Christians come on in

[msanch24]

Convince me to believe in a god.

What's your indisputable, scientific, hard evidence? I don't mean "because the bible says so". Or "I knew a guy who died and God made him breathe again". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept a faith.

I await enlightenment.

[ISAtlanta300]

You were born.

/ thread.

[ahabion]

Faith is a part of life. Nothing scientific about it. You have faith in all the things that you do will lead you to something.

Faith in school. Faith in love, Faith in friendship and relationships. Faith in money. Scientifically, you can live without all of these things but we have faith that these things will lead us to a better job, better social life, better community, better financial circumstances. It always doesn't work out but that's why they call it faith. You believe in what you're doing will lead you to something better and so you continue to pursue it.

You won't see it until it actually happens or plays out. You do so with the purpose and intent that it all culminates to something better when it's revealed. It's just like what the Oracle told Neo. "...balls to bones."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk5ahbpOsWA

[NJSC]

First thing I think that needs to be addressed is this idea of "indisputable, scientific, hard evidence." Can one give such evidence to anything? The answer is absolutely not. Everything can be disputed. Secondly the idea that you present that Christianity is the only faith through the title of the thread is a little odd. Why are you singling Christ followers out but then turn around and ask for a logical argument to believe in "a god" and "a faith?"
So before I just go and rattle off a standard argument from the library of apologia I'd like to know a little more about you. What do you believe, if anything? Do you think that good and evil in fact do exist? Are you in disbelief about any higher power or is it just the God presented to you through the modern day church? Have you read much on the subject or just shooting out questions? I also ask where is your hard evidence that God does not exist?

[Nerdsrock22]

I would consider reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis if you are actually interested in hearing some compelling and logical reasons for the belief of God. If you are determined to find concrete physical proof for faith, then I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. Christianity, at least, starts with a spiritual understanding of God, and then (hopefully) manifests itself physically through the actions of it's followers.

[chaseamundo]

Subscribed

[msanch24]

You were born.

/ thread.

hardly what i was looking for. lets refrain from stuff like this, please.

[msanch24]

Faith is a part of life. Nothing scientific about it. You have faith in all the things that you do will lead you to something.

Faith in school. Faith in love, Faith in friendship and relationships. Faith in money. Scientifically, you can live without all of these things but we have faith that these things will lead us to a better job, better social life, better community, better financial circumstances. It always doesn't work out but that's why they call it faith. You believe in what you're doing will lead you to something better and so you continue to pursue it.

You won't see it until it actually happens or plays out. You do so with the purpose and intent that it all culminates to something better when it's revealed. It's just like what the Oracle told Neo. "...balls to bones."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk5ahbpOsWA

Thank you for a thought out response. I understand that faith is not a scientific (tangible as i called it in the OP) thing. But what starts someone believing? what jumpstarts faith? I (speaking just from my own POV and experience), have no reason at all to call faith a part of my life. im a logic based person. I see things for what they are. To me, faith is a romanticized version of the world we live in. My social life, my relationships, and my love are all parts of my soul. An internal thing that was obtained through evolution. Not an external thing like a god, or an internal thing caused by a god.

My word choices in this post my offend some of you. I apologize, that is not my intent at all.

[msanch24]

First thing I think that needs to be addressed is this idea of "indisputable, scientific, hard evidence." Can one give such evidence to anything? The answer is absolutely not. Everything can be disputed. Secondly the idea that you present that Christianity is the only faith through the title of the thread is a little odd. Why are you singling Christ followers out but then turn around and ask for a logical argument to believe in "a god" and "a faith?"
So before I just go and rattle off a standard argument from the library of apologia I'd like to know a little more about you. What do you believe, if anything? Do you think that good and evil in fact do exist? Are you in disbelief about any higher power or is it just the God presented to you through the modern day church? Have you read much on the subject or just shooting out questions? I also ask where is your hard evidence that God does not exist?

Youre absolutely right. Allow me to explain:

I refer to the christian "God" as "a god" because by capitalizing his name and using his name as a proper noun, i am admitting to his existence, which i cannot do. Not to offend, just how i operate.

As for me personally, I have read the books, been to bible school, examined the bible word by word. I believe VERY little of it.
I have entertained believing, but i was lying to myself and everyone the whole time. At the end of the day when i lie awake in bed and think about it, It seems insane to me to believe in something, and idea presented to me by mortal men, with no hard evidence to speak of.
I do believe in good and evil (in people) but each are implemented by chemical reactions in the brain. I do not believe in an atmospheric battle between good and evil.

My hard evidence that a god does not exist is simply the lack of hard evidence that a god does exist.
Let me shoot out an example:

I tell you "Hey NJSC, listen up. There used to be huge purple elephants the size of the moon on Earth. There were three of them, and they lived for thousands of years, eating meteors. We sprouted out of their poop."

There is no evidence left from these elephants, and it sounds absurd, but to me, my origin story is just as believable. Again, not trying to offend.

thank you for taking an interest!

[msanch24]

I would consider reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis if you are actually interested in hearing some compelling and logical reasons for the belief of God. If you are determined to find concrete physical proof for faith, then I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. Christianity, at least, starts with a spiritual understanding of God, and then (hopefully) manifests itself physically through the actions of it's followers.

I'll definitely check it out! thank you.

I understand that christianity itself cannot exist in the absence of faith, but that is exactly where im at, so this will be an interesting discussion. I ask with an open mind.

[msanch24]

Subscribed

thanks! what does a fellow cd have to say on the matter?

[antj101]

I would consider reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis if you are actually interested in hearing some compelling and logical reasons for the belief of God. If you are determined to find concrete physical proof for faith, then I'm afraid you are barking up the wrong tree. Christianity, at least, starts with a spiritual understanding of God, and then (hopefully) manifests itself physically through the actions of it's followers.

This...

[msanch24]

This...

which part? the book or the philosophy on faith?

[antj101]

Thank you for a thought out response. I understand that faith is not a scientific (tangible as i called it in the OP) thing. But what starts someone believing? what jumpstarts faith? I (speaking just from my own POV and experience), have no reason at all to call faith a part of my life. im a logic based person. I see things for what they are. To me, faith is a romanticized version of the world we live in. My social life, my relationships, and my love are all parts of my soul. An internal thing that was obtained through evolution. Not an external thing like a god, or an internal thing caused by a god.

My word choices in this post my offend some of you. I apologize, that is not my intent at all.

Before I begin... this is the definition of the word "faith" copy/pasted from dictionary.com

faith   
[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Everyone believes in something... even if it is as simple as believing the sun will rise in the morning. You do have faith that the sun will do it's "job" and rise... correct?

Now... your "soul"... can you see such a thing? A soul is far from a tangible object of any kind in my mind. You say that you've obtained your soul through "evolution"... does that mean that early human's did not have a soul?

^^^ just a base argument.... not meaning to offend... Just questioning you're idea's and beliefs to make you think...

[antj101]

which part? the book or the philosophy on faith?

The book... as well as his idea of faith

[msanch24]

Before I begin... this is the definition of the word "faith" copy/pasted from dictionary.com

faith   
[feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Everyone believes in something... even if it is as simple as believing the sun will rise in the morning. You do have faith that the sun will do it's "job" and rise... correct?

Now... your "soul"... can you see such a thing? A soul is far from a tangible object of any kind in my mind. You say that you've obtained your soul through "evolution"... does that mean that early human's did not have a soul?

^^^ just a base argument.... not meaning to offend... Just questioning you're idea's and beliefs to make you think...

Souls can not be touched with fingers or the like, but souls can be felt. You feel others' and you feel your own. that is tangible to me. Yes, faith is tangible to some, and i respect that, but i cannot feel it.

Early humans had souls yes, ever since human beings became "superiorly intelligent", we have had souls. A "soul" in a sense that we have feelings and emotion.

[msanch24]

The book... as well as his idea of faith

ill check it out! thanks

[antj101]

Souls can not be touched with fingers or the like, but souls can be felt. You feel others' and you feel your own. that is tangible to me. Yes, faith is tangible to some, and i respect that, but i cannot feel it.

Early humans had souls yes, ever since human beings became "superiorly intelligent", we have had souls. A "soul" in a sense that we have feelings and emotion.

It seems as though you are questioning faith more than Christianity.

I understand if you have a problem with faith. It is a hard "concept" to fully comprehend. Though a soul is quite as difficult. May I ask why you want a "tangible, logical reason to accept a faith? I just want to see where you're coming from.

[msanch24]

It seems as though you are questioning faith more than Christianity.

I understand if you have a problem with faith. It is a hard "concept" to fully comprehend. Though a soul is quite as difficult. May I ask why you want a "tangible, logical reason to accept a faith? I just want to see where you're coming from.

i want to understand what is it that causes people to put so much of themselves into something so... "uncertain".
And the concept of a soul is crystal clear to me, but faith is not.
As far as what i am questioning, i question the existence of a god, the truth of faith, and the reason for people's beliefs

EDIT: gotta run to class, ill check back tonight.

[Nerdsrock22]

i want to understand what is it that causes people to put so much of themselves into something so... "uncertain".
And the concept of a soul is crystal clear to me, but faith is not.
As far as what i am questioning, i question the existence of a god, the truth of faith, and the reason for people's beliefs

EDIT: gotta run to class, ill check back tonight.

My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.

From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)

I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.

All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.

Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.

[msanch24]

My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.

From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)

I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.

All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.

Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.

I read this and im really anxious to reply but im feeling burnt out from biolab, so ill get back tonight when i have free time to formulate a response worthy of the time you put in to answer mine. I think youre on to something with this post.

[NJSC]

Youre absolutely right. Allow me to explain:

I refer to the christian "God" as "a god" because by capitalizing his name and using his name as a proper noun, i am admitting to his existence, which i cannot do. Not to offend, just how i operate.

As for me personally, I have read the books, been to bible school, examined the bible word by word. I believe VERY little of it.
I have entertained believing, but i was lying to myself and everyone the whole time. At the end of the day when i lie awake in bed and think about it, It seems insane to me to believe in something, and idea presented to me by mortal men, with no hard evidence to speak of.
I do believe in good and evil (in people) but each are implemented by chemical reactions in the brain. I do not believe in an atmospheric battle between good and evil.

My hard evidence that a god does not exist is simply the lack of hard evidence that a god does exist.
Let me shoot out an example:

I tell you "Hey NJSC, listen up. There used to be huge purple elephants the size of the moon on Earth. There were three of them, and they lived for thousands of years, eating meteors. We sprouted out of their poop."

There is no evidence left from these elephants, and it sounds absurd, but to me, my origin story is just as believable. Again, not trying to offend.

thank you for taking an interest!

I take no offense in your stance and I applaud the maturity that you have been presenting in the conversation.
First thing to consider is you are willing to refute the idea of a supreme being based completely on you not seeing any evidence. But at the same time you ascribe to the belief in a soul which just appeared through evolution. Your support of this is us having feelings and emotion, but do not inferior animals also have this soul? Any dog lover will tell you that their dog has feelings. You shout at a dog, they are sad. You come home from a long day, and your dog obviously missed you and is excited that you are home. So based on your argument dogs then also have souls, but at what point during the evolutionary period did dogs receive that? You get the point. The evolutionary theory also is based on genetic mutations which are then able to make a specific individual stronger, faster, sexier, etc. So a "soul" would then have no evolutionary benefit and therefore based on it's own argument would not propel a species further along the evolutionary spectrum. So based on the evolutionary theory there would be no souls.

