Christian Principles....

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Some people say the U.S. a christian nation founded on christian principles. What is a christian principle?

[-EnVus-]

Idk what principle may mean to them but it was built on catholic/Christian beliefs and ways.

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Idk what principle may mean to them but it was built on catholic/Christian beliefs and ways.So what is a catholic/christian belief and way? And how do you think it relates to the founding of the United states?

[andrewu]

Would you consider "one nation under God" a Christian principle?

[.blank cd]

Would you consider "one nation under God" a Christian principle?Nope. This was the phrase that was added to the pledge in the 50's during the red scare. Before this, we recited the pledge without the new phrase, and we did a Hitler-esque salute to the flag before the hand over the heart. This was known as the Bellamy Salute.

Im looking for a Christian-specific principle...

[andrewu]

Just saying because everytime I hear US and religion in the same sentence it moves to seperation of church and state and then the pledge is wrong but not sure if that kind of thread or not. Do religious colonies count?

[.blank cd]

Just saying because everytime I hear US and religion in the same sentence it moves to seperation of church and state and then the pledge is wrong but not sure if that kind of thread or not. Do religious colonies count?Its whatever kind of thread you want it to be. I'm just wanting to know what people believe the answer is...

Please explain more about the religious colonies

[Vteckidd]

The nations founders understood freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.

If you read the founding documents, I would say they were smart to not shove God down anyone's throat, but there are strong Christian principles involved.

Christian principles I'm sure there is some in the Bible. You can figure this out on your own

[Vteckidd]

I'd also say some christian principles aren't necessarily only specific to Christianity. It would be foolish to think only Christianity is "moral".

But I think its a pretty wildly accepted view that the founders were Christian, and had christian influence. All men created equal

[.blank cd]

The nations founders understood freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion."Of" includes "from"


If you read the founding documents, I would say they were smart to not shove God down anyone's throatI've read the constitution. Did you know "God" is not mentioned in it at all, anywhere?


Christian principles I'm sure there is some in the Bible.So what are they? There are a lot of principles in the Christian bible. Murder being one of them. I want to know one Christian-specific principle that this country was founded on.

[andrewu]

Settlers coming to the "New World" to escape religious persecution so they could worship their beliefs freely without the King and Church of England for example Mass. Bay colony. It was early settlement but still.

Debate on this would be totally different now and then. Some people might think based on "Christian principles" because the of the beliefs of the founders. I agree with God not being forced on people.

[Vteckidd]

I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of arguing what you already know so you can twist and try to make a point.

I'm also not going to do your research for you.

I've posted what you ask plenty of times go back and read

[.blank cd]

I'd also say some christian principles aren't necessarily only specific to Christianity. It would be foolish to think only Christianity is "moral". So then if these principles arent necessarily christian specific, would it not be foolish to say that this country was founded on christian principles, since the principles that you're refering to apply to all religions?


But I think its a pretty wildly accepted view that the founders were Christian, and had christian influence. All men created equalThat may be widely accepted that they were christans, but it doesnt change the fact that only some of them were christians, some were not.


Settlers coming to the "New World" to escape religious persecution so they could worship their beliefs freely without the King and Church of England for example Mass. Bay colony. It was early settlement but still.I accept this



Debate on this would be totally different now and then. Some people might think based on "Christian principles" because the of the beliefs of the founders.Some of the founding fathers were christian, most were anti-clericals and deists, which were very different from orthodox christians and catholics.

[-EnVus-]

It all started with the ships that set off to sea in navigating the globe for new land and life in in 1400's. The ships were asked to be blessed by the church for a safe and pleasant voyage...English Christians in the 16th and 17th centuries who wished to separate from the Church of England and form independent local churches were influential politically under Oliver Cromwell, who was himself a separatist. They were eventually called Congregationalists.[13] The Pilgrims who established the first successful colony in New England were separatists.[14]
These colonist also Christian dwellers are the founder members to build the new Constitution of governed law as in or under Gods worship.
Many types of religions was abroad and were present in the movement but only Catholic and Christian believes prevailed.

