CALLOUT: DYNO CHALLENGE EVAN , MOSELY and KIZDAWAY

[Vteckidd]

Since you guys want to keep bringing this up, im offering you a no lose scenario.

Mosely you said this about me dynoing Evans car:

CHALLENGE 1


. You just screwed up his dyno that bad. Besides, why do you always use his car as a benchmark, and more specifically, the dyno run that YOU did using his car? I would just drop this but you continue to bring up this bogus dyno run again and again.


This is what he made that day(the lower number with his SSR header)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/Vteckidd/SSRvsKiddRACING.jpg


Chunky and i are inviting you to settle the score once and for all. Bring Evans car to Mainstream Performance and we will strap his car down. YOu have 1 hour to try and pull better numbers out of it or do whatever you want to it to try and get back to his "REAL NUMBERS" you think i somehow erased.



CHALLENGE 2
Bring Luis aka KIZDAWAY to mainstreams dyno and you again have 1 hour to extract as much power out of his car as you can. We will see how close this 218whp number is.



WE WILL PAY FOR DYNO TIME

Afterwards we all go out for dinner.

Cost to you guys is NOTHING.

[chunky]

I'll strap the cars down, hookup the wideband if you want (make sure you have a bung for it), and you guys can run the dyno. Mike and I won't touch the cars otherwise. Evan gets an hour, Luis gets an hour. Tune it yourself, bring your own tuner, we don't care. Then you can see for yourself if Mike really tampered with the dyno or not. Invite your friends to come watch if you want.

Whatever the case, let's do this. It'll be fun, I promise. :)

[05dc5s]

Sounds like a win win situation. If im off Ill buy us all a round of drinks at dinner.

[SPOOLIN]

ill bring the hearing protection.

[Formally...]

Am I invited? I need directions on how to get there though.

[Vteckidd]

ill be up there tonight if you are sticking around :P

[BABY J]

Am I invited? I need directions on how to get there though.

Just follow me - I kinda know the way. Well - I can get us close... we can figure out the rest.

[ejohnson88]

I think it's funny because I didn't incite any of this this time haha... When are you guys available? Tomorrow? Moseley is out of town...?

[Da_unknown]

lmk when its going down

[Vteckidd]

I think it's funny because I didn't incite any of this this time haha... When are you guys available? Tomorrow? Moseley is out of town...?

I have nothing against you , and this is just to stop mosely and anyone else from thinking otherwise. We can settle this very easily.

I'd be down to do it tomorrow night provided Charles can let us use the dyno

[chunky]

I think it's funny because I didn't incite any of this this time haha... When are you guys available? Tomorrow? Moseley is out of town...?

When will you, luis & ryan all be available together? I'm pretty flexible and can be there any evening for the most part. The rest depends on dyno availability.

[ejohnson88]

yeah well this is the last 2 weeks of the semester for me, so Chunky know's how busy I will be, so It might not be till finals are over on my part, and the weather is less than ideal this weekend haha.

[Kason23]

Damn..Good way to settle it. Wish someone would offer me a "free" dyno to try and tune on lol.

[CHADbee]

Damn..Good way to settle it. Wish someone would offer me a "free" dyno to try and tune on lol.

i bet mike would....you just have an hour to put his header on your car :headslap:

[h22 jones]

This is how things should be handled even if you do have something against mike you have to respect this.

[Vteckidd]

yeah well this is the last 2 weeks of the semester for me, so Chunky know's how busy I will be, so It might not be till finals are over on my part, and the weather is less than ideal this weekend haha.

Fair enough good luck on your finals school is def more important :p just let me know when you are available or I'll check back with you in a week

[chunky]

yeah well this is the last 2 weeks of the semester for me, so Chunky know's how busy I will be, so It might not be till finals are over on my part, and the weather is less than ideal this weekend haha.

Yeah, I know how it goes with finals. It'll a fun night whenever this happens. Esp if certain motors get built & decide to show up as well. ><

[Moseley]

Mike, I respect you for doing this but I still think this is blown out of proportion. I never said you erased or doctored the dyno results in any way but somehow you and others keep saying that I am accusing you of that. All I ever said is that it was poorly executed. What I meant by that is that it shouldn't have been used as a comparison. If you want to know why I think that, post up all of Evan's runs on the SSR header that day, there was never any consistancy in those runs, yet the runs on your header we're all pretty consistent. Also, after discovering that his exhaust wouldn't bolt up to your header and doing the pulls on your header without an exhaust bolted up, you should have done 3 open header pulls on the SSR as a comparison. I don't think you were comparing apples to apples that day.

So with that out of the way, free dyno time for Evan sounds like a win. Luis has some new stuff and I'm not sure he wants to reveal what his car makes at this time, so I doubt he'll come. Either way May is pretty wide open for me so I can probably make it whenever this happens.

[JGilbert312]

very fair way to resolve the issue.

[Vteckidd]

Mike, I respect you for doing this but I still think this is blown out of proportion. I never said you erased or doctored the dyno results in any way but somehow you and others keep saying that I am accusing you of that. All I ever said is that it was poorly executed. What I meant by that is that it shouldn't have been used as a comparison. If you want to know why I think that, post up all of Evan's runs on the SSR header that day, there was never any consistancy in those runs, yet the runs on your header we're all pretty consistent. Also, after discovering that his exhaust wouldn't bolt up to your header and doing the pulls on your header without an exhaust bolted up, you should have done 3 open header pulls on the SSR as a comparison. I don't think you were comparing apples to apples that day.

