News article - " Some prison terms too long"

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Eric Holder: Some prison terms too long - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/politico44/2013/04/eric-holder-some-prison-terms-too-long-160897.html#.UWMmS22XOGA.twitter)


"I am concerned by a troubling report released by the United States Sentencing Commission in February, which indicates that – in recent years – black male offenders have received sentences that are nearly 20 percent longer than those imposed on white males convicted of similar crimes," Holder said in his address, which came on the 45th anniversary of the assassination of Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

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"It is time to ask ourselves some fundamental questions about our criminal justice system. Statutes passed by legislatures that mandate sentences, irrespective of the unique facts of an individual case, too often bear no relation to the conduct at issue, breed disrespect for the system, and are ultimately counterproductive. It is time to examine our systems and determine what truly works. We need to ensure that incarceration is used to punish, to rehabilitate, and to deter – and not simply to warehouse and forget," Holder argued.

I don't disagree with any of this particularly in respect to non-violent offenses. That doesn't mean I think any and every offense is punished too harshly, just many non-violent ones.

[Vteckidd]

Find it funny that a blatant racist is upset about racial problems.

But, if the facts are there to back this up, then it warrants looking into. The problem that no one will actually talk about is that different states and counties have different punishments. are we talking about a Black Male vs a White Male in the SAME city/county/municipality or are we comparing a Black Male in GA to a White male in Montana?

Too many factors also like prior convictions, prior run ins with the law, etc etc etc

[bu villain]

Find it funny that a blatant racist is upset about racial problems.

In my experience, racists are usually the most concerned about racial problems.


But, if the facts are there to back this up, then it warrants looking into. The problem that no one will actually talk about is that different states and counties have different punishments. are we talking about a Black Male vs a White Male in the SAME city/county/municipality or are we comparing a Black Male in GA to a White male in Montana?

Too many factors also like prior convictions, prior run ins with the law, etc etc etc

Agreed, that stat is cause for concern but it is not conclusive on its own.

[Sinfix_15]

Find it funny that a blatant racist is upset about racial problems.

But, if the facts are there to back this up, then it warrants looking into. The problem that no one will actually talk about is that different states and counties have different punishments. are we talking about a Black Male vs a White Male in the SAME city/county/municipality or are we comparing a Black Male in GA to a White male in Montana?

Too many factors also like prior convictions, prior run ins with the law, etc etc etc

Coming from someone else, his argument might be more palatable, but Eric Holder is a sorry piece of shit.

It wouldnt overly surprise me if they could find statistics that looked like unfair treatment on paper, but having witnessed said experiences in person, i can understand how they happen. I think you probably nailed it with your question though....... "white males in montana vs black males in GA"..... they have a much wider range of white males to sample from, where as a majority of black males are in densely populated cities.


From my person experience.......

Me inside a courtroom.
"Guilty. Yes sir. Yes sir. No sir. Yes sir. No sir. Thank you"

The 75 other black males inside the courtroom.
"Nawww, see listen here... what had happen was.... huh? oh, not guilty.... oh? i mean guilty then, but what had happened was... oh, just my plead? ok, guilty.... see what had happen was, dat officer be like youz was goin 55 in a 45 and i thought the speed limit was 55 cause i hadnt seen no sign. oh really? ok, guilty i guess, im sorry"

[Vteckidd]

The few times I have been to court for minor offenses, most Hispanic and African Americans were completely improperly dressed as well as wearings hats and sagging their pants. I mean for a traffic ticket im not wearing a suit and tie, but i put on a button down or nice polo.

I have see less white people dressed disrespectfully than minorities.

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The few times I have been to court for minor offenses, most Hispanic and African Americans were completely improperly dressed as well as wearings hats and sagging their pants. I mean for a traffic ticket im not wearing a suit and tie, but i put on a button down or nice polo.

I have see less white people dressed disrespectfully than minorities.

If i felt like the system was out to get me.... as most minorities seem to think, i would probably make sure i was on my A game. If the system is out to get them, which i dont believe....... they damn sure make it easy on them.

[bu villain]

From my person experience.......

