Interesting Discussion on Beliefs

[bu villain]

This discussion really made me think of the debates that go on here sometimes. We are all guilty at some point or another.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128490874

[BanginJimmy]

HIGHLY partisan piece of 'reporting'.

Oh, and increased illegal immigration is in itself proof of increased crime.

[bu villain]

I'm not sure why you think this is so partisan. The topic is apolitcal. It is about how many peoples politcal views are not based on facts. It doesn't accuse republicans or democrats as being worse than the other. Conversely, it states:

"And all of us, liberals and conservatives, you know, have some beliefs that aren't true"

"And I mean, this is because we have a Democratic president now, and, you know, there were similar things going on with George W. Bush"

It does not endorse any view on any particular policy. I challenge you to find anything that says what should be done about any political issue. You mentioned illegal immigration meaning an increase of crime but that's not what the article stated. It said:

"So some of the people in the case of Dana's article who, you know, are committed to the belief that, you know, immigration has increased crime"

It does not mention "illegal immigration" just "immigration". Even if you want to argue that "illegal immigration" is implied, the claims that are being discussed are about increases in violence, kidnappings. and drugs. No where in the article does it say anything about how illegal immigration should be handled.

[BanginJimmy]

It is partisan by the topics it uses as examples and the way it presents them. They went to great lengths to find any inaccuracies in Brewer's statements, but didnt mention any coming from the left even though the ones coming from congress are far more controversial.

More pointedly, by simply using the term "immigration" instead of the more accurate "illegal immigration" they are changing the context of the entire debate.

[bu villain]

It is partisan by the topics it uses as examples and the way it presents them. They went to great lengths to find any inaccuracies in Brewer's statements, but didnt mention any coming from the left even though the ones coming from congress are far more controversial.

They used quotes from McCain and Brewer because they are the primary political figures from Arizona involved with the Arizona law. Besides, the point is that the statements made are verifiably false or at least not supported by what can be proven, so why aren't we discussing that rather than what political party they belong to?


More pointedly, by simply using the term "immigration" instead of the more accurate "illegal immigration" they are changing the context of the entire debate.

Except this isn't a debate about illegal immigration. It is about beliefs that are not based on facts and often despite facts. Immigration was only one example. They also discuss religious beliefs, 9/11 conspiracy theory, FEMA camps, nuclear power, and others.

[BanginJimmy]

They used quotes from McCain and Brewer because they are the primary political figures from Arizona involved with the Arizona law. Besides, the point is that the statements made are verifiably false or at least not supported by what can be proven, so why aren't we discussing that rather than what political party they belong to?

Name a single politician that ever tells the truth. Hell, Obama got a trillion dollar takeover of our health care passed without speaking a word of truth. Where is your disgust over that?




Except this isn't a debate about illegal immigration. It is about beliefs that are not based on facts and often despite facts. Immigration was only one example. They also discuss religious beliefs, 9/11 conspiracy theory, FEMA camps, nuclear power, and others.

And it is partisan in nature. It avoids the hottest topics that would look bad for dems and focuses on the hottest topic that reflects the GOP in a negative light. Dont just listen to the words, listen to what they are implying also.

[bu villain]

Name a single politician that ever tells the truth. Hell, Obama got a trillion dollar takeover of our health care passed without speaking a word of truth. Where is your disgust over that?

This thread is not about immigration or healthcare. It's not about Obama or McCain. What I wanted to do was have a discussion on how we can have a more open and honest debate on policital issues. How can we help people to base their beliefs off facts? How do we mitigate the effects of politicians who lie or are simply misinformed?

Since you seem to feel so strongly about Obama's health care bill, we can use that as an example if you like. If support from the bill came from deception or selectively ignored facts, how can we fight that?



And it is partisan in nature. It avoids the hottest topics that would look bad for dems and focuses on the hottest topic that reflects the GOP in a negative light. Dont just listen to the words, listen to what they are implying also.

I believe they are implying that many people's beliefs are not based on fact... and that's what I would like to discuss.

