Are we blind, or playing stupid?

[nelson9995]

I’ve never seen so many Atheist in one place together so I took some time to put this together… Please read before posting and prove to me that the bible is BS’ing…
The bible was made over 2,000 years ago… It has been one of the only if not the only book to make it this far after it had been tried to be destroyed by many and erased from this earth… what do you guys see?

RFID (which has been talked about tremendously).... will get to a point where we will not be able to do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING without it… We won’t be able to buy or sell, period…

This May not be the best article but you can do some more research yourselves.
Mandatory

RFID Chip For All Americans With Biometrics by 2014 - Joseph Earnest — Houston News and World News - NewscastMedia.com (http://newscastmedia.com/blog/2010/11/17/mandatory-rfid-chip-for-all-americans-with-biometrics-by-2014/)

RFID Chip in Humans (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/rfid-chip-in-humans.html)

REVELATION 13;16
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

So what’s up with this… do we see a pattern… now check this out…
The Tribulation begins when Antichrist signs or renews a 7 year peace treaty with Israel. On the day of this event, the Tribulation begins and lasts for 7 years, or 2,520 days (30 days to a Biblical month). - Bible

Have you guys kept up with news… Do you guys know what Hillary Clinton and Obama will be doing September 15 of this year? Do you guys know what they are trying to force? You guessed it… a 7 year peace treaty with ISRAEL…

Bible talks about one money, one Gov’t… Look at United Nations… What keeps being talked about since the economy is so bad?
Amero? Yes, it has been created. One currency for whole world…

DO SOME RESEARCH…
So is this coincidence?

[Relentless]

Not a coincidence, it has been planned since day one my friend. But you cant always force people to believe. You just have to know what you are going to do.

[nelson9995]

Thank you. I know this. This is just to see if some people open their eyes.

[Relentless]

You see that name in my sig. Go on youtube and type it in, go to his channel. Tell me what you think.

[nelson9995]

I see... I know someone hispanic just like that. I'm glad we have these people to help us open our eyes.

[Relentless]

I see... I know someone hispanic just like that. I'm glad we have these people to help us open our eyes.
Indeed. I already made my plans, and for those who fail to believe, well, goodluck to them.

[nelson9995]

Indeed. I already made my plans, and for those who fail to believe, well, goodluck to them.

I feel the same way. May I ask what your plan is? We may just have the same plan.

[Relentless]

I feel the same way. May I ask what your plan is? We may just have the same plan.
I will message you.

[nelson9995]

sounds good.

[Jdm94Coupe]

Get a life. Just don't get it. :thinking:

"Implanted RFID will never be mandatory. Why are you trying to needlessly scare these people?

to everyone reading:

Someday soon, an implanted RFID device (at someone’s request, not MANDITORY) will

… help find a lost pet.
… help identify and return a lost child.
… help identify a “john doe” in a murder investigation.
… prevent patient misidentification / mismedication
… apprehend a violent escaped prisoner

there are some benefits… for those who decide to try out new technology."

[chaseamundo]

Subscribed

[Relentless]

Get a life. Just don't get it. :thinking:

"Implanted RFID will never be mandatory. Why are you trying to needlessly scare these people?

to everyone reading:

Someday soon, an implanted RFID device (at someone’s request, not MANDITORY) will

… help find a lost pet.
… help identify and return a lost child.
… help identify a “john doe” in a murder investigation.
… prevent patient misidentification / mismedication
… apprehend a violent escaped prisoner

there are some benefits… for those who decide to try out new technology."

Was that the only comment you read? You can't be serious.

[Jdm94Coupe]

If its a option. just dont get it.

[Relentless]

Yes, but in the long run its going to replace money because thats what they want, a cashless society. So when I refuse it, I'm going to end up starving, which doesn't really make it an option. Get where I'm coming from?

[quickdodge®]

Conspiracy theories are always a fun read. In this day and age with all the technological advances at our fingertips, it's nice that these theories exist as it proves that people still use their imaginations. Later, QD.

[nelson9995]

jdm94coupe had a weak ass comeback. It will be an option prior to 2014. DID YOU READ what happens in 2014? I guess not. Weak argument bro.
BTW... you think they are going to tell you its's a 666 chip? They don't even know it. The world is doing exactly what the bible says. The people making all this happen aren't doing it to "make it happen." They actually think it's a good thing because the above stated reasons. Once you put it on it's too late.

QD- It's like with Noah. he told everyone hop on, the world will flood. people didn't listen and they all drowned behind. All i can do is inform you guys. if you look at it as a fantastic story then IDK what kind of myth comes up with EXACT PREDICTIONS of something 2000 years later.

I have no time right now... but I will post links later when I do... United Nations has thousands of guillotines stored that they can't even explain why they have it? What are they for?
They also have a place where they have every type of seed, food, stored for when the world ends, so the ones left can try to restore the world.

This is all BS. Experts (atheist) agree that the world will end with fire soon. It's been all over history channel, discovery, etc... ATHEIST EXPERTS/SCIENTIST agree with what the bible is saying with scientific proof. DISCOVERY CHANNEL RECOGNIZES THE UNITED NATIONS as to where the Antichrist will rise from. AGAIN, ATHEIST JUST LIKE YOU GUYS, who happen to be scientists, predict EXACTLY what the bible says. What else do you guys need?

[BanginJimmy]

By any chance do you read a lot of Alex Jones?

[nelson9995]

No I do not. I just found out who that was last night.

[quickdodge®]

All i can do is inform you guys.

Good looking out.


if you look at it as a fantastic story then IDK what kind of myth comes up with EXACT PREDICTIONS of something 2000 years later.

A frog will "ribbit" in the Antarctic one day.

There. I made a prediction. Let's hope, someday, that this prediction will come true. See how easy that was? Later, QD.

[nelson9995]

Good looking out.



A frog will "ribbit" in the Antarctic one day.

There. I made a prediction. Let's hope, someday, that this prediction will come true. See how easy that was? Later, QD.

really? lol. well seems like you guys have no choice but to accept it since none of you can come back with a strong argument.

[quickdodge®]

really? lol. well seems like you guys have no choice but to accept it since none of you can come back with a strong argument.

Actually, it's not that a strong argument is needed. You're just reading so much into these theories that the simplest of explanations eludes you.

I'll try to spell it out for you a bit simpler. Anyone can make predictions and, given any amount of time, have it come true.

Prediction # 2: The tower in Pisa will fall.

Watch out, Nostradamus. Here I come. Lolol. Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

Oh boy...

[nelson9995]

lol. QD I give up with you.
Now, you are making a joke out of it.
Well, to conclude this, all the information I gave you guys is legit with legit sources. none of it was made up so there is no room for confusion. Believe it whether you want it or not. I know I do.

and BTW. The bible is not saying "the world will end." The bible is telling us it will end, how it will end, and the process of events that will cause it to end (with details). As the bible describes it, it is happening even by event, detail by detail. So sorry QD, but your predictions are NOTHING like the bible's.

[.blank cd]

^ The bible is not a legit source, just so you know

[nelson9995]

so all these events happening aren't really happening? THOSE are the legit sources.
RFID is not real? and not as I described? It is all over the news.
So is the peace treaty.
The guillotines are hidden...but Discovery channel already spoke about this.

[D16T]

It anyone believes what the History or Discovery channel believes is retarded...I am a firm believer in the Bible and NO man can predict when end of time will come...It will come like a thief in the night...if ppl don't have a relationship with our creator you will have a very dark slippery path in life..the government is all about keeping world population down...look up chem trails,New World Ten Commandments in Elberton Ga....when the Temple is finished being built you know the time is near my friends...

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[quickdodge®]

Well, to conclude this, all the information I gave you guys is legit with legit sources. none of it was made up so there is no room for confusion. Believe it whether you want it or not. I know I do.

A couple of links is definite "legit" sources? Anyone can make up a website and put stuff in it. Just like anyone can make predictions.

Uh ohh.......I feel another one coming on......

Prediction #3: I predict a swarm of butterflies, a swarm the size of Botswana, emerging from the Southeast corner of Slovakia and making it's destructive way towards Madrid, Spain what with their beautiful colors and whatnot.

Is that more on the level of a "Biblical prediction?" Give it 2,000+/- years and it should come to be.


and BTW. The bible is not saying "the world will end." The bible is telling us it will end, how it will end, and the process of events that will cause it to end (with details). As the bible describes it, it is happening even by event, detail by detail. So sorry QD, but your predictions are NOTHING like the bible's.

Huh? How do you start off saying the Bible doesn't say the world will end and then finish up by saying how the Bible says the world will end?


if ppl don't have a relationship with our creator you will have a very dark slippery path in life.

Don't forget, this is what you believe, not necessarily what is so.


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

This is the truest thing posted in this thread. Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

if ppl don't have a relationship with our creator you will have a very dark slippery path in life.Seems my life actually got better when I told "our creator" to kick rocks

[nelson9995]

we don't know the exact time and date... but the bible clearly states the signs when the end of time are arriving, and these my friend are it... LMK if you don't agree so I can send you to them.

QD- I meant it doesn't just say it will end....
and those sites may not be the best like I said. You guys know what RFID is... You guys know it's coming, and you guys know it will be mandatory. Do your own research. In 2004, Bush signed the law. Keep reading and you will see EVERYTHING I have said is true.

[quickdodge®]

we don't know the exact time and date... but the bible clearly states the signs when the end of time are arriving, and these my friend are it... LMK if you don't agree so I can send you to them.

QD- I meant it doesn't just say it will end....

You say tomato........... Either way you say it, the Bible "predicts" Earth's demise. I'm not saying it won't happen, but damn dude, an open-ended prediction? You don't think it makes it kind of a no-brainer to predict something without needing to give specifics? I'm not going to tell you when it will happen, but Lake Lanier will dry up one day.


Keep reading and you will see EVERYTHING I have said is true.

True or not, there's no direct correlation to the Bible saying it will happen. I would hope that the day Lake Lanier dries up, no one will reflect back and say, "QD said this would happen. He knew this day was coming." Later, QD.

[Jdm94Coupe]

jdm94coupe had a weak ass comeback. It will be an option prior to 2014. DID YOU READ what happens in 2014? I guess not. Weak argument bro.

That dumb shit won't fly. Nobody can make you do anything you don't want to. I don't need a "comeback" for any of these ridiculous comments and bible mombo jombo. The bible is too general and has been changed and modified through time. Makes no sense to walk around reciting quotes from a old ass book. Haven't we grown smarter by now?


and BTW. The bible is not saying "the world will end." The bible is telling us it will end, how it will end, and the process of events that will cause it to end (with details). As the bible describes it, it is happening even by event, detail by detail. So sorry QD, but your predictions are NOTHING like the bible's.

WOW, you've lost it. Did you read what you wrote?

[Sinfix_15]

Thank you. I know this. This is just to see if some people open their eyes.

it opened my eyes..... and now i will use them to watch porn and tear a page out of my bible to roll one up.

[Sinfix_15]

Seems my life actually got better when I told "our creator" to kick rocks

Amen.

[nelson9995]

jdm94coupe- I gave you a chance until you said it will never be mandatory when one of the links I posted says it will be. A cashless world is coming want it or not. It will not be an option. Maybe at first. So that shows your ignorance.
't
qd- again you just said lake lanier will dry. You didn't say; "lake lanie will dry up when this and that starts happening. This and that will happen in this and that way"

sinfix I hope you really don't roll up with the bible's pages... But I already know you roll up and if you don't I'd be shocked. don't ask me how I know lol

[quickdodge®]

jdm94coupe- I gave you a chance until you said it will never be mandatory when one of the links I posted says it will be. A cashless world is coming want it or not.

When it is official, I'll believe this. Internet links aren't official. Do you believe every single web site that is out there? I remember a scare tactic a guy used on YouTube. He went and videotaped an alleged government mass coffin storage site. Scaring people that these were coffins made to hold up to 5(?) people. These were made for mass burials for the government. The place he went to? The plant is located about 5 miles from my house and is a factory where they make coffin liners. Not a storage ground for mass coffins. People will design anything to get a rise out of the public.

Why?

Because there is always someone out there who will buy into their garbage.


qd- again you just said lake lanier will dry. You didn't say; "lake lanie will dry up when this and that starts happening. This and that will happen in this and that way"

It doesn't matter how it got there. A prediction is a prediction. But here you go. The water will evaporate. Later, QD.

[Sinfix_15]

sinfix I hope you really don't roll up with the bible's pages... But I already know you roll up and if you don't I'd be shocked. don't ask me how I know lol

More common than you would think. So there's at least 1 reason to keep a bible laying around until Sam's Club starts selling a 1300 page family pack of papers and having people on bikes ride around your neighborhood and deliver them for free on weekends.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TpLq6iNFg9Q/TkvO7DFdCfI/AAAAAAAACKw/0mMkPJ3PvV0/s400/tumblr_lbohzcMvu81qaw6vxo1_400.jpg

[Sinfix_15]

Irony...........


I am a DIEHARD Tebow fan.

[Jdm94Coupe]

Irony...........


I am a DIEHARD Tebow fan.

Will he be starting?

[nelson9995]

When it is official, I'll believe this. Internet links aren't official. Do you believe every single web site that is out there? I remember a scare tactic a guy used on YouTube. He went and videotaped an alleged government mass coffin storage site. Scaring people that these were coffins made to hold up to 5(?) people. These were made for mass burials for the government. The place he went to? The plant is located about 5 miles from my house and is a factory where they make coffin liners. Not a storage ground for mass coffins. People will design anything to get a rise out of the public.

Why?

Because there is always someone out there who will buy into their garbage.



It doesn't matter how it got there. A prediction is a prediction. But here you go. The water will evaporate. Later, QD.

that was something I had to find for you guys. My primary sources are news channels, gov't speaking, etc... This is fact and when it's official it'll be too late. good luck to you all.

[southdakota]

Guys the world will end, 2012 anyways haha, it can't be mandatory because it's unconstitutional to religions. Jehovah witness' are not even allowed to draw blood

[bu villain]

RFID (which has been talked about tremendously).... will get to a point where we will not be able to do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING without it… We won’t be able to buy or sell, period…

REVELATION 13;16
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark,which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.


Just to focus on one issue at a time. Here are some inconcistencies with the RFID statement:

1. RFID isn't exactly a "mark". A "mark" is an extremely general term but it's hard to believe that an electronic device is considered a "mark"

2. The mark is the name or the number of the beast. RFID is neither the name or mark of the beast.

3. Revelations specifically says the mark will be on the right hand or forehead. Your linked article states "Rather than get a card, some could choose to have the chip implanted in their body, perhaps the wrist, shoulder, or wherever the recipient feels comfortable with it."

4. As of now this may become optional for one country. It's a huge leap to say that it is inevitable that this will be mandatory for all people on earth.

5. You can't just take a couple of lines out of the bible without context. Can you explain each verse leading up to the ones you quoted and how those are manifested in the current world? If RFID is such a clear example of the two lines you quoted, certainly you can do the same for the surrounding verses.

[bu villain]

This is fact and when it's official it'll be too late. good luck to you all.

Well if the bible says it is going to happen and the bible is 100% correct, isn't it already too late?

[nelson9995]

RFID will be implanted on the right hand or forehead... I will find you guys the legit source talking about it...

It is not too late because it has still not been mandatory.

Well, if you were christian or have ever been around it you will know that devil works in smart ways. (if you believe). The devil doesn't tell you hey look at that hot women don't have sex with her. He will put a sexy women in front of you which you would drool over.
You will not be told it's a 666 chip. heck, it would become official that it's a 666 chip after the first 3.5 years when the antichrist declares himself the antichrist.

[.blank cd]

We need a legit, NON BIBLICAL source to confirm.

[E36slide]

Lol so I guess if we don't believe in the christian views or bible we are atheist. Well add me to the list. Many people have died because of this said book (bible) we force our religion on people that's why its still around.

Scientology all the way :)

The chip thing..... that's just creepy. Another way to be controlled by our government.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[Vteckidd]

I think you need a lot of tinfoil to make hats for you an your people.

[E36slide]

I think you need a lot of tinfoil to make hats for you an your people.

No I just believe in evolution not aliens. I believe in proof.... not the idea of some super being waving his hand and creating a being out pf thin air. What's the difference between god and aliens?

Answer: nothing because neither one has been proven or not proven to exists.

If you were told anything about the bible and read it for the first time you would think its a fairy tale.

Religion: a way to make money.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[.blank cd]

I think you need a lot of tinfoil to make hats for you an your people.

Best advice in this thread.

Makes me think about investing in aluminum futures. You with me?

[nelson9995]

lol. you guys are funny.

[Sinfix_15]

RFID will be implanted on the right hand or forehead... I will find you guys the legit source talking about it...

It is not too late because it has still not been mandatory.

Well, if you were christian or have ever been around it you will know that devil works in smart ways. (if you believe). The devil doesn't tell you hey look at that hot women don't have sex with her. He will put a sexy women in front of you which you would drool over.
You will not be told it's a 666 chip. heck, it would become official that it's a 666 chip after the first 3.5 years when the antichrist declares himself the antichrist.

I'd trade my soul for unlimited ability to play the guitar, wolverine's healing powers and a bag of those pills from limitless. The Devil has no need to trick me.

Devil.... if you're out there......... please respond.

[Sinfix_15]

actually shit.... those limitless pills would teach me how to play the guitar....

hmmm.... gotta think of somethin else.

[RandomGuy]

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
This is the truest thing posted in this thread. Later, QD.
LMAO :lmfao:

[geoff]

Nelson9995: first of all let me say kudos to you for sharing your concerns and beliefs. It takes guts to do so in a time when Christianity has become a mockery. I have voiced my opinions many times on this site about my faith and beliefs only to have it fall on deaf ears and others make fun. But you would be surprised to find that few do take interest and begin a search of self discovery and what faith means to them. So, once again I say good job and stay strong in the faith.

