe that the DOJ does not work with the WH Administration? Why is it that Senators, Representatives, the ACLU, etc, all understand the implications, but you do not?

They seem to understand something different than you, according to the article anyway. But you can interpret the article how you wish, as its you're right. But just understand the order comes from the NSA, NOT the Obama administration. As it says in the article. Your first post is misleading at best, and a blatant falsehood at worst.

[David88vert]

They seem to understand something different than you, according to the article anyway. But you can interpret the article how you wish, as its you're right. But just understand the order comes from the NSA, NOT the Obama administration. As it says in the article. Your first post is misleading at best, and a blatant falsehood at worst.

You obviously don't know that the NSA is an agency of the US DoD, and that falls under the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and their mission was set forth by Executive Order 12333.
In case you were not paying attention, this all stems from Bush's "President's Surveillance Program".

[Echonova]

Who here thinks Verizon is the only provider they have done this to, raise your hand.




~crickets~

[.blank cd]

You obviously don't know that the NSA is an agency of the US DoD, and that falls under the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and their mission was set forth by Executive Order 12333.
In case you were not paying attention, this all stems from Bush's "President's Surveillance Program".

So since this is the NSA's responsibility, and its headed by someone appointed during the Bush Administration, and according to you an executive order by Reagan, what does this have to do with Obama?

[David88vert]

So what does this have to do with Obama?

Who does the Secretary of Defense report to, and who is the new Secretary of Defense?

[.blank cd]

Who does the Secretary of Defense report to, and who is the new Secretary of Defense?

I see nothing about the secretary of defense's involvement after the 4th time reading the article. I have seen that the administration has yet to comment. So what has the SoD told you that they haven't told CNN yet? Lol

[.blank cd]

And I'm still trying to figure out what my cause for alarm should be

[Echonova]

And I'm still trying to figure out what my cause for alarm should beYou never will.

[.blank cd]

You never will.

I know. Sucks not being overly paranoid about every little action of the big bad government. Lol.

[Vteckidd]

Honestly this is a black mark on all admins.

Bush set in forth the Dept of Homeland Security which has lead to the TSA and drones , wiretaps, all kinds of invasions of privacy. However, Obama has done nothing to slow this down and has in many cases EXPANDED it. We are now drone killing american citizens abroad. These are the same poeple who bitched about waterboarding 3 people who were NOT US Citizens.

Blank, Obama doesnt live on and Island and get to take credit for good and distance himself from the bad. He is the commander in chief, the buck stops with him. He is the one who sets the tone for the rest of the department to follow. This is why cabinet appointees are very relevant.

Did Obama order this, no, but people who work with him and for him knew this went on. That doesnt absolve him.

To me it looks like his agencies are running rogue, targeting people at will and hiding behind bullshit excuses and Obama washes his hands and says "well i didnt do it directly". Im sorry but when youre the president, you take responsibility. You are held accountable for actions under your administration.

This isnt so much an indictment against Obama, its an indictment against the dangers of big government and the power they will yield. FYI these were MILLIONS OF PHONE RECORDS in relation to the Boston Bombing. They used a terrorist attack to go after MILLIONS of phone records pertaining to 2 people?

[Browning151]

I know. Sucks not being overly paranoid about every little action of the big bad government. Lol.

http://goodybagsblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bury-your-head-in-the-sand.jpg

[.blank cd]

Honestly this is a black mark on all admins.

Bush set in forth the Dept of Homeland Security which has lead to the TSA and drones , wiretaps, all kinds of invasions of privacy. However, Obama has done nothing to slow this down and has in many cases EXPANDED it. We are now drone killing american citizens abroad. These are the same poeple who bitched about waterboarding 3 people who were NOT US Citizens.Theres a difference between torture and expanding access (for what seems to be a limited time) to cell phone metadata. A very clear one. Lol.


Blank, Obama doesnt live on and Island and get to take credit for good and distance himself from the bad. He is the commander in chief, the buck stops with him.So who gets to decide what's "good" and what's "bad"? How are you deciding what's good and what's bad? The details are classified. All you've heard is The NSA wants the ability to collect metadata from Verizon. Still trying to figure out what Obamas role in this was, since he hasn't given a statement and all. And the reality of it is, the buck doesn't always stop with him. That's not how our government is set up. And it's that way for a reason.

[.blank cd]

http://goodybagsblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bury-your-head-in-the-sand.jpg
I figured that was coming.

So do you believe, when there's something that you don't understand, classified or not, that the government always has bad and evil intentions?

[.blank cd]

"This is a black mark on the administration"

I don't get tired of hearing that phrase

/s

[Browning151]

http://youtu.be/gbLX7_ezkK8

[Browning151]

I figured that was coming.

So do you believe, when there's something that you don't understand, classified or not, that the government always has bad and evil intentions?

Who said anything about bad and evil intentions? The mere fact that the gov't continually gives themselves more access to whatever personal information about you they want to see should be alarming enough.

[Vteckidd]

Theres a difference between torture and expanding access (for what seems to be a limited time) to cell phone metadata. A very clear one. Lol.

So who gets to decide what's "good" and what's "bad"? How are you deciding what's good and what's bad? The details are classified. All you've heard is The NSA wants the ability to collect metadata from Verizon. Still trying to figure out what Obamas role in this was, since he hasn't given a statement and all. And the reality of it is, the buck doesn't always stop with him. That's not how our government is set up. And it's that way for a reason.

Funny how the same treatment was never given to other people along other party lines.

Funny how that works out isnt it?

Yes, the buck ALWAYS STOPS WITH HIM, hes the president.

