The world may end in 2012 but

[Bajjani]

Capitalism started dying 2nite in America!

[thegovanator]

Agreed

[Mantooth]

I thought about making this thread. Man, this fucking sucks.

[Me86Rob]

??

[Bajjani]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/21/health.care.main/index.html

[thegovanator]

:ninja: I got ninja'd

[RL...]

I'm not for gov. intervention unless on things that are needed like public education, but this bill doesn't seem to bad, and doesn't seem that it will affect me too much....They're not rasiing taxes(atleast not yet) they're merely reallocating the way they budget their money.

[Bajjani]

I'm not for gov. intervention unless on things that are needed like public education, but this bill doesn't seem to bad, and doesn't seem that it will affect me too much....They're not rasiing taxes(atleast not yet) they're merely reallocating the way they budget their money.

Income taxes are going to go up. Company side costs will skyrocket by over 100%. Companys will have to cut costs. That includes pay cuts, layoffs, and getting rid of things like 401k plans all together.

[RL...]

Income taxes are going to go up. Company side costs will skyrocket by over 100%. Companys will have to cut costs. That includes pay cuts, layoffs, and getting rid of things like 401k plans all together.

Is this speculation or do you have proof behind this? I can understand why you think this might happen but unless you have proof then it's neither here nor there. But realistically the companies will probably pass the added cost of covering insurance on to it's employees and customers....could be worse, we could be in China...

[japan4racing]

even if they dont raise your taxes they are raising ppls taxes that make alot of money(big business and some small business)....their taxes go up and the price of their product goes up...and who pays for that???? thats right..we do! so even if our taxes stay the same we still pay more...its simple economics.

[RL...]

even if they dont raise your taxes they are raising ppls taxes that make alot of money(big business and some small business)....their taxes go up and the price of their product goes up...and who pays for that???? thats right..we do! so even if our taxes stay the same we still pay more...its simple economics.

It doesn't sound like the gov. is going to directly raise taxes for big or small busniess from this bill. Maybe maybe not. The gov. could come up with ways to give companies subsidies to help offset the costs of inusring employees, or companies could find other means cutting costs such as increasing efficiency. If you have taken a basic econ class as I have you would know it's not as cut and dry as what you described. All we can do is speculate until we see the results of this bill, and that's all this is is speculation.

[Bacon]

making health insurance mandatory or else?!?! thats a bunch of horse shit.

[Got Milk?]

This is what caught my eyes"Most Americans will now be required to have health insurance or pay a fine. Larger employers will be required to provide coverage or risk financial penalties. Total individual out-of-pocket expenses will be capped, and insurers will be barred from denying coverage based on gender or pre-existing conditions."

[SlowEG9]

I just wander when the shits going to actually start taking place

[Bacon]

This is what caught my eyes"Most Americans will now be required to have health insurance or pay a fine. Larger employers will be required to provide coverage or risk financial penalties. Total individual out-of-pocket expenses will be capped, and insurers will be barred from denying coverage based on gender or pre-existing conditions."

Think the cost of insurance will go down? Shit ain't cheap for a family.

[SlowEG9]

Think the cost of insurance will go down? Shit ain't cheap for a family.

Hell no...Why would it go down if its required now? You know people gotta have it...

[Elbow]

Why do so many people cry about this? It's not a bad thing and won't really effect anyone here for the most part. Maybe this means I can get health insurance easier now. My trip to the ER the other night cost me $500 just to get in a room, $500 in blood work, $500 to the doctor, $75 monitoring fee even though I wasn't monitored for my five hour visit, and more.

[§treet_§peed]

Why do so many people cry about this? It's not a bad thing and won't really effect anyone here for the most part. Maybe this means I can get health insurance easier now. My trip to the ER the other night cost me $500 just to get in a room, $500 in blood work, $500 to the doctor, $75 monitoring fee even though I wasn't monitored for my five hour visit, and more.

Shit you got off cheap, real cheap.

[Elbow]

Shit you got off cheap, real cheap.

Well $2k in bills because of a sore throat isn't too cheap. lol

[David88vert]

In ten years, you won't even get to see a doctor for a sore throat. You will have wait times longer than they do in Canada.

[Elbow]

In ten years, you won't even get to see a doctor for a sore throat. You will have wait times longer than they do in Canada.

That comment is entirely untrue. You may want to do more reading.

[David88vert]

That comment is entirely untrue. You may want to do more reading.

It is true. I have Canadian friends that cross the border to pay for healthcare services. It's well-known. Here are their published times.
http://canadaonline.about.com/od/healthcarewaittimes/Wait_Times_for_Health_Care_in_Canada.htm

In 2000, the WHO ranked the US #1 in quality of care for those receiving treatment, and Canada was #7.

[oneSLOWex]

If the already struggling businesses are required to provide health care....how do you think they are going to get the money for that? I don't see how anyone can be happy about this shit.

[Bacon]

No crying about it here because I have insurance, but if they are gonna make it mandatory they gotta make it easier price wise for the people to get it. It would make sense to do that, but then again it is our government we are talking about here.

[Vteckidd]

Why do so many people cry about this? It's not a bad thing and won't really effect anyone here for the most part. Maybe this means I can get health insurance easier now. My trip to the ER the other night cost me $500 just to get in a room, $500 in blood work, $500 to the doctor, $75 monitoring fee even though I wasn't monitored for my five hour visit, and more.

You obviously have no idea how this works. You can get insurance for under $100 a month I guarantee if you don't smoke. You choose to not pay that money and go uncovered. That's your fault. Furthermore er for a sore throat is stupid. You should have gone to a minute clinic an you would have paid $75 for visit and meds.

It is a big deal it effects everyone, taxes will rise, premiums will rise, private companies will go out of business, unemployment will rise, recession will drag on

[Vteckidd]

That comment is entirely untrue. You may want to do more reading.

You run a business right? You can't expand coverage by 15-20% more people and keep the existing staff which is already understaffed and expect the same or faster wait times. That's just dumb.