The idea that you do believe in good and evil in people but only by chemical reactions in the brain is in itself an oxymoron. The idea of good is that there is an outside standard which people hold themselves and others accountable for. If you simply attribute this to chemical reactions in the brain then one cannot judge another on what is good or what is evil. We are simply animals, again with no souls. That would then go to say if I wanted to come and hump your leg, punch your aunt Sally in the face, or (GASP IS HE ABOUT TO SAY IT?! YES HE IS!) steal your car that you cannot then say that it is wrong, because it is all just chemical reactions in my brain. Across nearly everyone in the world there is obviously evidence that this standard exists. Rape and cannibalism are two of the highest standards to social laws or objective standards on what is evil. This goes to show that there is obviously an external objective moral standard that exists, and I would argue that this standard is from God.
I'm going to touch on your argument for evidence again. Scenario: QD (I picked you because you are probably going to read this.) comes into my house and kills my wife no finger prints, no dna evidence, no weapon, no motive, nothing. Does that then mean that QD did not kill my wife? Of course not. Truth is truth whether evidence is there or not also whether you choose to believe it or not.
Another book to read is "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell Little bit of an easier read.

[quickdodge®]

Convince me to believe in a god.

What's your indisputable, scientific, hard evidence?

There isn't any indisputable evidence in the existence of a God. Faith is most certainly not evidence. Faith is a belief. Not a tangible truth.


Can one give such evidence to anything? The answer is absolutely not. Everything can be disputed.

You sure you don't want to edit this out of your post?


I also ask where is your hard evidence that God does not exist?

Much, much easier to disprove God than to prove. There are no pictures. There are no videos. There are no recordings. No nothing to show that there is a God. There's nothing to prove that there is a God, so that's more proof that He doesn't exist.

I'm not saying I don't believe. I'm just being logical and thinking things through. To me, it just makes sense. Later, QD.

[NJSC]

I knew you would be reading :D
I don't want to edit that out of my post. Everything can be disputed. I'm not speaking to the logic or intelligence of the arguments which dispute everything. Case in point the philosophical postmodern movement that states there is no ultimate truth only what one believes to be true. Solipsism also stands on the premise that the physical world does not exist other than a projection of the of the mind. So you are the ruler of said reality and choose what exists and what does not. So that is what my statement that everything can be disputed speaks to.
I also don't think that it is easier to prove or disprove the existence of God. To prove something is to show the absolute validity or correctness of something. Whether that stance is in favor of the existence of God or not it has not happened. I think that the only proof is upon death. If you end up before the creator then the truth is there. Only probability can be discussed.

[quickdodge®]

I knew you would be reading :D
I don't want to edit that out of my post. Everything can be disputed.

I have a 1979 Honda Civic. I can prove that. It is non-disputable. I'm married. I have children. My favorite color is ........... These are all truths that can be proven without a doubt. Not everything can be disputed.


To prove something is to show the absolute validity or correctness of something.

Which you absolutely can NOT do when it comes to the existence of God. Which makes it easier to believe that He does NOT exist. He's been around for all this time and there is no definitive evidence of His being? Speaks volumes, man.


If you end up before the creator then the truth is there. Only probability can be discussed.

IF there is a creator. Later, QD.

[msanch24]

My approach to faith begins first with my understanding of morality. From my own observation of the world, I see what appears to me to be a general universally accepted code of morality, that is very different from animal instincts. That is, most humans will acknowledge that stealing and killing is a wrong thing to do, whereas, a cougar, for example, will challenge another predator for a meal, and kill them if necessary. And not feel any guilt about it. Most of us would not kill another human for a meal.

From there, by mixing that seemingly universal code of morality, with the extreme complexity of the universe, the human mind, etc., I decide to believe that life as we know it was both created and designed by something. This belief in a higher power, let's loosely call it religion, awakens a desire to worship (that I believe is present in all of humankind, be it a worship of God, of science, of cars, women, etc.)

I then must choose what faith to believe, what God to worship. In examining the world religions, I am drawn to the person of Christ. I think the virtues of selflessness, humility, unconditional love, and forgiveness. It is completely counter-culture, but it is exactly what the world needs. Now I'm sure you are thinking that all religions teach those values, and they probably do. But Christianity is the only one that teaches that the creator became man and walked in our shoes, and lived out the "perfect" life.

All that to say, there was still an unexplainable spiritual awakening. Everything I just said is simply mental, that is, faith in Christianity "makes sense" to me. Faith, however, is more intangible. My Christianity did not spring forth out of logic, but is rather enforced by it.

Hope that makes sense, I appreciate your honest questions.

After reading you post, i can accept much, but not all of it. I understand that there is a moral code, but it definitely varies between cultures and social groups. You are correct, however, where it does seem to completely contradict our animal instincts. I just happen to accredit this to the presence of emotion. Compassion, sympathy, and guilt for instance.

And here is where you lost me. Im unable to see where you make the jump from a complex universe to that meaning that it was created by a superior being.

Your reasons for choosing christianity are noble. It's obvious to me that you thought it out and you stress the "good" parts of the religion. You truly enjoy that it makes you live as a better person. But to me, all those things are part of the moral code, not a code instilled in us by a church. I practice forgiveness, selflessness and the lot because my mother did a darn fine job in raising me. I admire you for your recognizing the importance of these virtues, but for the atheist that practices them despite not having a preacher and a book to live by, it makes all the other things that go along with religion seem strange.

Mainly, I cannot wrap my head around this:
Christians claim to have a merciful god. Yet he demands that you worship him and only him, or you'll suffer forever. He demands that you live by these virtues so that you will be rewarded with heaven. No disrespect intended, but is this not the grounds of bribery?

I live a life directed towards bettering myself and all that around me because i think it is the right thing to do. (not saying you dont, ive just heard some christians slip with "if i werent a christian id beat your ass" or the like. Its sickening)

I guess what im trying to say is that i dont feel a need in faith for a superior being to be fulfilled. I fulfill myself through music, relationships, and the simple things. Ive been to church many a time and never have i come out feeling even close to as full of ecstasy and joy than when i step out of my car after a weekend drive with the windows down, or when i strum my final chord and the crowds applause rolls over me.

I just dont feel the void, you know? Maybe thats where im different than most. I dont need questions answered, and i dont have a yearning to worship a creator.

[msanch24]

I take no offense in your stance and I applaud the maturity that you have been presenting in the conversation.
First thing to consider is you are willing to refute the idea of a supreme being based completely on you not seeing any evidence. But at the same time you ascribe to the belief in a soul which just appeared through evolution. Your support of this is us having feelings and emotion, but do not inferior animals also have this soul? Any dog lover will tell you that their dog has feelings. You shout at a dog, they are sad. You come home from a long day, and your dog obviously missed you and is excited that you are home. So based on your argument dogs then also have souls, but at what point during the evolutionary period did dogs receive that? You get the point. The evolutionary theory also is based on genetic mutations which are then able to make a specific individual stronger, faster, sexier, etc. So a "soul" would then have no evolutionary benefit and therefore based on it's own argument would not propel a species further along the evolutionary spectrum. So based on the evolutionary theory there would be no souls.

The idea that you do believe in good and evil in people but only by chemical reactions in the brain is in itself an oxymoron. The idea of good is that there is an outside standard which people hold themselves and others accountable for. If you simply attribute this to chemical reactions in the brain then one cannot judge another on what is good or what is evil. We are simply animals, again with no souls. That would then go to say if I wanted to come and hump your leg, punch your aunt Sally in the face, or (GASP IS HE ABOUT TO SAY IT?! YES HE IS!) steal your car that you cannot then say that it is wrong, because it is all just chemical reactions in my brain. Across nearly everyone in the world there is obviously evidence that this standard exists. Rape and cannibalism are two of the highest standards to social laws or objective standards on what is evil. This goes to show that there is obviously an external objective moral standard that exists, and I would argue that this standard is from God.
I'm going to touch on your argument for evidence again. Scenario: QD (I picked you because you are probably going to read this.) comes into my house and kills my wife no finger prints, no dna evidence, no weapon, no motive, nothing. Does that then mean that QD did not kill my wife? Of course not. Truth is truth whether evidence is there or not also whether you choose to believe it or not.
Another book to read is "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell Little bit of an easier read.

For me, souls are in all living things. Its the ability to reason, as well as the presence of emotions that separates us from other animals. A more intelligent animal will survive. Through evolution, the species gets more and more intelligent until it obtains the ability to reason. Pair that with emotion and bam, you've got yourself a human being.

Im not too clear on the point you're making in the second part, but ill take a stab at responding. Chemical makeup of a persons decision making sector of the brain decides how well they abide by the "social moral code of good and evil". This doesnt change that the code exists or whether or not they break it or abide by it. They simply do or dont. Some do, some do not. This, of course, largely influenced by environmental factors and the quality of parenting. But some apples are just rotten from the beginning.

As for the unfortunate story about QD, no, we do not know who killed your wife, but we know that she was killed. Her body is the evidence that it happened. In the context of the existence of a god, there is no such evidence. QD addresses this in very good wording up a little bit. let me go find it... ok, this right here:

"He's been around for all this time and there is no definitive evidence of His being? Speaks volumes, man."

this is pretty much what Im trying to say.

My apologies if this is all a little incoherent. I ramble sometimes and my meaning mightve gotten buried somewhere.

[ahabion]

There isn't any indisputable evidence in the existence of a God. Faith is most certainly not evidence. Faith is a belief. Not a tangible truth.

Reminds me of a recent movie I saw "The Rite" with Anthony Hopkins (guy in Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal)...

I went to this movie with a friend of mine (both of us Christians) but this guy was one of the elders of our church on a very special time. A week prior to us seeing the movie, we were talking about his experiences as an elder and the one thing he says that he cannot shake off was (to him) the true confirmation that this 'belief thing' is really real. I asked him what confirmed it for him and he stated that it was when he was asked to be part of an exorcism for one of the girls at our church that got possessed. He stated that it was entirely surreal or 'unbelievable' witnessing it. I asked him for more details because I enjoy these kinds of things... the Exorcists movies, Exorcism of Emily Rose... but I asked him if the things we see in movies is true. He had a resounding answer of Yes. He said that they had 5 grown men trying to hold her down (she's around 130 lbs) and the men probably from 160 - 250 lbs and yet they couldn't hold her down... he said very literally she was pushing (using her arms) them a good distance off while they attempted to hold her down. The voice changing completely and speaking in a totally different language. Now mind you, we're Asian... so we have our native tongue, English, and given who I know were at the exorcism, French, Laos, Thai, and Cambodian were all representative languages there. The girl was born in the States, knows our native language and English fluently and may know one of the common school languages (French, Spanish, etc...) but what he told me was that it was a completely different language altogether which scared the crap out of him. It wasn't until our Pastor started into the exorcism using God's name did the fighting-back subside.

I then asked him what happened next... he stated that the Pastor started to demand the names of the demons that possessed her... she was replying in English and no one of the older elders knew to write English besides my friend... so he had to write out all the names. He stated that the first night, he had over 50 names and it gradually became less and less each night (4 nights total). By that time the Pastor was completely exhausted, they asked for help from one of the sister branches (same denomination and ethnic language) to send their pastor to help with the 'boss' demon. Now that's the story he told me a week prior to seeing the movie.

Now during the movie, what he told me the week before was all confirmed (now, i know it's just a movie... so it's not real real) but it was a based on a true story (real life experience).

Long story short, all I'm saying is that everything he told me he experienced a week previously was played out almost to the T in this movie... very coincidentally. Take it however you want... but this stuff is real for me.

Good movie BTW for anyone who likes those demonic possession movies. PG13 so don't expect a lot of blood, violence, sex, or gore. I think they did a good job upon the basis of the movie than 'Hollywood-ing' it up.

[msanch24]

Reminds me of a recent movie I saw "The Rite" with Anthony Hopkins (guy in Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal)...

