Obamacare Upheld

[BanginJimmy]

Now the govt can force you to buy anything they want.

As soon as this takes effect I am canceling my insurance coverage. I will pay the fine and if I ever have an emergency, I will just start a policy and stick them with the bills.

Private insurance will be nearly dead by the '16 elections.
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[.blank cd]

Where was all the bitchin when car insurance was mandated? Lol.

Good riddance to private insurance.

[BanginJimmy]

Where was all the bitchin when car insurance was mandated? Lol.

Good riddance to private insurance.

Name a single state where car insurance is mandated.

That stupid car insurance thing has been so throughly debunked its not even laughable anymore.


Now everyone can partake is mediocre to poor health care. Except the rich who will simply pay cash.

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[civic-r11]

Wow.. Sad..

[nelson9995]

I'm for it. I've considered moving to Canada for this reason, and a few others. The crazy thing is, that they do better than us.

Jimmy- Cancel you car insurance, and get pulled over and we will see what happens. So yes, it may not be directly mandated, but indirectly, it is.

[BanginJimmy]

I'm for it. I've considered moving to Canada for this reason, and a few others. The crazy thing is, that they do better than us.

By what measure do they do better?

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[Sinfix_15]

I'm for it. I've considered moving to Canada for this reason, and a few others. The crazy thing is, that they do better than us.

do you know anyone from Canada? because i dont think ive ever heard anyone say they were "doing better".

Free isnt always a good thing. I gladly pay money to sit down and eat at olive garden.... when i could go to a soup kitchen and eat for free. Obama is making everyone eat at the soup kitchen.......

[nelson9995]

By what measure do they do better?

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Maybe not in the amount of money moved... But, their economy is much more stable.

[nelson9995]

do you know anyone from Canada? because i dont think ive ever heard anyone say they were "doing better".

Free isnt always a good thing. I gladly pay money to sit down and eat at olive garden.... when i could go to a soup kitchen and eat for free. Obama is making everyone eat at the soup kitchen.......

No he is not. He is helpin those that can't afford to eat, eat at a soup kitchen. The ones that can already afford steak, will keep eating steak.

Jimmy- Cancel you car insurance, and get pulled over and we will see what happens. So yes, it may not be directly mandated, but indirectly, it is.

[BanginJimmy]

Maybe not in the amount of money moved... But, their economy is much more stable.

We are talking about the quality of health care though not the economy.


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[.blank cd]

Name a single state where car insurance is mandated.

That stupid car insurance thing has been so throughly debunked its not even laughable anymore.Debunked? Have you driven through GA without car insurance lately?

[Sinfix_15]

No he is not. He is helpin those that can't afford to eat, eat at a soup kitchen. The ones that can already afford steak, will keep eating steak.

Jimmy- Cancel you car insurance, and get pulled over and we will see what happens. So yes, it may not be directly mandated, but indirectly, it is.

Glad that you have faith in your government to make decisions for you. I'd feel better about letting a crack head hold my car keys than trusting the government to take care of me.

[Browning151]

Where was all the bitchin when car insurance was mandated? Lol.

Good riddance to private insurance.



Jimmy- Cancel you car insurance, and get pulled over and we will see what happens. So yes, it may not be directly mandated, but indirectly, it is.

Good god. Ridiculous argument is ridiculous, and old. You have a choice not to drive a car on a public road, you don't have a choice not to live. Well I guess you do if you just really don't want to pay the tax and you just feel like offing yourself.






So the individual mandate is allowed to stand as a tax best I can tell from all the commotion so far. Didn't Obamacare originate in the Senate, and don't all tax bills have to originate in the House? So is this now a tax that originated in the Senate?

[BanginJimmy]

Debunked? Have you driven through GA without car insurance lately?

Yes I have driven and I do have insurance.

I made the choice to own a vehicle though. If I decided to sell my vehicles I would no longer be forced to have car insurance.

My brother in law does not own a personal vehicle so doesnt pay car insurance. He drives every day in a company owned vehicle though.


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[nelson9995]

So how do you guys think it's bad? why would quality decrease?

The way I see it, now ALL COMPANIES have to offer insurance which is a good thing.
We will have the same doctors, same schools, etc... so I don't understand why it would decrease.
And no, doctors will not quit or stop going to school.

[nelson9995]

Yes I have driven and I do have insurance.

I made the choice to own a vehicle though. If I decided to sell my vehicles I would no longer be forced to have car insurance.

My brother in law does not own a personal vehicle so doesnt pay car insurance. He drives every day in a company owned vehicle though.


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So if you don't want to pay insurance, Kill yourself. It's the equivalent of needing a car to survive in areas where there is no public trans. like where I live for example, and not having one.

You won't be forced to have it if you are dead.

[BanginJimmy]

So if you don't want to pay insurance, Kill yourself. It's the equivalent of needing a car to survive in areas where there is no public trans. like where I live for example, and not having one.

You won't be forced to have it if you are dead.

I see why you like this now. How could I possibly compete with this quality argument?

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[nelson9995]

I see why you like this now. How could I possibly compete with this quality argument?

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I didn't meant it to offend you, or literally telling you to kill yourself man. It was just an example. I could have worded it better.

[B18c1Turboed]

Why not create something for people that can't afford health insurance? Oh wait they have, so why try to regulate individual policies or companies?
You think we are in debt now, wait until all the people cancel their policies and buy a Goverment plan.

[nelson9995]

I'll be one of those... Oh wait, NVM I can't because even though I'm full time, make good money it's a good job and all, I don't have insurance because it is not offered to me.

There are times when I need to go for something I consider serious, and I don't because I can't afford to throw another bill on me, and on top of that, be overcharged for it.

[nelson9995]

Think of the hospitals that every year lose millions in unpaid bills. Now they will get their money.

[Browning151]

I'll be one of those... Oh wait, NVM I can't because even though I'm full time, make good money it's a good job and all, I don't have insurance because it is not offered to me.

There are times when I need to go for something I consider serious, and I don't because I can't afford to throw another debt on me.

So you don't have health insurance because your employer doesn't offer it? Last time I checked you can purchase insurance as an individual.

[Sinfix_15]

Why not create something for people that can't afford health insurance? Oh wait they have, so why try to regulate individual policies or companies?
You think we are in debt now, wait until all the people cancel their policies and buy a Goverment plan.


Freedom:
The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
Absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.

My lifetime's worth of medical bills would be less than $2000. I've paid cash for all of my ER visits. Why should i be forced to buy health insurance? The only answer..... to pay for everyone else. To pay for everyone's grandmother to go to the doctor 3 times a month, to pay for the guy who needs a knee replacement..... That's the only way something like this is affordable, if the people who dont use it have to pay for the people who use it a lot. I'd prefer to just take care of myself and let others do the same.

Is it the right thing to do? maybe... probably. Freedom doesnt mean the freedom to make only the decision you would make or to make the "right" decision. Bottom line is, i dont want the government making choices for me, i dont care if they make the right one or not. The largest bill i pay is taxes. My taxes are higher than any other living expense i have. I dont want to pay them to tell me how to live my life. How can you have one ounce of confidence in these idiots? They spend trillions of dollars and somewhere, in some office, there's government workers sitting around a table trying to decide if banning large drinks from mcdonalds is a good idea or a bad idea.......

we need to take power away from these morons, not continue to put our lives in their hands. The government should work for the people, not the other way around. you know who knows what the best healthcare for you is??? you. You know who knows what the best healthcare for me is? me.

Not the government.

[nelson9995]

So you don't have health insurance because your employer doesn't offer it? Last time I checked you can purchase insurance as an individual.

You might as well not have anything. They suck, and cover little to nothing.

[nelson9995]

Freedom:
The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.
Absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.

My lifetime's worth of medical bills would be less than $2000. I've paid cash for all of my ER visits. Why should i be forced to buy health insurance? The only answer..... to pay for everyone else. To pay for everyone's grandmother to go to the doctor 3 times a month, to pay for the guy who needs a knee replacement..... That's the only way something like this is affordable, if the people who dont use it have to pay for the people who use it a lot. I'd prefer to just take care of myself and let others do the same.

Is it the right thing to do? maybe... probably. Freedom doesnt mean the freedom to make only the decision you would make or to make the "right" decision. Bottom line is, i dont want the government making choices for me, i dont care if they make the right one or not. The largest bill i pay is taxes. My taxes are higher than any other living expense i have. I dont want to pay them to tell me how to live my life. How can you have one ounce of confidence in these idiots? They spend trillions of dollars and somewhere, in some office, there's government worker's sitting around a table trying to decide if banning large drinks from mcdonalds is a good idea or a bad idea.......

we need to take power away from these morons, not continue to put our lives in their hands. The government should work for the people, not the other way around.

I agree with you on some things. I barely go to the hospital, but recently, I've had some serious migranes. I called the hospital, first thing they'll do is a MRI which costs $3000. I can't afford that right now. So I've just been sucking it up.

It's like having car insurance. How many times do you wreck? Not often. But it's good to have it for when you do, because if you wreck and don't have it, you know what happens next.

[Browning151]

You might as well not have anything. They suck, and cover little to nothing.

<faceplam.jpg>

What do you think gov't run healthcare is going to look like? Lollipops and rainbows?


I agree with you on some things. I barely go to the hospital, but recently, I've had some serious migranes. I called the hospital, first thing they'll do is a MRI which costs $3000. I can't afford that right now. So I've just been sucking it up.

