Do you believe in sience?

[geoff]

I have been a very active member in the religion forum but took some time off for a while. Most of you know how i tried my best to defend my faith and to try and show others why i believed. God knows, and some of you as well, how many different threads used to be in this section lol. Well after a short pause, I am back. Hello again to those with whom I have had fierce debates with and I hope you all are doing great. Now, to business.......

I have seen countless times the case for creation and God shut down rather quickly due to a lack of " tangible" or "scientific " evidence. The biggest cause of this with mainstream athiests, is that they say they can not reproduce creation according to the scientific method....therefore it can not be. I have a question for you all that claim God does not exist.....Does your science actually answer your questions of " who are we", "why are we", and " how did we get here" or does it leave you rather with more questions? There seem to be mainly two schools of thought on " how did we get here". We have Creation or intelligent design and The big bang theory/evolution. I will not sit here and try and explain why God is real or try and prove Him by scientific method. I will not simply say," because the Bible says so" either. Instead I will try and see why some of you go with science rather than the supernatural.

Now, most of us on this board have not gone to school to study physics, evolution, genetics, astrology, ect.... Most of us rather are just normal people working 9-5 that have questions and have done our fair share of research to try and answer the questions we so desperately want a definitive answer to. It is common knowledge that the theory of the Big Bang begins with Einsteins theory of relativity. That theory was then expanded upon by Friedmann and so on and so forth. There are many different models of this theory all which make certain assumptions...i.e. is the universe homogeneous or not...ect....

I have looked into the different models and different theories quite a bit and i found myself more confused at the end than when i began. The conclusion ( in its most simplistic form) that I came up with was this....Some really smart guy long ago came up with the theory of gravity and time and so on based on mathematical equations and information that was available to the current scientific community and for a century it has stood. Then another smart guy came and did some more math and made more assumptions and stated, " Ah HA!!!!! Eurika!!!! I know where the universe came from!" It all started 13 billion or so years ago when there was nothing but infinite heat and matter and all of a sudden it exploded and helium bonded with another element and so on and then there were stars and planets and such!

But then someone asks, " but why did this happen? and where did this all come from?" Then some more assumptions were made and it was concluded that the universe is expanding....and there was at one point....a beggining or singularity. However entertaining this explanation is with its very advanced math and use of big words....it leaves one still questioning. As more knowledge became known and more questions came, there came more models...now, some believe there to be many universes( many theories on this yet strangely no evidence to suggest this) and so on and so forth.

My point is this, none of you have studied physics nor anything else to do with the universe. No one knows for sure that the men and women that came up with these so called "scientific" proofs, formulas, theories, ect are even right. I mean, these scientist started their studies from nothing and all of a sudden come up with evidences. How to we know their calculations are right? What happens in another 100 years when new information is discovered and these models become ridiculous? You say there is no God yet you believe faithfully the studies of a man you never met nor have the knowledge to test.

Someone please answer this question intelligently....Knowing that the law of cause and effect is indisputable, so why then believe in the big bang theory over God when in fact, it does not answer how the universe originated? We were not there at the beggining or before it, so then why is it safe to assume that we as humans can explain the origin with our extremely limited knowledge of ourselves and the universe?

[geoff]

If you were to go strictly according to mainstream science then you would come to this conclusion....There is no purpose, no meaning, no afterlife, no ghosts, no aliens, no evil, no good, no miracles, no fate, no luck, no such thing as chance....yet every theory and model rests entirely on that last part...."chance". What they are saying and you are believing is that no matter how numerically impossible the odds are of the universe, our planet, and life entirely turning out the way it did; that by chance it happened. And yet, science can not test the methods of chance or explain it in a lab.

[-EnVus-]

My father was a Minister, and i learned not to push God onto others and that man could never fully understand the Bible. So all i can say is people will never be satisfied Religious,Non Religious or Atheist just cause they won't hear the Answers they seek. To answer your question though...Yes i do believe in science for God used it in creating everything and that's the best theory over some made up idea like magic.

[jonbuice5591]

i didnt grow up going to church every sunday or anything like that but my family is aslso religious so i grew up learning about god and my reading the childrens bible books whenever i was younger. so i too believe in god. oh and i like your sig

[geoff]

I did not mean do you believe in science in general....i meant to show how utterly ridiculous it is how so many believe in a theory that they know absolutely nothing about nor have the knowledge to understand it or how it came to be. You try and tell them about God and they say well prove it. I no longer push God on people. I learned why so many people have cursed Christianity and God and said that its all make believe. I lost faith in the " Church", i do not believe it is anywhere close to what God expects of it. But that does not mean i throw away my faith in God and Jesus as my Savior. My actual point of this is to get to the root of why so many are falling away and dismissing God. Its very alarming, but what i have concluded is that they lost faith in the men and institution that are supposed to represent our Lord. Thanks jonbuice....

[geoff]

by the way, there is a fine line between science as a means of explaining how God does something and replacing God all together...wouldnt you say?

[-EnVus-]

by the way, there is a fine line between science as a means of explaining how God does something and replacing God all together...wouldnt you say?

Yes and I to left the church as a child it has became disloyal and corupted

[jonbuice5591]

My dad raised me and we all believe in god and we all worship him. We never went to church growing up because he didnt think it was loyal either. So whenever i was about 13 i decided to go and see what it was all about and the preacher came up and introduced himself and asked me to cut my hair because i didnt look presentable in gods house. I grew up listening to rock music and loved the long hair. I said with all do respect sir jesus had long hair so would you ask him to cut his hair to look presentable or take all of the pictures of him out because they arent presentable? He got mad and kicked me out. Thats the reason why i do not attend church. Dont get me wrong i love god and will praise him forever but i didnt feel like a pastor should judge people especially whenever hes preaching gods word. He loves each and every one of us. Were his children! Thats why i get so aggrivated whenever people say that tattoos are for devil worshipers. I have long hair and tattoos and i worship god.

[quickdodge®]

i meant to show how utterly ridiculous it is ......

Still showing your true religious side. I was going to make a post to respond when I saw this comment by you. You couldn't just get a discussion going without reverting back to your true self. Judging others and name calling (probably) "in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost." Later, QD.

[.blank cd]

I don't believe in science.

I know that it works

There is no such thing as "mainstream science"

[.blank cd]

Let me rephrase. I believe you are using the word "believe" interchangeably with "faith"

[Bacon]

....... My actual point of this is to get to the root of why so many are falling away and dismissing God. Its very alarming, but what i have concluded is that they lost faith in the men and institution that are supposed to represent our Lord. Thanks jonbuice....

Have you thought about the ones that never "believed" in a deity to begin with; how are they to fall away or dismiss something that was never part of their lives to begin with? How can they lose faith in something they never chose to have in their life? Sounds to me you are pushing your faith on people and asking for an explanation in return.

Personally, I am an agnostic atheist and will remain that way until the end of my allotted time. Why? It is my choice and no one person can change it regardless of how hard they try.

Question to you. How do you know YOUR religion is the right one?

[Sinfix_15]

you ever watch the show "Ancient Aliens" ? the name sounds like it would be something foolish, but they have some very interesting and scientific theories about creation and religion.

This is a gross summarization of an idea, but i look at the Jesus story about the same way i look at my buddies fishing stories. He caught a 5lb bass, told someone about it. Next time he told someone else it was a 6lb, then 8lb... few years later he's sitting around the camp fire telling us about the 500lb shark he once caught.

I dont doubt Jesus may have existed and may have been a great person and did great things. I dont doubt he was crucified (like 1000s of others). Jesus was just as common a name as John and crucifixions were equally as common. This story has been retold, rewritten, retranslated over 1000s of years. I think it went from "Jesus was a great man" to "he walks on water, parts seas, and is the son of God".

Another tidbit of information, history records suggest that Mary was about 15 years old. In that time, sex out of wedlock was punishable by death. Why cant we apply the same logic we would today to these old stories? if your 15 year old daughter walked into your kitchen pregnant and told you she was a virgin, you wouldnt believe her. Why? because its absolutely ridiculous.

There's also several cases of forged efforts to provide proof of god's existence by respected church affiliates. Even commonly accepted "acts of god" have been easily explained by science. Stigmatas for example, you can hypnotize someone into believing and induce a stigmata. The mind is a powerful thing.

