smoking atand during vtec only!!!!

[turbob20]

i have built another ls vtec motor only 500 miles right now and finally ran into the problem of smoke in vtec. did compression test got 240 across the board with pr3s and leakdown test came out good! is it my valve guides or seals maybe? nothing building up on plugs as they stay a tan color and electrodes stay clean. smoke is blackish grey and some blue cause it uses a little oil at 500 miles used about a half quart and just did my second oil change for the 500 mile change for break in and some times it smokes some times not as much. ive done lots of ls vtecs since 2003 never had one smoke like this in vtec. done a usual beat on it then vacum pulls letting it gear down all this time and only did a hone on the block and block was still in exellent shape just went to ls v with b16 head and pr3s and didnt smoke with the pr4 ls pistons and head before. theres no leaks. head was resurfaced out of 99 si with 99xxx miles on it but it only had a puff at vtec engagement but the head sat for a couple years. also on a block with no breather box so i have a catch can an drilled the valve cover for the pcv valve just like the ls one was, no oil in catch can yet, one line melted a bit but i dont think it would suck together as vacum is almost non existant in vtec rpms i think. sorry so long but trying to cover all i can,any help is appreciated!

[Tech5]

when its being only in vtec I would bet its the rings , as it's when you build compression is when it smokes. Valve seals will tend to smoke at first start up or even at idle depending how bad they are.

[Tech5]

what rings did you use and did you gap them?

If you use OEM honda ones NO need to gap

Also did you put the rings on right and clocked?

[*EFilliated*]

im gonna say valve stem seals from personal experience

[turbob20]

nippon racing rings and i clocked em like i usually do top ring a little off from the exhaust center away from the thrust axis on the piston side skirt second a little off the intake but 180 from the first, oil control rings about 90 degrees apart. ive built a but load of these things but i used the same gsr head for years on mine. swapped that ride got another with ls swap and here im am but with a b16 head this time. i just wonder if i fell for the oh its only got blah blah miles on the head? looked great and already decked .10 thousandths but no other work was done at that time i just did the mods and plugged the head. ive used all the same stuff since 03 same seller and all! only possible thing i can tell right off is the pcv line ive run from valve cover to catch can has gotten to hot an may be sucking together some but i dont think theres any oil in the can still even at 500 miles. also ive noticed during this break in that when i do a vacume break letting the engine cost me to stops that it will blow out some smoke at idle then clear up. only in vtec and after pulling the vacume breaks and getting right back on it. that would be the main time oil could be sucked from the head right before the valve closes right? anyways thanks guys maybe its a little of both ring and seals.no smoke at start up or idle but will when reving in neutral.

[blackshine007]

I'm leaning towards the valve guide seals but do you have any external leaks as well? If so, check your PCV system again. That might be the source of the problem.

[Tech5]

DID YOU GAP THE RINGS??

I have used those same rings and if you didn't gap them there is your problem .......

[Tech5]

I'm leaning towards the valve guide seals but do you have any external leaks as well? If so, check your PCV system again. That might be the source of the problem.

Explain your theory on this one please?

His isn't smoking at idle nor low rpms ,nor at first start up. So valve stem seals will continue to leak not only at high rpms ... When he is at high rpms and then it starts to smoke that is when he is at MAX pressure causing blow by from the rings .

[*EFilliated*]

if it was excessive blow by he would have seen it in his compression numbers and leak down numbers also. due to the fact that he stated the head has been used for years i would look more towards the seals that have never been touched.


Explain your theory on this one please?

His isn't smoking at idle nor low rpms ,nor at first start up. So valve stem seals will continue to leak not only at high rpms ... When he is at high rpms and then it starts to smoke that is when he is at MAX pressure causing blow by from the rings .

[Tech5]

if it was excessive blow by he would have seen it in his compression numbers and leak down numbers also. due to the fact that he stated the head has been used for years i would look more towards the seals that have never been touched.

Compression test will test fine as it's only under a load at high rpms . USED head don't mean nothing .

[*EFilliated*]

he would have seen it in the leak down test if its the rings period. :goodjob: he also stated that he has used the head for years on other motors meaning he has beat the shit out of his motor for years u think a little seal is gonna hold up forever with his kinda driving. dought it


Compression test will test fine as it's only under a load at high rpms . USED head don't mean nothing .