Me inside a courtroom.
"Guilty. Yes sir. Yes sir. No sir. Yes sir. No sir. Thank you"

The 75 other black males inside the courtroom.
"Nawww, see listen here... what had happen was.... huh? oh, not guilty.... oh? i mean guilty then, but what had happened was... oh, just my plead? ok, guilty.... see what had happen was, dat officer be like youz was goin 55 in a 45 and i thought the speed limit was 55 cause i hadnt seen no sign. oh really? ok, guilty i guess, im sorry"


The few times I have been to court for minor offenses, most Hispanic and African Americans were completely improperly dressed as well as wearings hats and sagging their pants. I mean for a traffic ticket im not wearing a suit and tie, but i put on a button down or nice polo.

I have see less white people dressed disrespectfully than minorities.

I don't think a person's clothes, improper english, or desire to explain their situation should be cause for harsher penalty though. What they did to wind up in court is what is important.

[Vteckidd]

I don't think a person's clothes, improper english, or desire to explain their situation should be cause for harsher penalty though. What they did to wind up in court is what is important.

its disrespectful, and you will get treated differently. So by that thinking , you think showing up with a backwards hat and a shirt that says FUCK YOU YOU FUCKIN FUCK to a job interview doesnt affect the outcome?

EDIT: English, no, unless the guy is like "YO DAWG, SHAWTY, ". Slang isnt acceptable.

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I don't think a person's clothes, improper english, or desire to explain their situation should be cause for harsher penalty though. What they did to wind up in court is what is important.

Then you need to overhaul the entire legal system, because thats just how it works. If a judge has a range of options to sentence you with, the impression you make towards that judge can decide whether youre on the higher or lower end of that sentencing.

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Child A knocks over a lamp playing in the living room. They immediately stop what theyre doing and apologize for it. They realize they made a mistake and they know how it happened and say they wont do it again.

Child B is playing baseball in the living room, they knock over the lamp and do not seem to care or understand that it is a problem, they continue playing baseball in the living room as if nothing happened.

Both children knocked over a lamp. Do you punish them the same?

[bu villain]

its disrespectful, and you will get treated differently. So by that thinking , you think showing up with a backwards hat and a shirt that says FUCK YOU YOU FUCKIN FUCK to a job interview doesnt affect the outcome?

EDIT: English, no, unless the guy is like "YO DAWG, SHAWTY, ". Slang isnt acceptable.

I didn't say how you dress won't affect the outcome, I said that it shouldn't. Also, not everyone knows how to speak proper english. I don't see why their ignorance of language justifies a penalty which may include jail time.


Then you need to overhaul the entire legal system, because thats just how it works. If a judge has a range of options to sentence you with, the impression you make towards that judge can decide whether youre on the higher or lower end of that sentencing.

Yes it can but I don't think it always should. Clothes and language skills I don't consider relevant to punishment. Remorse however is relevant.


Child A knocks over a lamp playing in the living room. They immediately stop what theyre doing and apologize for it. They realize they made a mistake and they know how it happened and say they wont do it again.

Child B is playing baseball in the living room, they knock over the lamp and do not seem to care or understand that it is a problem, they continue playing baseball in the living room as if nothing happened.

Both children knocked over a lamp. Do you punish them the same?

No, but your scenario you posted before, your fictional character said he made a mistake (thought it was 55 zone) and that he was sorry. Your condemnation was purely about how he looked and his handle of grammar and court procedure.

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No, but your scenario you posted before, your fictional character said he made a mistake (thought it was 55 zone) and that he was sorry. Your condemnation was purely about how he looked and his handle of grammar and court procedure.

Legal punishments are a lesson with the intention of preventing future violation. Some people give the impression that they need more of a lesson. It's the judges job to make that assessment.

The fictional character above also thought that not seeing the sign was a valid excuse. He also didnt understand there was punishment for his action since be attempted to dispute guilt. Now he will have a more firm understanding of the process and punishment.

[bu villain]

Legal punishments are a lesson with the intention of preventing future violation. Some people give the impression that they need more of a lesson. It's the judges job to make that assessment.

The fictional character above also thought that not seeing the sign was a valid excuse. He also didnt understand there was punishment for his action since be attempted to dispute guilt. Now he will have a more firm understanding of the process and punishment.

Now you are saying the reason for extra punishment is because he doesn't understand the law in the first place. That is quite a different argument from clothes and grammar. You still haven't provided an argument for why clothing is a reason to increase punishment.

