whats the difference in turbo hp and all motor hp ?

[h22 jones]

I just want to get everybodys opion on how much hp it takes for a turboed car to run with a all motor car. For example in my experience it takes around 185hp for a all motor car to run mid 13s . It takes around 240hp for a turboed car to run mid 13s. A 250hp all motor car will run high 11s low 12s while it takes around 350 turboed hp to run this. I know there are a tone of other factors that control what a car runs but lets just keep it to allmotor and turboed hp in this thread. If you want to give the weight of the car to make it a little easier to compare thats fine but dont get into tire size , trany gearing , etc.

I just realy thought this would make for some good reading and maybe help some of the new guys decide weither they wanna go allmotor or turbo. I know its hard for turbo guys and all motor guys to have a discussion with out all the hating and bashing but please keep that crap out of this thread this should realy be a good discussion.

I have nothing against turbo cars honestly the reason i got into all motor ( ten years ago) was a gsr swap cost 3500 and a decent turbo kit was 3000 thats 6500 dollars in just the swap to run mid 13s. I ordered a jdm h22 with a lsd m2b4 trany shipped to the door for 2200 dollars . I paid 100 dollars for mounts , 120 dollars for axles, 40 dollars for accord jack shaft, 20 dollars for slim fan , 75 dollars for accord shifter and shift linkage,. I spent around 2600 on my swap and ran mid 13s and still had the option to turbo later it was all about running the same times at the track for less then half the price. All my friends hated on me when i ordered my swap untill they road in it one of them actualy have a h22 swapped hatch right now ( i did the swap about a year ago) and the other one has bought two or three h22 swaps just never finished them. Ive just always stuck with h22s every since then but thats besides the point post up your opions on the difference in how much hp it takes to run what times with either all motor or turboed.

Please post what you know from experience not what you have read . What i mean by this is we all know 300hp all motor will get you tens in calafornia and canada and 350 turboed hp will get you tens in canada lol. lets keep it local cars so they can be actualy compared if you dont understand why cars run so much faster on the west coast trust me when you bring them to the east cost they run no faster then we do nor do they make any more hp its all about the air so no way to compare a car from the east coast that you read about keep it local ( somebodys car that you actualy are friends with or your own car).

[Catnip]

From what I've seen, it's not so much of it takes turbo cars more power to run 13's compared to lower horsepower all motor cars, than a lot of turbo car owners don't set their car up for drag racing.

I took my NA hatch to the strip with 22" slicks, gutted, and a cold night for a reason... low power. I've seen a LOT of turbo guys go out on street tires, full weight, and high humidity/heat. However, Japan4racing had a stock GSR swap with a Peakboost turbo kit in a Civic that did DEEP 12's if not high 11's if I remember correctly.

[h22 jones]

I understand what your saying but look at it this way skunk2 is running 9s with what 330 all motor hp ? ive never seen a turbo car come close to that pro or not . I know thats not a fair comparison but my point is there is a difference same car set up the same a turbo car with the same hp will not run the same time as a all motor setup with the same hp . The reason is all motor is instant hp with a turbo you have to wait to get your hp. 185 all motor hatch vs 250 turboed power hatch at the eight i would be 5 car lengths in front of him at the quarter half a car length and he would trap 6 miles an hour faster then me. If the roads long enough the turbo will win but were talking quarter mile. if you raced from a role i could see were 250hp might just be 250 hp no matter were you get it from but from a dead stop at the track there is a difference and im sure somebody alot smarter then me will chime in and help explain why . Even right now i jump 2 or 3 car lengths on most high hp turboed cars coming off the line (I dont win the race with 450hp cars lol ) . my car feel slike it breaks in half man when it leaves . Ive seend a 600 hp turboed hatch seem slugish coming off the line but watch a 250hp all motor car leave .

I honestly figured some one would have a average percentage as to how much all motor hp would equal the same turboed hp. I also wanted the guys on here that dont know much to be able to see if they threw together a poor mans type r or just a nice budget build all motor ( because they didnt have the money to turbo) to see what kind of turbo cars they could run with . On this site all motor is kinda the red headed step child but its just because there are not alot of high hp all motor cars on this site. Take the crx from americas that kid has been running a b20vtec for years driving it everday ( so it cant be built for race gas) running mid 11s all motor for years thats pretty strong. lets say i finaly get around to putting together my motor which will make between 280 to 300 hp and it runs mid to low 11s i drive it everyday it gets good gas mileage and its dependable would you still feel like it was how the car was setup for the track. By the way my dads car has cut factory springs on cheap ass weapon are coilovers it would realy benifit from some nice suspension to but its not a race car we just havnt got around to looking for any lol. if you ever get on honda tech all motor is alot more appreciated and you cansee what you can realy do with them . Honestly whats suprising me is these damn turboed d sereis (dont get me wrong i think building a all motor d series is stupid just my opion lol ) making almost the same tourqe as hp . If somebody could figure out how to keep a head gasket on one at high boost there some bad little setups. bertas was just nasty and he never realy turned up the boost .

[h22 jones]

also the cars im talking about were on slicks set up realy nice. I understand what your saying catnip that you cant compare a bunch of turbo cars playing on street tires making all this power running slow times to a track ready all motor car. Thats not what im trying to do but on average ( you have your cars that just fall together and run like god for some reason ) if some body come on a turbo forum or a all motor forum gave the amount of hp they were trying to make and asked what times they would run about 60 percent of the people on here could give them a average time . With that being said the average time they got would be lower for a all motor with the same hp as a turboed car from what ive always seen.

