Get your...Obama Phones?

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In my continuing quest to cancel out the reverberation of the "conservative" echo chamber, Here's a little insight on exactly what an "Obama" phone really is...

The real story behind free 'Obama phones' - Video - Business News (http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2012/10/26/n-obama-phone.cnnmoney/index.html?iid=GM)

[C230K]

Where do I sign up to get my free obama phone?

[bitchface]

Where do I sign up to get my free obama phone?

Obama Phone (http://obamaphone.net)

[Sinfix_15]

In my continuing quest to cancel out the reverberation of the "conservative" echo chamber, Here's a little insight on exactly what an "Obama" phone really is...

The real story behind free 'Obama phones' - Video - Business News (http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2012/10/26/n-obama-phone.cnnmoney/index.html?iid=GM)

"actually the consumers are not forced to pay for it, the phone companies are, but they pass the bill on to the consumer"

The people in the video say "everybody needs a way to call 911"

The cheapest cell phone service is $30 a month. You do not have to have cell phone service for a cell phone to dial 911, pick up any cell phone anywhere, any time.... EVERY phone.... regardless of having service will dial 911.

Even assuming you did justify this program and explain it's cost, it's more about the simple perception of the avg Obama supporter. They support anything that even remotely looks like a handout. This video is typical propaganda as you say, you put a reasonable intelligent person in front of the camera and have them tell a slightly emotional story about how having a cell phone improves their life, well.... news flash... a cell phone improves everyone's life. That's why we all buy them. So does a car, so does a house, so does a stove, so does a fridge, so does AC, so do computers...... that's why we BUY all of these things. That woman's hairdo probably costed well over $100, but she cant buy her own cell phone.

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This video is typical propaganda as you say.Theres a clear difference between propaganda and informative journalism. This is the latter.

[Sinfix_15]

Theres a clear difference between propaganda and informative journalism. This is the latter.

We will never agree because we see the same world thru different colored glasses.

I see a phone as a luxury, something someone should work for and buy only if they can afford to buy it. You see these things as necessities that the government should provide.

I pointed out lies in your video and you ignored them.

The government doesnt make us pay for these phones.... no, but the video clearly states that the government charges the phone company and the phone company charges you in return... even shows it on your bill.

"Everyone should be able to dial 911" , you dont need phone service to dial 911..... every phone in existence will dial 911 whether it has service or not. A dead land line will dial 911.... a canceled cell phone will dial 911.

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We will never agree because we see the same world thru different colored glasses.

I see a phone as a luxury, something someone should work for and buy only if they can afford to buy it. You see these things as necessities that the government should provide.

I pointed out lies in your video and you ignored them.

The government doesnt make us pay for these phones.... no, but the video clearly states that the government charges the phone company and the phone company charges you in return... even shows it on your bill.

"Everyone should be able to dial 911" , you dont need phone service to dial 911..... every phone in existence will dial 911 whether it has service or not. A dead land line will dial 911.... a canceled cell phone will dial 911.

See. You didnt pay attention to the video at all. Lol. Not only do I not think government should pay for everyones cell phones, it says right there in the video that the government doesn't pay for it. Lol.

You pointed out exactly zero lies. Lol

[Sammich]

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/42/1335422562556.jpg

[Sinfix_15]

See. You didnt pay attention to the video at all. Lol. Not only do I not think government should pay for everyones cell phones, it says right there in the video that the government doesn't pay for it. Lol.

You pointed out exactly zero lies. Lol

Ok, so if the government charges the phone company to pay for this program......

and theoretically..... your phone bill looks like this....

" Phone service...........$30.97 "
" Taxes............. $3.10"
"We charge you this line right here because the government charges us........ $2.46"

Then technically....... in the eyes of a liberal, the government doesnt charge people and it's not a tax. 3:41 in the video they say how it's paid for.

yes.... this video is propaganda......

[Sinfix_15]

Blank, give me a reason that anyone should be provided with a free cell phone?

Also, if you dont mind.... give me a (hopefully) brief list of anything else you feel the government should provide when it comes to an individual's personal needs, excluding roads... firemen ect.

[Vteckidd]

In my continuing quest to cancel out the reverberation of the "conservative" echo chamber, Here's a little insight on exactly what an "Obama" phone really is...

The real story behind free 'Obama phones' - Video - Business News (http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2012/10/26/n-obama-phone.cnnmoney/index.html?iid=GM)

Its a program thats been around since the Reagan era. But the point of the video i posted was to show how some voters view entitlements. If you can find me a George BUsh supporter doing the same thing, i would condemn them as well

[Drummerboy]

I love sinfix more and more every day.

[Vteckidd]

Theres a clear difference between propaganda and informative journalism. This is the latter.

The video says shes an out of work Hairdresser. Maybe she should look at a different line of work then. I know mcdonalds is hiring, so is target, wal mart, etc.

How does her daughter call her if she gives her daughter the phone? They have enough $$ for a lan line but not a cell? Find that hard to believe.

The story is probably accurate in terms of the evolution of the program, but that doesnt mean it should be done.

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Its a program thats been around since the Reagan era. But the point of the video i posted was to show how some voters view entitlements. If you can find me a George BUsh supporter doing the same thing, i would condemn them as well

We could say the woman in the other obamaphone video is a little enthusiastic about taking advantage of a particular government subsidy program(funded primarily by corporations and individuals). Would you equally condemn 'conservatives' for being enthusiastic about taking advantage of a government subsidy program? I need to know the answer to this so I can show you the proper example.

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The video says shes an out of work Hairdresser. Maybe she should look at a different line of work then. I know mcdonalds is hiring, so is target, wal mart, etc.A lot of people do this professionally. My sister went through two years of school for hairdressing.


How does her daughter call her if she gives her daughter the phone? They have enough $$ for a land line but not a cell? Find that hard to believe.Maybe after all the bills are paid, a land line is all she can afford? If she cancels the land line and buys a cell phone, that's still only one line.


The story is probably accurate in terms of the evolution of the program, but that doesnt mean it should be done.The point of the story is to show the origin and evolution of the lifeline program, probably to dispel rumors that its some kind of free iPhone program enacted by Obama and purchased with tax dollars.

[Vteckidd]

We could say the woman in the other obamaphone video is a little enthusiastic about taking advantage of a particular government subsidy program(funded primarily by corporations and individuals). Would you equally condemn 'conservatives' for being enthusiastic about taking advantage of a government subsidy program? I need to know the answer to this so I can show you the proper example.

Absolutely. Show me an example. I can name a bunch of subsidies the GOP advocate that need to be removed.

Would you agree that a lot of the policies liberal advocate =giveaways to poor while conversely a lot of the GOP backed policies= giveaway to corp.

If we agree on that, then you should agree with the context of the video i posted. I wasnt characterizing all Obama voters as wanting free shit. I was showing what Romney meant by his 47% comment.

[Vteckidd]

A lot of people do this professionally. My sister went through two years of school for hairdressing.

Wasnt knocking hairdressing, was suggesting do whatever it takes. I made 80K last year, im making less than half that right now, i could sit around and complain its not fair. But I went out and got 2 jobs to keep myself from blowing all my savings away until i get hired in my field again. Sucks, but i gotta do it. Downsized a lot of stuff like buying 40 pairs of shoes a month or eating out all the time.

My point is for every person who needs a free cell phone, theres 10 who take advantage of the program. I see a well dressed lady with nice nails and clothes and i wonder why she needs a "govt phone".