I went to this movie with a friend of mine (both of us Christians) but this guy was one of the elders of our church on a very special time. A week prior to us seeing the movie, we were talking about his experiences as an elder and the one thing he says that he cannot shake off was (to him) the true confirmation that this 'belief thing' is really real. I asked him what confirmed it for him and he stated that it was when he was asked to be part of an exorcism for one of the girls at our church that got possessed. He stated that it was entirely surreal or 'unbelievable' witnessing it. I asked him for more details because I enjoy these kinds of things... the Exorcists movies, Exorcism of Emily Rose... but I asked him if the things we see in movies is true. He had a resounding answer of Yes. He said that they had 5 grown men trying to hold her down (she's around 130 lbs) and the men probably from 160 - 250 lbs and yet they couldn't hold her down... he said very literally she was pushing (using her arms) them a good distance off while they attempted to hold her down. The voice changing completely and speaking in a totally different language. Now mind you, we're Asian... so we have our native tongue, English, and given who I know were at the exorcism, French, Laos, Thai, and Cambodian were all representative languages there. The girl was born in the States, knows our native language and English fluently and may know one of the common school languages (French, Spanish, etc...) but what he told me was that it was a completely different language altogether which scared the crap out of him. It wasn't until our Pastor started into the exorcism using God's name did the fighting-back subside.

I then asked him what happened next... he stated that the Pastor started to demand the names of the demons that possessed her... she was replying in English and no one of the older elders knew to write English besides my friend... so he had to write out all the names. He stated that the first night, he had over 50 names and it gradually became less and less each night (4 nights total). By that time the Pastor was completely exhausted, they asked for help from one of the sister branches (same denomination and ethnic language) to send their pastor to help with the 'boss' demon. Now that's the story he told me a week prior to seeing the movie.

Now during the movie, what he told me the week before was all confirmed (now, i know it's just a movie... so it's not real real) but it was a based on a true story (real life experience).

Long story short, all I'm saying is that everything he told me he experienced a week previously was played out almost to the T in this movie... very coincidentally. Take it however you want... but this stuff is real for me.

Good movie BTW for anyone who likes those demonic possession movies. PG13 so don't expect a lot of blood, violence, sex, or gore. I think they did a good job upon the basis of the movie than 'Hollywood-ing' it up.

aside from stories and "based on a true story" films, theyre no evidence for these happenings either. Not saying your friend isnt being truthful, but i just dont believe that it happened like that. And if it did, it wasnt caused by demons. I just cant believe that. my mind wont allow it. It seems way too...absurd.

[Nerdsrock22]

After reading you post, i can accept much, but not all of it. I understand that there is a moral code, but it definitely varies between cultures and social groups. You are correct, however, where it does seem to completely contradict our animal instincts. I just happen to accredit this to the presence of emotion. Compassion, sympathy, and guilt for instance.

And here is where you lost me. Im unable to see where you make the jump from a complex universe to that meaning that it was created by a superior being.

Your reasons for choosing christianity are noble. It's obvious to me that you thought it out and you stress the "good" parts of the religion. You truly enjoy that it makes you live as a better person. But to me, all those things are part of the moral code, not a code instilled in us by a church. I practice forgiveness, selflessness and the lot because my mother did a darn fine job in raising me. I admire you for your recognizing the importance of these virtues, but for the atheist that practices them despite not having a preacher and a book to live by, it makes all the other things that go along with religion seem strange.

Here is where you lose me. I don't see a need for the evolution of human emotion and all that that idea encompasses. (And before you peg me as an ignorant creationist, understand that you and I probably have very similar ideas on how we wound up (scientifically) where were are now. I consider science an ally of Christianity.) What good is art, music, fashion, sexuality, etc. in a natural world? Why, in six billion years, has no other species even come close to these things? And yes, I've seen all the reasons why humans evolved the way they did. But if a human was to evolve to wear clothes, why not cold-blooded animals? Would not other animals benefit from equal levels of intelligence and creativity? If secular evolution works the way I understand it, why are all the other animals essentially stuck at square one in that regard? From that question, I assume that humans wound up this way by design.


Mainly, I cannot wrap my head around this:
Christians claim to have a merciful god. Yet he demands that you worship him and only him, or you'll suffer forever. He demands that you live by these virtues so that you will be rewarded with heaven. No disrespect intended, but is this not the grounds of bribery?

Your concern is a valid one, and one shared by many Christians. And there is no easy answer, and maybe no answer at all. But you are mistaken in believing that God rewards our good works with an eternity in heaven. First of all, Christianity dictates that salvation is obtained through the acceptance of grace alone. Anyone that tells you different doesn't understand the basic tenets of the religion.

Christianity is not a series of rules for humanity to live by until Christ shows back up and takes us all the heaven. Modern Christianity, however, has created this idea that this life doesn't matter, and that everything will be great once we get upstairs. This idea is a recent one, stemming out of Rapture Theology, which is largely a 19th century invention. The idea climaxed in the 1990's with all of the Left Behind nonsense.

Christianity is supposed to be a radical, counter-cultural movement to create an entirely different culture in this world. Whereas humanity seeks power through war, government, spite, and punishment, we seek to create a world through power-under; social justice, service, humility, and love. The rules you speak are teachings to help reach that end. [/QUOTE]


I live a life directed towards bettering myself and all that around me because i think it is the right thing to do. (not saying you dont, ive just heard some christians slip with "if i werent a christian id beat your ass" or the like. Its sickening)

At the end of the day, we are all still humans. We are not perfect, we do not profess to be. Many terrible things have been done in the name in the name of Christ. I do not seek to defend or justify those things. They bring me more disgust than you could imagine.


I guess what im trying to say is that i dont feel a need in faith for a superior being to be fulfilled. I fulfill myself through music, relationships, and the simple things. Ive been to church many a time and never have i come out feeling even close to as full of ecstasy and joy than when i step out of my car after a weekend drive with the windows down, or when i strum my final chord and the crowds applause rolls over me.

I just dont feel the void, you know? Maybe thats where im different than most. I dont need questions answered, and i dont have a yearning to worship a creator.

I don't doubt that you find fulfillment through music, relationships, and the simple things. I've stepped out of my RSX after a long weekend of spirited driving, and finished a good show to the approval of my band's fans. The difference, is that those things connect on a spiritual level for me. My passions are intricately tied to my entire being. I cannot explain it.

My hope for you is that you at least understand that there is more to Christianity than the American civil religion that you observe in your everyday life. We aren't the gay haters, the Left Behinder's or million-dollar pastors; nor are we trying to force you to pray before a football game or hang up a copy of the Ten Commandments. We just read a story about how 12 men were convinced by a mysterious rabbi to change the world and gave their lives for that cause, and decided that we'd do our best to do the same. :goodjob:

[NJSC]

I have a 1979 Honda Civic. I can prove that. It is non-disputable. I'm married. I have children. My favorite color is ........... These are all truths that can be proven without a doubt. Not everything can be disputed.
But if I choose to dispute that I can. I can merely choose to believe that everything is merely a figment of my imagination. Then you don't exist. Your wife doesn't exist. You car doesn't exist, and neither do colors. Not saying that I ascribe to this mentality, but some do.



Which you absolutely can NOT do when it comes to the existence of God. Which makes it easier to believe that He does NOT exist. He's been around for all this time and there is no definitive evidence of His being? Speaks volumes, man.
Which you also absolutely can not do when it comes to the non-existence of God.





IF there is a creator. Later, QD.
We'll find out.

[quickdodge®]

But if I choose to dispute that I can. I can merely choose to believe that everything is merely a figment of my imagination. Then you don't exist. Your wife doesn't exist. You car doesn't exist, and neither do colors. Not saying that I ascribe to this mentality, but some do.

You're right. You can dispute. But when it's placed right in front of you, the dispute is instantly null and void.



Which you also absolutely can not do when it comes to the non-existence of God.

In a sense, you're right here as well. Again, though, the lack of evidence to prove God's existence becomes the proof of (a probable) non-existence. I don't have to prove that He doesn't exist because there is no evidence to disprove it.


We'll find out.

That we shall. Like I said before, I'm not a total non-believer. I'm one who just has lots of questions that will literally NEVER be answered by anyone on Earth. Later, QD.

[ahabion]

aside from stories and "based on a true story" films, theyre no evidence for these happenings either. Not saying your friend isnt being truthful, but i just dont believe that it happened like that. And if it did, it wasnt caused by demons. I just cant believe that. my mind wont allow it. It seems way too...absurd.

That's what the character in the movie believed too... he explained it away using science. That the possessed were really schizo and that the speaking of English (she was native Italian) and other languages were due to the person's age and demographic. If there is one thing that I've learned in corporate america, is that you can explain anything away, even hard facts and numbers.

I either case, convincing anyone to do or be something else when that person is already resolved to do the other is pretty fruitless. Resolved being the keyword there.

[msanch24]

That's what the character in the movie believed too... he explained it away using science. That the possessed were really schizo and that the speaking of English (she was native Italian) and other languages were due to the person's age and demographic. If there is one thing that I've learned in corporate america, is that you can explain anything away, even hard facts and numbers.

I either case, convincing anyone to do or be something else when that person is already resolved to do the other is pretty fruitless. Resolved being the keyword there.

I dont know man. I seems counterproductive to attempt to explain something using a hollywood movie. I understand where youre coming from and i understand the point youre making but until i have first hand real life experience, it doesnt mean much to me.

[Echonova]

You're right. You can dispute. But when it's placed right in front of you, the dispute is instantly null and void.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQlhoy-LJo&feature=related

[msanch24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQlhoy-LJo&feature=related

lol

[NJSC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQlhoy-LJo&feature=related

wish I could give you more reps for this. Haha

[RL...]

Convince me to believe in a god.

What's your indisputable, scientific, hard evidence? I don't mean "because the bible says so". Or "I knew a guy who died and God made him breathe again". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept a faith.

I await enlightenment.

No one can give you a tangible or logical reason to accept a faith because accepting a faith requires, well faith. And faith is the ability to believe in something in the absence of logic or tangible evidence which is why religions' validity can not be proved on paper, only in one's faith.

[msanch24]

No one can give you a tangible or logical reason to accept a faith because accepting a faith requires, well faith. And faith is the ability to believe in something in the absence of logic or tangible evidence which is why religions' validity can not be proved on paper, only in one's faith.

Yes, I suppose I'm starting to accept this. Unfortunately, I just don't have the faith. I can't believe in something I've never seen, felt, heard, etc.

[STRteg]

Religion was created to control the masses and thats it, it doesn't matter how many details you get into bottom line without religion there would be no form or structure of productive lifestyle for us to follow

Point blank - Religion = CROWD CONTROL because honestly, would mankind have made it to y2k without it?

[msanch24]

Religion was created to control the masses and thats it, it doesn't matter how many details you get into bottom line without religion there would be no form or structure of productive lifestyle for us to follow

Point blank - Religion = CROWD CONTROL because honestly, would mankind have made it to y2k without it?

This has always been my understanding.

[Nerdsrock22]

Religion was created to control the masses and thats it, it doesn't matter how many details you get into bottom line without religion there would be no form or structure of productive lifestyle for us to follow

Point blank - Religion = CROWD CONTROL because honestly, would mankind have made it to y2k without it?

So what do you do with counter-cultural religion Karl Marx?

[ahabion]

Yes, I suppose I'm starting to accept this. Unfortunately, I just don't have the faith. I can't believe in something I've never seen, felt, heard, etc.

That's why they call it faith.

That begs the question that even if you saw it, would you believe it?

Even in biblical terms (based on the Bible) this was true and yet there were those without faith. Where God was with the nation and yet man still refused to believe. So even if tangible evidence were there, would you believe what you saw to be true or would you also explain it away using some theoretical ideology?

I like to use Hollywood because they do such a great job portraying life. Even though they are works of fiction or whatever genre thereof, it still is a story of humanity and human behavior. The stories, ideology, thoughts and theories are all visualized for the audience in a way to allow them to understand. You should watch the kid's movie "Horton Hears a Who". :) Exactly what you speak of.