[VTECxRoCKz]

All Motor baby, the power band is a consistant pull, as turbo has dramatic pull once spooled up

[Catnip]

I definitely understand what you're saying, Mike. The hatch I had did a 13.5 @ 92 mph with a stock JDM GSR (intake/exhaust), B16 trans, and ebay coilovers/tokico shocks. After riding in PT's stock H22 Civic, I can't even imagine how strong your car is.

To be honest, I think it comes down to if you like roll racing or drag racing. I never had a turbo car like my Sentra before b/c I didn't care about the trap or roll racing, just the ET, so I had cars like my hatch... now I have the challenge of getting my car to hook at the track and get off the line to run good ETs to match the trap, lol.

BTW, met your dad at SDR the weekend before last; very nice guy :goodjob:

[*EFilliated*]

Roll racing is not a race

[Catnip]

Roll racing is not a race

I still can't hook with street slicks in 1st and 2nd gear because my car is wrong wheel drive, shitty suspension, and makes around 330whp, roll racing is racing. LOL

[CaTcH22]

I know my car would only run 13.7-13.8 at the track with my old setup @ 250whp, but I could put 3 or 4 cars on a 12 sec car on the street, back to back runs. I think its got alot to due with turbo lag, bogging out of the launch and lag in between shifts. At least for me.

[Z0_o6]

a properly setup turbo car can make use of the extra power, once you add in anti-lag, flat foot shifting and a good driver, spool becomes a non-issue.

most people who build turbo honda's (myself included) know that hooking with any serious power is an expensive and difficult thing to do, and therefore don't really worry about it. I know with my civic, the first time it dead hooks on a launch it will probably rip the diff slam out of the transmission. I respect an all-motor build just the same as anything else with time and effort put into it.

[Catnip]

I know my car would only run 13.7-13.8 at the track with my old setup @ 250whp, but I could put 3 or 4 cars on a 12 sec car on the street, back to back runs. I think its got alot to due with turbo lag, bogging out of the launch and lag in between shifts. At least for me.

Like I said before, I understand what Mike is saying, but would you have not dropped a full second with anti-lag, good slicks, no lift shift, and boost by gear?

[*EFilliated*]

Catnip I like how u taking dis whole mod thing to ur head and deleting my post

[h22 jones]

I never read your post but i ask for any bashing comments to be deleted so if it was hating on turbo cars thats why it was deleted cause i asked for it. I appreciate your opion i mean your on my said lol but i dont want this to turn into a bashing session . I realy think give this a couple days to let people get on the computer and we will all learn a little something.

[h22 jones]

owk d16 your car made around 330 and you couldnt get good times at the track but like you said out run many 12 second cars on the street. I do beleive your car should have run a better time when berta run his hatch i think it was on around 18 pounds . It ran 12 flat with just a little more hp then you was making so i wouldnt compare your car as a mid 13 second car . Lets say you did run a mid 12 with your car would you say that is about were your car should be ? My point is im giving you a whole second and your car had 330hp and my all motor car only has 250 and were running low 12s see my point you would have 80 more hp but still wouldnt run as good of a time. If you look at my dads dyno you will see this car is realy a beast even though it doesnt have that 280hp dyno. Now my point by saying that is the power band if off the charts ive seen several h22 motors make a higher top number on the dyno but we make 20 more hp across the power band. Its all about usable hp i need to find a turbo dyno around 250hp and overlay our dyno so you can see what i mean or even another 250 all motor dyno would show the same thing. I been trying to put my pro2 cams in my dads motor that would give it 1000 more rpms on the top side probably make it close to 280hp. He want let me because if you read up the major difference is they change the primary lobes on pro2 cams were the stage 2 cams have stock primary lobes and thats why my dads car gets 35 miles to the gallon as long as he stays out of vtec its running on stock lobes and he loves his gas mileage. That motor is built so damn well i would love to see what it would do with a big set of cams in it. It pulls 22 pounds of vacum and probably has 15,000 miles on it.

[h22 jones]

qwk d16 i also stated that given enough road the turbo car would eventualy win but thats not racing . When people say role racing isnt racing its because most people set there cars up for the track they gear it for the track and getting off the line i would say is 70 percent of the race lol anybody can do the rest.

My dad said he meet a couple guys at the track i wasnt sure who it was but he said that b16 hatch was running pretty strong and well 12s is 12s so we know your car is running good. Whats your car weigh catnip?

[thundercatz1]

In my opinion all motor horsepower is reliale hp, not saying that a turbo cannot be a reliable with a good tune, but somehwere down the line in the near or distant future your gonna need some type of rebuild. With my car and mods and (SLICKS) I should be at a 13.9 and I have over 200hp the best I can get on stock street tires is a 14.3 given that the weather that nite at sdr was stuffy and hot and I'm 2800lbs and my sorry ass track driving lolol. O well hopefully I can get better.

Turbo cars thrive in roll racing and long distance so everyone knows it will beat an allmotor car, but all motor cars that makes decent power( cars that are kind of close in competition) will have a better chance in a 1/8 or 1/4 mile than a turbo car due to traction loss when that boost hit the tires and lag....

Just my two cent with intermediate knowledge and experience.

Me and h22 jones 30 roll lets experiment all motor to all motor one day....