[Elbow]

You obviously have no idea how this works. You can get insurance for under $100 a month I guarantee if you don't smoke. You choose to not pay that money and go uncovered. That's your fault. Furthermore er for a sore throat is stupid. You should have gone to a minute clinic an you would have paid $75 for visit and meds.

It is a big deal it effects everyone, taxes will rise, premiums will rise, private companies will go out of business, unemployment will rise, recession will drag on

I can't get insurance obviously if I only had to pay $100 a month I would, why wouldn't I? I get turned down for "previous health reasons." There are no 24 hour clinics in Athens that I found and the pain was INSANE, I broke my foot in HALF and it wasn't even half the pain my throat was so yeah it was kind of necessary. I'm not complaining about the bill it was worth it for the pain to stop.

Small companies will not go out of business because of this, taxes who cares? I don't. Unemployment won't rise because companies won't close. The recession will drag on but that's not because of this. I'm not saying I'm ENTIRELY for this there are better ways but people are making it out to be the worst thing that's happened.

[Paul]

I think anyone who has had to deal w/ any type of hardship medically was very glad they had insurance. I don't see anything wrong with us extending coverage to 30+ million people. Independent studies have shown this is the right course of action so I don't see what the big deal is. The same group who researched this plan has been used by both Dem/Rep in the past. They have gov funded healthcare all over the world and it works well - people who say it doesn't work I would love to know how many have been to countries w/ such a system. (and when i say all over the world i mean europe, south america, etc)

[Bajjani]

I'm tired of hearing you fucking retards tell me this isn't going to affect me or I won't see change. Do you have any fucking clue what you're talking about or are you talking out of your ass because you want some fuckin handouts? I'm serious, this shit pisses me off beyond belief.

Let me break it down for you, factually, from the business standpoint.

Healthcare is now MANDATORY and they just removed the cap on how much insurance companies can charge. Not only do businesses have to provide healthcare to the EMPLOYEE, but also his entire family. For a twenty million a year revenue company with approx. 150 employees, you're looking at a cost change from 200-300k, to 500-800k. First off, the economy is already struggling, business is down, businesses are struggling and making huge cuts, look at our fucking unemployment. So this is the bottom line affect people are putting on companies. That means above said company will have to generate another 300-500k GROSS PROFIT just to cover medical cost to make no changes and make the same bottom line. That means 300-500k after we pay for taxes, labor, equipment, material, subs, whatever other costs may be incurred to generate that revenue. That means realistically you're looking at a required increase in revenue of about 1.2-1.5 million, minimum. That is just to cover the change in cost of medical. Companies are not going to be able to just say, oh well lets just go do more business, its not that easy. That means companies have to raise their prices to pay for a portion of it, cut benefit programs such as 401k, and here is the best one, LAYOFFS!!

So then what happens? Well, we have more unemployed people so businesses can stay afloat, but healthcare is free for people w/o jobs so the cost goes up again, but this time not as much. The majority of companies that survive are the huge corporations and the tiny tiny stores (under a half a million-million revenue). These companies have few enough employees the cost, but the middle ground companies, the 1-100million range, they'll suffer. MANY of them will not be able to incur these costs and stay afloat, that means more unemployed. The bigger corporations will pick up the new business and hire. Long term affect possibility is that we head more towards socialism. Reasoning being that as these large corporations pick up all the mid sized companies business, they became monopolies and closed markets. The government doesn't like those and the government will step in. MY THEORY is if this shit continues the government will say this is a mess we need to run it for you. Eventually we'll end up as a socialist country. I know my ass will be moved to the UK way before that happens though.

[Bajjani]

I think anyone who has had to deal w/ any type of hardship medically was very glad they had insurance. I don't see anything wrong with us extending coverage to 30+ million people. Independent studies have shown this is the right course of action so I don't see what the big deal is. The same group who researched this plan has been used by both Dem/Rep in the past. They have gov funded healthcare all over the world and it works well - people who say it doesn't work I would love to know how many have been to countries w/ such a system. (and when i say all over the world i mean europe, south america, etc)

I have, it doesn't work.

[Paul]

You obviously have no idea how this works. You can get insurance for under $100 a month I guarantee if you don't smoke. You choose to not pay that money and go uncovered. That's your fault. Furthermore er for a sore throat is stupid. You should have gone to a minute clinic an you would have paid $75 for visit and meds.

It is a big deal it effects everyone, taxes will rise, premiums will rise, private companies will go out of business, unemployment will rise, recession will drag on

your 100$ insurance doesn't cover shit nor will it cover preexisting conditions i'm sure of. i don't buy into the far right fear factor you want to sell - this system has been used all over the world in countries who economies are better than ours currently. they aren't slashing jobs due to this. most companies are small businesses and have less than 50 employees so this will have not effect on them.

[Vteckidd]

You realize that businesses must now incur and extra expense or pay a fine right? That cost will get cycled into 1) cost of goods 2)employees

history has shown us that when you raise the expenses of a business they find a way to pass that cost on. Now if we weren't in a recession and unemployment was around 4% and economy was booming not a big deal IMO, but in this climate all they did was insure a longer recovery or maybe even a collapse.

If you are already cash strapped business and now you must provide healthcare to your employees, that business will either lay more people off resultig in higher unemployment, or close it's doors resulting in higher unemployment, or raise it's prices on it's services or goods which hurts all Americans

they will be single handedly destroying private insurance companies. This is a step to a single payer system Obama has said it all along this is just the beginning. This bill breaks the backs and puts insurers out of business. How many people are employed by the insurance companies

yeah I think your head is in the sand

[Paul]

I have, it doesn't work.

really what country are you a citizen of that you have gov funded healthcare?

