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View Full Version : FC 3sge Beams swap- no seriously.



deuszero
10-28-2012, 06:38 PM
Picked up my 1988(87?) Fc GXL awhile back. The car itself is in good shape but the motor was blown, this was not a problem as I already knew the 13b was coming out. Sorry rotary guys, I think the motor is pretty awesome, but I already had a perfectly good motor sitting around. I am probably gonna get lit up for this, but with the 13b out, a 3S-GE Beams blacktop is going in! Obviously, this is uncharted territory and I will post up dates as often as possible. Currently this is where I am (sorry pics are so large):

My shell:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/552565_4098312172132_909544765_n.jpghttp://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/548102_4098308972052_260864824_n.jpghttp://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/309304_4098310372087_305082288_n.jpg


Like I said, the motor was blown so the fist order of business was to remove the 13b.
Luckily I have some pretty good resources at my disposal so it was off to the shop with the shell!
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/394508_4310812244501_95921178_n.jpgThe previously mentioned red coolant in the air box.


http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/207083_4310815524583_760362032_n.jpgWith the motor out I started to clean the bay up. I pressure washed it, and removed alot the now useless clutter.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/387104_4310817164624_188884069_n.jpg
This whole area was a jumbled rats nest, so i tried to clean it up a bit.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/561582_4310813804540_973958421_n.jpg
The 13b, and the 3sge.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/558837_4310814804565_2035518733_n.jpgThe Beams after I removed the manifolds, and the accessories.

This is mostly where I am now, I will post test fit pics shortly. :yes:

deuszero
10-31-2012, 08:54 PM
So I know that the pic is a little blurry, but here is an initial test fit picture. Luckily everything seems to fit pretty well. Of course I will have to make some custom motor mounts for this to work. I have a plan in mind for that, more on that this weekend. Anyway, until Saturday here is a small (blurry) update.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/387677_4624423404584_491155697_n.jpg

PTCDC5
11-01-2012, 11:11 AM
Cool project. Normally I am a advocate of keeping the rotary, but being that it's a 13b and not a 13bt, I think it's cool to be trying something new.

deuszero
11-01-2012, 09:24 PM
Thank you. It's definitely different, I don't know that it's ever been done, or if it will work out for that matter. It should be a fairly good swap though.

deuszero
11-03-2012, 01:31 PM
Alright, started to mock up yesterday and ran into a few issues. The first issue is that in order to get the motor as low and as far back as possible, the oil pan has to be modded.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293870_4635869650733_546138586_n.jpg

The oil pan was hitting on the steering rack, and honestly the motor was to far forward by about three inches. To get around this the plan is cut the lower pan, step it for clearance and add more space to the right side of the pan. this is already a hammer head type pan and it is front sump. modding the upper pan to create a rear sump was a risky thing as pans for this motor are not exactly laying about. Along with stepping the pan the collector tube needs to be extended and repositioned to the left.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/523400_4635873730835_1745690069_n.jpg

So, after I removed the lower pan and worked up the above plan with one of the shops techs, I cut the pan as recommended and reinstalled it for test fit again. This cut gave me the couple of inches I was looking for, also it dropped the motor around two inches. Which brings us to our next issue: the hood will not clear. Sorry I don't have pictures of this as the motor was hanging from a hoist, lol. Our solution currently? We are thinking a cowl, as this will let the motor clear, send air to the intake that will be placed at the back, and also cause this is 'merica. More on that when we get to it.

Now for the motor mounts. It was getting late at the shop and I was getting tired. I didn't get a lot of pictures for this part, so I will get some for the next mount as I only completed one, (with A LOT of help from the shops tech). In order to keep the mounts as short and to require the least amount of fabbing, I reversed the mounts left and right , to change the way they faced. This change allowed us to still use the O.E. mount spaces and motor mounts for an FC with custom pedestals for the O.E. Beams mounts. Until I get more pics next week, here are some pics of the mounts being swapped.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/254345_4635863490579_490727885_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/548281_4635868290699_1207408156_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/548887_4635869090719_1834292812_n.jpg

l Gizzy l
11-03-2012, 01:43 PM
NICE work sir. In for final result.

and very very clean shell

ssonsk
11-05-2012, 04:35 AM
awwe snap

are you going to keep the stock look after you're done?