Another funny phrase i hear used by christians on issues like stemcell research and cloning. "playing God", if we can "play God", then maybe there's nothing special about "him" to begin with. If humans can create life, soil, plants, materials that exist here on earth, then maybe we created it all to begin with.

[oreign]

you know someone's dead religious when they misspell science.

[Sinfix_15]

My dad raised me and we all believe in god and we all worship him. We never went to church growing up because he didnt think it was loyal either. So whenever i was about 13 i decided to go and see what it was all about and the preacher came up and introduced himself and asked me to cut my hair because i didnt look presentable in gods house. I grew up listening to rock music and loved the long hair. I said with all do respect sir jesus had long hair so would you ask him to cut his hair to look presentable or take all of the pictures of him out because they arent presentable? He got mad and kicked me out. Thats the reason why i do not attend church. Dont get me wrong i love god and will praise him forever but i didnt feel like a pastor should judge people especially whenever hes preaching gods word. He loves each and every one of us. Were his children! Thats why i get so aggrivated whenever people say that tattoos are for devil worshipers. I have long hair and tattoos and i worship god.

I feel your pain, i spent 8 years with the preacher's daughter. Nothing like unveiling sleeve tats at a family pool party.

[CSquared]

They must have flipped when you busted out the banana hammock.

[geoff]

Qd- i was showing just how some who call themselves atheist mock those with religious beliefs. You took one statement out of my whole argument and debate much like you were in a buffet line. Please show ( you can copy and paste) where i once judged or name called anyone in this thread....i'll wait....

Bacon/blank cd- read closely my friend. I did not once offer to explain my side of beliefs did i? So how then am i pushing my beliefs on you? The atheist and agnostic believers do have " faith " in scientific explanations of our origins. Why is it faith? because 99% of atheists and agnostics can not even explain what the big bang actually means nor do they have the knowledge to test it, rather they blindly listen to Richard Dawkins and the like and believe what these men say. My question to those who believe there is no God and follow rather the Big Bang/evolution model is still this....Why do you believe this over the thought of God? Also, you asked how i know my " religion " is the right one.....i dont follow a " religion ". I believe in a personal relationship with God. How do I know its real? I searched for Him and He found me....since then i have experienced many things i can not explain with rationality...the relationship has been very two sided.

Sinfix- there are very detailed Bible verses which will debunk all of your arguments. As far as ancient aliens goes....there is no more tangible proof of their existence than tangible proof for God. Its people these days not able to explain a phenomenon and filled in the blanks. By the way, i too am tatted up and lost faith in the church and mainstream Christianity...i personally believe it has become a former shadow of the church founded by Christ and continued by the Apostles.

[quickdodge®]

Qd- i was showing just how some who call themselves atheist mock those with religious beliefs. You took one statement out of my whole argument and debate much like you were in a buffet line. Please show ( you can copy and paste) where i once judged or name called anyone in this thread....i'll wait....

If you would have read what I typed, you would have seen where you did judge and, in a sense, name called. No need to "copy and paste" as I actually quoted it in my initial response. I also told that I was going to respond until I saw that line. When you come in like that, that's what you'll get out of it. Later, QD.

[geoff]

This is what the entire sentence reads..."i meant to show how utterly ridiculous it is how so many believe in a theory that they know absolutely nothing about nor have the knowledge to understand it or how it came to be." Please show me the name calling and judgement coming from me. My comment was the same as saying," it is utterly ridiculous for people to believe the words and promises of a politician without first doing research into their past and what they have been known to stand for" Now, was that comment name calling or passing judgement, or rather making a true statement that it is completely ridiculous for someone to base their life's beliefs on something they actually know nothing about? I would like a response to my question from you because you are a mature individual who seems to have a mind of his own and second because i have always enjoyed our " debates ".

[geoff]

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/395803_10150537603304861_547789860_8678255_5478553 93_n.jpg

This picture says a lot to the point i am trying to make...

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix- there are very detailed Bible verses which will debunk all of your arguments. As far as ancient aliens goes....there is no more tangible proof of their existence than tangible proof for God. Its people these days not able to explain a phenomenon and filled in the blanks. By the way, i too am tatted up and lost faith in the church and mainstream Christianity...i personally believe it has become a former shadow of the church founded by Christ and continued by the Apostles.

This is usually the reasons Atheist and Christians get up in arms when arguing. You cant use the bible as a source of information when trying to prove the bible's validity.

" i dont believe pigs can fly " Christian - "but the bible says pigs can fly". The whole idea is that people dont believe the bible, so using the bible to prove anything will just make you spin your wheels. The ancient aliens show is using tangible evidence you could go view personally if you wanted, to explain their points.

I'm willing to listen to a christian try to convince me, but need more evidence than the bible. I can convince you that people are bulletproof and can walk on the ceiling if you let me use the Matrix trilogy as a reference.

[Sinfix_15]

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/395803_10150537603304861_547789860_8678255_5478553 93_n.jpg

This picture says a lot to the point i am trying to make...

the picture would be more accurate if one baby said to the other " hey, when we're born, our mom is gonna have 4 arms, lazer eyes and the ability to summon dragons to defend us, just have faith"

[geoff]

My reference to Biblical passages was not to " prove" God but rather to debunk your 15 mary story and " playing God ". I am not trying to convince anyone to believe in Christianity...if you want a solid argument about the issue i am more than willing to meet anyone up and talk in person. The point of this thread is to see what others believe and why. The picture i posted is perfect as it is, it represents humanity in a contained space( our own short life spans ) with limited knowledge of our surroundings( for anyone to say "we" have it all figured out is ridiculous) trying to explain something that is beyond us and that we could not possibly even begin to comprehend in detail. Science likes the explanation of the Big Bang yet it is giving way to more detailed models with even less evidence...i.e. multi-verse theory. The theories that have begun to surface almost seem as if they should belong in a sci-fi blockbuster hit. Science is forever changing and always will as more men do more calculations and we learn more about ourselves and surroundings.

[geoff]

So sinfix, i ask you, what do you believe in and why?

[Sinfix_15]

So sinfix, i ask you, what do you believe in and why?

I believe that neither myself or anyone else has any idea about the afterlife and that anything said in relation to it is nothing more than a guess. I believe that Christianity's grip on the population cripples our growth collectively. Sure it's great that Christianity spreads a message for people to have good moral character, but we dont need these people making or influencing decisions for Government. For all the talk about faith and willpower, i think Christians show their true doubt when they constantly try to remove the choice from the individual. If you're a Christian and you dont want to have an abortion, drink beer, smoke weed, or watch pornography.... then dont. You dont need laws against it. The laws Christians want put into place are to govern non-Christians like myself. Make your choices, let others make there choices.

Christianity, for all it's merit... is equally as forceful as the other "extremist" religions that go to war over their beliefs. I want to share the world with you. You (Christians) do not share that sentiment.

What do i believe in? in a word...... Freedom.


Me personally, i dont see a difference in these 2 pictures.

http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com/The%20Holy%20Crusades%20MMX%20copy.jpg
http://www.warisboring.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/al_qaeda2.jpg

[geoff]

I didn't ask why you don't believe in Christianity, there are COUNTLESS reasons why one should stay away from the " church " these days. I agree with you to an extent, Many evil deeds have been done in the name of some deity or another. But if you look back in history, the " modern" christian faith is no where even similar to the first established christian church. Your statements almost made you sound like you should be campaigning lol...just saying....so in essence, you said that to have ideas about the afterlife is just a guess. Does that mean that you don't support the atheistic belief that there is nothing after death?

[NaNissan]

Geoff no man can explain to you the answers you seek, man has faults thats why the bible should be considered for what it is a very good book of thoughts that man has come up with over the years to explain what they thought happened. No different from science today its a thought of man.
I do believe we were created by a force (god as some of you may call him) that our little minds cant begin to understand.

[Sinfix_15]

I didn't ask why you don't believe in Christianity, there are COUNTLESS reasons why one should stay away from the " church " these days. I agree with you to an extent, Many evil deeds have been done in the name of some deity or another. But if you look back in history, the " modern" christian faith is no where even similar to the first established christian church. Your statements almost made you sound like you should be campaigning lol...just saying....so in essence, you said that to have ideas about the afterlife is just a guess. Does that mean that you don't support the atheistic belief that there is nothing after death?

i didnt really chose the title "atheist", that's one that is applied to me. I dont follow the beliefs of anyone else. I believe what i believe simply because i believe it. I dont know if there's an afterlife or not. It would be nice if there was. I like the "good parts" of all religions, but i dont believe in any of them. When i see a christian that really walks the walk and represents his/her faith with good character (Tebow for example), i respect that person, even though i dont share his/her beliefs. My only issue with any religion is when it directly effects my life or something i want to do or feel i have the right to do.