Maybe after all the bills are paid, a land line is all she can afford? If she cancels the land line and buys a cell phone, that's still only one line.
Sounds like she needs to prioritize. Land Lines cost what? $10-15 a month still? Cell phone is a WANT, not a need.


The point of the story is to show the origin and evolution of the lifeline program, probably to dispel rumors that its some kind of free iPhone program enacted by Obama and purchased with tax dollars.
I agree with that

Id like to know who is marketing it as an OBAMAPHONE because there is a site linked to it. If its Obama Admin, then its something they are proud and pushing. I dont remembe a BUSHPHONE program

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My point is for every person who needs a free cell phone, theres 10 who take advantage of the program. I see a well dressed lady with nice nails and clothes and i wonder why she needs a "govt phone". What would you expect someone who needs a govt phone to look like? If I was out of a job and had to drop my cell phone coverage to buy food, if I'm out actively searching for a job, I'm still gonna look fresh as hell.

This brings up a point I was gonna make in another thread, but I was watching "The Hope and The Change" last night, an info-mentary perhaps, critical of the president, and they presented a bunch of dems and independents who were disenchanted by the president for whatever reason, an they were all complaining about how they're having to cut back on things so they could barely afford the necessities, an they were all set in nice houses with fancy dining rooms, with one--and sometimes two--flat screen TVs in the background.



Sounds like she needs to prioritize. Land Lines cost what? $10-15 a month still? Cell phone is a WANT, not a need.I think cell phones have replaced land lines as a need. An iPhone is a 'want'


Id like to know who is marketing it as an OBAMAPHONE because there is a site linked to it. If its Obama Admin, then its something they are proud and pushing. I dont remembe a BUSHPHONE programI don't remember a bush phone either. I think there are a lot of people looking (hard) for a reason to hate the president. His support for public assistance programs is a good place to find ammunition. I think that site linked above isnt made by the administration, but it's quite effective at what it was intended to do ;)

[Vteckidd]

What would you expect someone who needs a govt phone to look like? If I was out of a job and had to drop my cell phone coverage to buy food, if I'm out actively searching for a job, I'm still gonna look fresh as hell.

Arguing semantics sir. Im not trying to paint a picture of "THIS IS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE" im just making the point that if someone cant prioritize $30-40 a month for a phone, im not sure what else we can do to help them.

Theres probably elderly people , severely disabled that benefit from a program like this. But the woman in the video looks well kept, clean, well educated. I would audit her and say what is your income and your expenses. How can you not afford $30-40/month? It makes zero sense. Usually i have found in my life that if people are not able to afford $50-100 for something, they have MUCH bigger problems prioritizing.

I have friends all the time that complain about being "broke" and hate on me for having $200 basketball shoes, or hawks season tickets like im rich. The funny thing is when they find out they make more money than I do. I just budget extremely well. I dont eat out 4 times a day, or smoke $7 packs of cigarettes or drink 40 beers a week or go to bars all weekend. I make sacrifices.


This brings up a point I was gonna make in another thread, but I was watching "The Hope and The Change" last night, an info-mentary perhaps, critical of the president, and they presented a bunch of dems and independents who were disenchanted by the president for whatever reason, an they were all complaining about how they're having to cut back on things so they could barely afford the necessities, an they were all set in nice houses with fancy dining rooms, with one--and sometimes two--flat screen TVs in the background.
That happens, ID ask the same thing to them. WHat necessities? Like are you cutting back on food or are you having to put 87 octane in your car instead of 93?




I think cell phones have replaced land lines as a need. An iPhone is a 'want'

Phone is a phone. Jobs can call you on a land line as much as any other line. Cell phone is convenience , not a need IMO.


I don't remember a bush phone either. I think there are a lot of people looking (hard) for a reason to hate the president. His support for public assistance programs is a good place to find ammunition. I think that site linked above isnt made by the administration, but it's quite effective at what it was intended to do ;)

If i was Obama i would be pissed, i would be telling whoever owns that site to take it down it puts him in a bad light

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If i was Obama i would be pissed, i would be telling whoever owns that site to take it down it puts him in a bad light

Read the rest of it. If you look deeper than the surface, you'll see just how golden it is. I wish I came up with it to tell you the truth, and there needs to be more sites like this one

[Vteckidd]

What am i missing?

Obamaphone.net just sounds like its preaching that Obama gives away free phones, which clearly we have discussed isnt true.

[nelson9995]

A cellphone is not a priority? So breaking down in the middle of the road, or any emergency out of home makes a cellphone a luxury. Once you are out of home your landline is USELESS. come on guys
If a cellphone is a luxury, eating 4 times a day is also a luxury. You can survive eating noodles twice a day.

[Sinfix_15]

A cellphone is not a priority? So breaking down in the middle of the road, or any emergency out of home makes a cellphone a luxury. Once you are out of home your landline is USELESS. come on guys
If a cellphone is a luxury, eating 4 times a day is also a luxury. You can survive eating noodles twice a day.

Eating 4 times a day is a luxury. Driving a car is a luxury too.

You are part of the 47% Romney was talking about..... you feel entitled to these things that you should be responsible for obtaining on your own. I've done without a cell phone before in my life when i had to make difficult choices. I've cut my cable off, not ran my ac, not used the heater and i've lived on canned foods.....

you know why????

Because im a grown ass mother fucking man, that's why. It's my job to take care of myself and if i cant afford a cell phone, then i dont get one. So i could honestly give a fuck less if an out of work hairdresser with a $100+ weave doesnt have a cell phone. Get a job. It angers me that your dipshit retard of a president wants to redistribute the money that real americans get up and work for every day to these lazy free loaders.

[Sammich]

lol the ignorance remains resounding. that is all

[Sinfix_15]

lol the ignorance remains resounding. that is all

yep, with you blind liberals who think the government should take care of you. i tell you i work for what i have and dont want handouts and you call me ignorant. you are what's wrong with america. youre bred to think having someone else take care of you is normal. It's pathetic.

[Vteckidd]

A cellphone is not a priority? So breaking down in the middle of the road, or any emergency out of home makes a cellphone a luxury. Once you are out of home your landline is USELESS. come on guys
If a cellphone is a luxury, eating 4 times a day is also a luxury. You can survive eating noodles twice a day.

Its a luxury sorry. You missed my entire point.

If you can't budget 30-40$ a month, you have bigger problems.

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It angers me that your dipshit retard of a president wants to redistribute the money that real americans get up and work for every day to these lazy free loaders.So Regan is now our dipshit retard president that your angry at?

[Sinfix_15]

So Regan is now our dipshit retard president that your angry at?

You can take care of people in need without supporting free loaders. I would gladly give some of my paycheck so your grandmother could have a phone or food stamps to her survive, but you yourself.... if you need a phone, get off your ass and work for it.

[Sammich]

i know i wasnt a free loader when i was unemployed. i hustled like a bitch to make ends meet all the while still searching for a job. washed cars, helped do carpentry work, roofs, etc...i appreciated the assistance i got until i finally got back up on my own feet.

[Sinfix_15]

i know i wasnt a free loader when i was unemployed. i hustled like a bitch to make ends meet all the while still searching for a job. washed cars, helped do carpentry work, roofs, etc...i appreciated the assistance i got until i finally got back up on my own feet.

