Arizona governor passes SB1070 law.....

[gerardojdm]

I want to know what people think about it.
I myself come from parents who were once Illegal Immigrants. This law doesn't effect me or anyone in my family but It's like treating a human like a dog IMO.

I write about this topic because I don't understand what's with all this new Immigration laws. With that being said, feel free to express yourself(s).

[quickdodge®]

Need more info on the law. Later, QD.

[Vteckidd]

I think it's being blown way out of proportion. The law as I understand it states that an officer can ceck with fed authorities about immigration status ONLY IF the person has been stopped for another crime. They cannot just walk up to random people and ask for "papers"

as far as the profiling argument goes, I'm sorry but Arizona has a huge Mexican illegal immigration problem, common sense tells you that most of the illegals are Latino, and most of the people they prob ask about are going to be Latino it's simple statistics.

If they are a citizen, then you have nothing to worry about IMO comply and move on

[quickdodge®]

The law as I understand it states that an officer can ceck with fed authorities about immigration status ONLY IF the person has been stopped for another crime. They cannot just walk up to random people and ask for "papers"

If this is true, what's the problem? I have no problem with people from less fortunate circumstances/areas/opportunities come to America to take advantage of a great nation. Even at it's weakest moments, we are still the greatest place to live.

I don't think it's fair for people to come over here and pretend to be Americans and take advantage of what America has to offer while the real Americans have to pay their dues (taxes, etc). If you're going to come here, do it 100% and not half-assed.

Why would anyone want to live their life always looking over their shoulder waiting for something to happen that could get them "discovered?" Fearing that your next traffic stop could be your last in the USA. Every second, wondering if this will be your last day here. Too many lives are lost due to illegal immigrants fleeing from police (usually from minor, harmless traffic stops) because they are scared of being caught here illegally and not wanting to be deported. So they run and kill another.

Just senseless, useless and completely avoidable situations. Later, QD.

[Total_Blender]

So the Right says its wrong for the census forms to have questions about race, yet when a bill comes up that says law enforcement can ask for proof of citizenship based on the suspicion of looking "foreign," they are perfectly OK with it? If I were a Latino I'd be pissed off because the bill would basically require you to carry your citizenship stuff on you at all times, when that sort of stuff should be kept in a fire-proof safe in your own home, or a safe-deposit box.

The bill also includes "birther" provisions... just seems like more of the usual GOP trying to maintain the "White/Christian" image of America.:crazy:

[quickdodge®]

... because the bill would basically require you to carry your citizenship stuff on you at all times,...

Common sense would tell me that your citizenship would be stored in a national database to be accessed by LEOs to check. Later, QD.

[Kevs290]

I want to know what people think about it.
I myself come from parents who were once Illegal Immigrants. This law doesn't effect me or anyone in my family but It's like treating a human like a dog IMO.

I write about this topic because I don't understand what's with all this new Immigration laws. With that being said, feel free to express yourself(s).

How do humans differ from dogs? Philosophically speaking of course. The only difference is our ability to think, and therefore think we are somehow special in relation to any other animal on the earth.

Food for thought.

[Nerdsrock22]

The only difference is our ability to think, and therefore think we are somehow special in relation to any other animal on the earth.


Yeah, just that one minor difference. No biggie.

:rolleyes:

I think this law is absolutely wonderful. Echoing what QD said, America is what it is because of immigration, and that's an awesome thing. But it needs to be done legally and honestly.

[ISAtlanta300]

Humans have rights. Dogs don't. (Theoretically speaking).

[ISAtlanta300]

But it needs to be done legally and honestly.

This is starting to sound like a broken record from many, who have never had to go through the process.

It is not as easy as you think.

Maybe an overhaul of the entire process needs to be worked on. But perhaps I am asking too much....

[Nerdsrock22]

This is starting to sound like a broken record from many, who have never had to go through the process.

Actually, I'm fully aware that it is difficult to become a citizen of this country.

It's also very difficult to buy a Lamborghini, that's doesn't mean it's okay to steal one.

When I think about this issue, I'm not thinking about my right to not have to deal with undesirables parading around my streets. I'm considering the thousands of legal immigrants who are investing their time and effort into becoming legalized citizens, while some border hopper gets in scot-free.

[silversol]

I do not have a problem with People who have come to U.S The legal way! I do have a problem with people Who cross illegaly and think they have rights here! I do have a problem with children born here to illegal aliens being considered u.s Citzens! The news And a lot of hispanics have made this a racial issue it is not I would feel the same way if it was white canadians coming from canada illegaly! Let me ask the op this question what would happen to me if I were caught in mexico and a illegal? Yea they would lock my ass up and deport my ass! I think the u.s has been very tollerant considering the situation. There are other nations with mine fields around there borders.

[ISAtlanta300]

Actually, I'm fully aware that it is difficult to become a citizen of this country.

It's also very difficult to buy a Lamborghini, that's doesn't mean it's okay to steal one.

When I think about this issue, I'm not thinking about my right to not have to deal with undesirables parading around my streets. I'm considering the thousands of legal immigrants who are investing their time and effort into becoming legalized citizens, while some border hopper gets in scot-free.

Dude, your analogy makes NO SENSE at all. It is not difficult AT ALL to buy a Lamborghini. All you need is money. It is STILL DIFFICULT to become a legal Citizen or LPR in the USA EVEN you have money. You can't compare economic ability vs. government bureaucracy. Two different things.

But I agree on this: I'm considering the thousands of legal immigrants who are investing their time and effort into becoming legalized citizens, while some border hopper gets in scot-free.

Unfortunately, we are not making the legal process any easier. Hence why hopping the border is the 'easier' way. ( It is not right, I know. I am all for a guarded fence, believe me....but if we are tackling one side, we need to improve the other side as well).
But I agree on this:

[big mac]

yes but you have to think that the people who are trying to become citizens here were illigal too at one point of time.

i also think it is a waste of money to put up all this security and sending poeple back to other countries when the truth is that they will prob be back over in a few weeks. that money could go towards something else

[Nerdsrock22]

Dude, your analogy makes NO SENSE at all. It is not difficult AT ALL to buy a Lamborghini. All you need is money. It is STILL DIFFICULT to become a legal Citizen or LPR in the USA EVEN you have money. You can't compare economic ability vs. government bureaucracy. Two different things.

But I agree on this: I'm considering the thousands of legal immigrants who are investing their time and effort into becoming legalized citizens, while some border hopper gets in scot-free.

Unfortunately, we are not making the legal process any easier. Hence why hopping the border is the 'easier' way. ( It is not right, I know. I am all for a guarded fence, believe me....but if we are tackling one side, we need to improve the other side as well).
But I agree on this:

Getting $300k of disposable income is hardly easy, but fair enough, it's a non-issue.

And I certainly acknowledge your point that the legal citizenship method might need some adjustment, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't enforce existing laws.

Sorry to use another analogy, but you wouldn't address transportation affordability issues by making grand theft auto legal.

[Browning151]

I have never understood why people can't understand "illegal", seems pretty self explanatory to me. Most people have absolutely no problem with someone coming to the US to be a citizen, it's the illegal aspect that gets people pissed off. Since when is "its too hard" an excuse to do something illegally?

[StreetHazard]

I love illegal latinos, I don't want them to go anywhere!

I get my grass cut by one every week for like $20, and it's a pretty big yard.

And they installed hardwood floors for like $300 dollars...chits a good deal, Home Depot wanted like $1,000

[silversol]

I love illegal latinos, I don't want them to go anywhere!

I get my grass cut by one every week for like $20, and it's a pretty big yard.

And they installed hardwood floors for like $300 dollars...chits a good deal, Home Depot wanted like $1,000



THIS IS PART OF WHATS WRONG WITH AMERICA!

[StreetHazard]

THIS IS PART OF WHATS WRONG WITH AMERICA!

what? There is nothing wrong with undercutting the competition...offering a great deal because they circumventing those pesky tax laws, and having absolutely no medical because all of them are uninsured along with their work, and they only accept cash so I can't build my credit by putting it on a credit card.

but ohhh well, now i'm breakdancing on hardwood floors and my doggy has a fenced yard = )

[Nerdsrock22]

what? There is nothing wrong with undercutting the competition...offering a great deal because they circumventing those pesky tax laws, and having absolutely no medical because all of them are uninsured along with their work, and they only accept cash so I can't build my credit by putting it on a credit card.