[Tech5]

he would have seen it in the leak down test if its the rings period. :goodjob: he also stated that he has used the head for years on other motors meaning he has beat the shit out of his motor for years u think a little seal is gonna hold up forever with his kinda driving. dought it


Valve seals will not just ONLY leak at high rpms ...Valve seals will leak at all times , mainly at start up , idle , and if they're bad enough they will at any rpm NOT just HIGH RPMS

HIGH RPMS smoking only is RINGS Period

[Tech5]

if you suspect rings, the next thing to do is a compression test.
got a compression tester? good.

now:
remove all 4 spark plugs.
thread the tester in plug hole #1
with the gas pedal to the floor, spin the engine over 4 or 5 revolutions
read the guage
repeat for the other 3 cylinders.

if any of the readings are low, add a tablespoon (approx) to the low cylinder, install the gauge, spin the engine as before, see if the reading goes up.

if the reading with the oil added (wet) is higher than without (dry), the rings are definitely a problem. even so, you may not have to replace the rings. ive seen rings get stuck from carbon deposits, and they can sometimes be freed up without major surgery.

if the reading doesn't improve when wet, you could have another problem, stuck or burnt valves, head gasket, etc.

low, what is low?

normal atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi (at sea level) so a compression ratio of 10/1 should read about 147 lbs. because gauges vary and carbon deposits may affect the actual volume of the head, your readings may be more or less, ive seen readings of as much as 190. what you're looking for is readings about 150 or higher, and all 3 close to each other, say 150-170. EXAMPLE ONLY

THEN do a leak down test and let us know the results please

I posted this so we all see the problem and results from the test and to make sure you did it right.
SO I can help you further ....I am pretty sure it's the rings !

[Tech5]

to clear one more thing we are talking about BLUE smoke right?

Could it be white or black smoke???

running rich or even you a coolant line hooked up wrong in the intake?

[1civic]

Sounds like a mix of things to me.. I would not lean on the valve seals, but yet the guides since the head has been used for years without an overhaul..

Next nothing has been said about the tune or a catch can setup, TUNE, and vent that hooptie..

And last a leak-down would give more info than a compression test so I would put air to this hooptie and find out where it leaks out..

P.s

IF you are hand honing these blocks and slapping pistons in then you can blame yourself, you may have been lucky before, but it sounds like this block might have caught you slipping!!

[Tech5]

Sounds like a mix of things to me.. I would not lean on the valve seals, but yet the guides since the head has been used for years without an overhaul..

Next nothing has been said about the tune or a catch can setup, TUNE, and vent that hooptie..

And last a leak-down would give more info than a compression test so I would put air to this hooptie and find out where it leaks out..

IF you are hand honing these blocks and slapping pistons in then you can blame yourself, you may have been lucky before, but it sounds like this block might have caught you slipping!!


Indeed about leak down !!!

and LOLOLOL at hooptie

[*EFilliated*]

he sayed he did compression and was 240 across the board. he said the leak down came out good also. What else master Tech?

[Tech5]

he sayed he did compression and was 240 across the board. he said the leak down came out good also. What else master Tech?

But I was asking what and how did he do the test ..MY example was how to do a wet and dry .....

Is this your motor???? cupcake


Your 19 you better know who the master is I have been working on cars longer then you been born

[*EFilliated*]

experience has an age,knowledge doesnt. ur my master lmao fucking old mothAfuckas always think they better then everybody. GTFO


But I was asking what and how did he do the test ..MY example was how to do a wet and dry .....

Is this your motor???? cupcake


Your 19 you better know who the master is I have been working on cars longer then you been born

[Tech5]

experience has an age,knowledge doesnt. ur my master lmao fucking old mothAfuckas always think they better then everybody

really what are you trying to prove in this thread? I haven't yet seen anything coming from you but trying to argue with me . I have told and asked questions to try and help a fellow member not to see who has the bigger cock in here. Which clearly you will not win that battle either .

You gain knowledge with experience which comes with AGE re re ...... I am not going to your level of childish games , grow up kid lot for you to learn . Stay around and read and you shall learn more then just talking crap at someone that is trying to help someone else .