Yep, everyday i drive past the ghetto on my way to work, i see a bunch of people "hustling like a bitch, searching for a job, washing cars and doing carpentry work, roofs ect that appreciate the assistance theyre getting until they finally get back up on their own feet..."

oh wait..... no i dont, i see a bunch of people who sit on their porch and smoke weed all day who walk the street day and night. I personally know someone who was fired from their job at a tire shop for stealing a set of rims and then they start collecting $1000 for food stamps, couple months later the guy goes and buys a new motorcycle. Back when i was younger and worked at walmart there was a lady there who was on section 8 housing and collecting food stamps, she made more money than i did by pretty good margin. She shopped like a baller, always buying her kids the newest video games and tvs... she left the store with buggies full of stuff every day.

These programs support free loaders. People have been free loaders for so long that they feel entitled to this support. For every 1 person a social program helps, it probably gives 15 a free ride.

[Sammich]

so only people in the 'ghetto' do those things? people in every group do that same ignorant shit. just like there are people in those areas that get out the house/'ghetto' as you like to say and actually get out hustle and do whatever is necessary to pay the bills in the house, and i'm not talking selling drugs. EVERYONE is not a free loader that you are categorizing. there are people in those scenarios that actually do what they need to to keep their head above water. you seriously need to chill. and yes i do realize there are 'real freeloaders' but the amount of categorizing that you are doing is nonsense.

that's like me saying, every person who drives a harley is tatted from head to toe just drinks beers and causes bar fights and dont have a life outside of riding the hog.

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And all that is the presidents fault, how?

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that's like me saying, every person who drives a harley is tatted from head to toe just drinks beers and causes bar fights and dont have a life outside of riding the hog.and its somehow mitt Romneys fault and he's a retard for letting it happen and that's why I'm not voting for him

[Sammich]

i mean the overgeneralization is what always nullifies Sinfix's 'arguments'....there are bad parts of every neighborhood, race, job, career, food, etc...but you gona say 'i'm not eating any food ever in my life again because Taco Bell made me shit my insides out'

oh, ok that makes tons of sense.

like i've been saying from the outset, vote for who you gona vote for, but be reasonable w/ the shit you say. i get fed up w/ seeing the overhyping of Obama on twitter..people say #GOVOTE then put #TeamObama or some shit..i mean..you gona forcefeed your vote on somebody. let people make their decision...one thing that ticked me off was black people trying to pawn Stacey Dash off because she decided to vote for Romney...SO THE FUK WHAT?!?! She's voting for who she wants to vote for, she's not there slandering people or harping down people's throats because they want to vote for Obama. She took what she saw and made her decision, as far as i know she didnt make generalization. she wants to protect her money probably in a way Obama wouldn't have for her, seeing as though she's probably in the 1%. People need to let people live.

[Sinfix_15]

so only people in the 'ghetto' do those things? people in every group do that same ignorant shit. just like there are people in those areas that get out the house/'ghetto' as you like to say and actually get out hustle and do whatever is necessary to pay the bills in the house, and i'm not talking selling drugs. EVERYONE is not a free loader that you are categorizing. there are people in those scenarios that actually do what they need to to keep their head above water. you seriously need to chill. and yes i do realize there are 'real freeloaders' but the amount of categorizing that you are doing is nonsense.

that's like me saying, every person who drives a harley is tatted from head to toe just drinks beers and causes bar fights and dont have a life outside of riding the hog.


http://esask.uregina.ca/management/app/assets/img/enc2/selectedbig/51B5F444-1560-95DA-4320CE4AE3F787D0.jpg
Our country was founded by people who didnt eat if they didnt grow it. They crossed the united states on foot. Now we've evolved into a country where you feel sorry for someone who cant afford their own cell phone.

Did i say only people in the ghetto do those things? no.... i said i drive thru the ghetto every day and see it...... i see the same people sitting around doing nothing every day, same groups of people just sitting on their steps, sitting on their porches....

I'm sorry i dont detour thru trailer parks on my way to work..... most trailer parks are off the beaten path, while the city seems to have no problem putting the projects right square in the middle of the business district. So for that reason alone..... i drive thru the ghetto and witness the ghetto every day.

I personally know people..... white people... if that makes you feel better.... i'm talking about white people right now sammich, so you can stop being overly emotional and defensive and just listen to the point....

so these white people, with white skin... that are white..... have the mentality "why take this job making $250-300 a week when i can collect $275 from unemployment?" "why work this overtime, it will interfere with my food stamps"....

we're breeding free loaders.....

[Vteckidd]

i know i wasnt a free loader when i was unemployed. i hustled like a bitch to make ends meet all the while still searching for a job. washed cars, helped do carpentry work, roofs, etc...i appreciated the assistance i got until i finally got back up on my own feet.

:thumbup: and thats the way it should be.

But everyone who uses the program correctly (like you temporarily) there are tons who abuse it. The woman in the obamaphone video is proof of that. Shes advocating that Obama has given people with low income, disability, etc free stuff. When asked why she doesnt like Romney her answer is "HE SUCK".

Where is it in the constitution where it says that if you lose your job the govt gotta help you out? I mean newsflash, sometimes, rough times are just rough times. Cant afford a cell phone? Sorry. Cant afford a car? Sorry. Cant afford cable? Sorry.

If we always soften the blow for people and blow sunshine up their ass, it teaches them that there are no rough times they have to endure. Someone will always be there to save them.

[Vteckidd]

My buddy owns a pawn shop and i can 10000% testify that there are people , of all races, who are on welfare, foodstamps, but are pawning 60 Inch LED TVs, video game systems. IPHONE 5s, all kinds of shit that theres no way they should own on welfare. They game the system, they scrape by, but they are getting money for free

[Sinfix_15]

and its somehow mitt Romneys fault and he's a retard for letting it happen and that's why I'm not voting for him

Yeah, that evil rich guy Romney would probably make a mess of things. Him and his wife would probably get in the white house, increase the staff by 400, hire 50 new servants and go on 2 million dollar date nights. They would probably pay someone 100k to walk their dog. To make it even worse.... they'd probably have the nerve to live so lavish while running up trillion dollar deficits and sitting at 8% unemployment. Imagine how bad that would be.

Those damn Romneys!!!

[Sinfix_15]

My buddy owns a pawn shop and i can 10000% testify that there are people , of all races, who are on welfare, foodstamps, but are pawning 60 Inch LED TVs, video game systems. IPHONE 5s, all kinds of shit that theres no way they should own on welfare. They game the system, they scrape by, but they are getting money for free

Like i said..... i knew a lady at walmart.. nice lady, i was friends with her. She was on section 8 and food stamps.... her kids literally had every video game in the store.... she bought everything. It's good that she used the support to spend for her kids..... but it's simply not fair that my tax money goes to support someone living like this.

People dont want to believe the truth. social programs are broken.

[Sammich]

http://esask.uregina.ca/management/app/assets/img/enc2/selectedbig/51B5F444-1560-95DA-4320CE4AE3F787D0.jpg
Our country was founded by people who didnt eat if they didnt grow it. They crossed the united states on foot. Now we've evolved into a country where you feel sorry for someone who cant afford their own cell phone.

Did i say only people in the ghetto do those things? no.... i said i drive thru the ghetto every day and see it...... i see the same people sitting around doing nothing every day, same groups of people just sitting on their steps, sitting on their porches....

I'm sorry i dont detour thru trailer parks on my way to work..... most trailer parks are off the beaten path, while the city seems to have no problem putting the projects right square in the middle of the business district. So for that reason alone..... i drive thru the ghetto and witness the ghetto every day.