It's like having car insurance. How many times do you wreck? Not often. But it's good to have it for when you do, because if you wreck and don't have it, you know what happens next.

Who's fault is it that you don't have health insurance so that you can go get your migraines taken care of? Mine? Sinfix? BanginJimmy? Your next door neighbor? None of the above, go look in the mirror.

The car insurance shtick is an asinine comparison.

[nelson9995]

It's like the elderly that use to bitch about SS. They would say Social Security would drive the country down,... DON"T DO IT! BLAH BLAH BLAH. Now that they are retired, go to their home and take the check away and let's see how they feel about it.

The ones bitching about it will always be the ones getting affected by it. if it was to help you you'd be for it. That's why this is a topic that NOONE will ever agree on if they are already in 2 diff. boats.

I will almost guarantee that those saying I don't need health insurance...... were to develop cancer... they would change their mind when they receive the bill, unless they have money to blow.

[Browning151]

It's like the elderly that use to bitch about SS. They would say Social Security would drive the country down 40 years ago...

.....and they were right.


The ones bitching about it will always be the ones getting affected by it. if it was to help you you'd be for it. That's why this is a topic that NOONE will ever agree on if they are already in 2 diff. boats.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that believe wrong is wrong, whether it benefits them or not.

[nelson9995]

See how those people feel now? Ask any elderly that receives their check how they would feel if it was taken from them? You might get insulted lol.

But yeah, there are people that believe wrong is wrong no matter what. But, that number of people is very minimal, AND, it is not free. We are paying for it. We are getting taxed, and we would still pay a part of it.

[BanginJimmy]

I will comment further when I get home.

There are some simple facts to consider though.
1. Obamacare has no provisions that will bring costs down. Many that will cause costs to rise.

2. There is nothing in this that will keep quality at the same level it is now, several things that will cause quality to decrease.

3. Private insurance and employer insurance are dead as costs are going to skyrocket while revenue declines. It will be FAR cheaper for an individual to simply wait until they are sick to purchase a plan.


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[civic-r11]

The bottom line when power is of a man.. they will only do want they want.. government.. is about how many people can have your back.. what people are made about it is something they can't do anything about because the people have money,power and respect is the ones that run the world... and the people that are middle class bitch and get mad about things that they cant do anything about.. so sad.. they people are madd... when people cant do anything about it

[WhiteAccord]

See how those people feel now? Ask any elderly that receives their check how they would feel if it was taken from them? You might get insulted lol.

But yeah, there are people that believe wrong is wrong no matter what. But, that number of people is very minimal, AND, it is not free. We are paying for it. We are getting taxed, and we would still pay a part of it.

You mean the check that barely pays for their living cost and expenses? You mean the check that still requires the elderly to work? You do know w/ SS it is getting to a point where it can not sustain itself without more taxation... Hence this healthcare bill, Additional taxation on all, and in and on multiple levels.

[.blank cd]

The ones bitching about it are the rich republicans who already have insurance, and the pseudo-republican-conservatives who vote party line no matter what, even when it hurts them because "'Murica fuck yea damn liberals". Anyone who does have half a brain won't give a shit because it will benefit them or it won't.

In countries with socialized healthcare, everyone raves about it and talks about how much America's healthcare system sucks, which it does. No one complains about wait times or quality of care because it's a non issue. Everyone gets the same quality of care, rich or poor. "Oh I dont wanna pay for someone else's grandmas healthcare because wah wah wah". Get over yourself or move to another country. I would gladly pay extra taxes so that myself and all my friends and family get healthcare.

[nelson9995]

The ones bitching about it are the rich republicans who already have insurance, and the pseudo-republican-conservatives who vote party line no matter what, even when it hurts them because "'Murica fuck yea damn liberals". Anyone who does have half a brain won't give a shit because it will benefit them or it won't.

In countries with socialized healthcare, everyone raves about it and talks about how much America's healthcare system sucks, which it does. No one complains about wait times or quality of care because it's a non issue. Everyone gets the same quality of care, rich or poor. "Oh I dont wanna pay for someone else's grandmas healthcare because wah wah wah". Get over yourself or move to another country. I would gladly pay extra taxes so that myself and all my friends and family get healthcare.

I could not agree more. Took the words out my mouth.
Maybe I feel this way because I come from a country where you see what not having insurance does. In my country the rich do great, everyone else is struggling pretty bad. I personally see people dying all the time because they can't afford to go to a hospital. We have it easy in this country. We talk about how bad it is but in reality is not. Most of us can still afford to own a toy, go out every weekend, go on vacation, etc... Yet we still complain.

[Browning151]

I could not agree more. Took the words out my mouth.
Maybe I feel this way because I come from a country where you see what not having insurance does. In my country the rich do great, everyone else is struggling pretty bad. We have it easy in this country. We talk about how bad it is but in reality is not. Most of us can still afford to own a toy, go out every weekend, go on vacation, etc... Yet we still complain.

Well if that's the case, why can't people go out a buy their own damn health insurance instead of expecting someone else to pay for it? Oh, that's right, personal responsibility is frowned upon and sucking the gov't teat for all it's worth is rewarded.

[.blank cd]

Well if that's the case, why can't people go out a buy their own damn health insurance instead of expecting someone else to pay for it? Oh, that's right, personal responsibility is frowned upon and sucking the gov't teat for all it's worth is rewarded.

Go buy your own damn health insurance then! Lol. People already aren't buying health insurance cause they don't have to, then getting saddled with ridiculous medical debt, then saying "fuck it, not paying it" because its prohibitive. What do you really think is causing health care costs to go up?

[Vteckidd]

the Car Insurance argument is stupid , cmon guys.

Ok, first of all you have a right to choose to NOT purchase car insurance, just dont buy a car. You can go through your entire life without ever having car insurance if you dont buy a car. Period. Have you ever owned Plane insurance? Boat insurance? House insurance? Unless you own those things you arent required to have insurance for them.

Requiring people to have health insurance is forcing them to pay for something they have no way of refusing. You are ''taxing" them for simple being "alive".

The problem is that while you can choose NOT to own a car, you cant choose NOT to get cancer, or not break your leg playing basketball, or whatever.

The Individual Mandate is bad for everyone, its going to bring care quality standards down and drive premiums UP. Then, we will get to a point where Private insurance will disappear and we will go to Single Payer, at that point your taxes will be so high to pay for medical care it wont matter.

Healthcare is a SERVICE BUSINESS, thats what the democrats cant get through their head. The way to lower premiums is expand coverage, and make the premium holders into consumers by making hospitals compete for care. Why pay $10,000 for an MRI when you can pay $500? Health Savings accounts, catastrophic coverage, etc are all ways to solve the problem.

But Obama doesnt want to solve the problem, he wants Single Payer. this is a step toward that.

[Vteckidd]

In countries with socialized healthcare, everyone raves about it and talks about how much America's healthcare system sucks, which it does. No one complains about wait times or quality of care because it's a non issue. Everyone gets the same quality of care, rich or poor. "Oh I dont wanna pay for someone else's grandmas healthcare because wah wah wah". Get over yourself or move to another country. I would gladly pay extra taxes so that myself and all my friends and family get healthcare.

Those other "SOCIALIZED COUNTRIES" dont have:
A) the population we have
B) the illegal immigration problem we have
C) some of those countries are in dire straits, financially.

You realize the "extra in taxes" you will have to pay is 3-5 TIMES THE DEFENSE BUDGET right? Right now the defense budget is 500 Billion dollars. Healthcare costs in 2009 were approaching 2 TRILLION DOLLARS. Figure out how much of your tax dollars go to Defense, and triple it, thats what you would have to pay to break even on healthcare costs.

[Vteckidd]

IF the individual mandate simply required everyone to have insurance from a private company, then you might see competition for cheaper plans. But , it basically says "if you cant afford it, you can buy it from the govt aka medicade" .

or you pay a 2.5% of income fine.

I just went to the doctor as ive been sick last 3 days. I have insurance but its not very good so usually colds and stuff i just go to CVC minute Clinics. Well i walked in an had strep throat, $116 dollars later i had antibiotics and walked out the door.

To be honest, id rather pay the $116 and be done than make an appt at my Dr office because i have to wait, make an appt, they always are late, then i have to see his Nurse, then the mid nurse, then i finally see the DR, etc.

Minute Clinic im in and out , so much more efficient. I dont go to the dr unless its something really really bad like I fractured my tibia (8 weeks ago :P)

So, get insurance that covers MAJOR problems like broken bones, sprains, tendon tears, surgery, etc. Any small things just pay cash and go to the Minute clinics.

Considering i paid $116 to go to the Dr. ONCE in the last 3 years for a cold vs paying $150 a month for the same insurance coverage................

[Browning151]

IF the individual mandate simply required everyone to have insurance from a private company, then you might see competition for cheaper plans. But , it basically says "if you cant afford it, you can buy it from the govt aka medicade" .

or you pay a 2.5% of income fine.

I just went to the doctor as ive been sick last 3 days. I have insurance but its not very good so usually colds and stuff i just go to CVC minute Clinics. Well i walked in an had strep throat, $116 dollars later i had antibiotics and walked out the door.

To be honest, id rather pay the $116 and be done than make an appt at my Dr office because i have to wait, make an appt, they always are late, then i have to see his Nurse, then the mid nurse, then i finally see the DR, etc.

