An interesting article I read....

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Take a few minutes and give this a read. Think about it, and give me a reply. Basically what you think about what you've read, like a summary of sorts. It may not seem like this belongs here, but after I get some responses, I will explain more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

[thesammy]

I just read the intro and origin.

I sleep with an electric fan on EVERY night, along with my ceiling fan. Doesn't matter if it's 20 degrees outside. Lol. So far, I'm alive. Haven't had any problems that I'm aware of.
Sounds kinda bogus. It very well could have been the govt. trying to cut down on electricity used.

[geoff]

I would imagine you are going to try to use this as a reference to portray religion as a form of mind/population control. I see the point you are trying to make....a very small point. Except you leave out one thing, common sense. The south korean govt tells the people they will die if they leave the fan on( they are using this so as to save money on electricity)....yet one would soon figure out that when know one died when it was accidently left on....that it was bogus. You are trying to say that religion ( mainly christianity i presume) is the same. Yet this religion has been around for around 6k years or more, people have died for this belief ( high officials too) and despite the many many many attempts to put it to an end...it still survives. why?

[thesammy]

I hadn't been on IA in like two years, but if there is one person I remember, it's Geoff. Lol. Still at it, and that's a good thing.

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I would imagine you are going to try to use this as a reference to portray religion as a form of mind/population control. I see the point you are trying to make....a very small point. Except you leave out one thing, common sense. The south korean govt tells the people they will die if they leave the fan on( they are using this so as to save money on electricity)....yet one would soon figure out that when know one died when it was accidently left on....that it was bogus. You are trying to say that religion ( mainly christianity i presume) is the same. Yet this religion has been around for around 6k years or more, people have died for this belief ( high officials too) and despite the many many many attempts to put it to an end...it still survives. why?

Abrahamic religion has only been around for about 3000 years. Christianity is a little more than 1000 years old. Conversely, 1000 years from now, people may (or may not) believe in fan death because the belief will be propagated in the same manner. Like religion, it is passed down from generation to generation. And like religion, it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

[Vteckidd]

. And like religion, it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

one inherent flaw in your hypothesis is that the fan death can be proven not to kill people, you cannot prove Jesus was not the son of God or that he died for someones sins, or that the bible isnt true.

Let me preface this with the statement that im pretty much against organized religion because i think its just a money making scheme. Very few churches really exist for your benefit. And i also dont agree with people who think their religion is right and try to press their beliefs on others.

Now, having said that, religion is based on FAITH, faith is something you believe in despite really having any factual data to support your belief. Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God, since none of us can actually physically ask God (according to their religion) we must take this on faith.

YOu, an atheist , believe there is no such thing as god, that is your right. YOu believe there is no proof he exists, while others believe he does. The fact is neither one of you can prove the other person wrong.

My problem with religion is how it seems to infect peoples motives for governing. I think religion should be left to your local church, parish, witches circle, whatever. It should really be left out of politics.

[Vteckidd]

It really comes down to 1 simple statement:

You cannot prove god DOESNT exists, and they cannot prove that god DOES exist.

So each of you believes what they want to believe, based on FAITH.

Science really has nothing to do with it.

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one inherent flaw in your hypothesis is that the fan death can be proven not to kill people, you cannot prove Jesus was not the son of God or that he died for someones sins, or that the bible isnt true.Science has proven that immaculate conception and virgin birth in humans is impossible. The catholic church has concurred. So if Jesus existed, he was the son of a man.

[Vteckidd]

Science has proven that immaculate conception and virgin birth in humans is impossible. The catholic church has concurred. So if Jesus existed, he was the son of a man.

i think you are mixing immaculate conception with jesus birth.

The catholic church (im not catholic so i may be wrong) as i understand it has a set of doctrines or dogma put forth by the Popes over the years and one of them said Mary was the immaculate conception born free of sin and full of grace. That has to do with MARYs BIRTH, not jesus. IIRC but feel free to correct me.


In the Gospel of Luke, Mary learns from the angel Gabriel that she will conceive and bear a child called Jesus. When she asks how this can be, since she is a virgin, he tells her that the Holy Spirit would "come upon her" and that "nothing will be impossible with God". She responds: "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word".[26] Later Mary visits her relative Elizabeth, who is pregnant with John the Baptist. John leaps in his mother's womb, recognizing the presence of Jesus, the Messiah.

However, you know just because the catholic church says something again, doesnt mean anything. Not everyone is catholic. Not everyone is christian.

Science has nothing to do with it. Science can probably prove that a bush cant spontaneously combust or that a man cant simply "part a sea" , but people wrote about it and people believe it. Some dont.

Its your choice whether to believe it or not.

Trying to proclaim your religion as the correct one (atheism) is no better than the people you are preaching against. Youre doing the exact thing you hate about other religions.

Is it possible mary was knocked up by some random guy and Jesus was a nobody who was just really good at convincing people to follow him. Sure.

Is it possible that Jesus was the son of god and Mary was visited by the holy spirit and did some amazing miracles (healing the blind, feeding the famished) , sure.

cant prove either one, we werent there.

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Trying to proclaim your religion as the correct one (atheism) is no better than the people you are preaching against. Youre doing the exact thing you hate about other religions.Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is as much a religion as NOT modifying cars is a hobby. Lol

Christianity is made up of Catholicism, eastern orthodoxy, and protestantism.

[Vteckidd]

Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is as much a religion as NOT modifying cars is a hobby. Lol

Christianity is made up of Catholicism, eastern orthodoxy, and protestantism.

i grew up protestant, we never knelt to pray :P

My point is there are varying degrees and sections of christianity.

IMO, Atheism is a form of a religion. You all identify with the same common belief, that God doesnt exist.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1]

Just cause youre atheist doesnt mean you dont believe in a moral code, but i kinda equate to all those east atlanta hipster doosh bags. Every east atlanta guy with skinny jeans, covered in tattoos, a beard, and a flannel shirt is trying to desperately be so different, then they take a picture at Graveyard tavern and they all look EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME.

Atheists think they are being different, but instead of just believing what THEY WANT TO BELIEVE, they try to tell other people THEY are right, and others are wrong. Which is laughable, because thats exactly what they are trying to complain about

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IMO, Atheism is a form of a religion. You all identify with the same common belief, that God doesnt exist.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1]
You didn't read all of that definition. The key part being "that establishes symbols". A lack of a belief is not a belief in itself.

[Vteckidd]

point is its a section of people who believe in a common notion and atheists have identified themselves with symbols (such as the darwin fish, several others).

IMO the anti god sentiment is a belief in itself, as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.

Belief system=religion.

You wont convince me otherwise, sorry

[quickdodge®]

as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.


In a way, I'm actually the opposite of your theory. Christians cannot prove that He DOES exist so I have doubts. I don't doubt it because I can't prove He does. I doubt because they can't prove it. I don't need to prove to myself. If someone believes so much in something's existence, then it's up to them to prove it to me. Let me compare it with the theme of this web forum. Mike, you tell me your CRX makes 237hp. I don't believe you. It's not going to be up to me to prove that your car does what you say it does. You claim it, so you back it up.

I'm no atheist, by the way. Later, QD.