I personally know people..... white people... if that makes you feel better.... i'm talking about white people right now sammich, so you can stop being overly emotional and defensive and just listen to the point....

so these white people, with white skin... that are white..... have the mentality "why take this job making $250-300 a week when i can collect $275 from unemployment?" "why work this overtime, it will interfere with my food stamps"....

we're breeding free loaders.....

you see me bring up skin color? i didnt bring it up until you did. this entire country is a country of 'microwave society' if it dont happen quick enough they toss it, actually what they are doing w/ Obama, they arent seeing the 'change' he predicted during his initial campaign and ready to toss him out. they allowed bush w/ 2 terms w/ the ignorant shit he did, so w/ the ignorant shit you also claiming Obama's doing (i still have yet to see you point out anything the current president has done good/well/ok/great at) w/ just one term.

am i saying he's a fukin fantastic president? nope. but being a person that has been of a struggling family, father died when i was 6 and my mom worked a job she hated to support 3 kids, i know the struggle and at a point, to the people that actually need the assistance and can put it to good use, i see beneficial things out of Obama's 'plans' i know there are families that have had similiar situations as mine and probably worse that would benefit greatly.

YES there are mcassholes that use it unnecessarily when they are able to pay for their things if they learned how to budget, and there are ALWAYS, even under Romney, still going to be those people, the '47%' that will find the loophole and still suck the government dry. how will you stop those people? that's the people you want to target, not the ones who actually can use the government assistance to help benefit their family. You cant completely stop them, and unfortunately, one day, you're going to have to realize that and appreciate those who benefit from it opposed to those abusing the system. it's gona be here until the end of time, sorry if that sickens you to your stomach.


:thumbup: and thats the way it should be.

But everyone who uses the program correctly (like you temporarily) there are tons who abuse it. The woman in the obamaphone video is proof of that. Shes advocating that Obama has given people with low income, disability, etc free stuff. When asked why she doesnt like Romney her answer is "HE SUCK".

Where is it in the constitution where it says that if you lose your job the govt gotta help you out? I mean newsflash, sometimes, rough times are just rough times. Cant afford a cell phone? Sorry. Cant afford a car? Sorry. Cant afford cable? Sorry.

If we always soften the blow for people and blow sunshine up their ass, it teaches them that there are no rough times they have to endure. Someone will always be there to save them.

believe me, i feel you on that...when i was out of a job, there was ALOT!!!!!!! of things i couldnt do. hell when my car needed tires, i had to use my retirement from my job that laid me off in order to get new tires and do necessary maintenance on my car that needed to be done. but after that..what did i have? check to check of government assistance. it's hard to save when everything you get in the house is necessary and you cant save one dime. i've been through it, to the point where i almost let my lease lapse on my apt, i was just lucky enough to have landed a job RIGHT when that was going to happen.

but to what you're saying, yes, i personally hate the ones that either decide to vote for Obama or Romney and say their reason for not voting for one or the other is because 'he suck'...i'm sitting in my chair like, seriously? you dont have any concrete evidence in order to back your statement? you just going to go off the 'he suck' factor? that's ignorance i shun and hate. THAT'S all my arguments are ever about. people can reasonably be able to say, ok, i'm not voting for this person because such and such reason. that's cool, but just because 'he suck' and 'obama is that dude' <--- i read that and shook my head, that's ignorant.

[Sammich]

i think that's the most i ever wrote on IA in my life...WTF is happening to me...fuk yall, i hate yall because you suck

[Sinfix_15]

George Bush was a better president than Obama. Obama's good deeds are buried in a sea of mistakes. If Obama was anywhere remotely near his "predictions", he wouldnt be criticized so heavily. Obama is the worst president in american history. If he wasnt black, i dont think you and i would be disagreeing right now. That is my honest opinion.

[Sammich]

George Bush was a better president than Obama. Obama's good deeds are buried in a sea of mistakes. If Obama was anywhere remotely near his "predictions", he wouldnt be criticized so heavily. Obama is the worst president in american history. If he wasnt black, i dont think you and i would be disagreeing right now. That is my honest opinion.

IMO i see the US in the same situation as when Obama took office, it's not the 'black' thing...it's the Bush was a fukd up President and Clinton wasnt... Clinton > Obama > Bush <------------- and that's being real w/ my opinion...that same link you posted about 'Obama being the worst' w/ the numbers, it's like you totally didnt care about the numbers that Bush took down while he was in office. IJS, the numbers that Clinton put up, Bush took down. YES the numbers went lower w/ Obama, but i dont see shit continuously sinking either. i see it stabilizing. truthfully i THINK 2nd year in his 2nd term numbers will start to improve money wise. couple things i dont agree w/..money on 'green energy' and this paying for abortions...that's fuk shit

[Vteckidd]

IMO i see the US in the same situation as when Obama took office, it's not the 'black' thing...it's the Bush was a fukd up President and Clinton wasnt... Clinton > Obama > Bush <------------- and that's being real w/ my opinion...that same link you posted about 'Obama being the worst' w/ the numbers, it's like you totally didnt care about the numbers that Bush took down while he was in office. IJS, the numbers that Clinton put up, Bush took down. YES the numbers went lower w/ Obama, but i dont see shit continuously sinking either. i see it stabilizing. truthfully i THINK 2nd year in his 2nd term numbers will start to improve money wise. couple things i dont agree w/..money on 'green energy' and this paying for abortions...that's fuk shit

Clinton>Bush>Obama in my book simply. Not trying to change your opinion but

What did Bush specifically do wrong that you find so terrible? No one was complaining about jobs under bush until the last 2 months in office (which i have stipulated he was 50% at fault, remember Democrats had COMPLETE control of congress. They passed legislation that lead to the financial collapse, Bush went along with it).

All presidents have negatives, Clinton slashed defense and we got 9/11 as a result, Bush spent way too much, expanded govt, and turned a blind eye to the financial crisis brewing, Obama has done little to nothing to fix the economy.

[Sinfix_15]

IMO i see the US in the same situation as when Obama took office, it's not the 'black' thing...it's the Bush was a fukd up President and Clinton wasnt... Clinton > Obama > Bush <------------- and that's being real w/ my opinion...that same link you posted about 'Obama being the worst' w/ the numbers, it's like you totally didnt care about the numbers that Bush took down while he was in office. IJS, the numbers that Clinton put up, Bush took down. YES the numbers went lower w/ Obama, but i dont see shit continuously sinking either. i see it stabilizing. truthfully i THINK 2nd year in his 2nd term numbers will start to improve money wise. couple things i dont agree w/..money on 'green energy' and this paying for abortions...that's fuk shit


yeah.... it's "stabilizing" at a trillion dollars........................................... ..........................

Bush had an avg deficit of 266b, even if you add up the entire 4 years or surplus from Clinton and add that as negative to Bush, it's about 1/2 of Obama's year 1 deficit that hes maintained for 4 years.....

Obama's numbers are not "kinda bad"..... theyre historically fucking unbelievably bad..... If Bill Clinton was the New England Patriots, George Bush is the Tennessee Titans and Obama is the Tennessee Volunteers.

[Sammich]

Clinton>Bush>Obama in my book simply. Not trying to change your opinion but

What did Bush specifically do wrong that you find so terrible? No one was complaining about jobs under bush until the last 2 months in office (which i have stipulated he was 50% at fault, remember Democrats had COMPLETE control of congress. They passed legislation that lead to the financial collapse, Bush went along with it).