So with that out of the way, free dyno time for Evan sounds like a win. Luis has some new stuff and I'm not sure he wants to reveal what his car makes at this time, so I doubt he'll come. Either way May is pretty wide open for me so I can probably make it whenever this happens.

you werent there, all you have is second hand information. Im not trying to be a dick but you cant sit here and tell me i did something wrong if you werent there and you are getting information from Evan who quite frankly, and no offense to him, doesnt really understand what went on. Im not going to go into specifics cause ive already done that 19 times, ill just save it for the day you guys show up.

Having said that, anytime you guys are down let us know, ive got plenty of free time.

[ejohnson88]

I feel your understanding of my understanding is rather poor as well...

[Vteckidd]

Well let's see how far off I was shall we? That's the point of this, to stop the talking and start the action

[chunky]

Mike, I respect you for doing this but I still think this is blown out of proportion. I never said you erased or doctored the dyno results in any way but somehow you and others keep saying that I am accusing you of that. All I ever said is that it was poorly executed. What I meant by that is that it shouldn't have been used as a comparison. If you want to know why I think that, post up all of Evan's runs on the SSR header that day, there was never any consistancy in those runs, yet the runs on your header we're all pretty consistent. Also, after discovering that his exhaust wouldn't bolt up to your header and doing the pulls on your header without an exhaust bolted up, you should have done 3 open header pulls on the SSR as a comparison. I don't think you were comparing apples to apples that day.

So with that out of the way, free dyno time for Evan sounds like a win. Luis has some new stuff and I'm not sure he wants to reveal what his car makes at this time, so I doubt he'll come. Either way May is pretty wide open for me so I can probably make it whenever this happens.

Luis can keep his dynos under wraps. No problem with that. We can keep the date & time amongst the actual participants to keep curious onlookers at bay. let's do this!

[112480]

hehe.......i will be there! the fly on the wall! Come'on Luis! Rep for the K's!

[Vteckidd]

If it happens it will be a private session unless they state otherwise

[chunky]

It's May! Finals time is over, let's get this done!

[112480]

If it happens it will be a private session unless they state otherwise

Hence the "fly on the wall":ninja: And u know mike i could care less what luis or evan makes cause when i'm ready i'm going after the actual FAST guys ie. NEMO and Disco Monkey just to name two. u know guys who actually go to the track and are proven and who r not afraid to come on here and accpet challanges and dont give excuses why they cant make the challange.

[chunky]

Hence the "fly on the wall":ninja: And u know mike i could care less what luis or evan makes cause when i'm ready i'm going after the actual FAST guys ie. NEMO and Disco Monkey just to name two. u know guys who actually go to the track and are proven and who r not afraid to come on here and accpet challanges and dont give excuses why they cant make the challange.

It's up to ejohnson & kizdaway who can show up since it's their cars.

[112480]

It's up to ejohnson & kizdaway who can show up since it's their cars.

TRUE:yes: but outcome still doesnt matter:ninja:

[05dc5s]

edit

[112480]

Shouldnt you have a running car before you talk smack about another guy whom you just proved you know nothing about and have no idea whats going on with?

Seriously have a running car before you say youre going to go after the "fast" guys becasue the fact remains that NEMO and Kizdaway never ran so you dont actually know which one is faster.

and u r who:thinking: not talking smack about anyone. I SAID COME'ON LUIS AND REP FOR THE K'S! sheessh.....some ppl never learn, but thank you for saying that so i know who to ignore in the future:crazy:

BTW i could care less who's faster between the two, whether i have a running car or not.

[05dc5s]

Hence the "fly on the wall":ninja: And u know mike i could care less what luis or evan makes cause when i'm ready i'm going after the actual FAST guys ie. NEMO and Disco Monkey just to name two. u know guys who actually go to the track and are proven and who r not afraid to come on here and accpet challanges and dont give excuses why they cant make the challange.

Shouldnt you have a running car before you talk smack about another guy whom you just proved you know nothing about and have no idea whats going on with?

Seriously have a running car before you say youre going to go after the "fast" guys becasue the fact remains that NEMO and Kizdaway never ran so you dont actually know which one is faster.

[05dc5s]

and u r who:thinking: not talking smack about anyone. I SAID COME'ON LUIS AND REP FOR THE K'S! sheessh.....some ppl never learn, but thank you for saying that so i know who to ignore in the future:crazy:

BTW i could care less who's faster between the two, wheter i have a running car or not.

Ok so I was mistaken in the way I took that you said you were going to go after the "fast" cars? I dont think I was and I dont think you have anything for Kizdaway either.

[112480]

Shouldnt you have a running car before you talk smack about another guy whom you just proved you know nothing about and have no idea whats going on with?

Seriously have a running car before you say youre going to go after the "fast" guys becasue the fact remains that NEMO and Kizdaway never ran so you dont actually know which one is faster.

