fully built ls

[JVP]

Got a question how many HP can get with a fully built b18b1 ????

[.:Stirfry:.]

good luck hitting close to 200.. but probably 160-180

[jadakid88]

fuck hp tq wins races..lol

[.:Stirfry:.]

lol

[BABY J]

You can make 190+ streetable. Don't be fooled by the number - your TQ production will come on EARLY and a 190hp LS will make a 210 - 220hp vtec motor look silly. But you have to pay to play to build something like this.

[Sylent Nite]

You can make 190+ streetable. Don't be fooled by the number - your TQ production will come on EARLY and a 190hp LS will make a 210 - 220hp vtec motor look silly. But you have to pay to play to build something like this.


Care to elaborate on this a little further, slightly interested myself

[nelson9995]

Care to elaborate on this a little further, slightly interested myself

hes talking about a ported head... cams... tb, im good headers and exhaust... high comp... etc...

[BABY J]

^^^ We have a winner. If you want to play with serious B18A/B non-v just be sure that you're ready for the financial committment. Potent nonvtec builds are a PERFORMANCE engine vs a "look at my horsepower" engine - LOL. You will crush many a cars with cooler dyno sheets than yours. If you are REALLY serious about a non-v build and understand the committment you need to make with your wallet PM me. I will share with you what I've learned in building my non-v setup - sleeved B18B (84mm) - race ported P8R - crower 405a - GSR crank/rods etc.

[dirk-diggler]

i have a p8r head fully ported and polished if u go this way with your ls

[Papa_Smurf]

crower 405a.


405's?! how streetable is that really?

[JVP]

so that mean fully built hit around 180-200 HP on a b series engines non vtec??

[Papa_Smurf]

so that mean fully built hit around 180-200 HP on a b series engines non vtec??

yes. i've seen upwords of 220whp in a nonvtec ls/b20.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2176287

it is possible to make hp out of a b series nonvtec, but like mentioned above it usually costs a pretty penny.

[nelson9995]

so that mean fully built hit around 180-200 HP on a b series engines non vtec??

yeah... but you need 12:1 compression with big ass cams.... port, IM... fully built... like 4k or 5k worth of money.

[BABY J]

405's?! how streetable is that really?

Depends on your tuner. Scotty did a great job on my 403s - Ed did a great job on my 404s - and I'm sure that whoever I choose for the 405a tune will do a great job also.

[Da_unknown]

Depends on your tuner. Scotty did a great job on my 403s - Ed did a great job on my 404s - and I'm sure that whoever I choose for the 405a tune will do a great job also.

he speaks the truth... listen to him... yo J hit me up

[Papa_Smurf]

Depends on your tuner. Scotty did a great job on my 403s - Ed did a great job on my 404s - and I'm sure that whoever I choose for the 405a tune will do a great job also.

scotty tuned my pops b20vtec, and he'll be tunning whatever setup i decide to go with too. He did a really good job on the b20vtec. we were really impressed.



What kind of numbers did you get with your 403s?

[*EFilliated*]

not worth the money, for the power. but definetley different from all others

[Papa_Smurf]

not worth the money, for the power. but definetley different from all others

You can make power with a b series nonvtec, but for the amount you spend doing that you can make more hp with a vtec head.

but if your only argument is most bang for your buck, money for HP, then NA isn't the way to go anyway.


BUT, some say the feel of all around power and torque that you get from a midly built ls/b20 is very fun, and can beat some ls/vtec's.


There are definitely pro's and con's to which ever route you go. Ultimately you just gotta do your research and choose one. (I'm still debating on which route I am going to go with my b20 block too :crazy: )

[Bacon]

13:1 comp, 404 cams or better, ITBs, bore, and all supporting mods with a good tune and you should be able to see 200 if not higher.

[SPOOLIN]

just run a VTEC head with VTEC deleted and fat cams and youll regain the torque curve....but youll be hitting a fat lick at idle LOL.

[BABY J]

You do not need over 12.0 CR. Also... don't pay for "power" - pay for performance. The highest HP doesn't always win the race. The word that you need to learn is EFFICIENCY. I've laid my graph over a 200+ hp motor - I am MANY miles an hour faster than the VTEC motor from the beginning of the sample to the end. PERIOD. With respect to traction guess what that means on the street? I simply inhale and exhale more air in the same period of time. That's "performance" even though the other motor made more "power". Make sure you balance peak power w/ how quickly you make that power... unless you're going road racing where you're at 95% throttle position all day.