[h22 jones]

Talking about ripping the diff out the trany when i leave the line like i said it feels like the car is breaking in half and im only leaving at 6000 rpms . I could get more out this car like you said flat foot shift there are a tone of things to do. I treat this car like a baby its not a race car we do nothing to take a chance on breaking it or over reving it. Now if i am at a real race and its gonna be close then yea ill pull out all the stops but its not worth it to me at test and tune just to try and nock a couple tenths off . I also keep just eough air in the slicks to let it spin just a little . The only time it has ever completely grabbed was at import show down and it was on drag radials so i never saw that coming. It broke a 450 hp axle flush with the trany so sometimes spinning a little coming off the line isnt a bad thing.

[h22 jones]

how about a 40 role i still have traction issues at 30 on the street . Does your car weigh that with you in it ? My accord weighed that and i ran 13.9 with 220hp so depending on if thats with you in it or not thats not that bad. The hatch weighs 2450 it probably weighs more now then when it was new lol. It realy pulls as hard at 100 as it does at 40 so what ever you want to do is fine just let me know . It has to be for atleast 5 dollars everybody else has some of your money i want to be able to say i do lol. Ill give that 5 dollars to rod and get them to hang it up up there at prestige so maurice and them can mess with you if you stop by lol.

[DarKStaR]

Roll racing is taking the launch out of the equation as well as the whole fwd vs rwd vs awd. For example an all motor car will want a dig race with a turbo car, but the turbo car will want a roll due to spinning real bad. Alot of people will say roll racing isnt racing because which ever car has more power will win. You still have to be able to "drive" the car, like if your turboed and going from a 40 roll. If you know its going to break loose, you have to know how to pedal it and be quick on the shifts. With my old all motor setup i raced a few cars that should have beat me to due being about 400-500lbs lighter with similar power, but with them granny shifting and me shifting the way i do i would beat them. With a turbo car the more power you have, it becomes a fight with traction and how to put that power to the ground. With an all motor car you are utilizing every horsepower and knowing what works and what doesnt. Power to weight comes in as a huge factor also on an all motor car.

[Catnip]

Catnip I like how u taking dis whole mod thing to ur head and deleting my post

The post I deleted from you wasn't needed. I responded as to why roll racing is used. It actually pertains to this thread. I wasn't looking for an arguement. Your post said "I'm not going to argue with you and ruin this thread."

If that's so, shut the fuck up unless you have something constructive to say. If you can't follow suit, I will delete your comments and ban you.


qwk d16 i also stated that given enough road the turbo car would eventualy win but thats not racing . When people say role racing isnt racing its because most people set there cars up for the track they gear it for the track and getting off the line i would say is 70 percent of the race lol anybody can do the rest.

My dad said he meet a couple guys at the track i wasnt sure who it was but he said that b16 hatch was running pretty strong and well 12s is 12s so we know your car is running good. Whats your car weigh catnip?

I know black4drek was there as well, so that may be who he met in addition.

The Sentra weighed out at 2640 with a 1/4 tank and no driver. Most times I run with around 3/4 tank and I weigh about 160. Power should be around 315whp REALISTICALLY considering I'm running out of injector. 315whp, 2800+ race weight, and only 2.0 60', 12.61 isn't bad. I was on the rev limiter in 4th b/c the tires are too small.

[CaTcH22]

Yeah the best 60ft I could ever get was a 2.5. lol. The car was not setup for drag racing and couldnt get it to work right, I would easily assume that I could get into the 12's with 109mph trap speeds I was puttin down. I love all motor cars, so either way is cool with me.

[thundercatz1]

how about a 40 role i still have traction issues at 30 on the street . Does your car weigh that with you in it ? My accord weighed that and i ran 13.9 with 220hp so depending on if thats with you in it or not thats not that bad. The hatch weighs 2450 it probably weighs more now then when it was new lol. It realy pulls as hard at 100 as it does at 40 so what ever you want to do is fine just let me know . It has to be for atleast 5 dollars everybody else has some of your money i want to be able to say i do lol. Ill give that 5 dollars to rod and get them to hang it up up there at prestige so maurice and them can mess with you if you stop by lol.

Lolol lets meet in the middle and do a 35 roll.... and we can do it for 5 hell I will just say i bought you lunch lolol. With me in it, it weighs 2845lbs.... It will be fun my little k series might surprise you lol

[DarKStaR]

I dont think you will surprise him lol. Let me know if this goes down haha

[thundercatz1]

I dont think you will surprise him lol. Let me know if this goes down haha

He might be buying me lunch lolol

[DarKStaR]

i HIGHLY doubt that. 110mph>99mph traps. He could give you the hit and a car or so and still come around you while granny shifting

[thundercatz1]

i HIGHLY doubt that. 110mph>99mph traps. He could give you the hit and a car or so and still come around you while granny shifting

:cry: but I have a k20 lol

[DarKStaR]

he has a h22. bigger motor ;) fuck a k20 lulz

[thundercatz1]

he has a h22. bigger motor ;) fuck a k20 lulz

BLASPHEMY LOL ASK FOR FORGIVENESS LOLOL

[thundercatz1]

So darkstar lets do a dig to a 1/8th mile lol and do the all motor turbo theory ? lol

[DarKStaR]

ok, at the track, both of us on slicks

[h22 jones]

lmao im sure your car runs strong top end and no offence but it will defently not suprise me . Honestly if you put a bull shit turbo kit on that motor and out run me i would be suprised then . Im going to tell you what you need to do total that car buy it back from the insurance company pull the motor and put it in a hatch . That will be a start but you will still have a tone to do to be fast lol.