Otherwise we get the culture that we have now, the "I DONT KNOW" or "IM NOT APART OF EVERY DECISION". Anyone that is in Obamas admin just hapens to forget or act like they had nothing to do with ANYTIME they are caught in a lie. Why is that?

[Vteckidd]

So drone attacks killing american citizens isnt the same as WATER BOARDING (which isnt torture FYI).

REALLY?

you obviously havent read the report that Catherine Herrige came out with today, she toured the NSAs Utah data center by helicopter, and she is the one breaking this story. Democrats are condemning it. The NSA took MILLIONS of records under court order from cell phones from geographical location to contact numbers, social networking, etc. MILLIONS.

Let that sink in for a minute.

That doesnt BOTHER YOU?

If it was President Bush wouldnt it BOTHER you that the govt is getting increasingly aggressive towards its citizens ?

IRS is targeting specific voters to suppress the vote
Holder signs off on targeting AP Reporters and Opposition reporter for NO REASON (they even admitted they never would have prosecuted Rosen)
Benghazi we still have no answers as to what happened despite Eye Witness testimony directly contradicting WH officials LIES

I mean its getting pretty bad.

Obama is either the most incompetent and inept executive in charge, or he is very good at deflecting and distancing himself from everything his administration is doing.

[.blank cd]

Funny how the same treatment was never given to other people along other party lines.

Funny how that works out isnt it?Well, we're not talking about someone along another party line are we?


Yes, the buck ALWAYS STOPS WITH HIM, hes the president.Sorry. Not always. This is how its been for the past couple hundred years. Nothing changed when Obama came into town. Unless they changed that part in the constitution about the separation of powers recently and I didn't hear about it. Lol. But you know how the liberal left is, always secretly changing the constitution. Damn liberals.


Otherwise we get the culture that we have now, the "I DONT KNOW" or "IM NOT APART OF EVERY DECISION". Anyone that is in Obamas admin just hapens to forget or act like they had nothing to do with ANYTIME they are caught in a lie. Why is that?I haven't seen an instance of that happening outside of the recent manufactured crises.

[.blank cd]

So drone attacks killing american citizens isnt the same as WATER BOARDING (which isnt torture FYI).Waterboarding is very much in fact torture. We all know that. Call it enhanced interrogation if you want, same thing. There's no debate about that. But lets not go off on a tangent here


The NSA took MILLIONS of records under court order from cell phones from geographical location to contact numbers, social networking, etc. MILLIONS.

Let that sink in for a minute.

That doesnt BOTHER YOU?

If it was President Bush wouldnt it BOTHER you that the govt is getting increasingly aggressive towards its citizens?Not under your personal definition of increasingly aggressive, no. If you're going to label requesting the access to these millions of cell phone records (which, what THEY contain is still currently classified) as aggressive, you're gonna have to prove to me exactly what they are, and exactly what they're doing with them.

[RandomGuy]

What about all of those breaches out there in the private sector? Do you think that none of that information makes it back to our intelligence? Do you think none of it is orchestrated by them (or at least funded by them... contracted out to to seedy firms).
6 Biggest Breaches Of 2012 So Far -- Dark Reading (http://www.darkreading.com/database/6-biggest-breaches-of-2012-so-far/240002408)

From the people who brought you Stuxnet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet) They may have some insider access to exploits, No?

Why is a private firm in control of something like this that would be so incredibly widespread? Carrier IQ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_IQ)

Also: Germany accused of using Trojan to spy on citizens | ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/germany-accused-of-using-trojan-to-spy-on-citizens-3040094145/)

Do a google search on "Bundestrojaner light"

Even funnier is that I can no longer find the articles I've read on reputable websites about a remote access backdoor that SHIPPED installed on the iphone 4 in some european country without disclosure. Wow.

All of our info out there is up for their taking, the key is how can they use it without getting themselves in trouble. That is what all the current legislation is seeking to address.

[bu villain]

This is possible because of the PATRIOT act. I don't see why some people insist on turning this into a partisan issue. Both sides are guilty. How about holding everyone who voted for the PATRIOT act responsible, both under Bush and under Obama's tenure.

[Vteckidd]

Thats exactly what I said. Yet Blank is acting like Obama gets no blame for this. Obama is the one that promised to end all this, yet hes turned a blind eye and let it get WORSE.

Bush used this tactic to go after foreign nationals and interacting with local or US grown associates. It was more targeted searches. Over the years (not directly Obamas fault) is has grown to more and more broad. Now we are seeing MUCH more broad implementation.

Bush Admin said "hey can i borrow your Honda Civic? Thanks"

Obama Admin said "Hey can i borrow your car?" and proceeded to borrow every car youll ever own for the rest of your life.

This just goes to show how bad big government can get and how they ALWAYS ABUSE their power, not matter what happens. Im not saying Obama should suffer personally for this, but hes responsible for letting this go on unchecked under his administration, and given the pattern we are seeing in all the other scandals he has going on, its becoming increasingly aware he is either incompetent or very good at plausible denial.

2 Qualities I dont want in my president

[bu villain]

I'm fine with blaming Obama as long as an equal amount of ire is directed at everyone else who deserves it. How many others are being held accountable in this thread so far? Everyone in this forum has a GA representative who voted for the PATRIOT act, yet not a single person here is giving them shit for it. Why not? As GA residents, they are supposed to represent us more directly than Obama!

[RandomGuy]

Thats exactly what I said. Yet Blank is acting like Obama gets no blame for this. Obama is the one that promised to end all this, yet hes turned a blind eye and let it get WORSE.