I would like to believe in a God and an afterlife, but i cant force myself to do it. When i watch movies, i wish that the super heroes were real too, but i cant bring myself to believe in it without any proof or logical explanation. Theoretically speaking, if Jesus came down from heaven and held a press conference. I would believe in him and follow the religion.

[geoff]

NaNissan- good answer, this has been the whole point of this thread...that whether one believes in God or the explanation science gives, it takes faith to believe in either one. But I find it surprising that the scientific explanation is taken as pure fact....

[Sinfix_15]

NaNissan- good answer, this has been the whole point of this thread...that whether one believes in God or the explanation science gives, it takes faith to believe in either one. But I find it surprising that the scientific explanation is taken as pure fact....

i think more people side with science because science is an open ended debate. If something new happens tomorrow, science will adjust and try to explain it. Christianity will always produce the same old "bible says so" or "have faith". Science is infallible because its fallible. Science can be wrong and correct it'self. The bible will always be the bible and is free and void of any question or judgment.

[geoff]

There has to be one single absolute truth though, would you not agree? There can not be more than one way that the universe began or how it was done, eventually there will be one universal truth just as there is a universal truth that gravity exists. What the "Christian" faith is, is one possible absolute truth....with time it will be either totally taken apart or completely proven ( according to the Bible, one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord). To base ones entire existence on an ever changing explanation and infallibility because it is fallible....that really confuses me. For me personally; to believe in a solid foundation, never changing, faith based answer and explanation is more than enough. I believe every word of the Bible as historical text as much as one would an american history book. It works for me because i can see it, study it, learn it, live it, and hold it. And to my knowledge, none of the claims of the Bible have ever been proven as completely false. They have been found suspicious and debated yes, but no evidence has ever been given to say 100% " that is pure fiction and never happened...here is the proof...". To each his or her own though....

[Sinfix_15]

There has to be one single absolute truth though, would you not agree? There can not be more than one way that the universe began or how it was done, eventually there will be one universal truth just as there is a universal truth that gravity exists. What the "Christian" faith is, is one possible absolute truth....with time it will be either totally taken apart or completely proven ( according to the Bible, one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord). To base ones entire existence on an ever changing explanation and infallibility because it is fallible....that really confuses me. For me personally; to believe in a solid foundation, never changing, faith based answer and explanation is more than enough. I believe every word of the Bible as historical text as much as one would an american history book. It works for me because i can see it, study it, learn it, live it, and hold it. And to my knowledge, none of the claims of the Bible have ever been proven as completely false. They have been found suspicious and debated yes, but no evidence has ever been given to say 100% " that is pure fiction and never happened...here is the proof...". To each his or her own though....

I agree with you, i would love a solid foundation to stand on. With that said, i'm not going to fabricate one just because i need it. Science understands that we dont have all the answers, may never have the answers and will always be seeking the answers.

Christianity claims to have all the answers, even though they have the extremely clever and manipulative disclaimer put in place called faith.

As the saying goes..... the dumbest person in the room is the one who thinks they know everything. Christianity closes the minds of many people when it tells them to stop seeking answers for the unexplainable and simply have faith. At one point in time, people thought the world was flat. Everything we knew up to that point, we couldnt prove otherwise. Someone kept seeking the answer and eventually found it. The answers we dont have today will eventually be found. I'm gonna side with the people who are still looking and not those who live their life based on a retranslated recollection of stories written by men.

[Sinfix_15]

Geoff, simple question of morality.

What would you do if someone raped your daughter?

[geoff]

I would take that man and beat the living $hit out of him. I believe in God but I am still human. I am expected to forgive, but im not perfect. True belief in God does not put down those that seek answers. The " church " would have you believe that we are to be blind following the blind. I believe God expects us to think rationally, to seek answers, and to be open minded; otherwise He would not have created us as intelligent beings. What I believe though, is that one must consider all possible truths and then take the time to personally invest in researching. I wonder how many people that say God does not exist have invested this time to actually search for Him. I wonder how many people actually have a problem with God or have a problem with the men and institution that has failed to represent Him?

[Sinfix_15]

I would take that man and beat the living $hit out of him. I believe in God but I am still human. I am expected to forgive, but im not perfect. True belief in God does not put down those that seek answers. The " church " would have you believe that we are to be blind following the blind. I believe God expects us to think rationally, to seek answers, and to be open minded; otherwise He would not have created us as intelligent beings. What I believe though, is that one must consider all possible truths and then take the time to personally invest in researching. I wonder how many people that say God does not exist have invested this time to actually search for Him. I wonder how many people actually have a problem with God or have a problem with the men and institution that has failed to represent Him?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Exodus 21:7-11 - When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.


Deuteronomy 22:23-24 - If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Can a Christian be a Christian without believing in the entire bible?

[geoff]

Yes, the scriptures you listed above are Old Testament. They were the laws that the Jews as a people, society, and culture followed. Much like the laws that govern our very own society. The New Testament or " New Covenant" does away with the law, " as law did not bring forth life, but rather death". Jesus new covenant with man was to follow the laws of those put in positions of government authority, but to also follow two basic spiritual laws that in themselves hold all the commandments and amendments of the Mosaic Law...." Love thy God with all thine heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love thy neighbor". You point back to Mosaic Law as ridiculous or non relevant yet there are still laws in the books in the U.S.A that forbid spitting on the street.....

[Sinfix_15]

Yes, the scriptures you listed above are Old Testament. They were the laws that the Jews as a people, society, and culture followed. Much like the laws that govern our very own society. The New Testament or " New Covenant" does away with the law, " as law did not bring forth life, but rather death". Jesus new covenant with man was to follow the laws of those put in positions of government authority, but to also follow two basic spiritual laws that in themselves hold all the commandments and amendments of the Mosaic Law...." Love thy God with all thine heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love thy neighbor". You point back to Mosaic Law as ridiculous or non relevant yet there are still laws in the books in the U.S.A that forbid spitting on the street.....


There has to be one single absolute truth though, would you not agree? There can not be more than one way that the Bible is translated. How can we have faith in something that changes at it's own convenience? The old testament evolved to exist. The bible as it was written ceased to be accepted by man. The "institution" then changed the Bible to conform to the masses that they still wished to manipulate. Jesus wasnt alive to make this decision, who gave the authority and why should i value their word or judgement more than any other man?

[geoff]

There is one absolute truth as far as Biblical interpretation goes. If you are not a scholar of the Bible then I wouldn't expect you to understand. The Old Testament did not " evolve " to fit the ever changing morality of men....Jesus did not have to authorize a rewriting of it. He was and is the complete fulfillment of Mosaic Law and abolished it when He died on the cross and rose again. The "Law" was needed to continue civilization but itself did not give freedom nor justify the man. The Old Testament was full of prophecy of one that would be born to due away with the old kingdom and bring in the new....Jesus was this promised "Christ" who did away with the "Law" that bound men and brought death and instead gave them freedom, life, and justice in the form of the "Law of Grace". The basic message outlined throughout the scriptures has not changed my friend. That can clearly be seen as ancient manuscripts have been discovered that show this. What has changed in the Bible is not translation but rather application.

[CptWitwiki]

you talk about those who blindly follow Darwin as if they are "utterly ridiculous," however did you take into account that his theory is proven, and that he, himself, was a christian. his theory was not intended to say that God doesn't exist but rather explains several natural phenomenon and supports god as a generous creator. God created the earth and allowed it to take its course, he gave us the ability to evolve over time. Because if you believe blindly that God created up in our current form, then why did he give us a blind spot in our eyes but not give one to the squid? does he love the squid more than he loves us? also, you are an intelligent designer such as God, do you use the same materials to create man as you use to create several other animals? would you use the same materials to create a tank and a plane? no it doesnt make sense he would have made us perfect. Also, the bible says that to get into heaven you must accept Jesus as you lord and savior... correct? well what about all those who don't believe in Jesus because they were born in another part of the world are they condemned to hell just for where they were born?
i believe that God and science are both very real, i just dont believe in the Bible bc it was written by man and as sinfix said stories get embellished over time. To say that science is wrong is a silly statement while it is not all 100% correct some of the things are backed with clear evidence.

