What is Evil? And does evil exist?

[mastermech]

Ive nearly completed a discourse on the topic of evil and will have it published in the next six to eight months. So I wanted to post a couple questions, and give my answers as well as hear the opinion of others.

What is Evil?

The lack of Good.

And does evil exist?

Absolutely not but, in explanation you can never have good without lacking good at some point-So therefore the appearance of evil is real but its identity is truly false and falsely true.

[StreetHazard]

Any sense of "evil" or "good" depends upon your perception. The same as "right" or "wrong" depends on how you choose to define your morality. These ideals can vary depending upon your society or culture, so how one would define them is left up to the individual to explore.

So I believe the short answer is no

[bu villain]

Good and Evil, Light and Dark, Pleasure and Pain, Yin and Yang. It's called duality. The pair of concepts define each other, they make no sense without their partner. Their usage is all relative as StreetHazard said.

[StreetHazard]

in before

"WELL IN THE BIBLE IT SAYS..........."

[StreetHazard]

Ive nearly completed a discourse on the topic of evil and will have it published in the next six to eight months. So I wanted to post a couple questions, and give my answers as well as hear the opinion of others.

What is Evil?

The lack of Good.

And does evil exist?

Absolutely not but, in explanation you can never have good without lacking good at some point-So therefore the appearance of evil is real but its identity is truly false and falsely true.


I would like to read this "nearly completed a discourse on the topic of evil"

let's see what you came up with, copy and paste it here. or link it to a .pdf

[ShooterMcGavin]

does evil exist? rhetorical question of the yr, thus far.

[Gorilla Eg!]

does evil exist? rhetorical question of the yr, thus far.

x2 its as plain as day and its like asking....if a tree falls in the woods and you arent there, does it make a sound?.....answer is obvious

[geoff]

One does not need to go into the Bible to see what it says about good and evil. Human life is a beautiful thing, the birth of a baby is a beautiful thing, so then, would it be evil or right ( without using your morals ) to go after a newborn child is brought into the world, to go and snatch that child and kill it? The answer is quite simply yes. One does not need to read any book or the Word of God to see this. Evil does exist without good. Evil could simply be defined as any selfish act without concern for the effects it may have on others or the consequenes. Good on the other hand can be defined as any selfless act of charity ( love ) without the expectation of reward. Therefore evil does not need good nor does good need evil for either of these to be present.

I ask you this, if not God, then who or what or how do we as a society know what is good or evil, right or wrong, selfish or selfless? If not because of God, why are we not a selfish society that puts ourselves and our needs first? Where did good and evil come from then if not from God and sin?

[StreetHazard]

One does not need to go into the Bible to see what it says about good and evil. Human life is a beautiful thing, the birth of a baby is a beautiful thing, so then, would it be evil or right ( without using your morals ) to go after a newborn child is brought into the world, to go and snatch that child and kill it? The answer is quite simply yes. One does not need to read any book or the Word of God to see this. Evil does exist without good. Evil could simply be defined as any selfish act without concern for the effects it may have on others or the consequenes. Good on the other hand can be defined as any selfless act of charity ( love ) without the expectation of reward. Therefore evil does not need good nor does good need evil for either of these to be present.

I ask you this, if not God, then who or what or how do we as a society know what is good or evil, right or wrong, selfish or selfless? If not because of God, why are we not a selfish society that puts ourselves and our needs first? Where did good and evil come from then if not from God and sin?


in before

"WELL IN THE BIBLE IT SAYS..........."

You hush and go back to church. "GOD" does not invent these definitions...MAN does, exactly like how man invented your god, gods or goddesses to help (or force) structure his/her societal ideals.

I can give you an example where "baby killing" was never frowned upon but was actually encouraged for societal growth, unity and strength, and to the apparent benefit of the nation for many generations. If they considered it "puny and deformed", the baby was thrown into a chasm on Mount Taygetos also known as the Apothetae or the "Deposits".

"THIS IS SPAAAAAARRRRTA" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDRAhiBtOrQ&NR=1)

Also it seems homosexual pedophilia was a main stay in the Spartan societal structure as well. At the age of twelve, the Spartan state obliged Spartan boys to take an older male mentor, usually an unmarried young man. The older man was expected to function as a kind of substitute father and role model to his junior partner, and teach him the duties of being a spartan man and school him in warfare. However, it is also reasonably certain that they had sexual relations due to "Greek pederasty" being almost cultural in that era.

^ this relationship echoes many in the christian priesthoods still going on today.

The term pederasty derives from the combination of pais (Greek for 'boy') with erastēs (Greek for 'lover'; or eros). Pederasty is closely associated with the customs of athletic and artistic nudity in the gymnasia, delayed marriage for upper-class men (gentlemen), symposia and social seclusion of women. It was also integral to Greek military training, and at times a factor in the deployment of troops.

[geoff]

You still did not answer my questions but instead gave me a bunch of information on homosexual activities.....:thinking: are you trying to come out of the closet or something?:no: lol jk man. Seriously though, think about the things I said. Just because the Spartans only kept babies born with six-packs and killed off the rest, was it right? Who has the authority to decide who lives or dies?

[StreetHazard]

You still did not answer my questions but instead gave me a bunch of information on homosexual activities.....:thinking: are you trying to come out of the closet or something?:no: lol jk man. Seriously though, think about the things I said. Just because the Spartans only kept babies born with six-packs and killed off the rest, was it right? Who has the authority to decide who lives or dies?


I did answer your question, and gave examples, you just lack comprehension. And what if I do take a couple of loads of man batter right to the chin? Or take a veiny cock right up the pooper? ( I ) would have chosen to define my own morality NOT according to a societies ideals or according to a religious dogma. And as we have been seeing lately in our own "culture", homosexuality is losing it's stigma that it used to carry almost on a banner. it is not being considered "evil" but as an accepted lifestyle choice.

Again "MAN" defines his own morality. not god, and the Spartans left it to themselves to decide what was best for their society, what worked for them is now considered blasphemous and "evil". They invented their religion to back up and give an authority to their societal ideals. Like the human sacrifice engaged by ancient Mayans, and fast forward to our modern Abrahamic religion as well. And all of those gods are just as mythological as the one you have chosen to crawl on your knees for.

"For tonight we dine in hell!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Zp-BxLoew&feature=related)

And If I was gay, there would never have been a closet for me to "come out" of. Because I would have smashed it to splinters and burned it for kindling by the time I was 12 years old, I also know that there is nothing wrong with it if that is something a sexually matured adult chooses to pursue. You can call me a "faggot" or a "queer" all you want, all it will do is make you look more like a fucking retard.

And i'm not even gay.

Maybe you should watch this to help feed your paranoia. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5VNe9NTOxA&feature=related)

[StreetHazard]

Evil could simply be defined as any selfish act without concern for the effects it may have on others or the consequenes. Good on the other hand can be defined as any selfless act of charity ( love ) without the expectation of reward. Therefore evil does not need good nor does good need evil for either of these to be present.

I believe in survival and success, however I feel is necessary and within my moral parameters to achieve it. That is "good" in my definition not "evil". Your concept of "good" sounds like weakness and false piety, I do not help anyone that refuses to help themselves or lavish kindness on ingrates, they would sooner be under the heel of my boot. Your definition of "good" leans more closely to what I would define as "evil".

[ISAtlanta300]

, would it be evil or right ( without using your morals ) to go after a newborn child is brought into the world, to go and snatch that child and kill it? The answer is quite simply yes.

Not quite simple. What if you knew that child will be the anti-christ? Or had the premonition to see the child will be the second "Hitler". Will killing it still be 'evil'?

[geoff]

steethazard- Don't get so offended bro lol. It was a simple joke, you sure can throw em out there but can't take them. I too am not up for helping the lazy, even the bible says " those who don't work don't eat". But someone like a widowed mother of 4 or 5 and can't make it on her own, that is someone I would be obligated to help, because of my beliefs and because it is the " right " thing to do.

isatlanta300- Very good question, but once again who is the judge to say when is it right to take someone's life from them? Would it be right to sacrifice one inocent child to save 100 people? What about the child that will never have a chance to live a full life? Our concepts of " good, evil, right, wrong " are all a part of our genetic make up. It is instilled deep inside of us, from whom? I believe Jesus Christ, the One I call my God, for you it may be someone or something else.

[bu villain]

One does not need to go into the Bible to see what it says about good and evil. Human life is a beautiful thing, the birth of a baby is a beautiful thing, so then, would it be evil or right ( without using your morals ) to go after a newborn child is brought into the world, to go and snatch that child and kill it? The answer is quite simply yes. One does not need to read any book or the Word of God to see this. Evil does exist without good. Evil could simply be defined as any selfish act without concern for the effects it may have on others or the consequenes. Good on the other hand can be defined as any selfless act of charity ( love ) without the expectation of reward. Therefore evil does not need good nor does good need evil for either of these to be present.

For anything you consider to be evil I can give you an example of a society from sometime in history where it was not considered evil. Killing a newborn? StreetHazard answered that one.


I ask you this, if not God, then who or what or how do we as a society know what is good or evil, right or wrong, selfish or selfless? If not because of God, why are we not a selfish society that puts ourselves and our needs first? Where did good and evil come from then if not from God and sin?

We know what right and wrong by thinking about the effects and seeing the consequences of a particular rule. Let's say there were no morals to start with, you may try stealing from a neighbor because hey, you want what he has. The next day he steals something from you. Eventually you both may figure out that just agreeing not to steal from eachother would be a lot easier for both of you and thus a moral rule is born. Of course these things take time. Think of how long it took us to agree that slavery was wrong.

[geoff]

Buvillian- You make some pretty good points. But these morals are born in us, maybe not to steal or whatnot but what about murder? Where do we get a conscience if not from God? Where does are fear come from if not from God? How about the feeling of love? Or answer me this scenario, for a moment imagine that you are walking on a dirt path in Africa. You come across a young African boy. He is malnurished, thin as bones, scarred, bruised and beaten and crying. What is it in you that makes you feel compassion on this young boy? Why is it that when you walk by him you stop and something in your heart aches. You can not simply walk by and ignore him. You almost come to tears just seeing the pain in this boy's eyes. Did you learn to feel these things or were you told to feel them? The logical answer is no. These emotions you experience are natural, they are as much a part of you as your central nervous system. So then, was this an evolution or some mutation in a gene that caused you to have these feelings? Once again no. So then how did we get these feelings, someone made us with them, thats how.