Bush used this tactic to go after foreign nationals and interacting with local or US grown associates. It was more targeted searches. Over the years (not directly Obamas fault) is has grown to more and more broad. Now we are seeing MUCH more broad implementation.

Bush Admin said "hey can i borrow your Honda Civic? Thanks"

Obama Admin said "Hey can i borrow your car?" and proceeded to borrow every car youll ever own for the rest of your life.

This just goes to show how bad big government can get and how they ALWAYS ABUSE their power, not matter what happens. Im not saying Obama should suffer personally for this, but hes responsible for letting this go on unchecked under his administration, and given the pattern we are seeing in all the other scandals he has going on, its becoming increasingly aware he is either incompetent or very good at plausible denial.

2 Qualities I dont want in my president

Remember this thread: http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/news-politics/280520-obama-signs-one-year-extension-patriot-act.html

How times change

[Vteckidd]

^^ not at all.

Read what I have written. I am consistent on this issue. I see not problem with targeted searches to obtain information. This is MUCH MORE More than that.

Blank is right we dont know all the details, but , they initial report by a well respected reporter is that MILLION of metadata was obtained shortly after the Boston Bombing. MILLIONS? Why MILLIONS? Did they use a domestic terrorist attack as a cover to go after tons of records? It sounds like a gross breach of power.



Youre equating me saying I support the patriot act in what was described with blind massive unwarranted seizure and encroaching the right to privacy.

[Vteckidd]

IMO I have seen NO EVIDENCE that big brother is crossing into gross intrusion of privacy. The CIA and FBI have had scare words for decades. They monitor peoples reading habits, website visits etc

2 years later, considering what the Govt is doing with the IRS and voter suppression, Holder and the AP wire taps and lies, now this, i have changed my opinion.

Or should I say "evolved" to quote Obama?

[Sinfix_15]

Blank, like every other Obama supporter, is going to go down with the ship. His support is unconditional.

[.blank cd]

Blank, like every other Obama supporter, is going to go down with the ship. His support is unconditional.

Facepalm.

[Vteckidd]

I guess the point is that, a law passed, with the best intentions, almost always gets abused and twisted to the point of erroding freedoms. It happens under all administrations.

That doesnt mean we should have no laws, it means that we should elect better leaders, and TERM LIMITS i think are going to be the key. Politicians have figured out how to get elected and stay in power forever. Im surprised Verizon didnt say FUCK YOU and take it to the supreme court

[Echonova]

This just in: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in broad secret program - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html?hpid=z1)


But the program started under Bush so it's ok.

[Elbow]

If Obama flat out shot a civilian Blank would have an excuse on why he did it or say it's not entirely about Obama. Jeez dude come on....

As for the rest of this, who cares? The government may see what I text or who I call? I hope they don't get offended on my search history of "teen pussy" or something like that. I bet I'll be in trouble.

[eraser4g63]

I like blanks response. " nothing to see here, move along... This is business as usual..."

[.blank cd]

If Obama flat out shot a civilian Blank would have an excuse on why he did it or say it's not entirely about Obama. Jeez dude come on....
In all seriousness, I'm not gonna come in here and condemn something I don't know about. No one really knows what is going on, including everyone in here, as everything is pretty much classified at this point, pso its foolish to come to a conclusion as to how alarmed anyone should be.

Sure, maybe I'm not a big fan of the government having everyone's telephone numbers, but I'm gonna bet money they're not gonna sit around and prank call people, and Im sure there isn't anyone in the back of the White House rubbing one out to the dick pics on my phone or anyone else's for that matter. I've grown past this whole "scary evil big bad government" theory. There's no evidence for it so I'm not gonna perpetuate it. You can call me a liberal commie with his head in the sand if you want, but if Bush or Romney were in the hot seat, Id have said the same thing.

It's too easy to chalk everything up to "Obama is an socialistkenyanmuslimcommunistliberalatheist", and frankly it gets old hearing it over and over again. I'd much rather figure out what's really going on.

[.blank cd]

I like blanks response. " nothing to see here, move along... This is business as usual..."

Typical response from you. "He doesn't think like us so his head is in the sandAHAHAHAHAHALIB"

The hive mind.

[David88vert]

I see nothing about the secretary of defense's involvement after the 4th time reading the article. I have seen that the administration has yet to comment. So what has the SoD told you that they haven't told CNN yet? Lol

You are either trolling, or literally have no concept of how the US government agencies report.
Do you even know that the Secretary of Defense answers to the President? Anything that the NSA does falls under the direction of the DoD, the Secretary, and the President.

Read the 4 pager for yourself:
Verizon forced to hand over telephone data (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order)

BTW - Verizon Business Services is not consumer services, so why exactly does the US government need to throw a broad net over all internet communication done by domestic businesses? You can't say that is related to the Boston bombings, which would be consumer services, and would be limited to a geographic area and specific numbers. This is a massive amount of data collection. I am highly familiar with how the telecommunications industry segments its service offerings.

Now, let me make this clear - citizens own and operate businesses, so that is how it affects individuals. The order targeting Verizon Business Customers should be business communications, not individual consumer cellphones, but of course, individuals work for businesses.
From a legal standpoint, it is quite likely that the NSA is NOT violating any "individual rights" if they are targeting businesses, but we should still be concerned about the expansion of privacy intrusion.

[David88vert]

I'm fine with blaming Obama as long as an equal amount of ire is directed at everyone else who deserves it. How many others are being held accountable in this thread so far? Everyone in this forum has a GA representative who voted for the PATRIOT act, yet not a single person here is giving them shit for it. Why not? As GA residents, they are supposed to represent us more directly than Obama!