[geoff]

Is evolution scientific fact? what about the so called " missing link" ? I never said i don't believe in science...after all, there are factual natural laws that govern our universe. How do you know that people in other parts of the world have not heard about Jesus? Faith in Christ is not something that is only practiced in the western hemisphere....or would you like me to give you tangible proof of this before you believe? Once again let me highlight my point so it is clear...."What has changed in the Bible is not translation but rather application."

[.blank cd]

Evolution is based on scientific fact, yes

[geoff]

http://www.christiangrounds.com/images/christian-map.jpg

here you go, it would be highly suspect to say that the name, teachings, and practice of faith in Jesus has not been spread to every culture at some point in time. Now, whether they accept to believe or not it entirely up to them....how will they be judged? I honestly can't answer that as I myself am not God and can not save nor condemn a mans soul.

[CptWitwiki]

how do you know that the translation hasnt changed, and yes evolution is fact. im not saying that we came from the sea necessarily as it says up there that we were not created in our current form, and there are fossils that prove that we have changed over time. I didnt say that they havent heard of Jesus, i said that they were born somewhere where that is not a common religion, but bc your bible is 100% fact every jew, every muslim, every buddhist, everyone who isnt a christian is going to hell. if thats the case you worship a vengeful, spiteful God that I would want no part of. you accuse those who dont believe in your religion of being narrow minded but you are also being narrow minded

[geoff]

.Blank cd- I didn't ask if evolution was based on fact, i asked is the " theory" of evolution been proven as indisputable cold, hard, proven FACT?

[CptWitwiki]

again, i never said that they hadnt heard of him. that would be like saying because youre a christian you have never heard of buddha thats just silly.

[.blank cd]

Short answer = Yes. Thats what evolutionary biologists would tell you

[CptWitwiki]

i think you should read the book into the Jungle and actually read what Darwin's theory is. because i think you are under the misconception that Darwin was saying that there is no God and that we just appeared one day.

[Sinfix_15]

There is one absolute truth as far as Biblical interpretation goes. If you are not a scholar of the Bible then I wouldn't expect you to understand. The Old Testament did not " evolve " to fit the ever changing morality of men....Jesus did not have to authorize a rewriting of it. He was and is the complete fulfillment of Mosaic Law and abolished it when He died on the cross and rose again. The "Law" was needed to continue civilization but itself did not give freedom nor justify the man. The Old Testament was full of prophecy of one that would be born to due away with the old kingdom and bring in the new....Jesus was this promised "Christ" who did away with the "Law" that bound men and brought death and instead gave them freedom, life, and justice in the form of the "Law of Grace". The basic message outlined throughout the scriptures has not changed my friend. That can clearly be seen as ancient manuscripts have been discovered that show this. What has changed in the Bible is not translation but rather application.

There's more loopholes in the bible than there is in the tax code. There's 143 direct contradictions in the bible. Everything leads you in a circle. The only answer it gives to your questions is that you shouldnt be looking for answers. It's clever manipulation based on fear and greed.

Need a nap now............ nothing puts me to sleep like breaking out bible verses.

[geoff]

Evolution is not scientific Fact my friends, other wise it would be "scientific LAW" much like gravity. There are parts that are factual and parts that cannot be observed...i.e. "macro-evolution". Im not saying evolution is a lie, im saying that it itself in no way shape or form replaces nor explains God or the origin of life.

Now ofcourse the Bible translation has changed, its been translated into english, spanish, italian, ect......BUT the message of salvation echoed throughout it has not changed. How do I know this? Ancient manuscripts dating thousands of years old written way before the first " official" canonized Bible that was commissioned a few centuries even after the time of the apostles and Jesus. Then you have writings not only of the apostles and their disciples but of other roman, greek, and jewish scholars that were actually threatened by the " Jesus movement ". The government at the time thought of this movement as a rebellion and did its best to try and crush it...or do you doubt the history books that detail this as the Roman persecution of Christians? They saw that they could not destroy it, so they followed the basic idea of " if you can't beat them, join them". But what they did was to change the application of the bible. They gave themselves divine authority in the form of a "pope" and appointed "bishops". It was not the message that was corrupt but the application. Much like the government in the United States. The Constitution is no longer seen as literally to be followed but rather in the " spirit of the message" in which case amendments can be made by men today ( not the founding fathers) as to what still applies and what does not. Does that make the Constitution then invalid?

[geoff]

There's 143 direct contradictions in the bible.

please do give me one example of this and why and where it is condradicting

[CptWitwiki]

ok, so because there are small parts of evolution can not be proven it is obviously not true but so much of the bible cannot be proven and yet it is true? i really think that you need to rethink your logic. and you still havent come back with a answer to creating us with the same basic structure as he does dogs? now why would he do that? why would he give us a blind spot and not the squid?

evolution is fact, we evolve to fit our environment. it may not be noticeable to the naked eye but it is there. you want to say that my beliefs are wrong because of tiny missing details, well when the bible is proven to all but a few tiny details i might agree to listen to it. until then it is just a book written and translated by men.

now is that to say that there is no truth in the bible and that over all it has a good message? no. i think that its message is good but its no different than any other fairy tale with the exception of having billions of fans.

[.blank cd]

Evolution is not scientific Fact my friends, other wise it would be "scientific LAW" much like gravity. There are parts that are factual and parts that cannot be observed...i.e. "macro-evolution". Im not saying evolution is a lie, im saying that it itself in no way shape or form replaces nor explains God or the origin of life.Then you clearly don't understand the definition of scientific law, or scientific fact.

[CptWitwiki]

...

[.blank cd]

Once again, its the definitions of these words that people of faith like to "simplify". Evolution is a scientific fact and theory based on the text book definition of the words fact and theory. By changing the definition of the word "theory" into "something like a guess that hasnt been proven" makes evolution sound like it doesnt exist. Theory does not mean "something like a guess that hasnt been proven". This is far from the actual definition. Scientific Law is another word they like to simplify. Law does not mean "A theory with better supporting evidence". A theory will always be a theory, and a law will always be a law

By the way, the Law of Gravity has been replaced by Reletivity.

[geoff]

Main Entry: scientific law
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met; also, a formal statement about such a phenomenon; also called natural law



Main Entry: scientific fact
Part of Speech: n
Definition: any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has not been refuted
Example: The structure of a cell membrane is considered a scientific fact.

Yes, since there are missing parts to the theory that are either assumed, filled in, or ignored i would say that it is not cold, hard, fact! I didn't say the Bible should be taken by all as hard fact, i said for me personally that is how I view it.


and you still havent come back with a answer to creating us with the same basic structure as he does dogs? now why would he do that? why would he give us a blind spot and not the squid? I am not God, nor am i an expert in genetics, but from research i have done, the human body is perfectly suitable for the present environment that we live in. To me, if WE are perfectly equipt to live on our planet, would God have not done a perfect job? Same goes for any living species on this planet, they are all perfectly equipt to survive their environment and what they need to have life and reproduce.

You can believe in evolution, that is your choice. I too, to an extent, believe in natural selection and adaptation to ones environment....BUT even the FACTS ( i use that term very loosely) do not provide an explanation of why or how the universe originated.

[.blank cd]

On the other hand, we have the word "conjecture" which is an idea that is unproven, but is thought to be true and has yet to be disproven. God, Jesus, and creation science fit into this definition

[geoff]

There are FACTS and LAW that are indisputable...for example....one day everything that lives, dies. There is a sun in the sky that produces life giving light. There is always an effect to every cause and the effect can not come before the cause. Humans require water, oxygen, and a food source to survive. These are all very known FACTS and to argue against them would be foolish and you would be labeled as insane or ignorant. Evolution is disputable and therefore can not be considered as 100% infallible truth.

[.blank cd]

Yes, since there are missing parts to the theory that are either assumed, filled in, or ignored i would say that it is not cold, hard, fact! I didn't say the Bible should be taken by all as hard fact, i said for me personally that is how I view it.
There is no missing parts to evolution theory. Nothing is filled in or assumed. There is tested and untested. Simple as that.


You can believe in evolution, that is your choice. I too, to an extent, believe in natural selection and adaptation to ones environment....BUT even the FACTS ( i use that term very loosely) do not provide an explanation of why or how the universe originated.This part in bold has nothing to do with evolution. We call this "abiogenesis". The study of the origin of life

[geoff]

Label what you want, "evolution" and " the big bang" are taught as fact yet they are not. Neither one offers a clear explanation of why or how.