Minute Clinic im in and out , so much more efficient. I dont go to the dr unless its something really really bad like I fractured my tibia (8 weeks ago :P)

So, get insurance that covers MAJOR problems like broken bones, sprains, tendon tears, surgery, etc. Any small things just pay cash and go to the Minute clinics.

Considering i paid $116 to go to the Dr. ONCE in the last 3 years for a cold vs paying $150 a month for the same insurance coverage................

Wait a minute, you mean you were able to get your healthcare needs taken care of without going broke or making someone else pay for it? All you had to do is a little planning and use some common sense and you could do that? You must be one of those whiney rich republicans or something.

[Vteckidd]

My point is if you dont have insurance, MOST care is affordable in terms of colds, flu, scrapes, etc.

Insurance is REALLY needed for the big stuff like broken bones, surgery, appendix ruptures, etc. IMO you should get a plan that takes care of the big ticket items, leave the smaller stuff to out of pocket expenditures .

$116 for STREP THROAT AND MEDS!? THATS CHEAP!

I was paying $150/month for my old insurance and i maybe used it once.

[Vteckidd]

Minor illness exams (http://www.minuteclinic.com/services/minorillness/?stateId=ga)

Services range from $79 - $89
Come to us for:

Allergy symptoms (2 years+)
Bronchitis / cough
Earache / ear infection
Flu-like symptoms
Mononucleosis (mono)
Motion sickness prevention
Sinus infection / congestion
Pink eye & styes
Sore throat / strep throat
Upper respiratory infection
Urinary tract / bladder infection (females 12 years+)

[BanginJimmy]

You might as well not have anything. They suck, and cover little to nothing.


You really are an idiot if you believe this. I know several people that purchase their own insurance and it has great coverage. I have family in the medical insurance business and they are expecting to roll out a massive rate increase next year.



It's like the elderly that use to bitch about SS. They would say Social Security would drive the country down,... DON"T DO IT! BLAH BLAH BLAH. Now that they are retired, go to their home and take the check away and let's see how they feel about it.


The people saying this were right. SS IS hurting the country because 4 generations of citizens ignored their retirement and just rely on SS to take care of them. The best possible thing we could do for SS is to transition to a privatized system and eventually phase it out. Look at Galveston Texas' system for a freat example. They opted out of SS when it was possible and set up a privatized system. Those people on the privatized system paid in less and get more out of it.



The ones bitching about it are the rich republicans who already have insurance, and the pseudo-republican-conservatives who vote party line no matter what, even when it hurts them because "'Murica fuck yea damn liberals". Anyone who does have half a brain won't give a shit because it will benefit them or it won't.

Typical banter from the clueless. The people with more than half a brain hate this because they see the obvious. Higher costs, lower quality, and in the end, single payer.

Heres a simple question for you. Say you have minimum coverage on your car. If the state starts coming down and mandating everyone carry collision coverage also, do you think your rates are going to come down? Next, they mandate that everyone who applies for insurance, no matter their driving record, must be approved. Will this also lower your insurance costs? This is exactly what Obamacare is.


In countries with socialized healthcare, everyone raves about it and talks about how much America's healthcare system sucks, which it does. No one complains about wait times or quality of care because it's a non issue. Everyone gets the same quality of care, rich or poor. "Oh I dont wanna pay for someone else's grandmas healthcare because wah wah wah". Get over yourself or move to another country. I would gladly pay extra taxes so that myself and all my friends and family get healthcare.


Really? 100% of the people in socialized countries love the healthcare? They enjoy waiting months for procedures you could have done the same day here?

I'm sure the people relying on a new hip are absolutely thrilled with the NHS.
Budget cuts force NHS hospitals to stop non-emergency surgery | Society | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/oct/12/nhs-trust-essex-cuts)



Go buy your own damn health insurance then! Lol. People already aren't buying health insurance cause they don't have to, then getting saddled with ridiculous medical debt, then saying "fuck it, not paying it" because its prohibitive. What do you really think is causing health care costs to go up?

I would make medicals bill principles unaffected by bankruptcy because you are right, people dont bother with health insurance because they are guaranteed care. Then again, this bill does nothing to change that. For the vast majority of people who fall into this category, they will simply do as I am going to do. Pay the tax every year and if I need an expensive procedure, purchase insurance then.

[Vteckidd]

Like it or not , Obamacare is forcing people to buy insurance or pay a tax/penalty.

How is that not going to affect the middle class/poor if you are going to force them to now purchase something and pay for it monthly?

[BanginJimmy]

Like it or not , Obamacare is forcing people to buy insurance or pay a tax/penalty.

Roberts changed the Govts defense for them and made it a tax. Has anyone ever heard of a judge changing the defenses defense cause it makes their life easier?


How is that not going to affect the middle class/poor if you are going to force them to now purchase something and pay for it monthly?


I have yet to hear anyone give even an inkling of an idea on how this is going to lower healthcare costs. The mandate in of itself WOULD lower costs to individuals, but any savings associated with higher membership are pissed away with mandated coverage.




Another question, what does this law do to employees 50-55? If I am running a business, they are out the door and I stick at 49 so I'm not covered by the mandate.

Need more employees to make your 5 piece widget? Start another business. 1 business makes the pieces then sells it to the other to assemble them. Now you have up to 98 employees without having to deal with the mandate. And you can go on from there until you get to the point that it makes more sense to outsource.

[.blank cd]

If you do the math on it, it's really not that much more than you're already paying:

We know healthcare costs are more than the defense budget. We'll take the middle men out of the equation (insurance companies) and it deflates the costs a lot. End all unnecessary military conflict that doesn't immediately threaten domestic US territory (everything that's going on now), apply all of THAT money to healthcare, maybe 250 billion. Take about $30 in taxes each month from EVERY tax paying citizen, or make it progressive based on income, lets say youve got about 250 million of those, bump up the tax on cigarettes and alcohol, LEGALIZE, REGULATE, AND TAX WEED AND COCAINE and voila! Socialized medicine paid for, AND legal drugs. All rolled into one. 80% of the population is happier.


Like it or not , Obamacare is forcing people to buy insurance or pay a tax/penalty.

How is that not going to affect the middle class/poor if you are going to force them to now purchase something and pay for it monthly?

Subsidized for anyone between 133% and 400% of the poverty line. Medicaid for those under it. I'm middle class now, don't know where I'll stand on that line in 2 years, but Im fine with that.

[Browning151]

Another question, what does this law do to employees 50-55? If I am running a business, they are out the door and I stick at 49 so I'm not covered by the mandate.

Need more employees to make your 5 piece widget? Start another business. 1 business makes the pieces then sells it to the other to assemble them. Now you have up to 98 employees without having to deal with the mandate. And you can go on from there until you get to the point that it makes more sense to outsource.

Temp agencies? Might not be a bad time to get into that business.

[.blank cd]

And you can go on from there until you get to the point that it makes more sense to outsource.Thats the American way! Lol.

Never understood why this is the mantra of the same conservatives who always ask where the jobs are. Lol.

[BanginJimmy]

Thats the American way! Lol.

Never understood why this is the mantra of the same conservatives who always ask where the jobs are. Lol.

Thats the smart way. If it was cheaper to manufacture a product here than in Brazil, Brazilian companies would be manufacturing here instead of there.

[BanginJimmy]

If you do the math on it, it's really not that much more than you're already paying:

We know healthcare costs are more than the defense budget. We'll take the middle men out of the equation (insurance companies) and it deflates the costs a lot. End all unnecessary military conflict that doesn't immediately threaten domestic US territory (everything that's going on now), apply all of THAT money to healthcare, maybe 250 billion. Take about $30 in taxes each month from EVERY tax paying citizen, or make it progressive based on income, lets say youve got about 250 million of those, bump up the tax on cigarettes and alcohol, LEGALIZE, REGULATE, AND TAX WEED AND COCAINE and voila! Socialized medicine paid for, AND legal drugs. All rolled into one. 80% of the population is happier.

Accounting for all this, you still lose more than a trillion a year. You forget the added crime from people running around high on cocaine and crack.

You also didnt account for the added billions a year in fraud.




Subsidized for anyone between 133% and 400% of the poverty line. Medicaid for those under it. I'm middle class now, don't know where I'll stand on that line in 2 years, but Im fine with that.

So you mean if I am under 400% of the poverty line, someone else would pay for me to get health insurance? I am all for this. Oh wait, the govt one will still cost more than 2.5% of my income. Forget it, I will worry about insurance after I need it. They want to make the system easy to game, why shouldnt I game it?


BTW, is congress going to join this wonderful plan or are they going to hide from it like they do with most of the garbage they pass?

[Vteckidd]

If you do the math on it, it's really not that much more than you're already paying:

We know healthcare costs are more than the defense budget. We'll take the middle men out of the equation (insurance companies) and it deflates the costs a lot. End all unnecessary military conflict that doesn't immediately threaten domestic US territory (everything that's going on now), apply all of THAT money to healthcare, maybe 250 billion. Take about $30 in taxes each month from EVERY tax paying citizen, or make it progressive based on income, lets say youve got about 250 million of those, bump up the tax on cigarettes and alcohol, LEGALIZE, REGULATE, AND TAX WEED AND COCAINE and voila! Socialized medicine paid for, AND legal drugs. All rolled into one. 80% of the population is happier.