[Tech5]

TO the OP


Also take you dipstick out while it's running
Take off your oil cap also
and remove your pcv if you have one

is steam coming out while your idling when the engine is completely hot ?

Is the tip of the plugs have a lot of oil on them?
How about just on the side of the plug?

[*EFilliated*]

ur right master i shall listen to u because im a 19 year old kid that hasnt graduated college and dont kno shit about cars, y? because im 19. and i didnt work on carburetors my whole life and still sits on forums and tries to help people with stuff they have already done. later


really what are you trying to prove in this thread? I haven't yet seen anything coming from you but trying to argue with me . I have told and asked questions to try and help a fellow member not to see who has the bigger cock in here. Which clearly you will not win that battle either .

You gain knowledge with experience which comes with AGE re re ...... I am not going to your level of childish games , grow up kid lot for you to learn . Stay around and read and you shall learn more then just talking crap at someone that is trying to help someone else .

[Tech5]

the only way to accurately determine if the rings are bad is to do it twice, dry the first time, and wet the second time. If the numbers go up significantly after the wet test, the rings are shot.

With a vacuum gauge, if the reading at idle is lower than normal, but the gauge needle fluctuates three inches on both sides of normal, your valve guides are excessively worn. If, when you quickly close the throttle after running at 2000 rpm for ten seconds or more, the gauge needle DOES NOT jump two or more inches above what it is at idle, your piston rings are shot.

[Tech5]

ur right master i shall listen to u because im a 19 year old kid that hasnt graduated college and dont kno shit about cars, y? because im 19. and i didnt work on carburetors my whole life and still sits on forums and tries to help people with stuff they have already done. later

Actually I own a shop but thanks for sharing . And are you trying to elaborate that you graduated collage but you have NO comprehension skills at all .

[turbob20]

k guys here we go you are both getting my old head which was a gsr i used through 4 different engines mixed up from the car i sold with my recent purchase of a 99 si head to make this non smoking at the time ls motor ls vtec. i put pr3 pistons and nippon rings as i have done for many years since 2003 in and arp rod bolts. the block has np pcv set up since it was a 98 block so i made one by drilling and tapping the valve cover and install pcv valve in cover then ran to catch can. the line from the pcv to the can got hot and may suck together some times while driving just a thought but during idle the vlalve should be closed and opens via spring pressure to vent at the rpms i mentioned it smokes at. i have always checked ring gap and wall clearances they are perfect as to the reason im so bum fuzzled about this in the first place to even post it lol. compression was exactly 2400 with throttle open on all 4. leak down was done on each cylinder locked out at top dead center under 100 psi and all leaked down no less than 98 on the second guage so thats a 98% leak down. i could hear no air leak exept maybe a small amound through th valve cove i think was a little noisy and hard to hear but was still a small amount as 98% is within specs of a leakdown test. this is the only problem ive ever had i couldnt figure out. thanks guys ill do some more elimination tests by removing pcv and taking a drive. yes the smoke is all colors from blackish grey to a small amount of blue. no i am not tuned yed running a p28 as i did with all my others till i can get scotty to chip n tune it. but ive never even with an untuned p28 had to go down there smoking like this its kinda embarrassing lol. if i cant figure it out ill take it out get oem rings and try it again!

[*EFilliated*]

Nope not at all, I'm not gonna go down to ur level, u keep on with ur master tech self


Actually I own a shop but thanks for sharing . And are you trying to elaborate that you graduated collage but you have NO comprehension skills at all .

[turbob20]

