SOTU- I didnt watch but caught 1 sound byte..............$9/hr minimum wage?

[Vteckidd]

Saw the recap of most of the SOTU, more of the same , nothing fancy or exciting. More promises of shit that congress will NEVER pass, more lies about how its deficit neutral, blah blah blah.

but then i caught the "raise $9/hr" portion, and I cannot believe the president of the united states is saying this. Anyone else believe in this? Its a terrible idea. It is basically forcing inflation on everyone. Wages should rise because market demands higher wages. Minimum wage ISNT for people to SURVIVE and have a CAREER on. Its for lowly skilled people in high school or college at the bottom of the labor force. If you are 40 years old working minimum wage you have issues that are much larger than the prez raising your hourly wage.

Why stop at $9/hr? Why not $20?$50?

This sounds like that "living wage" crap occupy was pushing. You realize if you raise minimum wage to $9/hr 2 things will happen:

A) a business will cut workers
B) a business will raise its prices

Their costs go up, YOUR costs go up. Their costs go up, your job suffers.

Im really not spewing GOP or conservative stuff, im being deadly serious. No one who actually understands how the economy works should agree with this.

[Vteckidd]

notihng?

[David88vert]

I have no disagreement with your assessment.

[.blank cd]

I don't really agree with raising min wage that much, it should be around where its at right now, but I don't see that much harm in raising it, economically speaking anyway.

[bu villain]

I agree that raising minimum wage will cause inflationary pressures. I'm not really sure how to determine what is an appropriate minimum wage. It seems to me the minimum wage is a balance between raising costs/prices for business (and therefor consumers) and ensuring people aren't taking advantage of because of their circumstances. What are your thoughts on what the minimum wage should be Vteck? and how did you arrive at that?

[.blank cd]

Can someone explain inflationary pressure due to the raise of min wage? This doesn't affect everyone, just people working menial jobs. It's pretty obvious looking at the S&P500, businesses have the money to pay higher min wage, it seems like they just choose not to because they can. What do you think happens to the money they pay in increased wages? Does it go under a mattress somewhere? Foreign investments/savings overseas? Lol

"Paying someone minimum wage is like telling them 'I'd pay you less if I could, but the law won't allow me, and that's how I feel about you"
-Chris Rock

[David88vert]

Can someone explain inflationary pressure due to the raise of min wage? This doesn't affect everyone, just people working menial jobs. It's pretty obvious looking at the S&P500, businesses have the money to pay higher min wage, it seems like they just choose not to because they can. What do you think happens to the money they pay in increased wages? Does it go under a mattress somewhere? Foreign investments/savings overseas? Lol

"Paying someone minimum wage is like telling them 'I'd pay you less if I could, but the law won't allow me, and that's how I feel about you"
-Chris Rock

It really only affects small businesses or large one that employ multitudes of minimum wage personnel.

Small business owners would probably be impacted the most. Take a hypothetical business that pays minimum wage to it's 6 employees currently (typical retail store).

Georgia Minimum Wage Rates - $5.15/hr
(Applicable to employers of 6 or more employees)
The State law excludes from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act when the Federal rate is greater than the State rate.

GA's rate is lower than the Federal standard : Minimum Wage Laws in the States - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - U.S. Department of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm)

If the business owner is open Mon-Sat from 9am-6pm was paying the minimum to the 6 employees (rotating so that all get 40 hrs/wk), that is $1236/wk in pay. If the minimum went to $9/hr, then it would be $2160. That's a difference of $924 that would have to come from somewhere, and predictably, it would likely come from higher prices to consumers, which in turn, would generate additional sales tax revenue. Your dollar would not go as far in that scenario.
The other part is that the additional money in the paycheck to the lower income individuals tends to be spent, rather than saved, which would also generate additional sales tax revenue. As most of those making minimum wage do not usually have to pay out in income tax, it should not affect them that way.


A large corporation like Wal-Mart should be affected; however, with their vast resources, it shouldn't change much in the way of prices. You do have to remember though that a lot of low income people shop there, so any rise in prices would affect them disproportionately - but probably not too badly, and they could use the rise in pay.

Large corporations that employ skilled labor shouldn't see a change in minimum wage affect them at all.

Chris Rock's statement is very true in this case. It is sad, but it is true.

[Manny Naber]

More taxes.

gov. wins

[Vteckidd]

Because it would result in 5% of the hourly wages paid working force would see their wages increase, which would directly hurt those businesses who hire people that make minimum wage.
Restaurants, Best Buy, Walmart, Target, basically any place someone 25 an under works would see a $2/hr increase in wages.

have 50 employees? $2/hr for 40 hour a week employees=$ $16000 a month increase (CHECK MY MATH BLANK)

Its not just about the $9/hr employees, its about everyone above them as well. What happens to the guy making $10/hr when the 16 year old kid starts making $9 instead of $7.50? Well he has to get a raise too right? I mean if we are just arbitrarily handing out raises to make people "survive" why not do it for everyone?

As those lower end wages raise, laws of economics dictate that the curve will shift upward. Prices will rise because you jut added a $16k/month expense to the business at minimum. Thats if you keep everyone else salary the same. Minimum wage is there to protect people from child labor laws, and establish a minimum standard of living for a short period of time. It was NEVER meant to be a CAREER wage.

$1200/month is enough to live on in most areas when you are 16-25.

[.blank cd]

Because it would result in 5% of the hourly wages paid working force would see their wages increase, which would directly hurt those businesses who hire people that make minimum wage.
Restaurants, Best Buy, Walmart, Target, basically any place someone 25 an under works would see a $2/hr increase in wages.

have 50 employees? $2/hr for 40 hour a week employees=$ $16000 a month increase (CHECK MY MATH BLANK)

Its not just about the $9/hr employees, its about everyone above them as well. What happens to the guy making $10/hr when the 16 year old kid starts making $9 instead of $7.50? Well he has to get a raise too right? I mean if we are just arbitrarily handing out raises to make people "survive" why not do it for everyone?

As those lower end wages raise, laws of economics dictate that the curve will shift upward. Prices will rise because you jut added a $16k/month expense to the business at minimum. Thats if you keep everyone else salary the same. Minimum wage is there to protect people from child labor laws, and establish a minimum standard of living for a short period of time. It was NEVER meant to be a CAREER wage.If you're making $7/hr right now and barely getting by, and I give you $80 more a week, what are you going to do with that extra money? Save it? Or are you going to buy more groceries, food, frivolous shit. Guess what the people who make min wage sell? Groceries, food, frivolous shit.

As a business owner, your $16000/mo increase is coming right back to you in the form of increased sales.

If you are a small business turning a profit right now after EVERYONE is paid, and you can't afford to give everyone a raise, you're probably not doing so well as a business anyway OR you're paying yourself too much.

But what we're seeing is minimum wage going up, volumes of retail sales increasing, but prices of goods are increasing arbitrarily because they don't want to take the hit in the short run because it looks bad to shareholders.

This is why I don't agree with increasing the minimum wage at this point. It does nothing to affect the price of goods. It's more or less a feel-good measure.


$1200/month is enough to live on in most areas when you are 16-25Maybe if you're staying with your mom. There was a study somewhere, I can find it when I get home, that showed the work week hrs it took to afford standard living state by state. Nowhere were the # of hrs 40 or below, and I think the closest was about 50. Min wage jobs aren't supposed to be careers, but they are meant to survive. Not many people go to work for Walmart or McD's for fun.