The NSA falls under the Executive branch, and Congress is already setting up hearings for next week on it.
FBI Direct Robert Mueller will be asked about the matter, when he appears next week before the House Judiciary Committee.
The report will also be the subject of an upcoming classified briefing by Attorney General Eric Holder to the Senate Appropriations Committee. Its chairman, Sen. Barbara Mikulski, is calling for a similar closed-door briefing for the entire U.S. Senate.

[David88vert]

Im surprised Verizon didnt say FUCK YOU and take it to the supreme court

Bandwidth is controlled by the US government. If you want to stay in business with the least amount of problems, you cooperate.

[David88vert]

In all seriousness, I'm not gonna come in here and condemn something I don't know about. No one really knows what is going on, including everyone in here, as everything is pretty much classified at this point, pso its foolish to come to a conclusion as to how alarmed anyone should be.

Sure, maybe I'm not a big fan of the government having everyone's telephone numbers, but I'm gonna bet money they're not gonna sit around and prank call people, and Im sure there isn't anyone in the back of the White House rubbing one out to the dick pics on my phone or anyone else's for that matter. I've grown past this whole "scary evil big bad government" theory. There's no evidence for it so I'm not gonna perpetuate it. You can call me a liberal commie with his head in the sand if you want, but if Bush or Romney were in the hot seat, Id have said the same thing.

It's too easy to chalk everything up to "Obama is an socialistkenyanmuslimcommunistliberalatheist", and frankly it gets old hearing it over and over again. I'd much rather figure out what's really going on.

This is a much more reasonable post.
What you don't understand is that the telecommunications companies have massive databases on their customers, with a lot of Sensitive Private Information data (SPI). The US government now wants full, unfettered access to all of that data. There is no reasonable explanation coming with this request, instead, the request itself is being sealed. That should raise a red flag to you just by itself.
No one has said that the government will use the information with bad intent; however, if you look at history, you will see that the majority of privacy intrusions are not to the benefit of the citizens, but rather benefit the attempts to consolidate power by those currently in power. This is not just an "Obama thing" or a "Democratic thing" - this is a government intrusion, and envelopes both party platforms.

[David88vert]

Typical response from you. "He doesn't think like us so his head is in the sandAHAHAHAHAHALIB"

The hive mind.

Would you say that the concern of Congress, the ACLU, the media, and the citizens is all from "the hive mind"? Do you realize that so far, you have only three people that seem to agree with your assessment - and that would be Saxby Chambliss, Dianne Feinstein, and the White House spokesman, Josh Earnest.

[.blank cd]

Would you say that the concern of Congress, the ACLU, the media, and the citizens is all from "the hive mind"? Do you realize that so far, you have only three people that seem to agree with your assessment - and that would be Saxby Chambliss, Dianne Feinstein, and the White House spokesman, Josh Earnest.

Don't forget the NSA, the FBI (and I guess according to you, the rest of the DOJ), and some judges.

[BanginJimmy]

Sorry. Not always. This is how its been for the past couple hundred years. Nothing changed when Obama came into town. Unless they changed that part in the constitution about the separation of powers recently and I didn't hear about it. Lol. But you know how the liberal left is, always secretly changing the constitution. Damn liberals.

You might want to check out your civics book again. EVERY SINGLE issue that has come up under the Obama admin has come from the Executive Branch. That means every agency currently facing a scandal is is under the direct control of an Obama appointee.


I haven't seen an instance of that happening outside of the recent manufactured crises.

Then you obviously havent been paying attention. I can think of 7 or 8 that are running right now and none of them are 'maufactured', they are all legit issues. Benghazi, IRS non profit branch, IRS audits, EPA, 3 from the DOJ (Fast and Furious, Journalists targeted, Verizon). There are a couple more out there but I am drawing a blank right now. The only ones that have made the level of scandal are F&F and the IRS non profit branch. The others are either being pretty much ignored or are more politics than anything.


Waterboarding is very much in fact torture. We all know that.

We dont all know that. I personally dont consider it torture.


I've grown past this whole "scary evil big bad government" theory. There's no evidence for it so I'm not gonna perpetuate it.

Are you honestly saying there is no evidence that govt agencies can and will target political enemies when they want to?

[David88vert]

Don't forget the NSA, the FBI (and I guess according to you, the rest of the DOJ), and some judges.

The NSA speaking up for its own interest? That is your supporting argument?
The FBI hadn't issued a statement that I saw yesterday - but they will have to soon. I suspect that they would support an extension of power that would be given to them though, don't you?
The DOJ has been very clear that they want to expand their abilities for surveillance for a long time. Nothing new there, but I didn't see a statement from them or any judges yesterday on this issue.

[eraser4g63]

"The hive mindset" if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

[David88vert]

More details are surfacing : Why the Government Won't Stop Collecting American Phone Records - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/government-stop-collecting-american-phone-records/story?id=19342370#.UbHZw_jD9fw)

Not just all phone records, but all internet traffic as well are being monitored, and the WH is openly defending it.

Here's a question:
Do you think that all WH administrations that will have access to these abilities will voluntarily choose not to exploit them for political gain? An example would be a Republican President gathering records of calls of Democrat President-elect candidates and their Congressional and financial supporters. Do you really believe that wouldn't happen.

Let's remember that a certain SENATOR Obama made a very public speech about Bush's data collection through blanket phone call and internet data mining. just read a transcript of his own words.
http://obamaspeeches.com/041-The-PATRIOT-Act-Obama-Speech.htm

[.blank cd]

"The hive mindset" if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

Do you know what hive mind means? Lol

[Vteckidd]

The Obama administration has already shown it will use arms of their agencies to target and suppress opposition support. I do not trust them.


