US Manufacturers Importing Workers

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Are you fucking kidding me? I guess the good ol' conservative rhetoric has finally come full circle. "You gotta get a degree and become an attorney or a business man or an entrepreneur or CEO. If you work in a factory or technically skilled in any way, you're a second class citizen."

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/smallbusiness/manufacturing-workers/

[Browning151]

I have long thought the push that everyone should attend college instead of learning skilled trades was a bad idea. This country was built on the backs of skilled labor, people who learned a skill and learned it well and they took pride in being able to do it. Now all we push for is that kids go to college so that they can get a six figure salary the "easy" way. I also really like what Mike Rowe had to say about this subject about a year ago:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NwEFVUb-u0

[Vteckidd]

Are you fucking kidding me? I guess the good ol' conservative rhetoric has finally come full circle. "You gotta get a degree and become an attorney or a business man or an entrepreneur or CEO. If you work in a factory or technically skilled in any way, you're a second class citizen."

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/smallbusiness/manufacturing-workers/

The democrats have just as much to share in the blame as their UNIONS overpriced labor and sent it out of this country. But with China emerging , we cannot compete with their labor force, its too cheap, and our citizens are willing to pay the lowest dollar for products.

GOP isnt to blame.

nice try though

[Vteckidd]

I have long thought the push that everyone should attend college instead of learning skilled trades was a bad idea. This country was built on the backs of skilled labor, people who learned a skill and learned it well and they took pride in being able to do it. Now all we push for is that kids go to college so that they can get a six figure salary the "easy" way. I also really like what Mike Rowe had to say about this subject about a year ago:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NwEFVUb-u0

Hes right, the problem is we lie to kids and tell them to get a college degree and then everything will be ok. Thats simply not true.

Read this :

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/

[Browning151]

Hes right, the problem is we lie to kids and tell them to get a college degree and then everything will be ok. Thats simply not true.

Read this :

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/

Excellent read, and spot on.

[WhiteAccord]

Hes right, the problem is we lie to kids and tell them to get a college degree and then everything will be ok. Thats simply not true.

Read this :

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/

Eventually a 4 year BS will not mean a single thing.

Everyone is obtaining one, just like the dollar, print more paper and the value of that paper goes down. Print more degrees and the degree will eventually lose its credit.

Our government is creating now the " College Bubble". Just like the "real estate bubble" we had..... Loans were cheap and eventually the bubble just blew due to inflation. Eventually the college individuals (Our generation) will continue to be in debt to out government.

Once again another lie does the trick to mislead the U.S. citizens.

[blaknoize]

The democrats have just as much to share in the blame as their UNIONS overpriced labor and sent it out of this country. But with China emerging , we cannot compete with their labor force, its too cheap, and our citizens are willing to pay the lowest dollar for products.

GOP isnt to blame.

nice try though

But didn't we all have a lil argument over the fact that American's now think that laborers shouldn't get respect and be paid well because they could of worked for Goldman Sachs or any other officer related employer? Isn't the reason why pay was so high and why unions developed was due to people wanting to live well for their hard work and importantance of their job and to avoid being underpaid and some security? The cost of their labor may have been high, but their work was also quality. Steel mill workers, pipe fitters, home builders and the like made very good money and very good products.

We sold ourselves out because the share-holders of those companies suddenly found a way to make more for themselves and that is obvious truth. Since everyone wants more $$ and cares less about a quality made product.

But we all know, I'm considered the communist for believing all people should be able to live well and enjoy themselves.

[BanginJimmy]

But didn't we all have a lil argument over the fact that American's now think that laborers shouldn't get respect and be paid well because they could of worked for Goldman Sachs or any other officer related employer? Isn't the reason why pay was so high and why unions developed was due to people wanting to live well for their hard work and importantance of their job and to avoid being underpaid and some security? The cost of their labor may have been high, but their work was also quality. Steel mill workers, pipe fitters, home builders and the like made very good money and very good products.