I'll agree with this. I'm down with any form of tax circumvention.

[StreetHazard]

I'll agree with this. I'm down with any form of tax circumvention.

Next on the list is marble countertops and a tiled kitchen floor

it's gunna be big baller son! "baller on a budget" these fuggers are cheap...

[Nerdsrock22]

Next on the list is marble countertops and a tiled kitchen floor

it's gunna be big baller son!

I know of a fellow who does marble work. He is an immigrant but is more of the legal variety.

But he is on IA. Which counts for something I'm sure.

[bu villain]

I don't think that trying to enforce immigration law is the problem. The problem is how it's done. What does it mean to be under suspicion of being illegal? It's too vague and many people worry that it will translate into: if you look hispanic or don't speak english well enough, you will be detained longer than an "American" looking person so they can verify you are here legally

Simply put, this means there is a great potential for US Citizens and Legal Aliens to be treated differently based on their heritage/looks. Many people feel that is unfair. If the law required all people to be checked it would be fair but that's not how the law is written.

[Kevs290]

Humans have rights. Dogs don't. (Theoretically speaking).


We have rights only because we say we do. Why don't dogs get rights? What makes us any more special than them? And why when one human kills another its called murder but when animals in the wild kill each other it's just considered nature.

P.S. I'm only posting this because I feel like talking philosophy, if this is unwarranted please tell me to GTFO. :)

[StreetHazard]

I know of a fellow who does marble work. He is an immigrant but is more of the legal variety.

But he is on IA. Which counts for something I'm sure.

I would actually prefer it if they are illegal, for some reason I feel that they put more....whats the word, "desperation" or "desire" into their work because they probably won't make rent or feed their babies without it.

I feel like I can trust them more to do quality work as well because I can be all like "hey fuckers! chip chop chip!...I got INS on the phone!" I like that, makes me feel more empowered with my money.

pronto!...el est gunna get arresto compadre, comprendo?

[Nerdsrock22]

We have rights only because we say we do. Why don't dogs get rights? What makes us any more special than them? And why when one human kills another its called murder but when animals in the wild kill each other it's just considered nature.

P.S. I'm only posting this because I feel like talking philosophy, if this is unwarranted please tell me to GTFO. :)

Because dogs cannot talk and eat their own feces. Furthermore, if they aren't fed by a human they would die.

/philosophy.

You must be a liberal arts major.

[StreetHazard]

there are animal cruelty rights laws...dogs do have a certain level of rights.

I know you can't fuck them, not that I have tried or really thought about it much short of a jar of peanut butter and a sidelong glance at my ball sack....

[BanginJimmy]

I shall interject with some reasonable thoughts, expressed in real terms not politically correct ones, as its obvious that pretty much everyone that commented here hasnt even looked at the law.


1. Profiling works. I dont care if it isnt politically correct to admit it, but EVERYONE does it. If you are looking for a terrorist, 99.99% of the time, it isnt going to be the balding white guy driving around with his family, its going to be the young middle eastern walking around alone. If you are looking for illegals on the US-Mexico border, I would say to start with the hispanics that dont speak english. Its just common sense, nothing sinister.

2. Any kind of immigration reform is absolutely useless until the border is locked down. Reagan proved that in the 80's with his amnesty.

3. If "hispanic leaders" dont like this kind of law, too bad. If they really wanted to lead, they could lead the fight against illegals, not help them commit their crimes. Turn in Coyotes to ICE. Help ICE identify and close down smuggling routes for people and drugs. These things would go a hell of a lot further to helping out the population they are claiming to lead than actively encouraging people to become criminals.

4. A law is a law. Coming into this country illegally is a violation of the law. It really is that easy. There is no valid excuse for it, and IMO it should be treated like any other law. If someone is renting a house to an illegal, charge them with conspiracy and seize their assets. Someone wants to give them a job? Thats easy too, revoke their business license and change them back taxes along with fines and interest. In the end, make life here for hard for them, they head back to where they came from.

[silversol]

I shall interject with some reasonable thoughts, expressed in real terms not politically correct ones, as its obvious that pretty much everyone that commented here hasnt even looked at the law.


1. Profiling works. I dont care if it isnt politically correct to admit it, but EVERYONE does it. If you are looking for a terrorist, 99.99% of the time, it isnt going to be the balding white guy driving around with his family, its going to be the young middle eastern walking around alone. If you are looking for illegals on the US-Mexico border, I would say to start with the hispanics that dont speak english. Its just common sense, nothing sinister.

2. Any kind of immigration reform is absolutely useless until the border is locked down. Reagan proved that in the 80's with his amnesty.

3. If "hispanic leaders" dont like this kind of law, too bad. If they really wanted to lead, they could lead the fight against illegals, not help them commit their crimes. Turn in Coyotes to ICE. Help ICE identify and close down smuggling routes for people and drugs. These things would go a hell of a lot further to helping out the population they are claiming to lead than actively encouraging people to become criminals.

4. A law is a law. Coming into this country illegally is a violation of the law. It really is that easy. There is no valid excuse for it, and IMO it should be treated like any other law. If someone is renting a house to an illegal, charge them with conspiracy and seize their assets. Someone wants to give them a job? Thats easy too, revoke their business license and change them back taxes along with fines and interest. In the end, make life here for hard for them, they head back to where they came from.


agreed!

[Kevs290]

Because dogs cannot talk and eat their own feces. Furthermore, if they aren't fed by a human they would die.

/philosophy.

You must be a liberal arts major.

Business major.

If dogs would die without humans feeding them, then how do you explain wolves? I mean, obviously your pet dog would die, but that's because his whole life he has only known 1 world.. One where you feed him his food daily lol

[gerardojdm]

ok people, lets say slaves instead of dog... they were treat like shit so whats the difference?? years ago there was a white and colored difference.

[Browning151]

I shall interject with some reasonable thoughts, expressed in real terms not politically correct ones, as its obvious that pretty much everyone that commented here hasnt even looked at the law.


1. Profiling works. I dont care if it isnt politically correct to admit it, but EVERYONE does it. If you are looking for a terrorist, 99.99% of the time, it isnt going to be the balding white guy driving around with his family, its going to be the young middle eastern walking around alone. If you are looking for illegals on the US-Mexico border, I would say to start with the hispanics that dont speak english. Its just common sense, nothing sinister.

2. Any kind of immigration reform is absolutely useless until the border is locked down. Reagan proved that in the 80's with his amnesty.

3. If "hispanic leaders" dont like this kind of law, too bad. If they really wanted to lead, they could lead the fight against illegals, not help them commit their crimes. Turn in Coyotes to ICE. Help ICE identify and close down smuggling routes for people and drugs. These things would go a hell of a lot further to helping out the population they are claiming to lead than actively encouraging people to become criminals.

4. A law is a law. Coming into this country illegally is a violation of the law. It really is that easy. There is no valid excuse for it, and IMO it should be treated like any other law. If someone is renting a house to an illegal, charge them with conspiracy and seize their assets. Someone wants to give them a job? Thats easy too, revoke their business license and change them back taxes along with fines and interest. In the end, make life here for hard for them, they head back to where they came from.

Agreed as well. Political correctness is getting out of control. Change race/ethnicity to age, if you knew that people between the age of 20-25 were resposible for numerous crimes that you were trying to prevent, would you stop people who were obviously 40-50-60 years old and question them? No, absolutely not because you know what your target group is, but if someone screamed age discrimination and profiling we would have to question everyone, it's a waste of time and resources. If you know what group of people are commiting the majority of a certain crime, why not single out that group? Like banginjimmy said, if the hispanic leaders wanted to help their own community they would advocate coming to the US legally, they would work to make the citizenship process more "user friendly" and encourage people to help crack down on human/drug trafficers, that would do much more to promote their agenda and change the image of their movement than encouraging people to break the law.