k guys here we go you are both getting my old head which was a gsr i used through 4 different engines mixed up from the car i sold with my recent purchase of a 99 si head to make this non smoking at the time ls motor ls vtec. i put pr3 pistons and nippon rings as i have done for many years since 2003 in and arp rod bolts. the block has no pcv set up since it was a 98 block and installing vtec head so i made one by drilling and tapping the valve cover and installing pcv valve in cover then ran to catch can. the line from the pcv to the can got hot and may suck together some times while driving just a thought but during idle the valve should be closed and opens via spring pressure to vent at the rpms i mentioned it smokes at. i have always checked ring gap and wall clearances they were all in specs as to the reason im so bum fuzzled about this in the first place to even post it lol. compression was exactly 240 with throttle open on all 4 with no variations. leak down was done on each cylinder locked out at top dead center under 100 psi and all leaked down to no less than 98 on the second guage so thats a 98% leak down. i could hear no air leak exept maybe a small amount through the valve cover i think was a little noisy and hard to hear but was still a small amount as 98% is within specs of a leak down test. this is the only problem ive ever had i couldnt figure out. thanks guys ill do some more elimination tests by removing pcv and taking a drive. yes the smoke is all colors from blackish grey to a small amount of blue. no i am not tuned yet running a p28 as i did with all my others till i can get scotty to chip n tune it. but ive never even with an untuned p28 had to go down there smoking like this its kinda embarrassing lol. if i cant figure it out ill take it out get oem rings and try it again! at onlt 500 miles driving it only every once in a while since i built in in feburary as to give yall a reference of how long its took me to put 500 miles on it could it still need more time for the break in? i mean ive usually built one and towed it a couple times and broke it in on the dyno! thanks guys for you help maybe ill get it soon!

[Tech5]

Nope not at all, I'm not gonna go down to ur level, u keep on with ur master tech self

You been on that level then brought me to yours , wake up off those drugs.

BTW (master) tech stuff is really funny as that is just another certification more then what you have or will.

[1civic]

You are answering your own questions.. 2% leakdown is what you mean't but explain the air you heard, where was it? Did you pull the dipstick and also the oil cap? No pun man but a p28 is meant for a single cam not a high compression dual cam!! P28 would run lean and cause cylinder temps to sky-rocket, this alone could cause damage to a ring-land.. Not saying that is your problem, I'd look more at venting the block since the valve cover will only help a little.. And get that hooptie tuned!!

As for the other guys talk, we all list info for others to help, yes I agree with age and wisdom but some know more than others and it can be a 12yr old for that matter...lol, keep it cool guys..

Later!!

[turbob20]

well i just drove it with the pcv valve removed no change also since most of my drives have been in the evening now i noticed that when i drive ill get in third and beat it hard hits vtec at around 4500 and then smoke some so i run it to about 7000ish let the engine vacum break in gear and when i just barely repress the gas it really smokes so i guess tech is right so rings it is and while its out just for shits n giggles ill get the whole head freshned up! thanks guys reps given!

[turbob20]

You are answering your own questions.. 2% leakdown is what you mean't but explain the air you heard, where was it? Did you pull the dipstick and also the oil cap? No pun man but a p28 is meant for a single cam not a high compression dual cam!! P28 would run lean and cause cylinder temps to sky-rocket, this alone could cause damage to a ring-land.. Not saying that is your problem, I'd look more at venting the block since the valve cover will only help a little.. And get that hooptie tuned!!

As for the other guys talk, we all list info for others to help, yes I agree with age and wisdom but some know more than others and it can be a 12yr old for that matter...lol, keep it cool guys..

Later!! it was from the oil cap up high not through dip stick! and a p28 is a great ecu hats why im not driving it much till i chip and tune it. i just noticed way more smoke than normal after the build and 500 mile oil change is all and having a shop as well i really cant make all that much time for myself/car and a wife n 3 kids lol. thanks guys for taking time out to help though!

[*EFilliated*]

lmao wow u neg rep me cuz u dont like a 19year old interfering with ur master tech knowledge, lol get a life old man


You been on that level then brought me to yours , wake up off those drugs.

BTW (master) tech stuff is really funny as that is just another certification more then what you have or will.

[turbob20]

im no stranger to all this just this problem in particular. my last car was lsv 95 dx hatch with gsr head and had eagle rods probe industries pistons well you know the roster. made 483 on 18psi with a precision turbo and 750cc injectors and 307 at 13psi tuned on crome gold. i wanted to try all motor this time for the challenge of it all. this one pulls awfully hard compared to my first all motor setup with p30s back in 03 tis why im ruling out everything. i hate to pull it all back down running this good but i hate smoke!

[turbob20]

TO the OP


Also take you dipstick out while it's running
Take off your oil cap also
and remove your pcv if you have one

is steam coming out while your idling when the engine is completely hot ?