[Sinfix_15]

Asking......

Couldnt raising min wage reduce some of the government benefits received by people making min wage and also increase tax revenue a small amount? Pass a small amount of that burden off to the employer, who will then ultimately pass it on to the consumer.

[Vteckidd]

Its called inflation, you are assuming the extra $80 a week is consistent with CURRENT price levels. Simple Econ 101 proves this theory wrong. Demand and supply curve will shift when outside forces increase prices or limit supply.

The extra cost the business incurs is directly passed onto the worker/consumer in the form of higher prices.

$7/hr might allow you to buy a $50 PS3 game. If the company making that PS3 game has to pay workers 2$/hr more, that game becomes $60, the result of the increased wage results in increased prices aka INFLATION.

Let me make it simpler:

Obama , instead of passing the Stimulus Bill, decides to just mail every family $500,000 in cash, merry xmas. Now, every person in america can go buy a z06 for $80k. you think chevy will keep the price of their Z06 at $80k? Absolutely not. They will raise prices on their goods to a new equilibrium.

If everyone made $100,000 a year you think a GTR would still cost $70K? Gallon of milk would cost $3?

[Echonova]

Its called inflation, you are assuming the extra $80 a week is consistent with CURRENT price levels. Simple Econ 101 proves this theory wrong. Demand and supply curve will shift when outside forces increase prices or limit supply.

The extra cost the business incurs is directly passed onto the worker/consumer in the form of higher prices.

$7/hr might allow you to buy a $50 PS3 game. If the company making that PS3 game has to pay workers 2$/hr more, that game becomes $60, the result of the increased wage results in increased prices aka INFLATION.

Let me make it simpler:

Obama , instead of passing the Stimulus Bill, decides to just mail every family $500,000 in cash, merry xmas. Now, every person in america can go buy a z06 for $80k. you think chevy will keep the price of their Z06 at $80k? Absolutely not. They will raise prices on their goods to a new equilibrium.

If everyone made $100,000 a year you think a GTR would still cost $70K? Gallon of milk would cost $3?Let's see what blank has to say about this...


Whatever you've got, I've read it, studied it. I know more than you.

YAHTZEE!!!!!!!

[-EnVus-]

Last I checked prices was not going down but up with the current wages anyways. So Let the government stop the market gouging and cost raise in living before they bitch. Then the idea of raising wages wouldn't have to be an issue. Way to many people are working just as hard today as 8 years ago just to pay more for the same stuff today. Companies like Walmart, McDonald's and many more make 5x the amount each hour then employe wages even if raised. As stated this will really only effect smaller business as if Obama cared about them anyways. If more money is payed to the people then its just going back into the products anyways. Just imagine if wages was still only $7hr then gas would still be $3-4gal and Cost of utilities and food will be on the rise.

[Humphrizzle]

If you're making $7/hr right now and barely getting by, and I give you $80 more a week, what are you going to do with that extra money? Save it? Or are you going to buy more groceries, food, frivolous shit. Guess what the people who make min wage sell? Groceries, food, frivolous shit.

As a business owner, your $16000/mo increase is coming right back to you in the form of increased sales.

If you are a small business turning a profit right now after EVERYONE is paid, and you can't afford to give everyone a raise, you're probably not doing so well as a business anyway OR you're paying yourself too much.

But what we're seeing is minimum wage going up, volumes of retail sales increasing, but prices of goods are increasing arbitrarily because they don't want to take the hit in the short run because it looks bad to shareholders.

This is why I don't agree with increasing the minimum wage at this point. It does nothing to affect the price of goods. It's more or less a feel-good measure.

Maybe if you're staying with your mom. There was a study somewhere, I can find it when I get home, that showed the work week hrs it took to afford standard living state by state. Nowhere were the # of hrs 40 or below, and I think the closest was about 50. Min wage jobs aren't supposed to be careers, but they are meant to survive. Not many people go to work for Walmart or McD's for fun.

everything I've ever read from you... I've disagreed with it.

[Elbow]

If you are a small business turning a profit right now after EVERYONE is paid, and you can't afford to give everyone a raise, you're probably not doing so well as a business anyway OR you're paying yourself too much.

Wow.

[Elbow]

...and holy crap minimum wage here is $5.15!?!? LOL Now I really feel bad for anyone who says they make minimum wage, you could make more begging for change.

[David88vert]

...and holy crap minimum wage here is $5.15!?!? LOL Now I really feel bad for anyone who says they make minimum wage, you could make more begging for change.

To be clear, I believe that the federal minimum wage takes precedent and the true minimum wage for individuals is $7.25/hr currently. I have not read anything on the minimum wage laws in quite a while, and I am only relying on memory here. Georgia has not maintained a compliance with the federal standard legally, but people should be paid the federal minimum - I think.

Also - the federal standard covers most, but not all industry positions, so technically both standards are possible in the state at the same time, but for different groups.

[Echonova]

^^^ Correct, you are paid the Fed min. Unless you are a "tipped employee"...In Georgia we have a special exemption for them, if you're a waitress/server you make $2.13/hr. So the next time you stiff a waitress I hope you feel bad about it.


Unless they were a really shitty server.

[WhiteAccord]

If you're making $7/hr right now and barely getting by, and I give you $80 more a week, what are you going to do with that extra money? Save it? Or are you going to buy more groceries, food, frivolous shit. Guess what the people who make min wage sell? Groceries, food, frivolous shit.

As a business owner, your $16000/mo increase is coming right back to you in the form of increased sales.

If you are a small business turning a profit right now after EVERYONE is paid, and you can't afford to give everyone a raise, you're probably not doing so well as a business anyway OR you're paying yourself too much.

But what we're seeing is minimum wage going up, volumes of retail sales increasing, but prices of goods are increasing arbitrarily because they don't want to take the hit in the short run because it looks bad to shareholders.

This is why I don't agree with increasing the minimum wage at this point. It does nothing to affect the price of goods. It's more or less a feel-good measure.

Maybe if you're staying with your mom. There was a study somewhere, I can find it when I get home, that showed the work week hrs it took to afford standard living state by state. Nowhere were the # of hrs 40 or below, and I think the closest was about 50. Min wage jobs aren't supposed to be careers, but they are meant to survive. Not many people go to work for Walmart or McD's for fun.

I really hope your kidding on your logic.... But then again we do have a dumbass black president. So I'm not surprised by this logic....

[David88vert]

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.8 million paid-hourly employees were paid the federal minimum wage of $7.25 in 2010. They are primarily 2 mostly equal groups.

49% are under 25. 62% of this group live in families with incomes two or more times the poverty level. 17% percent are below the poverty line.

51% are 25 or older. 29% live in poor families. 46% makes less than 1.5x the poverty level. 25% of the 46% voluntarily work part-time, and 34% are full-time full-year employees.

Only 21% of all minimum wage workers are family heads or spouses working full time, 31% are children, and 32% are adults enrolled in school. The popular belief that minimum wage workers are poor adults (25 or older), working full time and trying to raise a family is largely untrue. Less than 5% (4.7% in 2010) match that description.

All of this can be found by looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistic's Current Population Survey data.

In the federal minimum wage increase from $5.15 to $7.25, 16% of the workers who were expected to gain from it lived in poor households. In the previously discussed proposal to raise it to $9.50, 11% of the workers who would gain live in poor households. Of that 11%, 63% are second or third earners living in households with incomes twice the poverty line.