[Vteckidd]

I think anyone who has had to deal w/ any type of hardship medically was very glad they had insurance. I don't see anything wrong with us extending coverage to 30+ million people. Independent studies have shown this is the right course of action so I don't see what the big deal is. The same group who researched this plan has been used by both Dem/Rep in the past. They have gov funded healthcare all over the world and it works well - people who say it doesn't work I would love to know how many have been to countries w/ such a system. (and when i say all over the world i mean europe, south america, etc)


Those 30 million can wait 4 years for coverage you know that right. But they can start paying NOW

[Vteckidd]

I think anyone who has had to deal w/ any type of hardship medically was very glad they had insurance. I don't see anything wrong with us extending coverage to 30+ million people. Independent studies have shown this is the right course of action so I don't see what the big deal is. The same group who researched this plan has been used by both Dem/Rep in the past. They have gov funded healthcare all over the world and it works well - people who say it doesn't work I would love to know how many have been to countries w/ such a system. (and when i say all over the world i mean europe, south america, etc)


Those 30 million can wait 4 years for coverage you know that right. But they can start paying NOW

why are we ranked #1 if everyone else is so great

[Paul]

You realize that businesses must now incur and extra expense or pay a fine right? That cost will get cycled into 1) cost of goods 2)employees

history has shown us that when you raise the expenses of a business they find a way to pass that cost on. Now if we weren't in a recession and unemployment was around 4% and economy was booming not a big deal IMO, but in this climate all they did was insure a longer recovery or maybe even a collapse.

If you are already cash strapped business and now you must provide healthcare to your employees, that business will either lay more people off resultig in higher unemployment, or close it's doors resulting in higher unemployment, or raise it's prices on it's services or goods which hurts all Americans

they will be single handedly destroying private insurance companies. This is a step to a single payer system Obama has said it all along this is just the beginning. This bill breaks the backs and puts insurers out of business. How many people are employed by the insurance companies

yeah I think your head is in the sand

if you work for a company w/ over 50 employees who isn't offering healthcare currently strapped for cash they aren't built for a recession anyway. my company works on cash alone and we offer healthcare... why? b/c it is ran fiscally responsible where other companies aren't. the notion that 30+ million new consumers to the market is bad is crazy! all private healthcare companies will make money off of this and you are crazy to think other wise.

[Vteckidd]

your 100$ insurance doesn't cover shit nor will it cover preexisting conditions i'm sure of. i don't buy into the far right fear factor you want to sell - this system has been used all over the world in countries who economies are better than ours currently. they aren't slashing jobs due to this. most companies are small businesses and have less than 50 employees so this will have not effect on them.


Bullshit care to see my policy? I have aetna

Economies better than ours? Bullshit prove it, France? Brazil? Chile? China? Greece? Germany?

Define "better" since USA is consistently ranked #1 in care and access

no right wing rhetoric here I'm not republican , this is just simple mathmatics

[xxbckiexx]

This is what caught my eyes"Most Americans will now be required to have health insurance or pay a fine. Larger employers will be required to provide coverage or risk financial penalties. Total individual out-of-pocket expenses will be capped, and insurers will be barred from denying coverage based on gender or pre-existing conditions."

where did you see this?

[Vteckidd]

if you work for a company w/ over 50 employees who isn't offering healthcare currently strapped for cash they aren't built for a recession anyway. my company works on cash alone and we offer healthcare... why? b/c it is ran fiscally responsible where other companies aren't. the notion that 30+ million new consumers to the market is bad is crazy! all private healthcare companies will make money off of this and you are crazy to think other wise.

I guess 300-500k in extra costs is in the example above is chump change. Hey can't make money the rules have changed. They will be told what to charge and now they have to cover more people for LESS money

That's like saying 30million new people will buy a $20000 car from ford but now ford can only charge $10000. It's fuzzy math and you know it

I don't buy the comment that you're not recession proof if you don't provide healthcare. Totally untrue look how many huge institutions have failed. You realize 50 -200 employees is extremely small business right? If people aren't buying they aren't buying period that hurts everyone. Raising costs will hurt everyone

I'll bet you $100 unemployment goes up not down and business site healthcare as th reason. I'll bet you premiums rise too

[Elbow]

where did you see this?

In the article posted, however you can tell he didn't read it all or else he wouldn't of posted that.

[David88vert]

your 100$ insurance doesn't cover shit nor will it cover preexisting conditions i'm sure of. i don't buy into the far right fear factor you want to sell - this system has been used all over the world in countries who economies are better than ours currently. they aren't slashing jobs due to this. most companies are small businesses and have less than 50 employees so this will have not effect on them.

Mine does. Of course, I do work for a large company that can afford healthcare for its employees.

Canada and England both have major issues with their universal coverage in terms of responsiveness. These are not the systems that we should mimic.
Only France has a care system that is reasonable to look at, and it is still far from perfect. It has soaring healthcare costs that threaten its ability to provide with out rationing care in the future.

[Paul]

Bullshit care to see my policy? I have aetna

Economies better than ours? Bullshit prove it, France? Brazil? Chile? China? Greece? Germany?

Define "better" since USA is consistently ranked #1 in care and access

no right wing rhetoric here I'm not republican , this is just simple mathmatics

people use medicare/medicad/peachcare, etc everyday... i'm sure you have a family member on one of these why should we pay for those then?

[Paul]

Mine does. Of course, I do work for a large company that can afford healthcare for its employees.

Canada and England both have major issues with their universal coverage in terms of responsiveness. These are not the systems that we should mimic.
Only France has a care system that is reasonable to look at, and it is still far from perfect. It has soaring healthcare costs that threaten its ability to provide with out rationing care in the future.

Responsiveness isn't an issue to not give people healthcare... both countries all have some of the best medical care in the world in the public sector so how do you explain that? There are all kinds of flaws in any healthcare system doesn't matter public/private but it doesn't mean we shouldn't give people the chance to be covered.

ps i also have worked 6 years for the largest TPA on the east coast and my wife works in the industry as well every day so i do know a little bit about the inter workings of insurance, cost, and the issues.