Name me 1 program that the govt has been able to run IN BUDGET and not grossly underfund.........

SS?
MC?
MCaide?

negative ghost rider. You and i both know the "savings from the war" arent savings, its money they will spend on something else. There isnt any money left thats the whole point.

Im with you on taxing the shit out of Weed and legalizing it, not on cocaine.


Taking the insurance companies out of the middle doesnt help anything, private companies are better at running the private sector (we will disagree on this in principle). Healthcare is a service based industry. You have to pay for care. Its not an entitlement. You arent entitled to healthcare. Once you accept that you can start fixing the problem.

Hospitals cost money
Doctors cost money
Equipment costs money
Ambulances cost money
Needles cost money
MRI cost money
Surgery costs money

There is nothing wrong with it being a FOR PROFIT business because it HAS to be. No other model works when you factor in our population, our illegal immigration problems, and our economy. You cant compare us to Sweden, or Canada.

Now that we agree its a for profit business because there is no other choice, you have to get the insurance companies to compete against each other for YOUR dollar. That means why pay $10,000 for an MRI when you can pay $500, why pay $90 for a doctor visit when you can pay $50. I paid $116 for a lady to swab my throat and give me penicillin an it took her 3 minutes to see me. Why do i need to go to a Dr to do that? A nurse does the same thing right?

Increase competition, lower prices, cap malpractice lawsuits, allow buying over state lines, and offer some form of catastrophic coverage for people who dont want full time health care.

Lets face it people arent going broke going to the Dr. for strep throat or bronchitis. They are going broke because of a broken leg or cancer. Why should i pay $150/month for something i might use ONCE a year or less? Let me pay for a plan that fits me and my needs. We do it with Auto Insurance? Why not Healthcare?

Does a 25 year old really need access to $150/month healthcare to treat a head cold? NO. He needs something for broken bones or surgery.

Im all for mandating minimum coverage provided by private insurance as long as it is tailored to fit the needs of the people that need it.

[.blank cd]

You and i both know the "savings from the war" arent savings, its money they will spend on something else. There isnt any money left thats the whole point..That's exactly what we want them to do though! Spend it on something else. In this case something that will save a few lives instead of ending them

[Vteckidd]

That's exactly what we want them to do though! Spend it on something else. In this case something that will save a few lives instead of ending them

yeah but they wont do that lol

Govt looks at SAVING 100 million from not being in a war= Spend 100 million on building airport for Senator of North Dakota.

There are no savings per se, if there was they would pay down the deficit.

When we are projected at running 1+ Trillion dollar deficits already, there are no savings.

The reason why the individual mandate is so big, is if it got struck down they had ZERO way to fund Obamacare. the war savings doesnt touch 1/100th the cost of healthcare in this country

[BanginJimmy]

That's exactly what we want them to do though! Spend it on something else. In this case something that will save a few lives instead of ending them

The entire cost of a decade in Iraq and Asscrackistan wont pay for 2 years of Obamacare.

This is going to push our deficits even further and probably lead to another downgrade.



Where do you see savings for ANYONE in this bill? Just a reminder, I dont use the congressional definition of savings either. Savings means spending less than the previous year, not a smaller increase.

[Sinfix_15]

The ones bitching about it are the rich republicans who already have insurance, and the pseudo-republican-conservatives who vote party line no matter what, even when it hurts them because "'Murica fuck yea damn liberals". Anyone who does have half a brain won't give a shit because it will benefit them or it won't.

In countries with socialized healthcare, everyone raves about it and talks about how much America's healthcare system sucks, which it does. No one complains about wait times or quality of care because it's a non issue. Everyone gets the same quality of care, rich or poor. "Oh I dont wanna pay for someone else's grandmas healthcare because wah wah wah". Get over yourself or move to another country. I would gladly pay extra taxes so that myself and all my friends and family get healthcare.

i would gladly move to another country if i had a realistic option to do so. If my job opened a branch in another country.... id be asking whos dick i could suck to get moved there. Yes..... thats how bad YOUR president is.

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I wonder if this was Romney's healthcare plan if there would have been as much backlash against it. My guess is probably not because it would've been sold with American eagles and Jesus.

[Vteckidd]

I wonder if this was Romney's healthcare plan if there would have been as much backlash against it. My guess is probably not because it would've been sold with American eagles and Jesus.

rOMNEYS plan was a STATE plan not a national plan, and it went after people that didnt have insurance and left the people that did have insurance alone in theory.

But even so, its much easier to have an individual mandate on a per state basis that the state pays for itself, not at the federal level.

its 2 totally different plans, Romney or GOP never would have proposed what Obama is proposing. The GOP thought up the individual mandate, and honestly i think the individual mandate is something we are going to have to come to grips with and somehow its going to have to work. But it should be within the guise of the private insurance companies.

Obamas mandate is to basically take a step towards eliminating the private insurance companies so we get single payer. Problem is the country cannot afford single payer, itll go broke. Then, you wont have any healthcare at all

[BanginJimmy]

I really need to make myself read more on Romneycare so I can actually compare the 2.

Does Romneycare also carry with it all of the extra mandates to insurance companies that Obamacare does? Does it also dictate how much an insurer is allowed to make? Could you imagine what this world would be like if the govt could tell an individual business how much they are allowed to make?


BTW, I have yet to hear anyone tell me how Obamacare is going to do anything but cause prices to go up drasticly.


You cant say the mandate will bring in all these extra healthy people because the bill also forces a lot more expenses on insurers than it does revenue. How many hundreds of new healthy customers will it take for an insurer to cover just 1 cancer case? How many millions will it take for an insurer to cover free checkups and free birth control? The math just isnt there unless insurers just jack up prices. According to the bill, 80% of premiums will need to be spent on healthcare, I wonder how insurers will adjust to that to keep their profit margin constant, which they will do.

On top of all the other problems, this bill will eliminate competition as small insurers will have no way to compete with larger ones.

[nelson9995]

Again, ignore what you can't control. It's passed, nothing we can do about it.
Let's adapt to it, just like the elderly had to adapt to SS.

[BanginJimmy]

Again, ignore what you can't control. It's passed, nothing we can do about it.
Let's adapt to it, just like the elderly had to adapt to SS.

Or you do the smart thing and work to get people elected who will repeal it.

The French and English are happy you had no influence in the early '40's. You would have just told them to adapt to the new reality of German occupation.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[.blank cd]

Or you do the smart thing and work to get people elected who will repeal it.

The French and English are happy you had no influence in the early '40's. You would have just told them to adapt to the new reality of German occupation.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

No, they're happy we have no influence cause if we influenced them, they'd have for-profit healthcare and citizens dying because they can't afford treatment.

[Vteckidd]

I think for profit is the only way healthcare can be run, but you must force competition to bring prices down and offer tailored plans to meet peoples needs.

Healthcare cant be run as a non profit, theres not enough money in the world to do that

[Sinfix_15]

No, they're happy we have no influence cause if we influenced them, they'd have for-profit healthcare and citizens dying because they can't afford treatment.

The soup at the soup kitchen is just as good and readily available as the soup at Olive Garden. If all of Olive Garden's customers decided to go to the soup kitchen, the soup kitchen would have no problems continuing to offer their soup without profit. The quality of chef that would volunteer to work at the soup kitchen is just as good as the chef who would work for profit at Olive Garden.

Silly right?

Why cant we use the same common sense when talking about healthcare?

[Vteckidd]

The soup at the soup kitchen is just as good and readily available as the soup at Olive Garden. If all of Olive Garden's customers decided to go to the soup kitchen, the soup kitchen would have no problems continuing to offer their soup without profit. The quality of chef that would volunteer to work at the soup kitchen is just as good as the chef who would work for profit at Olive Garden.

Silly right?

Why cant we use the same common sense when talking about healthcare?

because they will say the Soup Kitchen is better because everyone gets care vs only the people who can afford it.

If you have ZERO healthcare at all, would you rather have shitty Dr visits, or nothing? They arent concerned with the "top care" because they will never get it anyway. Its why people freak out when they hear the oil companies make 20 billion dollars in profit, when in reality, they only average 8% return. 20 billion is a huge number when you make $50,000 a year yourself, but in context of their operation, its not a lot of money. they could make A TON more.

Mediocre care for everyone is better than Decent care for some, and no care for others, and top quality care for few. That is their entire argument. They want to bring the entire system down lower so everyone can partake in it.

[Browning151]

because they will say the Soup Kitchen is better because everyone gets care vs only the people who can afford it.

If you have ZERO healthcare at all, would you rather have shitty Dr visits, or nothing? They arent concerned with the "top care" because they will never get it anyway. Its why people freak out when they hear the oil companies make 20 billion dollars in profit, when in reality, they only average 8% return. 20 billion is a huge number when you make $50,000 a year yourself, but in context of their operation, its not a lot of money. they could make A TON more.

Mediocre care for everyone is better than Decent care for some, and no care for others, and top quality care for few. That is their entire argument. They want to bring the entire system down lower so everyone can partake in it.

That's the liberal way, instead of bringing the bottom up, bring the top down. All in the name of fairness.

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That's the liberal way, instead of bringing the bottom up, bring the top down. All in the name of fairness.