[Vteckidd]

In a way, I'm actually the opposite of your theory. Christians cannot prove that He DOES exist so I have doubts. I don't doubt it because I can't prove He does. I doubt because they can't prove it. I don't need to prove to myself. If someone believes so much in something's existence, then it's up to them to prove it to me. Let me compare it with the theme of this web forum. Mike, you tell me your CRX makes 237hp. I don't believe you. It's not going to be up to me to prove that your car does what you say it does. You claim it, so you back it up.

I'm no atheist, by the way. Later, QD.

I understand what you are saying, you are placing the burden of proof on the christians or whatever to prove to the "non believers" that some deity exists. I would totally agree with you if the people who believe are forcing their will on the atheists.

But our country has freedom of religion, people can worship mickey mouse if they want to. IF a section of people want to believe in jesus, then they should be allowed to. If atheists dont believe in jesus or god, that is their right.

the deity believers shouldnt be enforcing their faith on the atheists anymore than the atheists trying to enforce their beliefs on the christians.

and we are also a majority rules society. majority believe in God, so one who lives here, should be respectful for the countries origins and belief system. IF i lived in Saudi Arabia i wouldnt be suing their govt because they praise Allah.

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point is its a section of people who believe in a common notion and atheists have identified themselves with symbols (such as the darwin fish, several others).

IMO the anti god sentiment is a belief in itself, as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.The thing is, atheists don't have symbols. Not one. The Darwin fish isn't a symbol of atheism. Jesus, god, and the bible are all symbols of Christianity.

You're still confusing "lack of belief" with "belief of a negative", a logical fallacy. Another logical fallacy is proving something doesn't exist. We call that argumentum ad ignorantiam. Believers make the extraordinary claim that god exists, so the burden of proof will always be on those that believe.

[Vteckidd]

you can use big words and quote theories as fact but it still comes down to the basic principle.

No one is forcing you to believe anything. dont believe in god? ok, doesnt bother me 1 bit. Overly believe in god like Tebow? sure, go for it.

As long as your belief system doesnt intrude upon my life in a negative way, who cares?

This is why i support gay marriage. the religious right try to make it a religious issue saying God believes marriage is a man and a woman blah blah blah. IMO you cannot bring into religious beliefs in such an argument, because what one person belief system is not the same as another (obviously).

So if god decreed to me tomorrow that Cats are the chosen people should we start worshipping cats?

My problem is the Christian and religious groups who try to govern citing their religious beliefs as fact (When ive said its not fact its FAITH) and likewise the Atheists making it their mission to prove the christians wrong and doing other stupid things like suing over 9/11 memorial having a cross is just down right insanity.

[Vteckidd]

Furthermore the Atheists have national organizations who seek out reasons to sue people (i can cite hundreds of examples) , so to have an ORGANIZATION means you have some form of coherent belief system, in this case that all religion is false (which is its own form of religion ironically).

Lastly, Atheists regardless if they think they are right or not , need to realize they are in a society that overwhelming believes in God in some form or another. Atheists shouldnt be given special treatment and, while they ahve the right NOT to believe in god, shouldnt be actively trying to remove that right from other people. They should realize that in reality, unless someone is trying to cause harm to their person directly or govern over them, they should just really shut up. If i see a mosque, i dont get all bent out of shape cause OMG THEY DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS, IM SO OFFENDED. I just go "cool, good for them, they should believe in what they want". Atheists tend to play the "think like me or perish"

If they tried half this stuff in another non christian country, they would be shot,hung, killed, beheaded. Go to Iran and tell them "your god is false and you arent respecting my beliefs you should remove ALLAH from your building".

You dont HAVE to be christian, or muslim, or jewish, but you should respect others right to practice as well, especially when you are in the VAST minority

I really dont care if you agree with me or not, its my opinion.

[quickdodge®]

I understand what you are saying, you are placing the burden of proof on the christians or whatever to prove to the "non believers" that some deity exists. I would totally agree with you if the people who believe are forcing their will on the atheists.

I'm with you, Mike. I'm talking about those same people or anyone that wants me to become a believer. Not just in general. But I also can include that if I wanted to start going to church to learn more, I would expect them to show me what they have to show God is real. Later, QD.

[bu villain]

IMO the anti god sentiment is a belief in itself, as i have said that they cannot PROVE he doesnt exist, so they BELIEVE he doesnt exist.

Belief system=religion.

You wont convince me otherwise, sorry

Are you saying that not believing in something constitutes a religion? If I don't believe in leprachauns, does that make me religious? How about minotaurs? Why is not believing in God a religion when we never refer to not believing in anything else as such?

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Furthermore the Atheists have national organizations who seek out reasons to sue people (i can cite hundreds of examples) , so to have an ORGANIZATION means you have some form of coherent belief system, in this case that all religion is false (which is its own form of religion ironically).I'll wait for you to name ONE organization who's primary function is to sue believers for believing in god. You won't find one, but I'll wait patiently while you think of something.

My guess is you're going to name the ACLU and FFRF, since those are the more prominent secular organizations. So we'll go ahead and eliminate those off the top since neither of those organizations are either pro-atheist or pro-litigious.

And you still don't understand atheism. It's not a belief system. Lol. Go look it up in the same place you looked up the definition of religion earlier. Look at the word atheism. "Theism"- belief in a deity or creator. The prefix "a" denotes the lack of something.

Or is there a confirmation bias? Hmm.....

Lastly, Atheists regardless if they think they are right or not , need to realize they are in a society that overwhelming believes in God in some form or another. Atheists shouldnt be given special treatment and, while they ahve the right NOT to believe in god, shouldnt be actively trying to remove that right from other people. They should realize that in reality, unless someone is trying to cause harm to their person directly or govern over them, they should just really shut up. If i see a mosque, i dont get all bent out of shape cause OMG THEY DONT BELIEVE IN JESUS, IM SO OFFENDED. I just go "cool, good for them, they should believe in what they want". Atheists tend to play the "think like me or perish"And thus, the point of the article has come full circle. The belief that because an entire nation overwhelmingly believes in one thing that they are correct

[geoff]

Abrahamic religion has only been around for about 3000 years. Christianity is a little more than 1000 years old.:thinking::no:
Judaism and Christianity go hand in hand my friend. Christianity is a continuance of Judaism. And the statements you made in this quote show that when it comes to Christianity or any Abrahamic religion, you are ignorant...not to say stupid...just have no knowledge of it. The birth of Christ was recorded more than 2000 years ago......I would dare to say that you probably do not even know why you are an atheist. Did you get wronged by a "church" or did you just decide it makes no sense to you. Believe me when I say that MANY men smarter than you and I have believed and lived their life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your famed Charles Darwin was himself a believer in God.

The " Catholic Church" as I see it personally is not a true established church of God. It was taken over by the Romans who tried to kill off the teachings and believers of Jesus. You want to talk about population control, ok i can see your point when referring to this church. The crusades, witch hunts, ect....all done and approved by the " Catholic Church". It is the most corrupt organization in the world, more so than any government and they make Enron look like a kindergarten playground fight. The word "catholic" is nowhere to be found in any scriptures, they practice idolitry which is clearly forbidden in scripture ( praying to saints, mary, ect...). The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not the image of the Body of Christ. Sorry it just isn't.

The point you are trying to make with this article has failed, it takes no more than for one to test it to see its a fable. Like I said before, many intelligent men/woman have believed.

[quickdodge®]

The point you are trying to make with this article has failed...

To be honest, when I first read this, I had no idea it was about religion. Still don't see any correlation. Later, QD.