Now, I firmly believe that the RFID chip is not the mark of the beast talked about in Revelations. Many get caught up on a few select words,"...and none shall be able to buy or sell without it" and look at how technology has advanced and where it's headed and get scared. They see debit cards and online banking, take those select words, and assume the mark is the RFID chip because it could be used to store/control financial information. Those who believe this are missing the point and bigger picture. The mark is not a financial control tool of the government/Antichrist. It is about worship. The devil wants worship, something reserved only for God alone. Those who worship the beast and denounce Christ shall receive the mark of the beast on the hand or forehead. It is a visible symbol of allegiance to the beast and his government/ruling body. As his kingdom shall be given rule over the earth, one without allegiance to him can not buy or sell or live as a citizen in his society. The mark symbolizes false worship and is the devil insulting God. It will be a seal much like how Gods people will recieve a seal, which I believe is the Holy Spirit. It will not be mandatory, humanity was given free will and will be able to choose with whom they give their allegiance to. It will be simple, those who wish to live "normal" lives under the unholy regime will be offered the mark and life will go on as they knew it. Those who refuse will be labeled as "terrorists" and a part of the "problem". They will be sought after and persecuted as enemies of the state.

Those who choose to make a mockery of this, scoff, and turn their eyes from truth; it is their choice. It does not change facts or what is to come. As far as the end time prophecies being vague and open ended; you are highly uneducated in scripture and your comments show it. Revelations goes into great detail about events that have yet to take place. There are many other prophecies in the Old Testament and New that go into great detail about things passed, present, and future; books like Daniel. Trust me, you don't want to get in this debate with me. You say the bible is skewed and misinterpreted; read a Hebrew/English Bible and you will see how wrong you are. The Bible can be tested Historically and by eye witness testimony as to it's validity. Science does not have all the answers nor methods to prove or disprove events of people's experience, events, or lives. For that one must go to a different area of expertise...history. One last thing, faith is something that grows from the size of a mustard seed to a life consuming belief that one would literally lay their life down for. Many have died for a belief in their religion or God. None has laid down his life for a belief in nothing. With that said, the Bible can be picked up and read by the layman to be understood simply. It takes one with spiritual maturity and faith to delve deeper and harness the message of God. The apostle Paul described the difference as milk to babes for the layman and meat and nourishment the the spiritually seasoned. In that regard, I don't expect any of you to understand it much like a physicist wouldn't expect me to understand his life's research. You lack faith and as such are ignorant to the ways of God Almighty. God bless and may He open you up spiritually, un-harden your hearts, and guide you to truth.

[Sinfix_15]

Nelson9995: first of all let me say kudos to you for sharing your concerns and beliefs. It takes guts to do so in a time when Christianity has become a mockery. I have voiced my opinions many times on this site about my faith and beliefs only to have it fall on deaf ears and others make fun. But you would be surprised to find that few do take interest and begin a search of self discovery and what faith means to them. So, once again I say good job and stay strong in the faith.

Now, I firmly believe that the RFID chip is not the mark of the beast talked about in Revelations. Many get caught up on a few select words,"...and none shall be able to buy or sell without it" and look at how technology has advanced and where it's headed and get scared. They see debit cards and online banking, take those select words, and assume the mark is the RFID chip because it could be used to store/control financial information. Those who believe this are missing the point and bigger picture. The mark is not a financial control tool of the government/Antichrist. It is about worship. The devil wants worship, something reserved only for God alone. Those who worship the beast and denounce Christ shall receive the mark of the beast on the hand or forehead. It is a visible symbol of allegiance to the beast and his government/ruling body. As his kingdom shall be given rule over the earth, one without allegiance to him can not buy or sell or live as a citizen in his society. The mark symbolizes false worship and is the devil insulting God. It will be a seal much like how Gods people will recieve a seal, which I believe is the Holy Spirit. It will not be mandatory, humanity was given free will and will be able to choose with whom they give their allegiance to. It will be simple, those who wish to live "normal" lives under the unholy regime will be offered the mark and life will go on as they knew it. Those who refuse will be labeled as "terrorists" and a part of the "problem". They will be sought after and persecuted as enemies of the state.

Those who choose to make a mockery of this, scoff, and turn their eyes from truth; it is their choice. It does not change facts or what is to come. As far as the end time prophecies being vague and open ended; you are highly uneducated in scripture and your comments show it. Revelations goes into great detail about events that have yet to take place. There are many other prophecies in the Old Testament and New that go into great detail about things passed, present, and future; books like Daniel. Trust me, you don't want to get in this debate with me. You say the bible is skewed and misinterpreted; read a Hebrew/English Bible and you will see how wrong you are. The Bible can be tested Historically and by eye witness testimony as to it's validity. Science does not have all the answers nor methods to prove or disprove events of people's experience, events, or lives. For that one must go to a different area of expertise...history. One last thing, faith is something that grows from the size of a mustard seed to a life consuming belief that one would literally lay their life down for. Many have died for a belief in their religion or God. None has laid down his life for a belief in nothing. With that said, the Bible can be picked up and read by the layman to be understood simply. It takes one with spiritual maturity and faith to delve deeper and harness the message of God. The apostle Paul described the difference as milk to babes for the layman and meat and nourishment the the spiritually seasoned. In that regard, I don't expect any of you to understand it much like a physicist wouldn't expect me to understand his life's research. You lack faith and as such are ignorant to the ways of God Almighty. God bless and may He open you up spiritually, un-harden your hearts, and guide you to truth.


I find a lot of what you have to say very interesting even though i do not believe in any of it. Care to translate a few scriptures for me that i might possibly be misunderstanding?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Exodus 21:7-11

[JDMEK18]

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[.blank cd]

Oh boy

[geoff]

Sinfix: forgive me but I seem to be missing your point and am confused as to what you are misunderstanding in those scriptures. The examples you gave me were references to laws that governed the people of Israel some 3000-4000 years ago. Also, I find your statement that you find it interesting but don't believe any of it very curious...

[.blank cd]

Also, I find your statement that you find it interesting but don't believe any of it very curious...The same way "Where The Wild Things Are" was interesting as a child, but he doesn't actually believe the "wild things" are actually real.

[geoff]

"where the wild things are" was a fictiscious work of entertainment and was understood as such. The Holy Bible was a fact based book meant as the inspirational word of God. It can be corroborated through history and eye witness testimony. Your lack of spiritual understanding mirrors your poor judgement of political allegiance...but one can't expect much from a liberal or one that has no knowledge of the Bible.

[.blank cd]

The same way your lack of adhesion of the English language mirrors your political allegiance? Lol. I pity you Christian conservatives. Your "party of freedom" is actually the "party of freedom, unless I disagree with it" and not the party of reality.

The bible is based on few historical accuracies and is mainly a work of fiction

[geoff]

My faith has nothing to do with my political views. I made the reference to show you lack understanding. How can the bible be both a historically accurate document and purely fictiscious? The Bible can not be read cover to cover like one would read "twighlight". To truly understand it you must also look into the history of that time period, the society, and more importantly; it must be read through a spiritual mind set. Tell me, what do you know of Christianity, of the Christian-Judaic God, and of the message of the book itself. I will wait for your reply, then we shall see just how much you actually understand.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: forgive me but I seem to be missing your point and am confused as to what you are misunderstanding in those scriptures. The examples you gave me were references to laws that governed the people of Israel some 3000-4000 years ago. Also, I find your statement that you find it interesting but don't believe any of it very curious...

yeah, this is the typical answer a christian gives when faced with these type of scriptures. It's the answer i expected you to give and the answer i already knew.

So now i ask you this....... Once upon a time, the bible was ok with slavery and rape because those were the laws of the land "3000-4000 years ago"... so we've established that the bible can adapt. Rape and slavery is no longer acceptable, so christians toss that part of the bible to the side. So, if the bible was once ok with slavery and rape because it was acceptable in society, why do christians try so hard to stonewall parts of modern society? Christians in today's world reject a lot of things that are commonly accepted. If the president of the united stats is ok with stem cell research and gay marriage, why do christians oppose it? Is gay marriage, stem cell research or abortion worse than the rape and slavery that was acceptable in the bible back when that was the law of the land? When rape was allowed by law, the bible accepted it. Abortion is legal, whats the problem?



BlankCD answered the other question for me...... i read the bible the same way i would read a spiderman comic book, i find the stories fascinating and in the same way a sunday morning cartoon can deliver a meaningful message without being real, so can the bible. The bible for it's merits can be used as a tool of guidance, but the stories inside of it are far from facts.

[nelson9995]

yeah, this is the typical answer a christian gives when faced with these type of scriptures. It's the answer i expected you to give and the answer i already knew.

So now i ask you this....... Once upon a time, the bible was ok with slavery and rape because those were the laws of the land "3000-4000 years ago"... so we've established that the bible can adapt. Rape and slavery is no longer acceptable, so christians toss that part of the bible to the side. So, if the bible was once ok with slavery and rape because it was acceptable in society, why do christians try so hard to stonewall parts of modern society? Christians in today's world reject a lot of things that are commonly accepted. If the president of the united stats is ok with stem cell research and gay marriage, why do christians oppose it? Is gay marriage, stem cell research or abortion worse than the rape and slavery that was acceptable in the bible back when that was the law of the land? When rape was allowed by law, the bible accepted it. Abortion is legal, whats the problem?



BlankCD answered the other question for me...... i read the bible the same way i would read a spiderman comic book, i find the stories fascinating and in the same way a sunday morning cartoon can deliver a meaningful message without being real, so can the bible. The bible for it's merits can be used as a tool of guidance, but the stories inside of it are far from facts.

DO NOT use the old testament against us. That's how things were BC. AC is the new testament. Which is what we ought to follow.

[nelson9995]

and Geoff, would you mind telling me the events that have yet to happen?

[Sinfix_15]

DO NOT use the old testament against us. That's how things were BC. AC is the new testament. Which is what we ought to follow.

says who? who is making these decisions?

why would the bible change? who gave the authority for it to change? where in the bible does it accept the changing or discrediting of any part of the bible?

if the bible changed then, why cant it change now to accept modern culture?



http://www.reverendfun.com/add_toon_info.php?date=20041101&language=en

[Sinfix_15]

lets continue this bible study a little further...... since your answer to the old testament was "that is the OLD testament"..... how about these verses, perhaps i am again misinterpreting the bible when i read it. To me, these messages are very clear.

Luke 16:17

Matthew 5:17

John 10:35

[geoff]

Sinfix: you do seem to be missing something. Yes slavery was ok in Pld Testament times but there were strict laws to govern it. Slaves were to be treated well, fed, and taken care of. Every 7 years a slave was to be forgiven their debt and freed. Slaves back then were either conquered enemies or men who sold themselves into it. Keep in mind also that slavery was only out lawned in the states in the mid 1800s. Slaves in the modern times were not treated well and were very much abused. So again I think you missed something. As far as rape goes, I think you are misunderstanding again. It is never condoned in the Bible. There was always a punishment for crime and consequences. The punishments might have been different from modern times but sin/crime was never accepted in the Bible. Theses people lived in an uncivilized and sometime barbaric world. Their laws are different because it is set in a different time and their judicial system is a precursor to our own modern system. I hope that makes some kind of sense.

As far as what nelson9995 said, he is also misinformed or misunderstanding something. The New Testament does not make the Old void ( Jesus Himself said this ). The Old Testament was the school master, the New was the fulfilling of it. The Old Testament had the 10 commandments and many other rules and traditions and regulations. Jesus said that all the commandments could be summed into these, " love thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength. The second to love your neighbor as yourself." if one could keep these two commandments then they would fulfill all the Mosaic Law. The entire message of the Old Testament was a promise of the Messiah. Jesus came and fulfilled that promise because man could not keep or live up to the Law. For the Law brought forth the knowledge of sin and with it death. Jesus brought grace and with grace, life.

Nelson9995: what prophecies of end times have been fulfilled as of this day 7/11/12? What has come to pass is are the signs of the times; i.e. wars, disaster, pestilence, ect...the Revelation of John is a two fold message. The first for the persecuted church of his time ( around 50ad-100ad) and the second was for the future generation that shall witness the second coming of Christ. If you want to see end time prophecy fulfillment, look to the book of Daniel wich has greatly detailed prophecy.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I believe i answered your questions regarding the scriptures in Matthew, Luke, and John with my above post. But I will attempt to go into further detail below.

Matthew 5:17- “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Simple really, if you have any understanding of the Old Testament and how the men of this time "got right with God" you would understand this scripture. See my above comments to get this answer.

Luke 16:17-"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." In this instance Jesus is stating to the Pharises that the Old Testament Law is not void. They aimed to say He was a blasphemer for not following their laws. He was telling them He is the Messiah, yet they remained blind and chose not to see.

John 10:35-"If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside " To understand this one must simply read the scriptures around it....as such below-
John 10:30-38-" I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

When you have the entirety of the scripture it makes sense now. Please don't get offended to what I am about to say next because that is not my intention. I understand now what your problem is. It is not that you are confused about anything. For you to be confused would mean that you read the scriptures and simply could not understand or comprehend what was said. That is a common mistake that after more careful reading and study, one will understand. Your problem is this, you are guilty as every atheist is of treating the Bible as a buffet. You pick and chose certain scriptures and take them out of context to support your argument. You probably entered some phrase into google to find scriptures to match what you wanted to say, found them on some atheist supporting website by a man or group that they themselves know nothing of scripture, and then you pasted it here. The problem is that you have no desire to know the truth nor do you care to research yourself the accuracy of the statements you make. You are following the argument of someone before you and in all honesty it is quite lame. Have a mind of your own and find something that is relevant. Continuing to do as you have been only shows a weak argument.

I know I am right with my interpretation of you, to test it i will simply ask you for something simple. Tell me what you know or believe you know about the Old Testament and New Testament. Simply, tell me how the men in the Old Testament sought salvation and tell me how men in the New Testament did so.

[geoff]

By the way, the Bible nor its message changed. It flowed like a river with a start and finish point and for lack of a better term..."evolved" over time. It has never been tailored to the society of the times nor has it been tweaked to match the beliefs of modern society. Sorry to burst your bubble but the Bible has remained the same from begining to end since the day it was written.

[nelson9995]

Sinfix: you do seem to be missing something. Yes slavery was ok in Pld Testament times but there were strict laws to govern it. Slaves were to be treated well, fed, and taken care of. Every 7 years a slave was to be forgiven their debt and freed. Slaves back then were either conquered enemies or men who sold themselves into it. Keep in mind also that slavery was only out lawned in the states in the mid 1800s. Slaves in the modern times were not treated well and were very much abused. So again I think you missed something. As far as rape goes, I think you are misunderstanding again. It is never condoned in the Bible. There was always a punishment for crime and consequences. The punishments might have been different from modern times but sin/crime was never accepted in the Bible. Theses people lived in an uncivilized and sometime barbaric world. Their laws are different because it is set in a different time and their judicial system is a precursor to our own modern system. I hope that makes some kind of sense.

As far as what nelson9995 said, he is also misinformed or misunderstanding something. The New Testament does not make the Old void ( Jesus Himself said this ). The Old Testament was the school master, the New was the fulfilling of it. The Old Testament had the 10 commandments and many other rules and traditions and regulations. Jesus said that all the commandments could be summed into these, " love thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength. The second to love your neighbor as yourself." if one could keep these two commandments then they would fulfill all the Mosaic Law. The entire message of the Old Testament was a promise of the Messiah. Jesus came and fulfilled that promise because man could not keep or live up to the Law. For the Law brought forth the knowledge of sin and with it death. Jesus brought grace and with grace, life.

Nelson9995: what prophecies of end times have been fulfilled as of this day 7/11/12? What has come to pass is are the signs of the times; i.e. wars, disaster, pestilence, ect...the Revelation of John is a two fold message. The first for the persecuted church of his time ( around 50ad-100ad) and the second was for the future generation that shall witness the second coming of Christ. If you want to see end time prophecy fulfillment, look to the book of Daniel wich has greatly detailed prophecy.

you my friend are lost...
bible states that in the last times the earth would warm...
thousands of birds and fish would die... have you not seen what has happened the last 2 years?
w.o the RFID you won't be able to buy or sell?? so how can it nto be what the bible is talking about. It states in the right hand, or forehead. Same way it will be.
How about the white horse in egypt?
How about the 7 peace treaty that israel is being pressured to enter, when the bible clearly states that once the 7 year peace treaty is signed, church will be lifted.
Should I continue? I can bring at least 5 more.

[.blank cd]

By the way, the Bible nor its message changed. It flowed like a river with a start and finish point and for lack of a better term..."evolved" over time. It has never been tailored to the society of the times nor has it been tweaked to match the beliefs of modern society. Sorry to burst your bubble but the Bible has remained the same from begining to end since the day it was written.How can you say this knowing the bible has been edited and re edited and re re edited and translated and revised, and then translated into english, all for you to interpret it the way you want to?

Or did you not know that?

So you admit that the bible's message is pretty much irrelevant in this modern age, now that we don't live in a remotely barbaric or regressive society anymore?

[.blank cd]

you my friend are lost...
bible states that...Let me stop you right here. The bible says a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that they're true

[nelson9995]

me and geoff are talking about the bible and I am stating what the bible states. Nothing else.

[geoff]

Blank: nowhere did I say the Bible is irrelevant to modern times. I was describing the life of Old Testament civilization and the laws they followed. How you got that I said the Bible is irrelevant astounds me. You sir have absolutely no knowledge of the history of that time period and even less about scripture. Not an insult, just stating the obvious. If you disagree than by all means share your insight with me. Can you tell me how the Israelites obtained salvation in the Old Testament? If you cannot then every word you add to this discussion from here on out is irrelevant.