[KodyH]

I think anyone who has had to deal w/ any type of hardship medically was very glad they had insurance. I don't see anything wrong with us extending coverage to 30+ million people. Independent studies have shown this is the right course of action so I don't see what the big deal is. The same group who researched this plan has been used by both Dem/Rep in the past. They have gov funded healthcare all over the world and it works well - people who say it doesn't work I would love to know how many have been to countries w/ such a system. (and when i say all over the world i mean europe, south america, etc)

I grew up in one and we never had issues. I have no idea why everyone is bitching about this. The only reason these ludicrous actions, such as layoffs and businesses closing are because of the mindset of Americans. Why are people being laid off? Because no one is buying. Why is no one buying? Because they are getting laid off. Its a cycle and until a vast majority breaks that, we will continue to decline. I hear several people in hear who seem to be in the mind state that LESS government is better. If this is true it is now YOUR responsibility to regain economical structure and security for the entire country, not single-handedly, but as a whole. If you think you have too much government interference, then why do you become so perturbed by this bill? It should have been expected. Bajjani and VtecKidd are right, this may destroy your government, but only because Americans refuse to change. If a form of socialism was required to succeed how many would willingly take that? Not many. Most would rather fight and fail then to join a reform. Survival of the fittest. Obama may not be the smartest cookie in the world, but I think he knows what he is doing. I do think some points of this bill are rather ridiculous, such as requiring parents to insure their children until 26. I'm 18 and get insurance through work, thankfully, but even if I didn't I would not ask for it from my parents. This is all the start of something the majority of you will be opposed to, but some will enjoy it. Work as a nation, not as political parties. Not to make a joke, but the only time America can join together is when someone flies a plane into a building or bombs a naval base. Work together people!

/endrant and waiting for bashing

[Vteckidd]

people use medicare/medicad/peachcare, etc everyday... i'm sure you have a family member on one of these why should we pay for those then?

no i dont all my family are retired USAF Veterans who are covered by the military plan for life. I pay for my own insurance , i went 6 years without coverage because small businesses like Mainstream, Batlground cant afford to pay peoples premiums. I totally understand that, thats why they should be allowed to band together. is that even in this bill i know obama talked about it.

Lets look at:
Medicare- BANKRUPT
Medicad- Bankrupt
Peachcare- State provided correct?

Dont change the argument i never said i wasnt for INSURING everyone, this is just not the way to do it. What i would have been behind was attacking the reasons why healthcare is so high in the first place and making it easier and more affordable for people to purchase.

Again its a simple gross difference in ideology , Dems think its a RIGHT that govt needs to provide, republicans think its a right that all people should have a chance to access.

The constitution says LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, not the guarantee of happiness.

I believe like almost all social programs, this will cover people that 1) Could afford healthcare but didnt want to buy it 2) People that are too lazy to make something of themselves to be able to afford it anyway.

The one SMALL SECTION of people, people REALLY working who cant REALLY afford it, well im happy they have coverage..........in 4 years.

I cant wait to see the amount of fraud and abuse when this system gets implemented. This will be the biggest I TOLD YOU SO in history

[David88vert]

Responsiveness isn't an issue to not give people healthcare... both countries all have some of the best medical care in the world in the public sector so how do you explain that? There are all kinds of flaws in any healthcare system doesn't matter public/private but it doesn't mean we shouldn't give people the chance to be covered.

I agree that we should give people proper healthcare - but this bill does not do that.
Canada and England have documented know issues with providing healthcare. For example, England has an 11% lower survival rate for breat cancer. 55% of UK patients said they had had difficulty getting access to GP care on weekends and nights. The UK also has the worst record for waiting times with 15% having to wait for more than six months for elective treatment. Canada was the next worst on 14%.

So, if England's NHS is so good, why did Wales pull out of it in 1999? And why are more people needing healthcare choosing to move from London to Scotland? Perhaps its because Scotland's 14 regional boards do a better job at providing healthcare?

[Vteckidd]

Work as a nation, not as political parties

Im sorry that made me laugh lol

I have no choice but to conform im not going to tell the govt to fuckoff. My point is the people that think this is about covering americans are DELUSIONAL. This isnt about covering people, this is about a POWER GRAB. The democrats who have failed us on doing anything to save the economy so far, now control 1/6th of the economy.

this is the first time in years ive actually considered leaving the country, and i hate to say that cause it pisses me off when i see other people say it. But this is BAD folks, REALLY BAD.

[KodyH]

Im sorry that made me laugh lol

I have no choice but to conform im not going to tell the govt to fuckoff. My point is the people that think this is about covering americans are DELUSIONAL. This isnt about covering people, this is about a POWER GRAB. The democrats who have failed us on doing anything to save the economy so far, now control 1/6th of the economy.

this is the first time in years ive actually considered leaving the country, and i hate to say that cause it pisses me off when i see other people say it. But this is BAD folks, REALLY BAD.

Do it. Go to Ireland, because this actually works there. As well as Germany, which you of all people should know, seeing as you have military family. Germany is known for their healthcare and they follow this to a point. You cannot, however, blame this entirely on the government. This is a Democratic Republic, which means its people do affect the way the government is run.

[KodyH]

I agree that we should give people proper healthcare - but this bill does not do that.
Canada and England have documented know issues with providing healthcare. For example, England has an 11% lower survival rate for breat cancer. 55% of UK patients said they had had difficulty getting access to GP care on weekends and nights. The UK also has the worst record for waiting times with 15% having to wait for more than six months for elective treatment. Canada was the next worst on 14%.

So, if England's NHS is so good, why did Wales pull out of it in 1999? And why are more people needing healthcare choosing to move from London to Scotland? Perhaps its because Scotland's 14 regional boards do a better job at providing healthcare?

My family never had issues in London.. Just sayin'
It might be because they were clinics and not a hospital, but still.

[David88vert]

Do it. Go to Ireland, because this actually works there. As well as Germany, which you of all people should know, seeing as you have military family. Germany is known for their healthcare and they follow this to a point. You cannot, however, blame this entirely on the government. This is a Democratic Republic, which means its people do affect the way the government is run.

Ireland - The poorer you are, the more taxpayer-paid coverage that you can receive. It is not equal and fair to all. Not really a problem in my view though on that point.
Waiting lists for those without private insurance can stretch into years - even for critical operations like heart operations. There are tens of thousands of people waiting for their "free" medical services.
Baby aspirin is a prescription drug - and expensive. 30 baby aspirin can cost 10 Irish pounds. Normal aspirin is hard to find in Ireland.
If you wife needs an OB/GYN for a pregnancy, she will likely have to wait 6 months to a year in some areas - of course, the baby should be born in 9 months.
During the winter flu seasons, there are nearly weekly stories of overcrowded emergency facilities with patients lying on gurneys in the halls for periods up to three days.
That said - most are happy with the doctors and nurses. And most people there agree that private insurance is required to get responsive healthcare - its the only way to jump up the line.