Boosted FC
11-05-2012, 09:33 AM
I am actually liking this. Props for going a diff route other than V8 road so many people take.

deuszero
11-05-2012, 10:39 AM
Thanks guys! ssonsk, my plans for the body are simple:a lip. maybe rear overfenders, and a roof spoiler. As far as the hood goes, I really wanted to run a turbo 2 hood, but the motor isn't going to allow for that.

silversol
11-05-2012, 01:07 PM
Just curious why that motor? For the same amount of work or less you could drop in a ls1?

deuszero
11-05-2012, 01:40 PM
It's simple really, I already had this motor. It was just kind of layin around, lol. Other than that, it was going to cost me less to drop this in and meet my power goals than to rebuild the 13b and get it where I wanted it.

Boosted FC
11-05-2012, 02:43 PM
Just curious why that motor? For the same amount of work or less you could drop in a ls1?

And then he would be no different than any other V8 Rx7 owner out there. I guess everyone should just stick with the "norm" and not try to venture out into untested waters anymore. Can't wait to see this finished.

Confuc1ous
11-05-2012, 02:47 PM
http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/967/a3f6375ce22646ee850328d29ba89c18.jpg

unCIVILized6
11-05-2012, 02:58 PM
I can appreciate this build

deuszero
11-25-2012, 05:03 PM
Hey all, hope you all had a good holiday. Haven't got a lot done with the holidays and all but I did want to post some pics of the early stages of the right side mount.

First things first, there were some hidden gems in the 13b I wanted for this build so I started digging for them. This was the first time I had ever really messed with a 13b and it took a while to get the intake manifold off. After a lot of digging around for hidden bolts I finally got it off and got to what I was after...
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/62493_4736559287911_807589543_n.jpg
the intake manifold off so I could get to these.....
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/487297_4736559967928_1921384057_n.jpg
O.E. 460's :) after I get these cleaned and mapped they will be VERY handy for my plans.

And now for the mount, keep in mind that it is in early stages and is not done. This is the pedestal for right side.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/395169_4736560767948_2019018411_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/67602_4736562247985_112296149_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561565_4736561527967_120672728_n.jpg

As always sorry the pics are so blurry and more will follow as I find time to get stuff done!

BenjaminJunu
12-06-2012, 09:39 AM
this car looks very familiar. DId you buy it from some guy named joe?

deuszero
12-11-2012, 06:22 AM
I honestly don't remember the guy's name off the top of my head. I do remember the three hour drive to go get the car though, lol.

oldcorolla
12-27-2012, 01:09 PM
This thread it full of WIN! Great start and props to you for going out of the box.

deuszero
02-11-2013, 08:08 PM
Hey hey, I know it's been awhile things where kinda hectic with holidays and all but I am back and have a few small up dates for now. First cosmetics, I got my s5 nose on today; the car was noseless for awhile. I finally found an s5 crash bar so it was time to switch it all over. First i removed a lot of useless junk, air lines that went nowhere, extra plastic bracing, air ducting etc.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/425984_10200351513966446_1232555187_n.jpg

Then i popped off the s4 crash bar and put the new one in. This was my first rodeo with the s4 to s5 swap so it took me a minute to piece together what all was needed, but eventually i got it all sorted out. This picture was from later in the evening when it was all done:
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/535028_10200351510846368_2035296001_n.jpg

Ok, couple of things. First, ignore the gaps, the hood isn't attached and i still need to square up the lights. Second, notice all those empty holes? Well, today I learned that S4 turn signals do not work with S5 bumpers, and on top of that my flash to pass lights where broken accidentally. Kinda bummed about these things, but I will find everything I need.
After I got the bumper on, i moved to the tail lights, a friend is trading me a set of S5 tails for a set of s4's I have since one of his is broken and i have an extra pair. Anyway i found a passenger s5 to replace the broken one at pull a part. after i put it on i found a small problem:

These are my factory units:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/379216_10200351510046348_875142831_n.jpg

And this is with the one i got put on:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/600480_10200351516446508_1049128510_n.jpg

Like I said my first swap rodeo. I didn't realize that 'vert tails where different from standard s5's. So i am right back where I started on that.

