All motor GSR questions

[integra82786]

All help is appreciated, and reps for sound advice.

I'm doing an all motor gsr build in my Integra and I'm trying to figure out the best way to get my desired goals. I've already purchased Crower cams and valvetrain for the head along with Ferrea valves. I have an intake manifold, throttle body, intake and exhaust. My questions are about the bottom end.

I'm looking for around 11.5:1 to 12:1 compression, and I was looking into using b16 pistons. The question is, which set? I have an ls block and a gsr block with crank, rods and pistons still in it. Which brings me to question two. Use the gsr crank and rods or ls crank and rods? Is there a benefit or down side to either?

Finally, I'm going to hone the block I use. My question here is should I just bore .25 over and get oversized pistons and rings, or can I put new factory size pistons and rings on a honed block?

Thanks again for any input, again reps will be given to all useful advice.

[jerseyef9]

i say bore it over and the whole b16 is cool especially if you get your hands on ctr piston which you nice compression ratio man i hope i help alittle man

[FasTech]

I remember hearing something about the gsr crank and rods being shorter in the LS block, I believe. Just run the CTR/B16 pistons in the LS block and do a high compression LS/vtec. Then you could run ITR cams and a ITR intake mani for alittle extra Hp & Tq numbers. If you were planning to stay somewhat OEM with the build.

[DarKStaR]

I would use the ls crank and rods in the gsr block. That way you wont have to do an lsvtec conversion and you can use the factory oil squirters. Using the LS crank will give you more tq due to longer stroke than the gsr. As for what fasttech said about the blocks, he is wrong. As long as you use ls rods with ls crank and gsr rods with gsr crank you will be fine. B16 pistons will be a nice setup since it will get you around 12:1 cr. The difference between the 2 kinds of b16 pistons are only like .2-.3 points of compression. If you do this setup be sure to get arp rod bolts if you want to safely rev to 8k+. Also if you do b16 pistons just bore the block since 81mm pistons are easier to find than .25 over. Afterwards get it tuned if you want it to last.

[integra82786]

So hone the block, put stock size pistons in. Will I have to balance the ls crank to the gsr block? Thanks again for the advice.

[jerseyef9]

i highly reccomend balancing your bottom end man just to be the safe side so i highly suggest it man good luck with the build man

[DTC_MIKEM]

I would use the ls crank and rods in the gsr block. That way you wont have to do an lsvtec conversion and you can use the factory oil squirters. Using the LS crank will give you more tq due to longer stroke than the gsr. As for what fasttech said about the blocks, he is wrong. As long as you use ls rods with ls crank and gsr rods with gsr crank you will be fine. B16 pistons will be a nice setup since it will get you around 12:1 cr. The difference between the 2 kinds of b16 pistons are only like .2-.3 points of compression. If you do this setup be sure to get arp rod bolts if you want to safely rev to 8k+. Also if you do b16 pistons just bore the block since 81mm pistons are easier to find than .25 over. Afterwards get it tuned if you want it to last.

x2

[greasemunkey]

So hone the block, put stock size pistons in. Will I have to balance the ls crank to the gsr block? Thanks again for the advice.

balancing the crank means you are balancing it to the internals that are being rotated. Yes get it balanced its not expensive, you will have to bring in the rods, pistons and crank you will be using. I would use gsr everything because its stronger and can handle the rpms, factory they come with a block girdle as well, which is a def plus. I used b16 pistons in mine, you wont see much of a difference unless you have a cam to take advantage of the compression. If you have the money get it bored .20 over and buy new pistons and rings, most places online have b16 replica pistons in different sizes for about the same as you would get at stock bore. Hope that helps.

[integra82786]

The p30 pistons have a higher dome right? I think I'm gonna go with the pr3's just for valve clearance sake. The compression difference isn't enough to worry about.

[SPOOLIN]

So hone the block, put stock size pistons in. Will I have to balance the ls crank to the gsr block? Thanks again for the advice.

do you have to balance a crank to a block: Absolutely not, crank don't care what block its in.
You can have the rods and pistons all balanced which basically means making them weigh all the exact same. It is a nice thing but not a huge deal at all, especially if you are using a bunch of "oem" parts in the bottom end.