Germany's system seems to be better, but I don't know enough details of it to comment on it.

[David88vert]

My family never had issues in London.. Just sayin'
It might be because they were clinics and not a hospital, but still.

That is true here also - less wait time at a clinic than a hospital obviously. Less cost generally also.

[KodyH]

Ireland - The poorer you are, the more taxpayer-paid coverage that you can receive. It is not equal and fair to all. Not really a problem in my view though on that point.
Waiting lists for those without private insurance can stretch into years - even for critical operations like heart operations. There are tens of thousands of people waiting for their "free" medical services.
Baby aspirin is a prescription drug - and expensive. 30 baby aspirin can cost 10 Irish pounds. Normal aspirin is hard to find in Ireland.
If you wife needs an OB/GYN for a pregnancy, she will likely have to wait 6 months to a year in some areas - of course, the baby should be born in 9 months.
During the winter flu seasons, there are nearly weekly stories of overcrowded emergency facilities with patients lying on gurneys in the halls for periods up to three days.
That said - most are happy with the doctors and nurses. And most people there agree that private insurance is required to get responsive healthcare - its the only way to jump up the line.

Germany's system seems to be better, but I don't know enough details of it to comment on it.

Are you speaking from experience? Because I lived there the majority of my short life.

[Paul]

no i dont all my family are retired USAF Veterans who are covered by the military plan for life. I pay for my own insurance , i went 6 years without coverage because small businesses like Mainstream, Batlground cant afford to pay peoples premiums. I totally understand that, thats why they should be allowed to band together. is that even in this bill i know obama talked about it.

Lets look at:
Medicare- BANKRUPT
Medicad- Bankrupt
Peachcare- State provided correct?

Dont change the argument i never said i wasnt for INSURING everyone, this is just not the way to do it. What i would have been behind was attacking the reasons why healthcare is so high in the first place and making it easier and more affordable for people to purchase.

Again its a simple gross difference in ideology , Dems think its a RIGHT that govt needs to provide, republicans think its a right that all people should have a chance to access.

The constitution says LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, not the guarantee of happiness.

I believe like almost all social programs, this will cover people that 1) Could afford healthcare but didnt want to buy it 2) People that are too lazy to make something of themselves to be able to afford it anyway.

The one SMALL SECTION of people, people REALLY working who cant REALLY afford it, well im happy they have coverage..........in 4 years.

I cant wait to see the amount of fraud and abuse when this system gets implemented. This will be the biggest I TOLD YOU SO in history

well VA is still a form of gov healthcare. i'm wondering how attacking the issues is not doing the same... so you are going to put forth regulatory actions against insurance companies? isn't that exactly what your squawking about killing private sector? there is fraud in every system it doesn't matter private/public - what is needed to correct is checks/balances.

you know i'm in the top 5% earners so this isn't more banter from the bottom feeders... i for one can not stand welfare/food stamps/education vouchers, etc... but i still think everyone should have some form of healthcare and something has to be done sooner than later.

[David88vert]

Are you speaking from experience? Because I lived there the majority of my short life.

No, I have not. I only know a few people living there - they all purchase private insurance to get faster access. Like I stated - it seems that most are still happy with their care. In any healthcare system there are going to be issues, that is a given. Ireland started out with less economic strength, so I would imagine that plays a part also (no data at hand on that though - just my opinion). I would not say that the Irish healthcare system is bad though - if the people are still happy with it.

Additionally, you can find all the information you could ever want reported through reputable news outlets.

Perhaps you can clarify what you experienced there. Did it work for your family? Did you run solely on the tax-payer support, or purchase insurance? I would imagine that you parents would have explained their viewpoints to you at least.

[David88vert]

well VA is still a form of gov healthcare. i'm wondering how attacking the issues is not doing the same... so you are going to put forth regulatory actions against insurance companies? isn't that exactly what your squawking about killing private sector? there is fraud in every system it doesn't matter private/public - what is needed to correct is checks/balances.

you know i'm in the top 5% earners so this isn't more banter from the bottom feeders... i for one can not stand welfare/food stamps/education vouchers, etc... but i still think everyone should have some form of healthcare and something has to be done sooner than later.

My father spent significant time in the VA hospital. Speaking from experience, they provided him excellent care for several years. I have no complaints with it.

I agree with the rest of your statement - except that getting this bill in now is not the answer. It was a poorly written bill. The House should have written a better bill and sent it over to the Senate.

[Bajjani]

really what country are you a citizen of that you have gov funded healthcare?
Where did you say anything about being a citizen of said country? I have family in Canada we bring them here when they have serious medical issues

[Gorilla Eg!]

well if the world DOES end is 2012, at least everyone cant complain much longer....LOL

[Bajjani]

Maybe the government can take over some more shit, then I'll just quit and sign up for welfare and get all my shit paid for by you all.

[KodyH]

No, I have not. I only know a few people living there - they all purchase private insurance to get faster access. Like I stated - it seems that most are still happy with their care. In any healthcare system there are going to be issues, that is a given. Ireland started out with less economic strength, so I would imagine that plays a part also (no data at hand on that though - just my opinion). I would not say that the Irish healthcare system is bad though - if the people are still happy with it.

Additionally, you can find all the information you could ever want reported through reputable news outlets.

Perhaps you can clarify what you experienced there. Did it work for your family? Did you run solely on the tax-payer support, or purchase insurance? I would imagine that you parents would have explained their viewpoints to you at least.