All presidents have negatives, Clinton slashed defense and we got 9/11 as a result, Bush spent way too much, expanded govt, and turned a blind eye to the financial crisis brewing, Obama has done little to nothing to fix the economy.

i can feel what you saying...Obama hasnt fixed the economy, i think he's stabilized it. like i said in my previous post i think he'd turn numbers around in the 2nd year of his 2nd term.

as i mentioned before i dont follow politics, as this is the first time ever, this year, i've even posted in the political section because both sides of voting have disgusted me..so i'm here. but w/ that said, i dont remember specifics about Bush's terms, i just felt he didnt do well what you said could be true and if so, well, he wasnt AS bad, but like any other president there are things he coulda done better

[Sammich]

yeah.... it's "stabilizing" at a trillion dollars........................................... ..........................

Bush had an avg deficit of 266b, even if you add up the entire 4 years or surplus from Clinton and add that as negative to Bush, it's about 1/2 of Obama's year 1 deficit that hes maintained for 4 years.....

Obama's numbers are not "kinda bad"..... theyre historically fucking unbelievably bad..... If Bill Clinton was the New England Patriots, George Bush is the Tennessee Titans and Obama is the Tennessee Volunteers.

soooooo you're negating the surplus bush took, 'eliminated' and went help assist the country in debt?

[Sinfix_15]

soooooo you're negating the surplus bush took, 'eliminated' and went help assist the country in debt?

I'm saying even if you bend over and accept any possible negativity you could possibly blame on Bush..... it's still not anywhere close to being as bad as Obama.

How can you say Obama is stabilizing when his deficits are still currently twice what the previous record deficit would be and Obamacare hasnt even kicked in yet.....

I will lose faith in humanity if Obama wins reelection. It will be proof that our election system is a joke.

[Sammich]

you are one of the 'force feeding' ones i despise conversing with, but somehow i allow myself to keep being dragged into debate with you. yes I said stabilizing. am i forcing you to believe what i believe he has done? nope...are you? yep

[Vteckidd]

soooooo you're negating the surplus bush took, 'eliminated' and went help assist the country in debt?

The surplus wasnt really a surplus in reality. It really shows you how shitty both sides are and will lie to you.

Remember bush had 9/11 9 months into office, that would have wiped out any 200 billion dollar surplus. Ill give obama a pass on his first year as well considering what he had to deal with.

Did Bill Clinton Really Leave George Bush a Surplus? - CNN iReport (http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-183667)

The Clinton Surplus Myth - Craig Steiner - Townhall Finance Conservative Columnists and Financial Commentary (http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/craigsteiner/2011/08/22/the_clinton_surplus_myth/page/full/)

The Clinton surplus also wsa a false boom from the .com bubble that burst and bled into Bushs first term. So bush took over with a deep recession, and the largest terror attack on american soil in history. It wasnt all roses . He had slightly less to deal with than obama

[.blank cd]

I will lose faith in humanity if Obama wins reelection. It will be proof that our election system is a joke.the only thing that proves the election system is a joke is the president winning more electors than the popular vote, not because you don't agree with the president and that you dismiss factual information as "liberal"

[Sammich]

The surplus wasnt really a surplus in reality. It really shows you how shitty both sides are and will lie to you.

Remember bush had 9/11 9 months into office, that would have wiped out any 200 billion dollar surplus. Ill give obama a pass on his first year as well considering what he had to deal with.

Did Bill Clinton Really Leave George Bush a Surplus? - CNN iReport (http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-183667)

The Clinton Surplus Myth - Craig Steiner - Townhall Finance Conservative Columnists and Financial Commentary (http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/craigsteiner/2011/08/22/the_clinton_surplus_myth/page/full/)

The Clinton surplus also wsa a false boom from the .com bubble that burst and bled into Bushs first term. So bush took over with a deep recession, and the largest terror attack on american soil in history. It wasnt all roses . He had slightly less to deal with than obama

that's alot of verbage i'm sure behind those links *insert did not read gif* lol not being ignorant but calling face cuz i dont feel like reading all of what's involved. but i'm betting it's a worthy post that at least helps w/ what you're saying

[Sinfix_15]

the only thing that proves the election system is a joke is the president winning more electors than the popular vote, not because you don't agree with the president and that you dismiss factual information as "liberal"

This is why Obama is popular. Not because he has done anything for our country.
http://www.globalhiphopbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Beyonce-Jay-Z-Obama-Fundraiser-7.jpg

[Sinfix_15]

you are one of the 'force feeding' ones i despise conversing with, but somehow i allow myself to keep being dragged into debate with you. yes I said stabilizing. am i forcing you to believe what i believe he has done? nope...are you? yep

I just cant fathom how you can dismiss the obvious truths about Obama.

[Sammich]

i can't fathom how someone always only points out the negative. i guess we can save face and both be consumed w/ our unfathomability...

[.blank cd]

This is why Obama is popular. Not because he has done anything for our country.
http://www.globalhiphopbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Beyonce-Jay-Z-Obama-Fundraiser-7.jpg

Because no other presidents before Obama hung with celebrities. Right...

Bad argument after bad argument.

[Sinfix_15]

i can't fathom how someone always only points out the negative. i guess we can save face and both be consumed w/ our unfathomability...

Oh well, i guess i can have hope that not everyone is an Obama apologist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yeKSkb1bEqc#t=41s

[Sammich]

that's supposed to do what for me?

[.blank cd]

that's supposed to do what for me?

Make it a racial issue

[Sammich]

i thought so.

[Vteckidd]

that's alot of verbage i'm sure behind those links *insert did not read gif* lol not being ignorant but calling face cuz i dont feel like reading all of what's involved. but i'm betting it's a worthy post that at least helps w/ what you're saying

I really mean this respectfully, so please dont take it the wrong way:

If you arent willing to go read or learn the stats and numbers, then you cannot use that information in an argument. Ive brought up 2 points now and youve said "i dont really follow politics" or "im not going to go read all that" as a response to legitimate questions.

And im not just advocating myself to be RIGHT, im trying to have someone, of the opposite view point, read the same data, form an opinion, and challenge me back. I know you CARE, its obvious with the way you post. But if you want to advocate for a position, you better be able to back it up and understand/know the data. Thats all.

[Sammich]

I really mean this respectfully, so please dont take it the wrong way:

If you arent willing to go read or learn the stats and numbers, then you cannot use that information in an argument. Ive brought up 2 points now and youve said "i dont really follow politics" or "im not going to go read all that" as a response to legitimate questions.

And im not just advocating myself to be RIGHT, im trying to have someone, of the opposite view point, read the same data, form an opinion, and challenge me back. I know you CARE, its obvious with the way you post. But if you want to advocate for a position, you better be able to back it up and understand/know the data. Thats all.

i respect that, 100%, and your opinion you've derived from things like what you posted. i think high % of the time my arguments are against things that seem to have no sustenance in post like of what Sinfix posts up. i dont mind people forming their own opinion, willing to have a discussion about ALL factors.

[Vteckidd]

i respect that, 100%, and your opinion you've derived from things like what you posted. i think high % of the time my arguments are against things that seem to have no sustenance in post like of what Sinfix posts up. i dont mind people forming their own opinion, willing to have a discussion about ALL factors.