[StreetHazard]

Buvillian- You make some pretty good points. But these morals are born in us, maybe not to steal or whatnot but what about murder? Where do we get a conscience if not from God? Where does are fear come from if not from God? How about the feeling of love? Or answer me this scenario, for a moment imagine that you are walking on a dirt path in Africa. You come across a young African boy. He is malnurished, thin as bones, scarred, bruised and beaten and crying. What is it in you that makes you feel compassion on this young boy? Why is it that when you walk by him you stop and something in your heart aches. You can not simply walk by and ignore him. You almost come to tears just seeing the pain in this boy's eyes. Did you learn to feel these things or were you told to feel them? The logical answer is no. These emotions you experience are natural, they are as much a part of you as your central nervous system. So then, was this an evolution or some mutation in a gene that caused you to have these feelings? Once again no. So then how did we get these feelings, someone made us with them, thats how.


ummm.....heh! "compassion" is either a weakness or an asset depending upon your perspective.

for example if I only had a small amount of food and water left from my own travels and I passed that small boy in the road? Would I give everything I have to him, at the possible consequence of my own life in the future? And that desire would be there only as an instinct to protect my own species, like many animals try to do in the wild by sharing and traveling in packs and herds.

tough call....tough call.

"sorry little fella, but your on your own"

But since you so eagerly want to shoehorn this thread into your beliefs, what about (Genesis 22:1-18), the story of Abraham being motivated by "GAWD" to kill his only child.

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." and held a knife to his throat with a full intention of gutting him like a fish.

Where does that fit into your theory about the kindness and benevolence of your sacred deity? Since you are so obviously choosing to feign your altruism by the very nature of your belief.

[geoff]

What you described as weakness because of your own surivival is just sick. If it were me i would give all i had to the little boy, knowing that i am grown and can fend for myself whereas this child could not. As far as your question about the story of Abraham, God did not want Abraham to kill Issac. If He did then God would not have told him to stop. It was a test of faith, God is supposed to be the most important thing in a believer's life. He is to come first before mother,father,siblings, wife/husband, and yes even children. We are supposed to love Him so much that we would leave and forsake all for Him if He asked us to. The wonderful thing about God is that He does not ask us to do it because He knows we couldn't.

[StreetHazard]

Abraham did not hesitate, whether or not "gawd" made him do it or not is irrelevant because he was prepared to do it just on "belief" alone, or on whatever voices I can only imagine were in his head. So he just sacrificed a ram instead which I also thought was cute.

But Jesus did, he gave his own life for your masochistic god, and god gave the lives of others in his name. which I am sure you would not hesitate as well should "the call" ever arise. It would be like a Muslim espousing these same altruistic virtues.

sorry, but I am not buying your phony misguided humanitarian ideals at all. If you were not a christian you might have more credibility.

[bu villain]

Buvillian- You make some pretty good points. But these morals are born in us, maybe not to steal or whatnot but what about murder? Where do we get a conscience if not from God? Where does are fear come from if not from God? How about the feeling of love? Or answer me this scenario, for a moment imagine that you are walking on a dirt path in Africa. You come across a young African boy. He is malnurished, thin as bones, scarred, bruised and beaten and crying. What is it in you that makes you feel compassion on this young boy? Why is it that when you walk by him you stop and something in your heart aches. You can not simply walk by and ignore him. You almost come to tears just seeing the pain in this boy's eyes. Did you learn to feel these things or were you told to feel them? The logical answer is no. These emotions you experience are natural, they are as much a part of you as your central nervous system. So then, was this an evolution or some mutation in a gene that caused you to have these feelings? Once again no. So then how did we get these feelings, someone made us with them, thats how.

Interesting scenario because I have lived it myself when I went to Africa a few years ago. I don't think everyone feels that way when they see such a scenario. Just because something feels wrong to you does not mean it feels wrong to everyone. If we all had the same morals, we would not allow things like genocide to occur. Even within a society morals can vary greatly.

I'm not going to try to answer every question about emotion because I don't know all the answers. That's why my answer is "I don't know" where as your answer is "I know".

[Evil Goat]

yes i exist

/thread

[geoff]

buvillian- My faith leads me to an explanation whereas no other theory/scientific explanation does. Its my belief in God that answers these questions for me.

[BallerDave04]

But since you so eagerly want to shoehorn this thread into your beliefs, what about (Genesis 22:1-18), the story of Abraham being motivated by "GAWD" to kill his only child.

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." and held a knife to his throat with a full intention of gutting him like a fish.

Where does that fit into your theory about the kindness and benevolence of your sacred deity? Since you are so obviously choosing to feign your altruism by the very nature of your belief.

When God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Abraham was willing to do it but knew that God would provide a sacrifice in Isaac's place. Before Abraham even took Isaac up on the mountain he told his servants, "WE shall return." He knew that God was not going to take the promise that He gave to Abraham. There is a lesson built into this story...God ALWAYS fulfills His promises.

You should really know what you are talking about before using Bible references.

KTHAXBI.

[StreetHazard]

When God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Abraham was willing to do it but knew that God would provide a sacrifice in Isaac's place. Before Abraham even took Isaac up on the mountain he told his servants, "WE shall return." He knew that God was not going to take the promise that He gave to Abraham. There is a lesson built into this story...God ALWAYS fulfills His promises.

You should really know what you are talking about before using Bible references.

KTHAXBI.

ohhh so your interpretation actually validates the moral of this story does it? So god told him to kill his own son as some divine hilarious fucking joke according to you?

...It reeks of bullshit that you are obviously used to and cannot smell. Save your preaching for bible study to convince yourself.

[BallerDave04]

ohhh so your interpretation actually validates the moral of this story does it? So god told him to kill his own son as some divine hilarious fucking joke according to you?

...It reeks of bullshit that you are obviously used to and cannot smell. Save your preaching for bible study to convince yourself.

Sorry, but that's what it's about. You are wrong, end of story.

[geoff]

i am curious as to where the op is?

[Aethir X]

Evil is the deprivation of a due good. That is the purest definition, thousands of years old, tried and true. Basically a metaphysical good that should be there which is not, because of the ability and potentiality in the will to choose a lesser good over the higher good, which in turn evil is achieved. But evil has no substance per se, it is not a thing, it has no essence, meaning THAT it is or WHAT it is, it is not something I can touch or pick up or see, it is always a deprivation in an act that should be a higher good. I can touch the dagger which stabs the man who is committing murder, but the dagger itself is not evil, nor is the body of the man evil, but it is the act itself of the man which is deprived of respecting another's life which is the root of the evil, hence the deprivation of him respecting that man's right to live.

The Cartesian understanding of evil, Kant, Hume, Locke, Descartes, is all very new, this whole idea that if I believe something is true, it is true, if I believe it is evil, it is evil, cogito ergo sum if you will. This is an entirely false view of reality. It goes against the law of non-contradiction. The law of non-contradiction is that something cannot both be and not be in the same repsect and in the same manner at the same time in its essence. 2+2 cannot ever equal 3 or 5 the same time it equals 4, if you say it does, you are giving 2 a different value than what it is in its essence, in its very being, the grouping of one and one, if you say it is something else you are living a false reality of warped reasoning. Same goes with let's say a red rose, the rose is always red, but if you say it's black that doesn't mean it's black, it is just that you have labeled it as such and tried to apply your own false perception of the essence of the thing to its essence, when in reality its essence is in the thing itself and cannot change, so even though you call it black, it will always be red. This is the problem with people who say whatever they believe is true is true, that is never the case unless their belief is TRULY in line with the truth. And you cannot know the truth unless you embrace the truth, which is an entire discussion on its own.

Most people don't know these simple philosophical arguments because they have never studied scholastic philosophy or ancient philosophy which is based on knowledge through the senses and metaphysical immaterial realities dealing with the forms, essences, phantasms, goodness, being, oneness, true and their correlations which each other. The "enlightenment" philosophers failed to make these fundamental principles apparent, which is why their systems are so thoroughly entrenched in our society, it caters to the ego instead of what is really the truth in reality.

I hope this helps some people understand just a little why most people's view of reality is wrong. This whole dichotomy of moral relativism all started with the Protestant revolt and the Enlightenment philosophers. I am a traditional Catholic, and have studied master's level philosophy and theology in seminaries, monasteries and universities across the U.S., and I don't need to use scripture to prove what evil is, which is kinda cool, it is not the job of scripture to tell us what evil is per se, although it does, but it is philosophy which is best in order to understand it in a reasonable debate.

[StreetHazard]

now we are getting somewhere

repped :goodjob: for me liking the word "moral relativism" and someone else on here knowing what it means

[geoff]

Aether X- So what then is your idea of truth? Do you believe in a higher power? Is that higher power to you the God of the bible?

[Aethir X]

Like I said, I am a traditional Catholic, so absolutely, if I didn't believe that I would be a pagan vagabond pursuing only my flesh instead of contemplating the truths of eternity and the realities and mysteries of the Trinity. Truth is inseparable from God, because He is truth itself, all that is in creation is a participation in his act of being, the only way we could even exist is if God allowed us to participate in His eternal being.

If you read back to what I said I mentioned something called the transcendentals, there are four in scholastic philosophy which are basically God in his essence to a certain degree, and those four are these: Good, Being, One, True. All those cannot exist without the other, and nothing in reality could exist without the transcendentals, you can look at ANYTHING in reality and apply those four principles and they will have them, that is, except evil, which lacks a due good, hence making it evil, but like I said before, evil has no substance per se, no tangible, sensible being, it is only a deprivation of something that should be there but God has allowed not to be, which is an incredible mystery unto itself.