[CptWitwiki]

If we are perfectly suited to our current environment why do we get sick? Why do we have diseases?

[.blank cd]

Evolution is disputable and therefore can not be considered as 100% infallible truth.There are very few 100% infalible truths in science, if any.

[geoff]

i.e. " missing link". you stand corrected sir. Then please answer my original question. what do you believed made/caused/created the known universe and life?

[.blank cd]

Label what you want, "evolution" and " the big bang" are taught as fact yet they are not. Neither one offers a clear explanation of why or how.Because evolution is a scientific fact. Evolution exists. Evolution is not Abiogenesis, and abiogenesis is not evolution. Im not labeling it, this is what it is.

[geoff]

If we are perfectly suited to our current environment why do we get sick? Why do we have diseases?

Man made viruses, bacteria, ect aside; we are created perfectly to survive in our environments and to reproduce. That is not to say that we are invincible and can not die. oh but the belief in God takes care of that too, our souls are eternal and will not cease to exist. You will obviously dismiss this but you can not deny that everything has a beginning and an end, and we as a species are suited to follow this course of nature

[geoff]

Blank cd- you still didn't provide an answer to the original question. What do you believe and why?

[.blank cd]

i.e. " missing link". you stand corrected sir. Then please answer my original question. what do you believed made/caused/created the known universe and life?When you talk about "missng link" are you talking about transitional fossils?

[CptWitwiki]

I never said God didn't create ... I believe he created life but not "Adam and Eve" ... and man created disease how did you come up with that conclusion?

[.blank cd]

Until we come along with a better theory, I have to believe the big bang was the origin of the universe. as far as life on earth, Im gonna go with the chemical origin of life theory

[geoff]

There is no missing parts to evolution theory. Nothing is filled in or assumed. There is tested and untested. Simple as that.

Yes i was referring to the transitional fossils. And what about evolution that cannot be observed? i.e. "macro-evolution"


I never said God didn't create ... I believe he created life but not "Adam and Eve" ... and man created disease how did you come up with that conclusion? Every religious belief has their god(s), deity, power creating man. How do you believe God created everything else...except man? Yes men have created diseases in labs...common knowledge. You didn't answer my question...can you deny that man is sufficient in his role of living, surviving, and being able to reproduce?


Until we come along with a better theory, I have to believe the big bang was the origin of the universe. as far as life on earth, Im gonna go with the chemical origin of life theory This theory is a process or a means by which something happened...yet it still does not tell why the process happened nor does it tell what the "singularity" was or why it was there. Neither does it find itself on a solid foundation as it is not known for sure if the universe is homogeneous or not. see: hawkins' work on an inhomogeneous universe.

[.blank cd]

Yes i was referring to the transitional fossils. And what about evolution that cannot be observed? i.e. "macro-evolution"What about transitional fossils do you not understand? Id be more than happy to explain them for you.

When you say "that cannot be observed", do you mean you yourself can't observe them? Because science can observe "macro-evolution"


This theory is a process or a means by which something happened...yet it still does not tell why the process happened nor does it tell what the "singularity" was or why it was there. Neither does it find itself on a solid foundation as it is not known for sure if the universe is homogeneous or not. see: hawkins' work on an inhomogeneous universe.Really sounds like you're lumping all your theories into one theory, which creationists often do to try and discredit science.

[CptWitwiki]

I said he create, not everything ... you added the everything I believe he created the first life and let nature take its course .... if he created us perfect whydidnt he do it right the first time? We are not the original design .... ok some diseases may have been created but you say it as if all diseases were .created by man ...

[geoff]

Really sounds like you're lumping all your theories into one theory, which creationists often do to try and discredit science.
no, it is common knowledge that there are many different models of the big bang theory. Please give me an example of one that actually explains why the big bang happened or what put it into motion. Or better yet, explain how all this infinite matter and temperature came to be in the first place. As far as I knew, it was common knowledge and scientific law that something can not come from nothing, or are you trying to debate on this?:no:....so if science falls short on giving an explanation I am truly curious as to what you personally believe.


I said he create, not everything ... you added the everything I believe he created the first life and let nature take its course .... if he created us perfect whydidnt he do it right the first time? We are not the original design .... ok some diseases may have been created but you say it as if all diseases were .created by man ...
What do you mean " why didn't He create us perfect the first time?" If we were not the original design then please inform me on what was.:thinking: And I said put aside diseases, bacteria, virus, ect...created by man....it is common knowledge that man kind has had an enormous impact on the world around us and that the environment surrounding the first man and woman is different than that of today.

[geoff]

I have to say, I am really enjoying all the different input and the intelligent debate going on here. I have presented valid arguments to " christians " about why they do certain things and such...only to be written off as a heretic and that they hope i find what im looking for. Its nice to be able to speak openly to you all about my own beliefs and yours.

[.blank cd]

no, it is common knowledge that there are many different models of the big bang theory.

You do know there is only one model of the big bang theory, right? Do you know of another that scientists havent come up with yet? I'll go into gravitational singularities and relativity when I get back home

[Bacon]

This entire conversation could have stayed in the other thread about "God". IMO, science has nothing to do with religion or the belief of "God."

[quickdodge®]

I would like a response to my question from you because you are a mature individual who seems to have a mind of his own and second because i have always enjoyed our " debates ".

I apologize, geoff, but for some reason, I can't respond. My mind is drawing a blank trying to come up with a response that doesn't make me sound like an idiot, but also not copying from Wikipedia, lolol. I know what I want to say, but I just can't come up with it on keyboard. I'll situate it later this evening and hopefully come up with an answer that we can chew on. Later, QD.

[CptWitwiki]

ok a few things you said that we are perfect for reproduction, that is a 100% false statement. numerous children are aborted naturally aka miscarriage also every child is born premature because the birth canal has not caught up with us and if we were to be born when 100% mature then we couldnt come out without a c-section
some our predecessors were born with enlarged jaws with flat teeth because and ridges on the top of their skulls which indicates that they were probably primarily if not entirely vegetarian their are fossils to back that up. that is the only example that i can come up with off the top of my head but there are several predecessors to our current form.

[geoff]

QD- i am very much looking forward to it.

.blank cd- lets put this debate of "evolution" aside. Now please answer the question i have asked many times to you....what are your beliefs?

CptWitwiki- Honestly man come on, there are always many factors as to what could complicate a birth, ect.....if the human species or any species for that matter where not perfect for reproduction then all known life on earth would have ceased to exist long ago. Please show me some data that clearly shows that these other forms were genetically our ancestors...not cousins or distant relatives, i mean direct.

[CptWitwiki]

if we were perfect for birth reproduction there would be any complications. your arguments are those of a ignorant person. if you want to have an argument learn more about the other side before you start.
we are not perfect for birth, we are born premature. fact. we have adapted to giving birth, by giving birth early.

there is scientific proof, you demand proof for what i state. but you have nor does any one the slightest proof that the bible is at all factual. so when you provide proof so will i

[Sinfix_15]

please do give me one example of this and why and where it is condradicting



1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13

20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7

27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13

28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15

29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20

30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1

34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1

37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6

38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14

40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2

41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34

47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32

49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21

52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35

55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9

56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10

57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39



58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19

59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6

60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15

61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9

62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27

63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8

64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21

65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23

66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36

67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6

68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16

69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39

70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2

71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20

72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24

73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10

74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26

75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38

76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15

77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40

78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7

79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18

80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7

81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1

82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10

83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1

84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5

85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5

86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>

87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22

88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49

89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17

90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51

91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14

92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8

93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17

94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32

95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2

96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16

97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13

98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5

99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29

100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8

101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1

102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5

103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5

104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12

105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4

106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25

107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44

[Sinfix_15]

108. Christ is equal with God
John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
Christ is not equal with God
John 14:28/ Matt 24:36

109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5

110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Matt 5:17-19

111. Christ's mission was peace
Luke 2:13,14
Christ's mission was not peace
Matt 10:34
112. Christ received not testimony from man
John 5:33,34
Christ did receive testimony from man
John 15:27

113. Christ's witness of himself is true.
John 8:18,14
Christ's witness of himself is not true.
John 5:31

114. Christ laid down his life for his friends
John 15:13/ John 10:11
Christ laid down his life for his enemies
Rom 5:10

115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 19:7
It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 18:31
116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Ex 20:5
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Ezek 18:20