Im glad you didnt take that wrong! I like having civil discussions. There were times when i remember I could be pretty angry and argue by calling names and i just realized that doesnt accomplish anything.

Im sure BLank remembers HAHAHAHA

I know some of the turnoffs of Politics is the verbage, the complexity of the shit and lies from both sides, it turns people away. People like you who want to be involved, probably have a hard time really getting involved because its like being dropped in China and told to learn Mandarin. Theres things and areas of expertise that Blank knows more than i do so If i dont know how to argue him back, i spend about 20 minutes absorbing as much info as i can, because i KNOW he will pounce on me if i post the wrong thing :P

Im in no way telling you your opinion is wrong or that you need to come over to "my side", im just debating, interested in hearing other sides.

[Sammich]

Im glad you didnt take that wrong! I like having civil discussions. There were times when i remember I could be pretty angry and argue by calling names and i just realized that doesnt accomplish anything.

Im sure BLank remembers HAHAHAHA

I know some of the turnoffs of Politics is the verbage, the complexity of the shit and lies from both sides, it turns people away. People like you who want to be involved, probably have a hard time really getting involved because its like being dropped in China and told to learn Mandarin. Theres things and areas of expertise that Blank knows more than i do so If i dont know how to argue him back, i spend about 20 minutes absorbing as much info as i can, because i KNOW he will pounce on me if i post the wrong thing :P

Im in no way telling you your opinion is wrong or that you need to come over to "my side", im just debating, interested in hearing other sides.

that's all i'm saying. for people that get out and vote, the way that sin comes off, it doesnt help a person whose already decided to vote for Obama to try to decide to vote for Romney, if anything the ignorance can turn people off. a discussion will accomplish a helluva lot more.

[Vteckidd]

I think once he accepts that you cannot change anyones mind, all you can do is present your side, and let them make their own mind up. YOu have to accept the fact that they may disagree with you.

[nelson9995]

I agree with filtering social programs and not allow free loaders. I personally know more free loaders than people really needing help. I NEVER disagreed with this.

But, I know that if Romney had his way he would throw everyone out and say "fuck the programs you lazy fucks."
That is where I don't agree
I don't agree that leaving insurance privatized will help.
I'm tired of seeing cases where people are not covered for "pre-existing conditions"
You have cancer, insurance companies don't want you
Your old, they don't want you.
This is what Romney wants.
The Rich doing what they want and getting away with it.
It's like a gay person saying fuck straight people, dick is so much better than pussy when they've never had pussy in their life.
That's Romney to the people
I will know enjoy my night... sinfix can relate lol

[Vteckidd]

I agree with filtering social programs and not allow free loaders. I personally know more free loaders than people really needing help. I NEVER disagreed with this.

But, I know that if Romney had his way he would throw everyone out and say "fuck the programs you lazy fucks."
That is where I don't agree
I don't agree that leaving insurance privatized will help.
I'm tired of seeing cases where people are not covered for "pre-existing conditions"
You have cancer, insurance companies don't want you
Your old, they don't want you.
This is what Romney wants.
The Rich doing what they want and getting away with it.
It's like a gay person saying fuck straight people, dick is so much better than pussy when they've never had pussy in their life.
That's Romney to the people
I will know enjoy my night... sinfix can relate lol
Youre wrong on so many counts, its not even worth the effort to point it out. You really need to educate yourself on the issues before you post stuff like this that is just flagrantly false.

Obamacare doesnt do anything to address the things you brought up anyway, and Romney hasnt said anything you claim either.

[nelson9995]

Youre wrong on so many counts, its not even worth the effort to point it out. You really need to educate yourself on the issues before you post stuff like this that is just flagrantly false.

Obamacare doesnt do anything to address the things you brought up anyway, and Romney hasnt said anything you claim either.

WHAT? Romney doesn't want to get rid of Obamacare?
He doesn't want to keep insurance private?
come on man. YOU WILL NEVER AGREE with anything me, blankcd, sammich, or any one says man. Neither will sinfix. You consider everyone ignorant. Watch the second debate and tell me this wasn't addressed and that's not what came out of Romney's and Obama's mouth.

Raw Video: President defends 'Obamacare' during first Presidential debate against Romney - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnZGRHC11K0)
Mitt Romney and Barack Obama Debate Obamacare (The Patient Protection & Affordable Care Act) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpAx7e2WamU)

I have personally experienced "you were at the hospital 2 years ago for chest pain, therefore you have a preexisting condition which we will not cover"
THAT'S WHEN I SAID FUCK PRIVATE INSURANCE.
How are you going to tell me this is not happening!

[Vteckidd]

WHAT? Romney doesn't want to get rid of Obamacare?
He doesn't want to keep insurance private?
come on man. YOU WILL NEVER AGREE with anything me, blankcd, sammich, or any one says man. Neither will sinfix. You consider everyone ignorant. Watch the second debate and tell me this wasn't addressed and that's not what came out of Romney's and Obama's mouth.

The problem is you dont even understand the current system enough to act like Obamacare fixes ANYTHING.

ROmney wants to get rid of Obamacare, but wants to replace it with something better. WE dont know what that is yet.

Private insurance companies HAVE TO EXIST. HEALTHCARE IS A BUSINESS, PERIOD. DOCTORS NEED TO BE PAID, SO DO NURSES, etc. Whats the average cost of healthcare approaching in 2010? 2+ TRILLION DOLLARS. So how much tax revenue would you have to raise to be able to fund Govt healthcare. Ill let you tell me the answer. Heres a hint, .30 of every dollar you spend in taxes goes to defense, which operates around 500 billion.


I have personally experienced "you were at the hospital 2 years ago for chest pain, therefore you have a preexisting condition which we will not cover"
THAT'S WHEN I SAID FUCK PRIVATE INSURANCE.
How are you going to tell me this is not happening!
So? How will the same thing not happen under obamacare? We have already seen how the insurance companies are sidestepping laws and finding loopholes. Or, they will just go out of business.

You can have insurance now, they will just jack your rates up, like they have been doing.

Obamacare hasnt solved the problem at all, youre acting like the typical liberal who thinks the GOP wants to throw grandma over a cliff and the poor can die in the streets.

Its retarded.

I shouldnt have to tell you how to argue, your statements are just patently false. You are ripping Romney for shit hes NEVER SAID and plans hes NEVER advocated for.

[Vteckidd]

OF COURSE THEY DONT WANT YOU IF YOU HAVE CANCER. Its like insuring a person with 5 DUIs, THEY DONT WANT YOU, you drive the cost up for everyone.

The problem is 2 fold
1) If you dont have coverage, and THEN get cancer, why didnt you have coverage before?
2) If you have coverage and get cancer, they shouldnt be able to jack your rates.

Obamcare doesnt solve either of those issues. period.

Obamacare is designed to cut the Private Insurance companies out, and shift toward Govt run single payer system. Its bad for everyone.

[Sinfix_15]

i respect that, 100%, and your opinion you've derived from things like what you posted. i think high % of the time my arguments are against things that seem to have no sustenance in post like of what Sinfix posts up. i dont mind people forming their own opinion, willing to have a discussion about ALL factors.

Here is why this annoys me. Me and Vteckidd share a pretty like view on this topic. I've even posted a good bit of the exact same info. Kidd goes a bit further and articulates his point better than i do and he feeds it to you in a spoonful of icecream. I dont do that.... I'm an asshole. If i think you're acting stupid, i am going to tell you bluntly.