[Nerdsrock22]

ok people, lets say slaves instead of dog... they were treat like shit so whats the difference?? years ago there was a white and colored difference.

Human chattel slavery is completely different than illegal immigration. In case you forgot, they were either captured or bought and shipped here in prison ships; they didn't hop the border and start picking cotton for room and board.

[Total_Blender]

Weren't you all the ones who were saying it was wrong when the Dept. of Homeland security posted a bulletin that "profiled" militia members and possible domestic terrorists? I remember about a year ago you guys were all bitching about this:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

226362

Because you were all afraid that if one had checked out Atlas Shrugged from a library or had a Ron Paul bumper sticker they'd be sent to a FEMA camp. Or some shit. I guess what I'm getting at is that most of you who support profiling are OK with it unless it happens to you.

[Vteckidd]

Weren't you all the ones who were saying it was wrong when the Dept. of Homeland security posted a bulletin that "profiled" militia members and possible domestic terrorists? I remember about a year ago you guys were all bitching about this:

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

226362

Because you were all afraid that if one had checked out Atlas Shrugged from a library or had a Ron Paul bumper sticker they'd be sent to a FEMA camp. Or some shit. I guess what I'm getting at is that most of you who support profiling are OK with it unless it happens to you.

Ok lets cut all the bullshit out of this argument and get to the MEAT of the matter. YOu raise an interesting point but lets come back to that.

FACTS:
This bill SPECIFICALLY states that NO RACIAL PROFILING IS ALLOWED

THe only way the police can ask someone to prove citizenship is if they are stopped COMMITTING ANOTHER CRIME. THEY CANNOT WALK UP TO RANDOM PEOPLE AND SAY "SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS".

Obama made a remark yesterday about how if a family went to an ice cream store and forgot their papers they could be harrassed which i thought was not only ignorant, but totally misinformed. In his scenario the family would have to be stopped for robbing the ice cream store before they could be asked for papers. THEY MUST COMMIT ANOTHER CRIME OR GRIEVANCE FIRST.

Now, im sure the argument is going to be that lawmen will look for any reason to pull a "latino" over or something else just to ask his resident status. Well besides being completely unknown and its all speculation, what if he did? If you drive an import with wheels and exhaust i have been "profiled" before, having a cop tail me all the way from Turner field to PeachTree city WAITING for me to do something wrong so he could pull me over. Im sure it happens ALL THE TIME with all races, creeds, social groups, etc. Bottom line is if you are legal, you dont have ANYTHING to worry about.

So you might have to answer an extra question as a latino in Arizona if you get stopped in your work truck. So the fuck what? They arent going to torture you. You either prove you are a citizen or you arent. Then the argument is HOW DARE WE QUESTION LATINOS TO FIND OUT IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL THATS SO WRONG.

WHAT FUCKING COUNTRY DO YOU LIVE IN? Im sorry folks but the statistics DO NOT LIE. 12-20 MILLION people in the USA are here ILLEGALLY. 95% of them are latino. So im sorry its only COMMON FUCKING SENSE that LAtinos will be the most affected by this, as they are the habitual law breakers.

Again if you are legal you flash a green card and go on your way. If you arent, well you are caught, SAME AS ANY OTHER CRIME.

The difference in your argument BLender is those are American CITIZENS being targeted as Terrorist groups for nothing other than opposing the current administration. Now having said that, if they arent doing anything wrong they have nothing to worry about same as above. The govt KNOWS who is in these "militias" they know their immigration status. The purpose for this law is to root out the UNKNOWN, the people we DONT KNOW who are here.

I cant see how anyone can sympathize with not doing ANYTHING at all, or simply just making everyone legal. SO what they broke the law, who cares, lets just give them what they want.

Why should we shoulder the burden and responsibility for MEXICO and other latino countries? You realize what happens if you get caught in Mexico illegally right?

IMO there is an easy way to compromise this

Option 1
5 year Work Visa (if you work for 5 years, dont get convicted of a felony, pay your taxes, you get USA citizenship status) I think there should be a rule that any child born BEFORE citizenship status is not considered a citizen. They need to stop having 12 babies over here that mooch of our healthcare and other social programs.

Option 2
5 Years of military service (starship troopers style) gets you Citizenship.

Let them EARN IT, not just come here and take it. There are TONS of people that try to do it LEGALLY and now we are basically telling those people that they lose out because they didnt hop a border and claim racism.

This country is delusional

[ISAtlanta300]

yes but you have to think that the people who are trying to become citizens here were illigal too at one point of time.

Entirely false. They could have become residents first via many ways, i.e. marriage, work / sponsorship, family / sponsorship etc.

[ISAtlanta300]

I don't think that trying to enforce immigration law is the problem. The problem is how it's done. What does it mean to be under suspicion of being illegal? It's too vague and many people worry that it will translate into: if you look hispanic or don't speak english well enough, you will be detained longer than an "American" looking person so they can verify you are here legally

Simply put, this means there is a great potential for US Citizens and Legal Aliens to be treated differently based on their heritage/looks. Many people feel that is unfair. If the law required all people to be checked it would be fair but that's not how the law is written.

^^^^^ THIS, is what I was talking about. Nail, meet hammer. Right on the head. +reps for you.

[ISAtlanta300]

We have rights only because we say we do. Why don't dogs get rights? What makes us any more special than them? And why when one human kills another its called murder but when animals in the wild kill each other it's just considered nature.

P.S. I'm only posting this because I feel like talking philosophy, if this is unwarranted please tell me to GTFO. :)


'Cause we are the dominant species. And I must retract. Dogs do have rights. Animal rights. But not to the level of humans. Our rights go above that of the dog.

And the killing is that Dogs don't have to abide by 'laws'. In that sense, they have more freedom than us.

[ISAtlanta300]

"THe only way the police can ask someone to prove citizenship is if they are stopped COMMITTING ANOTHER CRIME. THEY CANNOT WALK UP TO RANDOM PEOPLE AND SAY "SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS".

If this is indeed the case, why stop only at Hispanics? I would implement it across the board. Furthermore, it should have been a standard procedure long ago.

[Total_Blender]

So people like Timmy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Eric Robert Rudolph, David Koresh, Jeffery Lundgren (google that sick bastard), the killers of Dr. George Tiller, the Hutaree Militia, etc etc are all just guilty of nothing other than opposing the administration? They don't exhibit any patterns in the ways that their extremist beliefs and recruiting processes lead to acts of violence, terrorism, and murder?

[Vteckidd]

Chance are thEy will question other nationalities but let's not kid ourselves the main cause of illegal immigration is Latinos.

[Vteckidd]

So people like Timmy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Eric Robert Rudolph, David Koresh, Jeffery Lundgren (google that sick bastard), the killers of Dr. George Tiller, the Hutaree Militia, etc etc are all just guilty of nothing other than opposing the administration? They don't exhibit any patterns in the ways that their extremist beliefs and recruiting processes lead to acts of violence, terrorism, and murder?

missed the point again.

The people that were mad about being "profiled" obviously we're doing anything wrong. I actually have no problem with homeland watching militia groups closely if they have good cause.

[bu villain]

Is there anyone here who thinks racial profiling is wrong but supports this bill?

[Vteckidd]

Racial profiling is wrong but you have to also understand where profiling comes from.

Isnt it naive to just act like the majority of illegals In this country aren't Latino? I mean who are we kidding.

How come when you drive down into a poor black neighborhood you assume the kid on te corner with his pants around his ankles and a doo rag is selling drugs or prob not interested in going to college? Is that profiling?

What about poor white trailer parks ? Is it wrong everytme I drive by one I assume there's at least one meth lab in there?

Jersey shore made fun of guidos . Isn't that a form of racial profiling to see q guy like pauly d an assume he's an Italian American douche?

I mean it happens all the time

[BanginJimmy]

Is there anyone here who thinks racial profiling is wrong but supports this bill?

How about if you dont believe profiling is wrong in ANY way? ALL forms of profiling work to narrow a suspect pool. If the purpose of a law is to help punish, not stop, illegals along the US-Mexico border I really dont see the point is checking the immigration status of the white or black guy. The same goes for looking for asian illegals along the US-Canada border, the whites and blacks arent really going to fit that scenario.