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:thinking::no:
Judaism and Christianity go hand in hand my friend. Christianity is a continuance of Judaism. And the statements you made in this quote show that when it comes to Christianity or any Abrahamic religion, you are ignorant...not to say stupid...just have no knowledge of it. The birth of Christ was recorded more than 2000 years ago......I would dare to say that you probably do not even know why you are an atheist. Did you get wronged by a "church" or did you just decide it makes no sense to you. Believe me when I say that MANY men smarter than you and I have believed and lived their life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your famed Charles Darwin was himself a believer in God.

The " Catholic Church" as I see it personally is not a true established church of God. It was taken over by the Romans who tried to kill off the teachings and believers of Jesus. You want to talk about population control, ok i can see your point when referring to this church. The crusades, witch hunts, ect....all done and approved by the " Catholic Church". It is the most corrupt organization in the world, more so than any government and they make Enron look like a kindergarten playground fight. The word "catholic" is nowhere to be found in any scriptures, they practice idolitry which is clearly forbidden in scripture ( praying to saints, mary, ect...). The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not the image of the Body of Christ. Sorry it just isn't.

The point you are trying to make with this article has failed, it takes no more than for one to test it to see its a fable. Like I said before, many intelligent men/woman have believed.

I think you should do a little bit more reading about religion and start questioning your faith some more. I used to be where you were, I was once a devout Christian. It was god or nothing, but I started questioning what others were preaching. Then science came along. Then I read the bible. Cover to cover. That's about the time I really started questioning things and looking at things with a now open mind. I know exactly why I'm an atheist. If you want to make the argument that more intelligent people believed in god, there are other intelligent scholars who were atheists.

Religion, the bible, and the god of the bible is also a fable. The test is science, and it fails miserably. They are constructs of men to cope with the things they didn't know about and were unable to discover in the bronze age. Read the bible, all the answers are there

[Vteckidd]

Your reasoning about science is flawed because you have no way of testing anything the Bible talks about.

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Huh? Everyone knows the bible is written by man.

Flawed scientific reasoning is one hell of an oxymoron.

[95420A]

So what I take from this is that regardless of what anyone says to you you're gonna stick by your beliefs which is admirable. But as I see it nobody is trying to convert you, it only seems to be going the other way. Why are you so intent on making others "see the light"? We should all just agree to keep personal beliefs exactly that, personal.

This being said there are actually churches of atheism so indeed it can be classified as a religion just one with a different set of views.

Some also argue that you are not indeed atheist but agnostic since you choose not to believe and base it on the principle that it cannot be proved that god does exist.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[95420A]

And the organization American Atheists has and continues to sue for such trivial things as cross shaped beams in the 9/11 museum.

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[Vteckidd]

Huh? Everyone knows the bible is written by man.

Flawed scientific reasoning is one hell of an oxymoron.

your position is that science can prove things that happened 1000 years ago+. That is simple stretching the argument to fit your narrative. Scientists dont know if moses ACTUALLY parted the red sea himself, or if god actually did it.

The dont know if the burning bush was some dude lighting it on fire, or god actually speaking.

What can scientists ACTUALLY test considering nothing from the bible is around today.

I mean the dead sea scrolls survived, but the fact of the matter is, what happened thousands and thousands of years ago, cannot be proven or disproven TODAY.

Furthermore, who cares what you think or believe, just like you dont care or believe what christians believe. Why does it REALLY MATTER if GOD exists, or doesnt?

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So what I take from this is that regardless of what anyone says to you you're gonna stick by your beliefs which is admirable. But as I see it nobody is trying to convert you, it only seems to be going the other way. Why are you so intent on making others "see the light"? We should all just agree to keep personal beliefs exactly that, personal.

This being said there are actually churches of atheism so indeed it can be classified as a religion just one with a different set of views.

Some also argue that you are not indeed atheist but agnostic since you choose not to believe and base it on the principle that it cannot be proved that god does exist.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
Atheism cannot be classified as a religion because it's not a religion. Lol. And I am very much atheist. Agnosticism is a descriptor; it is possible to be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Conversely, you can be a gnostic atheist or a gnostic theist. Can you find and name me an atheist church?

Good try with American Atheists though. AA is an organization that defends the civil liberties of atheists and provides speakers for events. The 9/11 cross fiasco was a government establishment of a specific religion, which is constitutionally illegal.

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your position is that science can prove things that happened 1000 years ago+. That is simple stretching the argument to fit your narrative. Scientists dont know if moses ACTUALLY parted the red sea himself, or if god actually did it.Scientists would disagree with you. Particularly the archeologists that say that the parting of the red sea is a myth. Something tells me though, that faced with actual scientific evidence, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

[Vteckidd]

not when the science is based on flaws, no i wouldnt. IMO

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So your answer is no, you wouldn't believe scientific evidence if it was presented to you.

Scientific evidence that has been scrutinized and tested through the scientific method, and generally accepted universally through science isn't "based on flaws". I don't even know what "based on flaws" means.

[Vteckidd]

i personally believe that no scientist today can disprove or prove anything that happened 1000s of years ago based on what man wrote down in the bible.

Scientists can theorize all the "bible stories" and lore that has happened, but its just theories.

Dinosaurs throws a huge wrench in the bible methodology, so does darwins theory, and many others.

But no one we know can prove without a shadow of a doubt that those things DIDNT happen, as we were not present.

YOu are arguing with yourself from this point forward, we just disagree.

[Vteckidd]

if you can show me absolute proof that god doesnt exist, then ill believe you.

[Vteckidd]

Scientific evidence that has been scrutinized and tested through the scientific method, and generally accepted universally through science isn't "based on flaws".

I dont believe science is infallible sorry. Scientists have been wrong many times over the ages. Science is opinion of man, it can be proven, and disproven as time and technology evolve.

[geoff]

You say the test is science and religion fails miserably...please show me where and when these "tests" were done. If there were scientific proof that even one of the events in the Bible never happened...then Christianity, the Bible, and Faith would all be defeated. So, please give me the date of the experiments, the scientists who organized them, and the difinitive results that show this. As far as i know, i have yet to read any article or new headline that says," Science has proven God to be the biggest hoax ever!"....you had doubts based on the institution that failed you. God did not fail you my friend, you lost hope in man and the leaders that were to "shepherd" you to the way of eternal life. When this happened, you turned your back on God and walked away....the rest is just an inevitable outcome...you researched the atheistic ideas and decided for yourself that they provided a better case. Now, from bitterness, you attempt to single handly bring down the entire " religion ". What you fail to realize my friend is this, God DOES NOT need YOU to believe in Him in order for His existence to continue. We do not feed His immortality with our prayers, tithes, offerings, or witnessing. He is still God in the end whether you choose to accept that or not. You seem to have thrown in the towel for the battle of your soul, let that be it then. Keep your darkest thoughts about the faith to yourself and curse God in your own mind. Remember this though, bitterness is the pill you swallow hoping "they" die. A wise man once told me, " if the Bible was written by evil men they would not have included such high moral standards nor such a promise of love and hope. If good men wrote it; they would not have falsely claimed divine inspiration." The Bible speaks truly when it says," heaven and earth shall pass away, yet these words will remain." How many men have lived to proclaim that God is not real? How many of them went to the grave promising the masses that there is no afterlife and that they should be "open minded free thinkers" and live life fully? Their bones are in the ground today.....my Bible still stands in one piece, undefeated, and to this current day....infallible................listen closely my friend....you might still hear the small whisper of Gods' voice amongst all the chaos and shouts of the world.