[BanginJimmy]

This thread is not about immigration or healthcare. It's not about Obama or McCain. What I wanted to do was have a discussion on how we can have a more open and honest debate on policital issues. How can we help people to base their beliefs off facts? How do we mitigate the effects of politicians who lie or are simply misinformed?

Since you seem to feel so strongly about Obama's health care bill, we can use that as an example if you like. If support from the bill came from deception or selectively ignored facts, how can we fight that?




I believe they are implying that many people's beliefs are not based on fact... and that's what I would like to discuss.


There is an entire thread or 6 about the health care bill and the obvious lies that were being propagated. You will find that people that drool over Obama and massive govt want a single payer system with the govt making all of your heath care decisions for you. Then you have people that actually enjoy having access to the best health care in the world and dont want govt to screw it up. If you want a list of all the lies you will have a go through those threads again but there were at least a dozen or so major ones. The couple off the top of my head are being able to keep your current insurance if you like it and that the bill will bring costs down.

[bu villain]

I give up...close thread please

[BanginJimmy]

I give up...close thread please

I guess the truth didnt fall in line with your beliefs huh?

[bu villain]

No, I actually agree with some of the things you said but you refuse to comment on the original topic and just want to debate policy.

[BanginJimmy]

No, I actually agree with some of the things you said but you refuse to comment on the original topic and just want to debate policy.


I did comment on it. I just didnt say what you wanted to hear. My points about policy were simply real world examples, much like the original clip discussed.

[bu villain]

I did comment on it. I just didnt say what you wanted to hear. My points about policy were simply real world examples, much like the original clip discussed.

You're right, I don't want to hear statement that are irrelevant to the purpose of this thread. I'm not looking for examples (which you are giving), I am looking for solutions (which you are giving none of). Please just respond to my single motivation for creating this thread:

How can we fight against beliefs when the belief holders won't change their beliefs even after presented with contrary facts?

[BanginJimmy]

You never will, especially when it comes to politics. Today's political world is so partisan that both sides are attacking the other side for no better reason than they are a republican/democrat. The issue doesnt matter, what matters is left or right.

[bu villain]

So your stance is give up? What is the point of all the debate on here then?

[BanginJimmy]

I havent given up but if you want an example look at the back and forth me and Blender have had in several threads. His first and only real opinion is a childish attack on anyone that doesnt drool over a picture of Obama or is in any way right of far left field. You simply cannot reason with that.

[bu villain]

Perhaps he would be more open to your point of view if you didn't insult him back (even if it is warranted). Additionally using hyperbole such as "His first and only real opinion is a childish attack on anyone that doesnt drool over a picture of Obama or is in any way right of far left field" probably isn't going to make him more open to your ideas. Many times both of you all seem like you just want to "win" the debate rather than actually learn from each other.

I think showing a little more respect for others (this applies to everyone) would really help the discussions and would lead to more informed conclusions.

[BanginJimmy]

Perhaps he would be more open to your point of view if you didn't insult him back (even if it is warranted). Additionally using hyperbole such as "His first and only real opinion is a childish attack on anyone that doesnt drool over a picture of Obama or is in any way right of far left field" probably isn't going to make him more open to your ideas. Many times both of you all seem like you just want to "win" the debate rather than actually learn from each other.

I think showing a little more respect for others (this applies to everyone) would really help the discussions and would lead to more informed conclusions.


You are probably correct now, but when he first started posting here I like to think that i was above his childish name calling. Now, I just prefer to play the little games with him. You can look back any post he has ever made though, you will not find a single one that he isnt attacking someone on the right.

[bu villain]

Yes I agree he certainly can be pretty inflammatory (even when I agree with him). Both of you make good points although you come from very different perspectives. However, it really inhibits a persons arguments if you have to filter out all the attacks and hyperbole to get to them. I guess a lot of people enjoy the personal drama but I much prefer debates based solely on logical and thoughtful argument. Otherwise I could just go read the whoreslounge.

In the end I know I am probably asking too much from a political subsection of a car forum but ironically, its worse elsewhere if you read the comments of most of the major news sites.