More interestingly, we should take look at what Governor Togiola Tulafono siad in sworn testimony before the Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs, House Committee on Natural Resources, on Sep 23, 2011:
"We are watching our economy burn down. We know what to do to stop it. We need to bring the aggressive wage costs decreed by the Federal Government under control... Our job market is being torched. Our businesses are being depressed. Our hope for growth has been driven away."
What he was discussing was, the impact of minimum wage increases on American Samoa. The US imposed between 2007 and 2009, and it turned out so bad that Obama signed into law a bill postponing the minimum wage increases scheduled for 2010 and 2011. Governor Togiola Tulafono came before Congress to try to stop the scheduled 2012 increase of $0.50.

Since it went so badly when they tried to raise the minimum wages that Obama took action to stop it, why is he pushing for it for the rest of the country now? Did he not learn from that experiment, or is he intentionally attempting to repeat the same effect?

[.blank cd]

everything I've ever read from you... I've disagreed with it.


I really hope your kidding on your logic.... But then again we do have a dumbass black president. So I'm not surprised by this logic....

I didnt expect either of you two to agree with me, your knowledge of economics is just short of what happens when you rub two pennies together, so my expectations for ya'll are pretty low to begin with. Next time, it would be wise to first audit one college-level econ class, THEN issue a rebuttal. I wish people would understand that theres more to economics than just that bullshit "checkbook theory" that circles around facebook.

[.blank cd]

Let me make it simpler:

Obama , instead of passing the Stimulus Bill, decides to just mail every family $500,000 in cash, merry xmas. Now, every person in america can go buy a z06 for $80k. you think chevy will keep the price of their Z06 at $80k? Absolutely not. They will raise prices on their goods to a new equilibrium.

If everyone made $100,000 a year you think a GTR would still cost $70K? Gallon of milk would cost $3?
Are you talking about injecting money, or a stimulus, at a system wide level? Cause thats not what Im talking about, Im confused. Youve got two different examples of inflation here...

[David88vert]

If you're making $7/hr right now and barely getting by, and I give you $80 more a week, what are you going to do with that extra money? Save it? Or are you going to buy more groceries, food, frivolous shit. Guess what the people who make min wage sell? Groceries, food, frivolous shit.

As a business owner, your $16000/mo increase is coming right back to you in the form of increased sales.

If you are a small business turning a profit right now after EVERYONE is paid, and you can't afford to give everyone a raise, you're probably not doing so well as a business anyway OR you're paying yourself too much.

But what we're seeing is minimum wage going up, volumes of retail sales increasing, but prices of goods are increasing arbitrarily because they don't want to take the hit in the short run because it looks bad to shareholders.

This is why I don't agree with increasing the minimum wage at this point. It does nothing to affect the price of goods. It's more or less a feel-good measure.

Maybe if you're staying with your mom. There was a study somewhere, I can find it when I get home, that showed the work week hrs it took to afford standard living state by state. Nowhere were the # of hrs 40 or below, and I think the closest was about 50. Min wage jobs aren't supposed to be careers, but they are meant to survive. Not many people go to work for Walmart or McD's for fun.

I'm not sure why people are disagreeing with blank's statements here. They aren't blatently wrong, if you read and see who he is talking about in each step.

The only industry that was actually tied to raising their prices when the minimum wage was raised were restaurants. 8 studies have been done since the last federal wage raise, and only restaurants were found to pass all of the cost on through higher prices to customers.

Additionally, nearly two-thirds of minimum wage workers move above that wage within one year, and full-time minimum wage workers see a first year raise is about 14 percent on average. This is in-line with what blank stated.

As someone who supports a full family, I agree that $1200/month is not enough. $1200/wk wouldn't cover my bills.

If you read his statement clearly, I'm not sure how you can say it is just flat wrong - it's not. He's not in favor of just raising the minimum wage without a reason, and he's right this time. Raising it is only a political move, just to feel good when mid-term elections come around.

[On_Her_Face]

I don't really agree with raising min wage that much, it should be around where its at right now, but I don't see that much harm in raising it, economically speaking anyway.

Minimum wage should not be raised. It's called minimum wage for a reason... the minimum amount of money for you to live. Water, milk, eggs, bread, and peanut butter. No god damn cell phones, no car, no gucci shoes, no watch, no hats, no this, no that. MINIMUM WAGE. If you work your ass off you get a raise because you have provided added value to your company. It is completely against economics i.e. demand and supply. If a work does not create any customer value then there is no way they should get $9 an hour. Prove your worth. This is what is wrong with America, I deserve this, I want an iPhone 18 that came out yesterday. I am just ranting at this point but there is some truth and value behind this post. Not directing this at blank but at America in general. People don't know what minimum age means. Some government accountant/finance personnel should figure out the bare needs for life and what it costs per month divide that by 160 and boom the correct minimum wage. If it's $9, which I doubt, then it should be $9.

Edit: Blank I saw where you posted that to live per month it's no where near 40 hours a week. Starting out 40 hours a week is not a full work week anymore. Times have changed, that is an obsolete number and we need to get off of it. In July at my job I will be starting at $50k+ and will be working 50-60 hours a week and then some depending on supply schedules, production, lines, etc etc. I will also be working weekends some. Business has changed and that is at every level from the ground up.

[.blank cd]

Minimum wage should not be raised. It's called minimum wage for a reason... the minimum amount of money for you to live. Water, milk, eggs, bread, and peanut butter. No god damn cell phones, no car, no gucci shoes, no watch, no hats, no this, no that. MINIMUM WAGE. If you work your ass off you get a raise because you have provided added value to your company. It is completely against economics i.e. demand and supply. If a work does not create any customer value then there is no way they should get $9 an hour. Prove your worth. This is what is wrong with America, I deserve this, I want an iPhone 18 that came out yesterday. I am just ranting at this point but there is some truth and value behind this post. Not directing this at blank but at America in general. People don't know what minimum age means. Some government accountant/finance personnel should figure out the bare needs for life and what it costs per month divide that by 160 and boom the correct minimum wage. If it's $9, which I doubt, then it should be $9.So what do you do when the price of food and gasoline goes up, and those people making min wage can't afford necessities anymore?

Food for thought: Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage was $10/hr back in the late 50s/early 60s.


Edit: Blank I saw where you posted that to live per month it's no where near 40 hours a week. Starting out 40 hours a week is not a full work week anymore. Times have changed, that is an obsolete number and we need to get off of it. In July at my job I will be starting at $50k+ and will be working 50-60 hours a week and then some depending on supply schedules, production, lines, etc etc. I will also be working weekends some. Business has changed and that is at every level from the ground up.The fact that Americans work the greatest total hrs of any developed nation is another thread entirely.

[Sinfix_15]

So what do you do when the price of food and gasoline goes up, and those people making min wage can't afford necessities anymore?

Food for thought: Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage was $10/hr back in the late 50s/early 60s.

The fact that Americans work the greatest total hrs of any developed nation is another thread entirely.

I could cut back a few hours if not for so many taxes and social programs.

you know.... all those things you support.

[.blank cd]

I could cut back a few hours if not for so many taxes and social programs.

you know.... all those things you support.

Hmmmm....

[Sinfix_15]

Hmmmm....

Theoretically.....

Is it good or bad for the safety net business to create an environment that doesnt need safety nets?

[On_Her_Face]

So what do you do when the price of food and gasoline goes up, and those people making min wage can't afford necessities anymore?

Food for thought: Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage was $10/hr back in the late 50s/early 60s.