Nelson9995: my friend I'm not trying to insult you. I agree we are in the last days, the signs of the times and fulfilled prophecy shows it. The book of Revelations is not a simple read. As I stated before, it is a two fold message. The prophecies laid out in it have not come to pass. They begin when tribulation begins and continue through to the final judgement. The time is close yes, but the treaty, the rebuilding of the temple, the mark, ect....are still to come. Dark times and persecution lye ahead and you and I should be prepared at all times spiritually. What are your beliefs about the soon to come catching away of the saints, or as known as the rapture?

[geoff]

Blank: also, where is it said or proven that the Bible has been re-edited or revised? Never has this been done. Has it been translated to other languages...yes, has the English version been translated again to make the reading more simple...yes. But, the message was never changed or revised. How do I know this? Simple, you can read a Hebrew or Greek Bible ( the actual language used by the authors and first Jews/Christians, grab a Hebrew to English dictionary, and then determine for yourself how accurate the Scriptures are. Your argument has been put to rest when they discovered the dead sea scrolls. Documents in it were the earliest copies ever found and are extremely accurate in translation and message. The Word of God remains the same through out time and will continue to do so...how man relates to it and how he applies it are a different thing. One seeking truth only needs to read the scripture for themselves.

[.blank cd]

The bible in its current form has been revised and edited and translated many times. This is an undisputed historical fact by all theologians. Do you not know this?

[geoff]

Show me a historian or theologian that says this. Translated yes, but edited or revised no.aube you are not clear on the difference between those words. As I said before, the dead sea scrolls have put this argument to rest. You still havent answered my question on how Old Testament believers obtained salvation.

By the way, don't try an post some link to an atheist site or article. Your kind lacks any knowledge of scripture.

[accrdpusha]

Apple is the antichrist. Look at its logo and think about Adam and Eve. I know, completely unrelated but interesting to think about.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[quickdodge®]

Those who choose to make a mockery of this, scoff, and turn their eyes from truth; it is their choice.

Correct word usage would be faith or belief. Not truth. There is a difference.


The Holy Bible was a fact based book meant as the inspirational word of God.

I can agree with the latter, but certainly not the former. Inspirational word of God? Sure, I can go with that. Fact based. Not sure about that.


How can the bible be both a historically accurate document and purely fictiscious?

Ask the author. Later, QD.

[dc5-rsx]

So who in this thread been snouting bath salts?

Sent From Tha Milky Way Galaxy 2

[geoff]

To me if a story can be corroborated historically and by eye witness account then it is fact. The funny thing about atheists/agnostics is that they offer no intelligent rebuttals nor do they display any knowledge of the scripture or belief that they refute. It's always the same, " no that's not true, that never happened, you're stupid" remark. Makes me laugh, then troubled because you don't even know what belief you deny and mock. The best strategy in warfare is to know thy enemy. Obviously this isn't war but rather a debate. Same thing still applies, know thy opposition. Your side lacks knowledge of what you refute, plain and simple

[quickdodge®]

To me if a story can be corroborated historically and by eye witness account then it is fact.

True in a sense. But not in this case.


The funny thing about atheists/agnostics is that they offer no intelligent rebuttals ...

What's equally humorous is when "Christian" people get their beliefs questioned, they immediately fall back on insulting the other. Funnier still is reading what they want to read.


It's always the same, " no that's not true, that never happened, you're stupid" remark.

Huh? I never said it wasn't true. I simply ask for proof. Unlike yourself, I've never outright insulted your intelligence.


The best strategy in warfare is to know thy enemy. Obviously this isn't war but rather a debate. Same thing still applies, know thy opposition.

Who said anything about this being a war? As far as I'm concerned, it's been a debate the entire time.


Your side lacks knowledge of what you refute, plain and simple

My side? And you make me laugh at times, too, Geoff. I wonder how the tables would be turned if I fought fire with fire and started to insult you. Next time, I think we'll see.

I will say, though, just because I don't sit down and study scriptures, does not make me an idiot. Far from it, I might add. Later, QD.

[geoff]

quickdodge: I mean no insult to you. If i came off that way then I apologize. What I was getting at was this, you really don't know much on the subject of the Bible or the scriptures. How then can you refute something you lack knowledge of?


True in a sense. But not in this case. Why? If this document is corroborated by history and eye witness account then whats the problem? Not every story or every person in the Bible can be corroborated by history, I admit that, but is that to say that every single document from every period of history has been discovered? I think not. The reason the Bible isn't accepted is simply due to the claims that it makes.


What's equally humorous is when "Christian" people get their beliefs questioned, they immediately fall back on insulting the other. Funnier still is reading what they want to read.
Like I said, no insult was intended. But the fact remains, you do not have an extensive knowledge of the Bible or what the scriptures say. If I am wrong then please demonstrate the extent of your knowledge on this subject.


Huh? I never said it wasn't true. I simply ask for proof. Unlike yourself, I've never outright insulted your intelligence.
If I gave you historical evidence or eyewitness accounts of events/people of the Bible....would that be enough for you?


Who said anything about this being a war? As far as I'm concerned, it's been a debate the entire time.
Come on QD....you know what I meant by this. I know your side of it....do you know mine?



I completely agree with you. But, to say a man has no knowledge of a particular subject is no insult...it is simply true. I didn't question your overall intelligence....just your knowledge of scripture. I personally would not be offended if you said the same of me and early model civics....the fact is that you probably know more about them than i do.

Alas, my challenge goes out to you as well QD...I asked those with opposing views what their personal knowledge of scripture was. So, the same goes to you sir....tell me please how one in the Old Testament obtained salvation. If you can not answer this simple question then you show a lack of understanding and comprehension of scripture...therefore you really have no argument to debate with me on this subject. Once again, I'm not trying to insult you; but when someone wishes to debate this subject with me and make me out to be some kind of fool or moron for my beliefs and they demonstrate ignorance of the subject I will by all means make them out to be as foolish as their statements.

[Jdmdc2kid]

calm on you guys this is a car import site

[.blank cd]

To me if a story can be corroborated historically and by eye witness account then it is fact. The funny thing about atheists/agnostics is that they offer no intelligent rebuttals nor do they display any knowledge of the scripture or belief that they refute. It's always the same, " no that's not true, that never happened, you're stupid" remark. Makes me laugh, then troubled because you don't even know what belief you deny and mock. The best strategy in warfare is to know thy enemy. Obviously this isn't war but rather a debate. Same thing still applies, know thy opposition. Your side lacks knowledge of what you refute, plain and simpleWe're still wating on an intelligent thought from you to begin intelligent debate. The fact that you deny facts because they don't corroborate with your beliefs already tells me you're irrational.

There are a number of different copies of many of the biblical books in the collection, with many disagreements between themselves, let alone our modern text:

The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around A.D. 100.

-- Oxford Companion to Archaeology

There are also many major differences we already knew about between the Septuagint, which is the Greek version of the OT and the Hebrew Tanakh, which the Dead Sea Scrolls only add to.

Now, it is true that our Greek text of the NT is very likely reliable to what they had in the mid 2nd century, and likely pretty close to the originals.

For the OT however, pretty much all scholars agree there never were originals, and that the collecting and editing of the texts went on for centuries

Not to mention it was translated from dead languages by people who could barely read or write themselves, DECADES AFTER the events supposedly took place. You end up with the fairy tale that is the Holy Bible. You can try to make a case that god divinely instructed each editor on what to write, but we would have to first believe that there is a god actually capable of doing that. Sorry to burst your evangelical bubble. The bible is at best a period representation of scientific technology of the bronze age. Nothing further.

As for salvation in the Old testament...

Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.

And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15. And then came the silly forced genital mutilation ritual performed on children who cant speak for themselves.

[.blank cd]

Also, do some research on christian biblical canon

[geoff]

I don't see your point in that article and it in fact defeats itself. The scriptures were edited by men that could barely read or write.... Seriously? Did you even think before you posted? Yes the are slight differences in text between the languages. I speak Romanian. In my language "good night" is nuapta buna. But literally translated it means night good. Does that change the over all message? No it does not. Once again I state that the message in both Old and New Testaments has stayed the same from the time they were first introduced. You also have to understand that many in those times could not read or write. The duties of the priest hood were reserved for the Levites who were educated holy men. It is not uncommon for these times for the entirety of the text to not be written but passed down through oral tradition. The fact that the stories themselves stayed so accurate and fluid through many generations shows these were devout men who took their faith very seriously. It's very simple to copy and paste from a web site.any scholars and theologians alike find no reason to be believe that the scriptures themselves were written by anyone other than whom it states wrote it.

Also, fail on how they obtained salvation in the Old Testament. Google let you down. Righteousness is not salvation. To obtain forgiveness of sin, a family would have the head male bring a sacrifice to the alter for the blood to be shed to cover sin for the previous year. Also, the High Priest would go once a year into the holy of hilts to offer a sacrifice for the forgiveness of the people. You failed to demonstrate any knowledge of the scriptures. You only succeeded in showing you know how to use google search.

Here is an easier question. When was the very first Christian church body formed according to scripture and history?

Honestly, man to man. What is your problem with Christ that you would mock Him and His teachings? You do me no harm, but rather yourself. You argue against a belief that you know you don't truly comprehend, and for what? Im not sure what your experiences with Christians in general is, but I can see that you have never known God on a personal level. Are you so sure of your unbelief that you're willing to gabble eternity? Many a man smarter than you and I have believed in Christ, and did not find it foolish.

[.blank cd]

Yes the are slight differences in text between the languages. I speak Romanian. In my language "good night" is nuapta buna. But literally translated it means night good. Does that change the over all message? No it does not. Once again I state that the message in both Old and New Testaments has stayed the same from the time they were first introduced. You also have to understand that many in those times could not read or write. The duties of the priest hood were reserved for the Levites who were educated holy men. It is not uncommon for these times for the entirety of the text to not be written but passed down through oral tradition. The fact that the stories themselves stayed so accurate and fluid through many generations shows these were devout men who took their faith very seriously. It's very simple to copy and paste from a web site.any scholars and theologians alike find no reason to be believe that the scriptures themselves were written by anyone other than whom it states wrote it.So you admit, the bible is just a big game of telephone?


Also, fail on how they obtained salvation in the Old Testament. Google let you down. Righteousness is not salvation. To obtain forgiveness of sin, a family would have the head male bring a sacrifice to the alter for the blood to be shed to cover sin for the previous year. Also, the High Priest would go once a year into the holy of hilts to offer a sacrifice for the forgiveness of the people. You failed to demonstrate any knowledge of the scriptures. You only succeeded in showing you know how to use google search.Thats the beauty of your holy book, I suppose. Its up to the end user to interpret it how they want. The bible says one thing, you say another. The difference between you and me is I dont have to physically suspend reality to fully understand a book. Fail on you for asking a leading, open ended question as well. My answer was correct according to the bible.


Honestly, man to man. What is your problem with Christ that you would mock Him and His teachings? You do me no harm, but rather yourself. You argue against a belief that you know you don't truly comprehend, and for what? Im not sure what your experiences with Christians in general is, but I can see that you have never known God on a personal level. Are you so sure of your unbelief that you're willing to gabble eternity? Many a man smarter than you and I have believed in Christ, and did not find it foolish.My problem with Jesus is that if we're picking men to worship, there are much better men who have accomplished much more for me and modern history than some Jewish carpenter who thought he was the son of god. I do myself no harm in not basing my life on barbaric fariy tales. I fully comprehend religious belief, and you and I both know I know history better than you do. Is that the reason you believe? Cause someone you think is smarter than you believes and doesnt consider it foolish? If someone I thought was smarter than me thought jumping off a cliff with no parachute wasnt a foolish idea, I'd have to question how smart he really is.

Furthermore, I dont need a holy book to tell me how to be a good person, especially when the better half of said book is about killing and death and how to hate, and the other half is just a rehashing of something we were all born with. Morality

Just for shits and giggles, how does it feel to know that Jesus was a liberal socialist? Does that bother you, being a conservative? That your poster child goes against everything the conservative message stands for?

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I believe i answered your questions regarding the scriptures in Matthew, Luke, and John with my above post. But I will attempt to go into further detail below.

Matthew 5:17- “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Simple really, if you have any understanding of the Old Testament and how the men of this time "got right with God" you would understand this scripture. See my above comments to get this answer.

Luke 16:17-"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." In this instance Jesus is stating to the Pharises that the Old Testament Law is not void. They aimed to say He was a blasphemer for not following their laws. He was telling them He is the Messiah, yet they remained blind and chose not to see.

John 10:35-"If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside " To understand this one must simply read the scriptures around it....as such below-
John 10:30-38-" I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

When you have the entirety of the scripture it makes sense now. Please don't get offended to what I am about to say next because that is not my intention. I understand now what your problem is. It is not that you are confused about anything. For you to be confused would mean that you read the scriptures and simply could not understand or comprehend what was said. That is a common mistake that after more careful reading and study, one will understand. Your problem is this, you are guilty as every atheist is of treating the Bible as a buffet. You pick and chose certain scriptures and take them out of context to support your argument. You probably entered some phrase into google to find scriptures to match what you wanted to say, found them on some atheist supporting website by a man or group that they themselves know nothing of scripture, and then you pasted it here. The problem is that you have no desire to know the truth nor do you care to research yourself the accuracy of the statements you make. You are following the argument of someone before you and in all honesty it is quite lame. Have a mind of your own and find something that is relevant. Continuing to do as you have been only shows a weak argument.

I know I am right with my interpretation of you, to test it i will simply ask you for something simple. Tell me what you know or believe you know about the Old Testament and New Testament. Simply, tell me how the men in the Old Testament sought salvation and tell me how men in the New Testament did so.

I can see how you would come to that conclusion and it a lot of cases, you would be 100% correct. I've spent years of my life in church and i've attempted to read and believe the bible. Yes, i can google scriptures to support my arguments, but i knew they were there before i searched. It's not as simple as saying "let me see if i can find this in the bible, google it". I'm not sure what to call myself, but i dont think atheist is the right title. I feel i'm seeking the "answers", but there are no real answers to be found. My interest in the bible and religion is strictly curiosity. I'm not one of the types who are trying to prove to myself that god isnt real to feel good about not believing. I would not be a christian even if profound evidence of God's existence were found. I would not be a christian if God himself came down from heaven and introduced himself. So, with that said... i have no reason to favor your side of the story over the atheist side of the story. I am sincerely interested in the "truth", whatever that truth may be. Finding the answers to these questions will not change my stance. Whether God is or is not real, i am not a servant.

[Sinfix_15]

According to the bible, at some point in time God was ok with rape and slavery. His own son died on a cross to save us from burning in hell because the laws of his father were too harsh for us to live by. In the old testament God was vengeful. Jesus died for our sins and saved us.

Ok, even if you do believe this to be true, what part of this story makes you want to worship this person?

[geoff]

Blank: First off your answer was not correct. The question was in no way leading or open ended. There was one simple answer and you answered wrong. I highly doubt you know more about the history behind the Old Tesrament Israelites, your wrong answer showed that. As far as interpretation of the scriptures. I am not qualified to give my own interpretation, rather I read it for what it is. Better men then Jesus to worship? False, there has never been one who lived to such a standard as He. He taught the highest code of morality. Also, your interpretation of the Bible being a book of death and killing shows yet again your lack of understanding. No insult my friend but honestly try to get some background on what we are discussing here.

Sinfix: First off, how long ago was it that you attempted to find God? I also wouldn't know what to call you other than rebellious. You say if God came to you and told you Christ was the way you would still refuse. Not sure why you are even curious or say you would be interested in the truth. Like I said before, it takes a spiritual awareness. Honestly if you ever find God it would be a great day. You seem intelligent and headstrong, the qualities of one that would make a strong Christian. You could do a lot for the kingdom of God. People like this are what's needed to bring back the honest and correct face to Christianity.

Once again, God never condoned rape. The we're punishments for it, more in detail than the one reference you gave. Just as there are punishments for rape today, God also set consequences for it then. As far as slavery goes. The slaves then were treated well and there were punishments too for mistreatment and abuse. Slavery to Gods people was more of a contract between a free man and indentured servant. After 7 years that man was set free no questions asked.

[geoff]

Sinfix: by the way, Christians are to serve in love not through fear or obligation. It is not a burden but rather an honor. Much like a man who serves his family to provide food, shelter, love, guidance, and so on...To me, serving God was my life's greatest joy.

[geoff]

Just found this online. This is what a spiritual life and one of faith is. This is why so many choose to believe through the jokes, ridicule, and mockery.

"A while back i was Agnostic, but then i started beinging in God and Jesus. My faith wasnt strong what so ever. About five months ago i was compleatly saved by God, i was forgiven and i had never felt a love so strong. I was happy and thankful for every single breath. I was addicted to the was his love made me feel. For the past few months ive sorta lost faith, i mean i know he's real still but i often have doubts and i dont feel happy and loved anymore. I dont know what i did wrong but i dont feel okay with him "gone". Ive got down on my knees and preyed aand begged him to let me feel the love. I'd do anything to feel his compleate love again and be forgiven ((eventhough i dont deserve forgivness))
Does anyone know any prayrs i can say thatll work? Or anything that will help me feel loved and help me give my life to him again??? please take this seriously, its drivin me crazy" anonymous

[.blank cd]

Once again, God never condoned rape. The we're punishments for it, more in detail than the one reference you gave. Just as there are punishments for rape today, God also set consequences for it then. As far as slavery goes. The slaves then were treated well and there were punishments too for mistreatment and abuse. Slavery to Gods people was more of a contract between a free man and indentured servant. After 7 years that man was set free no questions asked.Once again, you've shown your lack of understanding of the bible. Have you really even read it?....