Is the tip of the plugs have a lot of oil on them?
How about just on the side of the plug?

plugs look like they did from day one will check on the steam rising though.

[Tech5]

lmao wow u neg rep me cuz u dont like a 19year old interfering with ur master tech knowledge, lol get a life old man

Love how you changed your age to 42, but your typing is on a 3rd grade level so no one will believe you.

[*EFilliated*]

your ignorant enough to use some1s age as a way to determine their knowledge. :goodjob:


Love how you changed your age to 42, but your typing is on a 3rd grade level so no one will believe you.

[turbob20]

TO the OP


Also take you dipstick out while it's running
Take off your oil cap also
and remove your pcv if you have one

is steam coming out while your idling when the engine is completely hot ?

Is the tip of the plugs have a lot of oil on them?
How about just on the side of the plug?

no steam either!

[1civic]

im no stranger to all this just this problem in particular. my last car was lsv 95 dx hatch with gsr head and had eagle rods probe industries pistons well you know the roster. made 483 on 18psi with a precision turbo and 750cc injectors and 307 at 13psi tuned on crome gold. i wanted to try all motor this time for the challenge of it all. this one pulls awfully hard compared to my first all motor setup with p30s back in 03 tis why im ruling out everything. i hate to pull it all back down running this good but i hate smoke!

Well, all motor is fun but your not going to make any real power with oem style pistons..lol, go 86x89 with 14:1 and e85.. then you will be in the game.. just some food for thought!!

Later!!

[turbob20]

i know but i have made 205 with p30 b16s with gsr head and type r cams! bout out of that mess just wanted a non smoking section lol car thats good on gas which it is and fun to play with sometimes while driving it around you know?

[turbob20]

the only way to accurately determine if the rings are bad is to do it twice, dry the first time, and wet the second time. If the numbers go up significantly after the wet test, the rings are shot.

With a vacuum gauge, if the reading at idle is lower than normal, but the gauge needle fluctuates three inches on both sides of normal, your valve guides are excessively worn. If, when you quickly close the throttle after running at 2000 rpm for ten seconds or more, the gauge needle DOES NOT jump two or more inches above what it is at idle, your piston rings are shot.

did all this and on the wet compression test only went up to 4-5 psi at around 245 psi on each cylinder and on the vaccum gauge it is steady in the green under normal engine!

[turbob20]

ok guys after the vaccum test i reved it in neutral a couple times and very little smoke even hitting about 5000 but i did notice my pcv lines were ballooning out pretty good then sucking back down so ima go with the crankcase venting needs to be better for now. i dont know what else to do after all these tests came out fine! i guess 11;5:1 needs better venting as stated earlier.

[1civic]

ok guys after the vaccum test i reved it in neutral a couple times and very little smoke even hitting about 5000 but i did notice my pcv lines were ballooning out pretty good then sucking back down so ima go with the crankcase venting needs to be better for now. i dont know what else to do after all these tests came out fine! i guess 11;5:1 needs better venting as stated earlier.

Need to check A/F also.. Or just do a WOT pull and kill car under WOT to check plugs, pull one and look for fuel,oil, etc.. And yes vent the block to catch can..

[turbob20]

will do.

[Tech5]

x
Need to check A/F also.. Or just do a WOT pull and kill car under WOT to check plugs, pull one and look for fuel,oil, etc.. And yes vent the block to catch can..

x2

[turbob20]

fixed! this was my first venture with going vtec with a 99 valve cover pcv block to vtec and had catch can ran from pcv valve to can then to intake to mimic the black box thats missing and this is a sealed can mind you. it would swell when reved and suck almost together when returning back to idle so i read a couple places that said to hull out the pvc so it was straight through with the sealed can set up and it worked! i will be tuning sometime soon was wanting to try for better cams first as i still have the 99 si cams right now. reps were given so thanks guys! peace.

[Tech5]

WOW!!!!!

Talking about rigging up a motor !!

No offense but remind me not let you rebuild and put together a motor for me lolol


I kid , glad it's fixed

[turbob20]

it was just confusing with out the black box im used to using on the earlier block you know? ill be putting the pvc back in cause the line collapsing was the problem! thanks for all your help tech5!