The fact that Americans work the greatest total hrs of any developed nation is another thread entirely.

Gasoline should not be a factor for minimum wage. Live as close to your work, ride a bike, walk, run, use public transportation. A car is still a luxury, any car at that. I also posted for food, the bare minimum... milk, eggs, water, bread, peanut butter, etc. Ramen for God's sake. Work harder for luxuries.

People bitching saying minimum wage isn't enough, aren't living within their means. Nobody does this anymore. That is where the problem resides.

[Humphrizzle]

I didnt expect either of you two to agree with me, your knowledge of economics is just short of what happens when you rub two pennies together, so my expectations for ya'll are pretty low to begin with. Next time, it would be wise to first audit one college-level econ class, THEN around facebook.

You know nothing about me. You're the epitome of the worst kind of person. I feel like the only thing you do is find something to argue with. The things you say are so farfetched and asinine it's hard to believ you're serious.

[David88vert]

Gasoline should not be a factor for minimum wage. Live as close to your work, ride a bike, walk, run, use public transportation. A car is still a luxury, any car at that. I also posted for food, the bare minimum... milk, eggs, water, bread, peanut butter, etc. Ramen for God's sake. Work harder for luxuries.

People bitching saying minimum wage isn't enough, aren't living within their means. Nobody does this anymore. That is where the problem resides.

Breakdown how $1200/month can go far enough for a family of four. An apartment will run $600/month for a 2 bed room OTP. Since you wouldn't have a car, you will need to live near a bus/train line - that's $95/month for a 30-day pass (that's the cheapest option) - and we will assume that you can walk anywhere else. Your electric bill will likely run another $100/month on average, as will your gas bill also, but let's figure only $150/month average for the pair of them. You're down to $350 already. WIC and food stamps can cover most of the basics, but you will have some basic supplies that you will need, but let's guess that they aren't more than $50/month - you know, soap, towels, cleaning supplies, etc, that aren't covered. We'll also assume that no one ever gets sick and misses work, or needs medicine. No phone of course - oh, but wait, there are no more payphones - so how did you get the job in the first place, since they couldn't reach you to setup your initial interview?

[.blank cd]

You know nothing about me. You're the epitome of the worst kind of person. I feel like the only thing you do is find something to argue with. The things you say are so farfetched and asinine it's hard to believ you're serious.

Good. Ill still be the worst kind of person with more than two brain cells, and you'll still be the guy that doesn't know what happens, economically, when two pennies rub together. I'm not forcing you to believe anything I say at all, not a single fuck will be given, but I do ask that before you run your mouth again about shit that you don't understand, have a friend of yours slap you in the temple with a college level economics book. I'm not even sure if someone with as thick of a head as yours would learn anything using that method anyway. I'm sorry the concept of economics is so asinine and too far fetched for you to comprehend. That's a personal problem.

[bu villain]

Some government accountant/finance personnel should figure out the bare needs for life and what it costs per month divide that by 160 and boom the correct minimum wage. If it's $9, which I doubt, then it should be $9.

I don't understand why you are ranting about why we shouldn't raise it to $9/hr when in the quoted statement you concede that maybe it actually should be $9/hr. I think your thinking about how to determine the right minimum wage is on track though.

I also want to applaud David for actually doing some research on the numbers although what I really would like to see is the numbers that explain why $7.25/hr is more appropriate than $9/hr. It's hard to argue if the minimum wage should be higher or lower if we don't know why it's at the level it is now.

[Vteckidd]

Family of 4? Who the fuck is providing for a family of 4 at minimum wage?

If you're making minimum wage probably shouldn't be having 2 kids.

[Vteckidd]

The simple answer is prices are raising sure to the devaluation of our dollar because of our debt and interest rates.

Create jobs . Real jobs, and it solves everything. It doesn't bother you thatt Obama economic plan is to raise minimum wage and extend unemployment benefits ? That's it?

[David88vert]

Family of 4? Who the fuck is providing for a family of 4 at minimum wage?

If you're making minimum wage probably shouldn't be having 2 kids.

A lot of families lost their jobs in the downturn in the economy. Perhaps you missed the multitudes of articles on people that lost their IT jobs, and ended up working in fast food at minimum wage. They already had kids and lost their homes, so they had no chance but to rent.

[On_Her_Face]

I don't understand why you are ranting about why we shouldn't raise it to $9/hr when in the quoted statement you concede that maybe it actually should be $9/hr. I think your thinking about how to determine the right minimum wage is on track though.

I also want to applaud David for actually doing some research on the numbers although what I really would like to see is the numbers that explain why $7.25/hr is more appropriate than $9/hr. It's hard to argue if the minimum wage should be higher or lower if we don't know why it's at the level it is now.

Yes I don't have the real numbers but $9 an hour seems high to me as I run basic numbers. That's all I'm getting at. Also people try to live outside their means.

[BenjaminJunu]

Family of 4? Who the fuck is providing for a family of 4 at minimum wage?

If you're making minimum wage probably shouldn't be having 2 kids.

People get laid off and lose jobs all the time... Their kids don't just stop living. Instead of waiting around for a job that paid your previous salary; you take a job that pays minimum wage so that you can get by.

[Vteckidd]

I made $80k last year I'll make 20k this year. I'll survive. I lost my job I'm one of those IT people. But its TEMPORARY .

If you're in IT with any real expertise jobs are there. I chose to get my degree but I've turned down $45-55k a year jobs just to focus on school.

OK well fuck let's just give everyone who gets laid off free $50k/year jobs right? Why stop at $9 hr.

Let's just give everyone a free house and food and a car. Fuck it let's do it. No more poverty.

The argument you're making is ridiculous with all due respect.

[Vteckidd]

Let's just subsidize hard times so no one has to deal with it. Let's just subsidize failure. Let's pass a law that says you can't layoff anyone. Or fire anyone.

Yeah that'll work greaaat

[Vteckidd]

The guy with a family of 4 living in minimum wage should be OUTRAGED that Obamas plan to help him is to give him $2/hr more instead of creating an environment where he can get a job like he used to have.

[Elbow]

^^^ Correct, you are paid the Fed min. Unless you are a "tipped employee"...In Georgia we have a special exemption for them, if you're a waitress/server you make $2.13/hr. So the next time you stiff a waitress I hope you feel bad about it.


Unless they were a really shitty server.

The law is though to be paid $2.13 an hour, you must make at least minimum wage per hour from tips to cover the difference.

Ask me what kind of crap storm I went through with a BS business on that subject.

[Sinfix_15]

Let's just subsidize hard times so no one has to deal with it. Let's just subsidize failure. Let's pass a law that says you can't layoff anyone. Or fire anyone.

Yeah that'll work greaaat

The hardest thing to be in america is a financially responsible single person. There's no reward for responsible decisions. The more you do to try and get ahead, the more they chip away at you to take care of someone else. I chose not to have kids so that i could have more financial freedom. My money is taken away to support people who cant take care of their 2-3-4-5-6 kids. Having children is a luxury that you should be responsible for. If you cant afford to take care of children, then quit fucking.

I move closer to work to save money. People who dont work get section 8 housing.
I buy a cheaper cell phone service to save money. People who dont work get free cell phones.
I buy cheaper food to save money. People who dont work get food stamps.
I work extra hours to make more money. People who dont work are issued an allowance on a credit card.

Some people go through hard times at their own hand, the same way people can avoid hard times through responsible decisions. At what point did we just become entitled to a good life? My parents said "you can have anything you work for" not "you can have anything"

[Elbow]

Family of 4? Who the fuck is providing for a family of 4 at minimum wage?