Lame:screwy:

[chunky]

TRUE:yes: but outcome still doesnt matter:ninja:

What outcome are you talking about?

05dc5s is right in that you shouldn't start calling names out until you've finished your build.

[05dc5s]

Lame:screwy:

LMAO that you are calling someone else screwy.

[112480]

What outcome are you talking about?

05dc5s is right in that you shouldn't start calling names out until you've finished your build.

LOL! well chunky if u must know in another OLDER thread in the all motor forum, NEMO actually told me he wanted to be the first on my list and I'M DONE, just waiting on the shop to build it. Mike will let u know the outcome if u want.

BUT ANYWAY LIKE I SAID, LUIS REP FOR THE K'S:goodjob:

[NEMO]

hell i cant keep my shit running long enough so i can prove anything

[112480]

I dont think you have anything for Kizdaway either.

And ur right sir, cause my car is down:D

[05dc5s]

And ur right sir, cause my car is down:D

That was exacty my point about your comments...:D

[112480]

hell i cant keep my shit running long enough so i can prove anything

LOL! I'll proly have the same problem nemo.

[112480]

Ok so I was mistaken in the way I took that you said you were going to go after the "fast" cars?

Yep right again sir:yes:

[05dc5s]

Yep right again sir:yes:

I think we both know what you were implying by that but ok its cool. Im glad we both agree that you need a running car deciding whom is going to be called "fast". :goodjob:

[h22 jones]

wish i was fast . It seems to stay running everyday though lol.

[chunky]

Come on guys, let's do this before I start traveling all over in June.

[Vteckidd]

Waiting can't believe there's no takers

[b@d @pple]

its easy to talk shit until the ability to prove or disprove ones shit talking becomes an option

[OnURleft]

Waiting can't believe there's no takers

Patience is a virtue. Maybe if you're so stuck on this you should find other things to pre-occupy yourself with. It's clear that both have mentioned they are down to do this...
One just bought a new house and works so much i'm suprised he even posts here
The other one just got engauged right after he finished finals
The 3rd doesn't post here much, hasn't been apart of this and has his numbers

It's crazy that your so worked up posting literaly daily because someone merely suggested your procedures dyno'ing the cars was not as accurate as it could've been. I fully support his claim based on the evidence you posted and think it is perfectly justified.
It's a great thing that you offered them this, i'm not denying this, just give it a rest and let us know after it has happened. This should be in O.T until it's done.

[Vteckidd]

If he has time enough to talk shit on the Internet he has rime to prove me wrong. Period.

I'm just as busy as anyone else but when someone attempts to discredit me when they weren't even present and received second hand info, then I'm down to set the record straight.

My guess is this wl never happen because all 3 will make excuses they are too busy or the drive is too far etc.

You can say they accepted all they want but until it actually happens it's a moot point

[OnURleft]

[QUOTE=Vteckidd;39034010]If he has time enough to talk shit on the Internet he has rime to prove me wrong. Period.

If the world were that simple...Sorry dude, globalization is making shit talking possible without much effort.



I'm just as busy as anyone else but when someone attempts to discredit me when they weren't even present and received second hand info, then I'm down to set the record straight.

My guess is this wl never happen because all 3 will make excuses they are too busy or the drive is too far etc.

You can say they accepted all they want but until it actually happens it's a moot point

Again

Actually if you go back and read the archives, Ryan suggested your procedures were inaccurate (which is true IMO), which in turn does dis-credit you. Sucks. That's not shit talking that's a response to information placed on a public forum. Sorry, live and learn you're unprofessional on a daily basis, it wasn't surprising to me at all you responded how you did.
Then...
No shit talking was present until you unconsciously assumed he was trying to down-play you when he was offering a suggestion that you procedures were not executed as accurately as they could've been, and you then attacked him for it. This creatied a shit storm drama fest. Again, no surprise there either.
I've since had 3 friends of mine buy K headers, and based on how you treat people who are even here to offer advice is why is directed them to someone else. Cute how you resort to playing the victim when you own unconscious behavior started the problem.

[Vteckidd]

You've already demonstrated your biased against me. You always gloat how you make people buy sething else other than my product which really is just a childish attempt at making me angry.

I sell plent of headers buddy so that's a moot point.

And you don't know the whole story , mosely AND Evan claimed I lied and rigged dynos because Evan was mad his car didn't break 200whp

I donthave time to explain it all to you go look it up

this doesn't concern you though so thanks for an opinion that doesn't really mean anythig

[OnURleft]

You've already demonstrated your biased against me. You always gloat how you make people buy sething else other than my product which really is just a childish attempt at making me angry.

I sell plent of headers buddy so that's a moot point.

And you don't know the whole story , mosely AND Evan claimed I lied and rigged dynos because Evan was mad his car didn't break 200whp

I donthave time to explain it all to you go look it up

this doesn't concern you though so thanks for an opinion that doesn't really mean anythig

This is only the 2nd time i've mentioned that, and I do that to WARN people what kind of person they are buying from. Again, public forum it's not all about you. You're
mad every time I read a thread with you in it, why fuel the flame that doesn't need any gas? You don't need any assists to piss you off more

It concerned me when your shit talking was affecting my friends.