Before I was born they had insurance through the state. I had a brother and sister born while they had this and apparently they never received any issues. They ran across a large amount of inheritance a couple years before I was born and bought insurance from a private company for the entire family, which we could use in any country in Europe. A huge plus, hence our experience with clinics in London. Unfortunately I cannot get any more information about this, or their views on the new bill. From what I witnessed, no one in our town had issues with it, but perhaps it is because we were used to it. Ireland has a long way to go though. You were in saying there will be issues, as there are. They are relatively young state, gaining independence in 1949.

All I'm saying is this does work in other countries. Most people only see the bad, not the good. There are issues, but America had issues too.

[Paul]

Where did you say anything about being a citizen of said country? I have family in Canada we bring them here when they have serious medical issues

well you made it sound like you've used such systems first hand... i have friends overseas using such systems as well and they can't complain considering w/o it they would have NO healthcare. i also have friends here who go back to europe to use their gov ran healthcare as it is better and more cost efficient. so this swings both ways in many forms.

[Bajjani]

Before I was born they had insurance through the state. I had a brother and sister born while they had this and apparently they never received any issues. They ran across a large amount of inheritance a couple years before I was born and bought insurance from a private company for the entire family, which we could use in any country in Europe. A huge plus, hence our experience with clinics in London. Unfortunately I cannot get any more information about this, or their views on the new bill. From what I witnessed, no one in our town had issues with it, but perhaps it is because we were used to it. Ireland has a long way to go though. You were in saying there will be issues, as there are. They are relatively young state, gaining independence in 1949.

All I'm saying is this does work in other countries. Most people only see the bad, not the good. There are issues, but America had issues too.


It isn't even just an issue if the healthcare works or not thats what people aren't getting. I have NOTHING against giving people medical insurance. What I have an issue with is the fact that it will hurt our economy more than anyone seems to want to fucking admit.

[Bajjani]

well you made it sound like you've used such systems first hand... i have friends overseas using such systems as well and they can't complain considering w/o it they would have NO healthcare. i also have friends here who go back to europe to use their gov ran healthcare as it is better and more cost efficient. so this swings both ways in many forms.

Paul just because your friends swing every way possible doesn't mean healthcare works :-P

And no, I've never heard success stories from anyone who uses gov't funded healthcare, and I have a ton of friends overseas, I've spent months overseas for soccer and I still talk to a lot of them. Zero, success stories.

[BKgen®]

OMG OMG OMG

Big deal.

I don't support it, or this government... but in all honesty there's not a damned thing you or I can do about it in the big picture. Your choices are really quite simple:

1) make whiny threads like these until your fingers are as beaten and squishy as your vagina.

2) move the fuck away to another country whose government will never do anything to upset your beliefs (good luck with that)

3) shut the fuck up (most effective when followed by #4)

4) kill yourself. (see #3)

[Bajjani]

OMG OMG OMG

Big deal.

I don't support it, or this government... but in all honesty there's not a damned thing you or I can do about it in the big picture. Your choices are really quite simple:

1) make whiny threads like these until your fingers are as beaten and squishy as your vagina.

2) move the fuck away to another country whose government will never do anything to upset your beliefs (good luck with that)

3) shut the fuck up (most effective when followed by #4)

4) kill yourself. (see #3)

Actually, if deemed unconstitutional, this can be fought and won in court. Up yours!

I WIN!

[BKgen®]

lol. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Bajjani]

lol. Let me know how that works out for you.

Oh come on give me credit for at least being right!!

[alpine_aw11]

OMG SOCIALISM WERE ALL GONNA BE BROKE WITHIN A WEEK

[Bajjani]

OMG OMG OMG

Big deal.

I don't support it, or this government... but in all honesty there's not a damned thing you or I can do about it in the big picture. Your choices are really quite simple:

1) make whiny threads like these until your fingers are as beaten and squishy as your vagina.

2) move the fuck away to another country whose government will never do anything to upset your beliefs (good luck with that)

3) shut the fuck up (most effective when followed by #4)

4) kill yourself. (see #3)

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-22/ten-states-plan-lawsuit-over-obama-health-care-bill-update1-.html

This is how it works. Thank youuuuuuu

[xxbckiexx]

Challenges to this bill will come on violating the following sections of the US Constitution:

First Amendment
Fourth Amendment
Fifth Amendment
Ninth Amendment
Tenth Amendment

I think it's a slam-dunk that this bill will end up being deemed unconstitutional.

Just received an email from a friend in the Michigan AG's office. Michigan's AG, Mike Cox announced in a press release that Michigan is joining a lawsuit with Florida and others, to challenge the constitutionality of this new legislation.


Hopefully we can get this shit reversed.

[Bajjani]

Challenges to this bill will come on violating the following sections of the US Constitution:

First Amendment
Fourth Amendment
Fifth Amendment
Ninth Amendment
Tenth Amendment

I think it's a slam-dunk that this bill will end up being deemed unconstitutional.

Just received an email from a friend in the Michigan AG's office. Michigan's AG, Mike Cox announced in a press release that Michigan is joining a lawsuit with Florida and others, to challenge the constitutionality of this new legislation.


Hopefully we can get this shit reversed.

We may have argued before, but thank god you don't agree with the other side on this one.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-22/ten-states-plan-lawsuit-over-obama-health-care-bill-update1-.html
Saw another one that Virginia Univ I think it was is going to file a lawsuit

[xxbckiexx]

We may have argued before, but thank god you don't agree with the other side on this one.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-22/ten-states-plan-lawsuit-over-obama-health-care-bill-update1-.html
Saw another one that Virginia Univ I think it was is going to file a lawsuit

I know right? Whatever side I'm on is always right.. and i wouldnt' want to be the other guy.. on the other side. ;)

Idaho is on board too.

[Bajjani]

I know right? Whatever side I'm on is always right.. and i wouldnt' want to be the other guy.. on the other side. ;)

Idaho is on board too.

Shit I posted the same link I guess I didn't copy the one from the school.

Greedy fuckers its blatant that the "vast majority" of people do not want this bill and on something this fuckin extreme you would think it'd be a requirement. I'm tired of Obama's fucking bullshit a government set to help the people, hes a lying cock sucker

[ISAtlanta300]

They have gov funded healthcare all over the world and it works well - people who say it doesn't work I would love to know how many have been to countries w/ such a system. (and when i say all over the world i mean europe, south america, etc)

Raises hand. And, no.. it does NOT work.