My build was pricey, but was never meant to be "N/A" - I'm am nitrous guy. If you subtract the cost of my sleeves then I'm right back in the same range cost-wise as any comperable "serious" VTEC build. If you guys aren't buying reliability when you build motors then you're a dork, or you haven't been doing it long enough to realize the benefit of that.

There are many ways to get results --- good luck to all in that venture, no matter if you are VTEC or not - single-cam or dual - etc. Build what you want so that in the end you're happy. ;) Does a 5 liter Mustang have variable timing? How about an LS1? LOL. Yall Honda guys need to stop thinking in one-dimension... it's not sexy. RESEARCH... why does a Sr20 outperform a B20? Does the Sr have VTEC? No. LOL. Put cha head in the game kids.

The "rules" for N/A performance haven't changed and they won't no matter what weapon you choose - there will always be tradeoffs... build something that works for your application. Good luck.

[Starrfire]

I'd rather have an h22 swap stock and make the same power with bolt ons and still cost way less.

[Rsporty]

I'm running a stock bottom end, ebay header and a crappy exhaust, but Scotty still got 144.9 whp out of my Ls with Crower 403's, port/polish, and Blox 65mm tb.
Not a whole lot and I haven't really ran any other cars yet, but it's pretty fun, already.

I'll add a light weight flywheel and better clutch when I wear the stock one out, and can't wait to see what it puts down, once l up the compression and get a better exhaust/header combo, but now the wife is jealouse and wants an Ls in her Del sol, so mine is on hold til hers catches up a little. lol

[*EFilliated*]

X2, But like baby j stated, do what u feel, set ur self a goal and get there, cheap or expensive do whatever makes u happy


I'd rather have an h22 swap stock and make the same power with bolt ons and still cost way less.

[JVP]

Sorry guys I don't use eBay stuff

[JVP]

the h22 swap is to heavy so I don't use it

[BABY J]

Listen - if you have a stock bottom end, just bolt it up w/ quality parts... go 404s (cams), Kidd header, S2 IM, NGK colder plugs, shielded short-ram intake and MSPi exhaust into a Vibrant muffler. Toss in a B16 or JDM B16 (lsd > * ) box. (when you do the tranny add a pressure plate and flywheel). Get Scotty to tune it and then spring $300 for a 75 wet shot (street price)... or get a dry kit 50 shot and convert it to wet later (add a noid and a couple more lines). You will RAPE most of the people here w/ "built" and "semi-built" motors and will have more $$ left in your pocket. Some guy w/ a 200hp built N/A motor will likely get his lunch money taken by a "bolt-on" car with a power-adder if you can drive.YES IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.

Just make sure that your motor is healthy from the start w/ a leak-down and CR test. On the side... (after you have the above setup on the road) build up a nice head http://www.stewartengines.com/ or http://www.team4piston.com/ (tell Jim @ Stewart's or Luke @ T4P that Baby sent you) and they can hook you up. I say build the 2nd head on the side bc 1) it keeps your car on the road and 2) Jim and/or Luke are slower than average ... but it will be RIGHT the 1st time. They both have O fuckin CD and that's the kinda guys you want wrenching for you if you have the spare time to waste. Your STOCK BOTTOM END w/ one of those heads and the gas will cut heads off all week long. Yall are trying too hard.

[Rsporty]

Sorry guys I don't use eBay stuff

Well, good for you.

[Papa_Smurf]

404s. Kidd header.

Jay, do you know if 404's will pass emissions in Atlanta? Thats the only thing making me stay with 403s.

kidd header doesn't fit in an EF without KILLING the x member or getting traction bars :(

[BABY J]

The guy who tuned my 404s had me passing emissions - they are not that high-strung at all. If not a little timing adjustment should square you away. Scotty had me passing on 403s as well. The weight reduction for traction bars is a win-win. Also, a notch on the subframe (and boxing it back in) is no biggy either. All of those things are easily resolved. I've yet to be tuned on the 405s but if I don't pass I have a work-around...

[Papa_Smurf]

i saw jermaines EF and saw how hacked up his x member was and it made me weary of it. even boxing it back in, i still think it wouldn't be near as strong as it should be.