I know what was said, I also know what was said sarcastically. I don't really care though because it turned into a shit storm online with plenty of false accusations and such.
However, I do support this happening because it's a mature solution, but to something that only one person cares about and if your going to want to get it done then your going to have to wait for others to find disposable time.

[chunky]

If the world were that simple...Sorry dude, globalization is making shit talking possible without much effort.



Again

Actually if you go back and read the archives, Ryan suggested your procedures were inaccurate (which is true IMO), which in turn does dis-credit you. Sucks. That's not shit talking that's a response to information placed on a public forum. Sorry, live and learn you're unprofessional on a daily basis, it wasn't surprising to me at all you responded how you did.
Then...
No shit talking was present until you unconsciously assumed he was trying to down-play you when he was offering a suggestion that you procedures were not executed as accurately as they could've been, and you then attacked him for it. This creatied a shit storm drama fest. Again, no surprise there either.
I've since had 3 friends of mine buy K headers, and based on how you treat people who are even here to offer advice is why is directed them to someone else. Cute how you resort to playing the victim when you own unconscious behavior started the problem.

That is exactly how this shit got started. Things became a dramafest because people that weren't present when the events in question happened formed their own opinions based on incomplete information. People that weren't present passed off their OPINIONS as being the truth, which is what you just did in your little parenthetical. You weren't there, your opinion is just that, not the truth. So don't use the two words in the same sentence.

[chunky]

This is only the 2nd time i've mentioned that, and I do that to WARN people what kind of person they are buying from. Again, public forum it's not all about you. You're
mad every time I read a thread with you in it, why fuel the flame that doesn't need any gas? You don't need any assists to piss you off more

It concerned me when your shit talking was affecting my friends.

I know what was said, I also know what was said sarcastically. I don't really care though because it turned into a shit storm online with plenty of false accusations and such.
However, I do support this happening because it's a mature solution, but to something that only one person cares about and if your going to want to get it done then your going to have to wait for others to find disposable time.

It's funny b/c your friends are the ones that do most of the shit talking against mike. Mike just defends himself every time they make a passive-aggressive remark about how he skewed the dyno test to make his header look better.

All this puts me in a sticky situation b/c I have no issues with ejohnson, kizdaway, or mosley. I think they're all cool dudes and I'm always down to hang out with them. I've also known Mike for a very long time, and I know that he would not risk his reputation by purposefully skewing a dyno test in the way he's being accused of doing. I have a personal interest in seeing all parties get together to work things out b/c it squashes the drama between people that are all friends to me.

[OnURleft]

That is exactly how this shit got started. Things became a dramafest because people that weren't present when the events in question happened formed their own opinions based on incomplete information. People that weren't present passed off their OPINIONS as being the truth, which is what you just did in your little parenthetical. You weren't there, your opinion is just that, not the truth. So don't use the two words in the same sentence.


Actually shit got started when thread maker started using threats to someone who made a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Maybe you should start reading more and taking sides less. It's true in my own opinion, because based on the evidence presented by vteckkid (his lack of a clear procedure posted on the thread) and the suggestion made by Moseley (this thread needs more information), I could weighe what I believe to be the correct, taking no sides. The procedures were not done as accurately as possible..simple as that. Anything more in depth is really beyond me. I stop after that

[chunky]

Actually shit got started when thread maker started using threats to someone who made a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Maybe you should start reading more and taking sides less. It's true in my own opinion, because based on the evidence presented by vteckkid (his lack of a clear procedure posted on the thread) and the suggestion made by Moseley (this thread needs more information), I could weighe what I believe to be the correct, taking no sides. The procedures were not done as accurately as possible..simple as that. Anything more in depth is really beyond me. I stop after that

I never fully read that thread, but I know that Mike would not run a car on the dyno unless it was up to temperature. He's run more cars on the dyno than most people on this forum, he knows, without thinking, to warm up a car before doing a pull. Aside from which, there were multiple pulls done on the SSR header until the power stabilized on the SSR header. Then the header was swapped, and more pulls were done until power stabilized again. It's really not a complicated thing. All that was needed was to show a general trend. Mike did not tamper with the ECU, there was no laptop present.

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Anyhow, all of this stems from people that weren't there forming strong opinions & passing them off as the truth. You're allowed to have your opinion, but it's kind of a dick thing to pass it off as truth when you weren't there.

[OnURleft]

I never fully read that thread, but I know that Mike would not run a car on the dyno unless it was up to temperature. He's run more cars on the dyno than most people on this forum, he knows, without thinking, to warm up a car before doing a pull. Aside from which, there were multiple pulls done on the SSR header until the power stabilized on the SSR header. Then the header was swapped, and more pulls were done until power stabilized again. It's really not a complicated thing. All that was needed was to show a general trend. Mike did not tamper with the ECU, there was no laptop present.

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Anyhow, all of this stems from people that weren't there forming strong opinions & passing them off as the truth. You're allowed to have your opinion, but it's kind of a dick thing to pass it off as truth when you weren't there.