The ENTIRE BIBLE is supposedly the divine word of God correct? Lets open our textbooks...

Judges 21
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin. ” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

After the murdering, it gets better. Watch....


20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”
23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.


Rape AND murder, all in one chapter! This book has it all. You can claim I'm taking it out of context all you want, but I'm reading this as any sane person reads a book that understands that it was gods words transcribed through man. Lets continue.

10 “As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace. 11 If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. 12 But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. 13 When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.



So there must be some punishment for rape right?

28 “If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found,
29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Couple hundred bucks and marriage for eternity. Sounds a bit better than 25yrs in prison doesnt it? LOL. If she is married, and she gets raped in a town, They both die.

[geoff]

First off, are you just trying to point that slavery, death, and rape are in the Bible or that they were condoned by God? I hope it's not the latter, because you already demonstrated your extent of knowledge of scripture when you answered a simple question wrong and didn't attempt an easier one. Yes its in the Bible, but not condoned or approved by God. Yes Gid commanded the Israelites to kill their enemies in war. They were societies filled with sin and corrupt. The punishment for sin was always death. Yes they had slaves either through conquest or voluntary. Those slaves were treated huimanly and just. After 7 years they were freed no questions asked. That was the law of the land. Yes there was rape and those who committed it were punished according to their laws. Much how we have consequences for lawlessness today. It was never condoned or approved otherwise there would be no punishment or offense. Are you insinuating that you are the ultimate judge in high morality and righteousness? That you would know how to punish crimes accordingly? I think not. Their code of justice was their own to establish. Funny you ridicule them, yet we in modern times kill unborn children simply because we don't want them. Yes, our society is deffinately held at higher standards.

Once again you show a lack of knowledge of history of the Israelites and even less about scripture, especially since you answered a simple question wrong and ignored an even easier one. If you cannot even show knowledge of simple basic scriptures then your argument is irrelevant.

I will give you one more chance to redeem yourself. If you cannot answer this simple question, then I will ignore you from here on out due to your hateful, misguided, ignorant comments. Here we go, tell me, according to scripture how does a believer obtain salvation in the New Testament. It's in the book about 9 or 10 times. Let's see how good you can google search.

[bu villain]

Makes me laugh, then troubled because you don't even know what belief you deny and mock. The best strategy in warfare is to know thy enemy. Obviously this isn't war but rather a debate. Same thing still applies, know thy opposition. Your side lacks knowledge of what you refute, plain and simple

Certainly you don't study every religion yet you have no problem denying all of them except for your own. And by the way, I don't mock Christianity and I'm sorry you feel that atheists and agnostics are your enemy/opposition.

[geoff]

What you you know about what I have studied. I have not gone in depth into every religion but rather studied the ones that focused on one God and those that had historical evidence. I can give my reasons for choosing the faith I did and not another of you choose to hear. You are not my enemy but due to opposing views you are my opposition. That doesn't mean there can't be mutual respect though.

[geoff]

By the way, why did they do away with the religion section?

[quickdodge®]

quickdodge: I mean no insult to you. If i came off that way then I apologize. What I was getting at was this, you really don't know much on the subject of the Bible or the scriptures. How then can you refute something you lack knowledge of?

Apology accepted, sir. I would just prefer to be (I guess you could say) recognized as unknowing rather than unintelligent in the religious realm.


Why? If this document is corroborated by history and eye witness account then whats the problem? Not every story or every person in the Bible can be corroborated by history, I admit that, but is that to say that every single document from every period of history has been discovered? I think not. The reason the Bible isn't accepted is simply due to the claims that it makes.

These are "eye-witness" accounts you refer to also characters in the Bible so that really doesn't say much. There's no family passed down stories of yore here. There's no proof that one man parted an entire sea. There's no proof that men built an ark to hold a pair of every each animal to escape a massive flood. There are so many inconsistencies with these historical corroborations.

Like I said, no insult was intended. But the fact remains, you do not have an extensive knowledge of the Bible or what the scriptures say. If I am wrong then please demonstrate the extent of your knowledge on this subject.


If I gave you historical evidence or eyewitness accounts of events/people of the Bible....would that be enough for you?

To be hones, no. Because you can't show me evidence of anything the Bible says. Unless you can bring me this eye-witness and he/she can tell me some things.

Come on QD....you know what I meant by this. I know your side of it....do you know mine?


I personally would not be offended if you said the same of me and early model civics....the fact is that you probably know more about them than i do.

I just would choose my words differently to lessen my chances of coming off offensive.


If you can not answer this simple question then you show a lack of understanding and comprehension of scripture...therefore you really have no argument to debate with me on this subject.

I actually can have a debate with you...despite my lack of knowledge with scripture. Of course, if you're trying to do the "Christian" thing and go almighty on me by telling me I'm not worthy of your words because I'm not on your level, then may God welcome you in His open arms because you're doing Him proud.

Dumbass. See? I can come off with insults as well.


Once again, I'm not trying to insult you; but when someone wishes to debate this subject with me and make me out to be some kind of fool or moron for my beliefs and they demonstrate ignorance of the subject I will by all means make them out to be as foolish as their statements.

I never tried to make you look like a fool. But with your insistence in casting snide insults my way, you're making my job of actually making you look the fool pretty easy.


calm on you guys this is a car import site

It's not an auto forum only. We're allowed to have discussions on other topics as well.


By the way, why did they do away with the religion section?

It was combined with all this. I don't know why, but it was. I asked about it a month ago. Later, QD.

[geoff]

This is what I was trying to say the whole time, not strictly of you but of those that are debating me on this. Once again, no insult intended.




There are also eye witness accounts from others during this time, Babylonians, Egyptians, ect....that could be used to corroborate the events and characters. True there is no proof of the ark and parting of the red sea, Science cannot be used to test these, so then we look to historical accounts. One can not simply say that these events never took place. There is eye witness account to them happening to my knowledge there are none that say it didn't take place. Also there is suggested scientific evidence and unexplainable phenomena that show a global flood of extreme proportions. As far as inconsistencies with historical corroborations, it is understandable that not every source is going to give the exact same interpretation of what took place, rather they do so based on what they witnessed and how they perceived it. The fact that there is historical evidence shows that something indeed did take place rather than not.




Really? One can not interpret history this way. That would be like you wouldn't accept the history of early america, the roman empire, or stories of the revolutionary war unless we some how magically brought the eye witnesses back to life. The simple truth is this, you just don't accept the evidences or stories while I do. Also, Jericho has been found with the walls indeed collapsed outwards as the Bible says, as well as Mt. Sinai that for some peculiar reason has a singed mountain peak...I can post a link to some videos that go really in depth to historical and archeological evidence but its kind of long....like 2 hour documentary long.




Yes you can have a debate with me. But for you or the others in here to try and use scripture out of context to prove a point is irrelevant to the debate. You admitted to having a lack of knowledge of scripture and in turn to try to use it to prove a point makes your argument futile. You personally have not done so yet, but there are others on here who have and will say, " look your Bible says that murder is ok and here is the proof" (uses * scripture to make point) but in all actuality they failed to read the entire passage and took it out of context or they had no knowledge of historical Israel. You as an intelligent person would not make the same mistake I hope. Also, I will readily admit that I am by no means justified to go "almighty" on anyone. I have faith, I believe in God, but i have not been living according to His ways. I say that to say that I don't believe myself to be better or more righteous than any man. To have faith but live like you don't is no better than having no faith at all.




This was actually not directed at you. This was more for Blankcd and the other guys who post insulting immature pictures and make snide comments about the faith. You are usually level headed.

Now let the intelligent mature debate between us commence. I will start with a simple question. How extensive is your knowledge of scripture or the Christian faith? How extensive is your knowledge of the History of the people of Israel?

[BanginJimmy]

I think anyone still posting in this thread is an idiot.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: by the way, Christians are to serve in love not through fear or obligation. It is not a burden but rather an honor. Much like a man who serves his family to provide food, shelter, love, guidance, and so on...To me, serving God was my life's greatest joy.

Religion is interesting to me. I am interested in it without wanting to be a part of it. The God that the bible describes is not one that i would worship. Fear and obligation are two of the first things that come to mind when i think about christianity. It's simply not for me. I admire a lot of christians and recognize that being christian has a lot to do with what makes that person worthy of admiration. I also believe that people are capable of doing good things without belief or religion.

back to the debate, you say that God didnt condone rape, but according to the scripture, god gave them the power to conquer their enemies knowing that the end result would be the victors taking slaves and raping women. How many scriptures does the bible speak of women like objects?

2 Samuel 12:11-14 - Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

Are women things to be given away? do they not have free will like everyone else?

Like i said..... my issue with the bible is that i have 2 options. I either do not believe in it, or i believe in and chose not to follow it. A god that would allow or empower soldiers to take a city in his name knowing that they were going to enslave and rape women is not a god that i would want to serve. A god that gives someone's wife to someone else to punish them is not a god i would want to serve.

What explanation can you offer for the lack of respect given to women in the bible?

Exodus 21:7-11 - If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[a] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

[bu villain]

I have no doubt that many things in the bible are historically accurate and there is evidence to support them. However, that doesn't mean everything else in the bible is true. Furthermore, eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable (incorrect witness accounts are the number one reason for false crime convictions). That is not to say they should not be considered but rather they should be considered with a does of skepticism. To an atheist, there is just no objective way to verify many of Christianity's central claims and thus, they can not be assumed true.

[geoff]

Sinfix: first let me say that you're probably the first person I've met who doesn't believe yet still has a high respect for Christianity. A rare thing and I respect you for that. From the outside it seems like fear and obligation, but when you know God it's reverence and appreciation. I see you are really trying to make a point here, but without proper knowledge of scripture and the history of the people your point is misleading. For example your reference to 2 Samuel 12:11-14....god is not punishing Israel. He is punishing king David ( same David in the story of David and Goliath). God placed David as king of Israel. David saw Bathseba and lusted after her, he sent her husband to be killed, and then took her as his wife. David commuted murder and adultery, which were punishable by death. The insult and sin was worse as David was directly appointed by God. David repented and instead of God punishing him with death he punished him by the scripture you posted. Bloodshed and war would occur for the rest of David's life, he would face adversity from his own family, and his wives would be taken by another just as he did.

Your reference to Exodus 21:7-11. In ancient times, a family might be reduced to such a desperate state that they would sell a daughter into bondage. If she was not acceptable to her new master, he would let her be redeemed, that is, her freedom might be purchased by another. If she was purchased as a bride, she was to be treated as one would treat a daughter. If the man took another wife later, her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights would continue. This daughter was not sold by her family against her will. She did so willingly to help her family as she would be fulfilling her duty to them.

Yes God would grant his people victory over their enemies. Yes the took slaves although I already pointed out what life was like for them. Yes rape occurred, but it was punished as I had pointed out. Your point here would be like me saying why did God allow you Sinfix to be born knowing you would sin and someday not only reject Him but also question his existence. The truth is, God does not involve Himself in mans choices. We are given free will to make our own decisions and live how we want. He gives us guidance and then rewards and consequences according to our choices. He does not force any man to be righteouss or evil, that alone is up to us.

[geoff]

By villain: what would be enough for you to believe?

[.blank cd]

Yes God would grant his people victory over their enemies. Yes the took slaves although I already pointed out what life was like for them. Yes rape occurred, but it was punished as I had pointed out. Where did you point out the punishment for slavery again?

[geoff]

I didn't point out any punishment for slavery. Israeli slaves were enemy troops whom were captured or indentured servants. They were to be treated exceptionally well and were set free every seven years. If a master abused his slave, he was punished for it. You almost seem to think Israeli slave trade was the same as that of the blacks. Get it right, Israelis took care of their slaves and set them free on the 7th year. They were punished if they abused them. Whites treated black slaves like animals and creatures without souls. They could murder a slave simply for insubordination. Your nit picking at how the Bible describes slave ownership yet are proud of your own American heritage? I say your own because my family did not immigrate here until 1980s...we were never slave owners.

[.blank cd]

I meant to say rape, where did you point out the punishment for rape

[geoff]

I believe that was already pointed out by Sinfix. But if it wasn't, the punishment for rape was that the man would pay a sum for the girl ( as she was no longer able to be married off) and this payment was a dowry of sorts. Also the man was by law required to marry her and could not divorce her.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: first let me say that you're probably the first person I've met who doesn't believe yet still has a high respect for Christianity. A rare thing and I respect you for that. From the outside it seems like fear and obligation, but when you know God it's reverence and appreciation. I see you are really trying to make a point here, but without proper knowledge of scripture and the history of the people your point is misleading. For example your reference to 2 Samuel 12:11-14....god is not punishing Israel. He is punishing king David ( same David in the story of David and Goliath). God placed David as king of Israel. David saw Bathseba and lusted after her, he sent her husband to be killed, and then took her as his wife. David commuted murder and adultery, which were punishable by death. The insult and sin was worse as David was directly appointed by God. David repented and instead of God punishing him with death he punished him by the scripture you posted. Bloodshed and war would occur for the rest of David's life, he would face adversity from his own family, and his wives would be taken by another just as he did.

Your reference to Exodus 21:7-11. In ancient times, a family might be reduced to such a desperate state that they would sell a daughter into bondage. If she was not acceptable to her new master, he would let her be redeemed, that is, her freedom might be purchased by another. If she was purchased as a bride, she was to be treated as one would treat a daughter. If the man took another wife later, her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights would continue. This daughter was not sold by her family against her will. She did so willingly to help her family as she would be fulfilling her duty to them.

Yes God would grant his people victory over their enemies. Yes the took slaves although I already pointed out what life was like for them. Yes rape occurred, but it was punished as I had pointed out. Your point here would be like me saying why did God allow you Sinfix to be born knowing you would sin and someday not only reject Him but also question his existence. The truth is, God does not involve Himself in mans choices. We are given free will to make our own decisions and live how we want. He gives us guidance and then rewards and consequences according to our choices. He does not force any man to be righteouss or evil, that alone is up to us.

I do have great respect for Christians... if not Christianity. The best way to describe my view of Christianity is that i treat it like a loaded gun. A loaded gun can be used to protect your family the same way it can be used to rob a liquor store. Christianity has produced a lot of great individuals who accomplished great things, but it has also spilled a lot of blood for no reason at all.

What did God accomplish by punishing David with war and bloodshed? how did he use women in David's life as pawns for such punishment? are people just God's play things to be moved around?

God gives an army the power to conquer a city, they do, then they take slaves and rape women. Now he's left with a new group of people that he just empowered that need to be punished? Seems like an endless cycle.

It being "normal" for a daughter to be sold into slavery doesnt make it right. Why doesnt the bible just address that as being wrong? why isnt slavery and rape condemned in the bible? The daughter accepting this fate doesnt make it right either. To say she would "want" to is a bold statement. You act as if women had any choice about anything in that time period. Of course she wanted to..... over death.

If God doesnt involve himself in man's choices, how did he decide the fate of so many? Why couldnt David's wives chose to be loyal to him?

You cant play both sides of the fence..... you cant claim that God has a part in all of the victories, then blame man for all of the wrong doing. God's might allowed a city to be conquered, but man's free will allowed women to be raped and slaves to be had, it doesnt work that way.

If i own a business that does house cleaning and i send a murderer to clean your house and he kills your family. That is my fault. If God empowered people to overthrow a city and take slaves and women, then he empowered them to take slaves and rape women. You cant accept the victory without accepting the casualty.


I respect some CHRISTIANS............ but i dont necessarily respect Christianity. When i see the impact someone like Tim Tebow has on the world, i dont care why he does it. I dont care why he helps children or built a hospital, but i recognize that him being a Christian is what led him to live the life he does and i respect *that*...... i give both credit and criticism for the good and bad of religion. Where we might be in disagreement is whether there is more good or bad. A lot of blood has been shed over religion....... Christians are so quick to say that the world would be chaos without religion, well.... the world is chaos with it. How many wars have been fought over religion????

[.blank cd]

I didn't point out any punishment for slavery. Israeli slaves were enemy troops whom were captured or indentured servants. They were to be treated exceptionally well and were set free every seven years. If a master abused his slave, he was punished for it. You almost seem to think Israeli slave trade was the same as that of the blacks. Get it right, Israelis took care of their slaves and set them free on the 7th year. They were punished if they abused them. Whites treated black slaves like animals and creatures without souls. They could murder a slave simply for insubordination. Your nit picking at how the Bible describes slave ownership yet are proud of your own American heritage? I say your own because my family did not immigrate here until 1980s...we were never slave owners.So slavery is ok, as long as its this biblical slavery? Would you condone this kind of slavery if it were practiced today? Recent research tells us that American slavery wasn't always as barbaric as the media has made it out to be, and that much literature written before the 60's had sort of a racist bias. Slaves were also clothed and fed and housed. Some were even freed, some bought themselves free (see Manumission and the Manumission Society). Which is not to say that slavery was ok. Your reference of abuse and punishment for insubordination are not mutually exclusive. One can punish for insubordination and not abuse. Not to say that abuse or killing were not happening. Killing wasn't exactly commonplace in american slavery as slave owners purchased slaves with their own money. Killing a slave was hardly a good investment. Slave states also had codes on how slaves should be treated. However, the deprivation of liberty of another human being (even in the name of god) is still wrong, be it in biblical context, or recent history.