To bring this back to reality, I do believe that using profiling as your ONLY method to narrow down the suspect pools is not only wrong, but a complete waste of resources and time. In this case, if the person the cop talks to speaks fluent english, has a valid license, and doesnt seem at all nervous, I see no reason for him to do anything more than he would be in any other case.

Will this law be abused? Yes, it will by some, just like ANY other law of this type. Should this vast minority prevent AZ or other states from writing and enforcing these types of laws? Never. For the last 40+ years the federal govt has made nothing more than a couple token attempts at securing the border. Until there is a serious effort made to close it, no law by any state or the fed govt will do anything.

[ash7]

,,,Option 2
5 Years of military service (starship troopers style) gets you Citizenship.

statements like this are definitely what's up.

:goodjob:

I applaud Arizona for passing this bill, applaud Texas for saying "we want that too," and can't wait for other states to follow.

-jonathan

[BanginJimmy]

So people like Timmy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Eric Robert Rudolph, David Koresh, Jeffery Lundgren (google that sick bastard), the killers of Dr. George Tiller, the Hutaree Militia, etc etc are all just guilty of nothing other than opposing the administration? They don't exhibit any patterns in the ways that their extremist beliefs and recruiting processes lead to acts of violence, terrorism, and murder?


You forgot the Weather Underground, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and the environmental movement in your list. All of these have displayed as many or more acts of terrorism in this country than any militia, yet none of these groups have been singled out and villified like military vets have.

[Vteckidd]

You forgot the Weather Underground, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and the environmental movement in your list. All of these have displayed as many or more acts of terrorism in this country than any militia, yet none of these groups have been singled out and villified like military vets have.:goodjob:

[onebadgt]

i support this 100% i do not support unjustified racial profiling but thats why there also passing another zero tolerance profiling law. i have the upmost respect for anone who comes to this country and betters there life, but not for the ones who do it illegally. the rest of us suffer from that. there are over 450,000 illegal immigrants in arizona alone. thats a ton of jobs taken, the unemployed rate would be cut in half if legal citizens had the millions of jobs that illegals now have. again i am all for legitimate new citzens making there life better, we have many hispanic men that work with us, and they are the best workers we have ever had, but they also are legal, pay taxes, and dont hafta hide.

[BB6dohcvtec]

Fact is this law won't take effect for a couple of months. By then it will be ruled unconstitutional and never see the light of day (book it). It's causing way too many problems.

[Total_Blender]

You forgot the Weather Underground, Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and the environmental movement in your list. All of these have displayed as many or more acts of terrorism in this country than any militia, yet none of these groups have been singled out and villified like military vets have.

You assume none of the left wing groups have former vets. Many of the Black Panthers etc. were vets from Vietnam.

Also, your point about "not checking the black guy or the white guy," you should know that not all "Latinos" are brown (aka Mestizos). There are lots of Blacks in Cuba, also Panama and Brazil. And there are more European looking people in certain places where the colonial expats still have large communities like Argentina and Venezuela. Also, another big part of border security is drugs and I think all races are involved in the drug trade, especially Whites.

[BanginJimmy]

You assume none of the left wing groups have former vets. Many of the Black Panthers etc. were vets from Vietnam.

Also, your point about "not checking the black guy or the white guy," you should know that not all "Latinos" are brown (aka Mestizos). There are lots of Blacks in Cuba, also Panama and Brazil. And there are more European looking people in certain places where the colonial expats still have large communities like Argentina and Venezuela. Also, another big part of border security is drugs and I think all races are involved in the drug trade, especially Whites.


I agree with you completely, but 90%+ of those that are coming over here illegally are latino and we both know it. As far as the drug trade goes, we also agree. Before we do any kind of immigration reform, read amnesty, the border has to be locked down. We already have a large standing army plus 10's of thousands more in the national guard. It would be a minimum cost to use those units to shut down the border. It would also be good training time for those units. All services fly helicopters that can carry the equipment to look down at the desert to locate people that are sneaking in. Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force all fly C-130's and/or P-3's also. It would not take many of them to watch all 2k miles of the border from 40k feet.

[tony]

yes but you have to think that the people who are trying to become citizens here were illigal too at one point of time.

i also think it is a waste of money to put up all this security and sending poeple back to other countries when the truth is that they will prob be back over in a few weeks. that money could go towards something else

It's good to know someone gets it.

[Total_Blender]

You all say that we suffer from illegal immigration, but really the use of illegal labor is keeping costs down. Imagine the added expense of building houses or running restaurants if all of a sudden the managers are forced to hire citizens and pay them a respectable wage. So it works both ways.

Also, any amount of added security will not stop people from getting in. As long as there are unscrupulous employers willing to hire illegals, they are going to keep coming, they will just find more creative ways of getting in. In addition to adding security at the border, we should also bust the people who hire illegals. When these people can operate in broad daylight recruiting illegal workers at the Home Depots, something is severely fucked.

[tony]

You all say that we suffer from illegal immigration, but really the use of illegal labor is keeping costs down. Imagine the added expense of building houses or running restaurants if all of a sudden the managers are forced to hire citizens and pay them a respectable wage. So it works both ways.

Also, any amount of added security will not stop people from getting in. As long as there are unscrupulous employers willing to hire illegals, they are going to keep coming, they will just find more creative ways of getting in. In addition to adding security at the border, we should also bust the people who hire illegals. When these people can operate in broad daylight recruiting illegal workers at the Home Depots, something is severely fucked.

Not to be outright disrespectful toward Conservatives (Or Neo Conservatives? anyway..) but to give off the impression like they are the party of common sense they sure are fucking up the analysis of immigration reform. Immigration is an economic problem, not a national security problem. You do not keep illegal immigrants out by spending endless amounts of money on a wall or "locking down" borders, you remove the incentive for illegal immigrants to come here, and their reasons are purely economic. Deal with the employers who are hiring them and remove the cushion that is the draw to the U.S for non citizens. It also requires a much larger effort in dealing with the countries that supply the bulk of illegal immigrants.

Asking for papers isn't going to do much. Send em back and they'll come back with a greater knowledge of how to get around the system. What are we going to do, shut down every state and build walls at every state line? Common sense..

[Vteckidd]

Not to be outright disrespectful toward Conservatives (Or Neo Conservatives? anyway..) but to give off the impression like they are the party of common sense they sure are fucking up the analysis of immigration reform. Immigration is an economic problem, not a national security problem. You do not keep illegal immigrants out by spending endless amounts of money on a wall or "locking down" borders, you remove the incentive for illegal immigrants to come here, and their reasons are purely economic. Deal with the employers who are hiring them and remove the cushion that is the draw to the U.S for non citizens. It also requires a much larger effort in dealing with the countries that supply the bulk of illegal immigrants.

Asking for papers isn't going to do much. Send em back and they'll come back with a greater knowledge of how to get around the system. What are we going to do, shut down every state and build walls at every state line? Common sense..

you do make excellent points and i agree 100%. The problem IMO is national security though i mean i cant believe Al Qaeda hasnt figured out the only thing they have to do is jump the mexican border to get in. Doesnt that play some factor in all this too?

Imagine if 12 million jobs were available because the illegals were deported tomorrow? wonder what that would do to the unemployment rate. But Blender is right it would drive the costs of the product/service the illegal was doing to go up. Would that really help anything? Or would it shift a market back to where it is supposed to be?

I could go into pages of economics debates about this but wont for fear of boring others.

You all make great points, but IMO at the hearts of the matter they came in the country ILLEGALLY , period. This is a way to make Arizona FORCE the feds to do SOMETHING about the border they are neglecting. nothing more and nothing less.

RACE has NOTHING to do with this and i think the only people making it racial are democrats trying to stir up their base (left wing dems of course)

[tony]

National Security exploits near the border are a result of poor immigration policy imho. I agree with Jimmy that regardless of how wrong it is, profiling works and it is a much needed evil so with this Arizona bill, I do not feel I have a leg to stand on when I want to judge. Obviously they have a major problem in that state with migrants and they want to deal with it. No the states are not sovereign but not everyone is dealing with the constraints of illegal immigration like Arizona is so if the citizens overwhelming feel they have more to gain by enforcing the law, so be it.