My idea of truth is not my own, so I would never claim it to be from myself. Truth is that which is Good, that has oneness, that is, that is beautiful. I would never call murder any of those things, and if anyone called murder beautiful would be a liar. Truth is also revealed by God through revelation, but also through nature, namely what I am somewhat explaining to you here, what we call Natural Philosophy, or the Philosophy of Nature, that is, whatever can be contemplated without the aid of revelation from God. Natural Philosophy is what was achieved by certain philosophers such as Aristotle and Plato to name a couple. Although they had a few things wrong, thankfully Our Lord revealed what those errors were through the Church and saints who contemplated these truths and questions on nature and reality, but Aristotle and Plato were right about an enormous amount of things in reality. But they are scoffed at these days in academia because they are not moral relativists and do not support the liberal agenda. In their time to say that one person decided what was true or what was good and evil was complete and utter lunacy, as it still is to this day, but unfortunately it is just widely accepted in academia these days, that is the only reason, you can thank the "enlightenment" and Protestant reformation for a lot of the moral relativism we have today. It was their erroneous philosophy that seeped into the minds of professors and academics. Such public denial of the truths of sin and evil never existed on a scale in previous centuries as they do today, and if people were debaucherous in earlier centuries before the reformation and "enlightenment" it was because they just didn't care, not because they thought they were right about everything, they just didn't care because you find no sort of moral relativism as we have today in any writings from anyone before the mid 1500's.

It would take awhile to explain more in depth the nature of truth because I would have to use a lot of philosophical terms you may or may not be familiar with because academically it is a complex subject if you went into it in detail, but simply, in its very nature, God is truth and God is good, one and is. That is why He called Himself: I am Who am. Perfect. True. Beautiful.

[geoff]

I can agree with you brother. One has to look no further than nature itself to see beauty and good. You seem like an intelligent person, so why then do you claim to be part of organized religion? The Church is not a building or an idea or even a place, but it is in fact those that are baptized into the body of Christ. You believe in Oneness yet you listed the Trinity? What are your personal views on the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? As a believer I would assume it is safe to say you believe in recieving salvation from the Lord, how do you personally believe one recieves it? Just trying to see the different ideologies and theological beliefs amongst the believers here.

[Aethir X]

Very interesting you ask me why I am part of an organized religion, well because it is the only religion truly revealed by God, that is, the Catholic faith, any other religion is either a pagan religion, a heresy of the Catholic religion, or a religion that is monotheistic but contains errors in its teaching. Everyone has their own religion whether they think they do or not, it is natural for man to exalt thing outside himself and put them on a pedestal and worship it because he was made to love and serve God, but when he deviates from God he must worship something else, even atheists worship their own false reasoning above God, that is their religion. Another example is why was God angered with those who worshiped the golden calf? simply because it is not the true God and is not due worship because it is a creature. This is all pretty obvious 1st commandment stuff.

If you believe Our Lord Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man then he cannot speak a lie. He founded the church on St. Peter and the apostles and their successors. The traditions of the faith, and scripture, the writings of the saints are all part of the true faith. If God established a church on earth, which He did, through the apostles and St. Peter, then that Church cannot speak error on matters of faith and morals, it is simply impossible, and if one of its members did, they would not be speaking in the name of the true Church.


The Church is not a building or an idea or even a place, but it is in fact those that are baptized into the body of Christ. You believe in Oneness yet you listed the Trinity

The Church is not a building or an idea or a place per se, but it has a visible structure and hierarchy, which is necessary in order that man understand the power of authority and to participate in the sacramental life given to it by God. You can be baptized and not be in the Church, a latae sententiae excommunicatio, because you hold to false ideas which are against the deposit of faith which Christ reveals through the true faithful, that is whenever the successor of St. Peter speaks in union with all the bishops of the church and solemnly proclaims something to be held by the faithful, this has been going on since the 1st century of the church, and anyone who denies the traditions of the early church in union with the Catholic faith is putting their salvation at risk. Christianity is not a cafeteria, one does not get to pick and choose what they do and do not like, it is all or nothing, embrace Christ and the traditions which were taught by him and the apostles, or put your eternal salvation at risk, and these traditions are only found in the Catholic faith, we can trace every priest and every bishop back to St. Peter and the apostles.

Of course I believe in oneness and the Trinity they are not separate. You have a mother, father and child of a family, and call them a family. You have mind, spirit, and will, those are three yet one in soul. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three persons, one God. I cannot ever claim to understand the eternal depths of the Most Blessed Trinity. Our Lord Jesus Christ once appeared to St. Augustine because Augustine was laboring extremely hard with trying to understand the Trinity and Our Lord brought him to a beach and had him dig a hole in the sand then walk over to the ocean and fill up the bucket then go back to the hole and put water in it over and over, even after the hole he dug was overflowing. St. Augustine then asked Our Lord what was the meaning of this. Our Lord told him that the sea was like the Trinity and the hole was our capacity to understand as creatures, we can only fill ourselves with so much knowledge of God at one time because we are not eternal as God is, only God can know Himself as he knows Himself. We can know God, but only according to our nature and what God allows us to know about Him. So, I hope that helps. This is why holding the true faith is so important.


What are your personal views on the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

I do not have any, I believe what the Catholic faith has said about the Trinity throughout the ages. I usually refer to St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, Pseudo-Dionysius, St. John of the Cross, St. Gregory the Great, St. Bernard, St. Anselm, All the Council documents of each ecumenical council that defined dogma and condemned error, St. Pius X, St. Pius V, Patrologiae Latinae, Patrologiae Graeca, there are so many resources on this that it would take 10 lifetimes to begin to make a dent in studying it, but to put it simply, I believe what the Catholic faith has taught for 2,000 years. The Nicene Creed is good in understanding what the Trinity is in a very simple manner, so I would start from there. Also the Last Gospel is good, namely, the first chapter of the Gospel of John.


As a believer I would assume it is safe to say you believe in recieving salvation from the Lord, how do you personally believe one recieves it?

I believe one receives it through Jesus Christ in the Catholic faith by means of grace and works. Faith without works is dead. I believe in keeping the precepts of the church in order to attain salvation because without the support of the church, the true church, her traditions, her saints, her teachings, I am like a blind man and cannot see where I am going. How anyone can claim to interpret scripture and Christianity on a personal basis is beyond me and to be honest, very scary. Without the indefectability of the true faith promised to us by God in Jesus Christ, we are like lambs being led to the slaughter because we open ourselves up to way, WAY to much error, especially since we are sinful because of original sin, we obviously have this tendency to want to do things our way instead of conforming ourselves to the cross of Jesus Christ in the faith He has revealed to us. Just look at how many different Protestant Churches there are 35,000+ and growing every day in the U.S., truly all that division is not what God intended, God is one. One Lord, One Faith (not 35,000), One Baptism.

I would like also to say one last thing, the Catholic Church put the bible together, you can look that up anywhere, so if you read it, you are accepting that the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret and determine which books of scripture went into the bible. :)

I hope that helps, feel free to PM me if you have any personal questions.

[StreetHazard]

:goodjob:

[geoff]

I may be confused as to some things the catholic church practices, but how is it that one can go a confess their sins to a priest and he blesses them and gives them absolution? what about being infilled with the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, healing, ect...do you believe in any of that? I guess i could consider myself penocostal/apostolic. I attend a church where we teach biblical truth and nothing else, we follow closely the practices of Christ and the apostles, we believe in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, we believe the name of God is Jesus. what are your thoughts on this? am i going to hell because im not catholic?

[Aethir X]

Well, the apostles were bishops and they ordained priests, that's what bishops do, they ordain priests, the visible hierarchy of the true Church. Christ instituted the sacrament of confession so that man can renew the grace he received in baptism in case he has committed a mortal sin, that is, a sin which brings death to the soul, like lust or willful murder. Confession is an amazing, incredible, beautiful gift. When I go to confession, I have the absolute certitude that my sins are forgiven by God because I have made a good confession, and the priest will affirm that by either denying or giving me absolution. The priest is another persona Christi if you will, given the power to bind and loose as Christ gave to the bishops and priests of the Church in the gospel of Matthew 16:18, and again I think in chapter 18, I would have to look it up, but even quoting scripture doesn't matter because the church always had this sacrament before scripture was codified in the early 5th century. What I honestly don't understand is why people think they can just ask God to forgive them and claim he does, you have no absolute way of knowing whether or not God has forgiven you, that is why God gave the church the sacrament of Confession, so that we have moral certitude we are in a state of grace, as Catholics call it. The state of grace is that you have the supernatural life of grace in your soul, the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in your soul, when you commit a mortal sin, such as lust, murder, worshiping false gods, you drive out the indwelling of the Trinity and God cannot reside anywhere supernaturally that is openly living in a sin which is entirely opposed to Him, that is why if we repent for our sins and go to confession and are given absolution, we can have that supernatural grace once again that we may have lost after baptism or committing a mortal sin.


what about being infilled with the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, healing, ect...do you believe in any of that? I guess i could consider myself penocostal/apostolic.

Those are all gifts of the Holy Ghost, but mindless babble that people call tongues these days are not from God. The traditional understanding of tongues is that super natural grace that each hears the preaching of a certain saint in their own language even though that saint may be speaking in a language that is their own and not indigenous to that place, but God supplies a miracle of grace for the listener to understand through that person the words of the saint preaching. All this mindless, silly rolling of tongues and incoherent babbling is not the work of God that occurs in most Protestant sects, and it is very scary that people believe it is from God. Any simple research of the history of speaking in tongues from the saints will entirely debunk that. I believe in the gifts of healing, but healing in the sense that is from God. God does not allow a previous ailment to return once that person has been healed of that ailment, that is a true miracle of healing. These days the devil is deceiving people greatly through Protestant sects with faux gifts of healing by curing someone for a short time then letting the ailment return, that is not true healing, the devil does that for show and hysteria and to deceive people that these false prophets are true ones, which is obviously not the case. True healing is done by saints, living, or in heaven.


I guess i could consider myself penocostal/apostolic. I attend a church where we teach biblical truth and nothing else, we follow closely the practices of Christ and the apostles, we believe in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, we believe the name of God is Jesus. what are your thoughts on this? am i going to hell because im not catholic?

Well, I will be honest with you, you are in a false religion. Protestantism is exactly that, a protest against the Catholic Church, and was created by Martin Luther in the 1500's and spawned into 35,000 different sects. You say you attend a church that teaches biblical truth, but what is biblical truth? Biblical truth is not anyone's or any pastor's personal interpretation of scripture, you have to ask yourself, why are the Pentecostals right and not the Catholics, Baptists, Church of Christ, Lutherans, etc. ad nauseam. The answer is obvious, they are not right, there is only one true church, it is the church that was founded by Jesus Christ on the rock of St. Peter and his successors (Matt 16:18-19). Christ gave St. Peter and his successors the keys to the kingdom of heaven, not pastor jim or pastor bob, or elder bubba. Unfortunately, your church does not follow closely the practices of Christ and the apostles because it does not have all the sacraments that they practiced or administered, history affirms this, it is very easy to look it up in any non-liberal historical work. It is amazing how quickly people are willing to pick and choose arguments instead of embracing what is obvious, just like I said before, the Catholic Church gave you the canon of scripture, so you are already affirming a Catholic belief by accepting that scripture as from God. Well who decided that the canon of scripture you read is from God? It was the Catholic Church, not the Pentecostals or Baptists or Lutherans.