[driftORdrag]

I would use gsr everything because its stronger and can handle the rpms, factory they come with a block girdle as well, which is a def plus.

Lets end this myth.. ls and gsr pistons and rods are made of the same material so how is one stronger than another? Also if you want to rev the ls bottom end change the pos rod bolts that they come with.

[greasemunkey]

its not a myth. gsr has factory block girdle, the factory rod bolts can handle the stress of 8k as well..thats what makes it stronger, we all know honda makes the rods and crank of the same material. Just helps for beginners not to mismatch parts, especially if its their first time.

[SPOOLIN]

the LS rods dont have the girth and rod bolts to support as much revving out and prolonged revving. I lol when i hear people talk about that stupid ass girdle. I run an LS block without a damn girdle and rev to 10-10,500 and make over 800hp perfectly fine on stock main bolts and no girdle of any type. the one time i did run an ls block modified with a girdle the only thing it EVER changed for me was adding time to my build looking for a gsr windage tray lol.

[greasemunkey]

I stand corrected, Honda did put it in place for a reason, so I always figured it kept it a little safer at least. Either way I still feel better with it on.

[integra82786]

So which stroke is better for an all motor build, ls or gsr? And if I go ls can and should I keep the girdle in the block.

[SPOOLIN]

if the block came with a girdle, you need to leave all of that in. Use the ls stroke, it will be perfectly fine and will give you a pinch of displacement and raise your compression a pinch more if using the same pistons with a gsr crank and rods.

[Starrfire]

And if you've ever done this before, which it doesn't sound like the OP has, just go ahead and buy Ls rod bearings for your setup and Golden Eagle oil squirter block offs. You'll be there for a couple of hours bending those things to where the oil squirters don't hit the crank or piston on at least 2 of 4 cylinders. They hit the counterweights on the crank, and the pistons at BDC so its really gay. I say block them off, the plugs are less than $30. Then just try some ACL race Ls rod bearings so they have the lubrication hole and then you will be golden. It's a plus not having to buy an Ls/vtec kit and still being able to use the timing covers.
Secondly I would not use the aftermarket replica b16 pistons if I didn't have to. If there is some slight marring just let a professional see it and they will tell you what you need to know but if not I'd just take it .25mm overbore and use factory pistons. I've used the ones you'll be buying off ebay and they have the "oh so slightest" taper in the skirt from top to bottom. I'm sure the Honda's won't.

Balancing couldn't hurt, usually about $150.

[SPOOLIN]

the difference between ACL race and ACL Standard is not a lubricating hole, they all have that, they have to have that. Its the fact that the race bearings lack the final detail coatings on the surface.

[Starrfire]

^^^ But I'm saying instead of using the gsr style bearings without the lubrication hole and using the oil squirters to use an Ls stye bearing and plug the squirter holes b/c the squirters are more of a headache than they are worth. I know of the Coatings I have 3 sets downstairs.

[integra82786]

Where are the oil squirters supposed to hit? And I'm just going to mic the crank and rod journals to make sure what bearings I need, or let a shop do it. But if I bore the block .25 over I don't need to get bigger pistons? Or do I just need .25 over rings? Thanks a bunch for all this help guys. I'm probably gonna let Goza or an equally reputable shop do the work, just bring them my parts. I knew there was a lot of small details that could make or break the build. I don't wanna spend all this money just to blow up a motor.

[Starrfire]

The squirters are going to hit the crank and the pistons. They will have to be all kinds of bent and test fitted multiple times each.

[SPOOLIN]

remove squirters.

but i have no idea what you are talking about with the bearings. You need to use the right bearings for the crank and rods, if you use GSR bearings on an LS crank and rods, the bearings will be off center in the rod bore.

[integra82786]

Does the ls block not have squirters or are they angled differently? And if I block off the squirters then what lubricates the crank assembly?

[SPOOLIN]

no squirters in an ls block, the crank is lubricated from inside, the oil enters through the main bearing bores. Oil squirters are purely for "cooling" the pistons off.

[integra82786]

Gotcha. Now Starrfire said go .25 over bore and use stock size pistons. Does that mean just get .25 over sized rings? I thought the rings and pistons were supposed to match the bore, .25 over bore means .25 over pistons as well right?