Not aware of Bush doing it with the data mining mentioned before.

[eraser4g63]

Nope blank don't have a clue what it is, however I am a registered bee keeper with the state of Georgia, I have hives registers with the state of Georgia and hold the business license for Jean Stevens Apiaries and Farms and I am part of a co-op that provides raw honey to retailers. ;-)

[eraser4g63]

By the way blank if your queen was is one of my hives I would have squashed him and replaced hime him with one that was actually productive.

[.blank cd]

The Obama administration has already shown it will use arms of their agencies to target and suppress opposition support. I do not trust them.LOL. How is the Obama administration suppressing opposition? There is no opposition, Obama isnt going anywhere, and "conservative" voices are hardly silent. I hope you don't mean the manufactured IRS crisis that's falling apart in front of their faces.

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features.nsf/Articles/D2A6C735EAFA7A9085257B7B004C0D90

The more and more I hear the falsehoods, the less and less I feel sorry for conservatives. That ended up being the opposite of suppression. It made them louder for no reason. But the IRS thing has run its course at this point.

Granting your "side" the majority of non profit apps, and then when applications from your "side" increase exponentially, more of them get rejected. Sorry. It's a stat problem. Investigating and denying your free tax ride applications isn't anywhere even remotely close to opposition suppression. It is however a good way to devalue the voices of opposition who were ACTUALLY being suppressed.

[Echonova]

Skip to 4:30



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-D4Eu4a3Fk

[BanginJimmy]

LOL. How is the Obama administration suppressing opposition? There is no opposition, Obama isnt going anywhere, and "conservative" voices are hardly silent. I hope you don't mean the manufactured IRS crisis that's falling apart in front of their faces.

Tax Analysts -- News Analysis -- Substantial Minority of Scrutinized EOs Were Not Conservative (http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features.nsf/Articles/D2A6C735EAFA7A9085257B7B004C0D90)

The more and more I hear the falsehoods, the less and less I feel sorry for conservatives. That ended up being the opposite of suppression. It made them louder for no reason. But the IRS thing has run its course at this point.

Granting your "side" the majority of non profit apps, and then when applications from your "side" increase exponentially, more of them get rejected. Sorry. It's a stat problem. Investigating and denying your free tax ride applications isn't anywhere even remotely close to opposition suppression. It is however a good way to devalue the voices of opposition who were ACTUALLY being suppressed.

You really only do see what you want to see dont you?

IRS employees: Washington IRS official Carter Hull oversaw targeting | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/05/irs-employees-washington-irs-official-carter-hull-oversaw-targeting-of-conservative-groups/)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/07/us-usa-irs-scrutiny-idUSBRE95605X20130607


If anything about this seems manufactured, it is the outrage Obama tried to show. Every time they pull back a layer of this story it gets closer to the top. It also proved beyond any doubt that the Admin has been lying the entire time.

[Browning151]

You really only do see what you want to see dont you?

IRS employees: Washington IRS official Carter Hull oversaw targeting | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/05/irs-employees-washington-irs-official-carter-hull-oversaw-targeting-of-conservative-groups/)

Misfired 2010 email alerted IRS officials in Washington of targeting | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/07/us-usa-irs-scrutiny-idUSBRE95605X20130607)


If anything about this seems manufactured, it is the outrage Obama tried to show. Every time they pull back a layer of this story it gets closer to the top. It also proved beyond any doubt that the Admin has been lying the entire time.

I was just reading an article along those lines from the AJC and was coming over here to post it.

Blank seems to think that only the "dumb closed minded republicans" are outraged by the recent scandals and that any evidence to the contrary is just simply manufactured and fake, and all these things are small potatoes and not to be worried about according to him.

[BanginJimmy]

I was just reading an article along those lines from the AJC and was coming over here to post it.

Blank seems to think that only the "dumb closed minded republicans" are outraged by the recent scandals and that any evidence to the contrary is just simply manufactured and fake, and all these things are small potatoes and not to be worried about according to him.

When the New York Times Editorial Board says this admin has no credibility, you know they have troubles.

Black will probably come on here and say the NYT is just a right wing rag though so it cant be trusted.

[bu villain]

The NSA falls under the Executive branch, and Congress is already setting up hearings for next week on it.
FBI Direct Robert Mueller will be asked about the matter, when he appears next week before the House Judiciary Committee.
The report will also be the subject of an upcoming classified briefing by Attorney General Eric Holder to the Senate Appropriations Committee. Its chairman, Sen. Barbara Mikulski, is calling for a similar closed-door briefing for the entire U.S. Senate.

The thing is, what they did is probably completely legal under the PATRIOT act. Now just because it is legal doesn't mean it is ethical which is why I do believe the executive branch deserves some of the blame. But congress passed the act which allowed this unethical behavior. They need to be held responsible too and I don't see anyone in here directing their anger towards their elected representative who helped make this overreach possible in the first place.

[.blank cd]

You really only do see what you want to see dont you?

IRS employees: Washington IRS official Carter Hull oversaw targeting | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/05/irs-employees-washington-irs-official-carter-hull-oversaw-targeting-of-conservative-groups/)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/07/us-usa-irs-scrutiny-idUSBRE95605X20130607

No, I don't see what I want. Everyone calls it targeting. Targeting targeting targeting. When you actually look into what the "targeting" is, it's actually not targeting at all.