[DarKStaR]

Mike when you gonna put my small ass in that car and see what it can do ;) lol jk. And are you going tuesday?

Thunder-me and you have already talked about what to do to get you a little faster, just get some money lol

[thundercatz1]

Mike when you gonna put my small ass in that car and see what it can do ;) lol jk. And are you going tuesday?

Thunder-me and you have already talked about what to do to get you a little faster, just get some money lol

Troof

[Z0_o6]

That will be a start but you will still have a tone to do to be fast lol.

Amen. It's stupid how much shit it takes.

[*EFilliated*]

Damn thundercatz and I thought my car was heavy at 2500

[thundercatz1]

Damn thundercatz and I thought my car was heavy at 2500

Yea Type-S are heavy as hell but there is one guy on clubrsx that got his down to 2300lbs

[*EFilliated*]

O damn, wonder Wat he cut?

[Catnip]

Yea Type-S are heavy as hell but there is one guy on clubrsx that got his down to 2300lbs

I'd be running 11's at the same power with that weight, lulz.

[thundercatz1]

O damn, wonder Wat he cut?

no interior,ac,ps,firewall,bumper support,sound deading,cf hood,hatch, lightweight windows,air bags and some more shit......lol

at catnip yea that would be nice, just imagine if our cars came from the factory weighing 2300lbs I bet the sticker price would be much higher lol

[h22 jones]

I realy expected to get more response on this thread i guess nobody realy knows lol. Most people either go boost or all motor not both and you would just about have to go both to figure out what im asking or get a ruff estrimate. post up some cars that you know are legit about what there running there weight ,hp,et and weither there all motor or boost . For example 2450 pounds , 252 hp all motor 12.3 at 110 . I have traped faster but that was my best pass. then look at the difference in the cars running boost and all motor and what it takes for them to run certain times.

[Apex1972]

Yea Type-S are heavy as hell but there is one guy on clubrsx that got his down to 2300lbs

without the mighty K under the hood? how much does the engine weigh?

[h22 jones]

joey the only problem i got letting somebody else drive it is this. If i blow it up i got to fix it well i dont have to but it will be me fixing it. If i let somebody else drive and they blow it up i still got to fix it lol. I told dad if you take it to the track with out me there and let somebody else drive it and they miss shift or something and blow it im gonna be pissed lol. Its alot easier to fix something that was my fault lol. i dont claim to be the best driver and there are a few things i would do different if this was a track car but he realy drives this car every day so i dont want to tear it up . when i get my car together you can drive it if you get a better time then me then when we go to alabama or some were you can drive it i have no pride in that . Im old id rather sit and watch honestly lol. Import showdown just about killed me and sure it was mainly cause i had the flue but had i been well i still wouldnt have had a good time. Its hard to work on it , drive it , look after your son, and then a damn axle breaks man what a day . the messed up thing is i barley left the line in qualifying after i got the axle in cause i was scared of breaking it to and ran the fastest pass of the day in the all motor class . All i was trying to do was get down the track lol. i realy do wish i could have ran one clean pass that day but shit happenes atleast nemo won.

[DarKStaR]

I was just messing with you lol, we will get together when you get your car out there at the track.

[h22 jones]

Good deal.

[CaTcH22]

2510, 250whp small t3/t4 .50/.48, 13.7 @109 and bad driving, 2.5 60ft. Never ran the 330 setup.

[*EFilliated*]

12.9 @ 104mph,1.7 60ft, around 2500lbs.23" slicks to big. Stock h2b w/ headers, no LSD. At Commerce

[EssexCounty]

this has been one the best thread in a while good stuff mike

[Got Milk?]

BOOOOST!



LAG!


N/A all the way.

[NEMO]

joey the only problem i got letting somebody else drive it is this. If i blow it up i got to fix it well i dont have to but it will be me fixing it. If i let somebody else drive and they blow it up i still got to fix it lol. I told dad if you take it to the track with out me there and let somebody else drive it and they miss shift or something and blow it im gonna be pissed lol. Its alot easier to fix something that was my fault lol. i dont claim to be the best driver and there are a few things i would do different if this was a track car but he realy drives this car every day so i dont want to tear it up . when i get my car together you can drive it if you get a better time then me then when we go to alabama or some were you can drive it i have no pride in that . Im old id rather sit and watch honestly lol. Import showdown just about killed me and sure it was mainly cause i had the flue but had i been well i still wouldnt have had a good time. Its hard to work on it , drive it , look after your son, and then a damn axle breaks man what a day . the messed up thing is i barley left the line in qualifying after i got the axle in cause i was scared of breaking it to and ran the fastest pass of the day in the all motor class . All i was trying to do was get down the track lol. i realy do wish i could have ran one clean pass that day but shit happenes atleast nemo won.
you think the outcome would have been diff. lol jk. i was really hoping we could have be in the finals together.

mike you can post the dyno of mine compared to your dads if you still have it

[japan4racing]

However, Japan4racing had a stock GSR swap with a Peakboost turbo kit in a Civic that did DEEP 12's if not high 11's if I remember correctly.