[Shift_2WIN]

OMG OMG OMG

Big deal.

I don't support it, or this government... but in all honesty there's not a damned thing you or I can do about it in the big picture. Your choices are really quite simple:

1) make whiny threads like these until your fingers are as beaten and squishy as your vagina.

2) move the fuck away to another country whose government will never do anything to upset your beliefs (good luck with that)

3) shut the fuck up (most effective when followed by #4)

4) kill yourself. (see #3)
x2 Unless you plan to move to another country, you just like everyone else, has to just deal with it.

[Bajjani]

x2 Unless you plan to move to another country, you just like everyone else, has to just deal with it.

Between the two of you, I bet there is enough lube up your ass to last a lifetime. Please bend over and take it more. First off, the forum is used to voice/rant anything I fucking feel like I want to, so, suck on my balls please. Second, I'd rather voice my opinion than choke on Obama's dick like you two. So HA!

[Vteckidd]

x2 Unless you plan to move to another country, you just like everyone else, has to just deal with it.

Wonder what would have happened if our founding fathers had this attitude..........

Of course we will comply, no one is talking about overthrowing the govt. But to say "just sit there and deal with it" is the exact lazy , lackadaisical attitude that exemplifies OUR generation.

If you agree with the bill, i disagree with you, but at least you stand for something. I think the most disingenuous thing about most people is the "ehhh it wont bother me" attitude. Or the "ehh who cares" attitude. I cant tell you how many people i know that have ZERO clue on what the issues are. Its truly frightening how people are more obsessed with Call Of Duty than their countrys political climate.

It angers me when i see people post stuff like this, its stupid. BE ACTIVE, EDUCATE yourself, whatever your views are. But at least find out what policies mean to you or how they effect other people.

We can debate good vs bad all day long, theres no stopping that. But when i see people who just truly dont care commentating, thats saddening

[Shift_2WIN]

Rather choke on Obama's dick, than get fucked w/o lube and lied to for 8 years like the former POS president. So many ppl are "Oh Obama is bad, he doesn't care, blah, blah" but everyones seems to have forgotten who got us into this whole mess.... We were in a surplus before your beloved Bush came into office. 8 years later we have someone who is trying to change things around and you bitch. Grow your ass up. Whether or not you agree, at least he is TRYING to get us in a different direction, b/c all the last man did was line his pockets with lies. At least he is trying new policies to help move us in the right direction. What did Bush do? "No Child Left Behind"? That shitty ass law left EVERY child left behind, hell they are as dumb as ever now! But no one contested that piece of shit policy. And im sure he reading your rant on this car forum saying "well this young man has a problem with it, so let me change it!" get over your self and deal with it. Life moves on. You need to rant? See a therapist, thats what they are there for.

[Bajjani]

Rather choke on Obama's dick, than get fucked w/o lube and lied to for 8 years like the former POS president. So many ppl are "Oh Obama is bad, he doesn't care, blah, blah" but everyones seems to have forgotten who got us into this whole mess.... We were in a surplus before your beloved Bush came into office. 8 years later we have someone who is trying to change things around and you bitch. Grow your ass up. Whether or not you agree, at least he is TRYING to get us in a different direction, b/c all the last man did was line his pockets with lies. At least he is trying new policies to help move us in the right direction. What did Bush do? "No Child Left Behind"? That shitty ass law left EVERY child left behind, hell they are as dumb as ever now! But no one contested that piece of shit policy. And im sure he reading your rant on this car forum saying "well this young man has a problem with it, so let me change it!" get over your self and deal with it. Life moves on. You need to rant? See a therapist, thats what they are there for.

LoL who the fuck said anything about Bush? Are you comparing who is worse? Do you even realize the consequences of this policy? Do you have ANY idea what you're talking about? Do me a favor, I'll keep ranting on here while you willingly go choke on Obama's dick, I bet you're use to it anyways.

[Vteckidd]

Rather choke on Obama's dick, than get fucked w/o lube and lied to for 8 years like the former POS president. So many ppl are "Oh Obama is bad, he doesn't care, blah, blah" but everyones seems to have forgotten who got us into this whole mess.... We were in a surplus before your beloved Bush came into office. 8 years later we have someone who is trying to change things around and you bitch. Grow your ass up. Whether or not you agree, at least he is TRYING to get us in a different direction, b/c all the last man did was line his pockets with lies. At least he is trying new policies to help move us in the right direction.

AHHH THE BUSH DEFENSE! there it is!

You have no clue what you are talking about. Youre right the Dems had NOTHING to do with this. Barney Frank and Dodd should be thanked. Get a fucking new line, the Blame Bush crap is getting old.

Bush has his share of the blame for sure, but to blame it solely on him, youre an idiot.


What did Bush do? "No Child Left Behind"? That shitty ass law left EVERY child left behind, hell they are as dumb as ever now! But no one contested that piece of shit policy. And im sure he reading your rant on this car forum saying "well this young man has a problem with it, so let me change it!" get over your self and deal with it. Life moves on. You need to rant? See a therapist, thats what they are there for.
Actually you are DEAD fucking wrong, Read ROVEs book


What other LIES did bush do?

[Vteckidd]

Improved test scores

The Department of Education points to the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) results, released in July 2005, showing improved student achievement in reading and math:[9]

* More progress was made by nine-year-olds in reading in the last five years than in the previous 28 years combined.
* America's nine-year-olds posted the best scores in reading (since 1971) and math (since 1973) in the history of the report. America's 13-year-olds earned the highest math scores the test ever recorded.
* Reading and math scores for black and Hispanic nine-year-olds reached an all-time high.
* Achievement gaps in reading and math between white and black nine-year-olds and between white and Hispanic nine-year-olds are at an all-time low.
* Forty-three states and the District of Columbia either improved academically or held steady in all categories (fourth- and eighth-grade reading and fourth- and eighth-grade math)..