Like I said much of this information was lacking in the thread. A clear and professional procedure was even unclear. Shops like Top Speed, Bimmerworld and others post their R&D with the utmost clarity so their is no question.
Step 1. xxxx
Step 2. xxxx
These are the precautions we took for the following steps.
These are the variables for the following steps
This is what our data shows, in relation to those variables
Step 3. xxx
etc. etc. etc. etc.. Obviously this a quick example lacking

Instead, I read something a little on the lines of...
-This is what it made
-look what I made
That's that. Pretty much a hasty generalization backed by what seemed to be something like "because I said so." "because my credibility doesn't need to clarify" ---- Obviously I am using a quick example again, lacking because I don't need to provide any more detail to make my point

Ryan then came in and suggested his procedures lacked and information was unclear. Mike took it personally and stabbed back, forcing Ryan to take defense. After that the "rigging" accusations were made (IIRC) etc.etc. I'm not involved in any of that because I push away from drama of that nature. I merely stated I agree with Ryan's original claim, it's that simple.

[chunky]

Like I said much of this information was lacking in the thread. A clear and professional procedure was even unclear. Shops like Top Speed, Bimmerworld and others post their R&D with the utmost clarity so their is no question.
Step 1. xxxx
Step 2. xxxx
These are the precautions we took for the following steps.
These are the variables for the following steps
This is what our data shows, in relation to those variables
Step 3. xxx
etc. etc. etc. etc.. Obviously this a quick example lacking

Instead, I read something a little on the lines of...
-This is what it made
-look what I made
That's that. Pretty much a hasty generalization backed by what seemed to be something like "because I said so." "because my credibility doesn't need to clarify" ---- Obviously I am using a quick example again, lacking because I don't need to provide any more detail to make my point

Ryan then came in and suggested his procedures lacked and information was unclear. Mike took it personally and stabbed back, forcing Ryan to take defense. After that the "rigging" accusations were made (IIRC) etc.etc. I'm not involved in any of that because I push away from drama of that nature. I merely stated I agree with Ryan's original claim, it's that simple.

From having worked with mike on a few high profile dyno tests with manufacturer involvement (not kidd racing), I can say with confidence that no matter what precautions you take, people will always make their own assumptions & try to pick apart your credibility. I think that's why mike uses the 2 step approach he does: 1) show what the brand name header made, 2) show what the kidd racing header made. Most of the people that are interested in a budget or knock off header don't care about anything else. They just want some assurance that the product will make power. Which it does. The test was never presented as the end-all-be-all of comparisons. Just a demo of how things worked out.

All the criticisms of Mike's dyno procedure stem from the fact that Evan's motor did not make anything close to the 21x whp it was expected to make when dyno tested at mainstream. The expectation of 21x whp stems from a false dyno plot that was given to Evan when his car was built. That setup certain expectations on the dyno that weren't met, and people got upset. Since then, I think Evan has been told what happened with that initial dyno plot he was given.

However, how good of an idea does Evan, or anyone else for that matter, have of what his motor should make on the dyno? I wonder how many times Evan has strapped his car to the dyno since mainstream? If there was any kind of counter-evidence showing that Evan's car made more power, I could understand the criticisms of mike's dyno procedure. However, there is no such evidence floating around to substantiate any of the claims regarding poor dyno procedure. There's no followup dyno of 21x whp that would show just how bad the dyno procedure was.

So here's the deal. The dyno procedure may not have been perfect, but there is absolutely nothing to substantiate the claims that poor dyno procedure substantially affected the outcome. Until REAL evidence arises to show that faulty dyno procedures produced a skewed outcome, the people parroting the same tired old lines based on incomplete information are themselves implementing following faulty procedure, accepting something as truth based on unscientific comparisons.

The comments about where the peak torque happens, where the VTEC point appears to happen, whether the engine is warmed up, it's all hearsay until there is another dyno plot to give those statements credibility. So you can't accuse Mike of not being scientific with equally unscientific assertions.

I hope that Evan & Luis are willing to make this happen. We're willing to make things happen on their terms. Shop is closed to visitors they don't explicitly invite. The dynos can be deleted off of Mainstream's computer afterward to keep results private. They get an hour of dyno time to tune their cars. I'm pretty sure that neither one has an ideal tune right now, and that could all be taken care of.

The internet has a way of making things a lot more dramatic than they need to be. This is just a chance to separate from internet/forum drama and get back to having fun doing what we are all trying to do, make power (not excuses).

[Moseley]

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.


Oh yay this is back and kicking again... So what started all of this was that the dyno tests were poorly executed. So let's stop all the BS and talk about why. Here is the graph:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/Vteckidd/EVAN6.jpg
1st run: Was a shakedown, ok
2nd run: Wasn't reved out all the way, but who cares. It made it's power, the torque curve shows everything. it consistently made 4-5 more torque across the board.
3rd run: Look, another 4-5 torque all across the board. This usually happens when the car is still warming up.

That was all the info I had at the time, 3 pulls were done, each one showed an increase of 4-5 lbs of torque, so why was there not a 4th pull? On top of that... the runs on mike's header were done open header. You can claim it makes no difference but that is just speculation. There are many reasons why unbolting the exhaust can affect the power levels of a car. Running open header vs. full exhaust just adds in more variables to the equation. So from my point of view, this was a bad comparison because...

1) Never seeing the SSR pulls stabilize into any sort of consistency
2) Running one header without an exhaust bolted up

That is all I was trying to say from day 1. I never said the tests were rigged so I don't know where all of that came from.