Is the right still using this tired old phrase? Bring the top down instead of the bottom up? LOL

[.blank cd]

The soup at the soup kitchen is just as good and readily available as the soup at Olive Garden. If all of Olive Garden's customers decided to go to the soup kitchen, the soup kitchen would have no problems continuing to offer their soup without profit. The quality of chef that would volunteer to work at the soup kitchen is just as good as the chef who would work for profit at Olive Garden.

Silly right?

Why cant we use the same common sense when talking about healthcare?

Really?

[Sinfix_15]

At what point will black people be able to discuss Obama subjectively? will it not be until we have a 2nd black president? It's nearly impossible to talk about Obama with a black person. He can literally do nothing wrong and is the savior of the modern world............

[Sinfix_15]

Really?

What part of the analogy do you not understand?

[Browning151]

Is the right still using this tired old phrase? Bring the top down instead of the bottom up? LOL

That's exactly what PRESBO has preached since day 1, tax the rich and spread the wealth, same principle applies with this healthcare mess. If that's not bringing the top down I don't know what is.

[.blank cd]

What part of the analogy do you not understand?

I think you and a lot of people confuse "non-profit" with "free".

[Vteckidd]

I think you and a lot of people confuse "non-profit" with "free".

I wasnt being an asshole, i was being serious so just focus on what i said. Is that not true?

You cant have innovation without investment which comes from profit. Sure, there are govt funded research labs and such, but as a whole, private investment is much more thriving and bigger.

If you try to eliminate the private insurance carriers, and make everything govt related, you will lose that section of the business that invests in Viagra, Propecia, Cancer drugs, etc. They risk capital to find new medicine, but also to make money. Thats just the way the world works.

Healthcare is far to big an industry to be solely non-profit. Most Non Profits exist in niche markets.

[Vteckidd]

Is the right still using this tired old phrase? Bring the top down instead of the bottom up? LOL

well that is what they are doing. Its impossible to have top quality care when you want to put a cap on what people can make. Its econ 101. Remember Healthcare is a for profit business, we all agreed it is. Dealing with that business model, you cannot have:

A) Cheap care
B) Free access
C) Top Talent

Just not possible. you cant have the best Drs in the world with the best equipment and have it be a not for profit business model. not only that, the whole premise of universal healthcare is to give access to a service that only the "wealthier" of people can afford. So yes, it is bringing the top down to the bottom.

[alex14]

Speaking as a 21 year old who lives on my own and is 100% independent from my parents, free healthcare is horse shit. I dont have healthcare because I cant afford it. Healthcare is a privileged not a right. Besides, go to the hospital when you are hurt. It is illegal for them to not help you. People are going to abuse the shit out of this.

The government sucks ass at running things in comparison to the private sector, Do you really want these fools in control of your well-being? I know I dont.

[nelson9995]

Speaking as a 21 year old who lives on my own and is 100% independent from my parents, free healthcare is horse shit. I dont have healthcare because I cant afford it. Healthcare is a privileged not a right. Besides, go to the hospital when you are hurt. It is illegal for them to not help you. People are going to abuse the shit out of this.

The government sucks ass at running things in comparison to the private sector, Do you really want these fools in control of your well-being? I know I dont.

So, if you can't afford medical ins... what makes you think you can afford the bill after you go for their overpriced services?

[BanginJimmy]

So, if you can't afford medical ins... what makes you think you can afford the bill after you go for their overpriced services?

A VAST majority of singles in their 20's will spend more a year on medical insurance than they do on medical care. To counter the possibilty of a major procedure you can easily purchase a major medical plan for 1/10th of the cost of a typical plan.


Since you believe the services re overpiced and you agree with Obamacare, why dont you enlighten us and tell us what provisions of Obamacare will bring prices down.

[nelson9995]

Who cares about prices not dropping? You can now feel safe knowing your grandmother who may have diabetes, cancer, etc... can get treated...

and the whole thing about wait until you need it and get insurance is bs.
Have you not seen all the cases where people go in and their insurance won't cover because they previously had the same problem they are now going in for. Most insurances won't cover you.

Man, I swear the only ones complaining are the ones that can already afford insurance, or are being affected by this in a negative way.

[nelson9995]

I would gladly pay a bit extra and know that people aren't dying from cancer because they found out when it's too late. This is a form of preventive care. But again, 99% of business owners are against this because it is hurting their pockets. This is why the world is the way it is. Noone cares about anyone anymore.
Notice how most the billion dollar companies pay minimum wage. How do the rich get rich? exploiting the poor. It is VERY hard for a person to get rich doing the right thing. It all works together.

I was watching undercover boss and I can't remember the last time I got that angry. The owner went for a week undercover doing what his employees do and by NO MEANS he could do what they did. Not even in double the time. These people are being worked in paces where only robots would be able to do it effectively. Even though he couldn't do ANYTHING, not even in double the time as his employees, he didn't do anything to change it. He just congratulated them, (In other words, "thanks for making me money bitches") and didn't change a thing. Why? because he could care less about his employees, all he cares about is them making him money.

Sadly, this is the way it is in 99% of the cases. Most business owners disgust me.
I've only met one business owner, in my entire life, who I actually looked up to.

[.blank cd]

The government sucks ass at running things in comparison to the private sector, Do you really want these fools in control of your well-being? I know I dont.You hit the nail on the head, but why stop there? We need private sector law enforcement, military, and fire departments as well. We can't continue to trust the government with our safety! And why are we still letting Uncle Sam regulate what goes in our mouths with their ridiculous FDA? And what about the Department of Education? If I want my childs school to teach my children that the earth was made 6000 years ago and dinosaurs existed with humans, then god damnit, thats what they're gonna teach! When are we gonna learn, we gotta let the private sector handle ALL of this since the government sucks at running things, period. And dont let the damn libruls tell you any different!

[Vteckidd]

Police , Fire, Teachers arent 1/100th the cost of medical care. And they are totally different scenarios. The federal govt doesnt run police, fire services, those are state taxes.

ANd if you havent noticed most public school institutions are bankrupt

[KevinT707]

Wise words sir, and I completely agree. PREVENTATIVE care is the keyword, and since this is a car forum lets put this in analogous terms. Do you change your engine/trans/diff. fluids at the recommended intervals, or do you wait for damage to happen? Do you get new tires before they are worn, or wait to hydroplane into a wall?


I would gladly pay a bit extra and know that people aren't dying from cancer because they found out when it's too late. This is a form of preventive care. But again, 99% of business owners are against this because it is hurting their pockets. This is why the world is the way it is. Noone cares about anyone anymore.
Notice how most the billion dollar companies pay minimum wage. How do the rich get rich? exploiting the poor. It is VERY hard for a person to get rich doing the right thing. It all works together.

[Vteckidd]

you guys couldnt be more further from the truth.

Preventative care is YOUR responsibility, not a business owners. YOU should be responsible for your own well being, if you want health care, GO BUY IT. If you want preventative care, GO SCHEDULE IT.

The people that "cant afford" healthcare fall into 2 groups

1) People who legit cant afford care, make too little money, etc
2) They dont buy healthcare because they dont make it a priority. Nelson i GUARANTEE you can afford healthcare, you just choose NOT to buy it. IF it was really important to you you could buy it.

[Vteckidd]

I would gladly pay a bit extra and know that people aren't dying from cancer because they found out when it's too late. This is a form of preventive care. But again, 99% of business owners are against this because it is hurting their pockets. This is why the world is the way it is. Noone cares about anyone anymore.
Notice how most the billion dollar companies pay minimum wage. How do the rich get rich? exploiting the poor. It is VERY hard for a person to get rich doing the right thing. It all works together.

Not true. If you have skills you get paid well, what you guys want is minimum wage jobs to pay you $50,000 a year. Hey, if you dont like it go start your own business if its so easy.


I was watching undercover boss and I can't remember the last time I got that angry. The owner went for a week undercover doing what his employees do and by NO MEANS he could do what they did. Not even in double the time. These people are being worked in paces where only robots would be able to do it effectively. Even though he couldn't do ANYTHING, not even in double the time as his employees, he didn't do anything to change it. He just congratulated them, (In other words, "thanks for making me money bitches") and didn't change a thing. Why? because he could care less about his employees, all he cares about is them making him money.

People go in business to GET RICH. If you dont like it , leave. Go start your own company. Go to another country that pays $8 to a 16 year old.....oh wait you cant. Are some business owners shrewd? Yeah , sure, but who is forcing you to work for them? GO somewhere else.


Sadly, this is the way it is in 99% of the cases. Most business owners disgust me.
I've only met one business owner, in my entire life, who I actually looked up to.

If you ever become a business owner youll understand.

[BanginJimmy]

I would gladly pay a bit extra and know that people aren't dying from cancer because they found out when it's too late. This is a form of preventive care. But again, 99% of business owners are against this because it is hurting their pockets. This is why the world is the way it is. Noone cares about anyone anymore.

That is you, why should I pay more for things I am not able to take any advantage of? The purpose of a business is to make a profit so of course they are against ANY new costs that hurt their bottom line. It isnt about caring for anyone, its about expecting people to take care of themselves. Why do I need to take care of someone when they are doing absolutely nothing to take care of themselves? Why should I pay more for my coverage cause some fat ass smoker gets cancer?


Notice how most the billion dollar companies pay minimum wage. How do the rich get rich? exploiting the poor. It is VERY hard for a person to get rich doing the right thing. It all works together.