[geoff]

First off, it's very nice to see this section come back to life. It has been some time since I have seen any life in here. I hope all is well with everyone and that this year has started out prosperous and good for everyone. Now that that is aside; I will try to answer the original question as well as give a response to something a few posts above.

Faith- The Bible defines faith as thus; " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1. There is no scientific proof to validate someone's faith. Science can not be used to explain that which transcends all that we sense and perceive. God is above our minds and thoughts, He is outside of our "box" because He goes beyond what any single one of us or mankind in general can experience in one life time. We understand things based on time, some of us get 75 years and others a few months. To explain a God who is not bound by time but created it and not bound by physical laws because He wrote them; would be like trying to explain to an infant the human anatomy or physics. It can not be done with science or theories because those are based on our own limited knowledge and understanding of the world around us. Faith goes beyond all understanding and reason, it requires effort and a truly open mind. I learned long ago that there is no way to prove God nor ones faith, simply because you can choose to either believe or dismiss evidences in nature and even in our own bodies. Faith starts because the Holy Spirit calls us. We all have a yerning to search out the unknown and the reason we are here. The Holy Spirit calls to a man's soul and gives him conviction for sins. When we stand in the presence of the Holy God we are humbled and only then will faith begin. You can not expect to search for God already expecting to find nothing. You are only battling yourself there and your own deep mind for what you have already decided. If you are truly interested to learn more about Truth and the truth behind faith and God, give me a call 678-832-3871 jonathan. I would love for you to come to my church, listen to what is preached and feel the Spirit of God. I have given the offer before for anyone to come and see what I am talking about and prove me wrong. Good luck with your search and I pray that God would speak to your heart.

Second- The whole religion as a crowd control or the bible as such, it makes absolutely no sense. " No one but God could have authored the Bible, for good beings would not falsely claim divine inspiration, and evil beings would not teach such high morality." New Life study guide.

If anyone is interested in searching for the Lord, seeking Truth, or just wants to talk about faith. I reach out to anyone, my invitation is for all and my number is the same.

[bu villain]

Second- The whole religion as a crowd control or the bible as such, it makes absolutely no sense. " No one but God could have authored the Bible, for good beings would not falsely claim divine inspiration, and evil beings would not teach such high morality." New Life study guide.

Makes no sense?! Is it really inconceivable that people might lie because they thought it would be an effective way to convince people to behave better?

[geoff]

It is inconcievable only if you have taken time to study the Bible. As I said before, good men would not have claimed divine inspiration and evil men would not have written to maintain such high moral standards. The Bible was written over many centuries and penned by many different authors yet it flows as if it was done by one person in one lifetime ( Jesus is the author and it was done in His own timeline). If it were a tool used for crowed control then it would have been full of corruption, as we have seen time and time again that power WILL corrupt any man. Also, Christianity is the fulfillment of the Jewish beliefs. The Jews are a very strict people that live by a code, they wrote the first half of the bible and in fact even the New Testament. The New testament was written by the apostles who were in fact Jews themselves. My point being this, if it were simply for crowd control then the Jews would have never written the New testament because they would have held onto tradition and their laws. If you want to look at men who try to use scare tacticts and control a population then look at communism. If religion and the Bible were created for such a thing then why would communist nations fight the belief in Christianity?

[bu villain]

So in your opinion, men are either pure good or pure evil and there is no in between? They never do good things for the wrong reasons or bad things with good intentions? And, groups of people can never believe they are performing God's will when they are not?

Also, crowd control = corruption? I don't understand your argument for this at all. So if a school has an honor code, it must be full of corruption because they are trying to tell students how to behave?

Why single out communism? Every system of government has rules and laws that are intended to control people's behaviors. Why do you think you get to write off your mortgage interest on your taxes. It isn't because God wants you to own a house, it's because the goverment wants people to buy homes. All laws are crowd control, pure and simple. Whether those laws come from a divine book, from a dictator, or from an elected body doesn't change that fact.

[Nerdsrock22]

The Bible was written over many centuries and penned by many different authors yet it flows as if it was done by one person in one lifetime ( Jesus is the author and it was done in His own timeline).

I'm a full Bible-believing Christian, but I cannot agree with this statement. The Bible was written in a variety of different styles, some historical, some metaphorical, and for a variety of different audiences. I believe that every word was divinely inspired, but the truths contained are complex and take a lifetime to understand (if possible at all).

[msanch24]

First off, it's very nice to see this section come back to life. It has been some time since I have seen any life in here. I hope all is well with everyone and that this year has started out prosperous and good for everyone. Now that that is aside; I will try to answer the original question as well as give a response to something a few posts above.

Faith- The Bible defines faith as thus; " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1. There is no scientific proof to validate someone's faith. Science can not be used to explain that which transcends all that we sense and perceive. God is above our minds and thoughts, He is outside of our "box" because He goes beyond what any single one of us or mankind in general can experience in one life time. We understand things based on time, some of us get 75 years and others a few months. To explain a God who is not bound by time but created it and not bound by physical laws because He wrote them; would be like trying to explain to an infant the human anatomy or physics. It can not be done with science or theories because those are based on our own limited knowledge and understanding of the world around us. Faith goes beyond all understanding and reason, it requires effort and a truly open mind. I learned long ago that there is no way to prove God nor ones faith, simply because you can choose to either believe or dismiss evidences in nature and even in our own bodies. Faith starts because the Holy Spirit calls us. We all have a yerning to search out the unknown and the reason we are here. The Holy Spirit calls to a man's soul and gives him conviction for sins. When we stand in the presence of the Holy God we are humbled and only then will faith begin. You can not expect to search for God already expecting to find nothing. You are only battling yourself there and your own deep mind for what you have already decided. If you are truly interested to learn more about Truth and the truth behind faith and God, give me a call 678-832-3871 jonathan. I would love for you to come to my church, listen to what is preached and feel the Spirit of God. I have given the offer before for anyone to come and see what I am talking about and prove me wrong. Good luck with your search and I pray that God would speak to your heart.

Second- The whole religion as a crowd control or the bible as such, it makes absolutely no sense. " No one but God could have authored the Bible, for good beings would not falsely claim divine inspiration, and evil beings would not teach such high morality." New Life study guide.

If anyone is interested in searching for the Lord, seeking Truth, or just wants to talk about faith. I reach out to anyone, my invitation is for all and my number is the same.

For someone who doesn't believe, using bible verses to validate a point has no impact whatsoever. No disrespect, it's just like stating "faith is the only way to be aware of god because the bible says so". I've heard literally hundreds of people try to persuade me with their "because the bible says so" arguments. I was hoping for other POV's here. I have received several, and I thank those guys for that!

As far as your second point, sorry man but that's just bogus. COUNTLESS evil men have used a supreme state to fuel their evil endeavors. Though not necessarily to be labeled evil, I'm fairly certain that you won't defend various middle eastern terrorists who are driven by their own book of god. Your statement about good beings and evil beings only plays out if peoples' intentions are black and white. Human beings are made of vast gray areas. Many "good" men have preached the bible, swearing by it's word, only to have their true intentions exposed at a later time. It is EXTREMELY easy to believe (and make sense of) that people would use the tales and teachings of Christianity to promote personal, or establishment based motives.

[msanch24]

So in your opinion, men are either pure good or pure evil and there is no in between? They never do good things for the wrong reasons or bad things with good intentions? And, groups of people can never believe they are performing God's will when they are not?

Also, crowd control = corruption? I don't understand your argument for this at all. So if a school has an honor code, it must be full of corruption because they are trying to tell students how to behave?

Why single out communism? Every system of government has rules and laws that are intended to control people's behaviors. Why do you think you get to write off your mortgage interest on your taxes. It isn't because God wants you to own a house, it's because the goverment wants people to buy homes. All laws are crowd control, pure and simple. Whether those laws come from a divine book, from a dictator, or from an elected body doesn't change that fact.

All good points here. I was thinking much of this, but couldn't find the words. Thanks, man.

[geoff]

msanch24- I think you missed my point a little bit. I said there is no scientific hard evidence to prove God, thats why it is called faith. I simply told you what the Bible ( what i base my faith on ) says about faith and how it comes about. I also invited you to call me and even attend church with me to see what Truth is according to the Bible.

For the second point I made- You all have made true statements, but in order to find truth and to obtain wisdom then all truths must be observed and considered. You can tell a tree by the fruits it bears. Evil men, whether trying to use " good" things, always flip the script i.e. Hitler, Stalin, ect....and I never said that crowd control=corruption. I said that power does and that the Bible could not be made up for crowd control because it claims divine inspiration which good men would not claim and contains and teaches high morality which evil men would not do. Read the contents of the Bible and what TRUE Christianity is supposed to be. Its sad but what we see in the mainstream Christian church is not what the bible preaches. And yes laws and such are needed, the provide structure and are the building blocks for civilization. But, the world has lost its sense of morality and values so why then has the Bible, unlike every other corrupt tool for control, stood for so long? For thousands of years the scriptures have stood, they have been validated, and have not changed with the times nor what the current generations state of morality is. Why is that? Because the Bible is the Living Gods' Word. It will forever stand and even when heaven and earth pass it will stand. Once you start to actually search with an open heart and mind you will see that there is more than just "words on a page". It speaks to you and your situation, it motivates you and will change your life.

nerdsrock22- I agree with what you are saying and it is true. But what you have to realize is that those underlying messages were for a church and a people of a certain time an that God was speaking to them. For one to start, build, and live by faith one only has to read the words for there literal meaning. What I meant by it flowing is that for a book that was written by many authors and over a long period of time it never contradicts itself. You would think that with time an different hands it would.

[msanch24]

msanch24- I think you missed my point a little bit. I said there is no scientific hard evidence to prove God, thats why it is called faith. I simply told you what the Bible ( what i base my faith on ) says about faith and how it comes about. I also invited you to call me and even attend church with me to see what Truth is according to the Bible.

For the second point I made- You all have made true statements, but in order to find truth and to obtain wisdom then all truths must be observed and considered. You can tell a tree by the fruits it bears. Evil men, whether trying to use " good" things, always flip the script i.e. Hitler, Stalin, ect....and I never said that crowd control=corruption. I said that power does and that the Bible could not be made up for crowd control because it claims divine inspiration which good men would not claim and contains and teaches high morality which evil men would not do. Read the contents of the Bible and what TRUE Christianity is supposed to be. Its sad but what we see in the mainstream Christian church is not what the bible preaches. And yes laws and such are needed, the provide structure and are the building blocks for civilization. But, the world has lost its sense of morality and values so why then has the Bible, unlike every other corrupt tool for control, stood for so long? For thousands of years the scriptures have stood, they have been validated, and have not changed with the times nor what the current generations state of morality is. Why is that? Because the Bible is the Living Gods' Word. It will forever stand and even when heaven and earth pass it will stand. Once you start to actually search with an open heart and mind you will see that there is more than just "words on a page". It speaks to you and your situation, it motivates you and will change your life.

nerdsrock22- I agree with what you are saying and it is true. But what you have to realize is that those underlying messages were for a church and a people of a certain time an that God was speaking to them. For one to start, build, and live by faith one only has to read the words for there literal meaning. What I meant by it flowing is that for a book that was written by many authors and over a long period of time it never contradicts itself. You would think that with time an different hands it would.

I didn't necessarily miss your point. I just can't see trying to explain to a nonbeliever how faith works using the bible. I've read the bible, studied the bible, and understand faith. I'm interested in your own words, not the words I've heard hundreds of times. Ya dig?

[quickdodge®]

see what Truth is according to the Bible.

I appreciate how you worded that.


Read the contents of the Bible and what TRUE Christianity is supposed to be.