Exactly. You miss the point though. Those jobs never went away and they are still good paying jobs, even at non-union employers. The problem is no one wants to put in the time to actually acquire the skill. These are typically pretty low paying jobs until you prove your skill. I dont know how much machining experience you have, but it takes decades to really learn that skill and be able to apply it to non-standard applications. The same is true of a pipefitter, it is even more true of a CNC machine programmer. The initial programming of those is highly complex, especially when you are looking at 3 axis machines. Not only do you need the mechanical skills involved with reading the blueprints and visualizing the best pattern to machine, you need to computer skills to make the machine understand you.





But we all know, I'm considered the communist for believing all people should be able to live well and enjoy themselves.

You are considered a communist because you think I should be forced to work harder to continue my standard of living so the govt can give a higher percentage of the money I worked for and earned to someone who decided that being cool is more important than being self reliant.

[blaknoize]

Exactly. You miss the point though. Those jobs never went away and they are still good paying jobs, even at non-union employers. The problem is no one wants to put in the time to actually acquire the skill. These are typically pretty low paying jobs until you prove your skill. I dont know how much machining experience you have, but it takes decades to really learn that skill and be able to apply it to non-standard applications. The same is true of a pipefitter, it is even more true of a CNC machine programmer. The initial programming of those is highly complex, especially when you are looking at 3 axis machines. Not only do you need the mechanical skills involved with reading the blueprints and visualizing the best pattern to machine, you need to computer skills to make the machine understand you.

Which is the point. The pay may be "lower" but making $9-$11 an hr to be a pipefitter is being totally underpaid. Contractor or not at a company like that, $16 an hr would seem like a good starting salary for such dangerous taxing work.








You are considered a communist because you think I should be forced to work harder to continue my standard of living so the govt can give a higher percentage of the money I worked for and earned to someone who decided that being cool is more important than being self reliant.

This isnt the thread for this, but to say someone who is actually working hard for their money shouldn't be allowed to live a reasonable lifestyle is ridiculous in my eyes. Since it isn't anything but money, which we make up and control and print ourselves add a value too and class others for having less of it. We don't dig money up from the planet. I wish I could devalue your dollar and roll around in my own money and tell you that since u dont have THIS money, you're worthless (no matter your job or importance of that job) because I have more of this money.

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You're not a communist because you're not a communist. The conservatives round here tend to throw this buzzword around even though they don't really know what it means.

[RL...]

lol Everyone is not getting a degree. Most people who attend college drop out, which is why less than half of U.S. citizens hold a bachelor degree or higher. And going to school to get a degree that pays 6 figures(typically med school) is the farthest thing from what can be called easy.

[TIGERJC]

I think degrees are optional and not really needed for 90% of the jobs out there. Employers have shifted the cost of education to the employee instead of investing in training that employee. Then companies want to complain when those college graduates expect good pay right out of college. They have to ask for a large salary just to cover the interest on their 50k+ in school loans. I rather see the government reduce Pell and all those other BS college grants (Educational welfare) and instead give incentives (Tax Breaks,grants and etc) to companies that offer entry level positions to High School graduates. This will create company loyalty, which is unheard of for people between the ages of 20-30. This is also great for the company as it reduces turnover, which brings down training cost. With the Baby Boomers retiring and companies offering retiring packages in order to reduce their health care and higher salary cost of their older workers, there will be plenty of jobs available in this country in the next 5-10 years. I am working on my 4 year degree, but I really do not need it to become a project manager, planner or engineer for the company I work for. A degree just means a bump in pay because of a college degree (Maybe 5k more a year)


I laugh when people constantly bash unions. Unions are not needed or even sought after if the employees are treated fairly. However the Unions of today just like most industries and people in this country will do anything for a dollar (corruption). This is why I am wary of the big unions, but I still believe workers have the right to unionize.

[RL...]

Of course degrees are optional....duh. They are not needed for most jobs, because "most jobs" are what can be classified as menial jobs-jobs which require no special skill or training or level of education needed. There are way more cashiers than there are doctors.

The pell grant is not bs in any way, but it does need to be reformed It needs to be applicable towards a broader income bracket and should make students maintain a certain gpa level.