Ask yourself, are the Pentecostals the true churh of Jesus Christ? Can I study the writings of the early church fathers and saints and will they say that the one true church is the Pentecostal church, absolutely, unequivocally not. You must look at Christianity outside of what you may be used to to understand where I am going with this. Historical context and tradition is vitally important to understand Christianity because tradition points to the Catholic Church and the priesthood, which all the apostles were, priests, who said the mass, heard confessions, did the same thing that Catholics do today, and will continue to do until the end of time. Please do not mistake me to be condescending or rash in my arguments, but I am simply speaking the truth about Protesantism, which is hard to hear for some people because it means embracing the Cross of Christ in a way they are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with, but Christ Himself said it must be so and that they would persecute you for it.


am i going to hell because im not catholic?

Well, now that you know the Catholic Church is the true church, and I urge you to really, honestly, and prayerfully study all the things I have mentioned, especially those saints I mentioned in my previous post. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (outside the church, there is no salvation). In order to be saved one must profess and believe the true faith, and there is only one. Unam Sanctam Catholicam et Apostolicam Ecclesiam. Or in other words, yes, now that you know.

Gloria Patri Et Filio et Spiritui Sancto, sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,

Malcolm

[StreetHazard]

Yea Geoff, think about it. Hell is a terrible place you should fear, you better sign up to be a choir boy or something, and start making a list for confessional. And you being a Baptist should be #1 on that list.

(ohhh yea, and remember to keep your pants on and don't bend over)

[geoff]

Well my friend it was nice to see someone else on here that had respect for Christ, BUT and a big one, your ideology on the catholic church being the right one is well, wrong. Christ did not found the church on St. Peter, He founded the church on Himself and the revelation that He was the Christ and Messiah. In fact, before the apostles and others were gathered into the upper room and the Holy Ghost fell on them, there was no church, just a mass of followers. And second, if you read correctly, St. Peter was not the leader of the church. He was one of the elders and the one responsible for bringing truth to the jews. Paul was the one responsible for bringing truth to the gentiles. He could be considered the one that started the Christian movement throughout the known world at the time. He even preached to the romans who eventually believed and started the Catholic church. I am sorry but in no way shape or form is the Catholic church the way to salvation. A PERSONAL relationship is. Third, no one and i mean NO ONE on earth has the power to give absolution. The blood Jesus shed on calvary is the forgiveness of sins, we are to repent and ask forgiveness and turn away from that sin. The Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer allows him to live a clean and righteous life. The Catholic church may have been the first major business function called " church " but the apostolic movenment was the FIRST church and the only body of Christ. There is only ONE true doctrine and that is the one taught by Christ, not some corrupted, scandalizing, false catholic church. The catholic church is set up of corruptness that makes the Lord ashamed that they claim His name. You all pray to the saints and worship the pope as if he were Christ. My friend there is only ONE AUTHORITY to which a believer is to bow down and obey, Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God. Please do not take this offensively, I am just tired of the devil spreading False doctrine. if you wish to have a real talk give me a call, i can pm you my number.

by the way, i invite you to a service at my church, then you can tell me if God is in that place or not.

[bu villain]

Ooh something new! Usually all we get to see is atheism vs deism.

[StreetHazard]

I think Geoff needs to stop being so rebellious against god and consider this, I mean...

"what if your wrong" Geoff?

Then you will end up in the fiery pits of Hades, and I know you don't want that!

[Aethir X]

What part of "Upon this rock, Peter, I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against. And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:18) Do you not understand? Yes, Christ is the Church but he gave the authority to Peter (Our Lord says it right there) and his successors to carry on the truths of the faith after he ascended in heaven, and if you disagree that is not my fault, but your lack of faith in what Christ has said.

You say there was no church before the Holy Ghost fell upon Mary and the Apostles, which is true, because they did not start to publicly go out until after that, but Christ said Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH. What do you not understand about that? It is plain as day. So simple.


St. Peter was not the leader of the church. He was one of the elders and the one responsible for bringing truth to the Jews. Paul was the one responsible for bringing truth to the gentiles. He could be considered the one that started the Christian movement throughout the known world at the time. He even preached to the romans who eventually believed and started the Catholic church. I am sorry but in no way shape or form is the Catholic church the way to salvation.

Upon this rock Peter I will build my church. Sounds like he's the leader to me, seeing as how Christ gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and not the other apostles. If you read early church documents, they all refer to the bishop of Rome as the head of the visible church on earth. Jesus Christ started Christianity not St. Paul. The romans did not eventually start the Catholic Church, you should read the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch who was a bishop ordained by the apostles, he called the church Catholic before even all the apostles were dead.

I am sorry you choose to ignore my previous arguments about why it is the true faith and just dismiss it as not being the true church, that is the saddest part. If you were humble and studied the truth of the faith and its historical context you would see the truth I am speaking of.


A PERSONAL relationship is. Third, no one and i mean NO ONE on earth has the power to give absolution. The blood Jesus shed on calvary is the forgiveness of sins, we are to repent and ask forgiveness and turn away from that sin. The Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer allows him to live a clean and righteous life. The Catholic church may have been the first major business function called " church " but the apostolic movenment was the FIRST church and the only body of Christ. There is only ONE true doctrine and that is the one taught by Christ, not some corrupted, scandalizing, false catholic church.

This is just sheer ignorance. No where anywhere in scripture does it say that "a personal relationship with Christ is the only means to salvation." Not one place does it say that. Nor does scripture say that scripture is the only authority of Christianity. Priests have the authority to forgive sins, just as the apostles did, if you don't think that is the case then you need to go read some history books because the apostles heard confessions and so did the priests and bishops they ordained, any other position is just a lie, flat out. The teaching of the Catholic Church is not corrupted, so if you can show me where it is, I will be glad to debunk the Satanic lie about it. The Catholic Church is the only true church, there is no other. You have to separate the sins of those in the church from its teaching in order to understand.


The catholic church is set up of corruptness that makes the Lord ashamed that they claim His name. You all pray to the saints and worship the pope as if he were Christ. My friend there is only ONE AUTHORITY to which a believer is to bow down and obey, Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God. Please do not take this offensively, I am just tired of the devil spreading False doctrine. if you wish to have a real talk give me a call, i can pm you my number.

by the way, i invite you to a service at my church, then you can tell me if God is in that place or not.

The Lord is ashamed by some members of the Catholic Church, of course, they are sinful men, no one in their right mind can deny it, but the doctrine of the Catholic faith will stand forever because it is the only true doctrine revealed by Christ through the Church he founded on St. Peter and the apostles. You're right I do pray to the saints that they may intercede at the throne of the Lamb in heaven and pray for me to God that I may attain salvation, no where in scripture or tradition does it say I worship them as God, in fact, scripture affirms that it is a holy thing to ask the saints to pray for us. I also do not worship the pope, but I believe he is the successor of St. Peter, since we can trace every pope back to St. Peter. The pope is a bishop, he is not God. I do not worship him.

You are right there is only one authority, Jesus Christ, whom I obey by obeying his Church which he founded on the rock of St. Peter, who speaks in His name, as Christ told them to do so, whoever hears you hears me, as he told the apostles, and whom the apostles told to their successors.

I would love to talk, but I would never go to a place of heretical worship, that is a mortal sin, and God does not dwell there because the mass is not said there. Please pm me if you would like to talk sometime.

[StreetHazard]

Noooo! don't go! you can't go!

You two unwittingly have filled my life with glee and joy if only for a brief moment!

please stay!

[geoff]

1) Your " church " has fallen victim to the bible buffet syndrome my friend. Read matthew 16:13-17 aswell for the complete meaning. The revelation that Jesus is the Christ prophesied of in the old testament is what the church was built on, as psalm 118:22 states " The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." The Jews', Gods' own chosen people rejected their Messiah. Christ is the head, not Peter. Christ is the author and Peter was just a pen, a tool used to accomplish Gods' will. And their is no power given to ANY man on earth, it is ONLY by the name of Jesus that these things take place. "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." mark 16:17-18

2) There is no one right church, either you follow the teachings of Christ and follow the biblical means of obtaining salvation or you don't. The " church " Jesus is coming back for is the body of Christ. Simple, every other institution will perish.

3) Nowhere does it say in scripture that a personal relationship is what is needed for salvation? Not once you say? This.."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." phillipians 2:12-16

4) You have to seperate the church from the sin in it? Um no, deacons, bishops, ect...are to live and lead by example. When the catholic church hides and denies aligations of sexual misconduct in their order then they are guilty aswell. CORRUPT and brings shame to the name of Jesus. The catholic church has become the laughing stock of the world, they used to be respected but now that they got all the filth out in the light, you see what false doctrine leads to.

5)Im sorry but the Apostles are rolling in their graves as you type, your spitting poison out my friend that you have been coaxed into believing. The ONLY True doctrine revealed by Christ lies in the New Testament, not some teaching by a catholic pope. You pray to the saints to intercede to the Lamb in heaven? This.."For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1timothy 2:5

6) Scripture says to have the elders to lay hands on you and pray over you, not pray for you. Heretic worship? My friend, I pray that the Holy Ghost would fill you and reveal truth to you and not some man. Is the pope filled with the Holy Spirit? Did once in the bible, Jesus tell the apostles to forgive sins? Did they even do it? NO, NO, and NO. They were instructed to teach the gospel, if the people repented of their sins and prayed GOD would forgive them then the apostles were to baptize believers in the name of Jesus ( not Father, Son, and Holy Ghost ), and then God would seal them with the promise of the Holy Ghost. That is the ONLY truth contained in the bible.

To those of you viewing this thread. I am not bashing this guy's beliefs. It is simply and plainly false doctrine. Jesus said well when He told the disciples,
"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." and " And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." matthew 24:5&11
There is only ONE TRUTH, ONE FAITH, ONE LORD.... Jesus Christ, God of the old and new testament, Creator, Author and finisher of our faith, Alpha and Omega, the only truth and the way.