[David88vert]

The thing is, what they did is probably completely legal under the PATRIOT act. Now just because it is legal doesn't mean it is ethical which is why I do believe the executive branch deserves some of the blame. But congress passed the act which allowed this unethical behavior. They need to be held responsible too and I don't see anyone in here directing their anger towards their elected representative who helped make this overreach possible in the first place.

It is legal; however, it was misrepresented multiple times to Congress including recently. Watch the video on the ABC News page, and you can see for yourself how Congress was lied to concerning how it would be implemented.



As for blank's saying that the buck doesn't stop with the President, Obama DISAGREES with blank. He defended his position on it today:
Obama: ‘Nobody Is Listening to Your Phone Calls’ - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/obama-nobody-is-listening-to-your-phone-calls/)

He is correct that no one is listening to the actual call - that would take too long. The metadata that he is referring to for phone calls is correct; however, it is not the same for internet communications and email.

[bu villain]

It is legal; however, it was misrepresented multiple times to Congress including recently. Watch the video on the ABC News page, and you can see for yourself how Congress was lied to concerning how it would be implemented.

Again, the executive branch deserves some anger but I don't think congress is off the hook because the executive branch promised to not use all the overreaching authority congress gave to them. Naivety on Congress's part is not a good enough excuse.

[BanginJimmy]

No, I don't see what I want. Everyone calls it targeting. Targeting targeting targeting. When you actually look into what the "targeting" is, it's actually not targeting at all.

Then what do you call it when only groups with conservative terms or principles laid out in their applications have to deal with such heavy scrutiny? Remember that no groups with liberal terms or principles on their applications seemed to have the same problems.

[David88vert]

Again, the executive branch deserves some anger but I don't think congress is off the hook because the executive branch promised to not use all the overreaching authority congress gave to them. Naivety on Congress's part is not a good enough excuse.

I agree with you on this, if Congress had actually thought this through, they would have identified the probable abuse of power. After all, it was mentioned as a distinct probability for days when they first started discussing the implementation of the plan.

[RandomGuy]

Chinese hacking only part of the story – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs (http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/07/chinese-hacking-only-part-of-the-story/)

[Echonova]

If we can search every American's phone data and email without their knowledge/consent... Why can't we profile???



Seems like a much better solution.

[BanginJimmy]

If we can search every American's phone data and email without their knowledge/consent... Why can't we profile???



Seems like a much better solution.


Cause profiling could unfairly target innocent people.


And if you are white, profiling makes you a racist.

[.blank cd]

As for blank's saying that the buck doesn't stop with the President, Obama DISAGREES with blank. He defended his position on it today:
Obama: ‘Nobody Is Listening to Your Phone Calls’ - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/obama-nobody-is-listening-to-your-phone-calls/)LOL. Nothing in that link suggest he disagrees with me. The fact is that the buck doesn't always stop with him. This is in the constitution. There isn't a debate about it. Lol.

[.blank cd]

Then what do you call it when only groups with conservative terms or principles laid out in their applications have to deal with such heavy scrutiny?Conservative groups aren't the only ones subject to investigations.


Remember that no groups with liberal terms or principles on their applications seemed to have the same problems.Actually, more conservative groups got approved free tax rides than liberals in that given period of time. That's what Im trying to say. It's not a "targeting" problem. It's a statistics problem and its a problem of happenstance. This didnt become an issue until after the election when the new tea party emerged. The number of applications exploded, so the number of investigations increased in a short period of time. The people who've brought it up and blown it up in the media have decided to focus on the explosion of investigations and not on what caused them. As a result, it looks like a target instead of what it really is: happenstance.

[Echonova]

Cause profiling could unfairly target innocent people. LIKE ALL OF AMERICA?!?!?!?

[Browning151]

Conservative groups aren't the only ones subject to investigations.

Actually, more conservative groups got approved free tax rides than liberals in that given period of time. That's what Im trying to say. It's not a "targeting" problem. It's a statistics problem and its a problem of happenstance. This didnt become an issue until after the election when the new tea party emerged. The number of applications exploded, so the number of investigations increased in a short period of time. The people who've brought it up and blown it up in the media have decided to focus on the explosion of investigations and not on what caused them. As a result, it looks like a target instead of what it really is: happenstance.


Nothing more really needs to be said about this post other than one of your own personal favorite lines:

Facepalm.

[David88vert]

LOL. Nothing in that link suggest he disagrees with me. The fact is that the buck doesn't always stop with him. This is in the constitution. There isn't a debate about it. Lol.

Let's review your previous comments in this thread.


... the Obama administration has very little to do with this ...


... the order comes from the NSA, NOT the Obama administration...


... what does this have to do with Obama?


...Still trying to figure out what Obamas role in this was ....

Now from the article:
"President Obama today dismissed the “hype” surrounding his administration’s secret surveillance of Americans’ phone records and the nation’s Internet activity and defended the programs as key to protecting national security."

And his own words:
"I came in with a healthy skepticism about these programs. My team evaluated them. We scrubbed them thoroughly. We actually expanded some of the oversight, increased some of safeguards. But my assessment and my team's assessment was that they help us prevent terrorist attacks. And the modest encroachments on the privacy that are involved in getting phone numbers or duration without a name attached and not looking at content, that on net, it was worth us doing."

He sure seems to be taking the responsibility. Everyone else but you sees that clearly.

[.blank cd]

Nothing more really needs to be said about this post other than one of your own personal favorite lines:

Facepalm.

Sorry that anything other than what they feed you on Fox News is difficult to understand.