I believe that was already pointed out by Sinfix. But if it wasn't, the punishment for rape was that the man would pay a sum for the girl ( as she was no longer able to be married off) and this payment was a dowry of sorts. Also the man was by law required to marry her and could not divorce her.I just wanted to see you say it, since when I quote the exact same book, Deuteronomy, its out of context. Pretty lax punishment, even in those times. Wouldnt you agree? Or maybe we should relax the modern punishment? Cause you can go to jail for a long time. I guess wealthy people wouldnt be affected, pay a few hundred bucks and marry another woman. Shit, even for me, theres a few girls I'd marry if it only cost me a couple hundred bucks.

You said earlier that you supported North Carolinas Amendment one. What benefit do you believe it brings to society to have a state re-define marriage as solely a christian institution?




I respect some CHRISTIANS............ but i dont necessarily respect Christianity. When i see the impact someone like Tim Tebow has on the world, i dont care why he does it. I dont care why he helps children or built a hospital, but i recognize that him being a Christian is what led him to live the life he does and i respect *that*...... i give both credit and criticism for the good and bad of religion. Where we might be in disagreement is whether there is more good or bad. A lot of blood has been shed over religion....... Christians are so quick to say that the world would be chaos without religion, well.... the world is chaos with it. How many wars have been fought over religion????I dont have much respect for Christianity, especially in the political realm. It really needs to stop being used to shape policy to deprive others of human liberty. I have respect for good humanity. If you do bad things, fuck you. If you do good things, great. Why discredit yourself and do it in the name of god and say you wouldn't have done it had you not read this book? Who is the better person: The atheist who bought 1000 hungry kids dinner, or the believer who bought 1000 kids dinner because "someone" told him to?

[geoff]

I'm going to try and make this simple. The Israelites had two types of slaves. Men whom they conquered and farces to work the land. They were fed, clothed, sheltered, respected, and cared for like one would family. They had punishments for if slaves were mistreated or abused. The second kind was one that willingly sold themselves into slavery. In all honestly "slave" is not the proper term to be used but rather indentured servant. They came to a mutual understanding that the "slave" would be provided food, clothing, shelter, and goods in return for their labor. I know you are not trying to praise american slavery and demonize Biblical, as far as I have ever read their was nothing positive about American slavery. I do not see anything wrong with slavery in the Bible as it was nothing like the "slavery" that we in modern times envision. And men still do it today. When you go into employment for a man, you agree to labor or provide services for a mutually agreed upon payment of those labors/services. When one nation goes in and conquers another, the conquered are now servants to the conquerors. They follow the rules of their new "master" and pay tax to their ruling nation and what not.

As far as rape goes, it was a sin/crime and there was punishment for it. A man could not simply just take another wife. He would be commuting adultery and sin and as such, no woman or family would be willing to arrange marriage with said man. They would not willingly commit adultery. Marriage to them had much more meaning and was forever. Also, the punishment for rape in modern times is lax. One could get off in a few months or years with good behavior.

I have shown that your interpretation of these scriptures is wrong, I have showed that it was not condoned, and you have demonstrated that you do not hold even basic knowledge of scripture or the Israeli people. With that said, I have put this argument of yours to rest. You are now simply beating a dead horse. Find some other topic to debate as I have defeated this one. You may not agree but you are not the standard of high morality or righteouss judgement. I pointed what the scriptures say, what they mean, and how they were applied.

As far as my beliefs on marriage, it is off topic and a political debate your trying to get into. This original topic has nothing to do with it. We are talking about scripture not politics. I will simply say that I disagree with same sex marriage, no religion condones it, and it in fact is supportive of an unnatural relationship. If you wish to discuss this, start another thread. Otherwise find a different point to discuss/debate on the current subject. Stay on course sir.

[Sinfix_15]

I'm going to try and make this simple. The Israelites had two types of slaves. Men whom they conquered and farces to work the land. They were fed, clothed, sheltered, respected, and cared for like one would family. They had punishments for if slaves were mistreated or abused. The second kind was one that willingly sold themselves into slavery. In all honestly "slave" is not the proper term to be used but rather indentured servant. They came to a mutual understanding that the "slave" would be provided food, clothing, shelter, and goods in return for their labor. I know you are not trying to praise american slavery and demonize Biblical, as far as I have ever read their was nothing positive about American slavery. I do not see anything wrong with slavery in the Bible as it was nothing like the "slavery" that we in modern times envision. And men still do it today. When you go into employment for a man, you agree to labor or provide services for a mutually agreed upon payment of those labors/services. When one nation goes in and conquers another, the conquered are now servants to the conquerors. They follow the rules of their new "master" and pay tax to their ruling nation and what not.

As far as rape goes, it was a sin/crime and there was punishment for it. A man could not simply just take another wife. He would be commuting adultery and sin and as such, no woman or family would be willing to arrange marriage with said man. They would not willingly commit adultery. Marriage to them had much more meaning and was forever. Also, the punishment for rape in modern times is lax. One could get off in a few months or years with good behavior.

I have shown that your interpretation of these scriptures is wrong, I have showed that it was not condoned, and you have demonstrated that you do not hold even basic knowledge of scripture or the Israeli people. With that said, I have put this argument of yours to rest. You are now simply beating a dead horse. Find some other topic to debate as I have defeated this one. You may not agree but you are not the standard of high morality or righteouss judgement. I pointed what the scriptures say, what they mean, and how they were applied.

As far as my beliefs on marriage, it is off topic and a political debate your trying to get into. This original topic has nothing to do with it. We are talking about scripture not politics. I will simply say that I disagree with same sex marriage, no religion condones it, and it in fact is supportive of an unnatural relationship. If you wish to discuss this, start another thread. Otherwise find a different point to discuss/debate on the current subject. Stay on course sir.

So i guess the crusades was the same as christians holding a mobile job fair and going around giving people the option of accepting the terms of christianity?

i feel the base of your argument is sugarcoating the history. your basically saying "the slavery wasnt that bad".

Not all american slaves were whip beaten cotton pickers forced to plow fields either, im sure some of them were content..... not happy with their arrangement. The ones who were happy with being a slave was because they didnt know any better. You can enslave someone mentally, you dont always need shackles and chains. Go around today and ask any black people who are having a hard time paying for their homes if they would like to go be a slave on a plantation and be fed and sheltered..... i would say come back and tell me what they say, but you probably wouldnt make it back alive. Slavery is slavery. Selling your daughter is both slavery and rape, whether she agreed to it or not.


I have a problem you might can help me with......

I have a 15 year old daughter. I have always told her that if she has sex before she is married that she will no longer be welcome under my roof and that i will ship her off to boarding school until shes 18 and never speak to her again. She is well aware of this strict punishment that i predetermined. A week ago i find out that my 15 year old daughter is pregnant, but she swears on her life that she has never had sex. My neighbor tells me that it must be a miracle, i think she's just lying to me. What do you think?

[Sinfix_15]

also, you keep pointing out that im not a biblical scholar..... no and dont claim to be. Not everything i ask is meant to be challenging your story. Some of questions are just questions.....

When you say God used David's wives to punish him.... How? How did God have control over David's wives and what they did. God had the power to make David's wives not be loyal to him but he didnt have the power to stop "his" soldiers from raping women?

Can something God says be wrong? if so... can everything God says be wrong.... just going by what youre saying, it seems that God takes a lot of gambles. He says that he is going to punish David by giving his wives to another, what if David's wives chose to be loyal to him for the rest of his life? then what? Did they have that choice and decide to do what God wanted or did they have no choice at all?

A lot of things just simply dont make sense. Why did they feel the need to mention "dont steal your neighbors donkey" in the 10 commandments, but not "hey, lets stop enslaving defeated soldiers of war and raping their wives and daughters"

[.blank cd]

I'm going to try and make this simpleGood, cause I don't think you even understand what you're saying. Lol.


The Israelites had two types of slaves. Men whom they conquered and forced to work the land. They were fed, clothed, sheltered, respected, and cared for like one would family. They had punishments for if slaves were mistreated or abused.Citation for this?


In all honestly "slave" is not the proper term to be used but rather indentured servant. So the bible says "slave", but means "paid employees"? Why the inconsistency? Something change in translation/revision?


As far as rape goes, it was a sin/crime and there was punishment for it.Didnt see that in the commandments, must have missed it.


A man could not simply just take another wife. He would be commuting adultery and sin and as such, no woman or family would be willing to arrange marriage with said man. They would not willingly commit adultery. Rape and adultery, two different things.


I have shown that your interpretation of these scriptures is wrong, I have showed that it was not condoned, and you have demonstrated that you do not hold even basic knowledge of scripture or the Israeli people. With that said, I have put this argument of yours to rest. You are now simply beating a dead horse. Find some other topic to debate as I have defeated this oneHardly. Lol. You've just shown that you can interpret the bible different than me.


You may not agree but you are not the standard of high morality or righteouss judgement. I pointed what the scriptures say, what they mean, and how they were applied.So, for a book open to interpretation, the literal way I interpret it is wrong, and the way YOU interpret it is correct, am I right, or am I off base with this?

And yes, I and the rest of my fellow humans are the ultimate authority for morality.


I will simply say that I disagree with same sex marriage, no religion condones it,I could name quite a few religions and Christian churches that condone it. And science has shown that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, as well as humans. So it is in fact a natural behavior.

[RandomGuy]

historical evidence
That's a pandora's box you might not want to open.

But side note, I respect Geoff for being strong in what he believes, whether I agree with it or not.

[RandomGuy]

And science has shown that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, as well as humans. So it is in fact a natural behavior.

So does cannibalism... Just sayin'

Being "natural" is irrelevant

[.blank cd]

So does cannibalism... Just sayin'

True, but wouldnt you say cannibalism falls under the "depriving someone else of life/liberty" category, or the "infringing on someone else's rights/freedoms" category? If two consenting humans have a relationship, do you believe that infringes on someone else's rights/freedoms? If so, which ones?

[geoff]

there are a lot of posts for me to respond to. i will get to them as soon as i can.

[RandomGuy]

True, but wouldnt you say cannibalism falls under the "depriving someone else of life/liberty" category, or the "infringing on someone else's rights/freedoms" category? If two consenting humans have a relationship, do you believe that infringes on someone else's rights/freedoms? If so, which ones?

I don't care about judging others like that or telling others what to do. I'm stating that just because something exists in nature doesn't mean anything. Even in nature you can see self-destructive behaviors. I guess this can go much deeper than the scope of this convo and at the end of the day it'll turn back into apples and oranges. It'll probably come down to what you consider to be the meaning of life or the importance of biological progeny.

To answer your question, I don't think it infringes on anyone else. I also don't think anyone can tell someone who to pair with, but I think it's a common notion that organized religions are (allegedly) "life frameworks for success". Your genes likely won't be carried on should you voluntarily stray from this "framework", which allegedly seeks to guide you to success (depending on religion, either spiritually or worldly). Success is subjective, but imagine a colony of only homosexuals existed on an island, somehow. How long would their kind survive? Surely genes wont flow as well as in the general population. Is this good/bad? Should whatever happens after the scope of your life matter to you? Lol probably the fundamental argument. :dunno:

[geoff]

Ok, there are alot of posts to respond to, so for the sake of responding so you might understand, I will address each one of you individually.

Sinfix:


What did God accomplish by punishing David with war and bloodshed? how did he use women in David's life as pawns for such punishment? are people just God's play things to be moved around?

David was the first appointed king of Israel by God Himself. David was held to a higher standard than the rest of society, much like one in power (president of USA) would be today. When he sinned against God he also sinned against the people as he was to lead by example. The punishment of war and bloodshed was that David would not rule a kingdom of peace. He would be stressed and always on alert to threats coming to destroy him.


God gives an army the power to conquer a city, they do, then they take slaves and rape women. Now he's left with a new group of people that he just empowered that need to be punished? Seems like an endless cycle.
First of all you are implying that every city that was conquered meant every woman was raped. The fact is that they took some of the women in and made them their wives not just some sex toy that they abused and then tossed aside. Yes it is an endless cycle, God blesses people and we sin against Him. The punishment for sin is death, yet God shows us mercy and gives us endless opportunity to turn it around. Much how society treats convicts. Do you believe that instead of someone going in and out of jail that they should be executed after 3 or four felonies? Funny how when we jail these convicts; they serve time to be "rehabilitated", we release them and they break the law again only to be rehabilitated again. We do this endless cycle and are considered "just" yet when God does it you seem He is playing games. That does not seem very rational to me.


It being "normal" for a daughter to be sold into slavery doesnt make it right. Why doesnt the bible just address that as being wrong? why isnt slavery and rape condemned in the bible? The daughter accepting this fate doesnt make it right either. To say she would "want" to is a bold statement. You act as if women had any choice about anything in that time period. Of course she wanted to..... over death.
I have said it many times before, God does not condone either. For the sake of this becoming an extremely long response I will post the Biblical view of slavery and rape after I respond to blankcd.
If my family was starving and I could not find work, I would sell myself to slavery that they might be ok. You might say that it is wrong but thats how loyalty and self sacrifice works.


If God doesnt involve himself in man's choices, how did he decide the fate of so many? Why couldnt David's wives chose to be loyal to him?
He doesn't have to involve Himself in man's choices to decide their fate. We have free will. He set up the rewards and consequences and gave a guideline on how one is to conduct themselves. Cause and Effect is a natural law my friend. If you sleep with a woman who has aids and you did not use a condom, guess what, you now probably have aids. It's not that David's wives were unloyal to him. They were taken from him in conquest. Everything he held dear was stripped from him.


You cant play both sides of the fence..... you cant claim that God has a part in all of the victories, then blame man for all of the wrong doing. God's might allowed a city to be conquered, but man's free will allowed women to be raped and slaves to be had, it doesnt work that way.
Excuse me but how can you put the deeds of the few on God? He did not make them sin. Your quote above is like stating that America as a whole had victory in the war in Iraq, some soldiers decided to mock prisoners and take pictures and abuse them. That means that America as a whole is supportive of this and condones it. No sir, that's not how it works. You can very much separate the deeds of men from the powers in charge.


If i own a business that does house cleaning and i send a murderer to clean your house and he kills your family. That is my fault. If God empowered people to overthrow a city and take slaves and women, then he empowered them to take slaves and rape women. You cant accept the victory without accepting the casualty.
If you hire a man and he kills my family, you are not to blame....the man is. If you hire a man TO kill my family, then yes you also have fault. God did not instruct the Israeli people to go take a city and rape the women.


How many wars have been fought over religion????
Just because someone or some peoples fly the banner of Christ or Allah or Buddha and start a war does not mean they are fighting for their religion or that god. Many a times they fight in the name of God only to further their own personal lust for power and ambitions. Hitler was supposedly catholic, did God sanction him to slaughter the jews? Do the actions of Islamic Jihadists' mean that every muslim should be feared as a terrorist?


So i guess the crusades was the same as christians holding a mobile job fair and going around giving people the option of accepting the terms of christianity?

You must not know your history on the crusades. They were in fact a response to muslim raids and invasion for hundreds of years. Check here...History of the Crusades (http://www.thearma.org/essays/Crusades.htm)

Slavery is a touchy issue due to the dark history surrounding it. Is slavery wrong, yes. Did it happen, yes. Does is show bad of Gods' character, no. I will show below what the Bible says of slavery.

I have a 15 year old daughter. I have always told her that if she has sex before she is married that she will no longer be welcome under my roof and that i will ship her off to boarding school until shes 18 and never speak to her again. She is well aware of this strict punishment that i predetermined. A week ago i find out that my 15 year old daughter is pregnant, but she swears on her life that she has never had sex. My neighbor tells me that it must be a miracle, i think she's just lying to me. What do you think?
Not exactly sure what the point of this is? In this scenario I would assume that your neighbor is full of crap and deflowered your daughter and your daughter is scared for her life to tell you the truth.


When you say God used David's wives to punish him.... How? How did God have control over David's wives and what they did. God had the power to make David's wives not be loyal to him but he didnt have the power to stop "his" soldiers from raping women?
You misunderstood the scriptures my friend. David's wives were taken from him, they did not cheat on him.

As you said, you are no Biblical scholar, and you would probably readily admit that you have not read much of it. It is understandable that a lot of it would not make sense to you. I am fine with questions. I am not fine with someone taking a scripture and twisting it or showing it out of context to match their agenda or view.

[geoff]

Blank cd:


Good, cause I don't think you even understand what you're saying. Lol.
Typical atheist response. You don't add anything to the debate and dodge questions. Instead you simply say , " haahaa dummy, your stupid and wrong". Good job sir, you sure showed me.


So the bible says "slave", but means "paid employees"? Why the inconsistency? Something change in translation/revision?
Once again taking words out of context. I believe I used this to describe those slaves that willingly sold themselves to a master.


Didnt see that in the commandments, must have missed it.
I will address this and the matter of slavery in detail in my next post. Give me time to gather the scripture.


Rape and adultery, two different things.
Huh? Did you just ignore all other 30 something odd words that were included in my response? How did you interpret me saying rape and adultery were the same? I stated that the man who raped the woman would have to marry her and could not marry another according to the law. If he divorced her, he would be commiting adultery. It may not seem big to you, but to them, they tried to live according to Mosaic Law and to please God.


Hardly. Lol. You've just shown that you can interpret the bible different than me.
Once again, typical atheist comment. You completely ignored my sound evidence and dismissed it as insufficient. I did not merely show you a different interpretation of the scripture. I showed you the literal interpretation. You showed me a skewed view on the scripture that match your faith atheist agenda.


So, for a book open to interpretation, the literal way I interpret it is wrong, and the way YOU interpret it is correct, am I right, or am I off base with this?

And yes, I and the rest of my fellow humans are the ultimate authority for morality.
You did not interpret it a literal way. To be interpreted literally would mean you read it and then understand the words as they are written without any sort of hidden meaning. What you did is read a scripture from a book you have obviously not read about a religion you obviously know nothing about and then stuck your interpretation of it into the mix.