[Aethir X]

Ok, you haven't even listened to one word I said, and if you had, you would realize the grave error that you are in. I have read all of your arguments before, and the saints and doctors of the church have dealt with them by Protestants for 500 years, so it is nothing new to us. You are contradicting yourself, and you are working against the law of non-contradiction, and you fail to see it when it is staring you blindly in the face.

1) I never said Christ wasn't the head of the Church, I said Peter was Christ's representative, his visible head of the church on earth, not the church triumphant, there is a difference. And yes, there is power given, "I give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, whatsoever thou shalt bind...etc." You can't convince me otherwise, it is obvious you do not understand Matthew 16, otherwise you would not be saying these contradictory things, Christ gave them the power to bind and loose, it is so clear it is amazing to me you would say otherwise. Quoting Matthew at the end of your first paragraph goes against nothing I said, nor contradicts the Catholic faith, all priests speak only with the authority given to them by Jesus Christ and their apostolic succession, no good priest would claim otherwise. So your first argument is now rendered void.

2) Like I have said before, you are ignoring my previous arguments. There is only one true faith, and it is not based on an individuals personal interpretation of what Christianity or the Bible says. No where in the bible does it say that the bible is the sole authority of Christianity, this is the second time I have said this. You have yet again failed to realize that the Catholic Church put the canon of scripture together, which I have mentioned three times before but you have chosen to ignore every time I have said it, which really shows me that you do not want to hear the truth about your false Protestant sect because it means you would have to take up your cross. Since St. Paul tells us in 2 Thess 2:14 "Hold fast to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or by letter." What traditions is St. Paul telling us to hold to? Obviously there is sacred traditions which were taught since scripture would not even be codified until 400 years after St. Paul wrote this. The traditions are the priesthood, the sacraments, the liturgy, and other teachings which are not mentioned in scripture, any other interpretation is false. You cannot look at scripture in a vacuum geoff.

3) Yeah, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, that's right, but that doesn't say anywhere reject the traditions handed down to you from the apostles does it? Nope. Neither does it say all you have to do is read the bible and you'll go to heaven does it? Nope. And it doesn't say that just talking to Jesus in prayer is good enough either, you have to do what the church commands because your salvation depends on it, and scripture is just one part of the sacredness of the faith, it is not the whole faith.

4)Um yes, you do. A priest being a pedophile in private has absolutely zero to do with the teachings of the church, the Church has always and will always teach that pedophilia is wrong, but unfortunately we have some bad men in the church, just like in every religion. The teachings are pure, the men in it are not, if you expect every man in the Catholic Church to be perfect then you do not understand Christianity at all. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, just like you quoted. Doctrine is eternal, men are subject to change, but Christ promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against the church, meaning, its doctrine will always be preserved from error even those its members may be sinners. Is that hard for you to understand?

5) That's right, one mediator between God and Man, Jesus Christ, who we are all members of. You don't think the saints in heaven are members of the Body of Christ? They are in heaven, they are baptized, they are members of the body of Christ, therefore the can mediate because they are supernaturally a part of Jesus Christ. That is simple theology. The true doctrine of Christ lies not only in scripture, but also in tradition just as scripture affirms. The Catholic Church put scripture together, what did the church do for 400 years before the Bible? Obviously it existed with the traditions and letters written to the churches which different bishops and priests founded. History affirms this so many times it is unbelievable to me that you deny it, see, this is why I do not understand Protestants, it is about picking and choosing what is to be believed instead of embracing everything in its proper context, history, tradition, scripture, it all points to one place, the Catholic Church, any other view is from Satan.

6) Actually Christ did tell the apostles to forgive sins: John 21 "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." Yeah, there Our Lord said it, so Yes, Yes, and Yes. He gave them the authority. If Christ did not want them to forgive sins by hearing confessions he would never have done this. So what you said in paragraph six about that being the only truth in the Bible is absurd, why do you keep placing the Bible above history and tradition, they must work together in order to understand the context of the true faith. Sola Scriptura is a dead and evil belief, why do you cling to it?

No one in the Catholic Church who is sane would ever call themselves Christ, to do so would be the height of blasphemy. You're right many false prophets shall arise, claiming that the Bible is the only authority of Christianity, which you are doing, and which scripture itself speaks against.

One Faith, that's right, not 35,000+ different Protestant sects, not to mention those sitting in their houses trying to interpret scripture for themselves because they are "non-denominational," all claiming to hold the truth when they cannot historically or traditionally trace their lineage or documents back to the first apostles as the Catholic faith has done for thousands of years with the sacraments, priesthood and authority given to it by Christ.

[Aethir X]

Hoc est enim corpus meum. Hic est enim calix sanguinis mei.

http://dotnettemplar.net/blogfiles/LatinMassinPrincetonNewJerseyArea_145D8/Mass.jpg

[StreetHazard]

You two make me el oh fucking el! yep:goodjob:

Baptists vs. Catholics....wow! I had almost given up on this forum.

[geoff]

I will not put down or denounce your faith, it is not scriptual nor right. But to each his own. i would still like to talk to you over the phone. 678-832-3871

[StreetHazard]

I will not put down or denounce your faith, it is not scriptual nor right. But to each his own. i would still like to talk to you over the phone. 678-832-3871

then let me cut in....

While you are gloriously esposing the "truth" of the catholic faith, and attempting to defend the actions of only a few rogue pedofiles and a policy of your holy temple covering up their actions so as not to bring shame upon your pristine house of god. We also have their history of repression and violence to contend with that doesn't at all walk hand in hand with your sacred St. Paul or St. Peter. They have gathered so much wealth through acts of terrorism to supplant these said "Protestant Churches" that are 35,000+ and growing every day in the U.S., which all that division is not what God intended, God is one. One Lord, One Faith" would make the churches pocketbook and political power base feel that much more empty indeed wouldn't it? And all out warfare on other faiths. The atrocities committed by the catholic church against humanity are legendary.

Catholicism may be the most destructive out of all of the christian faiths, but at this point it would almost be like splitting hairs.

[Aethir X]

LOL wow, you think Catholicism is destructive you obviously have never read a history book that doesn't have a bias against us. Catholicism built Europe and western civilization. Without it everyone would still be worshiping the trees.

I'm not really sure what "oppression" you are referring to, the Church only wishes to repress errors, evils, and poverty anything else that is done in the name of the Church is not truly the Church acting. I think you fail to realize that the Catholic Church has always and will always be the most charitable organization on earth and has done more for poverty, children, the infirm, uneducated and building civilization for people than any other religion in the history of mankind, so to say we oppress people is disgusting to me, Christ does not teach oppression, he teaches charity, so to say that the Church teaches oppression or oppresses people is insulting.

Gathered wealth through acts of terrorism? I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but I assume you are referring to Cortez or the Crusades, both of which have been painted as horribly evil by the liberal media and adding so called "facts" which are not even true. Spain's conquest of the Americas is not the Church by the way, you have to differentiate. And the Crusades were meant to take back the territories that the Muslims stole from the Christians, so we were defending our rightful land.

We don't need wealth to supplant Protestantism, it will destroy itself because of it's inherent contradiction, it is not of God, therefore it is doomed to failure.

I'm really having trouble understanding what atrocities you are referring to, the church has never taught the oppression of people, if anything the church has destroyed oppression, the Protestants were the one's who murdered Catholics in Europe not the other way around. The Protestants were the ones who murdered Catholics for practicing the faith in Maryland. The Catholic Church's teachings are separate from the individual sinful men who happen to be a part of it, this distinction is critical. So if we are going to start talking about the sins of others, which is pointless, we need to clarify that the Catholic Church's teachings are something separate from the men who claim to be Catholic and speak in the name of the church, when often they actually do not speak in her name.

The only destruction that is caused is caused by the sins of men, which are separate from the teachings of the church, so instead of pointing fingers at all the sins of certain men, why don't you look at the glory of the saints and the great deeds of charity they have done by living the true gospel.

[Aethir X]

I'm gonna go ahead and walk away from this thread, I believe I have sufficiently answered all the questions with clarity.

Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!

[geoff]

Just did s brief search on the history of the Catholic church....so many meetings to get their doctrine and story straight...I do not support the idea of false organized religion. I really dont believe in a denomination, but the apostolic church, which follows to the " T " the apostolic movement in the 1st century and teaches holiness living and the bible as the infallible word of God is the one i choose to call myself by. we are followers of our Lord and Christ.

[StreetHazard]

lulz!

[sport_122]

Evil is the deprivation of a due good. That is the purest definition, thousands of years old, tried and true. Basically a metaphysical good that should be there which is not, because of the ability and potentiality in the will to choose a lesser good over the higher good, which in turn evil is achieved. But evil has no substance per se, it is not a thing, it has no essence, meaning THAT it is or WHAT it is, it is not something I can touch or pick up or see, it is always a deprivation in an act that should be a higher good. I can touch the dagger which stabs the man who is committing murder, but the dagger itself is not evil, nor is the body of the man evil, but it is the act itself of the man which is deprived of respecting another's life which is the root of the evil, hence the deprivation of him respecting that man's right to live.

The Cartesian understanding of evil, Kant, Hume, Locke, Descartes, is all very new, this whole idea that if I believe something is true, it is true, if I believe it is evil, it is evil, cogito ergo sum if you will. This is an entirely false view of reality. It goes against the law of non-contradiction. The law of non-contradiction is that something cannot both be and not be in the same repsect and in the same manner at the same time in its essence. 2+2 cannot ever equal 3 or 5 the same time it equals 4, if you say it does, you are giving 2 a different value than what it is in its essence, in its very being, the grouping of one and one, if you say it is something else you are living a false reality of warped reasoning. Same goes with let's say a red rose, the rose is always red, but if you say it's black that doesn't mean it's black, it is just that you have labeled it as such and tried to apply your own false perception of the essence of the thing to its essence, when in reality its essence is in the thing itself and cannot change, so even though you call it black, it will always be red. This is the problem with people who say whatever they believe is true is true, that is never the case unless their belief is TRULY in line with the truth. And you cannot know the truth unless you embrace the truth, which is an entire discussion on its own.