Most of the things i have criticized you for, you get upset at me,..... but then openly admit to doing them.

I say "most Obama supporters just support him blindly and have no clue about his policies"

you get mad, but then a few posts down the road you admit that you dont pay attention to policies and dont really know much about Obama or Romney.

So what is it exactly that makes you chose Obama??? Just a gut feeling? you like his name?....


You're constantly getting on me about stereotyping, but you're being a stereotype.... Pretty much every Obama supporter on this site is black.. and the only one that can tell you a reason why he supports Obama is blank. I disagree with nearly everything blank says.... i often get annoyed and hurl insults his way or intentionally try to piss him off... but i respect Blank himself.

[Elbow]

Youre wrong on so many counts, its not even worth the effort to point it out. You really need to educate yourself on the issues before you post stuff like this that is just flagrantly false.

Obamacare doesnt do anything to address the things you brought up anyway, and Romney hasnt said anything you claim either.

You sure?

I can get insurance now.

My mom, who had leukemia, would have been cut off by her insurance companies one million dollar cap, which is now gone.

[Vteckidd]

I can't sit here and name all 3054 things obamacare does.

There's some good things like preexisting conditions being able to get coverage, but all that will do is drive costs up for everyone else.

It doesn't fix any of the two things he blamed Romney for.

[Vteckidd]

Why did your mom have a cap?

I think the #1 thing with healthcare is honestly educatiog people on their policies. Its designed to be impossible to understand.

[Sammich]

QUICK QUESTION...they said, i dont remember where i heard this, Romney wants to eliminate 'Obamacare' and incorporate his own 'healthcare plan' that's damn near the same and that he used damn near the same care plan while he was governer of Mass...any truth to that?

[Vteckidd]

QUICK QUESTION...they said, i dont remember where i heard this, Romney wants to eliminate 'Obamacare' and incorporate his own 'healthcare plan' that's damn near the same and that he used damn near the same care plan while he was governer of Mass...any truth to that?

yes and no. Theres BIG differences in the plans.

Obamacare is a federal govt run healthcare system. The individual mandate is designed to make everyone have insurance, however, the fine for not carrying insurance in the first few years is drastically cheaper than the average HC policy. IE would you rather pay a $400 fine or $3000 for healthcare?

Secondly, by limiting caps, coverage, and telling the private insurance companies what they can charge or do, those companies will either A) Decide to close up B) Charge more for the premium if they are having to cover more on the back end. Eventually they will price themselves out of the market once the "exchanges" are up an running.

Romneys plan in MASS was a STATE run plan, and it only targeted IIRC like 8% of people that didnt have insurance. It wasnt a national plan, and there were huge differences in implementation.

Obamacare charges you for 10 years of taxes, but you dont get any benefits until 4 years in (10 years of payments, 6 years of coverage)

Imagine paying car insurance for 4 years and if you got in a wreck it didnt matter. Not very fair is it?

Lastly, Individual mandate is a GOP idea that was originally brought up years ago. In theory it sounds great. Require everyone to have insurance! but then you start looking at the problems that comes with it.

I firmly believe the only way to solve the healthcare issue is to do a few things:
1) Buy across state lines which encourages competition
2) Healthcare plans need to be tailored to what people need. offer catastrophic plans for young people, cancer plans for others, whatever.
3) Make people understand what their insurance purchases. Dont pay $5000 for an MRI when it really costs $500.
4) TORT REFORM

Bring costs down for hospitals and doctors, and premiums will lower as a result.

[Vteckidd]

FYI Im not for Obamacare at all, nor Romneys state run plan. I believe healthcare is best when it is a for profit business. Govt intervention will not solve it.

We must let the for profit system work, it will solve the problem. But we need policies in place that understand that.

[Elbow]

FYI Im not for Obamacare at all, nor Romneys state run plan. I believe healthcare is best when it is a for profit business. Govt intervention will not solve it.

We must let the for profit system work, it will solve the problem. But we need policies in place that understand that.

Insurance companies suck, they are no good. I like the government stepping in.

Plus wouldn't that cause issues for those involved (both doctors and patients) who don't have insurance and go to the ER for every sinus infection they get?

[Sammich]

Obamacare charges you for 10 years of taxes, but you dont get any benefits until 4 years in (10 years of payments, 6 years of coverage)

Imagine paying car insurance for 4 years and if you got in a wreck it didnt matter. Not very fair is it?

Lastly, Individual mandate is a GOP idea that was originally brought up years ago. In theory it sounds great. Require everyone to have insurance! but then you start looking at the problems that comes with it.

I firmly believe the only way to solve the healthcare issue is to do a few things:
1) Buy across state lines which encourages competition
2) Healthcare plans need to be tailored to what people need. offer catastrophic plans for young people, cancer plans for others, whatever.
3) Make people understand what their insurance purchases. Dont pay $5000 for an MRI when it really costs $500.
4) TORT REFORM

Bring costs down for hospitals and doctors, and premiums will lower as a result.

that is crazy for how long you pay and for when you get covered..not even jobs do that, at least not where i am...you get yoru 90 evaluation then you decide if you want insurance.

but at the end of the day if the hospitals and doctors didnt charge $5million for each procedure, the health system would be better off

[Vteckidd]

but at the end of the day if the hospitals and doctors didnt charge $5million for each procedure, the health system would be better off

theres a reason they charge an astronomical amount. We must lower those costs. That is my point. Obamacare doesnt address any of those reasons

[Vteckidd]

Insurance companies suck, they are no good. I like the government stepping in.

Insurance companies MUST exist, otherwise, it is unsustainable. They suck ? you wouldnt say that if you paid $10,000 in premiums and got a $250,000 operation. Youd say "jeez thank god i had insurance". Even your mom at 1 million dollars cap, im sure she hasnt paid 1 million in coverage. You realize youre paying them FAR LESS than they are paying out. Its why insurance exists.

Now i agree thats hard to hear if your mom has cancer and then she hits a cap, because shit, its your mom man. You dont want someone saying too bad so sad you out of money. So, i ask, WHY DID SHE HAVE A CAP?

I realize maybe some personal experience has warped or shaped your view, but they have to exist. They should be approved on, absolutely.


Plus wouldn't that cause issues for those involved (both doctors and patients) who don't have insurance and go to the ER for every sinus infection they get?

This is my point about making costs known. Why go to the ER for a sinus infection when you can go to a minute clinic for $79?

I had strep throat in march, i didnt go to the doctor because it would have cost me $40 in a copay, 2 hours of waiting, make an appt, etc. Instead, i went to a CVS minute clinic, paid $80, was in an out in 20 minutes with my antibiotics.

[Elbow]

Insurance companies MUST exist, otherwise, it is unsustainable. They suck ? you wouldnt say that if you paid $10,000 in premiums and got a $250,000 operation. Youd say "jeez thank god i had insurance". Even your mom at 1 million dollars cap, im sure she hasnt paid 1 million in coverage. You realize youre paying them FAR LESS than they are paying out. Its why insurance exists.

Now i agree thats hard to hear if your mom has cancer and then she hits a cap, because shit, its your mom man. You dont want someone saying too bad so sad you out of money. So, i ask, WHY DID SHE HAVE A CAP?

I realize maybe some personal experience has warped or shaped your view, but they have to exist. They should be approved on, absolutely.



This is my point about making costs known. Why go to the ER for a sinus infection when you can go to a minute clinic for $79?