1. Prejudge people.
2. Do not give others a second chance. Condemn them upon meeting if they don't share your beliefs.
3. Do what you can/have to to get people you don't like out of your life and every aspect of your life.

From my understanding, this is the main course of being a "True" Christian.


For thousands of years the scriptures have stood, they have been validated, and have not changed with the times nor what the current generations state of morality is.

Validated? Who did the validating? Did an expert in handwriting come in and verify that God himself wrote the Bible? Was it validated that God had a stenographer? No one has proven that the Bible is God's word.


Once you start to actually search with an open heart and mind you will see that there is more than just "words on a page". It speaks to you and your situation, it motivates you and will change your life.

So does Anthony Robbins. Is he God? It really sucks (but it is part of you being a Christian) that you always revert back to people having closed hearts when they don't believe your faith. Ever stop to think that maybe people DO have an open heart and that's why they choose NOT to believe?

Which reminds me of number four ion the list:

4. Talk down on people as if you're on a higher plane than they. Or better than them.

Later, QD.

[msanch24]

It really sucks (but it is part of you being a Christian) that you always revert back to people having closed hearts when they don't believe your faith. Ever stop to think that maybe people DO have an open heart and that's why they choose NOT to believe?


couldn't have said it better myself.

[bu villain]

If it were a tool used for crowed control then it would have been full of corruption


....and I never said that crowd control=corruption

Ok you didn't say they were equivalent, just 100% positively correlated.


the Bible could not be made up for crowd control because it claims divine inspiration which good men would not claim and contains and teaches high morality which evil men would not do.

This is the part I disagree with. I think "good" men could falsely claim divine inspiration.

[ahabion]

1. Prejudge people.
2. Do not give others a second chance. Condemn them upon meeting if they don't share your beliefs.
3. Do what you can/have to to get people you don't like out of your life and every aspect of your life.
4. Talk down on people as if you're on a higher plane than they. Or better than them.
From my understanding, this is the main course of being a "True" Christian.


Stereotype but well known within our churches.

Like all things, you have those who understand truth and those who understand what they want to understand. For example, the simple truth that opening your car's intake and exhaust air volume will add a bit more ponies to your car rather than putting on an exhaust tip. Or a huge wing to keep the down-force on the rear of your car rather than just to look cool. There are always those who understand the true purpose of things versus those who only understand what they want to... the bad part is that they tend to be the majority (or loudest) which makes it bad for everyone else.



Validated? Who did the validating? Did an expert in handwriting come in and verify that God himself wrote the Bible? Was it validated that God had a stenographer? No one has proven that the Bible is God's word.


Not really validation but writings and culture at the time follow accurately the books of the Bible. More philosophical evidence rather than empirical... just all depends on what you want to count and discount as evidence enough.




So does Anthony Robbins. Is he God? It really sucks (but it is part of you being a Christian) that you always revert back to people having closed hearts when they don't believe your faith. Ever stop to think that maybe people DO have an open heart and that's why they choose NOT to believe?
Later, QD.

You're absolutely right.

[quickdodge®]

the bad part is that they tend to be the majority (or loudest) which makes it bad for everyone else.

Exactly. I know not all Christians are that way, but the ones I've come into personal contact with lived high on the hog with that mentality. And for that, I distrust all of them.


Not really validation but writings and culture at the time follow accurately the books of the Bible. More philosophical evidence rather than empirical... just all depends on what you want to count and discount as evidence enough.

Being that there is NOT ONE shred of real evidence that God even exists, it has to be much harder to prove that He wrote the Book or that the Book is even of His words.


You're absolutely right.

Thank you. Later, QD.

[sport_122]

Exactly. I know not all Christians are that way, but the ones I've come into personal contact with lived high on the hog with that mentality. And for that, I distrust all of them.



Being that there is NOT ONE shred of real evidence that God even exists, it has to be much harder to prove that He wrote the Book or that the Book is even of His words.



Thank you. Later, QD.


Well the interesting dynamic of the scientific discussion is all the things that science has to ignore because of lack of evidence. There are tons of things that exist that people cannot provide physical proof or some sort of scientific evidence of. Do you love any one? Do you think logically? Do you ever plan your next day? Intuition...ever speak to someone who has deja vu? Science doesn't give you any reason to believe that these things exist beyond some chemical reaction in your body, but inside, the majority of us will admit that these are real things. So if we are to discredit all things that do not present a burden of proof towards their existence, then we are in trouble and we need to get rid of every school and every form of education, because even our desire to learn, our presupposed ability to logic, do not exist in science if we only use the physical evidence to determine reality.

A group of hundreds of men and women who would have witnessed the life of Christ and his resurrection being tested by threatening their lives, yet whatever they witnessed, was real enough for them to lives in fear, and only to be put to death by men who would call them to renounce what it was that they witnessed. This is one logical reason to believe that something serious went down.

[sport_122]

For me, souls are in all living things. Its the ability to reason, as well as the presence of emotions that separates us from other animals. A more intelligent animal will survive. Through evolution, the species gets more and more intelligent until it obtains the ability to reason. Pair that with emotion and bam, you've got yourself a human being.



Not sure if you are a Bio major or not, but I was and I don't think we got evolution right.

Depending on the numerous schools of thought, most believe evolution is either a guided act of selection to pass and carry on traits through DNA.

My issue is that evolution has some very large gaps in its foundations. I remember Richard Dawkins (Biology professor at Oxford and Neo Atheist) discussing evolution with John Lennox (Mathmetician and Theologian at Oxford)

He presented a case for a guided evolution which was not random (in his mind). To him evolution is a guided process on which we went from simple cells to complex cells. We went for billions of years to become what we are today.

Well the problem comes in with DNA. In the same sense, some professors credit DNA as the computing factor that drives evolution and development. Under this idea, the process of evolution is guided by the most complex code known to man. So evolutionists have seriously faulted in my mind when they have chosen to discuss the cellular model, but they leave out the method by which the majority of evolutionary biologists claim the process is guided. Scientists cannot explain DNA at its origins through evolutionary theories. This is the foundation that the entire argument must be supported on.

Also, if you haven't seen Ben Steins documentary "Expelled:No Intelligence Allowed" you should watch it. I experienced some of these things as and undergrad and my brother in law is experiencing them now. The interesting dynamic is how people who ask for scientific reasoning oftentimes don't realize that the scientific community is EXACTLY like the religious community. There is a status quo that effects a high majority of the fundamental beliefs, and to step outside of the status quo means you will be labeled and cast out...Try asking your professor to bring in a person who can really articulate alternative scientific oppositions to evolution and see what there response is.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AcademicFreedomism#grid/user/518AC93998A58A61

I mention all of this (seems a bit off topic) but it is mainly to make a statement that the battle between faith in God and Science is a myth. I think it is poison that is being taught to us as if it is the end all truth and there are tons of people out there propagating this crap.

[quickdodge®]

Well the interesting dynamic of the scientific discussion is all the things that science has to ignore because of lack of evidence. There are tons of things that exist that people cannot provide physical proof or some sort of scientific evidence of. Do you love any one? Do you think logically? Do you ever plan your next day? Intuition...ever speak to someone who has deja vu?

I'm not sure if you are trying to confuse me or not, but this reply doesn't make any sense. Three out of the four "examples" you just gave aren't even material items. Love, thought and intuition? Even if that made sense, you'd then have to discredit your belief in God. I mean since religion is a faith-based idea and faith is an intangible object much like love, thought and intuition, and you say that the latter three might not exist because of lack of scientific evidence, then you should toss faith right out the window as well.

As far as planning my days? Sure, that can be proven without a doubt. Most people have a calendar that they write their appointments or other plans on. I have one.


So if we are to discredit all things that do not present a burden of proof towards their existence, then we are in trouble and we need to get rid of every school and every form of education, because even our desire to learn, our presupposed ability to logic, do not exist in science if we only use the physical evidence to determine reality.

You do realize that we're talking about proving actual things or beings and not emotions and the mind? Two completely different things.


A group of hundreds of men and women who would have witnessed the life of Christ and his resurrection being tested by threatening their lives, yet whatever they witnessed, was real enough for them to lives in fear, and only to be put to death by men who would call them to renounce what it was that they witnessed. This is one logical reason to believe that something serious went down.

Or one logical reason that people were pretty gullible back then. In those days, they were obviously less people on Earth. There were less means of communication. There were more things that people didn't know about. It stands to reason that if something happened on Earth and the people did not have the capability or know-how to study it, then they would come to their conclusions.

You had the lady out in Conyers who reported seeing the Virgin Mary in a tree. She was able to convince thousands of people this. She made a shitload of money off that. Just shows you how gullible humans are. Later, QD.

[sport_122]

Thank you for a thought out response. I understand that faith is not a scientific (tangible as i called it in the OP) thing. But what starts someone believing? what jumpstarts faith? I (speaking just from my own POV and experience), have no reason at all to call faith a part of my life. im a logic based person. I see things for what they are. To me, faith is a romanticized version of the world we live in. My social life, my relationships, and my love are all parts of my soul. An internal thing that was obtained through evolution. Not an external thing like a god, or an internal thing caused by a god.


Logically how do you believe in your soul? Scientist will argue that there isn't one because it cannot be proven?
Just reading some of your posts I see some issues in your logic. I see where you actually mention things that you should not believe in if you are looking for hard evidence. How can we quantify the statement "your internal soul that was obtained through evolution"? This is where biology and spirituality collide at a brutal truth. The physical and the spiritual are real to all of us, whether we want to admit this or not, we ALL function off of our physical AND our spiritual being. Our physical being does not ache over loss until our spiritual being has given it the means by which we could experience those things. Love and hate and all that encompasses these things exist on the spiritual level and manifest themselves through our physical body. Very similar to how you would not doubt the existence of your soul, I would not doubt the existence of God.

For the Christian, God has demonstrated his existence and his power by showing that he has authority on both of those plans. Through Christ, we are given accounts of the physical by his healing, walking on water, resurrections, and the cross connection by seeing him command the spiritual while still being in his physical. Through the spirit we see the opposite relation and position of God. We see the spiritual commanding the physical. You asked what initiates belief? Belief NEVER starts with the physical. It can be influenced by the physical, but it doesn't start there. Belief is gained and it is a process over time. My belief in God and my faith in Christ as a redeemer rests on this process and those things that have proceeded my coming into faith in him.

I hope that makes sense. But I would apply it the same method by which you believe in your soul. I just also believe that these physical and the non begin with the non or even a third type of existence and culminate to what we are discovering or rediscovering as a creation of God.

[sport_122]

I'm not sure if you are trying to confuse me or not, but this reply doesn't make any sense. Three out of the four "examples" you just gave aren't even material items. Love, thought and intuition? Even if that made sense, you'd then have to discredit your belief in God. I mean since religion is a faith-based idea and faith is an intangible object much like love, thought and intuition, and you say that the latter three might not exist because of lack of scientific evidence, then you should toss faith right out the window as well.



Actually that is my point. There are things out there that we would say exist that cannot be proven by a scientific method. If we can agree that these things exist, yet are not physical and cannot be manifested in a physical way, then we are one step closer to understanding that there are such thing as "immaterial" things that exist not necessarily in a physical scientifically testable realm.

And if we want to take the step towards understanding that the immaterial does exist, and that these immaterial things are not going to be Sci method type things then we also have to understand that when we question these things we have to remember that they will be understood as immaterial things. This will change our questions entirely.

So instead of : "Is God real, prove it?" you get "validate your belief in God"
instead of: "Scientifically prove your love for your family" its "How do you validate or how can you manifest love to your family?"

basically saying you would not use algebra to try to understand shakespeare. And you would not use Hamlet to solve calculus. These are two different types of understandings that require two different types of fact finding methods. I hope that is clearer...