If you're making minimum wage probably shouldn't be having 2 kids.

http://alexanderjustin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/hoodrat3.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vKd1_2GQ_qw/TH7JB-wQfjI/AAAAAAAABGo/ZgK7hh7HuoQ/s1600/White+Trash+IV+293.JPG


Oh crap my bad, they don't work at all.

[bu villain]

Yes I don't have the real numbers but $9 an hour seems high to me as I run basic numbers. That's all I'm getting at. Also people try to live outside their means.

All I'm saying is we need to run the numbers a little more thoroughly before we jump to conclusions. As you stated before, I agree we should base the minimum wage off a minimum living standard. If people choose to spend their money on non-essentials we can't stop them but that shouldn't factor into the minimum wage discussion anyways.


OK well fuck let's just give everyone who gets laid off free $50k/year jobs right? Why stop at $9 hr.

Let's just give everyone a free house and food and a car. Fuck it let's do it. No more poverty.

The argument you're making is ridiculous with all due respect.

I think it's ridiculous that raising minimum wage to $9/hr is analagous to giving everyone 50k, free food, and a free car. If you say it's cold in your house and I suggest you turn the thermostat up a couple degrees, will you respond with "Well fuck why not turn it up to 150 degrees!"?


The guy with a family of 4 living in minimum wage should be OUTRAGED that Obamas plan to help him is to give him $2/hr more instead of creating an environment where he can get a job like he used to have.

They are not mutually exclusive. Raising the minimum wage a couple dollars does not prevent economic growth in any serious way.


Having children is a luxury that you should be responsible for. If you cant afford to take care of children, then quit fucking.

Why do you assume everyone who has kids and is working a minimum wage job was in that position before they chose to have kids?


Some people go through hard times at their own hand, the same way people can avoid hard times through responsible decisions. At what point did we just become entitled to a good life? My parents said "you can have anything you work for" not "you can have anything"

You aren't entitled to a good life. You aren't even entitled to a minimum wage job. Even if you have a minimum wage job, I don't know if I would call $9/hr "the good life".

[Manny Naber]

We can't do anything about it. So who cares. Money makes life funner and more enjoyable for you and your loved ones. America gives you all the tools to make your own income.

Your life is what you make it. What more stuff? Figure out how to get it

I've been broke, been on food stamps and cash aid...I didn't like it lol.

[BanginJimmy]

If you are a small business turning a profit right now after EVERYONE is paid, and you can't afford to give everyone a raise, you're probably not doing so well as a business anyway OR you're paying yourself too much.

And here it is. If you are a business owner that pays minimum wage, the fed govt should step in and tell you how much you are allowed to make. This sounds like a great idea.

Family of 4? Who the fuck is providing for a family of 4 at minimum wage?



[QUOTE=David88vert;39490953]A lot of families lost their jobs in the downturn in the economy. Perhaps you missed the multitudes of articles on people that lost their IT jobs, and ended up working in fast food at minimum wage. They already had kids and lost their homes, so they had no chance but to rent.

Work a second job then. Maybe both parents should be working. Maybe sacrifices need to be made.


All I'm saying is we need to run the numbers a little more thoroughly before we jump to conclusions. As you stated before, I agree we should base the minimum wage off a minimum living standard. If people choose to spend their money on non-essentials we can't stop them but that shouldn't factor into the minimum wage discussion anyways.

Minimum wage needs to be set, at whatever and then tie it to the CPI. If the CPI rises, so does minimum wage. If it drops, so does minimum wage.

Walmart isnt going to be affected by this, we all know that. McDonalds and every other chain restaurant will be though.


Lastly, a couple people mentioned the rise in employers' costs due to minimum wages, they forgot 1 major factor in it. Their taxes will also rise dramaticly. In the example about the 16k rise in wages, the actual number is 17k because of the federal taxes. This does not account for unemployment insurance and other state taxes that are tied to payroll.

[.blank cd]

And here it is. If you are a business owner that pays minimum wage, the fed govt should step in and tell you how much you are allowed to make. This sounds like a great idea.We pay our employees more than min wage. I'd venture to say more small businesses than not pay their employees more than min wage.


Walmart isnt going to be affected by this, we all know that. McDonalds and every other chain restaurant will be though.LOL.

How do you think McDonalds will be affected by an increased minimum wage?



Lastly, a couple people mentioned the rise in employers' costs due to minimum wages, they forgot 1 major factor in it. Their taxes will also rise dramaticly. In the example about the 16k rise in wages, the actual number is 17k because of the federal taxes. This does not account for unemployment insurance and other state taxes that are tied to payroll.Employers taxes will rise dramatically? From a $1.75 raise? LOL. and this will affect mcDonalds how?

[Sinfix_15]

Why do you assume everyone who has kids and is working a minimum wage job was in that position before they chose to have kids?

Not my problem. Planning for the future is part of life. If i was going to have children, my financial situation would have to be pretty secure. If you're living week to week on a fixed income, you should consider the risk youre taking when you decide to have kids. Why should my income obtained from responsibility be given to those who are irresponsible. Your view on life is dependent on forcing independent people to be a part of it. Social programs would not exist without people who dont need social programs being forced to participate.




You aren't entitled to a good life. You aren't even entitled to a minimum wage job. Even if you have a minimum wage job, I don't know if I would call $9/hr "the good life".

I dont feel entitled to anything........ other than my own money that i earn. I dont need anything given to me. The only thing i need is less taken away from me. I dont want food stamps, welfare, section 8, social security or an Obama phone. I would rather do without.

[.blank cd]

or an Obama phone. I would rather do without.what is an Obama phone?

[Sinfix_15]

what is an Obama phone?

Do you correct your black friends when they call it an Obama phone too?

[.blank cd]

I don't know anyone else who calls it an Obama phone? Except people who don't know what it is.

[Sinfix_15]

I don't know anyone else who calls it an Obama phone? Except people who don't know what it is.

mmmhmmm...... anyways, that detail was irrelevant to the point. I dont want handouts, whatever theyre called.

[David88vert]

Work a second job then. Maybe both parents should be working. Maybe sacrifices need to be made.

I know of several families where both parents were working and making close to $100K - each. They had nice houses, cars, and only moderate debt. Then both parents lost their jobs within a couple of months of each other. Two parents working at McDonalds or similar do not make even close to half the income of even one parent. It's simply not possible for a family to survive. There was no option to sell their houses and downgrade, as no one could get loans to purchase the houses, and they were already underwater.

If you really want to understand the economic policies that allowed all of this to occur, I suggest that you watch "Inside Job" from Sony Pictures. It came out in 2010.

[David88vert]

I don't know anyone else who calls it an Obama phone? Except people who don't know what it is.

It really is called an Obama phone.

The Obama Phone | Free Government Cell Phone Program (http://obamaphone.net/)

[BanginJimmy]

We pay our employees more than min wage. I'd venture to say more small businesses than not pay their employees more than min wage.

Thats great, how exactly does this have something to do with what I posted?

LOL.


How do you think McDonalds will be affected by an increased minimum wage?

You dont think McD's franchisees pay their 16y/o first time employees minimum wage? You dont think that those increased costs are going to be passed onto the consumer?



Employers taxes will rise dramatically? From a $1.75 raise? LOL. and this will affect mcDonalds how?

Their payroll taxes are going to jump 24%. You dont think thats significant?