I had a drag gen III 57 trim t3/t04e running 7psi on a stock gsr in a 94' vx hatch that made 260whp and weighed around 2300lbs with me in it. I ran 12.5@114 on 22inch slicks with 2.0 60's. Then I bought a peakboost kit 60 trim t3/t04e put it on the same gsr swap and tossed it in a 93' 4 door dx that weighed just over 2600lbs with me in it. that car went 12.2@117ish with similar 2.0 60's on 22 inch slicks. I later put that whole set-up in a 92 cx hatch which weighed a good 300 lbs lighter than the 4 door and I never ran it...I kick myself in the ass almost every day for never running that car and never getting the set-up tuned. I have no clue how much power it was making but there is no doubt in my mind that in that hatch it was an 11 second car. Even with my shitty driving and 2.0 60's! the motor was 100% stock internally and had ~120k miles....20k of which were boosted and I literally beat the shit out of that car every day and it took every bit of it and wanted more.

[David88vert]

Turbo cars can spin up and make boost prior to launch. Some EMS systems, like AEM, offer the capability to launch on boost. This involves retarding the timing. The big boys use automatics, and can load the turbos to launch.

Most of the fast locals are not limiting themselves to all motor.
Lynch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gttUYDkeF1M

[h22 jones]

my lap top took a shit and thats were i had it stored nemo but im going to main stream tomorrow to get retuined ill see if i can get him to make me another one. I also dont think things would have went any different i beleive at inport show down i would have red lighted or broke a axle lol it just wasnt my day it was yours man and i cant take that away from you hell you had your own problems you deffently deserved it.

[h22 jones]

owk d16 man your right dude im giving driving lessons every sunday at 200 there free to you lol. Im just playing man but yea your car could have made some very nice passes.

[h22 jones]

Im not speaking of hondas but i know alot of all motrs that run as fast as they want to all motor 6.50 in the quarter so all motor is only limited by money in my book . Im talking about average cars anyway not pro ones thats realy a whole other ball game but like i stated before look what skunk2 is running all motor with how much hp and look what it takes to run that turboed there is deffently a difference. Although your right there are alot of things that you can do to take out the factors hurting turbo cars i still beleive it takes more hp to run the same times as all motor. Turbo is cheap hp hell nitrous is even cheaper hp and actualy realy reliable when done right just nobody does it right .

[h22 jones]

jaqpan4 racing you were about 200 pounds heavier but you are the closest comparison boosted to my car yet . honestly thats not alot of difference i could say im sure my car is faster but yours could have been also . I realy been waiting for post like that cause everybody i know running 250hp boosted would be happy to run a high 12 thats alot closer we maybe getting some were now.

[Z0_o6]

Again, there isn't a specific formula to see how much disparity there is between a N/A and turbo car's possible times. The fact is two cars, that with a given amount of power, in the same weight chassis, with the same amount of traction, would theoretically run the same time.

A well setup turbo car will run damn good times for it's power too, but as you said turbo's are the "cheap" way out (in some cases, but again certainly not a rule) Since they are easier to make power out of, people tend to just go for big numbers and forget the rest of the "go-fast formula" so it can't hook, and is rarely setup to be driven to it's potential. Other just choose not to break everything on the car trying to force it to hook with way more power than it needs. Making 252whp (and I am NOT knocking your numbers at ALL) hook is a lot easier than mine. You are hooking 252 hp, hell I'm trying to make at least 330 TQ hook up in the same or a similar car. Makes the strategy much more critical. Every single variable's effect is increased DRAMATICALLY.

[David88vert]

Actually, let me make it easier to understand. Go to any drag racing ET calculator. You will input your weight, and your horsepower. You will not input whether you are turbo, SC, or NA. Why? - Because it doesn't matter. What matters is that you can get traction. The only thing that touches the ground, and moves you, are your tires.

With that said, if you take 2 identical cars, both making 450rwhp, one with turbo, and the other with all motor, the car that makes more power under the curve should edge the other out. Usually, that would be the all motor car.

Turbo lag should not be a factor, if your car is setup for the track.

[japan4racing]

jaqpan4 racing you were about 200 pounds heavier but you are the closest comparison boosted to my car yet . honestly thats not alot of difference i could say im sure my car is faster but yours could have been also . I realy been waiting for post like that cause everybody i know running 250hp boosted would be happy to run a high 12 thats alot closer we maybe getting some were now.

Yea, honestly with a better driver the 4 door could have gone 11's...I certainly had the mph @ 117 on slicks.....but with those short times it wasnt gonna happen. After I swapped everything to the hatch Im pretty sure my shitty driving could have netted some high 11's even with shitty short times.

Here is a sample of my driving when I had the 4 door..if I remember correctly I ran a 12.4 @ 114 on this pass. The clocks messed up on that run somehow and the 111.xx mph shown is not mine..it was up before I crossed the line. that same night was when I ran the 12.20@117 and it was not uncommon for this car to trap 115-119. As you will see I bog out of the hole, bounce rev limiter for a while then have a not so good pass:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q52/japan4racing/th_100_0886.jpg (http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q52/japan4racing/?action=view&current=100_0886.mp4)

[Moseley]

Since they are easier to make power out of, people tend to just go for big numbers and forget the rest of the "go-fast formula" so it can't hook, and is rarely setup to be driven to it's potential.

Amen... this is what I think too. It takes way more fine tuning to be able to utilize the power of a turbo car to its fullest, especially with FWD. So most turbo FWD cars are not as fast as equally powered NA FWD cars.