Well that's it for now, this weekend I am back to trying to squeeze that beams in that bay. I have a plan of attack, posts will come soon. Oh, and thanks for all the positive feedback guys!

deuszero
02-15-2013, 11:13 PM
So ever since we came up with our motor mount solution it's been bothering me how high and forward the motor sat. Unfortunately I didn't have much choice in the matter, the location of the steering rack dictated that either the motor sat high or that it would sit far forward. Honestly I didn't like either of these options but I went with trying to mount it high. Well, it's been nagging at me since I started, and today I decided to do something about it.

This is what a factory subframe and steering rack looks like on an FC:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/65233_10200380659975078_169501118_n.jpg

The first thing I did was gather some information. The oil pan is a front sump, hammer head type. There is a flat spot just behind the pan itself, and that would make for a great place to run a support beam and elimanate the section of beam that is blocking the motor from sitting properly.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/535380_10200380663375163_947937601_n.jpg

After some measurements and a couple of quick calculations, I knew what I needed to do. I obviously didn't want to start cutting away and risk chassis flex, so the smart thing to do was to add the new support beam first. For this I turned to D.O.M roll cage material.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/527902_10200380663215159_2067699884_n.jpg

After marking it up I started cutting. Now, I am no Master Fabricator or even an Amateur Fabricator, just a yahoo with a zizwheel lol. So it took a few minutes to get everything to flush up, but in the end I got it. The cut outs from earlier became top caps/ reinforcements.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/559689_10200380668175283_1253787527_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/31893_10200380666895251_742417934_n.jpg

After the bar was in and I didn't have to worry about flex, it was time to start cutting.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/580810_10200380672095381_709078468_n.jpg

With that bar out all that was left was to move the rack. These mods will allow the motor to sit lower and further back, allowing for better weight distribution than the old set up. To handle the rack mounting we decided to utilize what we cut out. Waste not want not and all that. First up was shaving it down, then bending the metal in and addind some flat stock to the rear for strength.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/73491_10200380668095281_1185967917_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/19599_10200380669975328_1724922074_n.jpg

After this was done, it was time to move the whole rack forward and down. To do this more thick flat stock was used as mounting plates. These pics are from early mock up. Currently this is where I am, everything in mock up as we started to run out of time. The rack is in, the geometry is fine, and the only hitch at the moment is that the shaft on the rack needs to be extended.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/149991_10200380674575443_1790561019_n.jpg
With the joints on this binds badly.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/66714_10200380675375463_1087302661_n.jpg

The square in the middle should cradle the oil pan, and the new cross bar should go neatly into the raised section of the pan allowing for maximum clearance. Next week the rack comes back off, gets converted to a non power unit and we extend the shaft. But before all that I need to drop the motor back in and see where we are:)

deuszero
03-07-2013, 08:42 PM
Ok, so I went to pull a apart and got an oil pan from a 5SFE. The blocks are mostly the same between the 5SFE and the 3SGE. The main differences are the cylinder bore, oil filter location and crank sensor. The 5S oil pan does not rely on an upper and lower set up either, nor is it a hammer head type. These things will help out a lot when I go to mount the motor in.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/486020_10200521681860537_2108238734_n.jpg

So this is the O.E set up. I removed the lower pan to get to 5 hidden screws inside the upper pan to get the upper pan off. The lower pan was the typical 10m but the ones inside where Alans. Unfortunately I rounded one. So I had to use a reverse drill bit extractor, which took a LOT of extra time.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/549987_10200521681980540_1884291370_n.jpg