[Total_Blender]

. I agree with Jimmy that regardless of how wrong it is, profiling works and it is a much needed evil .

Legal Latino immigrants are 30% of Arizona's population. I really don't see them doing much good with profiling. Theres so much Mexican culture and influence there that profiling Latinos is going to be useless just because their culture is just so ubiquitous.

And as far as Al Qaeda not coming in through the Mexican border, first they would have to get in to Mexico, and I don't think Mexico wants them any more than we do. :goodjob:

[BanginJimmy]

Legal Latino immigrants are 30% of Arizona's population. I really don't see them doing much good with profiling. Theres so much Mexican culture and influence there that profiling Latinos is going to be useless just because their culture is just so ubiquitous.


And this is exactly why a profile, whether it be racial, ethnic, sex, religious, or anyting else, is useless if used as the only method of narrowing down a suspect pool. It is simply a starting point.

For example:

Cop stops a truck with 5 people in the bed and 3 in the cab for an illegal U turn at 2am. When he gets to the the driver's window and asks for a license, the driver doesnt speak a word of english, is acting very nervous, and claims to have forgotten his drivers license at home. Cop is a bit suspicious at this point and asks where he is going with 7 other people at that time of day. Driver gives a crazy answer and says he is doing some work on the house.

Now, would you think that this driver, and the people with him, are legal US Citizens going to work on a house at 2am, or would you suspect they are illegal and pursue it?

[Total_Blender]

1,) The people in your example have committed 2 crimes, an illegal U-turn as well as having people riding in the back of a truck. So every person in that scenario has a probable cause for being stopped and having to provide ID that is something other than "driving while Latino".

2.) You are wrong when you say this law will be enacted only if the people are under suspicion for other crimes or offenese:

E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON
38 IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED
39 ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

More provisions I have problems with:

The state telling citizens who is guilty of tresspassing on their land:

42 A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF
43 TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH:
44 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE.

When people emigrate with no money, can you really expect them to pay fines? This seems like it will just increase the burden on already overcrowded courts and jails:

11 D. IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER PENALTY PRESCRIBED BY LAW, THE COURT SHALL
12 ORDER THE PERSON TO PAY JAIL COSTS AND AN ADDITIONAL ASSESSMENT IN THE
13 FOLLOWING AMOUNTS:
14 1. AT LEAST FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR A FIRST VIOLATION.
15 2. TWICE THE AMOUNT SPECIFIED IN PARAGRAPH 1 OF THIS SUBSECTION IF THE
16 PERSON WAS PREVIOUSLY SUBJECT TO AN ASSESSMENT PURSUANT TO THIS SUBSECTION.

There are also provisions I DO like, such as requiring employers to keep better records of their employees' immigration statuses, and they are cracking down on people caught driving without car insurance.

But overall I think SB1070 is a turd. :2cents:

[Elbow]

If you come here illegally and work, take jobs, benefits, etc. You deserve to be charged with crimes and sent back where you came from.

[Total_Blender]

If you come here illegally and work, take jobs, benefits, etc. You deserve to be charged with crimes and sent back where you came from.

And then they will just come back in a month. As long as conditions remain shitty in Mexico, Central America, and certain islands in the Caribbean, people will continue to emigrate by any means necessary.

[Elbow]

And then they will just come back in a month. As long as conditions remain shitty in Mexico, Central America, and certain islands in the Caribbean, people will continue to emigrate by any means necessary.

Fine lock them up in a camp.

[Total_Blender]

Fine lock them up in a camp.

You mean a FEMA camp? Can we throw the teabaggers in there too?

[BanginJimmy]

You mean a FEMA camp? Can we throw the teabaggers in there too?

Right next to the Obama nut huggers, tree huggers, and anyone that ever stepped foot on the Berkley campus or in an ACLU office.

[BanginJimmy]

And then they will just come back in a month. As long as conditions remain shitty in Mexico, Central America, and certain islands in the Caribbean, people will continue to emigrate by any means necessary.

In this case, I propose the US invade and take over Central and South America. This way they will all already be citizens so we wont have to worry about it.

[Total_Blender]

Invading places usually doesn't work out that well for us. We still have about a trillion in debt from that last fiasco.

http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/mission_accomplished.jpg

[BanginJimmy]

Invading places usually doesn't work out that well for us. We still have about a trillion in debt from that last fiasco.

http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/mission_accomplished.jpg

If you just want to talk about it from a debt standpoint then I guess we need to quit with all the entitlement programs also, they account for FAR more than 1T worth of debt. Hell, just the medical takeover will cost more than Iraq and Asscrackistan combined within 5 years from now.


Since you brought up Iraq, I also say we invade Iran. Their govt has committed countless verifiable acts of war against the US since 2003.

[sti_cham]

Fine lock them up in a camp.

x2
We need to open our eyes. There are over 2 million illegal immigrants bedding down in this state tonight! This state spent $3 billion last year, on services for those people who have no right to be here!$3 billion! $400 million just to lock up a bunch of illegal immigrant criminals, who only got into this country because the fuckin' INS decided, "It's not worth the effort to screen for convicted felons!" Who gives a shit? Our government doesn't give a shit! Our border policy's a joke! So, is anybody surprised that south of the border, they're laughing at us? Laughing at our laws? Every night, thousands of these parasites stream across the border like some fucking pinata exploded. Don't laugh! There's nothin' funny goin' on here! This is about your life and mine; it's about decent, hard working Americans falling through the cracks and getting the shaft because their government cares more about the constitutional rights of a bunch of people who aren't even citizens of this country! On the Statue of Liberty it says "give me your tired your hungry, your poor..." well it's Americans who are tired and hungry and poor, and I say until you take care of that, close the fucking book! 'Cause we're losing, we're losing our right to pursue our destiny, we're losing our freedom, so that a bunch of fucking foreigners can come in here and exploit our country! And this isn't something that's going on far away, this isn't something that's happening places we cant do anything about it, it's happening right here, right in our neighborhood

[bodhi]

x2
We need to open our eyes. There are over 2 million illegal immigrants bedding down in this state tonight! This state spent $3 billion last year, on services for those people who have no right to be here!$3 billion! $400 million just to lock up a bunch of illegal immigrant criminals, who only got into this country because the fuckin' INS decided, "It's not worth the effort to screen for convicted felons!" Who gives a shit? Our government doesn't give a shit! Our border policy's a joke! So, is anybody surprised that south of the border, they're laughing at us? Laughing at our laws? Every night, thousands of these parasites stream across the border like some fucking pinata exploded. Don't laugh! There's nothin' funny goin' on here! This is about your life and mine; it's about decent, hard working Americans falling through the cracks and getting the shaft because their government cares more about the constitutional rights of a bunch of people who aren't even citizens of this country! On the Statue of Liberty it says "give me your tired your hungry, your poor..." well it's Americans who are tired and hungry and poor, and I say until you take care of that, close the fucking book! 'Cause we're losing, we're losing our right to pursue our destiny, we're losing our freedom, so that a bunch of fucking foreigners can come in here and exploit our country! And this isn't something that's going on far away, this isn't something that's happening places we cant do anything about it, it's happening right here, right in our neighborhood


the arizona law is unconstitutional....


art 1, section 8 of the constitution gives congress the express power to decide naturalization issues
since it's an explicit power, the states have no authority, even under the 9th and 10th amendments

so keep on cryin kid


its not gonna do a goddamn thing...you want things to change? sit the fuck down and wait for it - nothing is going to happen anytime soon...
"omg illegal aliens are fuckin up the country...what are we gonna doo??????????? its so messed up n'junk"


grow up...there are those illegal fucks who should go back to their country, and there are those who are probably a more productive human-being than you are.
cobb, fulton, and gwinnett county are already doing what arizona is doing


and all theyre doing is wasting tax money on a stupid issue

last year gwinnett spent over $2 million dollars IN ONE MONTH - and only deported 8 or 900 illegal mexicans

how fuckin stupid does that sound to you?