In these threads we are always seeing people ask questions that are about taking one plane of understanding to "prove" the other, when "proof" is a loaded word, and one plane is metaphysical and cannot be tested by the physical methods of the other. This is a HUGE logical fallacy that plagues these types of discussions. Using apples to describe define bananas.

[quickdodge®]

Actually that is my point. There are things out there that we would say exist that cannot be proven by a scientific method. If we can agree that these things exist, yet are not physical and cannot be manifested in a physical way, then we are one step closer to understanding that there are such thing as "immaterial" things that exist not necessarily in a physical scientifically testable realm.

I understand your point. Knowing that God was NOT an actual person, but was/is some sort of spirit, we move to the next step in the proofs that a lot of people seek. It is said that the Bible is God's word. There we go. We have an actual thing, in our hands, that we can touch and hold. We don't have to prove the Bible's existence. Again, the closest anyone will ever come to knowing if it is really God's word is only by believing it is His word. This will never be proven. The events that take place in the Bible aren't provable. It can't be proven that Jesus died and was resurrected. All these are just stories to be told. Later, QD.

[msanch24]

Not sure if you are a Bio major or not, but I was and I don't think we got evolution right.


Actually I am :goodjob:

[sport_122]

I understand your point. Knowing that God was NOT an actual person, but was/is some sort of spirit, we move to the next step in the proofs that a lot of people seek. It is said that the Bible is God's word. There we go. We have an actual thing, in our hands, that we can touch and hold. We don't have to prove the Bible's existence. Again, the closest anyone will ever come to knowing if it is really God's word is only by believing it is His word. This will never be proven. The events that take place in the Bible aren't provable. It can't be proven that Jesus died and was resurrected. All these are just stories to be told. Later, QD.

that is what I am saying...sort of.

We cannot go back in time to see events, but just like we can read recent history and cross check some of the facts with other references we have the ability to determine that some things given in our historical documents are reasonably accurate. Take the revolutionary war, take the crusades, wwI and II, historical conquests etc. these things can be read and we can always find documents that are written to support or discredit those things that are historically inaccurate.

When I read the accounts as written in the Bible, study other pieces of historical documents and bring in simple reason, I find that there is a very very convincing case to support Christ as having performed miracles, being resurrected, and ascending with many witnesses. And with all of the surreal stories surrounding Christ, you would expect to see tons of documents from that period discrediting these events if they were not in fact understood to have happened like we see them written. Even today, when a news report is written that is remotely inaccurate, there are a dozen reports following that serve the purpose of shedding light on inaccuracies. For such an incredible story surrounding Christ and at least three resurrections (A child, Lazarus, and Christ), you would imagine that someone would have immediately gone whistle blower if these things were not true or complete fabrications. Especially since being a follower of Christ was very unpopular amongst the traditional Jewish community.

There are tons more things like this, but this is just a glimpse into my reasoning.

[geoff]

well i have to step in again, the bible can be validated because its claims have come to pass. Look even at the prophecies of the Messiah, they were written thousands of years before Jesus yet He fulfilled each and every one of them. And before you say that you cant prove Jesus was real based only on writings of the time or documents; prove to me then that Ghengis Khan was real, prove to me that Julius Caesar was real or even George Washington. You readily believe these men were real because there is historical writings of them and paintings even. Guess what, the same goes for Jesus Christ, yet when it comes to Him we dismiss the evidence but easily accept that of other historical figures. I say a closed heart becuase the bible says thats what it is. We have come to an age that the bible calls the end times, " 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was." 2 timothy 3:1-9. The world will soon change, even those without faith can sense it, that something big is getting ready to happen. The bible tells of this too. Soon the whole world shall see the false christ rise up and those who had hard hearts and chose to dismiss Jesus will worship him until the Lord comes down from heaven and all shall see Him and all shall bow down and confess that He is Lord. Go ahead, tell me that using scriptures doesnt count or matter, i say the same for those that quote studies or writings of atheistic scholars. My faith is built and based on the bible. I see all this discussion going back and forth and many of you arguing against faith yet not one person has accepted my challenge. Come to my church, listen to a bible believing, doctrine preaching man of God, feel the Holy Spirit move and pull at your heart, listen as the Lord speaks to your heart and then tell me you don't believe in God. I have witnessed many non believers break at an alter when God moved.

[msanch24]

well i have to step in again, the bible can be validated because its claims have come to pass. Look even at the prophecies of the Messiah, they were written thousands of years before Jesus yet He fulfilled each and every one of them. And before you say that you cant prove Jesus was real based only on writings of the time or documents; prove to me then that Ghengis Khan was real, prove to me that Julius Caesar was real or even George Washington. You readily believe these men were real because there is historical writings of them and paintings even. Guess what, the same goes for Jesus Christ, yet when it comes to Him we dismiss the evidence but easily accept that of other historical figures. I say a closed heart becuase the bible says thats what it is. We have come to an age that the bible calls the end times, " 1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was." 2 timothy 3:1-9. The world will soon change, even those without faith can sense it, that something big is getting ready to happen. The bible tells of this too. Soon the whole world shall see the false christ rise up and those who had hard hearts and chose to dismiss Jesus will worship him until the Lord comes down from heaven and all shall see Him and all shall bow down and confess that He is Lord. Go ahead, tell me that using scriptures doesnt count or matter, i say the same for those that quote studies or writings of atheistic scholars. My faith is built and based on the bible. I see all this discussion going back and forth and many of you arguing against faith yet not one person has accepted my challenge. Come to my church, listen to a bible believing, doctrine preaching man of God, feel the Holy Spirit move and pull at your heart, listen as the Lord speaks to your heart and then tell me you don't believe in God. I have witnessed many non believers break at an alter when God moved.

I wouldnt argue that jesus wasn't real. I would however argue that jesus did not turn water into wine, or walk on water, or any of that.

And honestly man, I've been taught Christianity from day one from many different people with different perspectives, and it has only made me less of a believer. I tend to think logically based on proven evidence, rather than believe everything that is fed to me through preaching and the bible. No offense, but I just dont believe in a church that preaches. To me, churches ought to be nothing more than tight communities of people who have a relationship with god. this is important since every believers relationship with god is different, and should never be led in any other direction than that. Churches dont need preachers. Plain and simple.

[quickdodge®]

the bible can be validated because its claims have come to pass.

Lolol. I can set a bush on fire and say, "LOOK!!! The burning bush!" That makes the Bible real.


And before you say that you cant prove Jesus was real based only on writings of the time or documents; prove to me then that Ghengis Khan was real, prove to me that Julius Caesar was real or even George Washington. You readily believe these men were real because there is historical writings of them and paintings even.

First off, who said anything about Jesus not being real? No one. It's his "feats" that are completely unbelievable.

As far as the historical figures? George Washington might not be a real person? Did you mean to type another person's name? You can't compare a general in a war or an ex-President (something that can easily be believed) with someone who supposedly walked on water or rose from the dead or any of the other "talents" he is written to have had. That's apples vs. RWD Hondas. Later, QD.

[geoff]

Msanch24: I can see your point, but one can not believe based on mans opinion or teachings. We as believers are supposed to plant and water the seed. Its God that gives the increase. The Holy Spirit is what draws men and fills them and builds faith. You seem like a man that if shown God or if u had an encounter with diety that you would believe. I like your responses and reasoning, it shows a thirst and hunger. I offer you a chance to come experience what I have. I wont cinvince you of anything, simply take you to see God at work and feel His Spirit call to you. I offer aomething abnormal to this world. If you truly are seeking answers, I offer you a meeting with Jesus. Afterwards you can decide on your own. Do you accept?

[msanch24]

Msanch24: I can see your point, but one can not believe based on mans opinion or teachings. We as believers are supposed to plant and water the seed. Its God that gives the increase. The Holy Spirit is what draws men and fills them and builds faith. You seem like a man that if shown God or if u had an encounter with diety that you would believe. I like your responses and reasoning, it shows a thirst and hunger. I offer you a chance to come experience what I have. I wont cinvince you of anything, simply take you to see God at work and feel His Spirit call to you. I offer aomething abnormal to this world. If you truly are seeking answers, I offer you a meeting with Jesus. Afterwards you can decide on your own. Do you accept?

Honestly? No. I am severely confident that you can't show me anything I haven't already been shown. And I also don't think it is man's task to "water the seed". By word of mouth, the word is planted, but only through faith should the seed grow. I don't have the faith, plain and simple.

[geoff]

What do you have to lose? And your last sentence re confirms what I said about God giving the increase. It sounds to me like you have no faith cuz men failed you, im sorry.

[msanch24]

What do you have to lose? And your last sentence re confirms what I said about God giving the increase. It sounds to me like you have no faith cuz men failed you, im sorry.

Not to sound rude, but how you're talking now is the very reason why i want nothing to do with christianity, church, or anything of the sort. Faith is not communicated through man. Even the atheist knows that.

[geoff]

I dont see how but I will pray for you. maybe you might change your mind

[quickdodge®]

Msanch24: I can see your point, but one can not believe based on mans opinion or teachings. We as believers are supposed to plant and water the seed. Its God that gives the increase. The Holy Spirit is what draws men and fills them and builds faith. You seem like a man that if shown God or if u had an encounter with diety that you would believe. I like your responses and reasoning, it shows a thirst and hunger. I offer you a chance to come experience what I have. I wont cinvince you of anything, simply take you to see God at work and feel His Spirit call to you. I offer aomething abnormal to this world. If you truly are seeking answers, I offer you a meeting with Jesus. Afterwards you can decide on your own. Do you accept?

Lolol @ ignoring a reasonable response. I guess it's because you're too good and above me to respond. Later, QD.

[geoff]

No thats not it at all qd. I just dont ser the point of arguing a point when no one would yake up my challenge. It shows me that it would not matter what evidences are given, God could come down and show Himself to you, your closed up to any possiblity of Him being real

[msanch24]

No thats not it at all qd. I just dont ser the point of arguing a point when no one would yake up my challenge. It shows me that it would not matter what evidences are given, God could come down and show Himself to you, your closed up to any possiblity of Him being real

Get out of this thread man. Religion is not a "challenge". It's not like we're fighting you, saying "betcha five bucks you cant convert me". Why do i have to keep educating you on the subject, while you carry yourself to be some all knowing christian? This was a thread for discussion, not for "saving" people. you stated how you feel, you offered (some) light on certain situations. Now, we don't want to go get preached out by the very institutions that cause us to question. I fail to see where we are being "closed up". Just get out of here.

[quickdodge®]

your closed up to any possiblity of Him being real

You're an idiot, man. You don't get it at all, dude. According to you, everything you say is true and nothing else is. It's your way or the highway, you know?

You should:


Just get out of here.

Later, QD.

[geoff]

Yes your hearts are hardened and blinded. You ignore any possibility that God is real cuz a lack of scientific evidencr. Who are you that God would have to prove Himself? Lack of evidence, hypocritical christians, peoples opinions is a cause for you to not have faith and you mock them and call it all ridiculous? Tell that to the thousands of christians around the world being persecuted, losing life, liberty, possesion and all they hold dear. Tell them their belief is primitive and you just cant find a good reason to have faith. God came in flesh 2000 years ago as Jesus to be shamed and die on a cross for humanity, that we might be free from sin, corruption, death and destruction. He died for you that you should live and have a personal felationship with Him. And you cant find a logical reason for faith? In order to have faith you must open your eyes and heart to the unknown and unseen. At the end of the day believe it or not, He is still God.