After those came out, and all the external bolts where removed I went to take the pan off. After a good bit of prying, and fighting the best I could do was get the front half of the pan down a bit. The best thing to do was remove the transmission. Then we found the problem. Toyota hid two bolts for the oil pan under the flywheel inside the bell housing.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578047_10200521681740534_2075096973_n.jpg

After these where removed, the pan came right off. The clutch was damn near new, and the bottom end looked good. At this point I decided to put the motor on a stand.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/164476_10200521684820611_714607206_n.jpg

I put the new pan up and immediately i found a problem, the crank Position sensor placement will require a bit of modifying. No big deal.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/312905_10200521683300573_175087741_n.jpg

Next up are the Water Pump and timing belt.

here are some more pics of the pans off the motor.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/550546_10200521684180595_1049894683_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/550603_10200521684340599_1373313236_n.jpg

deuszero
03-17-2013, 08:11 PM
While the motor was on the stand I wanted to do as much preventative maintenance on it as possible. So I did a bit of research and found that 3S-GTE water pumps were interchangeable, and that the rear main seals and front crank seal were also available in America. Ideally I would like to have changed the camshaft seals and the hydraulic idler as well but those parts are not available here. I started with removing the timing belt, and then compared it to the 3S-GTE belt I had picked up in hopes that the belts where the same, unfortunately that was not the case, the Beams belt was a good two inches shorter. I was in a bit of a hurry so I didnt get as many pictures as I should have, but here is the front of the block:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/555114_10200580386248110_2060707651_n.jpg

I guess I will have to order a HKS or Toda timing belt, not really a fan of reusing stuff like that. After I got the belt off I started with the water pump. The first pic is the old pump on, the second and third are the O.E. pump next to the 3S-GTE pump.The fourth is the block with no pump.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/45497_10200580386328112_1717688168_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/205227_10200580387448140_1000103178_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/5458_10200580389008179_918875404_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/67093_10200580388968178_619760160_n.jpg

Everything actually looked pretty good, but since I had bought the water pump not to long after I bought the motor I put it on anyway. I used the O.E. gasket over the paperish one that came with the new pump because it was made of thick plastic and looked good. Of course I RTV'd it up, lol. Also I didn't realize I had forgot to take a pic of the pump installed.

Next I went to do the rear main seal, which was in a crappy spot on the stand but it wasn't too bad.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/579931_10200580390968228_1898906006_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/295584_10200580392528267_431663139_n.jpg

This was the first rear main I have ever done, and i was surprised at how easy it was.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/554990_10200580392448265_678997257_n.jpg
..............and with the new seal in..............
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/64119_10200580393248285_1978251484_n.jpg

So it was time I turned my attention to the front crank seal. In all honesty I did not get this done, because it looks like the oil pump has to be removed. I haven't done any research into oil pump swaps or if i can get a new gasket so I let it be for now. Based off of how good the water pump, rear main and bottom end look it will more than likely be fine.

Next up on my research list is an oil filter and dipstick relocation. These things are on the old hammer head upper pan on my motor. I know that the 3S-GTE and 5S-FE use the area in the picture below that has the odd white circle on it:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/156095_10200580384768073_15402380_n.jpg

Well, with all those things done I had a bit of time left over so I put my new Hawk pads on my daily to get it ready for the autox season lol:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/539016_10200580621333987_1853191155_n.jpg

deuszero
05-28-2013, 08:26 PM
It's been awhile I know, a lot of things have been going on and I haven't had much time to work with the car. I do have a couple of updates to post though, and I promise this build is still very much alive. First, while I had everything apart, I decided the factory intake manifold was too boring so cleaned it up, taped it up, and painted it up.

before:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/300560_10200952618153675_291478002_n.jpg

And after:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/575536_10200952603313304_1549893179_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/9882_10200952603273303_513595632_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/574666_10200952603233302_1276190204_n.jpg

Better don't ya think?
As always sorry for the image quality, still shooting with my phone, lol.