I had strep throat in march, i didnt go to the doctor because it would have cost me $40 in a copay, 2 hours of waiting, make an appt, etc. Instead, i went to a CVS minute clinic, paid $80, was in an out in 20 minutes with my antibiotics.

I don't know why she had a cap, the cap doesn't exist anymore though. So there is no more cap but it previously existed before she reached it. Don't know the details, she was a school teacher so had insurance through work, then got cancer, got fired, and I know insurance tried to drop her but somehow that didn't happen. I really don't know the details. That in particular hasn't made me dislike insurance companies, as it never effected anything with her to make me build some hatred toward them. lol I've read many other stories though with not so good endings.

I take back saying insurance shouldn't exist, but some things should be adjusted. Especially the whole preexisting condition thing.

I agree going to the ER is stupid, half the people that do never pay anyway, which is why they don't go to any of those clinics. At least from what I've read and heard seems true. I didn't have health insurance for a couple of years because nobody would cover me, then the laws changed some and I was able to be put back on my parents, then lost it again when my mom got cancer and all that. I did get sick a few times without it and did have to go to the ER once, I paid though, and have been to a clinic too.

I support Obamacare for the most part, because I feel many Americans could benefit from it, but then again I don't like others having to be involved if it doesn't really effect them.

[Vteckidd]

I don't know why she had a cap, the cap doesn't exist anymore though. So there is no more cap but it previously existed before she reached it. Don't know the details, she was a school teacher so had insurance through work, then got cancer, got fired, and I know insurance tried to drop her but somehow that didn't happen. I really don't know the details. That in particular hasn't made me dislike insurance companies, as it never effected anything with her to make me build some hatred toward them. lol I've read many other stories though with not so good endings.

I take back saying insurance shouldn't exist, but some things should be adjusted. Especially the whole preexisting condition thing.

I agree going to the ER is stupid, half the people that do never pay anyway, which is why they don't go to any of those clinics. At least from what I've read and heard seems true. I didn't have health insurance for a couple of years because nobody would cover me, then the laws changed some and I was able to be put back on my parents, then lost it again when my mom got cancer and all that. I did get sick a few times without it and did have to go to the ER once, I paid though, and have been to a clinic too.

I support Obamacare for the most part, because I feel many Americans could benefit from it, but then again I don't like others having to be involved if it doesn't really effect them.

I dont agree with Obamacare , but i believe we should help and have options for people like you in your scenario and what happened to your mom is absolutely, 100%, WRONG.

I believe in finding some sort of middle ground where we make sure people have insurance, but we also dont let things like CAPS dictate who lives and who could possibly not.

[Sinfix_15]

Insurance companies suck, they are no good. I like the government stepping in.

Plus wouldn't that cause issues for those involved (both doctors and patients) who don't have insurance and go to the ER for every sinus infection they get?



"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Reagan

[Sammich]

theres a reason they charge an astronomical amount. We must lower those costs. That is my point. Obamacare doesnt address any of those reasons

reason = buy big ass houses and shit lol. i agree w/ getting to the root of the problem, but how do you propose to make them lower cost when it's going ot affect the doctor's livelihoods? (sp?)

[Vteckidd]

reason = buy big ass houses and shit lol. i agree w/ getting to the root of the problem, but how do you propose to make them lower cost when it's going ot affect the doctor's livelihoods? (sp?)

well think about why they get paid so much.

Doctors incur massive amounts of debt right? Why? Because we just dont want any numbnuts being a DR. we require 8-10 years of schooling, residencies that have most working 48 hour shifts, then, if you want to be a specialist you have to get into a program and do that for another 4-5 years. THEN you might be able to open your own practice if you can afford to.

My point is, after all they go through, they deserve to make large sums of money, because their job is very very very skilled, technical , and difficult. its like Pilots, we pay them a ton of money because we just dont want anyone flying a plane. Certain jobs demand more , can we agree on that? If working at mcdonalds flipping burgers paid $100k, id be the first one to sign up. But it doesnt, because anyone can do it and it requires little to no training at all, and barely common sense.

Capitalism operates on the notion of being the best =gets paid the most (in a nutshell). We attract the best doctors in the world because our systems sets that up and allows people to make vast sums of money for a service they provide. No one is stopping you from being a doctor either, you can go be one and "buy a big ass house" if you wanted. :)

Im going to start a new post on the insurance companies

[Vteckidd]

do you propose to make them lower cost when it's going ot affect the doctor's livelihoods? (sp?)

Here is the fundamental flaw with insurance, and the same problem with college tuition, there is no incentive to bring costs down.

Right now the negotiations go like this
Doctor charges $1000 for an MRI
Insurance says "we will pay you 80% ($800)"
Doctor can either accept the $800, or nothing.
Doctor accepts the $800 payment from insurance, then raises his MRI price to $1250 so he can get his 80% payment = to the price he wants to charge.

This goes on right now, they overinflate prices because insurance companies are inflated all over the place. Theres literally 1000 different kind of plans you can own.
Factor in malpractice insurance, equipment costs, etc and shit goes through the roof. Doctors make a ton of money, but they also have a ton of liability and overhead.

How do you solve this?

1) COMPETITION. MAKE people COMPETE for YOUR DOLLAR. If someone offers an MRI for $500 and 1 for $1000, what doyou think happens? We need them to compromise at $750, or the $1000 MRI to come down to $500 because people are choosing him overwhelmingly.

2) We do need to expand coverage. But it becomes how do you make people buy insurance ala individual mandate? Currently, since i lost my job, i carry catastrophic coverage only, its $63 a month. I can go to the doctor for colds, or stuff like that, but i break my leg its $10,000. Certainly better than the $100k it would cost without insurance. How do we make people carry that kind of coverage? I dont know.

Maybe institute a national sales tax that provides every CITIZEN with a form of minimum coverage so they have no choice. But thats a slippery slope. I really have no answers for that. Theres 1000 ways to do it.

3) TORT REFORM is the biggest. There are tons of lawsuits that need to be brought forth. Theres also an astronomical amount that people bring forward because they can and its easy money. The single biggest cost for Drs. is Mal Practice insurance. We need to find ways to limit frivolous lawsuits and throw them out

[BanginJimmy]

Here is the fundamental flaw with insurance, and the same problem with college tuition, there is no incentive to bring costs down.

Right now the negotiations go like this
Doctor charges $1000 for an MRI
Insurance says "we will pay you 80% ($800)"
Doctor can either accept the $800, or nothing.
Doctor accepts the $800 payment from insurance, then raises his MRI price to $1250 so he can get his 80% payment = to the price he wants to charge.



This is by far the biggest issue regarding health care costs and it is made 10x worse by medicare and medicaid. In your example, the insurance company is paying 1k for that MRI that 'costs' the doc $750 because medicare/medicaid is only paying $500.

This is why I think medicare/medicaid patients are going to have a very hard time finding docs in the future. To force govt costs down, they are going to start paying $400 for that MRI and private insurers arent going to kick in even more cash to cover the losses. I can almost see 2 completely separate health care systems in this country in 15 years, a very expensive, but very good private one that doesnt accept any form of payment except cash, and a low (out of pocket) cost low quality one run by the govt.


A pretty good article about this.

Primary Care Physicians Are An Endangered Species by Dr. David Lipschitz on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent (http://www.creators.com/health/david-lipschitz-lifelong-health/primary-care-physicians-are-an-endangered-species.html)