Name 1 single fortune 500 company that only pays minimum wage. I mean really, you have to be a complete knuckle dragging idiot to believe this. I understand you hate and are jealous of the rich. People who consistently make poor choices in life usually are. The vast majority of those rich people are rich is because they work harder than you are they work smarter than you.


I was watching undercover boss and I can't remember the last time I got that angry. The owner went for a week undercover doing what his employees do and by NO MEANS he could do what they did. Not even in double the time. These people are being worked in paces where only robots would be able to do it effectively. Even though he couldn't do ANYTHING, not even in double the time as his employees, he didn't do anything to change it. He just congratulated them, (In other words, "thanks for making me money bitches") and didn't change a thing. Why? because he could care less about his employees, all he cares about is them making him money.

So just because someone who has no training or experience doing a particular job means he doesnt pay well enough? You just keep topping yourself. I seriously doubt the CEO of the company I work for could do my job at my speed with only a week to learn it. I had a decade of experience doing this type of work before I started this job and I am FAR faster doing it than I was in the first week.


Sadly, this is the way it is in 99% of the cases. Most business owners disgust me.
I've only met one business owner, in my entire life, who I actually looked up to.

I would imagine that in 99% of cases a small business owner can do any job in the place. When you get into medium and large businesses, the owner/CEO has far more important things to do than the grunt work.

I seriously doubt you have met many successful business owners. By your definitions of a business owner, they paid too much and didnt profit enough.


You hit the nail on the head, but why stop there? We need private sector law enforcement, military, and fire departments as well. We can't continue to trust the government with our safety! And why are we still letting Uncle Sam regulate what goes in our mouths with their ridiculous FDA? And what about the Department of Education? If I want my childs school to teach my children that the earth was made 6000 years ago and dinosaurs existed with humans, then god damnit, thats what they're gonna teach! When are we gonna learn, we gotta let the private sector handle ALL of this since the government sucks at running things, period. And dont let the damn libruls tell you any different!


Another tired argument that you and a couple others use. Police, fire, and military are a service provided by the govt and paid for through taxes. They are overpriced and inefficient. Then you go into the crazy crap that only proves you dont have a real argument. You do bring up the dept of ed though. What does the dept do that justifies the cost? Over 100B a year for nothing. The states didnt teach that before the dept of ed, and they wont if its gone again.


Wise words sir, and I completely agree. PREVENTATIVE care is the keyword, and since this is a car forum lets put this in analogous terms. Do you change your engine/trans/diff. fluids at the recommended intervals, or do you wait for damage to happen? Do you get new tires before they are worn, or wait to hydroplane into a wall?

Yea, lets use cars as an example. Does you car insurance pay for fluid changes and new tires? No, they dont. Preventive maintenance is your responsibility. Costs would go down drasticly if health insurance would use the same model. Insurance to cover unexpected problems, not day to day maintenance.

[Vteckidd]

One thing i forgot was, I bet none of the minimum wage employees have the education the CEO does, and can run a multi million dollar company.

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Name 1 single fortune 500 company that only pays minimum wage. I mean really, you have to be a complete knuckle dragging idiot to believe this. I understand you hate and are jealous of the rich. People who consistently make poor choices in life usually are. The vast majority of those rich people are rich is because they work harder than you are they work smarter than you.Just went down the Fortune500 list and about 80% of the first 100 companies pay their primary workforce under $9 an hour

[Vteckidd]

Just went down the Fortune500 list and about 80% of the first 100 companies pay their primary workforce under $9 an hour

link or list ? IM curious to see that information.

But in context, all companies have entry level jobs right? Entry level jobs probably are the majority of any positions out there because they are the EASIEST to obtain. Point being there are tons of $9/hour jobs, but theres very few $100/hour jobs comparitively speaking.

SO while the Fortune 500s have a ton of lower paying jobs and that is their primary work force, that is just simply statistical probability.

[Vteckidd]

Example: Tons of people have COllege Degrees, very few have Harvard Degrees

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link or list ? IM curious to see that information.
Full 2012 list:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/full_list/

[BanginJimmy]

Just went down the Fortune500 list and about 80% of the first 100 companies pay their primary workforce under $9 an hour


Full 2012 list:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/full_list/

$9/hr is more than minimum wage. Thanks for proving my point.

Lets look at the ones you are likely talking about.

Is bagging groceries or stocking shelves for Walgreens, Wal-Mart or Kroger worth more than $9/hr? Absolutely not.

You also have to remember that turnaround in these positions is VERY high where the majority of workers are there for 3 years or less and many are HS students.

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Doesn't help your point at all that the top two actually DO pay their workers min wage. I'll consider 9 and under barely scraping by in today's economy.

[nelson9995]

From these posts I can conclude two things. bangingJimmy would be one of those selfish CEO's that could care less about his workers. His workers deserve to come out of work with their body hurting because he wants to go on vacation more often, and open a new branch, while his workers can't afford to drive a decent car.

Why should walmart pay their cashiers $7.25 when thery can afford to pay them $26 an hour and still make a profit. By no means they should be getting paid $26, but at least start them at $10-12 I would say. This is what I'm talking about.

Cocacola pays their warehouse employees $8. Have you seen the condition they work in? I am willing to bet my left nut you wouldn't last a week in there. I know some of these employyes. They come home and get in ice water from the pain and stress the job creates, yet cocacola keeps growing and making more and more money.

[Vteckidd]

From these posts I can conclude two things. bangingJimmy would be one of those selfish CEO's that could care less about his workers. His workers deserve to come out of work with their body hurting because he wants to go on vacation more often, and open a new branch, while his workers can't afford to drive a decent car.

SO what? He started the business, he took the risk to create the jobs that employ them in the first place. Its HIS COMPANY. If the workers dont like the Pay, the work, or the hours, they are free to go somewhere else.

Business is dictated by competition. If you dont like flipping burgers at mcdonalds, go try flipping burgers at BK, or wendys, and if they all suck, LEARN A DIFFERENT SKILL or Trade right?

You dont DESERVE to drive a decent car, you should work hard to make enough money to buy a NICE car you can AFFORD.

I realize that despite my ambition, ill probably NEVER MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO OWN A FERRARI. Odds are supremely stacked against me. That doesnt mean i should hate my boss who owns 2.

[nelson9995]

Let's take advantage of the law and pay $7.25 because it's "legal" and we can get away from it. lol lol. again, business owners disgust me.

So, it's okay for companies to do what they want and get away with it? This is the reason this country would really go bad if a person like Romney wins the elections. lol

[BanginJimmy]

Doesn't help your point at all that the top two actually DO pay their workers min wage. I'll consider 9 and under barely scraping by in today's economy.


1. Wal-Mart employees dont do a job worth more than minimum wage. It is not an employers job to make sure they pay enough to support you, it is your job to make sure you come to the workforce with the skills that dictate your earnings can support you.

2. I would like to see proof that Exxon pays their American workers minimum wage.


From these posts I can conclude two things. bangingJimmy would be one of those selfish CEO's that could care less about his workers. His workers deserve to come out of work with their body hurting because he wants to go on vacation more often, and open a new branch, while his workers can't afford to drive a decent car.

You obviously dont know shit about me then. As the NCOIC of a shop while I was active duty, I didnt have a say in their wages but I took damn good care of my people. I also expected them to do their jobs and didnt take excuses as to why it wasnt done in the expected manner.

In the free market people get paid what they are worth. Since you dont think minimum wage is enough for a bagger to make, what should he be making? $20/hr?

BTW, a $9/hr job is better than 18k a year. For someone just starting out in the workforce, that is pretty good money. Is it the employers fault you cant raise a family of 4 on an entry level job or it your fault for expecting to be able to? In 2001 my wife bought the house we currently live in while making $11/hr.

[BanginJimmy]

Let's take advantage of the law and pay $7.25 because it's "legal" and we can get away from it. lol lol. again, business owners disgust me.

So, it's okay for companies to do what they want and get away with it? This is the reason this country would really go bad if a person like Romney wins the elections. lol

You really are an idiot.

Do you honestly think an licensed electrician is going to work for $7.35 an hour? How about an aeronautical engineer? No they arent. You know who is going to work for that though? The 16 y/o HS student in his first job. The 18y/o HS dropout with zero intelligence or ambition. Which group do you belong in?

[Vteckidd]

Let's take advantage of the law and pay $7.25 because it's "legal" and we can get away from it. lol lol. again, business owners disgust me.

So, it's okay for companies to do what they want and get away with it? This is the reason this country would really go bad if a person like Romney wins the elections. lol

what do you think minimum wage should be then? Answer truthfully.

Minimum wage doesnt exist to LIVE ON, it exists as a basis for the lowest you can pay for a job, its exists for HS kids and people incapable of getting a better job. its a safety net

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1. Wal-Mart employees dont do a job worth more than minimum wage. It is not an employers job to make sure they pay enough to support you, it is your job to make sure you come to the workforce with the skills that dictate your earnings can support you.

2. I would like to see proof that Exxon pays their American workers minimum wage.Why do you always like to turn this into two different arguments? You specifically asked to see ONE 500 company that pays their workers min wage. I showed you 50.

And as a previous manager of a gas station, I can assure you any American corporate Exxon station pays their employees min wage or under $9/hr. Same with all of the other supermajor oil companies.

[.blank cd]

Minimum wage doesnt exist to LIVE ONThat might be more true if it weren't for the fact that when it was set up, you could actually LIVE on it.