Lately there's a lot of reassuring that there was a 4th pull made but it was deleted for the purposes of building the overlay. I find that funny because there was never any mention of that 4th pull until I layed out exactly where the problem was in the SSR pulls. So here are all of the pulls:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/Vteckidd/evan4.jpg
You know what is funny? If Mike had deleted the 4th pull for the purpose of building the overlay, wouldn't RunFile_004 be missing from the sequence? :D

[ejohnson88]

I can testify that there were in FACT ONLY 3 PULLS done on the SSR header while it was still bolted up to the car. The last pull was the pull that made 194.

But anyways, that's all in the past and that's all said and done. I unfortuntately have began working the evening shift at work for the summer and have been swamped with getting into the summer groove at Conference Services. And as Mentioned before I only finished finals 2 weeks ago and now I am beginning to see where I will have time in my schedule.

If you pick a point some time this week we can get together and get this all finalized and sorted out for the last time so that everyone can be done with this.

[ejohnson88]

Also funny things to note is the fact that the Torque spikes were clearly not tuned out of my header like they were supposed to be and should have looked more like the graph of the test header run... Which doesn't make much sense because the SSR Header was TUNED on that map, not the Test header.... and also a problem was recently discovered that has led to me only having 75% throttle this entire time. So... with some quick fixes and tweaking hoopefully everything cab be settled by the end of this... and we can just all agree on everything lol



Anyways Again I AM pretty much free for the most part this week so what days work best for everyone?

[Vteckidd]

I'm not going to debate it anymore. You can hide on the Internet and point fingers pr you can show up and prove me wrong

take it or leave it.

[Vteckidd]

No offense Evan you couldn't even rememeber what you made hp wise that day. Show up pr shut up

[Vteckidd]

As long as it's not Friday I'm free

[Vteckidd]

Amazing how I sent that pm to mosely 3-4 weeks ago and never got a response

[Moseley]

I could probably make it there tomorrow in the afternoon....

edit: Luis can probably make it then too. Who else is coming and is tomorrow afternoon even available?

[Vteckidd]

You guys are all adults you pick a time and tel me when and I'll set it up. Tomorrow afternoon is fine only times I canT make it are wed afternoon and Friday afternoon/night

but tonight, tues all day or night, wed night Thursday day and night are all open

[chunky]

Oh yay this is back and kicking again... So what started all of this was that the dyno tests were poorly executed. So let's stop all the BS and talk about why. Here is the graph:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/Vteckidd/EVAN6.jpg
1st run: Was a shakedown, ok
2nd run: Wasn't reved out all the way, but who cares. It made it's power, the torque curve shows everything. it consistently made 4-5 more torque across the board.
3rd run: Look, another 4-5 torque all across the board. This usually happens when the car is still warming up.

That was all the info I had at the time, 3 pulls were done, each one showed an increase of 4-5 lbs of torque, so why was there not a 4th pull? On top of that... the runs on mike's header were done open header. You can claim it makes no difference but that is just speculation. There are many reasons why unbolting the exhaust can affect the power levels of a car. Running open header vs. full exhaust just adds in more variables to the equation. So from my point of view, this was a bad comparison because...

1) Never seeing the SSR pulls stabilize into any sort of consistency
2) Running one header without an exhaust bolted up

That is all I was trying to say from day 1. I never said the tests were rigged so I don't know where all of that came from.

Lately there's a lot of reassuring that there was a 4th pull made but it was deleted for the purposes of building the overlay. I find that funny because there was never any mention of that 4th pull until I layed out exactly where the problem was in the SSR pulls. So here are all of the pulls:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/Vteckidd/evan4.jpg
You know what is funny? If Mike had deleted the 4th pull for the purpose of building the overlay, wouldn't RunFile_004 be missing from the sequence? :D

HP also picks up as IATs stabilize. IAT has a big influence in ignition. There are multiple scenarios that could result in power output increasing until things stabilize.

Regarding missing plots, if they're deleted before the next run is made, then the numbering resumes from the highest number present in the directory.

In my experience, I've seen zero gains on k-series motors going from 3" exhaust to open header for an all motor or supercharged car making up to 300whp. I tested this multiple times on the dyno, and I'm confident enough in it that I pretty much never bother tuning motors open header if they have a 3" exhaust. Otherwise when I'm tuning I'll do a few pulls open header to see what the max potential is w/o exhaust restriction.


I can testify that there were in FACT ONLY 3 PULLS done on the SSR header while it was still bolted up to the car. The last pull was the pull that made 194.

But anyways, that's all in the past and that's all said and done. I unfortuntately have began working the evening shift at work for the summer and have been swamped with getting into the summer groove at Conference Services. And as Mentioned before I only finished finals 2 weeks ago and now I am beginning to see where I will have time in my schedule.

If you pick a point some time this week we can get together and get this all finalized and sorted out for the last time so that everyone can be done with this.


Also funny things to note is the fact that the Torque spikes were clearly not tuned out of my header like they were supposed to be and should have looked more like the graph of the test header run... Which doesn't make much sense because the SSR Header was TUNED on that map, not the Test header.... and also a problem was recently discovered that has led to me only having 75% throttle this entire time. So... with some quick fixes and tweaking hoopefully everything cab be settled by the end of this... and we can just all agree on everything lol



Anyways Again I AM pretty much free for the most part this week so what days work best for everyone?