[Browning151]

How can we fight against beliefs when the belief holders won't change their beliefs even after presented with contrary facts?

Everyone slices, dices and slants the facts their way to some extent, some people more than others. You personally have to be able to read several points of view and determine a truth by listening to what is being said and discerning what is fact and what is exaggerated. That requires someone to have some intellectual ability, and sadly most people who attempt to debate politics only do so by repeating what they hear from Olbermann, Matthews, Maddow, Beck, O'rielly, Hannity etc. To have true open debate you have to educate people, and by that I don't mean educate them on what one side or the other stands for, but educate them on how to discern fact from fiction. People don't know how to research, gather facts, evaluate them and then draw a conclusion based on ALL of the information, plain and simple, and that won't be changing anytime soon. If anything this country is headed in the exact opposite direction of everyone attacking everyone else based on what they hear in the media and nothing ever getting accomplished.

[bu villain]

I agree that our educational system is very bad at teaching critical thinking. Most schooling is nothing more than memorization of facts and rules. Of course with the pay we give teachers, we can't expect the quality to be that high. Even the good teachers are forced to focus on test scores too much.

However, I don't think education is the whole answer either. Many politicians are very intelligent people but are to worried about straying from their parties. Likewise, commentators on TV and radio are paid for pushing a one sided point of view. Those who are loud, obstinent, and degrade their opponents are celebrated and those who calmly listen to multiple views, admit grey areas, and are generally kind, respectful people get marginalized. I feel this is an increasing trend where entertainment value trumps moral value. Or maybe its just that anger and fear are stronger motivators than compassion and understanding.

[Browning151]

I agree that our educational system is very bad at teaching critical thinking. Most schooling is nothing more than memorization of facts and rules. Of course with the pay we give teachers, we can't expect the quality to be that high. Even the good teachers are forced to focus on test scores too much.

However, I don't think education is the whole answer either. Many politicians are very intelligent people but are to worried about straying from their parties. Likewise, commentators on TV and radio are paid for pushing a one sided point of view. Those who are loud, obstinent, and degrade their opponents are celebrated and those who calmly listen to multiple views, admit grey areas, and are generally kind, respectful people get marginalized. I feel this is an increasing trend where entertainment value trumps moral value. Or maybe its just that anger and fear are stronger motivators than compassion and understanding.

Gov't schools are designed to produce good gov't subjects, not to teach us how to really understand our gov't and know what is best for us. We are taught that gov't knows best for the most part, which is part of why we have so much of a welfare state now but I digress, that's a whole other debate. My comment wasn't aimed so much at the education system as much as the laziness of the general population who have no desire to understand things that actually influence and to some extent control their lives. Let's face it, we live in a Hollywood society. Who blew who and who went to rehab is more important to most Americans than what their elected representatives are doing that determines the long term welfare or failure of our nation as a whole. How do we change the celebrity worship mindset? I'm not sure where we could even start.

[bu villain]

Let's face it, we live in a Hollywood society. Who blew who and who went to rehab is more important to most Americans than what their elected representatives are doing that determines the long term welfare or failure of our nation as a whole. How do we change the celebrity worship mindset? I'm not sure where we could even start.

Yeah this is a difficult issue. Maybe this is why so many people are content to just pretend like they know all the answers to every issue and then call others who don't agree with them names. Getting informed, having an open mind, and engaging in respectful debate is not only too much work, its not as exciting as reality tv.

[Browning151]

Yeah this is a difficult issue. Maybe this is why so many people are content to just pretend like they know all the answers to every issue and then call others who don't agree with them names. Getting informed, having an open mind, and engaging in respectful debate is not only too much work, its not as exciting as reality tv.

Like they say, "ignorance is bliss." Most people have absolutely no clue as to what is going on, and don't care to ever learn because, as you said, it's not as exciting as reality tv. I honestly think it is going to take some very drastic and "painful" things to happen to ever open many peoples eyes.

[ek forever]

it's NPR.

It's partisan.