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It all started with the ships that set off to sea in navigating the globe for new land and life in in 1400's. The ships were asked to be blessed by the church for a safe and pleasant voyage...So what about the people that were already living here before those ships got here?

[-EnVus-]

So what about the people that were already living here before those ships got here?
Easy answer seeing how I am of great decedent from these people you speak of....They worshiped a god of the sky as do may look up today for God.
Also remember...
There is no direct mention of God in the Constitution, except in the formation of the date used in the document: "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.

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Easy answer seeing how I am of great decedent from these people you speak of....They worshiped a god of the sky as do may look up today for God.
Also remember...
There is no direct mention of God in the Constitution, except in the formation of the date used in the document: "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.Thats the long, government-y way of writing A.D.1787

[Vteckidd]

Thats the long, government-y way of writing A.D.1787

this is why i try to stay out of most of your threads. Even in the face of direct evidence that the founders (or at least some of them) believed, you dismiss it because it doesnt fit your agenda.

The Founders escaped England and realized that in order to have a society they wished was better than where they came from, there had to be :
Equal Rights for all mankind
No monarch or King, a division of powers.
Certain unalienable rights, ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR


Also, The mention of GOD (Natures God) is in the declaration.

In the constitution they were wise not to put God in the body because they understood they wanted everyone to have freedom of religion, to choose to practice whatever they wanted , and yes in your case, practice nothing. That is everyones right. I think by putting GOD in the constitution they knew that would be interpreted as imposing religion on someone which they most certainly did not want to do.

Christianity has a certain set of philosophies and doctrines that the founders adhered to and used to frame their documents, just like im sure Arab countries look to the Koran, China to Buddhism, so on and so forth. Those philosophies arent specific TO christianity, but in this context the founders were christians, so that is why that distinction is made.

Good for you, they were smart, and didnt pass any laws or rules that limit you practicing your faith, or lack of. YOu are free to do as you choose, so long as you respect other peoples beliefs.

But its more and more apparent that is not what you want to do. you want to try and create this religion argument again that somehow you feel persecuted because you are an atheist. Or you want to make fun of others because they believe and you dont. Simply not true. YOure also in a dominantly christian nation, you are in the minority. Good thing for you the USA is tolerant of all people. If you did this stuff in say..............Iran or Iraq, you would have been beheaded by now.

[Vteckidd]

I simply do not agree with the christian view that gays shouldnt be allowed to marry. That is against my belief system. I also , dont agree with the gay lifestyle, but im not going to say that "god hates them" or that "god wants them to die" or any other crazy zany statements. I believe you love who you love, and if they want to get married, they should be able to.

But, i understand i am in a predominantly christian country that opposes gay marriage. So itll be some time before people with my thinking come to power.

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this is why i try to stay out of most of your threads. Even in the face of direct evidence that the founders (or at least some of them) believed, you dismiss it because it doesnt fit your agenda.LOL. It's not my agenda! That's what A.D. means! Lol. Look it up. Lol

[bu villain]

I would say this country was founded on Christian principles. I would also say it was founded just as much on the principles of Locke, Hobbs, and Smith. Saying this country was founded on Christian principles is only a problem if it is twisted to justify theocratic elements into our government (e.g., adding "under god" to the pledge).

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Saying this country was founded on Christian principles is only a problem if it is twisted to justify theocratic elements into our government (e.g., adding "under god" to the pledge).
The problem is that it inherently does. You could argue that the founding fathers may have referenced morals from religious texts, but it still doesn't mean morality is strictly biblical because it's not. Morality is innate. There is no specific "principle" that applies only to Christianity, that doesn't also apply to Islam, Buddhism, or simply being human. Furthermore, religious freedom, a principle which we can agree the country was founded on, is not really a principle of Christianity at all, in fact the bible is clearly against it.

[bu villain]

I don't think it inherently does, maybe you meant to say "inevitably". Saying certain christian principles influenced the founders doesn't mean that ONLY christian principles influenced them or that ALL christian principles influenced them. That is a logical disconnect. I agree that some people would like it to mean that but such people will not be stopped by semantics anyways so why argue about it?