[msanch24]

Yes your hearts are hardened and blinded. You ignore any possibility that God is real cuz a lack of scientific evidencr. Who are you that God would have to prove Himself? Lack of evidence, hypocritical christians, peoples opinions is a cause for you to not have faith and you mock them and call it all ridiculous? Tell that to the thousands of christians around the world being persecuted, losing life, liberty, possesion and all they hold dear. Tell them their belief is primitive and you just cant find a good reason to have faith. God came in flesh 2000 years ago as Jesus to be shamed and die on a cross for humanity, that we might be free from sin, corruption, death and destruction. He died for you that you should live and have a personal felationship with Him. And you cant find a logical reason for faith? In order to have faith you must open your eyes and heart to the unknown and unseen. At the end of the day believe it or not, He is still God.

You're completely missing the point, man. This thread just isn't for you. Please, just don't come in here anymore.

[quickdodge®]

Who are you that God would have to prove Himself?

And who are you to tell me who I am? You haven't read one bit of this thread, man. You're just blindly posting to up your post count. You need to lose this "I'm a Christian, so I'm right" attitude. That why your kind gets the shitty rep it has.


You're completely missing the point, man. This thread just isn't for you. Please, just don't come in here anymore.

Exactly. Until you can actually read what's being posted, please refrain from posting in this thread. Later, QD.

[RL...]

I think it's ridiculous that Christians, while they are entitled to believe what they want(and may or may not be right), are so quickly to forget that their religious beliefs are 100% based on faith. The bible is the foundation of Christianity, and it takes faith to believe in the bible. You can't prove those stories or the people in them actually happened or lived. Just because you say "oh well THEY have found old documents proving it happened or he lived", well where are these so called "they" and their so called "documents and proof" located? Why haven't they come out in public and proved Christianity's validity yet?

An argument is only as strong as the foundation it's built upon, which in this case happens to be faith which is something you can not prove. So then what is Christianity really based on, ideas and information that can not be proved, which where I come from amounts to not shit.

[msanch24]

Very true, and for many, I think it all begins at a very young age, with the force feeding of Christianity's "validity" by the parents, the preachers, and the community. I prefer to take an inductive stance. Things are not true until proven.

[Echonova]

You can't prove those stories or the people in them actually happened or lived. Just because you say "oh well THEY have found old documents proving it happened or he lived", well where are these so called "they" and their so called "documents and proof" located? Why haven't they come out in public and proved Christianity's validity yet? Might be nothing, might be something, too early to tell. But this was on Yahoo this morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110330/ts_yblog_thelookout/could-lead-codices-prove-the-major-discovery-of-christian-history

But you do understand what your asking? "Where is the 2,000 year old piece of paper (papyrus)?"

Hell, Obama can't seem to find his birth certificate and how old is he?

[msanch24]

haha

[RL...]

Might be nothing, might be something, too early to tell. But this was on Yahoo this morning.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110330/ts_yblog_thelookout/could-lead-codices-prove-the-major-discovery-of-christian-history

But you do understand what your asking? "Where is the 2,000 year old piece of paper (papyrus)?"



Hell, Obama can't seem to find his birth certificate and how old is he?


So just because our president is incompentent means we should give the quest for religious validation less scrutiny? hellz nawwww son

All I'm saying is that there is no concrete proof out there. If there was we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Just because you believe a book to be true doesn't make it so.

[Echonova]

Indeed, much the same way just because you believe a book is fictional, doesn't mean that it is. But this is the crux of religious debates, people wanting proof of what cannot be proven... Well, not by "circumstantial" evidence (in the eyes of a non-believer). But the good thing about my faith is it does not require you to believe, nor does it require me to force my beliefs upon you. I'm not here to change your mind, but merely to point out you will never change mine either. We are all free to worship "God"... or not. That's part of the beauty of free will.

I doubt any serious followers of Allah would give you the same choice given the right opportunity. But it's politically incorrect to make fun of them.

Christians are often the target of ridicule (much like the purpose if this thread, no meaningful knowledge was ever sought IMO) because of our views... Get one to stray from whatever your view of "righteousness" is, and we're all hypocrites right? While there are hypocrites in this world, I'll be the first to admit I'm no Saint that people should follow either. I'm a simple man just like you. I happened to find some (not all) of the answers I was looking for in Church or to a larger extent God. Maybe your answers are elsewhere... IDK.

With all that being said, I cannot fathom the thought that somehow we just won the Galactic lottery with the Big Bang and by some random coincidence just "happened" to form from a primordial ooze from some random anomaly that occurred Trillions of years ago. If I believed that why would I spend one nanosecond of any of the insignificant time that my tiny speck of existence allows on arguing anything on the internet. I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.

Right?













































There is no such thing as coincidence.

[bu villain]

I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.

Right?

Please don't equate non religousness with lack of morality and anarchism. That's just as offensive as the ridicule your are decrying.

I must quickly respond to two of your points:
1. Your implication that many hold the belief that only what we can see and touch is true is innacurate. Noone can directly see or feel that a star is a gaseous ball millions of miles away but I doubt anyone in this thread would deny that's what stars are.

2. Your characterizations of the big bang and the evolution of the universe as being "random" are also not accurate. Just because we don't know why certain things are the way they are doesn't mean it must be random. Just as rolling a die is not random despite how it appears. If you knew all the starting factors (starting angle and velocity, friction of the table, weighting of the die, etc) you could calculate how the die would end up before it was rolled.

I don't mean to insult you in any way but I just wanted to inform you that you may be unintentionally joining in a practice which it seems you do not condone. I think if many religous people simply stated, many of their beliefs were scientifically unproveable or even sometimes illogical, but never the less felt undeniable to them and helped them to lead more fulfilled and enjoyable lives, there would be a lot less animosity between the religious and non-religious groups.

[msanch24]

(much like the purpose if this thread, no meaningful knowledge was ever sought IMO)

What the hell? I'm not allowed to question? To ask for discussion? I may not be easily influenced, but I'm offended by this statement. I'm on the search for evidence. Reason to believe. Because you are unable to give me this, you infer that the thread is a mockery?

[ahabion]

2. Your characterizations of the big bang and the evolution of the universe as being "random" are also not accurate. Just because we don't know why certain things are the way they are doesn't mean it must be random. Just as rolling a die is not random despite how it appears. If you knew all the starting factors (starting angle and velocity, friction of the table, weighting of the die, etc) you could calculate how the die would end up before it was rolled.

Intelligent Design!



I don't mean to insult you in any way but I just wanted to inform you that you may be unintentionally joining in a practice which it seems you do not condone. I think if many religous people simply stated, many of their beliefs were scientifically unproveable or even sometimes illogical, but never the less felt undeniable to them and helped them to lead more fulfilled and enjoyable lives, there would be a lot less animosity between the religious and non-religious groups.

You sir, speak of faith! :yes:

Bu, by your very definition summarized the entirety of this section of the forum, in all seriousness. From a Christian viewpoint, God is scientifically unprovable, very much tangibly and humanly illogical or a complete wonder/mystery, but yet completely undeniable for those who call God, Abba, and who thus will live a more fulfilled life through faith.

[bu villain]

Intelligent Design!

Ah yes! What was I thinking.



You sir, speak of faith! :yes:

Bu, by your very definition summarized the entirety of this section of the forum, in all seriousness. From a Christian viewpoint, God is scientifically unprovable, very much tangibly and humanly illogical or a complete wonder/mystery, but yet completely undeniable for those who call God, Abba, and who thus will live a more fulfilled life through faith.

Yes exactly! But many people of faith try to convince others that their religious beliefs are based on scientific evidence, rather than just faith. And that's where conflict often begins.

[Echonova]

What the hell? I'm not allowed to question? To ask for discussion? I may not be easily influenced, but I'm offended by this statement. I'm on the search for evidence. Reason to believe. Because you are unable to give me this, you infer that the thread is a mockery?Uh... Yeah. If you truly wanted a reason to believe you would be doing the research for yourself, not relying on random people from the internet to feed you potentially "false" information.

You're asking on a automotive-based internet forum... For someone to prove God exists to you.


GLWS

"OMG post #143 changed my life"... Could happen, just saying it's not likely.


But you go on being offended.

[RL...]

exactly my point, religious people in general need to stop acting like their beliefs aren't exclusively based on faith, which they are.

[msanch24]

Uh... Yeah. If you truly wanted a reason to believe you would be doing the research for yourself, not relying on random people from the internet to feed you potentially "false" information.

You're asking on a automotive-based internet forum... For someone to prove God exists to you.


GLWS

"OMG post #143 changed my life"... Could happen, just saying it's not likely.


But you go on being offended.

I look everywhere for information. I read and talk with as many people as possible. If that means asking a forum that I frequent, then "uh... yeah", I do that. Don't think you're so special that this is my first exploration in the matter. I have gotten some GREAT responses by the people in this thread, as well as a new list of books to read.

You can keep the shit to yourself in here, man. You have absolutely no reason to think that I had mocking intentions.

[ahabion]

exactly my point, religious people in general need to stop acting like their beliefs aren't exclusively based on faith, which they are.

If people are trying to look for scientific evidence of God, then they're barking up the wrong tree. Faith is well defined in Christian Biblical scripture. For those who would call themselves Christians need not tangible evidence to see but rather the evidence in which Christians seek 'should' be apparent in their everyday life, which should be to conduct and live a life worthy of the Gospel.

To clarify your statement more RL... for those who would say otherwise, they must continue to renew their minds. For were it not by faith, then there is nothing else to talk about. Tell them to read Hebrews 11 (the whole chapter) and the beginning of chapter 12. Then you will be right, they would have been wrong, and in doing so, the hope is that they would be enlightened.

[Echonova]

I look everywhere for information. I read and talk with as many people as possible. If that means asking a forum that I frequent, then "uh... yeah", I do that. Don't think you're so special that this is my first exploration in the matter. I have gotten some GREAT responses by the people in this thread, as well as a new list of books to read.

You can keep the shit to yourself in here, man. You have absolutely no reason to think that I had mocking intentions.Did you not read your first post? It absolutely drips with sarcasm.


Convince me to believe in a god.

What's your indisputable, scientific, hard evidence? I don't mean "because the bible says so". Or "I knew a guy who died and God made him breathe again". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept a faith.

I await enlightenment.Why only God?

Perhaps your answers are with Allah in the Qur'an

Or Hinduism, read the 4 Vedas, 18 Puranas and thousands of other texts, prominent amongst them being, Bhagawat Gita,Ramayana and Mahabharata

Why only Christianity? Why are you only looking to have such a narrow dogmatic view of the world?

Prove to me your serious about learning and we can talk.


But I want indisputable, scientific, hard evidence your serious. I don't mean "because the I said so". Or "I knew a guy who read the Bible once and believed in God after". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept your serious.


I await enlightenment.

[msanch24]

Did you not read your first post? It absolutely drips with sarcasm.

Why only God?

Perhaps your answers are with Allah in the Qur'an

Or Hinduism, read the 4 Vedas, 18 Puranas and thousands of other texts, prominent amongst them being, Bhagawat Gita,Ramayana and Mahabharata

Why only Christianity? Why are you only looking to have such a narrow dogmatic view of the world?

Prove to me your serious about learning and we can talk.


But I want indisputable, scientific, hard evidence your serious. I don't mean "because the I said so". Or "I knew a guy who read the Bible once and believed in God after". Give me a tangible, logical reason to accept your serious.


I await enlightenment.

See, the great thing about it is, I don't have to prove shit to you. You interpreted it as sarcasm. Well, that's not my fault, man. That would be your own cynical outlook that caused that. Take this to PM's so you don't clutter up my thread anymore. Otherwise, turn the other cheek and get out of here. (see, that was mockery). And if you feel the need to flex your big "mod muscles" (like so many of you have been lately) and ban me or close this thread, well, then that will just mean that I won this argument, I guess.

[Nerdsrock22]

If I believed that why would I spend one nanosecond of any of the insignificant time that my tiny speck of existence allows on arguing anything on the internet. I would spend my time wisely by raping and pillaging anything and everything I could, because... What's the point of going to some mundane job everyday and obeying some "laws" another human being tried to place on me as a form of "control"? All there is to this world is what I can see and touch.