oh and you think ppl south of the border are laughing at THE UNITED FUCKIN STATES OF AMERICA??? THE LAND OF FREEDOM.... yeah they are
do we send more military personal down there? are they gonna stop the evil aliens from coming over to the UNITED STATES? nah... they aint haha i just think it's funny that so many people are going around saying, "oh we gotta get the military down there, we gotta put the military on the border, to close the border, to stop the drugs and border jumpers...."


the U.S. army has been letting these drug cartel guys smuggle drugs over the border ON MILITARY PLANES -- their favorite is the C-130


there was a marine colonel or something in that big-ass base in texas that i can't remember the name cause im a little high (El Toro or something....?)
who found out about this, tried to blow the whistle, but he ended up blowing into the ears of somebody in on it, and they fuckin' killed his ass and then covered it up.....


so the idea that the military is gonna stop the drug trade, or anything else on the border is just a monument to stupidity....
its on the same order as building the Great Wall of China to keep out the Mongols

(for those who don't know mongolian history: the chinese spent hundreds of years building a 4,000 mile wall to keep the mongols out. so the mongols dried the tears of laughter from their eyes and LITERALLY WENT AROUND THE FUCKIN' THING)

[NosVette]

I would not worry about illegals invading the US..Have any of you guys been from TX to Cali through out that whole path it truly is Mexico you see the sign Spanish letters on top and the English letters below it.I see what people are talking about people trying to flee from a wreck if thats the case then let them suffer the consequences.On the other hand 85 % of illegals do the jobs most Americans wont and cant do and they do it for minimum wage.Do you think you can work from 5am to sunset in the brutal sun with no benefits for 300 bucks a week??These people do it for their family's thats the only reason they come over to the states(on most cases).The people you see crossing over are very poor people the dark skined people looking like native americans and the rich people in mexico are the white people(In reality their still Mexicans).Have you ever seen a mexican tv news report or sopoper how ever you spell it.All you see is white looking mexicans because they favor the Spain complexion.Even though mexico won their freedom "Cinco de Mayo"The families with Spanish backgrounds still remained dominant.Just a little something thought you would like to know next time you see a mexican in the street.

[big mac]

I would not worry about illegals invading the US..Have any of you guys been from TX to Cali through out that whole path it truly is Mexico you see the sign Spanish letters on top and the English letters below it.I see what people are talking about people trying to flee from a wreck if thats the case then let them suffer the consequences.On the other hand 85 % of illegals do the jobs most Americans wont and cant do and they do it for minimum wage.Do you think you can work from 5am to sunset in the brutal sun with no benefits for 300 bucks a week??These people do it for their family's thats the only reason they come over to the states(on most cases).The people you see crossing over are very poor people the dark skined people looking like native americans and the rich people in mexico are the white people(In reality their still Mexicans).Have you ever seen a mexican tv news report or sopoper how ever you spell it.All you see is white looking mexicans because they favor the Spain complexion.Even though mexico won their freedom "Cinco de Mayo"The families with Spanish backgrounds still remained dominant.Just a little something thought you would like to know next time you see a mexican in the street.


reps fpr you man bc that is true youll rarely see a white guy(not trying to be racist) cutting lawns for min. wage in 100 degree weather from 6 am till sunset. ever!

btw independece day is september 16. cinco de mayo is when mexico defeated france in a war

[BanginJimmy]

.On the other hand 85 % of illegals do the jobs most Americans wont and cant do and they do it for minimum wage.Do you think you can work from 5am to sunset in the brutal sun with no benefits for 300 bucks a week??These people do it for their family's thats the only reason they come over to the states(on most cases).

Have you ever thought that maybe those illegals are the ones driving down the wages for those jobs? Just like they are for just about every construction job in the country.





The people you see crossing over are very poor people the dark skined people looking like native americans and the rich people in mexico are the white people(In reality their still Mexicans).Have you ever seen a mexican tv news report or sopoper how ever you spell it.All you see is white looking mexicans because they favor the Spain complexion.Even though mexico won their freedom "Cinco de Mayo"The families with Spanish backgrounds still remained dominant.Just a little something thought you would like to know next time you see a mexican in the street.

I honestly could not care less what happens in Mexico, just keep it there.

[BanginJimmy]

the arizona law is unconstitutional....


art 1, section 8 of the constitution gives congress the express power to decide naturalization issues
since it's an explicit power, the states have no authority, even under the 9th and 10th amendments

The AZ law doesnt decide immigration or naturalization issues, it simply forced state agencies to actually enforce the federal law. Try reading the law and see if you can wrap your very simple mind around that simple point.




its not gonna do a goddamn thing...you want things to change? sit the fuck down and wait for it - nothing is going to happen anytime soon...
"omg illegal aliens are fuckin up the country...what are we gonna doo??????????? its so messed up n'junk"


grow up...there are those illegal fucks who should go back to their country, and there are those who are probably a more productive human-being than you are.
cobb, fulton, and gwinnett county are already doing what arizona is doing


and all theyre doing is wasting tax money on a stupid issue

I actually agree with you to a point. Until the border is closed, enforcement is a waste of money.




oh and you think ppl south of the border are laughing at THE UNITED FUCKIN STATES OF AMERICA??? THE LAND OF FREEDOM.... yeah they are
do we send more military personal down there? are they gonna stop the evil aliens from coming over to the UNITED STATES? nah... they aint haha i just think it's funny that so many people are going around saying, "oh we gotta get the military down there, we gotta put the military on the border, to close the border, to stop the drugs and border jumpers...."


the U.S. army has been letting these drug cartel guys smuggle drugs over the border ON MILITARY PLANES -- their favorite is the C-130


there was a marine colonel or something in that big-ass base in texas that i can't remember the name cause im a little high (El Toro or something....?)
who found out about this, tried to blow the whistle, but he ended up blowing into the ears of somebody in on it, and they fuckin' killed his ass and then covered it up.....

Just WOW.

BTW, El Toro was a small Marine air station located in Orange County Cali. There were no C-130's there, just helicopters.

You also might want to know that the Army doesnt own any C-130s. Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force only.

Just for shits and giggles, why dont you post up a reputable source for this though, I need a good laugh.

[Vteckidd]

On the other hand 85 % of illegals do the jobs most Americans wont and cant do and they do it for minimum wage.Do you think you can work from 5am to sunset in the brutal sun with no benefits for 300 bucks a week??These people do it for their family's thats the only reason they come over to the states(on most cases)

with that rationale then i gues we should start opening sweat shops right? why not, its cheap labor!

Its a double edged sword. I tend to agree with you that the "mexicans" are bringing prices down because they have something the american worker lost a long time ago and thats HARD WORK ETHIC. Our grandparents and parents had it, but not our generation. Mexican will work his ASS OFF to be paid a decent wage.

Americans are too entitled and too good to do that anymore.

On one hand, i see a benefit as its simply competition and its good for the market. Afterall most of the illegals are bonded or insured so they still have to be able to convince someone its a quality job.

On the other hand if we kick all illegals out, are we saying that the cost of THE JOBS THEY WERE DOING are going to rise? itsnt that the definition of inflation?

What would happen if overnight the cost of all flatscreen TVs increased 100%, 200%,300%? What about milk?