[SPOOLIN]

I thought the rings and pistons were supposed to match the bore, .25 over bore means .25 over pistons as well right?

Correct, .20 over is 81.5mm. I would do that, that is standard.

[Starrfire]

I was saying in mm. 81.25 is .10 over. which is the only oversized piston they make for b series in overbore from the factory.
And with 81.25 bore you have to have the overbore pistons as well as the rings to go along with it.

[integra82786]

That's what I figured you meant, just wanted to clerify.

[nelson9995]

Im doing a similar setup. Use the pr3 pistons. IMO they yield a high, but also safe compression for an oem piston.

[x_doug_x]

wow, i read half the posts in this thread and realised there were a bunch of dumb posts.

i just put a ls crank, ls rods and type r pistons in a gsr block. i like it, you do get more bottom end......

now to anyone who says the gsr rotating aseembly is stronger, they straight need slapped.

the ls rods are made from the same material as the gsr rods, the ls rods are about a centimeter or so thicker width x width both ways. the ls rods also have more surface area on the crank for the rod bearings, you have less chance of spinning a rod bearing. <<< this is what i see by looking at it. you search the internet other people say differently. i had a chipped p28 with a type r map and 9500rpm redline, i literally beat the shit out of my car trying to spin a rod bearing. i drive to florida and everywhere else, i wanted to know if it was going to go. it didn't you don't need to get the oil squirter delete kit, but you do need to bend the oil squirters down a hair, a long screwdriver and rubber mallet will do this for you.

now, the bad thing about ls-vtec or putting a ls rotating assembly in a v-tec motor is the stroke. when turning that high of rpm's over a long period of time you can egg shape your cylinders, if you don't believe me search google, there are write ups on it.....

i used usdm type r pistons, ls crank, ls rods gsr block, and gsr head. , here is a compression calculator that will tell you the ratio.

http://tachedout.com/includes/calc.html



11.22:1 is the compression ratio for this build. with stock b16 pistons it might be a little lower.


"edit" i dunno if i said this above, i did not get my rotating assembly balanced but it doesn't idle rough or anything it sounds good. i was on a budget though and would recomend you getting yours balanced. also i did use arp rod bolts and would suggest you do the same.

another "edit" the oil squirters required being bent down about an 1/8 inch and they were in the middle of the pistons/counterweights. i would recomend using a long screwdriver to bend them down with the pistons out from the cylinder holes/top of block. when you assembly the crank and have the outside caps tight put your harmonic balancer bolt back in and rotate the crank. if they hit tap them very softly back towards the pistons. don't do a lot of bending, if they get weak you will need the block off kit, but it was really easy imo. i just tapped them all down a hair and they missed the pistons lol

[x_doug_x]

i would also like to add, since there are oil squirters and more bearing contact i would recomend a oil pump that flowed a little more than stock. i think the type r oil pump does? it's your call though.

[Z0_o6]

ls, gsr, and type r oil pumps are all the same.

[DarKStaR]

wow, i read half the posts in this thread and realised there were a bunch of dumb posts.

i just put a ls crank, ls rods and type r pistons in a gsr block. i like it, you do get more bottom end......

now to anyone who says the gsr rotating aseembly is stronger, they straight need slapped.

the ls rods are made from the same material as the gsr rods, the ls rods are about a centimeter or so thicker width x width both ways. the ls rods also have more surface area on the crank for the rod bearings, you have less chance of spinning a rod bearing. <<< this is what i see by looking at it. you search the internet other people say differently. i had a chipped p28 with a type r map and 9500rpm redline, i literally beat the shit out of my car trying to spin a rod bearing. i drive to florida and everywhere else, i wanted to know if it was going to go. it didn't you don't need to get the oil squirter delete kit, but you do need to bend the oil squirters down a hair, a long screwdriver and rubber mallet will do this for you.

now, the bad thing about ls-vtec or putting a ls rotating assembly in a v-tec motor is the stroke. when turning that high of rpm's over a long period of time you can egg shape your cylinders, if you don't believe me search google, there are write ups on it.....

i used usdm type r pistons, ls crank, ls rods gsr block, and gsr head. , here is a compression calculator that will tell you the ratio.

http://tachedout.com/includes/calc.html



11.22:1 is the compression ratio for this build. with stock b16 pistons it might be a little lower.