From the last time we spoke, I think you had mentioned that the tune for your SSR header left a lot to be desired. The throttle plate is an issue that should be fixed, but I wouldn't expect big gains from it. It's actually a common problem on k-swaps b/c there's no really good solution for the throttle cable bracket. Whenever it's fixed & the TPS is scaled properly in k-pro, the gains are minimal. The % reading of the TPS sensor is not linear, so 70% is really almost all the way open. Still, it's probably an easy fix and should be done.


I could probably make it there tomorrow in the afternoon....

edit: Luis can probably make it then too. Who else is coming and is tomorrow afternoon even available?


You guys are all adults you pick a time and tel me when and I'll set it up. Tomorrow afternoon is fine only times I canT make it are wed afternoon and Friday afternoon/night

but tonight, tues all day or night, wed night Thursday day and night are all open

I'm available tomorrow afternoon. Tell me what time and I'm there. Tomorrow will actually be a good day for me b/c I'm getting new wheels/tires mounted up & I'll probably be meeting up with matt earlier in the day.

[Vteckidd]

I also love how now it's "my tps wasn't right, my tune was off , the tq was spiking" all months later. If your car was so out of whack why volunteer it?

I stand by my claims, his car made as much as it was going to make that day on both headers. Period. His ssr pulls NEVER made more power than mine it wasn't even close. I did nothing to make that happen.

IF you disagree prove me wrong it's as simple as that.

[chunky]

Relax mike. We'll get it figured out tomorrow one way or the other. I'm glad it's finally going to happen. I've been curious about the truth of the matter for a long time.

[Vteckidd]

dyno is booked for 4pm tomorrow, be there or be square

[Jenson]

Dang, wish I could bring my pos

[ejohnson88]

Alright I will figure out a way to get up there around 4. Cya then!

[Vteckidd]

Evan did you get engaged? If so congrats!

[b@d @pple]

all this over a few horsepower?

[ejohnson88]

ANd Yes I did, and thanks!

[NEMO]

so whats the update?

[Vteckidd]

It's settled. It was a fun time out and new results will be posted later

[05dc5s]

It's settled. It was a fun time out and new results will be posted later

I really appreciate you picking up the tab Mike that was hella cool of you.

[chunky]

It was good to see everyone. The truth was established with some surprising results. Dyno plot to come. :)

[chunky]

Let me start by saying the results were surprising, but in a good way.

First off, the results:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5183/testresultsk.jpg
Evan's car made significantly more power than before, and the SSR header made a few HP more in the upper midrange than the Kiddracing header. The ECU is supposedly tuned for the SSR header, but I think both headers would have a smoother powerband with a better tune. I do not think that peak numbers would change significantly with a better tune.

Here are the plots of the SSR with the exhaust on:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1267/ssrwithexhaust.jpg
The motor made similar power with the 3" exhaust on. However, the bumps in the torque just after the VTEC changeover are present in the plot. Those bumps were cited as an issue on the original test results, but they are still present here. They're related to the nature of the exhaust on Evan's car, not anything to do with how the car was run on the dyno.

Here's a comparison of the SSR with exhaust vs. open header:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1521/ehxaustvsopenheader.jpg
You can see that with open header, the midrange is smoother, but there's not much change in top end power. This is typically the case with a k-series and a 3" exhaust. That the SSR was run with an exhaust and the kiddracing without an exhaust was cited as a problem with the original test. These results show that there isn't much difference between 3" exhaust and open header for peak power.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5241/kiddracingplots.jpg
Just to be complete, here are all the pulls made with the Kiddracing header.

Also, engine tempreature was possibly listed as an issue on the last test. This test, within 3 pulls, the engine was warmed up. The engine had sat for more than an hour prior to making the first pull. By the end of the 2nd pull, it was fully warmed up. It made peak power on the 3rd pull without any special measures to warm up the motor. The runs on the dyno do a pretty good job of warming up the motor. By the 4th pull, power had started to drop, probably due to heat soak starting to take its toll.

The final point I'd mention is that the tach on Evan's dash is way off. On the previous test, it was mentioned that the SSR wasn't revved out all the way. I can see why that would happen, I had the same problem initially, going off of the tach in the dash. Once I realized that the motor wasn't revving out, I used the tach on Evan's laptop. The day the 1st test was conducted, there was no laptop in use so it would have been hard to tell where to actually stop the pull going off of the tach in the dash.

Last time the Kiddracing header won by a few HP. This time it lost by less than 1hp peak, and by a 2-3hp margin in places in the midrange. Why the results are so different from last time, I couldn't tell you. There are other variables involved, such as the throttle cable issue, but discussing them takes us too far into speculation. The bottom line is that this test wasn't conducted that much differently than the last. We just tried to account for certain variables that were questioned in relation to the last test. However, it appears that there was some other even bigger variable affecting both the SSR & Kiddracing header last time around. This time around both headers beat their previous numbers by a significant margin, and it had nothing to do with engine temp, whether or not an exhaust was bolted up, or how far the car was revved out.