Most people don't know these simple philosophical arguments because they have never studied scholastic philosophy or ancient philosophy which is based on knowledge through the senses and metaphysical immaterial realities dealing with the forms, essences, phantasms, goodness, being, oneness, true and their correlations which each other. The "enlightenment" philosophers failed to make these fundamental principles apparent, which is why their systems are so thoroughly entrenched in our society, it caters to the ego instead of what is really the truth in reality.

I hope this helps some people understand just a little why most people's view of reality is wrong. This whole dichotomy of moral relativism all started with the Protestant revolt and the Enlightenment philosophers. I am a traditional Catholic, and have studied master's level philosophy and theology in seminaries, monasteries and universities across the U.S., and I don't need to use scripture to prove what evil is, which is kinda cool, it is not the job of scripture to tell us what evil is per se, although it does, but it is philosophy which is best in order to understand it in a reasonable debate.

I am so happy that you wrote this. I mostly agree with you.

I do think as believers our world view on this has to go back to God. We walk a fine line if we try to define evil apart from good and we open the door for the relativism. Nowhere else, except through the accounts written in scripture do we get a definitive understanding of all parts our nature. We don't get the truths like proverbs, denouncing our most righteous acts or Christ stating that there is none who is good save for one. These are very important grounds to be laid in the definition as they put everything in our current world into perspective as we can understand evil ONLY in light of God who is good. I would say this is what is demonstrated in the Eden account. Only in the presence and under the law of God were men able to understand evil.

Also, moral relativism was big before the Reformation. I can't give Luther that much credit because all he did was set the stage for a greater understanding of grace as taught in scripture. In fact the reformation was started by people who wanted to remove the hierarchical relativism and simply say "hey, we are ALL evil and must have grace in order to commune with God". I would argue that the reason you didn't see more of it was that the church was so dominant. The evidence is in how quickly the reformation took hold demonstrates something that was there under the surface for a long time. The Pope ran the show and nobody would want to threaten his authority because you could be excommunicated and this had drastic results in most agrarian societies. It was a living death sentence (case in point, Luther).

The greek and roman pantheon was a demonstration of this relativism. A god who would punish you for this act, and another god who would encourage you toward this act, therefore in some societies god A was more popular than god B. Its dichotomy is even demonstrated in the bible from the first century. In studying the relationships between Paul and Peter and the orthodox Jewish Christians and the gentile Christians this was one of the issues they had. The orthodox jewish christians wanted the gentiles to conform to their traditions yet the Pauline churches did not need to and this caused some strife. The jewish tradition was completely different from what would form itself into the Catholic church (by catholic, i mean christian). So even in that since, we still have the same separation today. This is all budding from the difference in morality between the Jews and the Gentiles who would both become followers in Christ.

Now I would have to agree that the age of Enlightenment did increase the inward focus on good vs evil, only aiding in turning ridiculous people into even more ridiculous people. but I think we could look at this as a compiled theory structure and see that its mostly the same thing that happens on this forum. The people who said something that seemed popular at the time, became the foundation for the next generations of thought, no matter how wrong they were. And much like the scientific, religious, and government communities of our world today, changing from the popular thought is met with much grief. It is much simpler for people to just jump on the bandwagon.

[sport_122]

Just did s brief search on the history of the Catholic church....so many meetings to get their doctrine and story straight...I do not support the idea of false organized religion. I really dont believe in a denomination, but the apostolic church, which follows to the " T " the apostolic movement in the 1st century and teaches holiness living and the bible as the infallible word of God is the one i choose to call myself by. we are followers of our Lord and Christ.

sorry geoff.

No organization administered by men does it right. Not my church, not yours. Not the doctrines in the Catholic sect or the protestant sects. One thing I do believe is that based on our theologies, our lives, and the way we understand God, we all have it wrong in someway. Yes I think some are closer, but nobody's got it right. The men who walked with Christ didn't get it right while they were with Christ. That's the point of grace. I believe that is the only way we have to function. To know that we are broken, and that we need grace, not just for the bad that we do, but for the good that we think we do as well.

[geoff]

I know that no one is righteous and that are righteousness is like filthy rags. But as far as living holiness ( in the world not of it ) and teaching the scriptures as the true infallible word of God, and following it the best we can, and knowing that we are saved by grace and that Christ is the only truth, the way, and the life. That was my point. By the way, I thank my Lord for dying on the cross for me 2000 years ago, if not for Him I would be lost. We are all saved by His blood and mercy.

[JDM onlyy]

And the Crusades were meant to take back the territories that the Muslims stole from the Christians, so we were defending our rightful land.


Isn't it like everyone's Holy Land? I was just curious because everyone seems to want it so bad because its their sacred land right? Why is one religion more entitled to it than the other? Didn't your mothers ever teach you to share?

[JDM onlyy]

I know that no one is righteous and that are righteousness is like filthy rags. But as far as living holiness ( in the world not of it ) and teaching the scriptures as the true infallible word of God, and following it the best we can, and knowing that we are saved by grace and that Christ is the only truth, the way, and the life. That was my point. By the way, I thank my Lord for dying on the cross for me 2000 years ago, if not for Him I would be lost. We are all saved by His blood and mercy.

I don't know why, but every time you post, it makes me want to worship the devil.... :no: And I'm really against that!!!!

[StreetHazard]

I don't know why, but every time you post, it makes me want to worship the devil.... :no: And I'm really against that!!!!


Nothing says "fuck you" more than throwing up the horned fingers over your head and praising the funky goat.

I would never try to talk you out it.

[JDM onlyy]

Nothing says "fuck you" more than throwing up the horned fingers over your head and praising the funky goat.

I would never try to talk you out it.

LOL at calling Satan a funky goat! But seriously, whenever Geoff posts, it just makes me dislike Christianity a LOT, and I don't wanna do that....

[geoff]

and why is that?

[Mchnhead2k5]

. By the way, I thank my Lord for dying on the cross for me 2000 years ago, if not for Him I would be lost. .

Sooo Christ died when he was 9? :)

[JDM onlyy]

and why is that?

Its just that my way or the you're going to hell way thing you got going with your religion. And just because you spend hours upon hours reading the bible doesn't mean your an expert on it, you interpret it any way you want just like someone else could interpret it the way they want.

Oh and every scripture seems to be your favorite scripture....

[geoff]

Honestly i read it with a literal meaning. The bible says that God is not the author of confusion, so His word would not be confusing to read either. I never once said anyone is going to hell, I am not God so I can not judge anyone bro, nor do i try to. I do study the bible ALOT lol, I love every scripture. I have had some pretty cool experiences while reading that I could share with you if you like. God even spoke to me about witnessing on here, kinda slapped me in the face. I don't try to interpret the bible, it is already very clear on what it says, before I read I pray God open my mind and give me understanding and He does.

[trini_gsr]

wow i can't believe i missed this thread. LOL yeah it was definitely a breath of fresh air up in here. this is the 1st time i've ever heard/read anything from a knowledgeable catholic! i agree with a lot of aethir's initial comments, especially about the nature of evil. hit it right on the head IMO. and you're right, it does help a lot to have a firm understanding of philosophy and historical context when contemplating this subject.

but aethir, your education on this matter is really subjective. your comment about "ppl would be still worshipping trees" gave it away LOL...that was cute, but all i will say to that is, there's a WHOLE lot more to spirituality than even catholic tradition speaks to. it's kind of like your example with Augustine and the hole filled with water. there's a cultural component to that analogy that it seems you are totally overlooking...

[Kevykev]

Evil is demonstrated daily, therefore, It certainly exists.


Just answering the question.

[StreetHazard]

Evil is demonstrated daily, therefore, It certainly exists.


Just answering the question.


Thank you to whoever brought me this baby, it is going to make a wonderful gavel for my next prayer meeting.


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[EJ25RUN]

Evil is ignorance and hatred toward others.

[ueyedgr8tness]

^ evil being manifested is some 1 without GOD because evil is the oppisite of love and the bible says GOD IS LOVE so to clear alot of stuff up from 2-3 different threads.people ask me" how can u believe in some 1 u don't see?" I say i do see him because when you become a christian he lives within u.I see GOD through u because of your deeds u do in the body.alot of ppl claim to be a son of GOD but fell at repentance because they crucify him every day by going against his word.I think even not a religous person u can come to a agreement that a true christian that lives by the bible is some 1 u look up to because there full of love even if there done wrong and no evil can be found in them.Now take into perspective if every 1 in the world was like that.world would have no problems what so ever and then we would all be in the mind of GOD and we would be (PERFECT) Now imagine a world like that:) NOW that is what heaven is going to be like.bible does say let this mind be in u tat was also in christ jesus and jesus was perfect loving every 1 and doing nothing but good so that means if we put on that mind we
could be perfect through GOD and evil would not be present.




ON the real that was alot of sunday morning rant but i liked it.But for some 1 that is confused with my no grammer. spelling,etc here is a baby break down.

GOD=love,peace,hope,prosperity,happiness
Devil+evil,hate,anger and crimes and other stuff that goes with being without GOD which we see alot of in the world today


Don't blast me because of my beliefs if you don't like it just tell me a reason why without going all crazy on what i posted no need to get all out of hand because i got love for every 1 here i think...(Looks around) :)

[StreetHazard]

^ evil being manifested is some 1 without GOD because evil is the oppisite of love and the bible says GOD IS LOVE so to clear alot of stuff up from 2-3 different threads.people ask me" how can u believe in some 1 u don't see?" I say i do see him because when you become a christian he lives within u.I see GOD through u because of your deeds u do in the body.alot of ppl claim to be a son of GOD but fell at repentance because they crucify him every day by going against his word.I think even not a religous person u can come to a agreement that a true christian that lives by the bible is some 1 u look up to because there full of love even if there done wrong and no evil can be found in them.Now take into perspective if every 1 in the world was like that.world would have no problems what so ever and then we would all be in the mind of GOD and we would be (PERFECT) Now imagine a world like that:) NOW that is what heaven is going to be like.bible does say let this mind be in u tat was also in christ jesus and jesus was perfect loving every 1 and doing nothing but good so that means if we put on that mind we
could be perfect through GOD and evil would not be present.




ON the real that was alot of sunday morning rant but i liked it.But for some 1 that is confused with my no grammer. spelling,etc here is a baby break down.