This. I seriously don't understand why atheists bother fitting into society. If there is no Greater morality, then why even bother?

[msanch24]

This. I seriously don't understand why atheists bother fitting into society. If there is no Greater morality, then why even bother?

Makes for some troublesome thoughts for sure.

But let me try to offer my POV anyway.

I look for the little things, you know? Those tiny little things in life that generate such a large emotional response. I've talked about music before. My guitars are my best friends. I had any instance one time where music literally saved my life. Since then, I try my damnedest to pay my respects by making the best music i possibly can. You could almost call it my religion.

But that's quite a big thing isn't it? In those big things, are all the little things that make life worth living to the best of your ability. It is only by fitting into society that I can perpetuate my participation in these things. If I went around raping and pillaging, well, sooner or later I'd be caught and thrown in jail or sentenced to death. That would be the end of my music, the end of everything that makes me love life (cars, nature, friends).

I'm finding it hard to put the right words down, but I hope i offer some decent points.

[Nerdsrock22]

Makes for some troublesome thoughts for sure.

But let me try to offer my POV anyway.

I look for the little things, you know? Those tiny little things in life that generate such a large emotional response. I've talked about music before. My guitars are my best friends. I had any instance one time where music literally saved my life. Since then, I try my damnedest to pay my respects by making the best music i possibly can. You could almost call it my religion.

But that's quite a big thing isn't it? In those big things, are all the little things that make life worth living to the best of your ability. It is only by fitting into society that I can perpetuate my participation in these things. If I went around raping and pillaging, well, sooner or later I'd be caught and thrown in jail or sentenced to death. That would be the end of my music, the end of everything that makes me love life (cars, nature, friends). It had to be ingrained into our being with purpose.

I'm finding it hard to put the right words down, but I hope i offer some decent points.

No, that makes perfect sense. And I'm definitely on the same page as you with music (and cars, nature, and friends) for that matter. But it's in those things and through those things that I worship God. I think I made this point earlier, but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

[msanch24]

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integrate part of humanity's existence.

Now this I understand...Very well made point. I'll have to mill this one over...

[Echonova]

See, the great thing about it is, I don't have to prove shit to you. You interpreted it as sarcasm. Well, that's not my fault, man. That would be your own cynical outlook that caused that. Take this to PM's so you don't clutter up my thread anymore. Otherwise, turn the other cheek and get out of here. (see, that was mockery). And if you feel the need to flex your big "mod muscles" (like so many of you have been lately) and ban me or close this thread, well, then that will just mean that I won this argument, I guess.As I don't have "shit to prove to you" either. How have I used my "God" (or Mod) powers in any way during this debate? My intention is not to shut-down your argument, but merely defend it with the same criteria that you demand of proof. I have no personal beef with you, or your beliefs and I apologize if you took any of it that way.

Just merely trying to illustrate the absurd by being absurd.

Personally, I think it's great you are on a quest for higher learning. I hope you follow in the same vein as C.S. Lewis and others that set out to looking for proof, or for lack of a better term to "disprove" God. If you don't know C.S.Lewis was raised in Christianity and he later described his young self as being paradoxically "very angry with God for not existing"... J.R.R. Tolkien and others were instrumental in his return to faith. I doubt that journey was easy or without disagreement.

Not sure where me locking this thread and you winning comes into play... Perhaps you think I'm upset at your view?

Quite the contrary.

As Thomas Jefferson once wrote... "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."

I would you rather disbelieve in God rather than follow from some blind faith. God has proven his existence to me, however none of which could be proved by the guidelines you set forth during the initial post. I don't think anyone can "prove" God given the limitations of your opening statement.

But I do wish you only the best in your journey.

[bu villain]

I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Reality doesn't require you to be able to imagine it.


Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

Skills and asthetics are clearly useful in the "natural animal world" (strange term). Also you shouldn't assume nature is some perfect process where nothing unnecessary happens, evolution is perfectly efficient, etc. Something you may or may not find interesting:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/01/0105biomusic.html

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

[Nerdsrock22]

Reality doesn't require you to be able to imagine it.

I don't admit that it isn't speculative, else I would have worded it in a different way. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have everything figured out. I still ask myself these questions all the time and struggle with the tough issues. Any Christian who doesn't hasn't thought about. That being said, speculation is prevalent in both science and faith. Unless you somehow obtained omniscience, you are going to have to fill in the holes at some point.



Skills and asthetics are clearly useful in the "natural animal world" (strange term). Also you shouldn't assume nature is some perfect process where nothing unnecessary happens, evolution is perfectly efficient, etc. Something you may or may not find interesting:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/01/0105biomusic.html


Interesting article. I have no doubt that animals can make pretty sounding noises. Call it music if you want, but it's not art anymore than a flower's petals are a work of it's own design. Until I see a whale create a song that communicates complex abstract ideas through that medium, I stand unconvinced.


As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.

I'll retract that statement.

[Echonova]

As someone who considers themself an ethical atheist. I would be glad to answer any of your questions regarding why I don't go around murdering and stealing from everyone I meet.I'll bite.


Why not?

[wanggsticky]

I'm trying to seek for higher truth as well and I was wondering, does the Bible go into explanation of the never ending universe; galaxies, stars, dark matter, maybe even aliens[ if they were of any existence ]?

Not trying to change the subject, it's just what I'm studying is all based on scientific reasoning (astronomy) , which makes me wonder the question I've stated above.

[bu villain]

Unless you somehow obtained omniscience, you are going to have to fill in the holes at some point.

While I agree it is worthwile to seek those answers, I don't feel there is anything wrong with not knowing the answer to many of those big mysteries.


Interesting article. I have no doubt that animals can make pretty sounding noises. Call it music if you want, but it's not art anymore than a flower's petals are a work of it's own design. Until I see a whale create a song that communicates complex abstract ideas through that medium, I stand unconvinced.

It sounds like we just disagree with the definition of music. Someone can play Mary had a little lamb on their phone (which is music), but I don't see what complex abstract idea that is trying to get across. The main idea of the article is that some animals make sounds which match the patterns of human music that don't seem to serve any utilitarian purpose.

[bu villain]

I'll bite.


Why not?

Just a few

1. I don't want to go to jail
2. I don't want someone's family or friends coming after me
3. If I act this way, others may be more likely to also act this way which could in turn cause me pain later
4. If I attack someone, they may be able to defend themselves and hurt me
5. My job has a better hourly rate than robbing random people
6. Blood is messy

[Echonova]

5. My job has a better hourly rate than robbing random peopleAmen.

[ahabion]

I'm trying to seek for higher truth as well and I was wondering, does the Bible go into explanation of the never ending universe; galaxies, stars, dark matter, maybe even aliens[ if they were of any existence ]?

Not trying to change the subject, it's just what I'm studying is all based on scientific reasoning (astronomy) , which makes me wonder the question I've stated above.

Other than what is stated from the initial creation and the very end, no.

[RL...]

No, that makes perfect sense. And I'm definitely on the same page as you with music (and cars, nature, and friends) for that matter. But it's in those things and through those things that I worship God. I think I made this point earlier, but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

Art (be it music, photography, or car modification) is to me, one of the greatest indications of a higher power. It has no use in the natural "animal" world, and thus, has had no reason to evolve and become an integral part of humanity's existence.

People listen to music for things like entertainment and relaxing which, I mean come on what animals don't like to relax? People take pictures because for entertainment and for jobs to earn money to buy food and to keep ourselves sheltered which is natural instinct. People mod cars because we are reckless animals that like doing stupid shit and getting adrenaline rushes and also because a nice car is a status symbol which can help us get girls to reproduce with, all very basic instincts. See, all natural stuff here. =D

[quickdodge®]

but I can't imagine that any of those things (or at least appreciation of them) would exist without intentionally being created.

But you can imagine an unseen spirit just saying "let it be" and it is?

I'm not attacking you as I see both sides of the debate. Hard to imagine an explosion creating this, but it's also hard to think that something/someone that can never be proven to exist just said "let it be."

To me, it's completely fascinating. Later, QD.

[Nerdsrock22]

But you can imagine an unseen spirit just saying "let it be" and it is?

I'm not attacking you as I see both sides of the debate. Hard to imagine an explosion creating this, but it's also hard to think that something/someone that can never be proven to exist just said "let it be."

To me, it's completely fascinating. Later, QD.

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.

[bu villain]

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.

If all Christians shared these sentiments (and many do), the world would be a better place and Christianity would not be bashed the way it often is now. Of course, this is all in my opinion.

[Nerdsrock22]

If all Christians shared these sentiments (and many do), the world would be a better place and Christianity would not be bashed the way it often is now. Of course, this is all in my opinion.

It's the greatest tragedy that the Christian church has been used by evil men for evil motives throughout history.

[msanch24]

Perhaps Christianity isn't the culprit. Maybe it's the scapegoat.

Just thinking out loud. Good point, Andy. ^^

[Nerdsrock22]

Imagine if you read about a serial killer tomorrow who went out and killed hundreds of pig farmers in the name of Judaism, giving the Jewish law against pork. He'd be rightfully labeled a lunatic and a corrupter of Jewish traditions. He becomes the antithesis to the average Jew. You take someone like Fred Phelps from Westboro Church however, and everyone lumps those crazies in with the rest of American Christians, when in reality, the truth couldn't be farther away.

[msanch24]

Imagine if you read about a serial killer tomorrow who went out and killed hundreds of pig farmers in the name of Judaism, giving the Jewish law against pork. He'd be rightfully labeled a lunatic and a corrupter of Jewish traditions. He becomes the antithesis to the average Jew. You take someone like Fred Phelps from Westboro Church however, and everyone lumps those crazies in with the rest of American Christians, when in reality, the truth couldn't be farther away.

True. "It is never the ideology, rather man's ability to bastardize even the purest of intentions".

[quickdodge®]

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist.

Just as I'm not anti-God by any means. I drive about 450-500 miles 5 days a week. As much as I can, I love to drive them on back roads; country roads. I love the scenery and picturing it as I think it would be if there were no civilization there. Either way we got here has to be an amazing, fascinating story/event. I always think that if there truly is a God that did all this, that He did make one mistake....and it's a doozy of one, too.

He put humans here. Later, QD.

[ahabion]

Great point. I won't pretend to say that I came to my beliefs through a scientific and reasoned march through logistic deduction. But frankly, I don't think I have to. When I examine what I see in the world, and how it interacts with itself, and what makes people truly happy, Christianity makes the most sense to me. Self-sacrifice, humility, peace, respect, kindness, justice and forgiveness are what I need, and in my belief, what the world needs. If at the end of it, it's all a sham, I can stand tall (or lay dead) knowing that I lived a good life that wasn't in vain.

But don't peg me as some kind of anti-science fundamentalist. I see God and science as perfect partners, and scientific discovery can find itself threaded with theology, and vice versa. Quantum mechanics, evolutionary theory, relative theory are all perfect compliments to Christianity in my opinion. If science discovers something radical and seemingly contradictory with my idea of God, that doesn't mean God is somehow discounted or "proved" wrong, only that our idea of God, what we "created" him as was incorrect.

I'm sure it was just lack of better terms but I wouldn't put 'partnered'... I would more venture to say that the evidence found in scientific findings could speculate that it could lead back to God. To say the otherwise would mean, to me, that God is no higher than what we as men can justify; that certainly is not my God.

[Nerdsrock22]

I'm sure it was just lack of better terms but I wouldn't put 'partnered'... I would more venture to say that the evidence found in scientific findings could speculate that it could lead back to God. To say the otherwise would mean, to me, that God is no higher than what we as men can justify; that certainly is not my God.

That was not my intent. I believe that was holds true for God must hold true in nature, that they are part of the same truth.