Lets make 3 assumptions to make this simple.
1. This particular McD's stays open 24/7/364.
2. On average, they have 5 employees on the clock at any 1 time. (probably a low number)
3. They pay all of their employees minimum wage.

That comes out to 43,680 man hours a year.
That equals $316,680 a year in wages and another $19,635 in federal payroll taxes.

At a $9.00 an hour minimum wage that same 43680 man hours will cost $393,120 in wages and another $24,375 in taxes.

This comes out to an extra $81,180 in labor costs for a single restaurant. How does that NOT affect the restaurant?

[BanginJimmy]

If you really want to understand the economic policies that allowed all of this to occur, I suggest that you watch "Inside Job" from Sony Pictures. It came out in 2010.


I know the basics of what happened, but to be honest, the more intricate pieces are beyond my education. If that movie explains them better I will take a look at it.

[.blank cd]

It really is called an Obama phone.

The Obama Phone | Free Government Cell Phone Program (http://obamaphone.net/)

Like I said, only people who don't know what it is call it an Obama phone. LOL.

[David88vert]

I know the basics of what happened, but to be honest, the more intricate pieces are beyond my education. If that movie explains them better I will take a look at it.

Its worth watching.

[.blank cd]

Thats great, how exactly does this have something to do with what I posted?

LOL.



You dont think McD's franchisees pay their 16y/o first time employees minimum wage? You dont think that those increased costs are going to be passed onto the consumer?




Their payroll taxes are going to jump 24%. You dont think thats significant?

Lets make 3 assumptions to make this simple.
1. This particular McD's stays open 24/7/364.
2. On average, they have 5 employees on the clock at any 1 time. (probably a low number)
3. They pay all of their employees minimum wage.

That comes out to 43,680 man hours a year.
That equals $316,680 a year in wages and another $19,635 in federal payroll taxes.

At a $9.00 an hour minimum wage that same 43680 man hours will cost $393,120 in wages and another $24,375 in taxes.

This comes out to an extra $81,180 in labor costs for a single restaurant. How does that NOT affect the restaurant?

Ummm, you do know that..

1. The average McDonalds franchise yearly profit (this is money after everyone is paid) Is around 2-3 million dollars.

2. Wages are tax deductible to the franchise

3. McDonalds is a multi billion dollar corporation

So how is only $86k in tax deductible wages and $5k in employee-paid payroll taxes significant to a multi-million dollar individual franchise again? Lol.

[David88vert]

Like I said, only people who don't know what it is call it an Obama phone. LOL.

If you get it through those people, they call it an Obama phone. No, it is not from the government.

The reality is that the USF provides the financial support for the Lifeline plan for low income families - and has since 1984. The FCC updated the plan in January 2012. No, it isn't from tax revenue.

[Sinfix_15]

Like I said, only people who don't know what it is call it an Obama phone. LOL.

urrrrrbody know minority got obama phone

[BanginJimmy]

Ummm, you do know that..

1. The average McDonalds franchise yearly profit (this is money after everyone is paid) Is around 2-3 million dollars.

So the people that took all the risks should just eat the cost? Why should they eat the costs and not the employees?



2. Wages are tax deductible to the franchise

Again, who cares what is and isnt tax deductible?



3. McDonalds is a multi billion dollar corporation

There earnt many franchisees that are making a billion a year. McD's Corporation doesnt own a single restaurant, just the rights.



So how is only $86k in tax deductible wages and $5k in employee-paid payroll taxes significant to a multi-million dollar individual franchise again? Lol.

employee paid? No, the extra 5k would be the employer side of it. You might want to do a little research and see exactly what payroll taxes are, and how they are paid.


The real question is, why do you think the owners should be paying more for the least important and most easily replaced members of the staff?

[bu villain]

Minimum wage needs to be set, at whatever and then tie it to the CPI. If the CPI rises, so does minimum wage. If it drops, so does minimum wage.

An absolutely reasonable suggestion. This would also prevent congress from having to debate the issue every few years. The only small issue is that CPI is not always the most reliable indicator but nothing is perfect.


Not my problem. Planning for the future is part of life. If i was going to have children, my financial situation would have to be pretty secure. If you're living week to week on a fixed income, you should consider the risk youre taking when you decide to have kids. Why should my income obtained from responsibility be given to those who are irresponsible. Your view on life is dependent on forcing independent people to be a part of it. Social programs would not exist without people who dont need social programs being forced to participate.

It's your problem because no matter how much you would like to be, you are not independent of society as a whole. If you leave the least capable people to fend for themselves, their children are likely to continue the poverty cycle and the welfare system will only grow. If you truly want to get rid of the welfare system, you should be advocating for early childhood education and all sorts of other social programs to give poor kids the best chance at becoming a net tax payer.

[Vteckidd]

I know of several families where both parents were working and making close to $100K - each. They had nice houses, cars, and only moderate debt. Then both parents lost their jobs within a couple of months of each other. Two parents working at McDonalds or similar do not make even close to half the income of even one parent. It's simply not possible for a family to survive. There was no option to sell their houses and downgrade, as no one could get loans to purchase the houses, and they were already underwater.

If you really want to understand the economic policies that allowed all of this to occur, I suggest that you watch "Inside Job" from Sony Pictures. It came out in 2010.

Thats life man, plain and simple. Dont take a mortgage you dont understand and cant payback, people lose jobs all the time. Ive been laid off, had friends laid off, lost money, made money, its life.

YOu dont subsidize bad times to keep people from pain. Pain breeds innovation, determination, drive, work ethic, etc.

Its a slippery slope to say "we will just pay everyone $9 an hour to solve the economic problem".

[Sinfix_15]

It's your problem because no matter how much you would like to be, you are not independent of society as a whole. If you leave the least capable people to fend for themselves, their children are likely to continue the poverty cycle and the welfare system will only grow. If you truly want to get rid of the welfare system, you should be advocating for early childhood education and all sorts of other social programs to give poor kids the best chance at becoming a net tax payer.

If you dont let people fend for themselves, they never learn how to fend for themselves. We will never get rid of the welfare system...... it's a lifestyle choice for many.

[On_Her_Face]

Ummm, you do know that..

1. The average McDonalds franchise yearly profit (this is money after everyone is paid) Is around 2-3 million dollars.

2. Wages are tax deductible to the franchise

3. McDonalds is a multi billion dollar corporation

So how is only $86k in tax deductible wages and $5k in employee-paid payroll taxes significant to a multi-million dollar individual franchise again? Lol.

BangingJimmy is on the right track however this is only part of the supply chain. This does not factor in anybody in the upstream. Such as people Loading/Unloading in the McD's regional DC's, above that the warehouses, and one step above that in the Factories. All of this does trickle down to the franchise and raises cost or lowers margin. I don't have all the right figures on their supply chain however it will make a noticeable difference to a company worth it's salt. Every company is trying to cut cost every year (a lot of goals are 5%) and if they can not make cuts in materials, transportation, buildings, etc then guess who gets cut first?

[.blank cd]

BangingJimmy is on the right track however this is only part of the supply chain. This does not factor in anybody in the upstream. Such as people Loading/Unloading in the McD's regional DC's, above that the warehouses, and one step above that in the Factories. All of this does trickle down to the franchise and raises cost or lowers margin. I don't have all the right figures on their supply chain however it will make a noticeable difference to a company worth it's salt. Every company is trying to cut cost every year (a lot of goals are 5%) and if they can not make cuts in materials, transportation, buildings, etc then guess who gets cut first?