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I dont believe science is infallible sorry. Scientists have been wrong many times over the ages. Science is opinion of man, it can be proven, and disproven as time and technology evolve.

The beauty of the scientific method is that it is infallible. Science itself isn't proven infallible, only ideas. Science is only the method and it remains the same as time and technology evolves. Take Newtons laws of gravity for instance, it was repeatedly tested and later replaced with a theory that better explained things (general relativity)

[geoff]

I want to ask you a serious question now. When you have children some day, being the "hardcore" atheist you are, will you keep them from searching for God themselves. Will you give them the option from childhood to have a chance and hear of Jesus, read the Bible, and pray? Or will you put down your atheistic dictatorial foot and stiffle any such thought of "religion"? Will you fill your children's minds with the poison of science and declare to them, " Hear O' my children, there is no God, no God but the one inside yourselves"? You may choose to believe in nothing, if you are wrong then you will have literal "hell" to pay for it. Will you enforce that on your children too? Your wife/domestic partner? You see, if im wrong, then when i die nothing happens. But if you are wrong, when you die you will have to try and explain why you chose not to believe, why you turned your back on your upbringing, why you cursed God and chose death. Is that really something you want to gamble when another's soul is in your hands? Think about that long and hard. It's not a fear tactic....it is fact that science cannot and will not ever be able to prove if their is an afterlife...you are betting a lot on a practice (science) that time and again proves itself flawed and fallible....

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You say the test is science and religion fails miserably...please show me where and when these "tests" were done.Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?

[95420A]

First Church of Atheism. It's real. It is a church which make atheism a religion. It's ministers are ordained and are legally able to perform weddings and such.

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When I have children, they will have the same access to the same knowledge I have, furthermore, the will have the same options of following whichever paths they choose in life. My wife, a believer of god, believes the same. But I refuse to take part in any kind of forced indoctrination.

This is definitely something I've thought long and hard about. I know that if I'm wrong in not believing in "god", and if it really is a god of peace and love, that I will be judged based on my actions during life and he will understand that I used my head and reason instead of blindly following dogma. If I'm wrong, and god is the same as depicted in the bible, then assuredly most of the people you know are going to burn in hell for eternity anyway, so we'll be in good company. If I'm right, then I'll have lived a great life, and raised children to know that it's ok to think for themselves.

[geoff]

Should I start in genesis with the talking snake? Or how about the myth of Noah's ark? Or Moses magically parting the Red sea? You're right though. I turned my back on the Judeo-Christian god. Especially after I read the bible, the only written account of his "existence". Based on this account, why worship a deity who is evil and jealous? Between the thousands of gods people around the globe worship, how can we be sure he's the correct one? If he is the correct one, why would he create a world where over 90% of its inhabitants are damned to hell for all eternity?

Yes please do. but, i wanna see where the scientific method was used...i don't want to see a thesis or article where Dr.X says it is impossible because X natural law. After all, we are talking about miracles here....miracles are done by the supernatural or those that are above and not bound by our natural laws. After all, if God was bound by physics...He wouldn't be God at all.

I knew i was right, God never failed you my friend....humanity did. The Bible is not the "only" written account. What about other cultures that had a monotheistic society? How do you know they did not worship the same Judeo-Christian God yet called Him something else? How can you say God is evil and He damns 90% of humanity? You are obviously referring to the Old Testament. God established certain laws for humanity to follow. They did not and were given the punishment for transgression. Much like our own civil society these days. If you murder, rape, steal, cheat, ect....and transgress the established laws of the land....you will pay the consequences. Does that make our judicial system evil? Is society evil for wanting to impose punishment or retribution on those that break the law? No, God never punished an innocent man. The law of the land was given as well as what the punishment was. People broke the law and they were punished.

Evil is entirely dependent on the society that experiences it. for example, before the 1960's blacks were treated as 2nd rate citizens. Rewind another century or so and they were enslaved. They were viewed as no better than animals and said to not even possess a soul. If that were to happen in this current society it would be viewed as inhumane and evil, yet at that time it was the norm and no immorality was found in it. Interestingly though, in scripture some slaves were paid, some sold themselves into slavery, and every 7 years all slaves were to be freed. The New Testament actually goes into detail that slaves were not to be mistreated or to be shown cruelty.

God does not condemn anyone to hell. He gives us all free will and free choice. We are equipped with a rational thought processing mind. We and given the blueprint on what we are to do and the consequences if we don't. In all reality, we condemn only ourselves based on our choices.

[95420A]

Also if I'm not mistaken the supreme court ruled that atheism was indeed a religion. And this ruling was handed down at the request of a group of atheist that wanted protection under the first amendment and the whole freedom of religion thing. On another note I do comend you for your stand on letting your children decide for themselves. I believe every parent regardless of faith should do this.

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[geoff]

This is definitely something I've thought long and hard about. I know that if I'm wrong in not believing in "god", and if it really is a god of peace and love, that I will be judged based on my actions during life and he will understand that I used my head and reason instead of blindly following dogma. If I'm wrong, and god is the same as depicted in the bible, then assuredly most of the people you know are going to burn in hell for eternity anyway, so we'll be in good company. If I'm right, then I'll have lived a great life, and raised children to know that it's ok to think for themselves.

read my above post to see that our own "morality" will not count. You will be judged on what God has laid down as the path to righteousness...we can't exactly say its unfair. After all, I personally wasn't involved in writing our constitution and find some things unfair. Does that mean that if i choose to ignore certain laws that i don't have to pay the penalty? Sadly, no. I give you a thumbs up for this response. It shows me that you do actually have an opinion that is all your own, as far as your children go.

How often do you think of death? Of " what if there is an afterlife, is there anything after death, is life really meaningless?" I would seriously like to know.

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if you can show me absolute proof that god doesnt exist, then ill believe you.

If you prove to me that magical fairies don't exist, I will use your method. Lol. Once again, you're shifting the burden of proof. It's not on science to prove god exists, the burden of proof is on the believer

If I said I had a magical wish granting genie in my hand, you would probably say I was full of shit, right? Then what if I said "prove to me there isn't a magical wish granting genie"?

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How often do you think of death? Of " what if there is an afterlife, is there anything after death, is life really meaningless?" I would seriously like to know.I try not to think about death, and instead focus on the thoughts about life. But I know that when I die, my body will decompose and that there is no afterlife. My mind will return to the state it was before it existed in the first place. People who think life is meaningless are misguided. Life is what you make of it while you're alive. The only eternal life that exists are in the memories of the living, whether your life was spent doing good or evil. Albert Einstein, an atheist, will be remembered forever due to his contributions he made to society while he was alive. Adolf Hitler, a theist, will be remembered forever due to his actions.

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read my above post to see that our own "morality" will not count. You will be judged on what God has laid down as the path to righteousness...we can't exactly say its unfair.This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.

If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell

[geoff]

I try not to think about death, and instead focus on the thoughts about life. But I know that when I die, my body will decompose and that there is no afterlife. My mind will return to the state it was before it existed in the first place. People who think life is meaningless are misguided. Life is what you make of it while you're alive. The only eternal life that exists are in the memories of the living, whether your life was spent doing good or evil. Albert Einstein, an atheist, will be remembered forever due to his contributions he made to society while he was alive. Adolf Hitler, a theist, will be remembered forever due to his actions.