GOD=love,peace,hope,prosperity,happiness
Devil+evil,hate,anger and crimes and other stuff that goes with being without GOD which we see alot of in the world today


Don't blast me because of my beliefs if you don't like it just tell me a reason why without going all crazy on what i posted no need to get all out of hand because i got love for every 1 here i think...(Looks around) :)


At least you acknowledge your lack of grammer so I can't bust your balls too bad about it. But it did seriously almost make me get a splitting headache from having to read, then re read what you posted to try to figure out what the hell you are talking about.

This is one of the biggest problems I have with Christians right here


GOD=love,peace,hope,prosperity,happiness : Devil+evil,hate,anger and crimes and other stuff that goes with being without GOD which we see alot of in the world today

This concept of faith based morality is what gets you Theocratic governments like we have in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and in lesser extremes, most nations included within western society as well, including America. Manifesting itself most recently in the form of blatant discrimination of homosexuality and inequality of civil rights against gay people, ironically around the same exact time America progressivly elected it's first Black president. The European Union is facing the threat of Islam, not necessarily by suicide bombers....but by something possibly far more dangerous.

It comes under the guise of "religious freedom" and rallies against "islamophobia" and going so far as to say if you do not agree with their beliefs, then you could call yourself a racist! But it takes the form of "Honor Killings" of women, censorship and threats of violence against anything satiring or nay-saying their cherished beliefs like cartoons and even South Park. Complaining when the Muslim women dressed as fucking bee-keepers with ski-masks on get turned away at banks and government facilities because it covers up their identities as some kind of attack on their shitty, backwards, barbaric culture. And forcing to apply Islamic Sharia Law to inheritance, marriage and divorce laws to the countries that they just so happen to reside in. And complaining so loudly of the economic laws of those European countries they live in that Great Britain has relaxed their laws for the pacification of the mewling Islamic masses and opened a "Islamic Bank of Britain (http://www.islamic-bank.com/)", and have parliamentary leaders that are such fucking pussies and are so scared to be labeled a "racist" or an "islamophobe" that they are allowing this foreign barbaric culture change the face of every ideal that has brought western culture into the forefront of our global consciousness as something to respect, if not to strive for....NOT something to be ashamed of.

Faith based morality is a problem of understanding, semantics, and evident falsehoods. It is an ideology, a system of belief based on childish certainties, and infantile hopes and unrealistic dreams. It removes the notion that you are in complete control of your future and replaces this sentiment with morally and intellectually indefensible notions of codependency, and other created needs and impose these notions of this fake morality under a guise of "religious freedom"....but only freedom for those that believe and follow the same ideology. For myself it is the crushing weight of a dogmatic society of ignorance, sophistry, and violence that I want to have NO part of, but is forced upon me by societies that demand non-believers become one of the herd, and have convinced themselves....by force if necessary.

Only sheep need a shepherd, life is much more liberating when you are freed from the shackles of religious dogma.

[ueyedgr8tness]

^ ok #1 I am not 1 of thoes ppl who said this way or no way.I simple base my information on how i grew up living and trusting in GODS word.I don't personally care about muslim culture are any of the other religion u speak about because it has nothing to do about what i believe,and i believe GOD is love and every person that i see that has them in side of which is few.Therer is something about them the way they walk,talk and live there day to day life.Love is not blowing up stuff and trying to force some book or religion down some 1 throat.As in for faith EVERY 1 has faith trust me they do.for an example if you knew u would not wake up in the morning u probley would never go to sleep.Its faith that u believe that u will wake up so u do go to sleep and wake up.



I no we have our differences about religion but once again u put me in the stock with all the other ppl that force stuff on ppl.I am not that 1 i simply speak how i believe and if you choose or not choose the path thats ur life u do what u will.But i will tell u this and u no for a fact i am right...



If the world lived by just the 10 commandments out of the BIBLE this place would be a much better place and u no that is a fact that no 1 religous or not can argue.And if you don't believe in GOD then u tell me how we got here.And i do mean without bringing up all the story that science has to offer because there all myths not true facts.But me as a human i find it hard to believe that the earth could produce humans and then the earth 1 day just decides ahhh... screw it they don't need anymore they have enough.A lung,rib,heart,throat,liver etc can not be formed by "earth" and science no that but yet they would rather spend ur tax dollars so that they can feed u a line of junk to make u not want to no the true reason u where created.

OH! and the unrealistic dreams thing is not true.I no that from personal exp :)

[StreetHazard]

I choose not to differentiate the various sects of worshipers of the desert deity Yahweh as their ideals and monotheistic dogma so closely mimic each other, especially in the theophostic septic tank at the bottom of it.

Jerusalem......For the sake of these arguments I use the term "Abrahamic religion" so as to not leave anyone out, and are historically the world's three primary monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam which share common origin and values. Your faith is inexorably tied to these other faiths through the patriarch "Abraham".

I am not going to pick apart your posts, as i have grown tired of trying to read and understand them or engage those just like you in these very boring viewpoints. But any concept, of any form of faith-based morality has been proven false and dangerous. And has caused some of the worst human-rights violations the world has ever seen....and as I have described above, is still continuing.

whether you like it or not, it has happened and is still going strong under the banner of your precious faith, I don't give a fuck what you personally believe. Maybe you think Jesus is the son of god and now floats around on earth like a benevolent boogyman, or some hybrid god that was combined with man in the body of Jesus, I have heard it all.

The reason why this thread was made here is because religious "faith" usually defines the definition of good and evil for the society and the larger culture. And I am saying religion itself and the adherants of the abrahamic monotheistic concept of (GAWD) and the morality of the deity, fits it's own definition of evil. And the 10 commandments themselves are a mute point when faced up against the suppression, violence and warfare portrayed in the old testament in it's own hypocrisy as an act of god's will. Not to mention only convey a guideline for just simple common sense which obviously their own flock are unable to follow. By faith based morality manifesting in our own "capital punishment laws" (an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth) in direct contradiction to the 6th commandment, while at the same time pro-life evangelicals and born again christians are fighting in our court houses to ban abortion and deny homosexuals basic human civil rights of marriage demonstrates this false virtue called "faith".

These faith based views and concepts of morality should not be forced into our laws. Your christian flock in many ways are just as evil and damaging to the progression of society as their islamic counterparts. I am convinced neither will be happy until the entire human race has been kept from advancing by at least 500 years.

[5speed]

Does the Bible even state that God created angels? I know it states that the angels were in existence before humans as stated in Job. People seem to assume that God created angels. If angels truly do exist, and God created them, then therefore God created Evil on purpose. Lucifer would already have been known to turn against God and push evil things on humans.

If angels really do exist, then God could have possibly existed along with them in the same (not that he was an angel himself), but became more powerful. Thus, angels began to worship him. He then creates humans just bc he felt like it (whether it is for deep reasons or for fun).

Just 2 ways to look at it.

[StreetHazard]

Really? Angels huh?

[geoff]

Its been a while since i have been in here. You can try and throw all the Christians into one category streethazard and say we are all evil and suppressive. You bring up homosexuals, its not natural, if it was then both men and women could reproduce, if it goes against nature than how can it be right? You fight for gay rights but what about the rights of unborn children? "Save the trees, Kill the children!" are those your righteous worldly morals? A world without God is chaos. You hate Jesus, Christians, their values, ect...don't worry friend, you read the book. He is coming back for the " true " believers and those Holy Spirit filled children of His. You wont have to worry about us much longer.

5speed- Just because it doesnt talk about it much doesnt mean it didnt happen. God created angels as messagers for Him. One got ballsy and rebelled. God also created man and knew that man would "sin and die. Is this all His fault? No, He always gives us an out. Jesus died for you, as He was being beaten, spit on, tortured, and drank the cup of your sin and sickness and death, He thought " this is for Tyler, my son, and it is worth it all"

[StreetHazard]

You bring up homosexuals, its not natural, if it was then both men and women could reproduce, if it goes against nature than how can it be right?

I get the impression you don't really know any gay people, or actually included much in any aspect of their lives. They cannot change their sexuality as much as you or I can. They should not be vilified for it.


You fight for gay rights but what about the rights of unborn children? "Save the trees, Kill the children!" are those your righteous worldly morals?

No....I would burn both of them equally, but I would have to decide which one is actually more beneficial and useful to me to choose, and if those were my only options it would be a tough choice. A six week old snot ball of congregated cells in the mothers uterus is not a child. But since you are so fucking altruistic why don't you protest playtex and kleenex then fight for the rights of snot rags and used tampons everywhere since you are so concerned, you should keep all that snot and blood in your prayers.


A world without God is chaos. You hate Jesus, Christians, their values, ect...don't worry friend, you read the book. He is coming back for the " true " believers and those Holy Spirit filled children of His. You wont have to worry about us much longer.

A world without people killing over their illusionary beliefs and fighting on God's behalf is a world in peace. If your god was real he wouldn't need you to fight his battles.

I think if Jesus's spirit was real and came back for his followers, he would be very disappointed in you Geoff. From what I have gathered from your posts you do not represent or echo any of his ideals at all, you might be very surprised where you end up....you might just be holding hands with me into the fiery gates of hell. Your ego and arrogance would be your undoing. But I won't hold my breath for you, like patiently waiting for an alien to abduct me and take me to the planet Arcturus and used for breeding purposes with every beautiful, green, 3 tittied alien they have for a Arcturian/epically awesome human hybrid. But if a "Rapture" did take place and every christian of the world disappeared, at that moment is when you would finally hear a "HALLELUJAH!" out of me.

[geoff]

Ah my friend God already gave you a message. Maybe you forgot the private message I sent to you? As far as gay people go, it is a spirit on them so in a sense no they can't do anything about it accept pray and be delivered. Much like someone addicted to drugs would. You go ahead and call that human life what you want it, just because it is in the beggining stages does not make it any less valuable. Why don't we go ahead and kill off all the senior citizens too since they are not really productive members of society anyway, right? Go ahead and call me what you want, I follow what the Lord taught. I have no hate for no man, but rather the sin and evil that envelops us all, yes even me. I am a humble man trying to shine a light in a lost and dying world, one that needs the message of the gospel so that all may be prepared for Jesus. Keep saying your going to be relieved when He comes back, I'm betting you wont be so easy going about all of this once you see you were wrong. You my friend will be judged on a different level, because you have known the truth and God and chose to deny Him. Good luck to you, and I will continue to pray for you. God bless!