Highly doubt anyone in the supply chain is making minimum wage. From experience with the supply chain, I know these people are making $30-80k.

[On_Her_Face]

Highly doubt anyone in the supply chain is making minimum wage. From experience with the supply chain, I know these people are making $30-80k.

In the supply chains I have worked there are people making close to minimum wage discussed in this thread. For example janitorial, pickers, machine workers, or assemblers. I know people in supply chain make less than the said $9 minimum. I have had internships in warehouses (as you say you have) and I will be working in Logistics/SCM making the range you commented. I was not referring to front line managers or higher nor dedicated truck drivers. There are people that will raise these costs due to an increase in minimum wage to $9 maybe not in the fields you have experienced. There is no way around saying that this won't raise costs.

The supply chain is anybody that provides value added...
Example:
Janitorial = making sure warehouse is safe, clean, and less products will be messed up as a result
Pickers = People who get orders together, unskilled labor.



Note to self, don't post in class.

[.blank cd]

In the supply chains I have worked there are people making close to minimum wage discussed in this thread. For example janitorial, pickers, machine workers, or assemblers. I know people in supply chain make less than the said $9 minimum. I have had internships in warehouses (as you say you have) and I will be working in Logistics/SCM making the range you commented. I was not referring to front line managers or higher nor dedicated truck drivers. There are people that will raise these costs due to an increase in minimum wage to $9 maybe not in the fields you have experienced. There is no way around saying that this won't raise costs.

The supply chain is anybody that provides value added...
Example:
Janitorial = making sure warehouse is safe, clean, and less products will be messed up as a result
Pickers = People who get orders together, unskilled labor.Question. What do you think happens to the economy when people who aren't making minimum wage (the vast majority of the working population) get performance-based/cost of living raises?

[On_Her_Face]

Question. What do you think happens to the economy when people who aren't making minimum wage (the vast majority of the working population) get performance-based/cost of living raises?

Then they are creating more value to the said company, so they are worth more i.e. higher pay. You don't set the bar high to begin with. You should start at the minimum wage, which is the minimum to live on. Like I have stated nobody lives in their means. Do I know exactly what the bottom bar should be set at? No. I do not believe that it is $9.

Also I have worked at places where if your hourly pay gets too high, guess what the company does? They let you go because you are not worth the amount of pay. They bring in new people (which does incur training costs) that are cheaper.

[.blank cd]

Then they are creating more value to the said company, so they are worth more i.e. higher pay.Someone getting a cost of living increase is worth more to the company, how? Do the lower people on the totem pole not deserve a cost of living increase?


You don't set the bar high to begin with. You should start at the minimum wage, which is the minimum to live on. Like I have stated nobody lives in their means. Do I know exactly what the bottom bar should be set at? No. I do not believe that it is $9.You think, for a company that brings in 100s of millions in profits, Paying your primary workforce $7/hr is too high of a bar, and that a $2 increase will break the threshold?

Could you find a case where a company went belly-up, when the minimum wage went from $5 to $7?

Maybe even a company whose seen a consistent net profit decrease since minimum wage went up to $7 until now, that is a direct result of the increased minimum wage?

The point I'm trying to make here is that, despite how you feel, data is showing that increasing the minimum wage isn't as big of a drag on the economy or a company as you might think it is.

[bu villain]

If you dont let people fend for themselves, they never learn how to fend for themselves. We will never get rid of the welfare system...... it's a lifestyle choice for many.

You make a very valid point but don't let your one good argument overshadow all the good arguments on the other side.

[On_Her_Face]

Someone getting a cost of living increase is worth more to the company, how? Do the lower people on the totem pole not deserve a cost of living increase?

You think, for a company that brings in 100s of millions in profits, Paying your primary workforce $7/hr is too high of a bar, and that a $2 increase will break the threshold?

Could you find a case where a company went belly-up, when the minimum wage went from $5 to $7?

Maybe even a company whose seen a consistent net profit decrease since minimum wage went up to $7 until now, that is a direct result of the increased minimum wage?

The point I'm trying to make here is that, despite how you feel, data is showing that increasing the minimum wage isn't as big of a drag on the economy or a company as you might think it is.


First you are skating around that the costs will go up. Second I haven't stated that this would make a company go "belly up". Third I think $9 is too high for minimum wage. People can live cheaper than this. If they have children or this or that. That is their own fault. Make good financial decisions. This includes family and luxuries.

You're questions are very general. Bottom line don't set minimum wage too high. Companies don't like raising cost and they will either cut employees, qualities, or raise their prices. There is no need for this when/if the minimum doesn't need to be raised. Note I never said any of this would make it the end of the world.

[.blank cd]

First you are skating around that the costs will go up.Um, how is that?


Third I think $9 is too high for minimum wage. People can live cheaper than this. If they have children or this or that. That is their own fault. Make good financial decisions. This includes family and luxuries.Youre not making a good case as to why min wage shouldn't go up, but you are making a pretty good case for why we should look into capping CEO salaries. Lol.


You're questions are very general.Seems pretty specific to me.


Bottom line don't set minimum wage too high.Still waiting on your case on why $9 is too high. I still haven't seen the data that supports that raising it to $9 will cause inflation. Is this what you feel would happen or is this something that has been tested with proven results? Last time I checked, raising it to $7 didn't cause inflation, so why is $9 the tipping point?

[On_Her_Face]

Um, how is that?

Youre not making a good case as to why min wage shouldn't go up, but you are making a pretty good case for why we should look into capping CEO salaries. Lol.

Seems pretty specific to me.

Still waiting on your case on why $9 is too high. I still haven't seen the data that supports that raising it to $9 will cause inflation. Is this what you feel would happen or is this something that has been tested with proven results? Last time I checked, raising it to $7 didn't cause inflation, so why is $9 the tipping point?

Just a side note in many cases it is not the CEO's salary that is the big problem is the bonus that they receive. If you read my post(s) I clearly state I feel it should not be $9. I have even stated if the government backs it up with proof then so be it. I'll clarify I feel that people can live cheaper than $9 per hour. I also haven't seen any data from you that says it should be $9. We are essentially on the same boat with no paddle. Raising minimum wage raises cost. I didn't mention inflation in one of my posts if I recall.

To sum it up, I feel $9 is too high for minimum. If that's the least amount of money that a person can live on then it is what it is. Raising minimum wage raises cost. Pretty clear, please don't put words in my mouth.

[BanginJimmy]

Youre not making a good case as to why min wage shouldn't go up, but you are making a pretty good case for why we should look into capping CEO salaries. Lol.


So you believe in an scaled back form of economic fascism? You think the govt should have input the contract negotiations between a private individual and a business?


BTW, people a whole lot smarter and more imaginative will simply find a way around a cap in salary. Whether it be an unregulated expense account, stock, property, company paid vacations. Whatever you can think of.


Any chance you know what the CEO of a multinational corporation that does nearly 500B a year in sales should be paid?

[Vteckidd]

Someone getting a cost of living increase is worth more to the company, how? Do the lower people on the totem pole not deserve a cost of living increase?

You think, for a company that brings in 100s of millions in profits, Paying your primary workforce $7/hr is too high of a bar, and that a $2 increase will break the threshold?

Could you find a case where a company went belly-up, when the minimum wage went from $5 to $7?

Maybe even a company whose seen a consistent net profit decrease since minimum wage went up to $7 until now, that is a direct result of the increased minimum wage?