It seems like most turbo guys prefer the cheap way (increasing psi or turbo size instead of increasing efficiency) and usually end up with on/off switches under the hood. That might be fine for an all out drag car but not good as a street & track car.

Personally I would love to have a destroked K24 with a twin scroll GT30. It would run on pump gas, spool low and fast, and rely upon high rpm instead of psi to make mid 400s at 12ish psi. It would be a beast on the street due to the ability to run 6-8psi in lower gears. That's my dream boosted street hatch and I think it would trash just about any Honda around here on the street or in the 1/8th. Sure it might get walked from a roll occassionally but it would always be a blast to drive.

[Z0_o6]

I'll be honest, from what I've learned Moseley, the K-series can spool a much larger than traditional turbo rather well due to the head's awesome flow numbers. I know that my STOCK K20 was spooling a 35R with a .82ar hotside by 5000 RPM. That gives a 3500 RPM powerband, which isn't bad at all imho.

Your setup would be phenomenal however, if you could just make it hook. That's always the magic trick.

[h22 jones]

Anybody that owns a honda that has realy raced knows traction is the hold back . I think we can all agree on that and dont think for a minute i dont have traction problems. It took me a year at the track just to get it to hook were im at now and im realy topped out . By that i mean i run 20 inch slicks because if you look on a transmission calculator you overlay my transmission and a b16 tranny they come out the same gear ratio s if i run 22 inch slicks because most people run 24s when running h2b. In order for me to compete with a ha2b i have to run 22 inch slicks because h series tranys are so high geared . Like ive stated before my dad drives this car everyday so we dont want to run a b series. Im running 22 by 9 now and barely spinning at 6000 rpm off the line .if i make much more power im going to have to go to 24s which is gonna kill my gear ratio bla bla bla . The only reason im stating all this is because we were talking about fine tunning and seting a car up to use all its potential .

I mean your right most people want to bolt something together and go fast turbo is alot easier to do that . its still even easier to turn up the boost instead of actualy putting time and energy in your gearing and well just setting up your car for the track. that sone of the reason i started this thread was to educate people ( i was hoping somebody smarter then me would help lol) on what it takes to make a nice car . all you read is how much power people make and what they run. Yhe only way you find out what people realy actualy go through to make a car fast is if you know them personaly nobody ever post that stuff up. I dropped my car from a 12.8 to a 12.3 in about 4 times at the track with out making one more horse power. My point is dont get depressed if your car doesnt do what you wanted it to the first few times you go to the track. It takes time and effort to make a car go fast not just hp . Everybody has there secrets im more of a person that wants everybody to go fast and if you asked i would tell you everything i know to help you get the most out of your car thats just how i am. I read all about cars all the time making way more hp then there times show. I also read about cars running alot faster then there hp shows there supposed to. It just goes back to me saying try to get the most out of what you got .

The fact is were way behind the west caost and odds are everything were trying to do has already been done . Im more impressed about a all motor b16 running low 13s then a 650 hp hatch runnning low 11s. i mean fast is fast but your not impressive till you make your car faster then its supposed to be no matter what it is. Ill put it like this with out hopefully pissing anybody off. We all think spoolin car is fast as hell but he knows its a 9 second car and he is not going to be impressed untill it runs that . i feel like making the hp all motor that i am it should run a high 11 and im not going to be impressed unrill it does . I heard joey say tonight i have to admit such and such car is fast for what it is and its a 14 second car but for what it is and the power its making it runs better then any car he has seen like that before so he is impressed .

I know alot of you guys put alot of money in your turbo cars so when i say cheap horse power i mean for the price of a turbo kit and how much hp it adds you cant spend that on a allmotor car and get that much hp. i can honestly say i have never seen a 185 hp turbo car running high 12s . I can say a stock h22 with a h2b will run high 12s at 185 hp so thats pretty strong. I just see so many people save up years to do a turbo build just to run low 13s or high 12s when they could have done that alot cheaper and more dependable with a all motor set up. I f your only goal is to run tens then by all means go turbo odds are your not gonna do it all motor . I bought everything to go turbo for my next build but sold it all and decided to go all motor again . I simply dont have the money to run with jj spec or spoolin so why not run all motor so that i can win at import show down or some were like that. I know there are a ton of people on this site that would love to have a high 12 second car and if they new how cheap it was with a simple h22 set up they would do it instead of going turbo.

I sometimes wish i went turbo who dont want a 10 second car but the simple fact is if i pull up beside a 350hp turbo car and win ive done somehing with my little all motor setup. he wins who cares he was supposed to get my point . everybody has to just sit down and figure out there goals to figure out what they want . Im just trying to educate people so they can figure ouy what they wanna do .What i want is to have a chance at winning in my class and to impress e people and running low 12s or high 11s does that . A ten second car is a ten second car its always going to impresse people so i dont wanna take anythinmg away from fast turbo cars they have all my respect just make sure you gat as much out of your car as you ncan and you will have peoples respect simple as that . I saw jj last year running so close to tens in his single turboed integra that he couldnt stand it (11 flat if i remebered corectly ) and he was estatic i honestly beleive he was happier with it then running mid 10s with his h22 because the h22 should have been faster the d series wasnt supposed to run that fast . The first night i took the hatch to the track it ran a 12.8 everubody was happy as hell even jj was like all motor damn but i was disapointed because with the hp i fet like it shoiuld have run low 12s . When it run low 12s i was a little happy but its still nothing special to me because it should run high 11s.