I could name quite a few religions and Christian churches that condone it. And science has shown that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, as well as humans. So it is in fact a natural behavior.
Oh please show me a religion that says its normal for same sex marriages and condones homosexuality. Please show where it says it in said religions holy scriptures or book. As far as Christians condoning it, they are no Christians at all. They teach against the scriptures that they claim is their ultimate authority. And yes it happens in nature but as said by randomguy that it does not make it natural or right. Incest is also found in nature. So is sex of an older gender with one that has just come to maturity. Yet we do not condone a mother/son, brother/sister/ cousins sexual relationship. We do not condone a 40 year old man having sex with a girl that just reached maturity ( right around the age of 13 ). So, why do some condone same sex relationships but condone incest and pedophilia even if it is consented? And you and the rest of humanity are the standard of high morality? Hmmmm how many genocides have taken place without a religious base? I can name what happened in Somalia, Burma, hitler...ect....

And right and wrong have been open to interpretation by man kind during certain eras. Slavery for example. You point out that it homosexuality happens in nature and does not take away anyone else's rights....true...but neither does incest or pedophilia or bestiality, or necrophilia. So what are your views on that? I do not judge gays as people. Yes when I think of homosexual sex i think its disgusting much like a gay man would think a vagina is nasty. Do I hate them, no. Do I agree with their choice of lifestyle, no. Do I think homosexuality should be considered "normal", no. It is unnatural in the fact that men and men and women and women are not designed to have intercourse with one another. The anatomy just does not add up. And take religion or God out of the debate, two men and two women can never reproduce, and sex in its most primitive form is a tool for reproduction. You do not have to agree with my point of view on this...you asked me a question and I gave you my own personal oppinion. Do not make me out to be some kind of insensitive prick or monster because I don't support gay marriage.

[geoff]

I don't care about judging others like that or telling others what to do. I'm stating that just because something exists in nature doesn't mean anything. Even in nature you can see self-destructive behaviors. I guess this can go much deeper than the scope of this convo and at the end of the day it'll turn back into apples and oranges. It'll probably come down to what you consider to be the meaning of life or the importance of biological progeny.

To answer your question, I don't think it infringes on anyone else. I also don't think anyone can tell someone who to pair with, but I think it's a common notion that organized religions are (allegedly) "life frameworks for success". Your genes likely won't be carried on should you voluntarily stray from this "framework", which allegedly seeks to guide you to success (depending on religion, either spiritually or worldly). Success is subjective, but imagine a colony of only homosexuals existed on an island, somehow. How long would their kind survive? Surely genes wont flow as well as in the general population. Is this good/bad? Should whatever happens after the scope of your life matter to you? Lol probably the fundamental argument.

very well said, but be careful, you might be made out to be primitive, barbaric, or insensitive and trying to deny simple freedoms with views like this.

[geoff]

Scripture against slavery.
Exodus 21:16-"He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."
Leviticus 25:17" ye shall not therefore oppress one another."
Deuteronomy 15:9-10 "Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him naught; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee."

Deuteronomy 24:14-15 "Thou shalt not oppress a hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: at his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it, for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee."

Isaiah 58:6-"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? ... To undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"

Matthew 23:10- "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Galatians 3:28-"There is neither bond nor free ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Amos 1:6-9 "Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom:But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:And I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, and him that holdeth the sceptre from Ashkelon, and I will turn mine hand against Ekron: and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish, saith the Lord God.Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Tyrus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they delivered up the whole captivity to Edom, and remembered not the brotherly covenant."

Scriptures against rape:

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 "But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her."

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 *If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

And the New Testament furthers this:

Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Sexual immorality includes adultery, premarital sex, incest, rape, homosexuality, bestiality, necrophilia, ect...and I already know theses scriptures will not be a satisfactory answer to you and that's fine. I am showing you scripture evidence that God does not condone these things, this, with a historical understanding of Israel in this era and basic insight into the scriptures as a whole will show my point. Accept it or not, doesn't matter how you twist it, truth is truth.

[cyb593]

The Bible was always meant to be a "GUIDE," that's it. Not what is for sure going to happen. The Bible is a lot of stories written by MEN. Not GOD!! Remember this, where there is man there is error. Not to mention, how many times it was translated from language to language? What about the other books that were rejected by the council of Nicea? Why weren't those counted. Those books could completely contradict some of these other ones and a lot of versus do. Hence the reason it is supposed to lead you down a narrower path not show you exactly what to do. It is analogous to Aesops Fables, it is supposed to show you right from wrong, as a guide.

Don't get me wrong, i am a Christian. But a lot of what the Bible says should not be taken literally. At the very least, it should be viewed through the lens of the cultural context that it was written in. For example, according to the Bible you shouldn't cut your hair, touch a pig, eat shellfish, etc. And lets not forget all of the priests that were using the Bible (only one copy, held in the church, and written in Latin) to control there congregations when common people had almost no education so they couldn't read it themselves. What makes you think the translators didn't have their say in what the Bible translated too?

You should base your life on what is right and do what is best for your family. Teach them to do good and keep them from doing evil. Introduce them to God and let me pick what path they want to take. I think a lot people look way too deeply into arguing what religion is right and what is wrong. People fail to realize that the majority of them get you to the same place, God. It might be under a different name, but they are all worshiping the Big Man upstairs. Why can't it be this way? Furthermore, i feel that the main purpose of the Bible is to convey the immeasurable depth of God's love for all people. It should never be used as a weapon against others, to point out faults and tear people down.

As for the sex before marriage, if someone is in love with someone else, committed exclusively to that person, acting responsibly, and willing to accept the physical and emotional consequences, then why not? The government's piece of paper (marriage license) doesn't mean anything in Gods eyes.

As for the end of the world, it will come when it is time. You have nothing to fear if you have an understanding of your Creator and try to live as an example of His love either way.

[Sinfix_15]

Ok, there are alot of posts to respond to, so for the sake of responding so you might understand, I will address each one of you individually.

Sinfix:


David was the first appointed king of Israel by God Himself. David was held to a higher standard than the rest of society, much like one in power (president of USA) would be today. When he sinned against God he also sinned against the people as he was to lead by example. The punishment of war and bloodshed was that David would not rule a kingdom of peace. He would be stressed and always on alert to threats coming to destroy him.


First of all you are implying that every city that was conquered meant every woman was raped. The fact is that they took some of the women in and made them their wives not just some sex toy that they abused and then tossed aside. Yes it is an endless cycle, God blesses people and we sin against Him. The punishment for sin is death, yet God shows us mercy and gives us endless opportunity to turn it around. Much how society treats convicts. Do you believe that instead of someone going in and out of jail that they should be executed after 3 or four felonies? Funny how when we jail these convicts; they serve time to be "rehabilitated", we release them and they break the law again only to be rehabilitated again. We do this endless cycle and are considered "just" yet when God does it you seem He is playing games. That does not seem very rational to me.


I have said it many times before, God does not condone either. For the sake of this becoming an extremely long response I will post the Biblical view of slavery and rape after I respond to blankcd.
If my family was starving and I could not find work, I would sell myself to slavery that they might be ok. You might say that it is wrong but thats how loyalty and self sacrifice works.


He doesn't have to involve Himself in man's choices to decide their fate. We have free will. He set up the rewards and consequences and gave a guideline on how one is to conduct themselves. Cause and Effect is a natural law my friend. If you sleep with a woman who has aids and you did not use a condom, guess what, you now probably have aids. It's not that David's wives were unloyal to him. They were taken from him in conquest. Everything he held dear was stripped from him.


Excuse me but how can you put the deeds of the few on God? He did not make them sin. Your quote above is like stating that America as a whole had victory in the war in Iraq, some soldiers decided to mock prisoners and take pictures and abuse them. That means that America as a whole is supportive of this and condones it. No sir, that's not how it works. You can very much separate the deeds of men from the powers in charge.


If you hire a man and he kills my family, you are not to blame....the man is. If you hire a man TO kill my family, then yes you also have fault. God did not instruct the Israeli people to go take a city and rape the women.


Just because someone or some peoples fly the banner of Christ or Allah or Buddha and start a war does not mean they are fighting for their religion or that god. Many a times they fight in the name of God only to further their own personal lust for power and ambitions. Hitler was supposedly catholic, did God sanction him to slaughter the jews? Do the actions of Islamic Jihadists' mean that every muslim should be feared as a terrorist?


You must not know your history on the crusades. They were in fact a response to muslim raids and invasion for hundreds of years. Check here...History of the Crusades (http://www.thearma.org/essays/Crusades.htm)

Slavery is a touchy issue due to the dark history surrounding it. Is slavery wrong, yes. Did it happen, yes. Does is show bad of Gods' character, no. I will show below what the Bible says of slavery.

Not exactly sure what the point of this is? In this scenario I would assume that your neighbor is full of crap and deflowered your daughter and your daughter is scared for her life to tell you the truth.


You misunderstood the scriptures my friend. David's wives were taken from him, they did not cheat on him.

As you said, you are no Biblical scholar, and you would probably readily admit that you have not read much of it. It is understandable that a lot of it would not make sense to you. I am fine with questions. I am not fine with someone taking a scripture and twisting it or showing it out of context to match their agenda or view.

I dont guess there's anyway to prove to you the extent i've explored christianity. I'm not some guy who went to a rock concert and then became anti-christian because i thought it was the cool thing to do. I was raised christian with christian parents. I started going to church around age 4-5 and went to church into my 20s. The first half of that experience, i believed. I've probably read 75% of the bible. At one point in my life my goal was to read the bible entirely, but as time went on i faded away from that. I havnt picked up a bible in 5 years. I cant quote and go into details about bible references enough to be credible in your eyes, but i know the extent that i've "given christianity a chance". Growing up, everyone i was around was christian, all of my friends were christian, i had no negative influence towards christianity what so ever. I believed everything about it. I remember praying at night when i heard my parents arguing and worrying about what would happen to people when they died.

At some point the doubt started creeping in and i always kept it to myself. The only thing that turned me away from the bible was the bible. Things i read started to not make sense. Things i listened to in church started to not make sense. I tried to believe and had no reason or benefit of not believing. Being a nonbeliever would only alienate you when everyone around you is a christian. I almost married the preacher's daughter. Everyone ive ever been around was a christian. I went to a preppy school where everyone was christian. Nobody convinced me to feel the way i feel.

One day you just wake up, look yourself in the mirror and be honest that you dont believe. Brainwashed by the fear of punishment and hell you're scared to think it or say it...... but once you look yourself in the mirror and realize that it isnt real, it's like the weight of the world is lifted off your shoulders. The moment i stopped believing my life improved so much. No more stress, no more worry, no more thinking about death.

I didnt stop enjoying the company of the people i was surrounded with, i just dont believe in it. Not one fiber of my existence believes that Jesus is real. Not one molecule that makes me who am believes .00000001% that Jesus is real. I havnt believed for over a decade now. I've been to church 100s of times since i stopped believing. I'm not in a ACDC shirt sitting in the back row giving people dirty looks, i look just like everyone else, i clap when they sing, i shake hands and talk to people...... but i dont believe 1 word of any of it.

I had a roommate for about 3 years and he was a major christian, prayed every time he ate, always prayed at night before bed. Sometimes id walk thru the living room and see him on his knees praying on the couch. He was aware that i was an atheist and he would always say that i was probably one of the most moral person that he knew and it absolutely amazed him that i was an atheist. I've slept inside a preacher's house 100s of times, sat at their table, ate and talked with them.... you wouldnt know i was an atheist.

My life is better without religion. It's that simple. The same way you probably feel sorry for me when you read this, thinking about what i am missing out on, i feel the same way about you. I feel sorry that you cant experience what i do and feel the peace that i feel.

anyways, long story short.... you couldnt be more wrong about my experience with christianity. I have read the bible, ive lived the church experience and it wasnt for me. When i was 12, i played mortal kombat till my fingers bled..... but i cant remember a single finishing move if you asked me. That doesnt mean it didnt happen. I've read 75% of the bible, but i havnt picked it up in 5+ years.

[geoff]

2timothy3:16- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Acts 2:38,39-"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

Matthew 23:36-40 "36*“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38*This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

1john 4:1-6 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."

Man I could go on and on with hundreds of examples where you are wrong. How can you profess to be a Christian (Christ like) and believe there are many ways to God? Every word you said contradicted not only the Bible but the entire faith itself. Do not be confused with teachings of false prophets that would make you to conform to the world and turn you into a "modern liberal" Christian. We are to be in the world not of it. You deny the Word of God as authority and write it off as a work of man to guide us. And the part about sex before marriage...not one in the Bible or in the Christian faith does it condone this. Either you are misguided and confused or a safe atheist. By that I mean that you profess to believe yet deny the commanded lifestyle of righteousness. One who lives how they please but believes simply being "good" is enough. I direct this scripture at exactly what you said and those who follow this belief.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

[geoff]

I believe even atheists would know that what your saying does not follow the teachings of Christ.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I appreciate your honesty. I also appreciate you being so open. Don't think that you are the only one that has had doubts or what not. Also, don't think that you are the only one with worldly experience. I have done just about everything under the sun. I am not the poster boy image of Christianity. We have different stories and different end results, but we both faced the same thing. I was raised in church till 10. It was in the Romanian language and I never understood it or had "faith" from 10 till 19 I was not around anything Christian. I drank, smoked bud, partied, slept around, ect...one day that all got old. Some how some way I came to know God again. This time in a deeper more personal way. I have eye witness miracles and been the subject of some. I know from my own personal experience God is real. It has been a year since I had anything to do with church (my own struggles and battles there). I since slipped back into the man I was before Christ found me. I admit this to my shame. You and I are now the same. I have belief but live as if I didn't, that puts me in the same boat as those that do not believe at all. A Christian will face trials in life that test ones faith to the limit of breaking. What saddens me most of all about your story was that you couldn't hold on to yours. You reached a transition in your faith. One where God no longer saw you as a "babe" that could only take the work as "milk to a babe" but rather as a man whom was ready to recieve the "meat" of the Word and go to a level of spirituality that few men obtain. To say you could have been great in the Kingdom is putting it lightly. Again I am saddened that you could not experience that. You say you feel sorry for me, don't. I have tasted much of what the world has to offer and it was bitter. My relationship with God was as honey to my lips. I indeed feel sorry for you that you could not experience what I did. If you ever find yourself in the position I am in now to try and regain your faith and find God again, I weep for you. It is all but impossible to achieve. The Bible says itself it is 7 times harder to come back. It leaves a man empty, feeling lost in the world yet also lost in the Kingdom. But, if you do one day try again, I will tell you Gid never left you. He is right were you left Him, waiting. Listen closely and you still might hear that still small voice, the whisper of Divinity. I will pray for you. You may not care for that, but sometimes it takes the plea of one on the behalf of another to catch His attention. If you could only find the faith of a musterd seed, it would remove mountains of doubt. I will quote something you have heard before in closing, " you may have lost faith in God, but He never lost faith in you." God bless.

[.blank cd]

I believe even atheists would know that what your saying does not follow the teachings of Christ.
Looks like cyb is the only thing left giving Christianity a positive look. He's definitely not a true Christian, and that's a good thing. True Christians are irrational and dangerous people who misinterpret the scripture, and who use it to try and manipulate others because they believe they've been divinely instructed to do so.

[geoff]

Blank your idea of Christianity is wrong. It is not a religion to appease men, but to please God. What you have seen of the "church" is not what the image of Christ is. Some would use Christianity as a tool of fear to bully others and obtain some personal agenda. That is not my religion. Still waiting for your reply to my rebuttle...

[Sinfix_15]

who does more harm to the world? Atheist or televangelist?

[geoff]

A televangelist is not a Christian. I have never read anyone in the Bible having to pay for miracles. Those men are actually charlotans. To say that there are false teachers and that Christianity has a smeared name is putting it lightly. Too many opinions, too much greed, too much agenda. Christianity needs to get back to the fundementals.

[Sinfix_15]

A televangelist is not a Christian. I have never read anyone in the Bible having to pay for miracles. Those men are actually charlotans. To say that there are false teachers and that Christianity has a smeared name is putting it lightly. Too many opinions, too much greed, too much agenda. Christianity needs to get back to the fundementals.

I feel you're in the minority even among "your people"

[geoff]

Meaning?

[Sinfix_15]

Meaning?

Meaning that there's a lot more blood sucking vultures like televangelist in the world than somewhat reasonable people like you who want things to be "back to the fundamentals"

[bu villain]

By villain: what would be enough for you to believe?

I take things on a claim by claim basis. I don't see the bible as either being all true or all fiction. I already believe in many things that are in the bible. I believe Jesus existed, he had disciples, etc. There is a enough objective evidence from outside the bible to support this. I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to support that he was anything more than human. I frankly can't fathom how many of the major claims made in the bible could be proved or disproved since they are supernatural.

[bu villain]

And yes it happens in nature but as said by randomguy that it does not make it natural or right. Incest is also found in nature. So is sex of an older gender with one that has just come to maturity. Yet we do not condone a mother/son, brother/sister/ cousins sexual relationship. We do not condone a 40 year old man having sex with a girl that just reached maturity ( right around the age of 13 ). So, why do some condone same sex relationships but condone incest and pedophilia even if it is consented?
...
It is unnatural in the fact that men and men and women and women are not designed to have intercourse with one another. The anatomy just does not add up. And take religion or God out of the debate, two men and two women can never reproduce, and sex in its most primitive form is a tool for reproduction.

Just wanted to respond to this because this is such a common argument:

First of all, homosexuality is found in nature. Therefor, by definition, homosexuality is natural. It is pointless to argue about because it doesn't matter anyways. We don't make laws based on what is natural (e.g., killing).