Anyhow, I'm glad this is all settled. I hope everyone understands that Mike didn't do anything on purpose to throw the results off. The test procedure last time around wasn't perfect, but the SSR wasn't going to beat the Kiddracing header on that particular day. I'm sure of that. There were enough pulls made on that day to justify that statement. The engine made its peak numbers by the 2nd or 3rd pull. Yesterday, there wasn't any way the Kiddracing was going to beat the SSR. It's a different day, the car has had some miles put on it since the last test, etc etc. I'll never be able to explain why things panned out the way they did last time, nor will I be able to explain why both headers made so much more power this time around. It just demonstrates that you just have to let the dyno do the talking. The dyno just reflects back to you what you strap down to it. Simple as that. There's no way to trick it into making torque bumps or reading more power. If it shows up on the plot, that's what the truth is for that particular day.

It was a lot of fun, till next time! :)

[Vteckidd]

Thanks chunky that's why I was very hands off yesterday I wanted you guys to do it and come to your own conclusions. I was very satisfied with the results, the methods used, and I will say that this test IMO was muc better than the first.

I would like to thank mainstream for letting us stay late and dyno, and mosely matt Evan and Luis for showing up to participate.

Pregnant hooters girls ftl

[05dc5s]

Great post Chunky! Ryan discovered last night that you can go to Tools>Environment Options>Advanced RPM filtering(check the box) and get the graphs to show the car revving all the way out. Its a new feature thats availible in the lastest WinPep software. It doesnt do much to affect Evans dyno(just 1hp on his best run) but for another certain car and for my car I was finally able to view my entire graph in rpm as opposed to having to view it in mph.

The results were extremely suprising to me considering the HUGE power differences from then to now. This time everything was done to make sure all the controls were in place, the cars were warmed up, and that max power from each header was made. I really cant get over how it made so much more this time but its clear that on this test both headers were on par with eachother neither being significantly superior to the other.

In the end both parties had several of the points being made to eachother that were proven in this test however I am certain that no one expected this particular outcome and thats the reason tests/dynos are done.

All in all the suprising thing isnt that the SSR made 2hp more than the KRRH this time when the KRRH made 4hp more last time. Whats suprising is that there was more than a 12% power difference this time compared to last.

[05dc5s]

Thanks chunky that's why I was very hands off yesterday I wanted you guys to do it and come to your own conclusions. I was very satisfied with the results, the methods used, and I will say that this test IMO was muc better than the first.

I would like to thank mainstream for letting us stay late and dyno, and mosely matt Evan and Luis for showing up to participate.

Pregnant hooters girls ftl

:lmfao:

[Vteckidd]

I really appreciate you picking up the tab Mike that was hella cool of you.

Business write off *coughcough*

lol thanks for coming out we should all get together and hang out again that was fun

[Moseley]

I really appreciate you picking up the tab Mike that was hella cool of you.

x2

Thanks for putting this together mike. I was also shocked by the raw hp numbers that were made this time. I think it was a great comparison and shows that there's no reason these days to buy an off the shelf SSR or similar header if you can get the kiddracing for less than 1/2 the price. The only reason I'd see to pay 1000-1200 for a race header is if it is a custom unit.

[b@d @pple]

x2

Thanks for putting this together mike. I was also shocked by the raw hp numbers that were made this time. I think it was a great comparison and shows that there's no reason these days to buy an off the shelf SSR or similar header if you can get the kiddracing for less than 1/2 the price. The only reason I'd see to pay 1000-1200 for a race header is if it is a custom unit.

BOOM HEADSHOT

[05dc5s]

BOOM HEADSHOT

:thinking:

[Formally...]

Glad everything is better now.

New rule though, test cars have to be quiet from now on. That shit was loud.

[Vteckidd]

Glad everything is better now.

New rule though, test cars have to be quiet from now on. That shit was loud.

i called you at 9:52AM, i owe you some monies

[ejohnson88]

Yeah Open header runs were insane... my whole body was vibrating lol... But yeah thanks again to Mike and Chunky for putting in their time and effort to make this happen! It was an extremely fun time and I miss hanging out and doing what we do best, playing with our toys. It was great to see everyone, and I look forward to hanging out again soon! If anything we should make our own private club/meets hahaha!

Thanks as well to Mainstream for allowing us to use their facilities and being cool as usual! Here's to everyone just having a good time again :D

[KIZDAWAY]

best experience with a great group last night. KRRH vs SSR turned out surprising. I wish the krrh was out when I put my car together.
thanks mike for setting up the whole thing and much more. :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:
next is to do the same thing but at the track and see these things hook and book!
:camera:

[b@d @pple]

:thinking:

rep header>all..lol

[chunky]

Glad everything is better now.

New rule though, test cars have to be quiet from now on. That shit was loud.

LOL. how do you think I felt sitting inside the car? There was actually so much vibration from open header that the monitor for the dyno computer cut out once.

Hopefully I'll be back up there before too long to tune my next build. :)

[ejohnson88]

same.

[Da_unknown]

same.this was talking and meeting u yesteray.. guy in the brown

[ejohnson88]

oH UPS guy right? Yeah nice to meet you guys and put faces to names haha!