117. Man is justified by faith alone
Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone
James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13

118. It is impossible to fall from grace
John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39
It is possible to fall from grace
Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21

119. No man is without sin
1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10
Christians are sinless
1 John 3: 9,6,8

120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16
There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14

121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world
Prov 11:31
Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world
Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10

122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind
Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20
Endless misery the portion of all mankind
Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2

123. The Earth is to be destroyed
2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11
The Earth is never to be destroyed
Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4

124. No evil shall happen to the godly
Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13
Evil does happen to the godly
Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7

125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly
Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/
Job 42:12
Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly
Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17

126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing
Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/
Prov 15:6
Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward
Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/
Luke 6:24

127. The Christian yoke is easy
Matt 11:28,29,30
The Christian yoke is not easy
John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8

128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness
Gal 5:22
The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury
Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11

129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked
Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20
Longevity denied to the wicked
Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17

130. Poverty a blessing
Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5
Riches a blessing
Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12
Neither poverty nor riches a blessing
Prov 30:8,9

131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment
Prov 3:13,17
Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow
Eccl 1:17,18

132. A good name is a blessing
Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1
A good name is a curse
Luke 6:26
133. Laughter commended
Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15
Laughter condemned
Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4

134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness
Prov 22:15
There is no remedy for foolishness
Prov 27:22

135. A fool should be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:5
A fool should not be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:4

136. Temptation to be desired
James 1:2
Temptation not to be desired
Matt 6:13
137. Prophecy is sure
2 Pet 1:19
Prophecy is not sure
Jer 18:7-10

138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years
Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10
Man's life is but seventy years
Ps 90:10

139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast
Gen 9:2
The fear of man is not upon the lion
Prov 30:30

140. Miracles a proof of divine mission
Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31
Miracles not a proof of divine mission
Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19

141. Moses was a very meek man
Num 12:3
Moses was a very cruel man
Num 31:15,17

142. Elijah went up to heaven
2 Kings 2:11
None but Christ ever ascended into heaven
John 3:13

143. All scripture is inspired
2 Tim 3:16
Some scripture is not inspired
1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17

[Bacon]

That's a lot of contradictions.

Sent from my Thunderbolt 4G using Tapatalk.

[Sinfix_15]

Lets for a moment pretend that God is 100% real. What type of person would he be? The Bible says God is just several times.

All sins carry the same punishment. 1 sin carries the same punishment as 1000 sins. If you sin once and die without forgiveness, you spend an eternity in hell. If you never sin, but never get saved, you spend an eternity in hell. If you're an infant, born in sin, not old enough to read or pick up a bible and you die, you spend an eternity in hell. This is justice?

So, given a time frame where eternity exists, our lifetime would be about a billion times smaller than a second in a year. For these small infractions, we spend an eternity in hell.

Rape is forgivable. Murder is forgivable. Questioning God is not. For my contributions in this forum thread i may never be forgiven. But every serial rapist or murderer on death row is still in God's good graces.

If the United States followed in God's examples, we'd be sentenced to multiple life sentences for jay walking. Makes North Korea sound like a paradise. "In God we trust" Not i.

[Sinfix_15]

Also ironic that "one nation under god" that "in god we trust" has laws against torturing prisoners. Wouldnt God torture said prisoners for all of eternity? Makes water boarding seem like a vacation.

The scary part about this nonsense is that it's breached all levels of humanity. The leader of our nation believes in this deity. A new president will be elected based on their belief of this deity.

[geoff]

Sinfix_15: Of all those "contradictions" not one of them stood true. Why? Because I opened my King James version Bible and guess what.....it doesn't even say anything close to what you " list ". Nice try bro, but next time you copy and paste from someone else's site I suggest you seriously look into it first. You see you made my point exactly, you yourself have not taken time to research or even read the scriptures. Instead you probably typed " Bible contradictions" into google and copy/pasted someone else's claims yet you indeed believed them to be true. Most of those scriptures are examples of a certain man/point in time/lesson/ect and compared to a completely different man/point in time/lesson/ect...The Bible is written much like a story with a beginning, middle, and end. It flows start to finish and excuse the pun "evolves". You are trying to take one meaning and put it in different context to mean something completely different. Much how the "church" has done throughout the ages. You my friend are not qualified to be a biblical scholar nor critic if you have not read it page to page several times at the least. That is the weapon of " Bible bashers" they completely twist a scripture or pick and choose what suits them, then flips it around and says "ah ha, i told you its false!". Yet all one has to do is read the very same scripture to see that it was a lie. Try harder.

[geoff]

And yet again your own lack of biblical knowledge shows again. There is one unforgiveable sin, blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Which is to say, witnessing the power of God and denying it but going further to say it was done by the power of darkness not light. I.E. when they said Jesus cast out demons by power of the devil himself. Seriously man, if you are going to try and bash, atleast read some of it so you don't come off as ignorant.

Forgiveness is available to all, all who would seek it and all who ask for it. Infants are not judged like those with a mind capable of distinguishing right from wrong.

[geoff]

You do not realize, but all are found guilty under Gods' law. Does everyone think its fair? No, but God has the ultimate authority. He alone can condemn and He alone can pardon. Justice comes in when He paid your penalty on the cross, all you have to do is accept. If you turn your face from it then it is no ones fault but your own my good man.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix_15: Of all those "contradictions" not one of them stood true. Why? Because I opened my King James version Bible and guess what.....it doesn't even say anything close to what you " list ". Nice try bro, but next time you copy and paste from someone else's site I suggest you seriously look into it first. You see you made my point exactly, you yourself have not taken time to research or even read the scriptures. Instead you probably typed " Bible contradictions" into google and copy/pasted someone else's claims yet you indeed believed them to be true. Most of those scriptures are examples of a certain man/point in time/lesson/ect and compared to a completely different man/point in time/lesson/ect...The Bible is written much like a story with a beginning, middle, and end. It flows start to finish and excuse the pun "evolves". You are trying to take one meaning and put it in different context to mean something completely different. Much how the "church" has done throughout the ages. You my friend are not qualified to be a biblical scholar nor critic if you have not read it page to page several times at the least. That is the weapon of " Bible bashers" they completely twist a scripture or pick and choose what suits them, then flips it around and says "ah ha, i told you its false!". Yet all one has to do is read the very same scripture to see that it was a lie. Try harder.

So because the verses are summarized for a list theyre false? i took the time to read several in all translations and versions. It's not uncommon for biblical verses to be converted into "modern speak". The same bible verse you're writing off as "completely twisted" scripture, a christian book store would recommend to a teen because it's easier to read.

The reason christians have retort to this criticism is because they have the infinite loop holes to defend themselves with. If the bible says " the lord can jump higher than any man" then in another verse says " Lebron James can jump higher than the lord" the christian answer would be "God created man in his imagine, therefor Lebron is god, god can be all things and jump either high or low"

This method of manipulation has been perfected over 1000s of years. I certainly wont debate the effectiveness of it or argue that i'm mentally equip to contest it. It's structured to give a deadend to any question. The bible has an impenetrable force field of deception around it. It's not meant to be understood. That's why when you combine it with the fear of punishment and the prize of heaven, it's an extremely effective source of control. It's the same type of propaganda Bin Laden used to get people to crash planes into a building.

[geoff]

You are incredibly misled and understandably so. Like i said before, it takes no more than to search just a few of those scriptures you listed to show you have no personal knowledge of scripture. Not trying to insult you, its just the truth. When looking at scriptures and passages in the Bible, one can not simply take one certain example and run with it. You have to read the surrounding scriptures and the complete story that goes with it. Honestly my friend, take time to read and come up with your own opinion. You base your beliefs on what? Papers written by men you never read, studies you have never studied yourself, watching youtube videos? The weak mind, that is the one that is manipulated. It takes no more than to open your eyes and LOOK FOR YOURSELF to make an informed opinion. Many Christians have fallen victim to the sheep mentality as many atheists/agnostics have. I don't believe the Bible needs to broken down into simple terms and "preached" to the masses. The scriptures preach themselves.

[Sinfix_15]

And yet again your own lack of biblical knowledge shows again. There is one unforgiveable sin, blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Which is to say, witnessing the power of God and denying it but going further to say it was done by the power of darkness not light. I.E. when they said Jesus cast out demons by power of the devil himself. Seriously man, if you are going to try and bash, atleast read some of it so you don't come off as ignorant.