[Browning151]

Sorry that anything other than what they feed you on Fox News is difficult to understand.

lol, I couldn't even tell you the last time I watched any of those cable "news" networks, or even listened to any meaningful amount of talk radio, but believe whatever you want. You're pretty good at that.

Also, see the post above yours, David pretty much broke it down for you since you can't seem to grasp it.

[.blank cd]

lol, I couldn't even tell you the last time I watched any of those cable "news" networks, or even listened to any meaningful amount of talk radio, but believe whatever you want. You're pretty good at that.

Also, see the post above yours, David pretty much broke it down for you since you can't seem to grasp it.

I saw it. Nothing in his post has contradicted what I've said.

[Browning151]

I saw it. Nothing in his post has contradicted what I've said.

You've got to be trolling at this point.

[BanginJimmy]

Conservative groups aren't the only ones subject to investigations.

Of course not, but they were the only ones investigated.



Actually, more conservative groups got approved free tax rides than liberals in that given period of time. That's what Im trying to say. It's not a "targeting" problem. It's a statistics problem and its a problem of happenstance. This didnt become an issue until after the election when the new tea party emerged. The number of applications exploded, so the number of investigations increased in a short period of time. The people who've brought it up and blown it up in the media have decided to focus on the explosion of investigations and not on what caused them. As a result, it looks like a target instead of what it really is: happenstance.

Can you find a mention of just 1 liberal group that received ANY scrutiny in this same time period? Can you find just 1 case in which a liberal group was sent one of these questionnaires? I havent heard a single one and I know for a fact that would have been speaking up loudly by now to try to prove it wasnt targeting. Can you explain why damn near every statement given by the IRS on this issue has turned out to be a lie? Can you explain why the IRS employee in Cinnci was acting under the direct orders of Carter Hull, who works in the DC office, yet everyone else from DC seems to know nothing about this?

I could go on for hours about the IRS and no one can answer the questions because the IRS is stonewalling and/or flat out lying at every turn. Yet you still this this is just a little coincidence. Ignore the man behind the curtain.

[Echonova]

Of course not, but they were the only ones investigated.




Can you find a mention of just 1 liberal group that received ANY scrutiny in this same time period? Can you find just 1 case in which a liberal group was sent one of these questionnaires? I havent heard a single one and I know for a fact that would have been speaking up loudly by now to try to prove it wasnt targeting. Can you explain why damn near every statement given by the IRS on this issue has turned out to be a lie? Can you explain why the IRS employee in Cinnci was acting under the direct orders of Carter Hull, who works in the DC office, yet everyone else from DC seems to know nothing about this?

I could go on for hours about the IRS and no one can answer the questions because the IRS is stonewalling and/or flat out lying at every turn. Yet you still this this is just a little coincidence. Ignore the man behind the curtain.Don't forget the Barack H. Obama Foundation (started by Obama's half brother in Kenya) that Lois Lerner personally backdated the approval for over two years. Which she does not have the authority to do and is illegal. Well, unless you're a Obama supporter. After the Susan Rice promotion, this chick may have a cabinet post by the end of the week.


May 9th 2011... The story broke. Malik Obama's 'Barack H. Obama Foundation' Raises Questions (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/09/malik-obama-charity_n_859563.html)
May 30th, 2011 Lerner got the paperwork, personally approved and illegally made it retroactive in less than a month. The Lois Lerner Defense | National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/349853/lois-lerner-defense-mark-steyn)

[David88vert]

I saw it. Nothing in his post has contradicted what I've said.

So, we have established that you cannot even comprehend what you type yourself. You have zero credibility when you can't even understand your own statements.

[.blank cd]

So, we have established that you cannot even comprehend what you type yourself. You have zero credibility when you can't even understand your own statements.

Gotcha

[BanginJimmy]

Don't forget the Barack H. Obama Foundation (started by Obama's half brother in Kenya) that Lois Lerner personally backdated the approval for over two years. Which she does not have the authority to do and is illegal. Well, unless you're a Obama supporter. After the Susan Rice promotion, this chick may have a cabinet post by the end of the week.


May 9th 2011... The story broke. Malik Obama's 'Barack H. Obama Foundation' Raises Questions (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/09/malik-obama-charity_n_859563.html)
May 30th, 2011 Lerner got the paperwork, personally approved and illegally made it retroactive in less than a month. The Lois Lerner Defense | National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/349853/lois-lerner-defense-mark-steyn)

Like I said, I could go on for hours with the IRS. My favorite one though is a tea party group that actually did send the IRS a list of its major donors and very soon after that, that list made it into the hands of ProPublica, a left leaning Journalism organization.

IRS released confidential info on conservative groups to ProPublica (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/05/14/irs-released-confidential-info-on-conservative-groups-to-propublica/)


BTW, there is a group of Senators, both right and left, who are looking to bring Lerner back to the Hill to actually answer questions. She may have waived her 5th Amendment rights with her speech before her actual testimony. Also, she said she has done nothing wrong, why would someone who did nothing illegal need to protect them self from self incrimination?

[Echonova]

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j402/Echonova2/972126_10151440278456884_1299522541_n_zpsb3ae0a36. jpg

[RandomGuy]

Everyone, I think it'd be an important time to more heavily scrutinize inconsistent media/news articles that are in front of you.

For example, here's the Washington Post's 5 most popular articles (Global):
245139

[.blank cd]

It would also be a great time to scrutinize the apparent selective outrage going on.

Since ACA became a thing, conservatives/republicans have actively voted to repeal it more than 30 times.

The patriot act has been voted on one time. And that was to extend it.

That is exactly the bullshit that highlights the radical partisan divide in politics. "Lets repeal everything Obama does because Obama did it and the news told me Obamas bad." Not "lets repeal everything that ACTUALLY infringes on our rights."