[Rsporty]

The guy who tuned my 404s had me passing emissions - they are not that high-strung at all. If not a little timing adjustment should square you away. Scotty had me passing on 403s as well. The weight reduction for traction bars is a win-win. Also, a notch on the subframe (and boxing it back in) is no biggy either. All of those things are easily resolved. I've yet to be tuned on the 405s but if I don't pass I have a work-around...

Scotty tuned my 403's and I passed emissions with flying colors. Even better than I did stock!

I hear a lot about the Kidd headers.
What makes them so great and how do they help make so much more power than other headers?

[BABY J]

i saw jermaines EF and saw how hacked up his x member was and it made me weary of it. even boxing it back in, i still think it wouldn't be near as strong as it should be.

I would not notch a subframe and then not box it back in. I'll go to my storage this week and post a pic of my subframe - but I'd much rather have a traction bar - it's more space than a notch and of course you can tune the launch and wheel-hop. A properly boxed in frame is as strong or stronger than OEM (trust me - I come from mini-trucking where notches/airride/hydros was my life before I moved into SpoCom.


Scotty tuned my 403's and I passed emissions with flying colors. Even better than I did stock!

I hear a lot about the Kidd headers.
What makes them so great and how do they help make so much more power than other headers?

They are a spinoff of a very popular design by RMF (Randy Monroe). They work - PERIOD. And they are affordable. I've always had serious headers - and 10 years ago this kind of performance was $800 and 3 weeks to a month of waiting.

[Papa_Smurf]

I would not notch a subframe and then not box it back in. I'll go to my storage this week and post a pic of my subframe - but I'd much rather have a traction bar - it's more space than a notch and of course you can tune the launch and wheel-hop. A properly boxed in frame is as strong or stronger than OEM (trust me - I come from mini-trucking where notches/airride/hydros was my life before I moved into SpoCom.

Traction bars are expensive tho, which essentially makes that $300 kidd header double in price.

i know i know, you gotta pay to play, but still....lol


AND, most of the traction bars i've seen for EF's have TERRIBLE ground clearance.

[Papa_Smurf]

baby j, you dont... still have any 403 or 404 cams that you wanna sell, do you?

[BABY J]

* sigh *

The diff between the guys that are quick and the guys that aren't is usually PARTS, not SMARTS (to a degree). The "blue-prints" are already out there online with what works and what doesn't. You want to set yourself up for the advantage - and with a "wrong-wheel-drive" car you need all the help you can get - bars up front, high spring rates (and properly valved shocks) in the rear. You either wanna win or not. It's okay to just be a "casual observer" and "occassional participant" into this scene. But you shouldn't hop in a "fully built LS" thread (or fully built ANYTHING thread) if you're scared of the costs incurred. Bars on ebay start at $89 for an EF. There ARE parts that you can save money on... with respect to weight and welds a metal bar is not gonna be "better" than any other metal bar - LOL. (w/out getting VERY technical). That's why there are DIY traction bars that are as good or better than higher $ ones.

It seems to me that you are trying to talk yourself OUT of building something proper. LOL. And that's okay too - b/c the speed limit is still stuck on a stick beside the road no matter how quick your street-car is. I sold my 403s (FL) and 404s (NC) already. My 405As are at MSS Racing - should have it back on the road by the begining of the year. Wagon painted already - awaiting cage and then reassembly. Then I'll drink beer.

[Rsporty]

They are a spinoff of a very popular design by RMF (Randy Monroe). They work - PERIOD. And they are affordable. I've always had serious headers - and 10 years ago this kind of performance was $800 and 3 weeks to a month of waiting.

How are the Kidd headers for ground clearance, though?

[SPOOLIN]

Traction bars are expensive tho, which essentially makes that $300 kidd header double in price.

i know i know, you gotta pay to play, but still....lol


AND, most of the traction bars i've seen for EF's have TERRIBLE ground clearance.

ha, or you could spend $$$ for a real rmf and a traction bar and bleed more.

[SPOOLIN]

bars up front, high spring rates (OR properly valved shocks and the right spring rates) in the rear.

haha, fixed

[BABY J]

ha, or you could spend $$$ for a real rmf and a traction bar and bleed more.

^^ LOL. These kids dont' realize how EASY they have it now - LOL. People will complain about any and everything when it's basically AFFORDABLE and GIVEN to them these days - LOL. Sheesh.