Forgiveness is available to all, all who would seek it and all who ask for it. Infants are not judged like those with a mind capable of distinguishing right from wrong.

how would i witness the power of god? I've been to church 12384984 times. Seen people run around, pass out, speak in tongues, ect... would this be witnessing of the "holy spirit" ? If so, ive seen it. still dont believe.

Where does it say infants are not judged like those with the mind capable of distinguishing right from wrong? and if this is true..... whats the big deal about abortion? why even call it abortion..... lets start opening up "send fetus' to heaven" clinics.

[Sinfix_15]

You are incredibly misled and understandably so. Like i said before, it takes no more than to search just a few of those scriptures you listed to show you have no personal knowledge of scripture. Not trying to insult you, its just the truth. When looking at scriptures and passages in the Bible, one can not simply take one certain example and run with it. You have to read the surrounding scriptures and the complete story that goes with it. Honestly my friend, take time to read and come up with your own opinion. You base your beliefs on what? Papers written by men you never read, studies you have never studied yourself, watching youtube videos? The weak mind, that is the one that is manipulated. It takes no more than to open your eyes and LOOK FOR YOURSELF to make an informed opinion. Many Christians have fallen victim to the sheep mentality as many atheists/agnostics have. I don't believe the Bible needs to broken down into simple terms and "preached" to the masses. The scriptures preach themselves.

You answer in the same method that i already claimed you would. You tell me to read for myself and call me ignorant because i dont read it the same way you do. No matter where this argument goes, what topics are brought up, what is quoted, or anything that is ever mentioned, you can apply that argument to EVERYTHING. Christians interpret the bible to mean what they want it to mean. Anyone who disagrees with the meaning is wrong. The bible is cleverly and PURPOSEFULLY made to be vague and misunderstood. That is the essence of manipulation. Anytime i read something "negative" about the bible, i check the authenticity of the quote and reread it from several sources. Obviously i dont trust bible quotes i'd read in a satanic bible. I always revert back to the original text and make a decision for myself. But......... ultimately..... as i already said previously...... if i dont see it the way you see it, im misunderstood.

[geoff]

It says the sins of the father are not passed on as sins of the son. Seriously, there are more than biblical implications of wrong doing with abortion. Im not calling you ignorant for reading something a different way, im saying your ignorant for criticizing something you obviously have not read in its entirety.

[Sinfix_15]

It says the sins of the father are not passed on as sins of the son. Seriously, there are more than biblical implications of wrong doing with abortion. Im not calling you ignorant for reading something a different way, im saying your ignorant for criticizing something you obviously have not read in its entirety.

Something on page 5 may say something that is later explained, re-said, canceled out, overruled, ect on page 250. It's not made to be "read in its entirety" and understood, its made to be vague and cover it's tracks.

So if a 17 year old girl with a scholarship to Yale is raped, she should have to carry that child?

[-EnVus-]

http://i43.tinypic.com/qradnd.jpg

[geoff]

Im sorry but you seem to have fallen victim to the " church". someone lied to you or did you wrong or someone you know. The church has done more harm than good it seems and im sorry that has skewed your vision of God. I apologize on their behalf my friend. As far as your scenario...I don't know, i cant judge that for i am not God. It is still a life, i feel abortion is wrong. If the child is not wanted then give it up for adoption, there are a lot of families that can not bare children...just my .002

[Sinfix_15]

Im sorry but you seem to have fallen victim to the " church". someone lied to you or did you wrong or someone you know. The church has done more harm than good it seems and im sorry that has skewed your vision of God. I apologize on their behalf my friend. As far as your scenario...I don't know, i cant judge that for i am not God. It is still a life, i feel abortion is wrong. If the child is not wanted then give it up for adoption, there are a lot of families that can not bare children...just my .002

well, what about the life that already exists? Child birth isnt exactly a pleasant experience, especially for someone who doesnt want to. Imagine carrying the child of someone who raped you for 9 months then going thru child birth and aftercare. Also, child birth can risk the life of the mother. It's not a 100% procedure. It's easy to sympathize with this example and most people do, but if you're going to accept that it's life altering for one person, you have to give the same consideration for any person. Given that it's clearly a judgment call, who better to make that judgment than the person giving birth? I dont want my life decisions in the hands of the government. Christians do because that is the only way to force their beliefs on others. Religion based laws are not ment to govern religious people, theyre made for the rest of us.

I understand what you're saying about their being a difference in the establishment church and God, but how does anyone know anything about God without the church? theyre the source. What you're saying is like saying... "i love bigmacs... but i chose not to get them from McDonalds". Can you have a relationship with God privately between just yourself and God? if so, that leaves a LOT of room for personal interpretation. Perhaps i can smoke, drink, and have multiple sex partners while still maintaining a sense of morality. I'm not a liar or a cheat, i dont steal, i've never been arrested, never been to jail. I would fit in at your church just fine. I literally dated the preacher's daughter for 8 years without them being aware of my lack of belief. Attended church functions, played softball and basketball in church sporting leagues. Dont have any problem mingling with christians in the least. A lot of christians are great people..... if you can get over that whole idea about them thinking you're going to burn in hell for an eternity.

[WhiteAccord]

God or any god at all is just another fad. Different god's arise in different parts of time. Pretty much explains why once the well worshiped Zeus, Athena, and other Greek Gods have all been forgotten(Unworshiped).

People who worship any deity today just need something to lay(Comfort zone, and the ability to forget mistakes made) on while they cant figure out what to do with their life or parts of their life. Any type of luck, chance, or miracle is based on probability, and for that unexpected discovery you make WE are hardwired to satisfy our question w/ a "simple answer". Pointing out that your "GOD" was the answer to your prayers, while really if you didnt settle w/ such a simple input and made a further investigation your answers could be answered with a logical sense.

Hypothetical Ex. Let's take the simplest base of human life today. A tribe of less than 100 people in an undiscovered location, praise a silver spoon that feel from the sky. They worship this spoon, and provided a ceremony to worship it's presence. A few days later rain falls continuously and their land is nourished, all hail the almighty silver spoon.

Religion can also be used as a way of controlling the mass.

Ex. King Henry the VII used the Holy Bible in the late 1480's to control the rule of the people of England from riots and violence.

I like how people are quoting from the bible, when the bible it self is re-written every year to adapt of our newly discoveries and developments. < Pretty much makes the perfect scam.

Unfortunately I come from a family full of catholics. I have read the bible many times, and I come to one conclusion and it is that I could do the exact same thing, and write a bullshit/REASONABLE story and say "GOD" came forth to me and we need to make these changes. Would you believe me?

Ex. The 10 Commandments - After Moses destroyed the tablets inscribed by God, he made Moses write new ones, just like the ones he had written himself. Although the original tablet was said to be broken, Oh let me write what someone else had written, but I can't provide the original. Just trust me on this... HAHAH

Religion to me is a joke. Usually followed by idiots(Referred to OP) in simple terms, but every one has their own opinion, which is also why our society will never dominate world peace due to the fact my God is better than your God.

BTW if you going to make an argument against my statement, please provide FACTS and not what someone else said :lmfao:

[nelson9995]

how would i witness the power of god? I've been to church 12384984 times. Seen people run around, pass out, speak in tongues, ect... would this be witnessing of the "holy spirit" ? If so, ive seen it. still dont believe.

Where does it say infants are not judged like those with the mind capable of distinguishing right from wrong? and if this is true..... whats the big deal about abortion? why even call it abortion..... lets start opening up "send fetus' to heaven" clinics.

I don't want to get into this too much I don't have the time or patience to sit here and debate with you guys... BUT, if that is all you have seen then you my friend have not experienced anything. I, IN PERSON... have seen an arm grow, a leg grow, demons casted out followed by black vomit...
I have seen many many more things in videos, and miracles my parents have seen IN PERSON... I believe them but I cannot use that as evidence I was not there.

95% of you will call me a liar/crazy lol who knows... but oh well there are thousands of videos on youtube with demonstrations of this but again you will all say they are edited... OH WELL... I just had to put in my 2 cents... I will follow the thread but will try to not post anymore since I am not too educated on the bible and have not read it myself... but I have seen WITH MY OWN 2 EYES what I have previously stated... I may not know much about bible but I have had experiences that have lead me to believe in God.

Many of you know witchcraft exists, black magic, etc... stop and think if there is a bad force, wouldn't there have to be a good force?