The point I'm trying to make here is that, despite how you feel, data is showing that increasing the minimum wage isn't as big of a drag on the economy or a company as you might think it is.

Devils advocate

So you are admitting that very very few people are on minimum wage anyway, so the $2 a raise is not much. So, defacto, President Obama is basically pandering to a speck of people that dont really matter or mean much in the overall economy.

Its a political talking point, that solves pretty much nothing that the economy is facing right now.

Am i right?

[Vteckidd]

Still waiting on your case on why $9 is too high. I still haven't seen the data that supports that raising it to $9 will cause inflation. Is this what you feel would happen or is this something that has been tested with proven results? Last time I checked, raising it to $7 didn't cause inflation, so why is $9 the tipping point?

Its a ripple effect. It would hurt most small profit high volume businesses like mcdonalds or fast food places, or service jobs like janitorial services, lifeguarding, etc. Businesses that only operate on 8-15% margins it would severely hurt them.

The other businesses will be hurt when , as stated before, your $10/hr employee now, sees their $7/hr employee get a $2/hr raise because.................so we should expext everyone elses salary to increase proportionally =INFLATION.

If minimum wage was $50k a year, do you think milk would cost $4/gallon? buying power is congruent to dollar valuation. Minimum wage should go up because the market demands it to go up, not because Obama says it should.

businesses are SMARTER than government.

[.blank cd]

Devils advocate

So you are admitting that very very few people are on minimum wage anyway, so the $2 a raise is not much. So, defacto, President Obama is basically pandering to a speck of people that dont really matter or mean much in the overall economy.

Its a political talking point, that solves pretty much nothing that the economy is facing right now.

Am i right?

Yes. That's what I've been saying.

Worst case scenario is its a wash. The ones receiving the raise are spending in in the same places. Those places see marginally increased sales, the workers themselves feel more valuable, thus a marginal increase in productivity. No one really sees a net decrease in profitability with a min wage raise.

[David88vert]

CATO's Mark Wilson does not endorse the raising of minimum wage. Mark Wilson is a former deputy assistant secretary of the U.S. Department of Labor. He currently heads Applied Economic Strategies, LLC, and has more than 25 years of experience researching labor force economic issues.
The Negative Effects of Minimum Wage Laws | Cato Institute (http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/negative-effects-minimum-wage-laws)


Neither does James Dorn - Obama's Minimum Wage Hike: A Case of Zombie Economics | James A. Dorn | Cato Institute (http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/obamas-minimum-wage-hike-case-zombie-economics)

[.blank cd]

I'm interested in reading that when I get home.

[.blank cd]

http://thecontributor.com/40-americans-now-make-less-1968-minimum-wage

[David88vert]

40% of Americans Now Make Less Than 1968 Minimum Wage | The Contributor (http://thecontributor.com/40-americans-now-make-less-1968-minimum-wage)

Here's a couple of issues with that articel.

First, it's mainly a link to other articles that the author wanted to promote. Little was written by the author in a contributing way. The other articles should be separate talking points, so we will stick to his main arguement (pretty short). Here's a hint - he labeled it Hint, and stated it at the beginning.
"(Hint: it’s the 1 percent; this is one driver of the terrible income and wealth inequality.) "
This brings us to the second issue - his assumption that income and wealth inequality is terrible. Life is not fair, and people are not given equal portions of wealth when they are born, nor should their income growth be regulated. Specifically, the descendants of Sam Walton are singled out and attacked. Sam Walton took risks, and they paid off. he started off on a farm during the Depression and worked up to being rich. That is what this country is about.

Another issue is that the author puts forth the concept that productivity has increased solely due to workers who are paid minimum wage, and gives no report of workers who have created patents, technology, processes, that improve productivity. I can tell you from experience in the workforce that workers that improve the productivity of a company or industry do not stay at minimum wage. Thus, his promoted principle that minimum wage should be linked to productivity is ill-informed, at best.
His quote - "“If the minimum wage had risen in step with productivity growth [since 1968], it would be over $16.50 an hour today. That is higher than the hourly wages earned by 40 percent of men and half of women.” - does not address any of the productivity improvements gained through reseach and development of technology. The reason that I point this out is because the author, Dave Johnson, spent the majority of his career in IT - and not in economic policy.
"Dave Johnson is a fellow at at the Campaign for America's future, and has more than 20 years of technology industry experience including positions as CEO and VP of marketing. His earlier career included technical positions, including video game design at Atari and Imagic. And he was a pioneer in design and development of productivity and educational applications of personal computers. More recently he helped co-found a company developing desktop systems to validate carbon trading in the U.S."

[Echonova]

Here's a couple of issues with that articel.

First, it's mainly a link to other articles that the author wanted to promote. Little was written by the author in a contributing way. The other articles should be separate talking points, so we will stick to his main arguement (pretty short). Here's a hint - he labeled it Hint, and stated it at the beginning.
"(Hint: it’s the 1 percent; this is one driver of the terrible income and wealth inequality.) "
This brings us to the second issue - his assumption that income and wealth inequality is terrible. Life is not fair, and people are not given equal portions of wealth when they are born, nor should their income growth be regulated. Specifically, the descendants of Sam Walton are singled out and attacked. Sam Walton took risks, and they paid off. he started off on a farm during the Depression and worked up to being rich. That is what this country is about.

Another issue is that the author puts forth the concept that productivity has increased solely due to workers who are paid minimum wage, and gives no report of workers who have created patents, technology, processes, that improve productivity. I can tell you from experience in the workforce that workers that improve the productivity of a company or industry do not stay at minimum wage. Thus, his promoted principle that minimum wage should be linked to productivity is ill-informed, at best.
His quote - "“If the minimum wage had risen in step with productivity growth [since 1968], it would be over $16.50 an hour today. That is higher than the hourly wages earned by 40 percent of men and half of women.” - does not address any of the productivity improvements gained through reseach and development of technology. The reason that I point this out is because the author, Dave Johnson, spent the majority of his career in IT - and not in economic policy.
"Dave Johnson is a fellow at at the Campaign for America's future, and has more than 20 years of technology industry experience including positions as CEO and VP of marketing. His earlier career included technical positions, including video game design at Atari and Imagic. And he was a pioneer in design and development of productivity and educational applications of personal computers. More recently he helped co-found a company developing desktop systems to validate carbon trading in the U.S."Burnt y0 toast son!!!!

[bu villain]

I read both articles and they both make good points but are from completely different perspectives on what is important so they talk past eachother.

The CATO article argues that a minimum wage increase will lead to less jobs and that is probably true at least as an immediate effect. However, the fundamental purpose of minimum wage laws is not to promote economic or job growth. It is to ensure a full time worker can make enough to live on and to prevent exploitation of workers who need whatever money they can get. Further, it doesn't discuss secondary effects of how putting more money in the pockets of minimum wage earners will effect the economy in the long term. (Dislaimer: I didn't read the attached document so maybe they discuss more details there)

The Contributor article argues that wages should follow productivity gains. I don't see that as a given since technology can improve productivity while requiring less labor. It focuses a lot on how the middle class is dwindling and discusses some of the reasons why such as outsourcing but doesn't explain how raising the minimum wage would lead to a recoupling of wages to productivity or why they should be coupled in the first place.

[.blank cd]

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/285413-liberals-press-for-1010-minimum-wage-more-than-obama-requested

I also heard something about the CEO of Subway bitching about raising the minimum wage.

Cue the boycotts.