For clearance on the KiddRacing headers hit his site - do some research on H-T man. THE INFORMATION IS OUT THERE!!! When I was dragging notches down the road in big shot single cam EFs and EGs in the 90s there was no H-T - there were VERY few accessible aftermarket parts (my hatch had a modified 5 liter nitrous plate kit) we figured it out. To figure out what was TOO much we had to blow shit up - rebuild it and then back it off a little the 2nd time around. You guys have it easy.


haha, fixed

how strange. :goodjob:

[Papa_Smurf]

lol i'm just on the edge, j. still on the fence of "built" b20 or "built b20vtec". I've ridden in a b20vtec, so I know exactly how that feels. It's just kinda hard to get an idea of how a midly build b20nonvtec would feel like.

[Papa_Smurf]

^^ LOL. These kids dont' realize how EASY they have it now - LOL. People will complain about any and everything when it's basically AFFORDABLE and GIVEN to them these days - LOL. Sheesh.

LOL i'm just a broke college kid j. it takes a hot minute to build something on a poor mans budget.

[Rsporty]

I'll check Kidd's site later.
Right now, your earlier comment has me researching DIY traction bars for my EG.

I do agree. These young guys have no idea how good they have it, now.
God, the things I F'd up before we had web forums to do research, first! lol

[BABY J]

lol i'm just on the edge, j. still on the fence of "built" b20 or "built b20vtec". I've ridden in a b20vtec, so I know exactly how that feels. It's just kinda hard to get an idea of how a midly build b20nonvtec would feel like.

1) you need to be honest with yourself - how much time are you ACTUALLY racing. If the answer is "not too often" then a "fully-built" ANYTHING is prob not in the cards for you.

2) how much $$ do you wanna put into this. Pay YOURSELF 1st (savings), take care of REAL shit (home / lady / fam) THEN play with cars.

3) you need to realize that a car is the WORST place to put a lot of money - horsepower breaks stuff - PERIOD - or 1 crash and theft and you're at 0. THIS HAS TO BE OKAY and UNDERSTOOD by you. If not - wrong scene sorry to tell you.

4) If your car blew an engine RIGHT NOW ... what would you do? If you don't have the means financially to still make it to work tomorrow... tread softly. You're prob some1 who should be an "occasional participant" to the performance side of this automotive sector. Nothing wrong with that.

5) If you want a CHEAP solution w/out all of the algebra and calculous then a small wet shot on a bolt-on healthy block - you will rape 70% of the people you encounter through a) suprise (they took you for granted) or b) performance... either way, you win. Guess what... tuned 75 wet shot on a stock LS CRUSHES most 200hp N/A motors (w/ the right driver/tire/gear). You'll be down on HP by comparison, but you'll CRUSH them in TQ production. What little HP/TQ you do make, you'll make it NOW not later. That's $300 and you're in the game. NITROUS IS THE BIG EQUALIZER --- PERIOD.

--- Finally... don't do random sir. PLAN IT OUT. Execute it one step at a time. Don't blow an oil pump w/out doing a nice HG and head studs when you replace it - etc. People double their work/costs a lot due to poor planning. WRITE IT DOWN ON PAPER... you can make all the mistakes you want to on paper and it won't cost you any $$... those are FREE mistakes.

Good luck.

[JVP]

Which compression would you recommend me for my Ls motor??For all motor?

[BABY J]

What chassis? Daily driver? AC? Transmisson? It's not just the motor you have to think about. I laugh at the "mild" ALL-MOTOR guys who toss it into a DC2 sedan fullweight. Yeah, you outrun the other full weight sedans out there but a basic LS + B16 gear hatch rapes you. It has to be ALL ENCOMPASSING. If you want to toss it into a full weight car w/ AC, then do a bolt-on H22 (tuned) and keep the extra funds for beer.

But to answer your question 11.8 is nice... 12.0 is the limit that I'd run on a street car. But you can put the right motor in the wrong chassis and piss on your own shoes. Make sure that your build is ALL ENCOMPASSING... chassis, gear, function (DD or track rat)... etc. Compression is also not a replacement for a good quality well setup head. Sure - it's cheaper, but you don't see the full effects of compression if you can't the air outta the block any faster... make sense? LOL - if all of this is giving you a headache then call up Treadstone Performance - get a bolt-on turbo kit and call it good. ALL-MOTOR is a test of your wallet and also a test of your heart :)

[Starrfire]

Also people get caught up on dyno charts. Its doesn't matter that you are the fastest guy out there just was long as you're not the slowest lol. And just because someone has more power than you doesn't mean that they themselves can beat you in a race even if the car is faster.