What I would really like is for the federal government to cancel all these programs and tax me less. So much of our taxes goes to medicaid medicare social security....those are a HUGE chunk in the budget.

[TIGERJC]

Of course degrees are optional....duh. They are not needed for most jobs, because "most jobs" are what can be classified as menial jobs-jobs which require no special skill or training or level of education needed. There are way more cashiers than there are doctors.

The pell grant is not bs in any way, but it does need to be reformed It needs to be applicable towards a broader income bracket and should make students maintain a certain gpa level.

What I would really like is for the federal government to cancel all these programs and tax me less. So much of our taxes goes to medicaid medicare social security....those are a HUGE chunk in the budget.
Government grants are the reason why college is so expensive. Business know when government gets involved, thats when you charge more because government does not look at the price and never runs out of money. You're contradicting yourself when you want a government program to cover more people, but then you want lower taxes. It doesn't work like that, never mind that why we as a country are so deep in debt thanks to that mindset.

[Browning151]

Government grants are the reason why college is so expensive. Business know when government gets involved, thats when you charge more because government does not look at the price and never runs out of money.

.......and guess what's going to happen to healthcare.......

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Government grants are the reason why college is so expensive. Business know when government gets involved, thats when you charge more because government does not look at the price and never runs out of money.So, knowing this (and this goes for healthcare and a lot of other things too), who do you criticize? The government for trying to offer assistance, or the business trying to exploit the system?

You want to stop the govt from assisting people going to college because the businesses are exploiting the system? Does that make much sense?

If I was giving out lemonade to all the kids in the neighborhood and an adult came and took all of it, does it make much sense to tell ME to stop giving out lemonade, or would it make more sense to tell the adult to not take advantage of my generosity?

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I rather see the government reduce Pell and all those other BS college grants (Educational welfare) and instead give incentives (Tax Breaks,grants and etc) to companies that offer entry level positions to High School graduates.Seriously? You want to give more money to companies to do something they already should be doing in the first place?

[BanginJimmy]

Seriously? You want to give more money to companies to do something they already should be doing in the first place?


Why SHOULD a company give a HS grad an entry level job when they can get a better educated, more mature, more well rounded college grad for the same salary?

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Why SHOULD a company give a HS grad an entry level job when they can get a better educated, more mature, more well rounded college grad for the same salary?

Who says the college grad is always more well rounded, or mature or smarter for that matter?

A lot of college kids suffer from what I like to call "shiny ass degree syndrome", or SADS. Which is someone who thinks they're the shit, no longer capable of learning and adapting because they have a shiny ass degree.

[BanginJimmy]

Who says the college grad is always more well rounded, or mature or smarter for that matter?

A lot of college kids suffer from what I like to call "shiny ass degree syndrome", or SADS. Which is someone who thinks they're the shit, no longer capable of learning and adapting because they have a shiny ass degree.

Obviously I am speaking in general terms and not specifics.

Aa to SADS they are taught that in those colleges. Why do you think so many college kids are the ones protesting everything?

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[RL...]

Who says the college grad is always more well rounded, or mature or smarter for that matter?

A lot of college kids suffer from what I like to call "shiny ass degree syndrome", or SADS. Which is someone who thinks they're the shit, no longer capable of learning and adapting because they have a shiny ass degree.

I am in school and that is not the mentality of a most students. BUT, people with degrees are definitely more versatile in the work force than a person without one, it's not about intelligence, guys. Anyone of us has the potential to be a doctor. The thing is do we have the motivation, the tirelessness to not give up, the ability to sacrifice partying for spending saturday nights studying for a better future....it comes down to commitment. That's what a degree is, a commitment that once you earn, puts yourself above others in the work force because you CHOSE to go through more shit than most people. And getting a Bachelors is relatively easy, but getting a masters and such is much harder, more time intensive, and way more expensive.

If I go to school for the first 28 years of my life to get a good job and bust my ass studying while everyone else was partying but only makes 10 bucks an hour, I don't see anything wrong with thinking of myself as successful and hard working and smart.

What I see a lot more is, people who have shitty cars, crappy jobs, no savings, thinking they are the shit. Laugh my ass off.