[.blank cd]

I don't think it inherently does, maybe you meant to say "inevitably". iPhone typo. My mistake. Lol.
Saying certain christian principles influenced the founders doesn't mean that ONLY christian principles influenced them or that ALL christian principles influenced them. That is a logical disconnect. I agree that some people would like it to mean that but such people will not be stopped by semantics anyways so why argue about it?Cause I was bored. Lol

[bu villain]

Cause I was bored. Lol

Haha I feel you. I'm just saying arguing about whether or not the US was founded on "christian principles" is just a semantic argument when the real discussion should be about the role of religion in influencing policy. That is a worthwile argument to have. I prefer to bypass the catchphrases and talk about the core issues.

[alpine_aw11]

Haha I feel you. I'm just saying arguing about whether or not the US was founded on "christian principles" is just a semantic argument when the real discussion should be about the role of religion in influencing policy. That is a worthwile argument to have. I prefer to bypass the catchphrases and talk about the core issues.

This. What I believe the typical misunderstanding is, is that people misinterpret basic morality as "christian principles". The religion of the founding fathers is(to me) irrelevant, because the only thing we can be certain of is that religious influence isn't allowed in our government. Vote Santorum.

[ahabion]

Hrm... first to the OP, religious principles are like how Vtekkid pointed out: all men are created equal... inalienable rights, etc. Biblically speaking, this refers to how we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. I can expound more but will leave it at that for now.

As for the separation of church and state, it was not to keep the religion out of state affairs but to keep the state out of religious affairs. Religion is very much like race if you want to draw the analogy... A person is who they are and to say that a person can separate themselves from what it is they are, then that's impossible... (like asking a black person to remove their blackness while in public office... can't be done). Religion really is that personal to those who pursue it.

On the other hand, the separation of church and state was so that the state could not mandate a religion upon it's people, such as what the King of England tried to do to the colonies. (If I recall, the King was Catholic and the colonies were largely Protestant... but don't quote me on that)

In regards to the country being founded on christian principles, you need only look at those who wrote the Constitution to base your judgement.

[Bamboozler]

The simple term "christian principles" is a ridiculous notion. All matters referencing moral law can be branched accross all of the major religous groups. So to say in absolution that the U.S. was founded on "christian principles" is ignorant. You could say the same for any number of countries. It is a propaganda phrase to appeal to the ignorant people who assume that christianity is the "supreme and right" religion. If you keep your mind open you would see that most religion is based on the same moral code of conduct. This being said I would hope that; even though they were not as educated as most today; our founding fathers would have thought in advance about the possiblities of people of different religous background to there own would be in our country one day.

[Vteckidd]

The simple term "christian principles" is a ridiculous notion. All matters referencing moral law can be branched accross all of the major religous groups. So to say in absolution that the U.S. was founded on "christian principles" is ignorant. You could say the same for any number of countries. It is a propaganda phrase to appeal to the ignorant people who assume that christianity is the "supreme and right" religion. If you keep your mind open you would see that most religion is based on the same moral code of conduct. This being said I would hope that; even though they were not as educated as most today; our founding fathers would have thought in advance about the possiblities of people of different religous background to there own would be in our country one day.

It was the first religion to have that sort of founded doctrine. Before christianity you had pagans and romans/greeks.

Hence why it is credited first as having the "moral" foundations that most people attribute as christian in principle.

Thats not to say that christianity is the ONLY moral or correct religion, not at all. but it was the first pretty much.

[Nerdsrock22]

It was the first religion to have that sort of founded doctrine. Before christianity you had pagans and romans/greeks.

And Judaism.

And all of the Eastern religions.

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It was the first religion to have that sort of founded doctrine. Before christianity you had pagans and romans/greeks.

Thats not to say that christianity is the ONLY moral or correct religion, not at all. but it was the first pretty much.Yes, after Norse, celts, roman pagans, native pagans, and Mithraism, christianity was the first.