[Vteckidd]

Why should walmart pay their cashiers $7.25 when thery can afford to pay them $26 an hour and still make a profit. By no means they should be getting paid $26, but at least start them at $10-12 I would say. This is what I'm talking about.

Cocacola pays their warehouse employees $8. Have you seen the condition they work in? I am willing to bet my left nut you wouldn't last a week in there. I know some of these employyes. They come home and get in ice water from the pain and stress the job creates, yet cocacola keeps growing and making more and more money.

do you have business plans showing that they can profit from increased wages. What would be the total cost? Overhead impact? What about competition?

The $8 hour jobs arent supposed to be easy or GOOD, we dont want people in those jobs, we want people to hold those jobs until they move onto something better.

You want them to make $60k a year working mediocre general labor jobs............

you also realize that you just described massive inflation.

[Vteckidd]

That might be more true if it weren't for the fact that when it was set up, you could actually LIVE on it.

you can live on it now, just not very well. Which is fine, thats the way it is supposed to be. Minimum wage was $4.25 when i was in high school, that was 13 years ago, you couldnt live on that alone, times havent changed that much.

Minimum wage is not designed for people to LIVE ON, you really want a nation of people who only want to work for the MINIMUM PAYING WAGE?????

[Vteckidd]

And as a previous manager of a gas station, I can assure you any American corporate Exxon station pays their employees min wage or under $9/hr. Same with all of the other supermajor oil companies.

QT pays assistant managers $35,000 starting, up to mid 50s from what i have heard.

[.blank cd]

QT pays assistant managers $35,000 starting, up to mid 50s from what i have heard.

QT isn't a supermajor. They buy their gas from other companies, and they're in the convenience business. QT, Racetrac, OTG.. They make their money from the shit you buy inside. None-the-less, starting out is around 8-9/hr.

[BanginJimmy]

Why do you always like to turn this into two different arguments? You specifically asked to see ONE 500 company that pays their workers min wage. I showed you 50.

You were the one that said the companies paid their primary work for under $9 an hour. I granted you the retail places in which most of the jobs are stocking shelves and bagging purchases.


And as a previous manager of a gas station, I can assure you any American corporate Exxon station pays their employees min wage or under $9/hr. Same with all of the other supermajor oil companies.

Are these corporate owned or franchises? Again, you are talking about idiots running a cash register. It is a job anyone in the world can do and doesnt call for anything but a minimum wage salary. Also, just because a job makes up a higher percentage of workers, doesnt make it the primary work force. The primary work force is the backbone of a company, in the case of the oil companies it would be the roughnecks or engineers. both of them make well over $9/hr.

[bu villain]

Health benefits being related to an employer is an outdated relic that needs to go. Losing health care benefits is one of the top concerns for people who are thinking about quitting their corporate jobs and starting a business. It even creates further inefficiency in the labor market because many people are afraid to even switch to another corporate job due to changing health coverage. You can argue that people shouldn't worry about these things so much but the fact is that they do. Decouple health insurance from employment!

[Sinfix_15]

Let's take advantage of the law and pay $7.25 because it's "legal" and we can get away from it. lol lol. again, business owners disgust me.

So, it's okay for companies to do what they want and get away with it? This is the reason this country would really go bad if a person like Romney wins the elections. lol

yeah, expecting the world to be independent and take care of themselves is madness. We need the government to take care of us all. Who cares that Obama is taking care of us with money that he doesnt have?

Sometimes hard and unpopular decisions need to be made. You cant just be cool like Obama all the time. Being president is a lot like being a parent. If you think your mom and dad are super cool..... theyre probably not raising you right. Parents have to say no sometimes and have to do things you dont like sometimes. You need to be independent. You cant just keep running up the credit card because it makes you happy. If you cant afford something, you cant have it, no matter how much you want it.

some business only pay people $7.25 an hour? If you dont like it, start your own business and pay everyone whatever you want to pay them. You have the freedom to do this, the same way the other business owners have the freedom to set their pay rates.

[BanginJimmy]

Health benefits being related to an employer is an outdated relic that needs to go. Losing health care benefits is one of the top concerns for people who are thinking about quitting their corporate jobs and starting a business. It even creates further inefficiency in the labor market because many people are afraid to even switch to another corporate job due to changing health coverage. You can argue that people shouldn't worry about these things so much but the fact is that they do. Decouple health insurance from employment!

I'm all for that. I am also in favor of a la carte insurance plans in which you can pick your coverages like you do with your car insurance. The problem is that govt regulation has made that impossible. Because of govt mandated minimum coverages, a la carte plans are impossible.

[nelson9995]

Jimmy- Yes, I have ambition. I have proved it over and over. I worked full time, and went to school fulltime (50 miles away, 100 miles roundtrip, 3 times a week) for 4 years, having jobs where I worked 40-60 hrs a week. I have a good job, and an education. But, I have seen myself at some of those minimum wage jobs prior to this. I can tell you, the work you do, the pressure you have, and the pace you are worked in is DEFINETELY worth more than $7/hr. These people may not do a job that is more important than yours, but they sure do work harder.

I worked at a bakery (sugarfoods which is a huge restaurant supplier) making $8 an hour from 4am to 3pm Monday-saturday. I had to bag 55 bags a minute and if you fell behind things would start falling on the floor. I literally got sore working there. My back hurted daily, my hands would cramp. Hell, I caught myself sweating most of the time. You think $8 is fair?
Employees would complain about it to managers, supervisors, etc... All they asked was for the speed to be reduced just a bit. Their answer was always; "We'd be losing money. It's a job, and you don't have to do it." I lol'ed at them when they told that to a few woman that worked there for years, who were already having back problems. I literally just wished I could somehow see him outside and not get in trouble with the law.

All this just proved that you guys worry about yourselves individually. You could care less if everyone else has a bad life as long as you have a good one. This is the mentality that makes the rich richer, the poor poorer, and the world the garbage we live in.

[nelson9995]

Jimmy- please don't compare $11 years ago, to $7.25 today. HELL of a difference.

[BanginJimmy]

Jimmy- Yes, I have ambition. I have proved it over and over. I worked full time, and went to school fulltime (50 miles away, 100 miles roundtrip, 3 times a week) for 4 years, having jobs where I worked 40-60 hrs a week. I have a good job, and an education. But, I have seen myself at some of those minimum wage jobs prior to this. I can tell you, the work you do, the pressure you have, and the pace you are worked in is DEFINETELY worth more than $7/hr. These people may not do a job that is more important than yours, but they sure do work harder.

I worked at a bakery (sugarfoods which is a huge restaurant supplier) making $8 an hour from 4am to 3pm Monday-saturday. I had to bag 55 bags a minute and if you fell behind things would start falling on the floor. I literally got sore working there. My back hurted daily, my hands would cramp. Hell, I caught myself sweating most of the time. You think $8 is fair?
Employees would complain about it to managers, supervisors, etc... All they asked was for the speed to be reduced just a bit. Their answer was always; "We'd be losing money. It's a job, and you don't have to do it." I lol'ed at them when they told that to a few woman that worked there for years, who were already having back problems. I literally just wished I could somehow see him outside and not get in trouble with the law.

All this just proved that you guys worry about yourselves individually. You could care less if everyone else has a bad life as long as you have a good one. This is the mentality that makes the rich richer, the poor poorer, and the world the garbage we live in.


So you think just because the job made you work hard it was worth more? It was still a brianless job anyone could do, therefore it doesnt pay anything. Get a job that requires even a minimum of brains and you get paid better.

If you didnt like the job, quit. No one forced you to work there.

[BanginJimmy]

Jimmy- please don't compare $11 years ago, to $7.25 today. HELL of a difference.

The point is that for someone to make that money while living at home and going to school is perfectly doable.

[ftp]

Jimmy- Yes, I have ambition. I have proved it over and over. I worked full time, and went to school fulltime (50 miles away, 100 miles roundtrip, 3 times a week) for 4 years, having jobs where I worked 40-60 hrs a week. I have a good job, and an education. But, I have seen myself at some of those minimum wage jobs prior to this. I can tell you, the work you do, the pressure you have, and the pace you are worked in is DEFINETELY worth more than $7/hr. These people may not do a job that is more important than yours, but they sure do work harder.

I worked at a bakery (sugarfoods which is a huge restaurant supplier) making $8 an hour from 4am to 3pm Monday-saturday. I had to bag 55 bags a minute and if you fell behind things would start falling on the floor. I literally got sore working there. My back hurted daily, my hands would cramp. Hell, I caught myself sweating most of the time. You think $8 is fair?
Employees would complain about it to managers, supervisors, etc... All they asked was for the speed to be reduced just a bit. Their answer was always; "We'd be losing money. It's a job, and you don't have to do it." I lol'ed at them when they told that to a few woman that worked there for years, who were already having back problems. I literally just wished I could somehow see him outside and not get in trouble with the law.

All this just proved that you guys worry about yourselves individually. You could care less if everyone else has a bad life as long as you have a good one. This is the mentality that makes the rich richer, the poor poorer, and the world the garbage we live in. every person that is an AMERICAN citizen has the capacity to make themselves into anything they want to be. This is the land of opportunity but too many people would rather not have a purpose or drive in life and live in poverty because its the "easy way".. Why should I have sympathy for laziness? Why should I have to pay for others to be lazy and general bottom feeders?