But the fact remains that you are not 100% sure what comes after death...correct?


This is why I absolutely reject the Judeo-Christian god. According to the bible, no matter how many women I rape, no matter how many people I kill, as long as I repent, he will forgive my transgressions and I will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. However, if I fall in love with another man or think for myself, I'll burn in hell for all eternity.

If there are a bunch of rapists and murderers in heaven and a bunch of my friends and other atheists in hell, I think I'd take my chances in hell

Repentance is more than saying im sorry. God searches the hearts of man not the outward appearance. When a man or woman comes to a revelation of Jesus and what He did, they realize their faults and the wrong they have done, confess and ask for forgiveness and then honestly try to not commit the same trespasses....that man/woman is forgiven. God knows who is honest about repentance and who isn't. I have asked forgiveness for things i did that i really didn't feel bad about, then at times i cried and pleaded with God to forgive me for other things. God knows what was in my heart. With your own backround in christianity, im sure you knew very well who was sincere and who wasn't.

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Yes please do. but, i wanna see where the scientific method was used...i don't want to see a thesis or article where Dr.X says it is impossible because X natural law. After all, we are talking about miracles here....miracles are done by the supernatural or those that are above and not bound by our natural laws. After all, if God was bound by physics...He wouldn't be God at all. So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?


I knew i was right, God never failed you my friend....humanity did. The Bible is not the "only" written account. What about other cultures that had a monotheistic society? How do you know they did not worship the same Judeo-Christian God yet called Him something else? How can you say God is evil and He damns 90% of humanity? You are obviously referring to the Old Testament. God established certain laws for humanity to follow. They did not and were given the punishment for transgression. Much like our own civil society these days.The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?


Evil is entirely dependent on the society that experiences it. for example, before the 1960's blacks were treated as 2nd rate citizens. Rewind another century or so and they were enslaved. They were viewed as no better than animals and said to not even possess a soul. If that were to happen in this current society it would be viewed as inhumane and evil, yet at that time it was the norm and no immorality was found in it. Interestingly though, in scripture some slaves were paid, some sold themselves into slavery, and every 7 years all slaves were to be freed. The New Testament actually goes into detail that slaves were not to be mistreated or to be shown cruelty.So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.


God does not condemn anyone to hell. He gives us all free will and free choice. You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.

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But the fact remains that you are not 100% sure what comes after death...correct?Complete cessation of brain function, then decomposition




Repentance is more than saying im sorry. God searches the hearts of man not the outward appearance. When a man or woman comes to a revelation of Jesus and what He did, they realize their faults and the wrong they have done, confess and ask for forgiveness and then honestly try to not commit the same trespasses....that man/woman is forgiven. God knows who is honest about repentance and who isn't. I have asked forgiveness for things i did that i really didn't feel bad about, then at times i cried and pleaded with God to forgive me for other things. God knows what was in my heart. With your own backround in christianity, im sure you knew very well who was sincere and who wasn't.So if I rape and kill a bunch of children, then come to a realization that I was genuinely out of my mind, and I repented, and went to my grave never killing or raping again, I can get into heaven. But if I fall in love with another man, and do everything I would to him as I would with a woman, to my grave with the same man the whole time, happy every minute of it, I'll go to hell. If I live my life the way I want, and completely reject everything about god and religion, and then die, and then find out that it was in fact all real, I'll still go to hell. This is how your bible is laid out. This is what you believe?

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Also if I'm not mistaken the supreme court ruled that atheism was indeed a religion. And this ruling was handed down at the request of a group of atheist that wanted protection under the first amendment and the whole freedom of religion thing. On another note I do comend you for your stand on letting your children decide for themselves. I believe every parent regardless of faith should do this.

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A Wisconsin circuit court of appeals ruled that an atheistic group meeting was protected under the same rights that a religious group had under the establishment clause of the constitutions. Atheists, as US citizens, have the same rights as religious people under the constituion.

[geoff]

So you want me to show you scientific proof of something that isn't bound by physics, without using science?
You stated earlier that science had tested some of these things and proved them false...show me the proof.


The Judeo-Christian god isn't the only god. You refer to the old testament like it doesn't apply anymore. Are we to believe that believers are no longer bound by the ten commandments? Or by any law put fourth in the old testament?
Im not saying that The Old Testament no longer applies or has no meaning. But, if you did read the Bible cover to cover you would have read that in the Law was only death as no man could keep it. But the sacrifice that God made as Jesus the Savior, fulfilled the Law and He could then cover our sins in His blood. You cannot simply look at it as a white or black. The Law was more than just the 10 commandments as Grace is more than just confessing Jesus as Lord.


So since slavery was back in the day, and it was the norm, it was ok? Paid slavery is no longer slavery proper, they're called servants, indentured or otherwise.
You missed my whole point. Slavery now would be considered as evil and inhumane, but in that period of time yes it was the norm. And also the civil rights movement, Your grandparents ( if they lived in the u.s.) probably saw blacks as niggers and worth nothing and were probably very prejudice and racist...these days, things like this are looked down upon. Once again, I think you missed the point.


You dont believe in Gods will? It's laid out perfectly clear in the bible who he condemns.
Yes God does have His will, our freedom lies in the action of us choosing to obey it or not. It is also clear in Federal and State law what is constituted as a crime and the punishments for it. Yet you do not seem to object to it...why?


So if I rape and kill a bunch of children, then come to a realization that I was genuinely out of my mind, and I repented, and went to my grave never killing or raping again, I can get into heaven. But if I fall in love with another man, and do everything I would to him as I would with a woman, to my grave with the same man the whole time, happy every minute of it, I'll go to hell. If I live my life the way I want, and completely reject everything about god and religion, and then die, and then find out that it was in fact all real, I'll still go to hell. This is how your bible is laid out. This is what you believe?
If you were sincere and truly turned from it and actually tried to make a difference...yes you would be forgiven. Like I said, your idea of fair is not the same as Gods' apparently. The reason you would go to hell for homosexuality is the fact that there is no repentance involved. You do not see it as wrong, yet God declares it so. Once again, I don't believe in all the laws of our land, yet if i break them i will be punished. Yes that is what I believe, it is as simple as natural law of cause and effect....The justice system of most civilized nations mirrors that of the Judeo-Christian religion. How do I know this? Because it is thousands of years old as our modern justice system is not.

What I see here has not changed, you still seem to have more of a problem with the "church", "religion", and "christians" in general. Your real underlying problem still isn't with God Himself...I would like to conduct an experiment with you....if you are truly "open minded" then you would be willing to find what actual "truth" was yes? I mean to say that, whether the evidence pointed towards God existing or not, you would choose your beliefs on whatever was most factual. So, that being said, I would like for you to try something. Pm me for details.

[bu villain]

You see, if im wrong, then when i die nothing happens. But if you are wrong, when you die you will have to try and explain why you chose not to believe, why you turned your back on your upbringing, why you cursed God and chose death. Is that really something you want to gamble when another's soul is in your hands?

This is a very common logical fallacy when dealing with religious belief. You assume that either he is is right or you are are right when those are not the only two options. It could be that you both are wrong. Maybe there is a God but he hates Christians and loves atheists. There could be a God who doesn't care what you believe either way. To assume that believing in Christianity is the "safe" choice is simply illogical.