Had it not been for a violent Christian uprising in the 4th ish century, you would all be praying to Mithras.

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And Judaism.

And all of the Eastern religions.

Judaism and most Eastern religions are christian religions

[Vteckidd]

it was the first modern religion out of all the main ones. PERIOD

[Bamboozler]

What about the moral code written by the Egyptian Pharoh....which to my knowledge is very similar to the moral laws of christianity....that was carved in stone in the shape of a column "a few years" before established christianity.

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What does that even mean? Lol

That's like saying cars are the first modern mode of transportation out of all the main modes of transportation.

Christianity wasnt the first religion, nor was it the first religion thats still practiced today (what you mean by modern I guess). Even modern Protestantism is a relatively new concept historically.

It is the most widespread though. I'll give you that. Lol

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What about the moral code written by the Egyptian Pharoh....which to my knowledge is very similar to the moral laws of christianity....that was carved in stone in the shape of a column "a few years" before established christianity.

I wasn't even gonna mention Hammurabi since it was more or less laws, but even that predates christianity. In any (and every) case, morality is innate. One of the perks of being a human.

[Nerdsrock22]

Judaism and most Eastern religions are christian religions

Are you joking, cause I don't get it.

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Are you joking, cause I don't get it.

Not joking. It's all the same thing. Just different versions...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

[Nerdsrock22]

Not joking. It's all the same thing. Just different versions...


http://images1.fanpop.com/images/quiz/12215_1213577553669_434_308.jpg

I think I'm done here.

Anyone who says that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are the "same thing" in a conversation this detailed, while refusing to acknowledge the existence of Easter religions such as Buddhism, Shintoism, and Hinduism is either hilariously misinformed or here to troll.

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http://images1.fanpop.com/images/quiz/12215_1213577553669_434_308.jpg

I think I'm done here.

Anyone who says that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are the "same thing" in a conversation this detailed, while refusing to acknowledge the existence of Easter religions such as Buddhism, Shintoism, and Hinduism is either hilariously misinformed or here to troll.

Or in this case none of the above. Other posters didn't see the need to be as detailed. At least I was on base with my gross generalization. I didn't say "all eastern religions" in my post. And Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all abrahamic religion and all are connected in some way. I think I'm in the clear here.

[Nerdsrock22]

Or in this case none of the above. Other posters didn't see the need to be as detailed. At least I was on base with my gross generalization. I didn't say "all eastern religions" in my post. And Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all abrahamic religion and all are connected in some way. I think I'm in the clear here.

To say that the three Abrahamic religions are "all the same thing" is incorrect: in practice, in history, and in eschatology.

It's obvious what you wanted to happen here. You throw out bait asking for a Christian to back up the widespread assertion that America was founded on Christian principles, some Christmas/Easter Christian shows up and rants how this is a Christian nation and that we've strayed too far, and then you bust out about how these "Christian principles" are really just innate moralities that were put into practice long before the Ten Commandments were obtained, the Bible was written, or the Constitution was drafted. Everyone is supposed to be in awe of this previously unknown historical tidbit, and happily converts to atheism. Checkpoint for evangelical atheists and Richard Dawkins.

But American isn't and never was a Christian nation. It's all a myth. American was founded by religious dissidents (Massachusetts) and economical opportunists (Virginia). Our government was crafted by 18th century liberal Enlightened thinkers. Along with westward expansion (see Turner's thesis), that's America. That's all it is. Everything you are so passionate against (public prayer, the war against gays, etc.) isn't even Christianity, but rather a corrupted American civil religion reinforced by lazy Americans and opportunistic right wing politicians and talking heads.

If you want to know what Christian principles are, read the "Sermon on the Mount". That passage pretty much sums it up. Anything you see that doesn't mesh with that IS NOT CHRISTIAN. It's really not that complicated.