"edit" i dunno if i said this above, i did not get my rotating assembly balanced but it doesn't idle rough or anything it sounds good. i was on a budget though and would recomend you getting yours balanced. also i did use arp rod bolts and would suggest you do the same.

another "edit" the oil squirters required being bent down about an 1/8 inch and they were in the middle of the pistons/counterweights. i would recomend using a long screwdriver to bend them down with the pistons out from the cylinder holes/top of block. when you assembly the crank and have the outside caps tight put your harmonic balancer bolt back in and rotate the crank. if they hit tap them very softly back towards the pistons. don't do a lot of bending, if they get weak you will need the block off kit, but it was really easy imo. i just tapped them all down a hair and they missed the pistons lol
The ls crank gives you more stroke, usually leading to more tq. I think thats what some people mean by "bottom end". The problem with the ls rods are the rod bolts not the bearings from what ive seen and read. And ive never heard of cylinders getting egg shaped by running a lsv over a period of time lol. I can see this happening if your pistons are smaller than the bore and have piston slap....And the b16 pistons will give you a higher compression ratio over the usdm itr's. I havnt heard of anybody having a rough idle from not having their rotating assembly balanced, usually that has to do with the tune. But if it idles rough because of the crank, yo shits fucked up lol.


i would also like to add, since there are oil squirters and more bearing contact i would recomend a oil pump that flowed a little more than stock. i think the type r oil pump does? it's your call though.

Somebody correct me if im wrong but the newer oil pumps are the same for type r,gsr, and ls. All the same part number...

edit:zo beat me to it

[x_doug_x]

The ls crank gives you more stroke, usually leading to more tq. I think thats what some people mean by "bottom end". The problem with the ls rods are the rod bolts not the bearings from what ive seen and read. And ive never heard of cylinders getting egg shaped by running a lsv over a period of time lol. I can see this happening if your pistons are smaller than the bore and have piston slap....And the b16 pistons will give you a higher compression ratio over the usdm itr's. I havnt heard of anybody having a rough idle from not having their rotating assembly balanced, usually that has to do with the tune. But if it idles rough because of the crank, yo shits fucked up lol.



Somebody correct me if im wrong but the newer oil pumps are the same for type r,gsr, and ls. All the same part number...

edit:zo beat me to it

i read somewhere one pump flowed higher than the others? where i dunno...


as far as the cylinders go, i can't explain it.
http://www.phatwhippincrx.20m.com/custom4.html read away...


The ideal R/S is 1.75:1 (Three cheers for the B16A, at a near-perfect 1.74:1!).


Why a low R/S is bad for reliability


A low R/S means the rod will be closer to a horizontal angle on its upstroke. This means that more of its force will be pushing the piston horizontally, rather than vertically. What does this mean for your engine? Two things.

1. There will be more stress on the sides and in the center of the rod, rather than on its ends, leaving the rod more vulnerable to breaking. Picture a straw. This is no special straw, just an ordinary drinking straw. Is it going to be easier to bend this straw by applying pressure onto its ends, or at its center? Now think of your poor connecting rods.

2. There will be more stress on your cylinder walls. Once again, the rod is pushing the piston at a more horizontal angle- right into your cylinder walls, rather than up and through them. The risk here is double: A. Putting that piston right through the cylinder wall. B. The cylinder wall will actually flex under the pressure, causing the shape to turn from a circle to an oval or oblong shape. This causes the loss of the seal created by the piston rings. What happens? A small amount of oil could slip past into the combustion chamber. Bad things happen from here: The oil gets combusted, leaving nasty carbon deposits in your combustion chamber and exhaust ports- not a good thing for flow or valve sealing.

[DarKStaR]

maybe on the older ones but now all of them are the same

[x_doug_x]

maybe on the older ones but now all of them are the same


ahh, i guess i made a mistake then. my bad, thanks for the info.

[integra82786]

Back to life!!!! More questions on my build... When installing aftermarket dual springs and retainers, what all is neccesary to make sure the spring tension is right on all the valves? Is spring seat replacement neccesary? Or are they just drop in and run? They will be pushing ferrea stock size valves with a three angle valve job. Might as well since the seats need to be redone for new valves anyway. Thanks again and as always, reps for sound advice!!!