[geoff]

How is it illogical. Lets assume that there does indeed exist an All Mighty Creator who designed everything with intent and purpose. This being, who created intelligent humanity with a conscience is also intelligent. It is known fact that all intelligent beings/species try to communicate (after all, that is how our race became civil yes?). Would it not then be common sense that the Supreme Intelligence would want to communicate with the intelligent beings that He Himself formed? Would not this being want to establish a relationship with other said intelligence? Think about it, every creature on earth establishes some sort of relationship with their kind. There have been tests done by many that showed isolation is actually harmful to species capable of any level of intelligence. If every animate form of life on earth seeks to establish relationship and communication, how then can you assume that said "God" would not do the same? I can also go into detail as to why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being if you are interested.

[thesammy]

So... Can science prove how the universe came to be? Or at least how the earth came to be?

[thesammy]

Btw, many of us can only gain so much knowledge on our own. We read others findings of spending their lifetime studying specific fields. Even then, many of the "experts" come up with "supporting facts" that oppose one another.

I think it's going to take faith whether you believe their is ONE God who created everything, or that the earth just happened (and there are other beliefes, but seems like these are the main two).

It really doesn't help talking about these issues over the internet I have found. Lol. But most of these people are set in their ways. Even to make the most valid point in this thread, it will be disregarded as something "that radical,XXXXX, who believes in 'X', which I don't agree with."

[95420A]

A Wisconsin circuit court of appeals ruled that an atheistic group meeting was protected under the same rights that a religious group had under the establishment clause of the constitutions. Atheists, as US citizens, have the same rights as religious people under the constituion.

Slice it all you want. Not only is there an established church of atheism its also legally recognized as a religion.

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Slice it all you want. Not only is there an established church of atheism its also legally recognized as a religion.

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You think that website is an established church of atheism, huh? Lol. You had to reach REALLY far.

[95420A]

You think that website is an established church of atheism, huh? Lol. You had to reach REALLY far.

Not really a reach. First thing that pops up when you search for church of atheism on Google. Atheists now have ordained ministers and are classified as a religion so I'm not sure where your basis for the argument is. Unless your point is that without a brick and mortar location something cannot be classified as a religion. If that's the case we will have to further identify the criteria that needs to be met for something to be called a religion. Last time I checked it was a group of people that share a belief in the existance of god. That's not solely based on a belief that he DOES exist, just that it is a shared belief. So your belief that he doesn't exist classifies. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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[ISAtlanta300]

If every animate form of life on earth seeks to establish relationship and communication, how then can you assume that said "God" would not do the same? I can also go into detail as to why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being if you are interested.

But He doesn't. As intelligent and supreme as He supposedly is, He doesn't show himself, like Jesus supposedly did years ago. So does He or does He not want to communicate with us? Why wait until we die for the 'ultimate test'? It's like "I won't show myself or give you proof of my existence, but you have to trust me on this. I'm here..... and if you don't believe that, you're doomed!"

He gives us such a wonderful rational brain but then demands that we not be rational? i.e. question Him and His existence? Because that would doom us?


"why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being" - You describe Him like you know him personally. You only know Him by how others (and the Bible) describe Him...think about that.....

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Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Absolutely. In order for it to be a religion, atheists would have to share a common belief. Since NOT believing in something doesn't qualify as a common belief, we can rule that out. Also there would have to be some kind of symbol and deity that atheists all worship, like the bible, Jesus, god. Since there are no symbols like that for atheists, we have to rule that out as well.

Have you heard of a-tooth fairy-ism? The religion where the people believe that the tooth fairy doesn't exist?

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And yes, a church is a brick and mortar location. Not a website

[95420A]

A firmly held idea or conviction is the definition of belief. You have a strong conviction that god does not exist. But no matter what I say you will refuse to except it.

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A firmly held idea or conviction is the definition of belief. You have a strong conviction that god does not exist. But no matter what I say you will refuse to except it.

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I still don't think you're comprehending the definition. In order to believe something doesn't exist, it would imply that something existed in the first place. You have a strong belief that god exists. I do not believe god exists. This is an entirely different concept than believing he doesn't exist.

Do you believe that Batman doesn't exist in real life? No, because he doesn't exist. So you do not believe batman exists.

If, however, god was real and presented himself to the human race, and we were 100% sure without a doubt it was him, and THEN all atheists said they STILL didn't believe he existed you would be exactly correct.

"But no matter what you say, I will refuse to accept it."

This is called confirmation bias.

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If you could show me one iota of proof that atheists believe that god doesnt exist, without using a logical fallacy, using correct definitions, I would Accept what you said as true. That's the funny thing about believers. They want to use science to try to prove us wrong, but when it ends up proving them wrong, science is faulty

[Vteckidd]

this is why i hate having these discussions because you go off on some tangent , so now we are arguing whether atheists are a "religion" or not, rather than talking about the original issue.

Again, you cannot prove god DOESNT exist, and no one else can prove that he DOES. Why not just LEAVE IT AT THAT?

Why do you feel you have to prove (even though you KNOW you cannot) that god doesnt exist? If no one is forcing you to change your beliefs , why are you forcing yours on everyone else?

Serious question

[Vteckidd]

If i want to believe that my dog is the messiah, im allowed to, regardless of what YOU think.

Just like you can believe whatever you want.

I agree there should be a line about governing using your religion, that is not right, even though the christians do outnumber everyone and this was a christian founded nation (as discussed before).

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this is why i hate having these discussions because you go off on some tangent , so now we are arguing whether atheists are a "religion" or not, rather than talking about the original issue.

Again, you cannot prove god DOESNT exist, and no one else can prove that he DOES. Why not just LEAVE IT AT THAT?

Why do you feel you have to prove (even though you KNOW you cannot) that god doesnt exist? If no one is forcing you to change your beliefs , why are you forcing yours on everyone else?

Serious question

Serious answer.

Go back and read who ends up going off on a tangent. People ask questions, I give answers based on the information I have. the information says atheism is not a religion. Look it up If you feel in your heart of hearts that it is, then good for you

No one can prove something doesn't exist. This is impossible. You can prove something exists, or it simply doesn't exist until further information is provided. I'm giving readily available information. I'm not spouting beliefs. I haven't said one word about what I believe. To tell you the honest truth, I try not to use the word "believe". Either information is true or not true. If I don't know if it's true or not, I'll research. If it check out great, if not, on to the next one.

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I agree there should be a line about governing using your religion, that is not right, even though the christians do outnumber everyone and this was a christian founded nation (as discussed before).Ok. That's what you believe.

Now that that's established, we can set that aside. What evidence of this claim do you use to support your conjecture?

[bu villain]

How is it illogical. Lets assume that there does indeed exist an All Mighty Creator who designed everything with intent and purpose.

But I don't assume that and neither does any atheist. Even if I did, I don't understand what the rest of your point is. It's a bunch of loose associations and even more assumptions which is supposed to make me conclude that God will send people to hell if they are atheists?

[bu villain]

I know this wasn't directed at me but it is an important issue to discuss.


Again, you cannot prove god DOESNT exist, and no one else can prove that he DOES. Why not just LEAVE IT AT THAT?

The issue is that atheists agree with your statement but most religions don't. They say that God DOES exist, 100% for sure, FACT.