[BanginJimmy]

Anyone of us has the potential to be a doctor.

You couldnt be more wrong. There are a lot of very stupid people running around.

[RL...]

You couldnt be more wrong. There are a lot of very stupid people running around.

I want to argue that....but I cant because its true.

[TIGERJC]

So, knowing this (and this goes for healthcare and a lot of other things too), who do you criticize? The government for trying to offer assistance, or the business trying to exploit the system?

You want to stop the govt from assisting people going to college because the businesses are exploiting the system? Does that make much sense?

If I was giving out lemonade to all the kids in the neighborhood and an adult came and took all of it, does it make much sense to tell ME to stop giving out lemonade, or would it make more sense to tell the adult to not take advantage of my generosity?
Ever since the government decided that everyone needs to go to college and started pouring in federal dollars to colleges, it has only driven tuition prices up while also devaluing the worth of a degree. Either two things need to happen, if colleges are going to accept federal dollars, then they should be subjected to federal control since they can not operate on their own. Since I know few colleges would accept a federal takeover, this would lead to colleges either lowering their price on tuition since they no longer can count on a large portion of that tuition to be covered by federal dollars and would have to price according to the market (what people are willing to pay). Colleges are the best examples of Corporate Welfare. Colleges are billion dollar businesses, they still have their hand out asking for federal dollars while screwing over the people. Most college labs are funded by the government, and when they make a break through and either sell their formula or make about business out of it, the profits find its way to the top people of the school. instead back to the tax payers. That is fucked up that they are using tax payers money to make billions of dollars.

Also that analogy is horrible, and sounds like you like free shit. I am a democrat, but I do not believe that its the government responsibility to provide everything in your life. You can not compare healthcare and this, as they're completely different. I do not believe in a single payer healthcare system, but everyone needs health care. The minimum level of healthcare should be provided to the poor, this will keep the poor out of emergency rooms and hospital will not have to recoup that money by hiking the prices up for anyone that does have insurance to cover those folks that used hospital resources for free. Because everyone needs health care, it should be regulated to control cost the same way we regulate the wireless industry. There needs to be competition and it hasn't been there in the healthcare system, that is the only way prices for all Americans will go down. Can't really blame businesses, because their end game is to make money and they don't make as much when they're having to compete for business. Another benefit of this competition, is that companies would have lower healthcare cost, which would lead to more workers and or investments.

[BanginJimmy]

Ever since the government decided that everyone needs to go to college and started pouring in federal dollars to colleges, it has only driven tuition prices up while also devaluing the worth of a degree. Either two things need to happen, if colleges are going to accept federal dollars, then they should be subjected to federal control since they can not operate on their own. Since I know few colleges would accept a federal takeover, this would lead to colleges either lowering their price on tuition since they no longer can count on a large portion of that tuition to be covered by federal dollars and would have to price according to the market (what people are willing to pay). Colleges are the best examples of Corporate Welfare. Colleges are billion dollar businesses, they still have their hand out asking for federal dollars while screwing over the people. Most college labs are funded by the government, and when they make a break through and either sell their formula or make about business out of it, the profits find its way to the top people of the school. instead back to the tax payers. That is fucked up that they are using tax payers money to make billions of dollars.

Also that analogy is horrible, and sounds like you like free shit. I am a democrat, but I do not believe that its the government responsibility to provide everything in your life. You can not compare healthcare and this, as they're completely different. I do not believe in a single payer healthcare system, but everyone needs health care. The minimum level of healthcare should be provided to the poor, this will keep the poor out of emergency rooms and hospital will not have to recoup that money by hiking the prices up for anyone that does have insurance to cover those folks that used hospital resources for free. Because everyone needs health care, it should be regulated to control cost the same way we regulate the wireless industry. There needs to be competition and it hasn't been there in the healthcare system, that is the only way prices for all Americans will go down. Can't really blame businesses, because their end game is to make money and they don't make as much when they're having to compete for business. Another benefit of this competition, is that companies would have lower healthcare cost, which would lead to more workers and or investments.