Now that's out of the way. Lets make explicit why homosexuality is distinctly different from the other situations often brought up:

Homosexuality - Two consenting adults
Pedophilia - A child is not considered able to give consent due to the lack or maturity/brain development
Incest - A child of an incestual couple is at a much higher risk for birth defects due to the lack of gene mixing.
Beastiality - Similar to a child, we cannot determine consent and can't even say they have the brain development to understand such a notion.

Geoff also talks about anatomy/reproduction. Certainly we don't prevent infertile people or people who don't want kids at all from getting married so we can not say marriage is about reproduction. Heterosexual couples do lots of things with their anatomy that will never produce a baby, so I don't understand why anatomy matters.

If you want to have a good argument about why we shouldn't allow gay marriage, you need more convincing arguments.

[Sinfix_15]

Just wanted to respond to this because this is such a common argument:

First of all, homosexuality is found in nature. Therefor, by definition, homosexuality is natural. It is pointless to argue about because it doesn't matter anyways. We don't make laws based on what is natural (e.g., killing).

Now that's out of the way. Lets make explicit why homosexuality is distinctly different from the other situations often brought up:

Homosexuality - Two consenting adults
Pedophilia - A child is not considered able to give consent due to the lack or maturity/brain development
Incest - A child of an incestual couple is at a much higher risk for birth defects due to the lack of gene mixing.
Beastiality - Similar to a child, we cannot determine consent and can't even say they have the brain development to understand such a notion.

Geoff also talks about anatomy/reproduction. Certainly we don't prevent infertile people or people who don't want kids at all from getting married so we can not say marriage is about reproduction. Heterosexual couples do lots of things with their anatomy that will never produce a baby, so I don't understand why anatomy matters.

If you want to have a good argument about why we shouldn't allow gay marriage, you need more convincing arguments.

http://www.caseclosedteam.com/images/caseclosed2.gif

[geoff]

^ I could debate this, but it is off topic. Each side I believe can make a strong argument. But I will say this, the government did not force this on anyone. The people voted and the majority rules in this country. The people of the GLBT community can fuss all they want. It was put to a vote and the majority spoke. That is a simple fact.

Now, anyone care to discuss the points I made or are we in a general consensus that the Buble does not condone slavery and rape?

[Sinfix_15]

^ I could debate this, but it is off topic. Each side I believe can make a strong argument. But I will say this, the government did not force this on anyone. The people voted and the majority rules in this country. The people of the GLBT community can fuss all they want. It was put to a vote and the majority spoke. That is a simple fact.

Now, anyone care to discuss the points I made or are we in a general consensus that the Buble does not condone slavery and rape?

I think the answer is both. The bible both condones and condemns slavery and rape. The bible is a paradox, it offers you what ever answer you're looking for because it offers both answers.


a modern day jury would convict God assuming the story given was accurate. If God gave someone the power to conquer a city and then they enslaved and raped the women inside that city, he would be an accomplice. The people around Jerry Sandusky are being held accountable for allowing it to happen. What God did (according to the story) would be like handing Jerry Sandusky the key to the boys locker room.


Numbers 31:7-18
7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba —the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army —the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

[.blank cd]

^ I could debate this, but it is off topic. Each side I believe can make a strong argument. But I will say this, the government did not force this on anyone. The people voted and the majority rules in this country. The people of the GLBT community can fuss all they want. It was put to a vote and the majority spoke. That is a simple fact. It's definitely a secular issue, but the Christian right has yet to come up with a strong secular argument against it, and since science isn't on their side, and since the only Christian argument against it only applies to themselves and not other people, they never will. The tyranny of the ignorant masses will suppress the rights of the few in this case. Refer to the presidential election of 2004 if you wanna learn more about "Majority Rules in America"

[geoff]

The Bible does not condone it. Show me a scripture that says God commanded the Israelites to rape and take slaves. You can't because it's not in there. The Bible is as much a historical account as filled with Gods commands. The scripture you put up are an account of the Israelites in the wilderness who went to conquer the Cannanites. They were a nation of idolaters and sacrificed their children to false gods. God told the Israelites He would give them that land, but they were to destroy the inhabitants for their false worship and all of their goods. Moses is angry because they did not do as they were commanded. The first of the 10 commandments is hear o Israel, the Lord thy God is one God. And you shall have no other gods before Him. The punishment for sin is death. The Israelites were to carry out this punishment and failed to do so. There are laws and consequences for braking them. You do not have to agree just as you do not agree with modern law/punishment. It does not change the fact that those were the rules. As far as rape goes, those men took the virgins as there wives. Marriage then was a business arabgement where love was hardly ever a factor. But the women were to be treated as one with the man. Abuse against a wife was punishable by death sometimes.

[geoff]

Blank cd: you seem to make this out to be a Christian only issue yet you failed to provide any writings of any religion that says two men having sex or getting married are supported. And regardless of how you twist it, the voters spoke. The ignorant masses? Yes I forgot that the atheists are the "enlightened ones". Get over yourself man. You have shown what little comprehension you have of my religion. You show everyone that you are the "ignorant" one when you try to use my own beliefs against me, again without the slightest comprehension of what you are even trying to use against me. Your idea of a perfect society is one where everyone gets paid the same regardless of what their job is, no rules, no God, no consequences. Then you will be truly "free".

[Sinfix_15]

Blank cd: you seem to make this out to be a Christian only issue yet you failed to provide any writings of any religion that says two men having sex or getting married are supported. And regardless of how you twist it, the voters spoke. The ignorant masses? Yes I forgot that the atheists are the "enlightened ones". Get over yourself man. You have shown what little comprehension you have of my religion. You show everyone that you are the "ignorant" one when you try to use my own beliefs against me, again without the slightest comprehension of what you are even trying to use against me. Your idea of a perfect society is one where everyone gets paid the same regardless of what their job is, no rules, no God, no consequences. Then you will be truly "free".

The richest man in the world is an atheist. Several geniuses are atheist. An overwhelming majority of scientist are atheist. There's plenty of people more intelligent than us that do not believe in god. It's not a misunderstanding.... its a choice. The choice to side with rational explanation over having faith.


i dont understand how you can view them taking the virgins as their wives as an acceptable act..... what of the boys and nonvirgins who were slaughtered?

[geoff]

Sinfix: my point is that blank cd and most atheists would make it seem that believers are simply stupid. I have seen the movies religulous and the God delusion. Both Dawkins and Mayer made no sense to me or had any intelligent response to remarks of those that have beliefs. Any opposition to their "rational" ideals and atheist belief was laughed at and mocked. They commented that it was "ridiculous". They don't ever have an intelligent debate or comebacks. I saw a video of a lecture Dawkins gave where one Christian stood up and asked, "well, what if you're wrong?" Dawkins replied, "what if I'm not". Seriously? This man is supposed to be an intellect and avoided debate by simply shrugging it off as non sense. You expect me to believe in a theory that says everything came from nothing, for no apparent reason, and for no purpose, then again for no reason a star eventually evolved into me? A theory that in itself tries to explain nature yet goes against the laws that govern it. And you call believers irrational...lol. Science is not all knowing, and cannot explain everything. It cannot explain the supernatural at present. That does not mean the supernatural is to be dismissed as a fairy tale. Their is evidence to suggest a creator, or rather that a creator is possible. Yet atheists dismiss it as poppycock. As an atheist you have no belief in anything and shouldn't really care about another's beliefs. So why go around try to put down those that have a belief? Is there maybe a hidden agenda, you tell me.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: my point is that blank cd and most atheists would make it seem that believers are simply stupid. I have seen the movies religulous and the God delusion. Both Dawkins and Mayer made no sense to me or had any intelligent response to remarks of those that have beliefs. Any opposition to their "rational" ideals and atheist belief was laughed at and mocked. They commented that it was "ridiculous". They don't ever have an intelligent debate or comebacks. I saw a video of a lecture Dawkins gave where one Christian stood up and asked, "well, what if you're wrong?" Dawkins replied, "what if I'm not". Seriously? This man is supposed to be an intellect and avoided debate by simply shrugging it off as non sense. You expect me to believe in a theory that says everything came from nothing, for no apparent reason, and for no purpose, then again for no reason a star eventually evolved into me? A theory that in itself tries to explain nature yet goes against the laws that govern it. And you call believers irrational...lol. Science is not all knowing, and cannot explain everything. It cannot explain the supernatural at present. That does not mean the supernatural is to be dismissed as a fairy tale. Their is evidence to suggest a creator, or rather that a creator is possible. Yet atheists dismiss it as poppycock. As an atheist you have no belief in anything and shouldn't really care about another's beliefs. So why go around try to put down those that have a belief? Is there maybe a hidden agenda, you tell me.

I dont doubt that their could be *something* out there that created us, i just dont believe the jesus christ story. Hard to imagine that we're the only planet with life on it, why wouldnt the bible address any of that?

why be anti-christian and put those down that have a belief? I dont particularly care about how you live your life, im happy for you if youre happy with christianity. Me personally, my only "beef" with it is the effect it has on my life. If christianity had no hand in politics or law, id have nothing against it. The bible is your law, chose to live by it. Dont force me to live by it. You dont need a law passed to follow your law. The laws that christians try to pass are put in place for people like me, to force me to live by your standard. Every day when i come home from work, i drive past about 50 churches.... i read their signs and such, look at their crosses they hang up... i have no problem with it, drive right past and go on with my life. I want the same from christians. If you dont want your kid playing that video game with nudity in it, dont buy it. If you dont like Metallica, dont go to their concerts. If you dont like internet porn..... thats why google has a safe search. If you dont want to marry a man, dont....... You're more than welcome to "drive right past" all of these things and continue living your life for God.

[.blank cd]

I saw a video of a lecture Dawkins gave where one Christian stood up and asked, "well, what if you're wrong?" Dawkins replied, "what if I'm not". Seriously? This man is supposed to be an intellect and avoided debate by simply shrugging it off as non sense.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence


You expect me to believe in a theory that says everything came from nothing, for no apparent reason, and for no purpose, then again for no reason a star eventually evolved into me? The same way you expect me to believe that everything came from nothing for no apparent reason or purpose, only my argument has physical evidence to support it.


A theory that in itself tries to explain nature yet goes against the laws that govern it.How does it do that? Try not to use made up thermodynamics arguments, especially if you're not familiar with thermodynamics and entropy, because they've all been properly debunked. The explanation is there. Just because you don't believe it or understand it doesn't mean it doesn't happen


And you call believers irrational...lol. Science is not all knowing, and cannot explain everything. It cannot explain the supernatural at present.Nor does it try to explain the supernatural, because thats what it means: not natural. Science is going to be there in your everyday life, you can't just dismiss parts of it because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs


Is there maybe a hidden agenda, you tell me.Knowledge, because religion tells us it's ok to not understand the world


Unitarian Universalism and Pastafarianism both take a positive stance on homosexuality.

[S4saken]

Damn I hate bible thumpers who try to push religion on other people. If God is real let all the non believers burn in hell, whats it to you you'll be in heaven bored out of your mind with all the shit you consider sin out of the picture.

The bible is written so generally that you can pull a line out of it and say the bible predicted it.

I used to work at juvenile justice center with a Jehovah Witness who was alway preaching what was right and wrong, one night one of the kids (about 11 or 12 years old) got out of bed and walked into another room and punch another kid, the Jehovah yanked the kid out of the room and chocked him the fuck out with both hands around his neck, it took me and another counselor to pull him off.

The point of that cool story is that you guy walk around pointing out other peoples faults and shit and are just as bad.
You pass judgment on people do not believing what you believe, to me that's just as bad a racism.

What an epic fail thread, WTF is it doing on a car enthusiast forum?

[geoff]

Sinfix: I will say this, "if a man stands for nothing, he will fall for anything". Where do we draw the line on appeasment? There will always be some new minority group that screams that their constitutional rights are being impeded. Take incest for example. It does no harm to anyone. It does not Impeed on anyone's rights. As yo stated above, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex, therefore contraceptives can be use and their is always abortion right? You ask any couple that practices it and they will say they genuinely love eachother. Therefore, why make it illegal? Is it because society sees it as "disgusting" or "perversion"? How conservative of us. By your own definitions, it should be legal. Two concenting adults, practicing a relationship that harms nor impedes on rights, no need for offspring, and effects no one else, and it occurs in nature. So why is it wrong? I can see the point you make. I am not one that holds up a "God hates fags" sign. But at some point, morals and values must be upheld otherwise one thing leads to another and this world goes beyond redemption.

Blank: Science would not agree with your statements about a lack of evidence being just cause for dismissal. After all, at one point we could not explain gravity or the laws of thermal dynamics. That does not mean they didn't exist until we had the means to study them. I can offer you the how, when, why and by whom life came from. Your theory leaves many more questions to be answered. I can even show you evidences that point to a creator. One does not view a piece of art and assume it just appeared, we know it was created by an artist. I can give you many examples of "holes" in your theories and scientific explanation. I can also ask you one simple question, why did life create itself from nothing? Also, you gave me two examples of modern religions that support gay marriage. Unitarian universalism and pastafarianism are not religions, with the later being an actual parody religion. The universalists have no central belief nor practices. They are a modern group of appeasers that want to make everybody feel good. You also failed to answer the actual question I asked. I asked you to provide me with a single scripture from any religions holy writings that supported gay marriage. I have come to understand that you may not have a mind of your own. That your religion is google search. You sir are informant and foolish. Don't believe me, I can show you tangible evidence that proves this. Your own words paint this vivid picture. you have not shown the slightest comprehension of my religion or made even a single intelligent rebutall against any of my points.

[S4saken]

And just so you don't think that I'm against Christianity or that I think Christians are stupid let me just put it out there that I am happily married to a Christian woman.

We talk about why I don't believe in the bible and why she does and we respect each others views. I don't try to convince her that the bible isn't true and she doesn't try to get me to believe that it is.

Our 6 year old daughter says Grace before every meal and preys before she goes to bed, I'll even read her a bible story occasionally. She asks questions that to me are really hard to answer, she'll say thing like " why did they throw rocks at her" or "it sounds like they killed him, why did they do that?" I try to give her an unbiased answer because I want her to make the choice herself when she is older whether she wants to believe or not.

I come from a Christian family as well and I see the disappointment in my mothers eyes every time it brought up that I'm aithiest.

So my beef isn't with Christianity, it with Christians or any other overly religious person trying to sell religion like its a fucking extended warranty at Best Buy. I don't need it so stop talking to me about it.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I will say this, "if a man stands for nothing, he will fall for anything". Where do we draw the line on appeasment? There will always be some new minority group that screams that their constitutional rights are being impeded. Take incest for example. It does no harm to anyone. It does not Impeed on anyone's rights. As yo stated above, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex, therefore contraceptives can be use and their is always abortion right? You ask any couple that practices it and they will say they genuinely love eachother. Therefore, why make it illegal? Is it because society sees it as "disgusting" or "perversion"? How conservative of us. By your own definitions, it should be legal. Two concenting adults, practicing a relationship that harms nor impedes on rights, no need for offspring, and effects no one else, and it occurs in nature. So why is it wrong? I can see the point you make. I am not one that holds up a "God hates fags" sign. But at some point, morals and values must be upheld otherwise one thing leads to another and this world goes beyond redemption.


who decides morals and values? pretty big difference between what you think is moral and what i think is moral. I look at porn daily. I wouldnt marry someone without sleeping with them.... a thousand times. I curse hourly. I think birth control is the greatest thing since the color television. I dont care if guys marry each other, more women for the rest of us. Nudity is great, i wish there was more of it.

Yet somehow... someway.... i live a perfectly moral life and cause no harm to anyone. Ive never been arrested, never stole anything, and never been in trouble. I feel my lifestyle is perfectly moral. When i chose to go to church, i follow the rules and blend in, i dont stand out front with picket signs like they do at Marilyn Manson concerts. I compromise with christians.... personally, i think a picture of someone nailed to a cross is much more obscene than a nude female, but i'm ok with these images being displayed openly.

The problem with this battle between religious and nonreligious is that the religious side feels that they have the authority over the nonreligious.

[.blank cd]

Take incest for example. It does no harm to anyone. It does not Impeed on anyone's rights. As yo stated above, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex, therefore contraceptives can be use and their is always abortion right? You ask any couple that practices it and they will say they genuinely love eachother. Therefore, why make it illegal? Is it because society sees it as "disgusting" or "perversion"? How conservative of us. By your own definitions, it should be legal. Two concenting adults, practicing a relationship that harms nor impedes on rights, no need for offspring, and effects no one else, and it occurs in nature. So why is it wrong? I can see the point you make. I am not one that holds up a "God hates fags" sign. But at some point, morals and values must be upheld otherwise one thing leads to another and this world goes beyond redemption.An incestuous relationship between two consenting adults isn't wrong, it's taboo. Incest should not be criminal unless it infringes on someone else's liberties, like if one of the parties were a minor or otherwise not be able to think for themselves.

Who's the ultimate authority on this worlds morals and values? Christians? And under who's fine judgment makes the call on the worlds redemption? Christians? There are 7 billion people on earth, and sorry to say, you are in the minority with only 2 billion worldwide followers. 5 billion people got religion wrong and will burn in hell. So when you ask if it's worth gambling eternity for, it seems as if the odds are stacked in my favor.

Hate to break it to ya but morality doesn't come from a book. If it does for you, what does that really say about you? The only thing stopping you from murder, rape, theft, deception is 1000 pages of mistranslated text from 2000 years ago?