[nelson9995]

Let's see how much fast food, bread, water, etc... you would be able to consume if these "slaves" weren't around. I bet you would go nuts if these "lazy" people weren't there to do what you guys won't do because it's for lazy, brainless people.

My point is, why should a CEO make billions/millions a year in profit while his employees are being exploited making $7.25? You guys are all for it. I'm not. I say screw the CEO and make him pay his employees a fair wage. He's still a millionaire and will continue to profit millions.

I'm not against being a business owner. I'm against the way they run things. My goal is to have my own business within the next 7 years, and make a difference. I can guarantee you that if I'm successfull, my workers will make decent money and be worked at a decent pace. If I have to sacrifice some of my profit while still being successfull and have a good life, I will. That's the way I am and was raised. The world would be a much better place if everyone had this mentality.

[BanginJimmy]

Let's see how much fast food, bread, water, etc... you would be able to consume if these "slaves" weren't around. I bet you would go nuts if these "lazy" people weren't there to do what you guys won't do because it's for lazy, brainless people.


Now that you say that, I think we should raise the minimum wage to $40/hr. That way fast food drive throughs wont go unmanned. I dont know hwo they can keep them open now considering the 'slave' wages they pay for such demanding work.

[nelson9995]

Now that you say that, I think we should raise the minimum wage to $40/hr. That way fast food drive throughs wont go unmanned. I dont know hwo they can keep them open now considering the 'slave' wages they pay for such demanding work.

$40? are you serious? lol. Come on dude, I never even came close to thinking an amount not even half of that.

I would say $9-10. is a good minimum wage. Mcdonald's is a joke anyways. Managers make $8.25 in my town LOL.
People in Mcdonalds don't work as hard as people in factories making $8. This is what I mostly target.

[BanginJimmy]

$40? are you serious? lol. Come on dude, I never even came close to thinking an amount not even half of that.

I would say $9-10. is a good minimum wage. Mcdonald's is a joke anyways. Managers make $8.25 in my town LOL.
People in Mcdonalds don't work as hard as people in factories making $8. This is what I mostly target.

After I got out of the military I worked in a small factory and I negotiated and went from $8/hr to $10/hr. I learned quickly why most of the people there were making that little money. Most were complete idiots and almost none of them had even a HS diploma.

The simple fact is that you make what you deserve, and if you feel you should be making more, move on to another job where you do make more money.

[Sinfix_15]

$40? are you serious? lol. Come on dude, I never even came close to thinking an amount not even half of that.

I would say $9-10. is a good minimum wage. Mcdonald's is a joke anyways. Managers make $8.25 in my town LOL.
People in Mcdonalds don't work as hard as people in factories making $8. This is what I mostly target.

The point he is trying to make is that the pay rates are what they are and there is no shortage of people applying for those jobs. So you think you're worth more than $8.25 at mcdonalds and quit. 15 more people apply the next day. Why should a CEO be forced to hire people at X amount when so many willingly volunteer to work for less and are happy to do it?

You cant judge your worth by how hard you work because labor isnt what is valuable and labor is easily replaced. If we're going to start paying people for how hard they work, then lets put doctors and lawyers at $10hr and start paying ditch diggers and road workers 500k a year.

[Sinfix_15]

My dad had a 72 chevelle that his dad gave him. He loved the car and never changed anything on it. He just drove it the way it was. One day it started spitting and sputtering and he couldnt figure out why. He took the car to the local chevy dealership and asked them to fix it. He expressed that the car was his dad's old car and that only the best mechanic that they had working there could work on it. They insured him that only their best man would touch the car. The dealership's head mechanic came out and listened to the car, pulled a screw driver out of his pocket, turned one screw on the carb and the car started running perfectly. Thrilled, my dad asked the mechanic what he owed. The mechanic said "$85.00". My dad responded "$85??? youre gonna charge me $85 for turning one screw????" the mechanic replied "No sir, i didnt charge you anything for turning the screw, i charged you $85 for knowing which screw to turn".



Nothing in this story is true..... but it makes my point. You dont get paid for working hard. You get paid for providing a service that others are incapable of or unwilling of doing themselves. The labor has no effect on the value of a service.

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The point he is trying to make is that the pay rates are what they are and there is no shortage of people applying for those jobs. So you think you're worth more than $8.25 at mcdonalds and quit. 15 more people apply the next day. Why should a CEO be forced to hire people at X amount when so many willingly volunteer to work for less and are happy to do it?

You cant judge your worth by how hard you work because labor isnt what is valuable and labor is easily replaced. If we're going to start paying people for how hard they work, then lets put doctors and lawyers at $10hr and start paying ditch diggers and road workers 500k a year.

So, since its not about labor, and simply about skill, what do you think about paying teachers multi millions?

[BanginJimmy]

So, since its not about labor, and simply about skill, what do you think about paying teachers multi millions?

Teachers unions have blocked attempts for results based bonuses and raises for years. Unless you think all teachers are worth the money.

[Sinfix_15]

So, since its not about labor, and simply about skill, what do you think about paying teachers multi millions?

Some teachers are more qualified than others. There's lesson plans and guides for them to follow. Some of them are simply managing a class room and following their lesson plan, theyre not teaching what they know. Works the same as any other job.... a guy who changes oil doesnt get paid the same as Chip Foose. A 7th grade teacher who prints work sheets out of a lesson plan doesnt get paid as much as a professor at Yale.

College professors make 80-200k a year, the big time colleges list their "avg professor" pay rates all above 190k... they can also get paid for lectures or publications they do.

[Sinfix_15]

dbl post

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Some teachers are more qualified than others. There's lesson plans and guides for them to follow. Some of them are simply managing a class room and following their lesson plan, theyre not teaching what they know. Works the same as any other job.... a guy who changes oil doesnt get paid the same as Chip Foose. A 7th grade teacher who prints work sheets out of a lesson plan doesnt get paid as much as a professor at Yale.

College professors make 80-200k a year, the big time colleges list their "avg professor" pay rates all above 190k... they can also get paid for lectures or publications they do.Who do you think makes lesson plans? LOL. I can see you dont know any teachers. Typically they make their own lesson plans.

[Sinfix_15]

Who do you think makes lesson plans? LOL. I can see you dont know any teachers. Typically they make their own lesson plans.

Knowing a teacher wouldnt change it. Like anyone else..... they would act like their job was the hardest job in the world and boast about it's difficulty. I've actually known many teachers on a personal level. One of my life long friend's mom was a teacher when we were in high school and still is today. She graded papers and followed the lesson plans from the book. An exgf's mom was a sub teacher and she was a trailer park scumbag who sold weed to some of the students. One of my teacher's who i was friendly enough with to hang out as his house and even went on vacation with always talked about the female students he would bang... ironically.... this guy was probably the most difficult and influential teachers the school had. My old roommate's sister was a teacher. I've had a lot of "behind the scenes" time with teachers...

Some love their job and care about the students, some clock in and clock out. I'm not sure how to fix the problem. I dont think a pay raise would make the ones that dont care do any better.

[Vteckidd]

$40? are you serious? lol. Come on dude, I never even came close to thinking an amount not even half of that.

I would say $9-10. is a good minimum wage. Mcdonald's is a joke anyways. Managers make $8.25 in my town LOL.
People in Mcdonalds don't work as hard as people in factories making $8. This is what I mostly target.

INFLATION.

if you start paying workers inflated salaries, the COG go up exponentially. So your .99 cent value meal will become $2 . how do you guys not get this

[Vteckidd]

So, since its not about labor, and simply about skill, what do you think about paying teachers multi millions?

teachers SHOULD get paid more, they cuold be making in the 6 figures, but the Union keeps them from making good money. FACT. Watch WAITING FOR SUPERMAN

[alex14]

I make min wage, I live in a 3 bed 2 bath by myself, all 3 of my cars were paid for cash, I have a girlfriend, and I play paintball at the national level, and I mess with cars.

Dont make excuses, make moves. Stop looking for handouts and grind.

If you find someone selling a running 240 with a SR swap for $1000, are you gonna go get that bitch quick fast, or are you gonna go pay what its worth because he's selling it to cheap?

[bu villain]

Nelson, I agree with you that capitalism doesn't always lead to pricing of goods and labor I would consider "fair". However, I don't see any easy answers and I think raising minimum wage wouldn't help much as prices would adjust upwards to compensate. Despite what some others on here say, there is inefficiency in our labor market and there are many barriers that keep people from leaving a bad job (location, family, education, etc). If we want real world capitalism to behave closer to theory, we need to find ways to reduce those barriers.

[BanginJimmy]

Nelson, I agree with you that capitalism doesn't always lead to pricing of goods and labor I would consider "fair". However, I don't see any easy answers and I think raising minimum wage wouldn't help much as prices would adjust upwards to compensate. Despite what some others on here say, there is inefficiency in our labor market and there are many barriers that keep people from leaving a bad job (location, family, education, etc). If we want real world capitalism to behave closer to theory, we need to find ways to reduce those barriers.

Education is the biggest problem with people in low wage jobs. The vast majority ignored their education early in life and because of the terrible job done by schools and parents they were simply forwarded to the next grade without the tools to succeed. By the time they reach HS they are so far behind they simply give up and drop out. The same can be said of college. Kids with a poor HS education get to college and realize they are way behind and give up.