I agree completely with your assessment of why healthcare ia so expensive. The problem is that when the govt is paying for the worthless poor, any direct healthcare savings are swallowed up by extra taxes to pay for the healthcare.

You hit the nail on the head with the lack of competition also. The single most effective way to introduce more competition would be to allow insurance to be sold across state lines. I would also like to see a la carte plans where you can choose what coverages you want, much like is done with car insurance.

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[TIGERJC]

I agree completely with your assessment of why healthcare ia so expensive. The problem is that when the govt is paying for the worthless poor, any direct healthcare savings are swallowed up by extra taxes to pay for the healthcare.

You hit the nail on the head with the lack of competition also. The single most effective way to introduce more competition would be to allow insurance to be sold across state lines. I would also like to see a la carte plans where you can choose what coverages you want, much like is done with car insurance.

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Either we need to accept allowing the poor to die in the streest by refusing medical treatment or there needs to be some program that is available to them. Just no more grey area.

I do believe we can reform welfare, food stamps and other public assistance by putting limits on how long someone can be on the government's tit and we can come up with the money to help pay for their healthcare program.

[BanginJimmy]

Either we need to accept allowing the poor to die in the streest by refusing medical treatment or there needs to be some program that is available to them. Just no more grey area.

I do believe we can reform welfare, food stamps and other public assistance by putting limits on how long someone can be on the government's tit and we can come up with the money to help pay for their healthcare program.

If people know their welfare is going to run out after a certain time they will be much more inclined to learn the skills needed to support themselves.

As it is now, welfare is unlimited and benefits are growing. Mother, with a min wage job, and 3 kids on various welfare programs has more monthly disposable income than that same family making 60k a year. There is a serious problem with that scenario.

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[TIGERJC]

If people know their welfare is going to run out after a certain time they will be much more inclined to learn the skills needed to support themselves.

As it is now, welfare is unlimited and benefits are growing. Mother, with a min wage job, and 3 kids on various welfare programs has more monthly disposable income than that same family making 60k a year. There is a serious problem with that scenario.

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I agree, still can't believe I would ever say I agree with you. 2-4 years limit, 4 years is enough time to better yourself. After 4 years you're on your own, sink or swim. What is amazing about most people, is that when times get tough their survival instincts kick in and people who haven't worked a day in their life will soon take any job to put food in their mouth.

[BanginJimmy]

I agree, still can't believe I would ever say I agree with you. 2-4 years limit, 4 years is enough time to better yourself. After 4 years you're on your own, sink or swim. What is amazing about most people, is that when times get tough their survival instincts kick in and people who haven't worked a day in their life will soon take any job to put food in their mouth.

I want to say it was Norway that did like 5 years of unemployment. They found that a lot of people were finding jobs right as the unemployment ended. They shortened the length of unemployment and again people managed to find jobs right as the checks stopped coming.

It really is simple. If you reward a behavior, that behavior will be copied.

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[Browning151]

I agree, still can't believe I would ever say I agree with you. 2-4 years limit, 4 years is enough time to better yourself. After 4 years you're on your own, sink or swim. What is amazing about most people, is that when times get tough their survival instincts kick in and people who haven't worked a day in their life will soon take any job to put food in their mouth.

It's sometimes shocking when you get down to the base of some issues that those on the right and left don't actually differ all that much isn't it? The question isn't should we help those at the bottom, we can all agree that sometimes people need help. But where that help stops and people must depend on themselves I think is where the differences begin to come in. That old adage "teach a man to fish" always comes to mind for me. Continually providing for someone does nothing more than make them dependent, teaching someone to provide for themselves turns them into a productive person. I've got no problem with helping people, but there needs to be limits and requirements to receiving those benefits. Should we require those on public assistance to be enrolled in job training programs or something to that effect? Should we place a definite time limit on those benefits? Those are areas I think the left a right differ. I saw this clip earlier, and it sort of shocked me to hear someone from the left say that the "welfare society" that the left has been largely responsible for is beginning to cost them, it's a little long but interesting nonetheless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J_9J5cJwkLU