[h22 jones]

To everybody that beleives all the variables can be overcome with a turbo car to run the same as a all motor car explain me this. Skunk2s all motor running 9s at 3xx hp and it takes them well over 600hp to run that with a turbo car. I understand what everybody is saying and beleive me i dont feel like i know everything thats why i opened this thread was to get answers . Everybody ask what if i use this cam or this piston they always ask about certain parts why not ask about whole setups . If when i got in the honda game if i could have read do this this and this allmotor and you will run close to this or this this and this turboed you would run around this time it would have made things alot easier. I read something a guy posted on honda tech the other day that realy hit home. A guy showed his time at the track and how much hp it was making (like 290 hp and run 10.9 all motor) but when asked what he was running he wouldnt tell started being real secrative. one of the guys pointed out that he had been on that site for years getting information and had actualy even called alot of people on there to find out certain things to but when asked about his car he wouldnt share any. Its honda tech made to help others so how is it fair to use everybody to build your car but act shitiy when asked about your own setup. Im sure there are somethings you dont wanna say but atleast help out as much as you can when somebody aske cause odds are you had to ask somebody before to.

I realy want to keep this thread alive i believe it will help others out alot thats on this site and any any information anybody has will help . Sometimes its the little stuff that realy wake a car up little sruff people wou;ld have never though of but that if somebody would have read before it might have stuck in there head and helped them out. I get on honda tech and read and read and read thats the only way to learn stuff and i could get alot bigger espons e posting this on honda tech especialy since there are alot more all motor cars . I would rather talk with people i know and maybe i can help then people in california.

[David88vert]

Let me make this clear. At the track, you do not race HP numbers, you race ET numbers. HP numbers are "raced" on a dyno only. It doesn't matter how much power you have, what matter is what ET you run.

The argument of which is better - NA or turbo - is dumb at best. They are just two different methods to achieving an ET.

However, if you take a serious look at motorsports that run gasoline fuel, you will see that turbo cars dominate the unlimited classes.
When F1 was unrestricted in the 90's, they top cars were all turboed.
Rally cars, limited in engine size, are all turbo in the premier class.
Outlaw 10.5 cars are dominated by turbo cars now.
If NA was the advantage, turbos wouldn't exist in any of them.

So, why did they go turbo? It's simple. Turbos provide a lot of power per dollar, and traction is what is hard to find, not power.

If you had a power limted class, with unlimited cubic inches, THEN an NA car would dominate. The only reason for that is because NA cars develop a more linear powerband than turbo cars - generally, thus supplying more power as an average through the power band. Again, that is a generalization, but usually true on cars with the equivalent amount of hp.

[*EFilliated*]

Jones ur my hero, lol good Shit

[jerseyef9]

chris miller 8.50 @ 173mph turbo b series
jeremy lookofsky 9.10 @ 148 all motor kseries

is this what you relating to mike?

[JJSPEC Racing]

I saw jj last year running so close to tens in his single turboed integra that he couldnt stand it (11 flat if i remebered corectly ) and he was estatic i honestly beleive he was happier with it then running mid 10s with his h22 because the h22 should have been faster the d series wasnt supposed to run that fast . The first night i took the hatch to the track it ran a 12.8 everubody was happy as hell even jj was like all motor damn but i was disapointed because with the hp i fet like it shoiuld have run low 12s . When it run low 12s i was a little happy but its still nothing special to me because it should run high 11s.

Damn right I was happy for you to be running some good times. Last yyear(2009) I was extremely pleased with the d series and I will tell you why. I know what it take to make a fwd front wheel drive to run a low nine second pass at almost 160 mph. What is truly fun to me is to take something, really anything and tweak it just a little and make small improvements. The Teg ran a low 13 first weekend out and ended up running 11.1 @ 130.77 by the end of the year. I even drove it to the track one weekend, changed the tires out and ran some 11's then drove it home. I know what you are trying to get at with this thread. I could have pushed it farther over the winter but I had a bunch of parts laying around that werent going anywhere so I decided to put them back in service. I was really happy with the results as the first time out it went 10.4 @ 139 on a pump gas tune. I have since sold the parts as I needed funds to run my business this year and that was definately the right decision(just ask my accountant,lol). There will be new stuff coming up in the future and I am sure that it will be exciting to me as it will start off small and snowball into something big. As far as all motor vs turbo the debate will go on forever. I know some all motor guys(V8 world) that run low 6's, that is right, in the quarter, at over 200mph. It is all about how the chassis works, how the powerband works, how the driver works, etc. An all motor Honda that is properly built AND driven will beat a forced induction Honda with the same hp. The engine's broad powerband plays a huge role in the equation. Cant wait to see what you have coming out next year Mr Jones!