[Tech5]

No problem , it's very hard to give correct or guess answers on a computer without seeing what we are dealing with .We tend to base from our experience and I try to go by from a correct setup car not something that has been altered that is why it is so hard to help these days .maybe next time list all the things you have customized to help us help you better . (Not being a smart butt) Just trying to help you out thanks again , glad you got it taking care of .

[Vteckidd]

im gonna say valve stem seals from personal experience

valve stem seals is usually ONLY on decel, or at first start up.

if its smoking OIL and consuming OIL on WOT, its the rings or the bore is out of round. Either the gap is too fat or he has very low tension oil control rings.

I will vote for the rings, thats prob it. Nothing you can do to fix it except re-ring it

[Vteckidd]

nippon racing rings and i clocked em like i usually do top ring a little off from the exhaust center away from the thrust axis on the piston side skirt second a little off the intake but 180 from the first, oil control rings about 90 degrees apart. ive built a but load of these things but i used the same gsr head for years on mine. swapped that ride got another with ls swap and here im am but with a b16 head this time. i just wonder if i fell for the oh its only got blah blah miles on the head? looked great and already decked .10 thousandths but no other work was done at that time i just did the mods and plugged the head. ive used all the same stuff since 03 same seller and all! only possible thing i can tell right off is the pcv line ive run from valve cover to catch can has gotten to hot an may be sucking together some but i dont think theres any oil in the can still even at 500 miles. also ive noticed during this break in that when i do a vacume break letting the engine cost me to stops that it will blow out some smoke at idle then clear up. only in vtec and after pulling the vacume breaks and getting right back on it. that would be the main time oil could be sucked from the head right before the valve closes right? anyways thanks guys maybe its a little of both ring and seals.no smoke at start up or idle but will when reving in neutral.

yup, you used shitty rings.

Put OEM honda ones in, or personally i like Wisecos. the nippon,topline,etc rings all have REALLY fat gaps on the top ring, and really low tension oil control rings which means youre going to have smoking problems.

i bet your top ring gap is like 20 lol

you will get GOOD compression numbers because there is oil in the cylinder, and a compression test only tests the top ring anyway

[Vteckidd]

if it was excessive blow by he would have seen it in his compression numbers and leak down numbers also. due to the fact that he stated the head has been used for years i would look more towards the seals that have never been touched.

again not exactly. Compression tests only test the TOP RING and even with a 20-24 gap you will get REALLY good numbers , doesnt mean it wont burn oil. Leak down GENERALLY will tell you if the valve guides are bad, but no always.

Its the oil control rings and the gap on his rings i almost guarantee it. Prob wouldnt hurt to do valve stem seals either, but i bet that is NOT the contributing factor

[Vteckidd]

oh so he wasnt running a PCV system? LOL

[turbob20]

no i was the hose that was on it wasnt good enough and kept collapsing letting the crank case build up pressure! try to please read the whole thread when contributing an answer ive seen your work and respect you but as far as nippon rings being shitty thats just some guys opinion as those are oem for many applications any way and i have never had problem when using them and id say since the shop opened in 03 i have more than enough engine builds under my belt and even so more way before that. i checked clearance and know how to file the gaps for clearance. thank you for taking time to look and contribute though.peace.

[Vteckidd]

maybe Nippon isnt the one then, i know topline is FAT from experience. Its one of the chinese ones i know that sucks just as bad.

Topline, Nippon, i forgot the other i may have them confused.

glad you found the problem!

[*EFilliated*]

True, I just added my opinion. And was wrong. Life goes on


again not exactly. Compression tests only test the TOP RING and even with a 20-24 gap you will get REALLY good numbers , doesnt mean it wont burn oil. Leak down GENERALLY will tell you if the valve guides are bad, but no always.

Its the oil control rings and the gap on his rings i almost guarantee it. Prob wouldnt hurt to do valve stem seals either, but i bet that is NOT the contributing factor

[turbob20]

maybe Nippon isnt the one then, i know topline is FAT from experience. Its one of the chinese ones i know that sucks just as bad.

Topline, Nippon, i forgot the other i may have them confused.

glad you found the problem!

ive used em a bunch but never used top line. im the kind of person that if it works i stay with it till it dont lol.