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Now you are saying the reason for extra punishment is because he doesn't understand the law in the first place. That is quite a different argument from clothes and grammar. You still haven't provided an argument for why clothing is a reason to increase punishment.

Clothing alone is not a reason to increase punishment. Clothing is a factor in deciding someone's demeanor. Your demeanor inside of a courtroom speaks to your respect of the proceeding. Also.... they coach people on how to act inside of a court room..... someone outside will tell you to tuck in your shirt and how to address the judge. If you ignore that advice.... you're probably more likely to ignore said law that you're in violation of.

[Vteckidd]

Bu you are acting like things such as showing remorse doesnt affect sentencing (or is it effect, SHIT).

How you act, dress, speak in court dictates how you get treated.

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Really Vteck?


I didn't say how you dress won't affect the outcome, I said that it shouldn't.


Clothes and language skills I don't consider relevant to punishment. Remorse however is relevant.

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Coming from someone else, his argument might be more palatable, but Eric Holder is a sorry piece of shit.So then why does it matter who proposed the argument, if the argument is undoubtedly worth an ounce of concern?

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So then why does it matter who proposed the argument, if the argument is undoubtedly worth an ounce of concern?

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

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So then why does it matter who proposed the argument, if the argument is undoubtedly worth an ounce of concern?

It doesnt. The only difference is that since it came from Eric Holder, i read it expecting bullshit. If not for that, i would have read it and then realized it was bullshit. Either way, bullshit was the conclusion.

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It doesnt. The only difference is that since it came from Eric Holder, i read it expecting bullshit. If not for that, i would have read it and then realized it was bullshit. Either way, bullshit was the conclusion.

So what you're saying is, despite the fact that blacks get stiffer sentences than whites for the same crimes, it doesn't concern you only because Eric Holder said it?

[Vteckidd]

So what you're saying is, despite the fact that blacks get stiffer sentences than whites for the same crimes, it doesn't concern you only because Eric Holder said it?

Do those blacks have more priors? Live in different counties?

You realize not all punishments are the same.

Why are more blacks incarcerated than whites? Maybe because they commit more crimes?

[Vteckidd]

The Bell Curve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve)

[Sinfix_15]

So what you're saying is, despite the fact that blacks get stiffer sentences than whites for the same crimes, it doesn't concern you only because Eric Holder said it?

Dont care who said it but acknowledge Eric Holder is a piece of shit. The message being delivered offers no conclusive evidence of wrong doing. It's racist pandering.

You have a much larger group of white males to sample from than you do black males. Black males are mostly located in densely populated cities where as white males are located..... everywhere. Whatever "statistic" he referenced undoubtedly lumps all of these areas together. You say "blacks get stiffer sentences than whites for the same crimes" as if this is some kind of fact, its not. Black people do commit more crimes than white people though..... so if for some reason, defying all logic... you still want to believe that white people are treated unjustly more fair by our legal system, then chalk it up as a "good driver discount" like they advertise on those allstate commercials.

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Do those blacks have more priors? Live in different counties?

You realize not all punishments are the same.

Why are more blacks incarcerated than whites? Maybe because they commit more crimes?

Before I read this report from the sentencing commission, I'm gonna assume for the sake of the researchers integrity that all of those factors were taken into account.

If a black guy and a white guy, same age, same history, commit the same exact crime, you would expect the sentencing to be the same, no?

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Dont care who said it but acknowledge Eric Holder is a piece of shit. The message being delivered offers no conclusive evidence of wrong doing. It's racist pandering. His message was that he was concerned about the commissions report that blacks are sentenced harsher than whites.

How is that racist pandering?

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I'm guessing no one has read the report and yet some people seem to have already decided the conclusion that it is wrong. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, we should reserve judgement until we have read it.

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His message was that he was concerned about the commissions report that blacks are sentenced harsher than whites.

How is that racist pandering?

He's feeding the victim mentality. If you dont want to be judged by a judge, then dont commit a crime. Problem solved. If blacks are treated any different, its because collectively, they are a problem. Black people are 13% of the population, yet theyre half of the crime rate.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........

Maybe we need to get our priorities straight. Continuing to feed the notion that black people are victims should not be high on the list.