Take care guys

[TIGERJC]

I don't want to get into this too much I don't have the time or patience to sit here and debate with you guys... BUT, if that is all you have seen then you my friend have not experienced anything. I, IN PERSON... have seen an arm grow, a leg grow, demons casted out followed by black vomit...
I have seen many many more things in videos, and miracles my parents have seen IN PERSON... I believe them but I cannot use that as evidence I was not there.

95% of you will call me a liar/crazy lol who knows... but oh well there are thousands of videos on youtube with demonstrations of this but again you will all say they are edited... OH WELL... I just had to put in my 2 cents... I will follow the thread but will try to not post anymore since I am not too educated on the bible and have not read it myself... but I have seen WITH MY OWN 2 EYES what I have previously stated... I may not know much about bible but I have had experiences that have lead me to believe in God.

Many of you know witchcraft exists, black magic, etc... stop and think if there is a bad force, wouldn't there have to be a good force?

Take care guysI really hope you don't get the chance to reproduce.

[Sinfix_15]

I don't want to get into this too much I don't have the time or patience to sit here and debate with you guys... BUT, if that is all you have seen then you my friend have not experienced anything. I, IN PERSON... have seen an arm grow, a leg grow, demons casted out followed by black vomit...
I have seen many many more things in videos, and miracles my parents have seen IN PERSON... I believe them but I cannot use that as evidence I was not there.

95% of you will call me a liar/crazy lol who knows... but oh well there are thousands of videos on youtube with demonstrations of this but again you will all say they are edited... OH WELL... I just had to put in my 2 cents... I will follow the thread but will try to not post anymore since I am not too educated on the bible and have not read it myself... but I have seen WITH MY OWN 2 EYES what I have previously stated... I may not know much about bible but I have had experiences that have lead me to believe in God.

Many of you know witchcraft exists, black magic, etc... stop and think if there is a bad force, wouldn't there have to be a good force?

Take care guys

Comment is a little "out there" to give a big response to. Will keep it simple. Your eyes can lie to you. Ever been to a magic show? Is Chris Angel proof that God exists?

[geoff]

Sinfix-The issue of what a woman is to do with a child formed from the act of rape is a touchy one. I can't give you an answer for that, I'm not God and I can't/won't speak for how God sees that situation. We can call this one a stalemate. Yes you can have a personal relationship with just you and God, in fact He very much encourages it throughout the scriptures. As far as personal interpretation...when you actually pursue a one on one relationship with God, your eyes are opened to a different world. You serve out of love not condemnation as some churches preach. You don't see fire, brimstone, and death. Instead you see life, love, and peace. The mainstream church has lost its way, that explains all the different doctrines, beliefs, traditions, and denominations. There is but one "Church" and that is the body of Christ. It is more than four walls; it is an ideal, way of life, and a personal revelation of who God is. The deeper you go into the mind and heart of God the more you see changes in your own life. You will cease to smoke, drink, sleep around, ect not out of promise of hell but out of gratitude of love. Its almost like you stop those things because you wanna make God proud.

Nelson9995- I can't speak personally on the power of God you experienced as I was not present. I have not experienced the things you have, but I have seen enough of my own to know that the person I pray too listens and is very involved with my life. Whatever you have experienced remember this, the bible says to test every spirit to see if from God or not.

WhiteAccord- I'm not here to champion any "religion". Religion is a man made institution that has become extremely corrupt. I do believe in God, I believe in the Bible, and I'm first to admit i have many faults and vices. I can not give you solid proof of anything. I can give you personal testimony of what I have personally experienced, I can point to certain studies done by men smarter than me that would suggest the presence of one "All Mighty", and i can give very peculiar examples of things in the world that also point towards an " intelligent designer ". But all of it would be for naught, as you clearly would dismiss everything presented due to the comment of you calling me an idiot. For some, no ammount of evidence or "proof" would ever be enough and that is your own choice.

[Sinfix_15]

Sinfix-The issue of what a woman is to do with a child formed from the act of rape is a touchy one. I can't give you an answer for that, I'm not God and I can't/won't speak for how God sees that situation. We can call this one a stalemate. Yes you can have a personal relationship with just you and God, in fact He very much encourages it throughout the scriptures. As far as personal interpretation...when you actually pursue a one on one relationship with God, your eyes are opened to a different world. You serve out of love not condemnation as some churches preach. You don't see fire, brimstone, and death. Instead you see life, love, and peace. The mainstream church has lost its way, that explains all the different doctrines, beliefs, traditions, and denominations. There is but one "Church" and that is the body of Christ. It is more than four walls; it is an ideal, way of life, and a personal revelation of who God is. The deeper you go into the mind and heart of God the more you see changes in your own life. You will cease to smoke, drink, sleep around, ect not out of promise of hell but out of gratitude of love. Its almost like you stop those things because you wanna make God proud.



I respect your opinion and agree with a lot of aspects of it. I'm 100% against the "church", but im not opposed to the idea of God. If im walking down the street and i see an old lady drop her money out of her purse, i have a feeling inside that's its wrong to take it. I have a conscious towards a lot of bad things, but a lot of "sins" i feel no remorse for what so ever. When i have 3-4 beers with my dinner at applebees... not one fiber of my being feels ive done anything wrong. When i light up a cigar in my living room, same thing. I'm not married, never been married...... and outside of the usual "she looked better last night" regrets... i have no sense of wrong doing from casual relationships. That's what im talking about when i say the interpretation is different. When i imagine an all powerful God that's capable of creating worlds, i just dont see him caring about what i eat, drink or do with my genitals as long as i'm not harming or deceiving other human beings. It's not a matter of feeling shamed by activities but not caring because i dont believe in God. If i did believe in God, i dont think my life would change too much, at least not in terms of restrictions. I feel i have a good sense of right and wrong, but my idea of right and wrong differs greatly from the scripture. I dont know if there's a God or not, but even leaving the idea open that there is.... i dont feel anything i do would shame him.

[-EnVus-]

Whats sad is Ive never met or talked to anyone that i know of that is Atheist. Then you log on to ImportAtlanta and find a bunch lurking around...

[Sinfix_15]

Whats sad is Ive never met or talked to anyone that i know of that is Atheist. Then you log on to ImportAtlanta and find a bunch lurking around...

we dont walk around introducing ourselves like "hello, my name is Anthony, i'm an atheist". We're passive because we know that we can accept you, but dont expect the same in return.

[-EnVus-]

we dont walk around introducing ourselves like "hello, my name is Anthony, i'm an atheist". We're passive because we know that we can accept you, but dont expect the same in return.
I accept anyone just as god does.....Before his judgement is done.

[nelson9995]

I really hope you don't get the chance to reproduce.

why is this?


and to all...
and we are all entitled to our own opinions... I believe in one thing and can't make you all believe it. I just stated my experiences. I respect all of your opinions.

[geoff]

Sinfix- you are alright in my book. I can not say what your own personal convictions should be or judge you for them. I fully believe in God yet i suffer from the " sin" issue. I have struggled a long time with addiction to ciggarrettes. Besides the fact that they are killing me ( fact ) i feel no wrong in it. I too enjoy a nice beer or get completely wasted when i occasionally go out. I too enjoy the touch of a woman. Does that make it not sin? No, the issue still remains that i am not judged based on the morality of my peers nor my own personal morality. I am judged base on the actions of God in flesh, who was born to humanity, raised with temptation, and righteously took on a punishment that His morality did not deserve. If you did believe in God, maybe you would be interested to find out the "truth" about Him. Maybe you would search for Him and find Him. Maybe you would change your views of what is right and wrong. I do not know, each individuals relationship with God is just that, "individual" and unique. The mainstream "church" would label me a "hyprocrit","heathen", and condemn me to hell. Maybe I am these things. But one thing for certain i can say is that i have never pretended to be someone i am not. I have never proclaimed myself "righteous" and passed judgement or looked down on others. I embrace my weakness in the flesh and know that there is nothing good in my flesh that could make me "holy". A believer is made holy only by the presence of God in their lives. He alone gives the strength and conviction to overcome the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life. I am human, I am weak, I am a sinner, But i have a good heart and know what i am and dont try to hide it. I know for certain that i need more God in my life and less me. I hope sinfix that some day some kind of longing for more would start a fire in your heart and set you down a path to find the Creator. Until then i can only say take care, live life fully cuz you only get one shot, and may God draw you to Him some day before you take your last breath. God bless you, whether you believe or not;)