NCLB was a good idea and passed with BIPARTISAN support so why arent you criticizing the LEFT who voted OVERWHELMINGLY for this bill. I suppose its more of GEORGE BUSH LIED TO US :

The House of Representatives passed the bill on May 23, 2001 (voting 384-45),[6] and United States Senate passed it on June 14, 2001 (voting 91-8).[7] President Bush signed it into law on January 8, 2002.


Ill use a phrase from Obama," it didnt fix EVERYTHING wrong with the education system but it was a good step"

[Bajjani]

Improved test scores

The Department of Education points to the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) results, released in July 2005, showing improved student achievement in reading and math:[9]

* More progress was made by nine-year-olds in reading in the last five years than in the previous 28 years combined.
* America's nine-year-olds posted the best scores in reading (since 1971) and math (since 1973) in the history of the report. America's 13-year-olds earned the highest math scores the test ever recorded.
* Reading and math scores for black and Hispanic nine-year-olds reached an all-time high.
* Achievement gaps in reading and math between white and black nine-year-olds and between white and Hispanic nine-year-olds are at an all-time low.
* Forty-three states and the District of Columbia either improved academically or held steady in all categories (fourth- and eighth-grade reading and fourth- and eighth-grade math)..


NCLB was a good idea and passed with BIPARTISAN support so why arent you criticizing the LEFT who voted OVERWHELMINGLY for this bill. I suppose its more of GEORGE BUSH LIED TO US :

The House of Representatives passed the bill on May 23, 2001 (voting 384-45),[6] and United States Senate passed it on June 14, 2001 (voting 91-8).[7] President Bush signed it into law on January 8, 2002.


Ill use a phrase from Obama," it didnt fix EVERYTHING wrong with the education system but it was a good step"

First round of beer says he doesn't show back up to counter.

[Paul]

Improved test scores

The Department of Education points to the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) results, released in July 2005, showing improved student achievement in reading and math:[9]

* More progress was made by nine-year-olds in reading in the last five years than in the previous 28 years combined.
* America's nine-year-olds posted the best scores in reading (since 1971) and math (since 1973) in the history of the report. America's 13-year-olds earned the highest math scores the test ever recorded.
* Reading and math scores for black and Hispanic nine-year-olds reached an all-time high.
* Achievement gaps in reading and math between white and black nine-year-olds and between white and Hispanic nine-year-olds are at an all-time low.
* Forty-three states and the District of Columbia either improved academically or held steady in all categories (fourth- and eighth-grade reading and fourth- and eighth-grade math)..


NCLB was a good idea and passed with BIPARTISAN support so why arent you criticizing the LEFT who voted OVERWHELMINGLY for this bill. I suppose its more of GEORGE BUSH LIED TO US :

The House of Representatives passed the bill on May 23, 2001 (voting 384-45),[6] and United States Senate passed it on June 14, 2001 (voting 91-8).[7] President Bush signed it into law on January 8, 2002.


Ill use a phrase from Obama," it didnt fix EVERYTHING wrong with the education system but it was a good step"

No Child Left Behind is an utter failure most teachers will agree as the sole progression is based upon making everyone into that Harvard mold and meeting a specific %. Unfortunately what has happened teachers are forced to push children along until they drop out in HS which if you haven't checked we still have alarming rates... and GA is leading.


Among the findings in the report, "Left Behind in America: The Nation's Dropout Crisis:"

# Nearly one in five U.S. men between the ages of 16 and 24 (18.9 percent) were dropouts in 2007.

# Nearly three of 10 Latinos, including recent immigrants, were dropouts (27.5 percent).

# More than one in five blacks dropped out of school (21 percent). The dropout rate for whites was 12.2 percent.

The dropout situation at the state level was similarly widespread:

# More than one in 10 people ages 16 to 24 years old had dropped out of high school in each of the 12 states surveyed.

# More than one in five 16- to 24-year-olds were dropouts in Florida and Georgia.

# California had the most dropouts of any state (710,000), with a 14.4 percent dropout rate among 16- to 24-year-olds.

# Georgia had the highest dropout rate for this population at 22.1 percent.

[Vteckidd]

No Child Left Behind is an utter failure most teachers will agree as the sole progression is based upon making everyone into that Harvard mold and meeting a specific %. Unfortunately what has happened teachers are forced to push children along until they drop out in HS which if you haven't checked we still have alarming rates... and GA is leading.

No it isnt, like Obama says about Healthcare, its a first step and not the answer to every problem. Actually NCLB was simply a standard that states must test annually their students in reading and math. It meant that a 7th grader had to know how to read, not just pass along for no reason.

[Echonova]

This road will only lead to a global recession and then a one world government to "fix" the problem.




The end is nigh. ~instigate~

[Elbow]

OBAMA FTW

[Paul]

This road will only lead to a global recession and then a one world government to "fix" the problem.




The end is nigh. ~instigate~

NEW WORLD ORDER

http://noilluminati.webs.com/dollar_bill_showing_New_World_Order.gif

OMFG ITS STARTING ........................ EVERYONE TO THE BOMB SHELTERS :D

[§treet_§peed]

Well $2k in bills because of a sore throat isn't too cheap. lol

I had a $5k bill for a infected intestine. I went the at night spent like 3 hours then had to go back the next night because it was fucking up again. Dumb shits at Northeast Georgia Medical Center can't do shit. All this was without a ambulance ride either time.

[David88vert]

This road will only lead to a global recession and then a one world government to "fix" the problem.

Al Gore is ready to volunteer to lead it.

[Bajjani]

Al Gore is ready to volunteer to lead it.

If it snows again, you can call me a liar

[The Ninja]

Maybe you should do some research, and I'm not talk about typing "waiting for healthcare in canada" into Google. If you really want to be set straight, use Skype or something to call a clinic in a major city in Canada, and ask some questions.

[TIGERJC]

The world ends according to the right every time the left does anything

[Bajjani]

Maybe you should do some research, and I'm not talk about typing "waiting for healthcare in canada" into Google. If you really want to be set straight, use Skype or something to call a clinic in a major city in Canada, and ask some questions.

Whos this in reference to?