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He's feeding the victim mentality. If you dont want to be judged by a judge, then dont commit a crime. Problem solved. If blacks are treated any different, its because collectively, they are a problem. Black people are 13% of the population, yet theyre half of the crime rate.So your suggestion is to fight crime with racism?

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I'm guessing no one has read the report and yet some people seem to have already decided the conclusion that it is wrong. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, we should reserve judgement until we have read it.

I started to skim it, but it doesn't seem to me like the accuracy of the report is in question...

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So your suggestion is to fight crime with racism?

Why isnt your concern with the elevated crime rate among blacks rather than the perception of it?

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Why isnt your concern with the elevated crime rate among blacks rather than the perception of it?

Because that's a separate issue with its own causalities all together.

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Because that's a separate issue with its own causalities all together.

You sure know how to pick which issues to be passionate about.

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So your suggestion is to fight crime with racism, and anyone who voices a concern with that is just a liberal democratic race baiter?

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You sure know how to pick which issues to be passionate about.

You know that picture of the kid mixed with bin laden? And he says some incoherent sentances with a bunch of mixed up subjects? I try to avoid looking like that by separating the things I'm talking about into their own lines of thought.

I can be passionate about why blacks are sentenced longer than whites, but that wasn't the issue.

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So your suggestion is to fight crime with racism, and anyone who voices a concern with that is just a liberal democratic race baiter?

Acknowledging that blacks make up a larger than normal percentage of crimes is not racism. Expecting people to ignore that blacks make up a larger than normal percentage of crimes..... jury still out on that one.

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Acknowledging that blacks make up a larger than normal percentage of crimes is not racism. Expecting people to ignore that blacks make up a larger than normal percentage of crimes..... jury still out on that one.

"Larger than normal" percentage of crime? What's a normal percentage of crime? Are you saying that white crime is the baseline we should shoot for?

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"Larger than normal" percentage of crime? What's a normal percentage of crime? Are you saying that white crime is the baseline we should shoot for?

http://web-images.chacha.com/images/Gallery/5753/who-are-the-most-offensive-movie-characters-105519593-apr-5-2013-1-600x400.jpg

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disproportionate.

If i have 24 apples to be shared with 6 kids. 5 white kids and 1 black kid. If the black kid eats 12 apples, that is a disproportionate amount of apples for him to consume.

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disproportionate.

If i have 24 apples to be shared with 6 kids. 5 white kids and 1 black kid. If the black kid eats 12 apples, that is a disproportionate amount of apples for him to consume.

What does that have to do with anything?

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What does that have to do with anything?

I think that black kid really likes apples. You seem to disagree with me.

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No, whites are not the "bar" for crime rates..... the ideal crime rate is 0.

I see no fault in acknowledging that blacks are the furthest away from that "bar"

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No, whites are not the "bar" for crime rates..... the ideal crime rate is 0.

I see no fault in acknowledging that blacks are the furthest away from that "bar"
That's ok, but we still have to acknowledge that there are a lot of factors involved that can't be overlooked when assessing that blacks are further away from that baseline than whites.

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That's ok, but we still have to acknowledge that there are a lot of factors involved that can't be overlooked when assessing that blacks are further away from that baseline than whites.

open for debate.

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Not really. Lol

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Not really. Lol

Throw some excuses at me.

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I've had enough for tonight..... my closing argument is as follows.


Once you go white, you only get an overnight.

Once you go black, use your 1 phone call to tell em you aint coming back.

harharhar

[David88vert]

That's ok, but we still have to acknowledge that there are a lot of factors involved that can't be overlooked when assessing that blacks are further away from that baseline than whites.


Not really. Crimes committed and convicted of, sorted and counted by race. Its basic FBI statistical analysis.
The reason as to why they committed a crime is not part of THAT statistic.
We all know that addressing environmental factors has potential to alter these statistics in the future.

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Not really. Crimes committed and convicted of, sorted and counted by race. Its basic FBI statistical analysis.
The reason as to why they committed a crime is not part of THAT statistic.
We all know that addressing environmental factors has potential to alter these statistics in the future.

So why are you confirming what I said? Lol.

[David88vert]

I'm not conforming to anything. Your earlier statement wasn't exactly correct, but I understood your meaning, and don't disagree with it.