[sti_cham]

the arizona law is unconstitutional....


art 1, section 8 of the constitution gives congress the express power to decide naturalization issues
since it's an explicit power, the states have no authority, even under the 9th and 10th amendments

so keep on cryin kid


its not gonna do a goddamn thing...you want things to change? sit the fuck down and wait for it - nothing is going to happen anytime soon...
"omg illegal aliens are fuckin up the country...what are we gonna doo??????????? its so messed up n'junk"


grow up...there are those illegal fucks who should go back to their country, and there are those who are probably a more productive human-being than you are.
cobb, fulton, and gwinnett county are already doing what arizona is doing


and all theyre doing is wasting tax money on a stupid issue

last year gwinnett spent over $2 million dollars IN ONE MONTH - and only deported 8 or 900 illegal mexicans

how fuckin stupid does that sound to you?


oh and you think ppl south of the border are laughing at THE UNITED FUCKIN STATES OF AMERICA??? THE LAND OF FREEDOM.... yeah they are
do we send more military personal down there? are they gonna stop the evil aliens from coming over to the UNITED STATES? nah... they aint haha i just think it's funny that so many people are going around saying, "oh we gotta get the military down there, we gotta put the military on the border, to close the border, to stop the drugs and border jumpers...."


the U.S. army has been letting these drug cartel guys smuggle drugs over the border ON MILITARY PLANES -- their favorite is the C-130


there was a marine colonel or something in that big-ass base in texas that i can't remember the name cause im a little high (El Toro or something....?)
who found out about this, tried to blow the whistle, but he ended up blowing into the ears of somebody in on it, and they fuckin' killed his ass and then covered it up.....


so the idea that the military is gonna stop the drug trade, or anything else on the border is just a monument to stupidity....
its on the same order as building the Great Wall of China to keep out the Mongols

(for those who don't know mongolian history: the chinese spent hundreds of years building a 4,000 mile wall to keep the mongols out. so the mongols dried the tears of laughter from their eyes and LITERALLY WENT AROUND THE FUCKIN' THING)



Weed is for boarder jumpers. Put that away, have a little self-respect.
and you says the military is bringing in drugs with the Mexican cartels, it's race-related! Every problem in this country is race-related! Not just crime...it's immigration, AIDS, welfare! Those are problems of the black community, the Hispanic community, the Asian community! They're not white problems!
Alot of people say
Aren't those really issues that deal more with poverty?
No! They're not products of their environments! That's crap! Minorities don't give two shits about this country! They come here to exploit it, not to embrace it!

[NosVette]

reps fpr you man bc that is true youll rarely see a white guy(not trying to be racist) cutting lawns for min. wage in 100 degree weather from 6 am till sunset. ever!

btw independece day is september 16. cinco de mayo is when mexico defeated france in a war

lol I knew that wasnt the right history mark...I kept thinking of it when I went to sleep....

[bu villain]

Weed is for boarder jumpers. Put that away, have a little self-respect.
and you says the military is bringing in drugs with the Mexican cartels, it's race-related! Every problem in this country is race-related! Not just crime...it's immigration, AIDS, welfare! Those are problems of the black community, the Hispanic community, the Asian community! They're not white problems!
Alot of people say
Aren't those really issues that deal more with poverty?
No! They're not products of their environments! That's crap! Minorities don't give two shits about this country! They come here to exploit it, not to embrace it!

Every problem in this country is caused by non whites? I just have one question for you... does that white hood ever get itchy?.

[The Creeper]

LOL @ people thinking that Mexicans and other latin americans are the hardest working guys in the world. Have any of you stating this mess speaking from direct experience?

[Vteckidd]

When it comes to lower paying jobs I would say the concensus is Latinos work harder and longer than blacks and whites.

If they didn't then why do they have all the construction, landscaping jobs?

[sti_cham]

Every problem in this country is caused by non whites? I just have one question for you... does that white hood ever get itchy?.

To answer your first question yes,Millions of white Europeans came to this country and flourished within a generation! A generation! So what the fuck is wrong with these people?!
To answer your second question, I'm not a member of the fuckin' low rent, disorganized, redneck Ku Klux Klan

[bu villain]

To answer your first question yes,Millions of white Europeans came to this country and flourished within a generation! A generation! So what the fuck is wrong with these people?!

You're right... I forgot that white people don't transmit diseases, aren't on welfare, and don't commit crimes. God bless (white) America!

[sti_cham]

You're right... I forgot that white people don't transmit diseases, aren't on welfare, and don't commit crimes. God bless (white) America!

A couple of cranks in cabins in Montana is not statistically significant. White Americans don't take PCP and drink and drive a hundred and twenty fuckin' miles an hour (Rodney King). We pull over and trust the law.

[BanginJimmy]

A couple of cranks in cabins in Montana is not statistically significant. White Americans don't take PCP and drink and drive a hundred and twenty fuckin' miles an hour (Rodney King). We pull over and trust the law.


Will you please shut up. You do not possess the mental prowess for this forum.

[Total_Blender]

No! They're not products of their environments! That's crap! Minorities don't give two shits about this country! They come here to exploit it, not to embrace it!

Eat shit and die, motherfucker.

[Vteckidd]

this isnt a which race is worse issue. Please dont try and act like the problem is purely race related, IT IS NOT.

It just so happens that in Arizona (and most of the country) the illegal immigration problems lies with LATINOs. Thats not racism thats pure FACT. Thats like saying "most people in africa are black" and then being called a racist LOL.

If youre looking for a person who commited a murder and is WHITE you probably wouldnt look in Harlem first. Right? How is this any different. Habitual offenders are latino, so it makes sense that most of the people they will catch ARE GOING TO BE LATINO.

Thats not saying they wont catch illegal Canadians, Europeans, Muslims, etc. But pure fucking simple math dictates the most of their problem is going to be with spanish people.

Again if you are legal you have NOTHING to worry about.

[bu villain]

^Agreed with everything you said (except people from mexico are mexicans, people from spain are spanish so we don't have a problem with too many illegal spanish people).

Most peoples problem with the law is not with the idea itself, it is in how it COULD be enforced. "Reasonable suspicion" is a very loose term and not everyone in law enforcement would have the same criteria. I'm sure most officers would be very fair but there may be some who abuse that leeway. If the criteria for detaining someone until they produced the proper papers was clear and unambiguous, there would not be such resistance to this law.

[bu villain]

^Agreed with everything you said (except people from mexico are mexicans, people from spain are spanish so we don't have a problem with too many illegal spanish people).

Most peoples problem with the law is not with the idea itself, it is in how it COULD be enforced. "Reasonable suspicion" is a very loose term and not everyone in law enforcement would have the same criteria. I'm sure most officers would be very fair but there may be some who abuse that leeway. If the criteria for detaining someone until they produced the proper papers was clear and unambiguous, there would not be such resistance to this law.

[BanginJimmy]

Most peoples problem with the law is not with the idea itself, it is in how it COULD be enforced. "Reasonable suspicion" is a very loose term and not everyone in law enforcement would have the same criteria. I'm sure most officers would be very fair but there may be some who abuse that leeway. If the criteria for detaining someone until they produced the proper papers was clear and unambiguous, there would not be such resistance to this law.

You do know that most laws on the books are written in the same manner dont you? The add on legislation makes perfectly clear what was intended with the original law, that no one can be stopped for the purposes of enforcing this law and they can only be asked their status if they are under police control for some other infraction, such as speeding.

Sounds to me like you are opposed to a law that you know nothing about, much like Obama, Holder, and Sec of DHS.

[bu villain]

You do know that most laws on the books are written in the same manner dont you? The add on legislation makes perfectly clear what was intended with the original law, that no one can be stopped for the purposes of enforcing this law and they can only be asked their status if they are under police control for some other infraction, such as speeding.

Sounds to me like you are opposed to a law that you know nothing about, much like Obama, Holder, and Sec of DHS.

I don't think there is any confusion about what the law says. I am aware that they must be stopped for other purposes first and that many other laws require some level of officer judgement. Additionally I believe the law is well intentioned but that doesn't alleviate the concerns.

Take for example a mexican born (but lawful immigrant) who does not speak english well. This law will practically ensure that he is scrutinized more than say a white person who speaks good english if they were to both be pulled over for speeding. Many people consider this unfair. I don't know why this concern is so hard to grasp.

You can argue that we should be discriminating in such a way because its the best way to stop illegal immigration but that doesn't mean people who disagree don't understand the law.

[BanginJimmy]

I don't think there is any confusion about what the law says. I am aware that they must be stopped for other purposes first and that many other laws require some level of officer judgement. Additionally I believe the law is well intentioned but that doesn't alleviate the concerns.

Take for example a mexican born (but lawful immigrant) who does not speak english well. This law will practically ensure that he is scrutinized more than say a white person who speaks good english if they were to both be pulled over for speeding. Many people consider this unfair. I don't know why this concern is so hard to grasp.