[JVP]

U think 11.2 is ok on mine setup and wat type of cam u think is better on ls head ?

[JVP]

Also people get caught up on dyno charts. Its doesn't matter that you are the fastest guy out there just was long as you're not the slowest lol. And just because someone has more power than you doesn't mean that they themselves can beat you in a race even if the car is faster.
U right

[BABY J]

I'm beginning to think that no1 is listening. Instead of asking me every single mod 1 by 1 do this. BUILD THE CAR ON PAPER - with prices when possible. THEN post it up and let me make some suggestions. You're asking me to do your homework for you and I don't like the sound of that anymore b/c I have homework of my own. LOL. Do your homework, and I'll go over it to check your answers - that'll work out better for me. Thanx.

[*EFilliated*]

Very true, my car was a great example of that at import showdown. HP doesn't always mean much when ur racing heads up


Also people get caught up on dyno charts. Its doesn't matter that you are the fastest guy out there just was long as you're not the slowest lol. And just because someone has more power than you doesn't mean that they themselves can beat you in a race even if the car is faster.

[jenofcnd]

Sorry to post this mundane question here, but I need support! I have to do a 1 hour Software Best Practices Training for some programmers in my company. Audience are Freshers to couple of years experience guys. Can you guys please suggest some relevant topics I can cover? I could think of the following: 1) Importance of following coding standards, indentation 2) Proper naming of files, variables, functions, classes, tables. (http://kilas47p.sosblog.com/-b/check-out-this-sports-betting-system-b1-p7.htm), columns, views and all other artifacts 3) Layer your application - each layer must address a specific concern 4) Abstract common stuff into reusable utility classes Any support will be greatly appreciated (A positive response to this post & I promise I will contribute to the community by replying to at least 10 threads!)

[EmminoDaGreat]

http://www.mainstreamperformance.com/?q=node/5

check it. fully built ls. get some.

[RBS]

n i t r o u s

[JDMDA_1.7]

http://www.mainstreamperformance.com/?q=node/5

check it. fully built ls. get some.

hell yea!lol

[allmotor-teg]

1) you need to be honest with yourself - how much time are you ACTUALLY racing. If the answer is "not too often" then a "fully-built" ANYTHING is prob not in the cards for you.

2) how much $$ do you wanna put into this. Pay YOURSELF 1st (savings), take care of REAL shit (home / lady / fam) THEN play with cars.

3) you need to realize that a car is the WORST place to put a lot of money - horsepower breaks stuff - PERIOD - or 1 crash and theft and you're at 0. THIS HAS TO BE OKAY and UNDERSTOOD by you. If not - wrong scene sorry to tell you.

4) If your car blew an engine RIGHT NOW ... what would you do? If you don't have the means financially to still make it to work tomorrow... tread softly. You're prob some1 who should be an "occasional participant" to the performance side of this automotive sector. Nothing wrong with that.

5) If you want a CHEAP solution w/out all of the algebra and calculous then a small wet shot on a bolt-on healthy block - you will rape 70% of the people you encounter through a) suprise (they took you for granted) or b) performance... either way, you win. Guess what... tuned 75 wet shot on a stock LS CRUSHES most 200hp N/A motors (w/ the right driver/tire/gear). You'll be down on HP by comparison, but you'll CRUSH them in TQ production. What little HP/TQ you do make, you'll make it NOW not later. That's $300 and you're in the game. NITROUS IS THE BIG EQUALIZER --- PERIOD.

--- Finally... don't do random sir. PLAN IT OUT. Execute it one step at a time. Don't blow an oil pump w/out doing a nice HG and head studs when you replace it - etc. People double their work/costs a lot due to poor planning. WRITE IT DOWN ON PAPER... you can make all the mistakes you want to on paper and it won't cost you any $$... those are FREE mistakes.

Good luck.


dude you are the shit!!! say the things the way it is and dont take any prisioners with you. explain things to detail and help others with their stuff

[NOCLUE]

dude you are the shit!!! say the things the way it is and dont take any prisioners with you. explain things to detail and help others with their stuff

agree, just soaking all this info

[allmotor-teg]

agree, just soaking all this info

^^
yea same here, learning from somone that knows his stuff.

[BABY J]

I don't know much - but my cars and my $ goes to the guys that do:

MSS Racing / Mainstream Performance locally. The other places I support are not in the state.

[allmotor-teg]

like the stuff you put is very true and seem to have past experiences so thats what im talking about.