[Bamboozler]

I don't believe .blank cd's intent is to convert people to aethism. I believe he is playing "devil's advocate." He is forcing you and many others to view the question from a different angle than most are familiar with. His statement on the Abrahamic religions being similar is based in some fact but to say it in absolution would be an extremely false statement. I agree with your view on the founding of America for the most part but the fights you mention about public prayer and gay rights are all being waged by Christian extremeist who believe that their way of thinking is absolute. This is were the people from the other side of the spectrum step in and answer with the same level of crazy. Then everyone is labeled either Party A or Party B and it creates tension because the fact is most people are in the middle on these subjects.

[Nerdsrock22]

I don't believe .blank cd's intent is to convert people to aethism. I believe he is playing "devil's advocate." He is forcing you and many others to view the question from a different angle than most are familiar with. His statement on the Abrahamic religions being similar is based in some fact but to say it in absolution would be an extremely false statement. I agree with your view on the founding of America for the most part but the fights you mention about public prayer and gay rights are all being waged by Christian extremeist who believe that their way of thinking is absolute. This is were the people from the other side of the spectrum step in and answer with the same level of crazy. Then everyone is labeled either Party A or Party B and it creates tension because the fact is most people are in the middle on these subjects.

His intent, if I may, is to point out the fallacy of the Christian nation ethos that has plagued our country for the better part of a century. And I understand that atheists enjoy stirring up trouble and embarrassing Christians that don't spend their entire lives studying the intricacies of the theology of their own faith. These conquests delight them to no end. My issue, is that in a thread titled "Christian Principles", we're being made to assume that all Abrahamic religions are the same, and thus, share the same principles. Either we going to have a dialogue about faith (or lack of) or we're just going to throw shit around until someone gets offended or confused.

[.blank cd]

Now we're getting somewhere!

[RL...]

I dont see the relevance of the determination of which religious foundation this nation was founded. Either way we are here today and things are the way they are.

Talking about this topic doesn't really serve a purpose or get us anywhere. Then again neither does debating about religion so carry on....

[Sinfix_15]

Good for you, they were smart, and didnt pass any laws or rules that limit you practicing your faith, or lack of. YOu are free to do as you choose, so long as you respect other peoples beliefs.

But its more and more apparent that is not what you want to do. you want to try and create this religion argument again that somehow you feel persecuted because you are an atheist. Or you want to make fun of others because they believe and you dont. Simply not true. YOure also in a dominantly christian nation, you are in the minority. Good thing for you the USA is tolerant of all people. If you did this stuff in say..............Iran or Iraq, you would have been beheaded by now.

The hostility from nonreligious people comes from organized religion pretty much waging war against us. Religious based laws are not made for religious people, theyre made for me. If the Bible says "dont eat fruit on a tuesday", then a christian person should follow this law based on his belief and understand the consequences of defying his creator. Even though everyone else is eating fruit on a tuesday, that person can follow his beliefs and know that heaven will be their reward and hell will be the punishment for those who dont follow those rules. Why does our social structure need to reinforce laws made by God? Why does it need to be made illegal for me to eat fruit on a tuesday when i have no problem with it? Just because the fruit is there, the religious person doesnt have to eat it. The Bible has it's own laws and own punishments. There is no reason for our government to enforce anything religion based.

I just want it to be fair. On my way to work i will drive past approximately 25-30 churches who dont pay taxes, yet such a thing as a sin tax exists. It's perfectly normal and acceptable for people to hang up decorations of a man being mutilated, nailed to a wooden cross and executed on any public street or building but anything provocative is outlawed. People can walk around my neighborhood and pass out literature for their religion and can openly and freely tell anyone and everyone theyre going to burn in hell for an eternity. If i did the same and walked around local churches passing out nonreligious literature, i would probably be arrested.

If i can drive past the 239582935829358239058 churches in the united states and not be offended that they have mutilated bodies hanging from wooden crosses as decorations, it would be nice if they could return the favor and drive past the strip clubs, casinos and sex shops.

but they cant do that...... they go way out of their way to push their beliefs, even in places designated for nonchristians.

http://www.gigwise.com/news/52260/Marilyn-Manson-Concert-Besieged-By-Christian-Protesters

http://www.gamearena.com.au/res/2007/images/features/custom/singlefeatures/dante-s-inferno-protest.jpg