...but nothing will happen, the right will continue to bitch about tin-foil NSA phone tapping scandals--and at the same time--waste time voting again to repeal ACA next month. Gotta love it.

[BanginJimmy]

It would also be a great time to scrutinize the apparent selective outrage going on.

Since ACA became a thing, conservatives/republicans have actively voted to repeal it more than 30 times.

The patriot act has been voted on one time. And that was to extend it.

That is exactly the bullshit that highlights the radical partisan divide in politics. "Lets repeal everything Obama does because Obama did it and the news told me Obamas bad." Not "lets repeal everything that ACTUALLY infringes on our rights."

...but nothing will happen, the right will continue to bitch about tin-foil NSA phone tapping scandals--and at the same time--waste time voting again to repeal ACA next month. Gotta love it.

1. Patriot Act has widespread bipartisan support. The only complaints you are seeing right now is the apparent expansion of programs that began with the Patriot act.

2. Each and every criticism of Obamacare is looking to come true, yet you still think it is just about Obama. Maybe for just 1 second you can put your racial outrage to the side for a second and start looking at reality. Really think it, can you find a single significant reform made by Obamacare in which the negatives dont outweigh the positives?

[.blank cd]

1. Patriot Act has widespread bipartisan support. The only complaints you are seeing right now is the apparent expansion of programs that began with the Patriot act.Only complaints? LMAO. Have you been to the airport in the past 11 years?


2. Each and every criticism of Obamacare is looking to come true, yet you still think it is just about Obama. Maybe for just 1 second you can put your racial outrage to the side for a second and start looking at reality. Really think it, can you find a single significant reform made by Obamacare in which the negatives dont outweigh the positives?Except they're not really coming true according to any and every non partisan study ever performed. No ones freedoms are being infringed. The only thing people are complaining about is the minor financial inconveniences. No ones complaining about the fact that women get increased coverage, sick people get increased coverage, kids get increased coverage, among a myriad of other positives.

The patriot act has been actively putting boot to chin of the 4th amendment for the past 11 years, all for pseudo-patriotism, and yet not a single eye has flinched. We're too busy trying to shoot down female contraceptives coverage for pre-existing conditions, 36 times to be precise, because "OBAMASOCIALISUM IS BAD" while the rest of the industrialized world mocks us.

[BanginJimmy]

Only complaints? LMAO. Have you been to the airport in the past 11 years?

What does the TSA have to do with the Patriot Act?


Except they're not really coming true according to any and every non partisan study ever performed.

Really? So prices arent going up? You can keep your insurance plan if you like it?




No ones freedoms are being infringed. The only thing people are complaining about is the minor financial inconveniences.

Really? What if I am healthy and would prefer to only have a major medical plan? Oh right, thats now illegal. "MINOR financial inconveniences"? You mean major financial penalties?




No ones complaining about the fact that women get increased coverage, sick people get increased coverage, kids get increased coverage, among a myriad of other positives.

What coverage that wasnt offered previously? I'm unaware of any. Either way, all of them can be summed up with one simple phrase. One that describes every other entitlement program in American. The cost is unsustainable.

It isnt even a little bit of a surprise to anyone that used a little common sense that every year the 10 year estimates for Obamacare are ballooning. They used 10 years of taxes and penalties to offset the costs of 6 years of benefits. Next year you will see a 10 year estimate of over 2T and it will continue to grow from there.

[RandomGuy]

It would also be a great time to scrutinize the apparent selective outrage going on.

Since ACA became a thing, conservatives/republicans have actively voted to repeal it more than 30 times.

The patriot act has been voted on one time. And that was to extend it.

That is exactly the bullshit that highlights the radical partisan divide in politics. "Lets repeal everything Obama does because Obama did it and the news told me Obamas bad." Not "lets repeal everything that ACTUALLY infringes on our rights."

...but nothing will happen, the right will continue to bitch about tin-foil NSA phone tapping scandals--and at the same time--waste time voting again to repeal ACA next month. Gotta love it.
lol but see those threads no one really cares about.

I don't really post threads in politics too often, but when I do I guess it's something I consider to be serious:

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/off-topic/289678-obama-internet-nanny.html

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/news-politics/334369-internets-being-regulated-behind-closed-doors-week-what-do-you-think.html

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/news-politics/331397-student-exposes-voter-fraud-school-elections-then-gets-suspended.html

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/news-politics/336871-figured-you-guys-would-find-funny-dhs-checkpoint-refusals.html

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/news-politics/332891-politicians-lie-but-heres-interesting-tool-i-found.html

[RandomGuy]

anyone remember that big annoying animated stop sign at the top of the page a little over a year and a half ago,

The big one that said STOP SOPA, PIPA, CISPA, etc I had that up on the top of the site for months. I eventually forwarded the link in the stop sign to http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/business-talk/323087-sopa-pipa-petition-sign-people.html after SOPA was shot down, but new ones were constantly being proposed.

When I got in control of the site, I removed all of the sponsor ad banners and replaced them with that for 4 months.

[.blank cd]

anyone remember that big annoying animated stop sign at the top of the page a little over a year and a half ago,

The big one that said STOP SOPA, PIPA, CISPA, etc I had that up on the top of the site for months. I eventually forwarded the link in the stop sign to http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/business-talk/323087-sopa-pipa-petition-sign-people.html after SOPA was shot down, but new ones were constantly being proposed.

When I got in control of the site, I removed all of the sponsor ad banners and replaced them with that for 4 months.

Good guy Randomguy