We agree completely, it isnt fair, but when has life EVER been fair to everyone? Because the problem there centers around the hispanic population it is a given fact that hispanics will be more heavily scrutinized. It isnt that the concern is hard to grasp, it is the fact that no one knows another way to go about it. Do you think that checking the immigration status of a white guy that speaks fluent english in an area that 90% + of illegals are hispanic and speak little to no english is a better solution? This is why profiling works, racial or otherwise. It goes a very long way to narrow a suspect pool. If they try to go further than that based solely on race then you are talking about a completely different issue all together.

We also agree that this law does nothing to fix the underlying problem, which is that our border security is a joke. I truely believe this law has more to do with forcing illegals out of Arizona and forcing the feds to act than it really is about enforcing federal law. I also believe that Brewer will rescind the law if the feds act in a way she feels is appropriate.




You can argue that we should be discriminating in such a way because its the best way to stop illegal immigration but that doesn't mean people who disagree don't understand the law.


How is the law in any way discriminatory? Unless you consider singling out criminals to be discrimination, this law does nothing that can be construed as discriminatory. And yes, everyone that is in this country illegally is a criminal.

[sti_cham]

Will you please shut up. You do not possess the mental prowess for this forum.

lol apparently no one has watched American History X
all i have said on this thread are quotes from that movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120586/quotes

:headslap: @ the fact no one has, but its not as funny anymore, but iam indeed no racist lol

....should of did this in the whores lounge :ninja:

[Browning151]

Many people consider this unfair.

I hate hearing the "it isn't fair" argument for anything, period. Life isn't fair, people need to get over that crap and put their big boy or girl pants on and deal with this thing called life.
(I'm not attacking you personally, I'm talking in general because I hear that crap all the time)


lol apparently no one has watched American History X
all i have said on this thread are quotes from that movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120586/quotes

:headslap: @ the fact no one has, but its not as funny anymore, but iam indeed no racist lol

....should of did this in the whores lounge :ninja:

Sounds like that's more your speed.

[bu villain]

We agree completely, it isnt fair, but when has life EVER been fair to everyone? Because the problem there centers around the hispanic population it is a given fact that hispanics will be more heavily scrutinized. It isnt that the concern is hard to grasp, it is the fact that no one knows another way to go about it. Do you think that checking the immigration status of a white guy that speaks fluent english in an area that 90% + of illegals are hispanic and speak little to no english is a better solution? This is why profiling works, racial or otherwise. It goes a very long way to narrow a suspect pool. If they try to go further than that based solely on race then you are talking about a completely different issue all together.

Sounds like we agree on everything except whether the ends justify the means.


We also agree that this law does nothing to fix the underlying problem, which is that our border security is a joke. I truely believe this law has more to do with forcing illegals out of Arizona and forcing the feds to act than it really is about enforcing federal law. I also believe that Brewer will rescind the law if the feds act in a way she feels is appropriate.

Yup I'm with you on this.


How is the law in any way discriminatory? Unless you consider singling out criminals to be discrimination, this law does nothing that can be construed as discriminatory. And yes, everyone that is in this country illegally is a criminal.

I thought your first paragraph was about how it would be discriminatory against hispanics but that was okay because that's what made it effective. Yes people who are in this country illegally are criminals. I am more concerned about the people who are hispanic and are legal. I don't think they should pay the price because they happen to be of the same ethnic heritage as many illegals.

[bu villain]

I hate hearing the "it isn't fair" argument for anything, period. Life isn't fair, people need to get over that crap and put their big boy or girl pants on and deal with this thing called life.
(I'm not attacking you personally, I'm talking in general because I hear that crap all the time)

So because life isn't fair, we shouldn't strive for fairness? You can't justify how things should be by how things are. Aren't people upset because illegals are UNFAIRLY taking jobs and putting a burden on society? Unfairness is okay as long as you aren't on the receiving end of it, huh?

[Browning151]

So because life isn't fair, we shouldn't strive for fairness? You can't justify how things should be by how things are. Aren't people upset because illegals are UNFAIRLY taking jobs and putting a burden on society? Unfairness is okay as long as you aren't on the receiving end of it, huh?

I think you're referring to equality more than fairness, that's two different things altogether, but I may be wrong. What do you define as "fairness?" Illegals aren't unfairly taking jobs, they're doing it illegally i.e. against the law. I don't see that as a fairness issue, but a legal issue.

[BanginJimmy]

I thought your first paragraph was about how it would be discriminatory against hispanics but that was okay because that's what made it effective.

Nothing in my first paragraph had anything to do with discrimination, it had to do with profiling to narrow the suspect pool. It is no different than police immediately interviewing all sex offenders in the area if a child is kidnapped. In my example the criteria was sex offender, in AZ the criteria is race. There is nothing wrong with that other than not being politically correct. It has nothing to do with discrimination or with racism.



Yes people who are in this country illegally are criminals. I am more concerned about the people who are hispanic and are legal. I don't think they should pay the price because they happen to be of the same ethnic heritage as many illegals.

If they are hispanic and are legal they have nothing to worry about. In 99% of cases a state issued ID will be enough for cops to drop the issue. Those that dont carry any ID will be the ones that run into issues.

[bu villain]

I think you're referring to equality more than fairness, that's two different things altogether, but I may be wrong. What do you define as "fairness?" Illegals aren't unfairly taking jobs, they're doing it illegally i.e. against the law. I don't see that as a fairness issue, but a legal issue.

I think its counter productive to argue semantics in this case. No one is debating whether illegal immigrants are breaking the law. The debate is solely about the proper way to address it. This is both a legal and ethical issue.

[Total_Blender]

What do you define as "fairness?" Illegals aren't unfairly taking jobs, they're doing it illegally i.e. against the law. I don't see that as a fairness issue, but a legal issue.

They aren't "taking" jobs they are just underbidding legal workers on them. Nothing but sound free market principles there. You could have the same jobs the illegals have if you were willing to work for the same pay and working conditions. Just show up at the Home Depot at 5:30am.

Seriously though, nothing is gonna happen to illegal immigration unless we start going after the employers. You think an illegal immigrant gives a shit about all the right-wingers talking tough on IA? Hell no, they are gonna hop that fence and go to work son. If we go after the employers who hire illegals and make the employers keep records of their workers and pay taxes on them the jobs will become harder to get and the immigrants will stop coming.

Seriously, it is not hard to find places that hire illegals. I worked at a restaurant that paid cash under the table to its illegal employees. They had a couple of employees who were legal and they didn't claim the rest. At tax time you compare the size of the business, their profit margins and inventory to the number of employees they claim. If it looks suspicious you go and investigate.

[bu villain]

Nothing in my first paragraph had anything to do with discrimination, it had to do with profiling to narrow the suspect pool. It is no different than police immediately interviewing all sex offenders in the area if a child is kidnapped. In my example the criteria was sex offender, in AZ the criteria is race. There is nothing wrong with that other than not being politically correct. It has nothing to do with discrimination or with racism.

Ok once again I will avoid any semantic argument and I will use profiling instead. Profiling can be an effective tool but the ethics of it are questionable to many. In the example of sex offenders, having been convicted of commiting an especially heinous act, we as a society have agreed that certain freedoms and rights are justifiably lost. Thus we are not concerned with infringing their rights in such a minor way. Of course you can't say ALL latinos have committed a crime so this same justification does not work with them.

Now take the case of profiling for a recently committed crime. A young black male just robbed a liquor store so the police pull over a car in the area with a driver matching the description. This can be a gray area and has caused a lot of uproar in the past as we know. Is simply being of the same skin color enough to justify being pulled over? Is a general car description match also required? This is something we all may draw the line differently on. It depends on how we weigh the rights of the profiled against the desire to capture the criminal.

Additionally, you're right that this law isn't racist, however some people are. Some people fear that some of those racist people might just also be cops in Arizona who will use this law to harass latinos. Police discretion is necessary but there is always a risk when we bestow that power on them.


If they are hispanic and are legal they have nothing to worry about. In 99% of cases a state issued ID will be enough for cops to drop the issue. Those that dont carry any ID will be the ones that run into issues.

So lets say a hispanic man with poor english and a black man are both pulled over in Arizona for speeding and both forgot their driver licenses at home. Under this law, will both men be treated equally considering they have committed the same crimes?