Why do you feel you have to prove (even though you KNOW you cannot) that god doesnt exist? If no one is forcing you to change your beliefs , why are you forcing yours on everyone else?

Serious question

No one is trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They are trying to say that NO ONE KNOWS. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything here. This is simply a forum for discussion. If you don't want to be part of the discussion, I don't think you have to worry about blank.cd showing up at your church, on your TV, or anywhere else for that matter yelling at you for believing in God.

[Vteckidd]

The issue is that atheists agree with your statement but most religions don't. They say that God DOES exist, 100% for sure, FACT.

WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT OTHER RELIGIONS BELIEVE ???? Atheists belive god DOESNT EXIST, religious people believe he DOES exist. SINCE NONE OF US HAVE FUCKING DIED AND BEEN ABLE TO REPORT BACK WHETHER ITS TRUE OR NOT, NONE OF US KNOWS.

THe problem is that both sides try to prove the other one wrong by advocating THEIR WAY/BELIEFS are correct based on their interpretation of religion.




No one is trying to prove that God doesn't exist. They are trying to say that NO ONE KNOWS. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything here. This is simply a forum for discussion. If you don't want to be part of the discussion, I don't think you have to worry about blank.cd showing up at your church, on your TV, or anywhere else for that matter yelling at you for believing in God.

Its not a discussion, its a forum for him to advocate that hes right. Hes not respecting ANYONE elses views, he saying "im right, and this is why".

Im saying he can believe in whatever he wants, but trying to say other people are wrong makes him JUST AS BAD as the religious right wing nuts.

[Vteckidd]

No one can prove something doesn't exist. This is impossible. You can prove something exists, or it doesn't exist until further information is provided. I'm giving readily available information. I'm not spouting beliefs. I haven't said one word about what I believe. To tell you the honest truth, I try not to use the word "believe". Either information is true or not true. If I don't know if it's true or not, I'll research. If it check out great, if not, on to the next one.

Youve offered nothing to defend your argument god doesnt exist. not IMO

no one can offer you evidence that god DOES exist because, newsflash, THERES NO SOLID PROOF, thats what its called FAITH or BELIEF.

You started the topic trying to insinuate that people who believe in god are as dumb as the north koreans who believe that fans kill them in their sleep. I said that was a horrible comparison because we can sleep in a room and see if you die with a fan on, you cannot simple go down a road and meet GOD to see if he exists and then report back.

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WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT OTHER RELIGIONS BELIEVE ???? Atheists belive god DOESNT EXIST, religious people believe he DOES exist.So religious people can believe with 100% certainty god is real, and you don't care, but when I say there's no evidence to support this, I'm just as bad as right wing religious nuts? Hmmm

[Vteckidd]

So religious people can believe with 100% certainty god is real, and you don't care, but when I say there's no evidence to support this, I'm just as bad as right wing religious nuts? Hmmm

if thats what you think then you have serious reading comprehension problems.

If atheists dont believe, GREAT, GOOD FOR THEM, I DONT CARE. YOu can believe there is no evidence to support this, but thats NOT what you are doing. YOu are telling people they are wrong, rather than just saying "i dont believe in that".

Im not telling you you are WRONG for being an atheist, im telling you youre wrong for telling others THEY are wrong based on YOUR beliefs.

if you dont understand that, there really isnt anything to discuss further.

[Vteckidd]

here ill help you, you could have answered your own question


THe problem is that both sides try to prove the other one wrong by advocating THEIR WAY/BELIEFS are correct based on their interpretation of religion.

[geoff]

But He doesn't. As intelligent and supreme as He supposedly is, He doesn't show himself, like Jesus supposedly did years ago. So does He or does He not want to communicate with us? Why wait until we die for the 'ultimate test'? It's like "I won't show myself or give you proof of my existence, but you have to trust me on this. I'm here..... and if you don't believe that, you're doomed!"

He gives us such a wonderful rational brain but then demands that we not be rational? i.e. question Him and His existence? Because that would doom us?


"why the Abrahamic God is the most rational and probable ultimate being" - You describe Him like you know him personally. You only know Him by how others (and the Bible) describe Him...think about that.....

What you fail to realize is that Jesus was God. He did show Himself to the people. He did communicate with His creation. The Gospels our full of words that the Creator spoke directly to His creation. You can question His existence, the Bible does not forbid it. God wants you to search for the truth and He wants you to put in the work. I do know Him personally, I had a very real very personal relationship with the Creator. It was not based on what others told me or taught, it was a result of me searching what the truth was. Go ahead and dismiss it, but I know for a fact that He is real....and if you really wanted to...so could you.

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Sounds like you're missing the point of the thread as well, and probably misinterpreting everything I'm saying. Vteckidd, if criticizing of religion offends you, please feel free to click the X button on your browser

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You can question His existence, the Bible does not forbid it. God wants you to search for the truth and He wants you to put in the work.Are you sure about this? From what It says in the bible, questioning God is a damnable offense.

[geoff]

Are you sure about this? From what It says in the bible, questioning God is a damnable offense.
I can see why you believe this, understand it was a different time when God Himself was with the Israelites. They heard from Him and experienced Him personally. They then questioned God. It is encouraged in the New Testament to search and find God. " Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1john4:1

[95420A]

Another reason I believe atheism is a religion is because of the fact that some of the folks are constantly trying to force there religious view down my throat. Bout as damn bad as Jehovah's witnesses really. And you are no better than any of nuts from any other religion. It's the "My way is correct and you are all wrong" attitude. Explain what makes you different if you must and I'm sure you will and it will be the same tired arguments. Please pick a new topic because religious discussions are pointless really for both sides. When you from someone they are wrong they automatically go on the defensive and they close themselves off to any new ideas which has been illustrated here.

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[thesammy]

So do even the people who say there is no God agree the bible is largely a historical document? There really is no question when most of those books were written, and by whom.

There have been accounts of "Jesus Christ" in other historical documents. There is evidence found of many of the locations/things spoken about in the bible, even such an odd occurrence as the walls of Jericho, which were found to have fallen outward, like the bible describes, when the walls usually only fell inward due to attack from other nations. There are prophecies in the old testament written by many men, over hundreds of years, who had never seen or heard of one another, and yet one man fulfilled them all?

Whether the things these men wrote were true or not, it's a fact they know when they were written, and who it was written by. That alone is enough to get me thinking.

Someone made a comment to Geoff saying something to the effect of 'sounds like you would have to have had a relationship with God.'
I'm pretty sure Geoff does. It's a whole different world as a follower of Christ, having the holy spirit in you. Christianity isn't a religion, It's a relationship with what we consider our creator. Church isn't a building (as mentioned earlier), it's uniting with our brothers and sisters in fellowship.

The so called facts that science shows for there being no God, can show just as much that there is a God. There is a large movement of scientist that has been moving toward what they are now calling "Intelligent Design" because many scientists cannot find enough proof for their evolutionist theory, and are seeing more and more reason to think we have a creator.

There has never been anything made that did not have a purpose, and we are part of that. Just think about it; The coaster you put your cup on to keep from water stains, the felt that sits under your chair to avoid scratches, the twist ties you use to keep your bread closed. Those things didn't pop out of no where, and they don't just sit around waiting for us to find a use for them. They were created for a specific reason.