[h22 jones]

I agree with both of you i just wanted to get everybody elses opion and also give everybody something to read to help them decide what they may or may not want to build in the future. It doesnt matter if its a turboed d series trying to hit tens or a all motor hatch trying to hit 11s as lonf as it is impressive for what it is you will be happy. Most people on here are not building ten second hondas there just trying to build something to out run there buddy . If you did your home work and found a little all motor build to run with your turbo buddies you might do it. Everytime im at the track somebody ask me how much boost you running lol and when you tell them all motor there like no way. I think people are just uneducated on what all motor can do so im not trying to jump on a all motor band wagon more just trying to educate on both so then you can decide what to do. if you go to import show down and you enter in the race with the turbo guys there are always twice as many people in all motor street as any other bracket . What is your odds of winning i mean realy think about it there is always going to be a ton of fast turbo cars built right that your racing against so you better have deap pockets and alot of knowlegde. I dont have deep pockets (no smart comments i spend my money on other things lol) but i do have knowlegde but its nothing that anybody else couldnt read up on and figure out . So you enter the all motor class there are half the entries and you actualy have a chance at winning even if your not a shop . i realy dont care what anybody builds as long as its done right but i do wish people would enter these competitions instead of running test and tune . If the import guys dont start backing the import scene and races there isnt going to be any thats just being real with you guys . Its all about having fun and you have to learn some were so the next race they have near you dont run test and tune run in the race its normaly only ten more dollars and it would help fill up the barckets and make these events worth coming to . Like i said if its all about winning to you run all motor everybody has a chance winning all motor if you dont beleive me pull up the times it took to win in the past . Any stripped stock h2b would have a good chance winning a all motor bracket and be a beast on the streets .

[JJSPEC Racing]

I like the "dont just run t&t, enter a class and run" attitude. There are lots of times the quicker car wont win. They may screw up at the tree, break, miss a gear or have a number of issues haunt them that would let a slower car drive on past. I believe consistency > fast. I wish more people would enter so there would be a better payout and more exposure.

[Apex1972]

Good deal.

damn no faith in my driving ability I guess. I have actually cut some pretty good lights before when I used to go out regularly,just takes practice. and WOT shifting helps too.

[Apex1972]

I agree with both of you i just wanted to get everybody elses opion and also give everybody something to read to help them decide what they may or may not want to build in the future. It doesnt matter if its a turboed d series trying to hit tens or a all motor hatch trying to hit 11s as lonf as it is impressive for what it is you will be happy. Most people on here are not building ten second hondas there just trying to build something to out run there buddy . If you did your home work and found a little all motor build to run with your turbo buddies you might do it. Everytime im at the track somebody ask me how much boost you running lol and when you tell them all motor there like no way. I think people are just uneducated on what all motor can do so im not trying to jump on a all motor band wagon more just trying to educate on both so then you can decide what to do. if you go to import show down and you enter in the race with the turbo guys there are always twice as many people in all motor street as any other bracket . What is your odds of winning i mean realy think about it there is always going to be a ton of fast turbo cars built right that your racing against so you better have deap pockets and alot of knowlegde. I dont have deep pockets (no smart comments i spend my money on other things lol) but i do have knowlegde but its nothing that anybody else couldnt read up on and figure out . So you enter the all motor class there are half the entries and you actualy have a chance at winning even if your not a shop . i realy dont care what anybody builds as long as its done right but i do wish people would enter these competitions instead of running test and tune . If the import guys dont start backing the import scene and races there isnt going to be any thats just being real with you guys . Its all about having fun and you have to learn some were so the next race they have near you dont run test and tune run in the race its normaly only ten more dollars and it would help fill up the barckets and make these events worth coming to . Like i said if its all about winning to you run all motor everybody has a chance winning all motor if you dont beleive me pull up the times it took to win in the past . Any stripped stock h2b would have a good chance winning a all motor bracket and be a beast on the streets .


/\ truf

[h22 jones]

I respect everybodys driving abilitys but when the shit hits the fan i want to be the one enjoying it cause im the one going to get greasy fixing it lol. Ill put it this way we run a none interferance motor meaning our valve reliefs are so big even with the valve open all the way in vtec and the piston at top dead center they want hit the pistont About two years ago we had a brand new timing belt (honda) snap at 104 right at the end of the track . Well that shouldnt be a problem right the valves cant hit the pistons well they can get tagled up with each other then get bent to hell and back then lol. Instead of going into the valve relief wholes they will then hit the piston because they are all bent out of wack .It was a nightmare we got the head fixed put it back on heard a thump when we turned the motor over and the crank was cracked in the back main journal(bearing wasnt even hurt lol). all ths cause of a faulty timing belt now who wants to make a pass in my car and take on the liabilitys lol i didnt thing so.

[japan4racing]

I wont let anyone run my car either....If some one ran my car and broke it they better be ready to pay for the fixin!

[Apex1972]

it was a joke guys. why would i wanna drive that slow ass hatch anyway??? lol Jones, take a new picture man that shit looks like a salvage yard photo. jk bro u know i joke a little.

[h22 jones]

It was more to joey then to you lol. I was more trying to make the point that I dont beleive i am a better driver then antbody else and i saw a oppurtunity to tell that story which realy sucked when it happened but it gives people something to read lol. if you havnt noticed importatlanta has been dead lately with out anything going so i been trying to give everybody something to read thats worth a shit or we could all go back to bashing houston lol were is he anyway. Trust me i probably joke more then you do lol. Honestly no offence to anybody on this site but if i was going to get a driver it would be jj (jimmy jones) or james berta not that joey cant drive i just have to stick with the old crew lol . joey is a young buck ha ha. Also there is a difference between fast and quick you stated my slow as hatch so i want you to get a turbo car and we will see who is quicker . I have a h series trany realy high fifth gear and it will do every bit of it lol .It might not be quick but its deffently fast.