[StreetHazard]

I am a humble man trying to shine a light in a lost and dying world, one that needs the message of the gospel so that all may be prepared for Jesus.

You think far to highly of yourself, you are nothing but another fevered ego polluting our collective imaginations with your bullshit.

that is all...

[geoff]

Humble man does not mean in any sense that I think highly of myself. I am least in the Kingdom to come, but those are the ones that God will use. My friend pollution is of the world, if I am trying to add BS to peoples imaginations, then I invite you to come to church with me. Not that the building itself is anything, but the power of God is at work. Come with me once, experience the Holy Ghost and you will be humbled. I have seen many a man with stronger anti-christian beliefs and hatred than you fall on their faces with tears running down their faces. God spoke to you, the Spirit will convict you and draw you to Him, I dare you. Like always, I will continue to pray for you and God bless you brother.

[StreetHazard]

Humble man does not mean in any sense that I think highly of myself. I am least in the Kingdom to come, but those are the ones that God will use. My friend pollution is of the world, if I am trying to add BS to peoples imaginations, then I invite you to come to church with me. Not that the building itself is anything, but the power of God is at work. Come with me once, experience the Holy Ghost and you will be humbled. I have seen many a man with stronger anti-christian beliefs and hatred than you fall on their faces with tears running down their faces. God spoke to you, the Spirit will convict you and draw you to Him, I dare you. Like always, I will continue to pray for you and God bless you brother.


Even if I wanted to walk with your god and follow the path of Jesus Christ, by the bible itself all of it would be pointless because I have committed eternal sin.

Mark 3:28

"Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

Matthew 12:30

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

So you see I could devote the rest of my entire life to the teachings of Christ, get re-baptized and have a love for the gospel so as to have committed the entire work to memory and I will still roast in hell for all of eternity......just more proof of the benevolence, grace and unconditional love of your God. So I better get to all that wonderful sinning, because there is lots of it to do.

[geoff]

Wrong, if there is breath there is hope. God is on the mercy seat now. Repent and it could be changed around. You could either enter into the gates of heaven with your sins in front of you, covered by the blood of Christ or behind you to be judged. It is always our choice. That scripture was to show them that said He did His miracles by the power of satan that they could not believe Him but that they were to believe the works. You cant blaspheme the Holy Ghost if you don't know what it is. Once you encounter it and are filled life changes, every doubt and concern and unbelief vanish. God bless

[StreetHazard]

And what would I be repenting?

All of the joy, fulfillment and happiness I have gained through all of my so-called "sinning"?

This concept of feeling guilty for things I should be proud of does not resonate with me. While being proud of this illusionary virtue of faith and false piety in all reality, is something to be ashamed of.

[geoff]

You would be repenting of anything that goes against what pleases God, basically for not trying to live a righteous life. Yes there is pleasure in sin, I had my fair share of it aswell. But it is very true when the bible says, " that the pleasures of sin are for but a season". What is the point of living a sinful life? Sleeping around and possibly getting diseased, drinking and smoking and drugs to destroy your body and cut your life short, being selfish and inconsiderate to others. None of that lasts man. None of it is ever enough, you get bored with it and look to do more and more until you reach the point of a crack addict or alcoholic that lost everything and wonders " how did it get this far?" You told me once that you were involved with church, you never made mention of being filled with the Spirit. To be filled with God is true satisfaction. To live a life where you put others first, to do a good deed and see someone break into tears because of your kindness. To be remembered as someone that loved and lived for Jesus, who served others, who did good, who loved all, who you couldn't say anything bad about; that is a great way to be remembered, to leave behind a legacy. Or you could be remembered as the guy that knew how to have a good time but never really did anything in life, that is a man that is soon forgotten. I had my share of living for every pleasure and living the fun sinful life. It left me empty and searching for more. When I started living for God I was fulfilled and every day held something new and amazing for me.

[StreetHazard]

Cool story bro

[geoff]

Not a story man, have you ever really tried to search man? I don't mean going to church, saying a quick prayer, and calling yourself Christian. I mean have you ever dug deep and really put your whole heart into it? I don't know you but I am sure you are a cool guy. But I am sure that like everyone else, people only get to see the outer shell of your personality. What is inside? Do you not feel that gapping whole in your soul and life? We each have a missing piece to our lives puzzle, that piece is God. I dare you to search, harder than anyone you have known. Put your heart into it, take that first step of faith and Jesus Himself will reach down to you. Find peace my brother, the peace that only He can provide. God bless

[ueyedgr8tness]

^ geoff the truth is they find not because they ask not.I have to say with religion are not street has other issues of anger that go deeper I don't care to push him in anyway i just lay it out there and if they bite then good for them other wise its on them.I use to think some what like street untill i had a personal experience with GOD when i was younger and it changed my out look on GOD no doubt! Street has yet to even give me a have decent come back on how we where created because at the end of the day he has no idea but in his heart he no there is a higher power because the human body is so amazing that the earth could never dream of producing.

[geoff]

This is what pushes and turns people away from Christ, were in any of your posts did you once portray the love of Christ? You say that you tell them what is right and leave it up to them to decide? They will only get offended and the Bible says that a brother offended is not won easily. Love is what changes hearts, the Spirit is love and uses love to convict and draw to God. We are to witness the gospel to others with love. Do not sit there and tell him he is wrong and can't provide this or that, cuz in the end you have no proof either. You have a PERSONAL experience with the Lord that no one else can experience. It was your own, do not try and use a I am better than you approach. Street Hazard to me sounds like many people I have talked to, He has anger towards us and rightfully so. We, by not loving, have brought shame to the name of Jesus. There is hope for this man, and the Spirit is calling him. You do not know what lies in his heart or spirit. And please repeat that last part, it is kinda hard to understand. God bless

[ueyedgr8tness]

^ show me where i have showed hate? It is 1 thing most importantly i have learned about trying to live for GOD,Is that if you want to witness to some 1 its ok to do so,But don't stay there long enough for them to plant seeds in your crop so that they might grow in you.All i can show them is the way to christ but its on them if they decide to choose the path.Also what is in the heart will comes out which is why i said he had deeper anger issues,why i do not no but all i can do is pray for him.I am no perfect man but i can be through GOD,also u hounding 24/7 on ppl about religion is not going to change there mind without GOD doing it for them otherwise u just beating up a tree.



The bottom part is a guy that use to go to ur church and he is trying to figure out who u are thanks bye.

[StreetHazard]

you two are adorable, I just want to squeeze your cheeks and give you a noogie!

[geoff]

i started going there in september 07

[geoff]

I was not trying to say that you are being hateful. But there is a difference in witnessing the message of Christ and then doing it with love. You have something this man doesn't. You have faith and you have the Lord in your life. We as Christians are to plant a seed of hope and faith, and then to continue watering this seed, and finally pray that God would give the increase and this person might bear fruit. At one point in time, someone prayed for you and did not give up. This world as you know my friend, is on borrowed time. The Lord stands outside the door knocking and it is by His mercy that He has not come back to find us cold. Would you not want to tell someone about this? There is no time left brother, in a day not far from now, all will see the Son of Man coming in His glory on a cloud of fire, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. But unfortunately it will be too late for those that did not believe. There is a one way ride out of here before God pours His wrath on the earth, the rapture. Two shall be in the field, one will be taken and the other remain. I don't know about you but I do not wish that any would be left behind. Once the Lord closes the door, many shall come and knock and say but Lord we knew you, and He shall tell them be gone from Me, I do not know you.

[StreetHazard]

I was not trying to say that you are being hateful. But there is a difference in witnessing the message of Christ and then doing it with love. You have something this man doesn't. You have faith and you have the Lord in your life. We as Christians are to plant a seed of hope and faith, and then to continue watering this seed, and finally pray that God would give the increase and this person might bear fruit. At one point in time, someone prayed for you and did not give up. This world as you know my friend, is on borrowed time. The Lord stands outside the door knocking and it is by His mercy that He has not come back to find us cold. Would you not want to tell someone about this? There is no time left brother, in a day not far from now, all will see the Son of Man coming in His glory on a cloud of fire, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. But unfortunately it will be too late for those that did not believe. There is a one way ride out of here before God pours His wrath on the earth, the rapture. Two shall be in the field, one will be taken and the other remain. I don't know about you but I do not wish that any would be left behind. Once the Lord closes the door, many shall come and knock and say but Lord we knew you, and He shall tell them be gone from Me, I do not know you.

So your god has the emotional range of a teenager that was stood up on prom night....If god is that petty, that callous and jealous I see no real reason to feed that godly ego any more except through more threats and fear. You are doing quite well fulfilling that role on your own. You can have him all to yourself since you are so cowardly to challenge only a belief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEn0px0uJZQ&NR=1

Your threats of hellfire and damnation are just as silly as your claims of speaking the message of Christ with love and kindness. Hopefully you can see how your message, and abrahamic religion itself immediately contradicts itself and just falls flat. Again, only sheep need a shepherd and I will never be led by threats, especially empty ones. I do quite well on my own....and you would be doing yourself a favor if you put these childish beliefs behind you and started living your life for yourself, in all it's pleasures and learning from the hardships.

You invite me to your church?

I'll invite you to mine

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?288389-Pink-Pony-South-this-Saturday-night....

you should come out, it's tomorrow night...we can continue this over liquor and titties

[geoff]

You knew God once and walked away, the Holy Spirit is still calling you back to this day brother. For me it is more than a belief, it is an experience and my life. It was the same for you once. The message of the gospel is not one of hellfire and threats but this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Yes I invite you to my church. I invite you to answer the calling on your life, to heed the tugging at your heart, to open your eyes and ears and re-invite the Lord back into your life. I invite you to see the Lord, repent of your sins, be baptized in the name of Jesus, and then to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

[ueyedgr8tness]

To be honest u remind me of my ex church and the main reason i don't go to church no more.I understand ur point but the way u present it is way off base.I so hope to meet u 1 day and if it takes me going to your church i will do so since u want call me and setup.I do believe in GOD and i have been told what u are saying my whole life which is 1 of the reasons i dropped out of church and started to study on my own because alot of stuff i was taught growing up was not inline with the bible when i read it.

[geoff]

will give you a call....

[sti_cham]

FROSTY POOKIE EDDIE EDDIE!!!
wtf does that mean?
i dont know man im JOSE CONSECO!