The oil pan has been a bit of a head ache, as the crank position sensor is located in a goofy place on the Beams' stock pan. I had picked up a 5S-FE pan awhile ago knowing I would have to modify it so this is where I am currently.

The first thing I had to do was created a template for the indentation for the CPS:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/944101_10200952615673613_464749006_n.jpg

To make this peice of super advanced cardboard technology, I just coated the Beams pan with oil, laid on the cardboard and cut it out accordingly. placing this over the 5S pan showed what needed to be done:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/400874_10200952616633637_773482685_n.jpg

I took some measurements to see how far down I needed to drop for the CAS and decided to build a "shelf" on the pan to accomidate the sensor:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/579268_10200952617273653_1981031270_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/298562_10200952617473658_1206445803_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/300594_10200952618113674_962348607_n.jpg

I know this will never win any awards for pretty fabrication, but the goal was to make damn sure it didn't leak. Besides, this will be hidden away behind the CPS at the bottom of the motor. This is as far as I have gotten on the pan currently. I still have to make a pick up tube, rework the Beams oil baffle to fit this pan and graft in a dip stick, so more on this to come for sure.

Lastly, I got something started to day that I am pretty excited about: the motor mounts. Mounting has been another major issue since the beginning of this. Our previous plans kept falling through as we ran into more and more complications and fab time kept increasing. So finally, last week I decide i had had enough. I hit up summit and got a set of Universal Small Block Chevy mounts. These are hinged so with some modifications to the faces, these will bolt up and weld in, plus they are not solid.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/954655_10200952605473358_1211324590_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/431838_10200952605353355_1259018205_n.jpg

The second plates you see behind them will be welded on and provide the rest of the mounting needed.

With these set up to be welded this week, hopefully the motor will be in soon, which will be a huge weight off of my shoulders. That is, until we start to straighten out the steering rack location, lol.

Until next time!

deuszero
06-16-2013, 05:50 PM
So I have been trying to clean the motor up as much as possible before it goes in, and the valve cover has been bothering me for awhile now. It has some sort of buildup on it that has been a real pain to remove, add that to all the small spaces I can't get to to clean you have a rather unattractive valve cover:
245243

I know that this will be hidden behind that sexy beams engine cover, but it will bother me if I don't do something about it. So, very carefully i took the valve cover off(it's not like I can just order a new gasket from the parts store). Luckily everything worked out well, I got the cover off with no harm to the gasket or the plug gaskets. Now for the hard part, do I paint or powder coat?

below are some pics of the naked head.
245245245246245247245248245249245244

deuszero
07-14-2013, 10:43 AM
Hey all, very small update, decided to get the valve cover powder coated and I gotta say it looks so much better now. I also did some poking around at a pullapart and found out how a 5SFE handles it's dipstick. sadly, I will not be able to do the same since the port is not on the 3SGE. In hindsight, it would have been worth the extra expense of a 5S block just to avoid some of this fabrication. Oh well, live and learn. On a side note, while I fully plan on working on this project as time and funds allow, I am also open to reasonable offers on the motor. I say this because I have had friends tell me that people are asking them about it so I just thought I'd throw that out there. PM me if interested, and like i said, I have every intention of continuing this build in the mean time.

Until later everyone!
246400

Cynical 1
03-13-2014, 10:51 PM
Updates?

deuszero
03-16-2014, 03:37 PM
Time, money and steering issues have brought this to a halt for now. Since the last posting I have replaced the oil pump and waterpump on the motor in order to accept a camry oil pan. This is a standard front sump set up instead of hammerhead sump the motor came with. It also allows me run a camry oil cooler. Other than that nothings really happened on this. As always everything is listed for sale, and I will keep working on it until it sales or is finished, whichever happens first lol.