To think your life is over after 70 or 80 years and to live it pleasing yourself entirely is a waste imo, not to say I don't enjoy things and that I never do anything God doesn't approve, but if we still have an eternity ahead of ourselves, there's a lot more to this short life then partying.

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Another reason I believe atheism is a religion is because of the fact that some of the folks are constantly trying to force there religious view down my throat. Bout as damn bad as Jehovah's witnesses really. And you are no better than any of nuts from any other religion. It's the "My way is correct and you are all wrong" attitude. Explain what makes you different if you must and I'm sure you will and it will be the same tired arguments. Please pick a new topic because religious discussions are pointless really for both sides. When you from someone they are wrong they automatically go on the defensive and they close themselves off to any new ideas which has been illustrated here.

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Atheists shove their religious views down your throat? Im pretty sure that's never happened since non-religious people don't have religious views. Can you give an example of a religious view that was forced upon you? Was it in this thread? Did someone in this thread force you to click that button and enter?

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So do even the people who say there is no God agree the bible is largely a historical document?Historical fictional document, yes. But it does give some insight to the time period it was written


The so called facts that science slhows for there being no God, can show just as much that there is a God. There is a large movement of scientist that has been moving toward what they are now calling "Intelligent Design" because many scientists cannot find enough proof for their evolutionist theory, and are seeing more and more reason to think we have a creator. There are zero facts that show there is a god. Any scientist that replaces their lack of findings on evolution with intelligent design isn't a credible scientist. Creation and Abiogenesis are entirely separate scientific concepts from evolution. On top of that, there is already proof of evolution and is already generally accepted in the scientific community.


There has never been anything made that did not have a purpose, and we are part of that. Just think about it; The coaster you put your cup on to keep from water stains, the felt that sits under your chair to avoid scratches, the twist ties you use to keep your bread closed. Those things didn't pop out of no where, and they don't just sit around waiting for us to find a use for them. They were created for a specific reason. All of those things were created by man

[thesammy]

So like I mentioned before, there are "credible" sources on both sides of the spectrum. There is only so much we can learn in our lifetime, we have to base some opinion on what others have learned and there is still many opposing views.

To deny the bible has historical fact within it, as secular history will also agree, shows you're being hard headed.

My .02. Probably won't be back in this thread. Lol

[Vteckidd]

You can't reason with unreasonable people. We have no way of knowing if the Bible is fiction or not, but he doesn't acknowledge that, he assumes its fiction to use that as a basis for telling you you're wrong.

Its really not worth arguing with him

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I'm being unreasonable? Didn't half of you guys say even if you saw evidence that counters your belief you wouldn't even consider it because it goes against your beliefs? Have you looked up the definition of reasonable lately? Lol
You can't reason with unreasonable people.This is very true.

[Vteckidd]

none of us said that, well i didnt. The only evidence you would have to offer me to prove god didnt exist was to die, film youself not going to an afterlife. since we know that cant happen, i remain open to the possibility that there is a higher power.

YOu cant offer any credible evidence at all. YOU may think it is credible, but its not. Nothing you say will change my mind. Science cannot prove there isnt a god. It cant explain how we got here, it cant explain earth, it cant explain dinosaurs, or evolution, all kinds of things that leave some of us to wonder "hmmm maybe there is some higher being or creator".

My point is believe whatever you want, but dont try to insinuate we are as stupid as the people in the article you posted because you have an obsession with telling people they are wrong because we dont agree with you.

no one is forcing beliefs on anyone, except you.

*UNSUBSCRIBES

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not when the science is based on flaws, no i wouldnt. IMO

So if it is based on what you "believe" is "scientific flaws", even if it's not actually scientific flaws, you wouldn't accept scientific facts.

[bu villain]

As an atheist, I am saying "I don't know if there is a God". That is quite different than saying "There is no God." However, Geoff is saying "There is a God". If he said "I don't know but I prefer to believe there is a God" then I doubt there would be so much controversy in here.

Part of the problem is that when atheists say "There is no God", they really mean "Although it is possible that God exists, there is not currently convincing evidence of God". To atheists, it is no different than saying "There is no a Yeti in Tibet who can play the piano". It is possible that such a Yeti exists but since there is no evidence, most people take the stance that they will believe it when they see it. Unfortunately it is much shorter to simply say "There is no God" and that causes a lot of misunderstanding.

[geoff]

So if it is based on what you "believe" is "scientific flaws", even if it's not actually scientific flaws, you wouldn't accept scientific facts.

Here is the problem with science for those who believe in God. Science is forever changing. I understand that as new information/discoveries are made that science has to go back and alter their theories and ideals. I understand that the human race is ever advancing and as more technology becomes advanced that we will learn new things. My problem is not with science. Science does give a few examples of facts that we can not logically dispute...ie gravity exists. The problem is when a theory or idea which actually is not fact, is sold off as thus. Science as of today, can not rationally explain the origin of life with hard, solid, proof. Yet, they say it is "pretty much" factual. Why? Is it because it is there job to explain the origin based on science? After all, they are paid to do research in their own fields. If I was a car salesman for toyota, i would not talk the people in my dealership to go buy a chevrolet. I would say and do and provide "evidence" of why my car was better than theirs. Do you see the point I am making here?

In this thread you tried to portray those that believe in God as the Koreans that think sleeping with a fan on all night will kill you. You tried to link a ridiculous superstition of the korean people to that of those with faith. Seriously man, you claim to be an "atheist" that does not care/believe in any higher power, that you could not care less for the beliefs of Christians. Yet here you are trying to put down a belief system that since the beggining of time has existed. You are no scientist, evolutionary biologist, astrologist, genetics expert, abiogenisis expert, ect....You are a normal man who has read some articles, watched some videos, and fed off the negativity of others. Honestly, it much be very depressing to be an atheist...you have no hope, no future, no promise of anything and you spend your time trying to deceive others into giving up their rights to believe what they want based on "scientific facts" that actually have no solid foundation.

Truly spoken words my friend, " A man who stands for nothing, will fall for anything."

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In this thread you tried to portray those that believe in God as the Koreans that think sleeping with a fan on all night will kill you. You tried to link a ridiculous superstition of the korean people to that of those with faith. Seriously man, you claim to be an "atheist" that does not care/believe in any higher power, that you could not care less for the beliefs of Christians. Yet here you are trying to put down a belief system that since the beggining of time has existed.The point of the article was to point out that a belief system, even if understood by an entire nation to be true, does not automatically qualify it as true


You are no scientist, evolutionary biologist, astrologist, genetics expert, abiogenisis expert, ect....You are a normal man who has read some articles, watched some videos, and fed off the negativity of others.You must have read my Facebook page. You seem to know a lot about me. Lol


Honestly, it much be very depressing to be an atheist...you have no hope, no future, no promise of anything and you spend your time trying to deceive others into giving up their rights to believe what they want based on "scientific facts" that actually have no solid foundation.Almost as depressing as believing in a fictional entity who is jealous and evil, who will damn you to hell if you don't believe in him and passes out cookies to make you think he's a good guy, and an ideology that has caused more misery and death to mankind than any other idea, ever. All the while based on zero evidence or facts, scientific or otherwise.


Truly spoken words my friend, " A man who stands for nothing, will fall for anything."That is definitely the truth

[geoff]

I could continue this back and forth with you forever man lol. Neither one of us is going to throw up a white flag. So I shake your hand, and we part ways as gentlemen....until the next topic is posted lol