Blank: Science would not agree with your statements about a lack of evidence being just cause for dismissal. After all, at one point we could not explain gravity or the laws of thermal dynamics.As a student of science, science rarely disagrees with me. Again, what can be ASSERTED (not hypothesized) without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence


That does not mean they didn't exist until we had the means to study them. I can offer you the how, when, why and by whom life came from. And unless you can show physical evidence for your theory, you have a conjecture. We do not have means to study that which transcends reality.


Your theory leaves many more questions to be answered.Luke 11:9


I can even show you evidences that point to a creator. One does not view a piece of art and assume it just appeared, we know it was created by an artist. I can give you many examples of "holes" in your theories and scientific explanation.I don't assume art just appears either. I know someone created it. There's physical evidence for the artist too: I can touch him, talk to him, ask him about his feelings, I can touch the paint, the brush, the pencil. I can paint with the same tools. I can even find out where those tools come from.


I can also ask you one simple question, why did life create itself from nothing?No one ever said life came from nothing, except the bible. Genesis 1 says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Logically, before this happens, we must infer that there was nothing (other than himself). Life obviously comes from something. That's one of those things fundamentalist Christians either don't want to ask or are afraid of the answer because it goes against what their bible says.


Also, you gave me two examples of modern religions that support gay marriage. Unitarian universalism and pastafarianism are not religions, with the later being an actual parody religion.Pastafarianism has scripture, followers, and a deity. What more do you need? The same can be said about Christianity.


You also failed to answer the actual question I asked. I asked you to provide me with a single scripture from any religions holy writings that supported gay marriage. The new testament takes a neutral stance on homosexuality. Its only mentioned a few times in the Pauline epistles, zero times in the gospels, nothing in hebrews, acts, revelation, or john. Any inferred passages are ambiguous or have disputed translations. But feel free to quote some scripture and interpret it in your own way. I can put a neutral stance in my positive column, but most Christians will still believe its wrong

[geoff]

S4saken: no one forced anything on you. You came in here and posted. I never pushed my beliefs on anyone in here or condemn anyone to hell. I posted up about myself, that I am in no shape to judge anyone. I firmly believe that those who point fingers should be careful, they have three pointing back at them. Even my Bible says the same thing. My problem with some on here try to use scripture and my own beliefs to make a point against me. I don't go to an engineer and tell him how to build a bridge because I don't know what I'm talking about. You paint an accurate picture of a lot of Christians, but not all. A true Christian does not force beliefs on anyone. They are to share their personal testimony, give the message of salvation, and the let God do the rest. They do so out of love. To us, we see a world commuting suicide and care enough to try and stop them. Like I said to Sinfix, Christianity has wandered off the path. We need to get back to simple fundementals. Your wife still talks to you about it because she loves you, but leaves it to you to make the choice, as every man does. Sounds like God blessed you with a good woman.

Sinfix: I see your points, but you still did not address mine...I'm still waiting.

Blank cd: First off, If you believe in the freedom of incestual relationships, maybe you should start a movement. I would argue that you stand as a minority with your views on incest. We all have a conscience instilled in us by God and do not need a book to give us morality. I'm not sure where you ever got me saying this.Further more, like I said my belief can give answers to all the questions and I can show evidences that point to a purpose and design of life that dismisses claims that everything is random. You still didn't answer my question of why. To simply deny that there is a possibility of a creator is foolish. Science aims to find truth no matter where it leads, except today it's more like science is out to prove God does not exist. I can get in a science debate with you if you want, but let's take that to another thread and stay on topic here as this will get lengthy. You ignored my comment about the universalists and chose to stick with pastafarianism...sad. Pastafarianism is a joke...literally...therefore it can not be taken seriously. You still didn't show me any holy writings that support gays, guess google let you down. Speaking of which, your argument about homosexuality in the New Testament is yet another fail. Your argument looks much like one on Wikipedia...nice try though. Here is a link you might want to read...www.bible-truths.com/homosex. You are describing to me beliefs of the new age "modern" church that seeks to appease everyone, condemn no sin, and has cast aside their own scriptural beliefs so that they may grow and take in more money. They are as corrupt as the catholic church. Seriously man, do some research before you post. I will say it again, you have no knowledge about my faith or religion. You have the words of men that have come up with their own ideals. Further more, the only scripture being mistranslated here are the ones you provided that are the interpretations of those who would change the meaning to fit their modern and misguided agenda. One can not simply change scripture to fit in with today's lost world.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I see your points, but you still did not address mine...I'm still waiting.



I agree with blank on incest, it's not something i condone, but i see no reason to criminalize it assuming said relationship follows other laws in place. The argument against it would be birth defects.... but i dont see women getting thrown in jail for drinking and smoking during their pregnancy, so why should that be treated any different.

It's not that i stand for nothing. I feel we're still seeking the answers.... i dont think anyone knows anything about anything. At one time we thought the world was flat...... when i look up into the sky and see millions of stars we cant reach and then go for a ride in my car powered by fossil fuel, i just dont think myself or any man walking this earth has the answers for the creation of the universe. Any evidence that supports the existence of Jesus Christ doesnt sway me either. I dont doubt that Jesus was real or that some of his stories were accurate. I dont think there is any way of proving that he was the son of God. The only historical evidence that supports him being the son of God is that other people believed he was. How would you even begin to prove a claim like this?

Do i believe Jesus was real? yes.
Do i believe Jesus died on a cross? yes.
Do i believe that Jesus told people he was the son of God? yes.
Do i believe that Jesus had a following of people who believed what he told them? yes.
Do i believe he is the son of God? No, absolutely not.
Do i believe there is a God? Maybe... maybe not. I'd like to think that there is, but im not going to pretend there is to make me feel better about life. And i would hope someone powerful and all knowing would not care about petty things like the bible's description of sin. It just doesnt make logical sense.

why are these things a sin? why are we so different from everything else in nature? The 1st commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." if you're the only God... what is the point of even saying this? who are you even referring to......... it's like if you and your wife were stranded on an island together and you're questioning her about sleeping with a coworker... i just dont get it. God sounds very jealous and vengeful. Jealousy generally stems from insecurity, why would God be insecure?

The stories just do not make logical sense. The 1st 3 commandments sound like a jealous rant..... of a MAN...... not a God.



If this all happened in 2012, it would have lasted for about 30 minutes with 3 commercial breaks. Mary would have been on Maury Povich getting DNA results from some of the local farmers, after a dramatic pause he would have said "Mathew, you ARE the father!!!!!" and that would have been the end of christianity before it ever started.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I dare describe you as an agnostic more that an atheist. That being said, you said that you can't believe Jesus was the son of God. But you admit that's what He taught and He had a significant group following Him. There could therefore be two conclusions. Either He was who He said He was, or a lunitic. Seeing how He had a large following that grew greatly withing a few generations would point to Him being legitimate. After all, there is a new 2nd Messiah among us( the Hispanic guy) claiming to be the son of God. Where is His nation of followers, where is his historic movement? Why does he not put his claims to test? Christ did, He died, and according to His followers rose again. I respect you man, you seem like a guy I could have a beer with. Unlike blank cd, you are rational and admit you don't think anyone has it completely figured out. The difference between me and you, I have faith in the history and spiritual teachings of Christ.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix: I dare describe you as an agnostic more that an atheist. That being said, you said that you can't believe Jesus was the son of God. But you admit that's what He taught and He had a significant group following Him. There could therefore be two conclusions. Either He was who He said He was, or a lunitic. Seeing how He had a large following that grew greatly withing a few generations would point to Him being legitimate. After all, there is a new 2nd Messiah among us( the Hispanic guy) claiming to be the son of God. Where is His nation of followers, where is his historic movement? Why does he not put his claims to test? Christ did, He died, and according to His followers rose again. I respect you man, you seem like a guy I could have a beer with. Unlike blank cd, you are rational and admit you don't think anyone has it completely figured out. The difference between me and you, I have faith in the history and spiritual teachings of Christ.

Well.... the only thing it takes to be a leader... is followers. That doesnt mean you're anyone of significance and using your own argument against you, other religious figures have more followers than Jesus, so they must be real also? I think the reason Christianity is such a wildfire historically is just a case of perfect time and place. As i said jokingly before, if this story happened tomorrow, it would have never got started. The technology you would use to refute Jesus' claims didnt exist at the time. I'm also not ruling out the possibility that he was a lunatic. That's exactly what you would say to someone if they made this claim today.

It would be like if i had a drag race on a country road and claimed i ran 9s. Everyone who watched it saw my car pop a wheelie and fly by, nobody doubted the car was fast... but who really knows if it was a 9 or not. I could claim 9s... and nobody could really prove me wrong, but i couldnt really prove i was telling the truth either, no matter how many onlookers supported my claim. Maybe the entire crowd believed i ran 9s...... still wouldnt make it true. Maybe it was... maybe it wasnt... given the evidence you have, it's easier to make a case that it didnt happen or was exaggerated. A scientific explanation would be something like "the length of road was only 1.5 miles, on a dusty road its safe to assume the 60ft was 2 seconds or above, with the rate of speed it would take to make a 9 second pass, he probably wouldnt have had time to stop the car if he went that fast, plus the car's gear ratio wouldnt support a top speed fast enough to make a 9 second pass"......

but.... even using all of that logic to refute the claim.... it still doesnt prove it isnt true. That's how i look at this argument.... the only reason we cant clearly prove that youre wrong is because it simply cant be proven. Maybe one day we'll get some new info to work with..... who knows. I'd personally like to think that the truth is a much bigger story than what any of us believe. Looking at the universe, we're a spec of sand on the beach.


And i agree... you're definitely someone i could see myself getting along with.

[.blank cd]

I think the reason Christianity is such a wildfire historically is just a case of perfect time and place.There is a specific historical reason Christianity is so widespread, and if it weren't for this reason, Geoff would be on here preaching about some other god, probably Mithras.

[geoff]

Sinfix: I meant a literal beer lol.

Blank: and what is this historical specific occurrence that causes me to believe in Christ and not some other god?

[geoff]

I have a question for you guys. You don't believe in the ultimate good, what about evil, ghosts, demons, aliens?

[.blank cd]

Sinfix: I meant a literal beer lol.

Blank: and what is this historical specific occurrence that causes me to believe in Christ and not some other god?

I figured you could enlighten us, or do you not know?

[.blank cd]

I have a question for you guys. You don't believe in the ultimate good, what about evil, ghosts, demons, aliens?

I believe there's good, just as I believe there's evil. Ghosts and demons, no. Other sentient life in the universe? Sure, why not

[geoff]

You made the statement of some historical event that makes me preach Christ...so why don't you enlighten me. So other life out there can exist without us having any proof but eyewitness accounts and unexplainable phenomenon, but I present you with eyewitness accounts, personal experience, historical documentation and there is no possible way God exists. There is no shadow of a doubt that God is a figment of billions of people's imaginations...that about right?

[.blank cd]

You made the statement of some historical event that makes me preach Christ...so why don't you enlighten me. Why not. In the early first century, in the Roman empire, Mithraism was on the rise, so much so that it became a rival religion of Christianity, and was at a point the more popular than it. No one is exactly clear on when the turning point was, but in the 3rd century, Christians began to outnumber Mithrans and eventually exterminate the religion. Then Theodosius came to power and made Christianity the state religion. So that ended Mithraism's chapter.


So other life out there can exist without us having any proof but eyewitness accounts and unexplainable phenomenon, but I present you with eyewitness accounts, personal experience, historical documentation and there is no possible way God exists. There is no shadow of a doubt that God is a figment of billions of people's imaginations...that about right?You've presented me with shaky eyewitness accounts--from the bible, historical documentation--from the bible, and personal experience based on what you read and interpreted--in the bible. You've pointed to ONE textbook with unreliable sources, and ZERO physical evidence as your damning proof of your god. And less than a third of the people in the world believe it, and that number shrinks every day. So sorry if I'm skeptical.

We know what it takes to make life. We can dissect the Lego pieces, we know where these pieces come from, and we're finding some of the exact same Legos in other parts of space, and we know the events it takes to make all these pieces happens all the time. So the physical evidence for extra terrestrial life is pretty outstanding.

"A lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is still the truth even if no one believes it"

[geoff]

Citation please for where Mithraism was larger than Christianity. Maybe in Rome, while Christianity was branching out from Jeruselem. The Apostle Paul is the one who brought the message to the Romans. The Mysteries of Mithra were a secular underground cult, but in all reality, a branch of paganism. I haven't provided you anything shaky. I rebuked your attempt to use scripture. I can provide you with all I know on the subject, but are you willing to listen. And what physical evidence?

[E36slide]

The bible is bs..... that's all.


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[geoff]

^ah yes, this must be true. So much intelligence in this comment... I see the light now. Come on man. I have not seen one intelligent display of insight or rebutal. Atleast Sinfix has been logical and stated why he believes what he does. An opposition like that I can respect, and QD as well.

[bu villain]

I have a question for you guys. You don't believe in the ultimate good, what about evil, ghosts, demons, aliens?

I believe in good and evil as descriptions for things that are in line with and out of line, respectively, with my morality.
Even though I can't say 100% they don't exist, I don't believe in ghosts or demons because up to now, the evidence is unconvincing.
Even though I can't say 100% they exist, I believe alien life exists because the conditions and elements that allow life on earth seem to be common enough from what we know of the universe.
Even though I can't say 100% God doesn't exist, I am an atheist because I have not seen evidence to convince me that he does.

The main point is that all belief is really on a continuum. I call one side "Don't believe" and the other side "Believe". The middle is I don't know. There isn't a clear line between them and where I stand is continually changing based on new experiences and evidence.

[E36slide]

There are human remains that out date the bible. Its a way to make money. A lot of ppl don't even know about the bible or god. So who's to say they will go to this so called "hell". It sounds far fetch. I think when you die your brain release chemicals that cause you to go into a dream like state. There's no way someone would forgive another person for their sins. If jesus forgives all then that means the old ass dudes who rape little kids are forgiven.....

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[geoff]

Buvillian: I repsect your views. In all, it's how one perceives the evidences. We are two different sides of the same coin. I respect the fact that you don't mock those with belief or try to make them seem irrational or plain stupid. I for one have researched the opposing side to my beliefs, and I still stick with my faith.

E36slide: first I would say that the current carbon dating method is not accepted by all. The calculation itself is reliant on assumption and guess work. Not to mention that there are also differing opinions on the Biblical timeline as well.

[.blank cd]

E36slide: first I would say that the current carbon dating method is not accepted by all. The calculation itself is reliant on assumption and guess work.Huh? Sounds like this comes from your lack of knowledge about carbon dating. It is the accepted method through all scientific bodies involved with the process, so I don't know where you picked that up from, other than one of those anti-science Christian blogs

But I bet carbon dating was spot on when they dated the dead sea scrolls, wasnt it? Lol

[bu villain]

Buvillian: I repsect your views. In all, it's how one perceives the evidences. We are two different sides of the same coin. I respect the fact that you don't mock those with belief or try to make them seem irrational or plain stupid. I for one have researched the opposing side to my beliefs, and I still stick with my faith.

It definitely is how one perceives the evidence. I don't believe faith in Christianity has anything to do with intelligence. I do believe it is illogical to believe in God but none of us are completely logical, nor do I think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think people should embrace their emotional/illogical side and quit trying to argue faith from a logical perspective. That's as backwards as saying the purpose of math is to inspire the soul.

[.blank cd]

That's as backwards as saying the purpose of math is to inspire the soul.I don't care what you say. Math inspires my soul! Lol

[S4saken]

S4saken: no one forced anything on you. You came in here and posted. I never pushed my beliefs on anyone in here or condemn anyone to hell. I posted up about myself, that I am in no shape to judge anyone. I firmly believe that those who point fingers should be careful, they have three pointing back at them. Even my Bible says the same thing. My problem with some on here try to use scripture and my own beliefs to make a point against me. I don't go to an engineer and tell him how to build a bridge because I don't know what I'm talking about. You paint an accurate picture of a lot of Christians, but not all. A true Christian does not force beliefs on anyone. They are to share their personal testimony, give the message of salvation, and the let God do the rest. They do so out of love. To us, we see a world commuting suicide and care enough to try and stop them. Like I said to Sinfix, Christianity has wandered off the path. We need to get back to simple fundementals. Your wife still talks to you about it because she loves you, but leaves it to you to make the choice, as every man does. Sounds like God blessed you with a good woman

My post was not directed towards you Geoff you seem like a very educated person and make some very good points for your side of the debate. I lost faith when my life was at an all time low, I know you said earlier that everyone's faith is tested but I couldn't stick with it. I preyed until my knees were sore and begged for a response and got nothing in return. That's when I started feeling that I myself am in charge of my destiny. I admit sometime when I have strings of bad luck I ask myself, is this punishment for not believing? Then I tell myself no this just means I have to work harder.

I respect everyone's religion and I expect the same in return. I expect people to respect that I don't believe in God or the bible but unfortunately it not always like that. I get awkward looks and even had a girl in Wendy's laugh and shack her head when my friend told her I was Athiest. A lot of people think if your Athiest you must be evil or something. I choose to keep the fact that I'm Athiest to myself most of the time.

[bu villain]

I don't care what you say. Math inspires my soul! Lol

You may be joking but as an engineer, I actually have been inspired by math. My point was that math's ability to inspire (or not) is not what's most important about it. Similarly with religion, parts of it may be logical or illogical but that is not what makes it significant. That's why I think religious proponents who argue the logic of it are playing the wrong game.

[geoff]

S4saken: sometimes God provides, sometimes He opens doors for us to go through, and sometimes He leaves it to men to gather the stregnth to pull through, and sometimes we are to wait. God does not always give us the answer we seek. I can tell you as I told Sinfix, He is never far from you. He is right where you left Him...on your knees.

[sun2ner]

hey if its optional its optoinal. if you change your mind later you might find it in the parts section on here under the homosapine section lol