We are officially screwed

[BanginJimmy]

Well, the health care bill was finally strong armed and bribed through the House after 11pm on a Sunday night. Not a single Republican voted for it and 34 dems voted against it also. We all know what to expect now.

Higher premiums from the additional mandates. Those will probably take affect immediately.

Higher taxes on businesses, especially small ones, these will take affect immediately.

Higher taxes on insurance companies and medical supply companies, making care and, therefore, total health care costs higher, these will take affect immediately.

Massive medicare cuts, pushing an already bankrupt program further into debt.

[japan4racing]

let it be known i voted for mccain.....and let it be known that if they had granted rep. john boehners request for the public vote of each and every representative in that house this would either have a different out come or we would have a list of ppl that will be unemployed by the next election. my insurance has already gone up $10 apay period in the last year..i cant wait to see what its gonna do now....change we can believe in! bullshit!

[Vteckidd]

God bless John boehner, I'm glad he had the balls to say what he did.

Dems are fucked, I will take any bet with any liberal that unemployment will rise as taxes and businesses run for the hills to save their business. I will bet this raises premiums, I will bet it puts private insurances out of business. This is a step toward single payer and a power grab

it will be repealed IMO by 2014 or we will be so broke and unemployed it won't matter

[BanginJimmy]

This bill will have a HUGE negative effect on small businesses. The additional taxes levied on them will alone push unemployment over 11% almost immediately after the govt starts taxing them and I dont think 15% is out of the question by the time benefits actually start.

I really do hope its repealed before 2014, but I honestly dont think its out of the realm of possibility to see better than 2:1 GOP in the house by 2014.

[japan4racing]

so in the first year or so obama has spent (borrowed) what $2 trillion now? unemployment is higher than it has been in 20+ years and we are better how? oh yeah.....we are gonna save $180 billion in 10 years....and 12% more ppl will have insurance...now thats some change!

[psychodrama_81]

It's sad that my roommate swears by him and is EXCITED to see it pass.....but I'm just waiting to see what happens. She thinks she knows but she has no idea. Hope she doesn't have to go to the doctor often....

[Vteckidd]

The deficit neutral stuff is all bullshit , 6 years of benefits 10 years of taxes, smoke and mirrors

[BanginJimmy]

950B over 10 years works out to average 95B a year in additional spending. For the sake of argument we will say that 20%(190B) will be spent over the next 4 years to set up the new administration and beaurcracies. That leaves 760B(~125B a year) over the next 6 years with maybe 4 of those fully up and running. Now we look at the actual number and we see what this thing will cost in a best case scenerio. My guess is that by 2018 (4 years after the start of benefits) we will see this entitlement costing upwards of 200B per year and growing at a constant rate.

[punkr6]

This is a lot worse then most people think. Be ready people, it's gonna get a lot worse and there is no hope in sight....

[Vteckidd]

oh and they piggybacked the complete takeover of student loans now

[BanginJimmy]

And who knows what else. We.haven't been allowed to see the final versions of any of these bills yet.

But don't forget, 1 state has retained the right to furnish student loans. I believe it was North Dakota or something like that. I will let you guess how those corrupted bastards voted.

I have never seen such obvious bribery in my life. If a private business offered a member of the house a nice cush job in exchange for their vote, both the congressman and someone from the business would be looking at jail time. Its ok though if it is the president doing it though. The same goes for all the others that litterally sold their vote to Obama. I truely hope the GOP starts an investigation and indicts all of them, from the president down, on charges of bribery and whatever else.

[punkr6]

God bless John boehner

AMEN brother....

[Vteckidd]

And who knows what else. We.haven't been allowed to see the final versions of any of these bills yet.

But don't forget, 1 state has retained the right to furnish student loans. I believe it was North Dakota or something like that. I will let you guess how those corrupted bastards voted.

I have never seen such obvious bribery in my life. If a private business offered a member of the house a nice cush job in exchange for their vote, both the congressman and someone from the business would be looking at jail time. Its ok though if it is the president doing it though. The same goes for all the others that litterally sold their vote to Obama. I truely hope the GOP starts an investigation and indicts all of them, from the president down, on charges of bribery and whatever else.

This isnt over it will be tied up in the courts long before they start carrying paying out any benefits. Furthermore, i expect tomorrow you will see a dramatic increase in states passing initiatives to not follow the Federal Govt mandate for health insurance.

I know im going out on a limb here, but with State coffers already empty, we may see the biggest rift between the Federal Govt and states since the Civil War

[Terror]

Is there somewhere I can get more information on both sides? I dont follow politics, but I hear 1/2 people stoked that it past and the other 1/2 claiming its the end of the world...

some cliff notes for why they would do this if its such a negative impact? pro's, cons?

[BanginJimmy]

I honestly don't know of any place that is reporting this without a lot of spin on it. I've learned a lot about it from keeping track on it since it started.

Is there anything in particuliar you want to know?

[Vteckidd]

Republican Cliffs:
Doesnt reduce cost at all
Adds to the deficit
Raises taxes on small business (by requiring them to provide healthcare to their employees)
Mandates that all people must carry health insurance or pay a penalty of $325 1st year, $700 second year, if you make over XXX money you pay 2.5% of your income in a "fine" if you decline healthcare
Extends healthcare to illegal immigrants (even though they wont tell you that)
Grows govt even more and now the govt will regulate how much the insurance companies can charge (IE kills their 8% profit margin they see as an average now, forces them out of business)
Creates govt "healthcare insurance pool" which will be cheaper than the private companies forcing people to obviously pick the "cheaper" plan IE GOVT, which forces insurance companies out of business, and doctors will stop using insurance providers that can no longer compete with the govt
Rationing care, 30-35 million people will instantly enter the healthcare system without adding additional staff or facilities like hospitals or doctors
Doctors will see a huge paycut as the govt will dictate to them how much they can be paid for certain procedures under their govt "healthcare pool"
500 billion in medicare cuts gets redictributed to other aspects of the bill so they are cutting money to doctors, seniors to fund other aspects of the program
Tons of backdoor deals to buy peoples votes. Democrats had trouble getting a majority to pass their versions of the bill (even though they had complete control of congress) so they brokered "sweetheart" deals to get people on board. Certain states and representatives are exempt from taxes in the bill, or get special treatment in turn for voting "yes". Google Cornhusker Kickback, Louisiana Purchase, or Healthcare Sweetheart Deals


Dems Cliffs:
Everyone has healthcare now
They believe it will lower premiums but only on the fact that the GOVT POOL will be cheaper than the insurance companies. They think that this will keep the "insurance companies honest". What is flawed in their logic is that the insurance companies dont make a huge profit as it is, and the fed govt can operate at trillions of dollars in the hole and just keep printing money to sustain a program, insurance companies cannot. Also they will be regulating the very companies they will be "competing" with
Bans pre-existing conditions from being "uninsurable"
Children get to stay on their healthcare program of their parents until 26 instead of 23

Things unknown:
Dems said they would explore allowing people to buy insurance across state lines, but when private companies go out of business it will be a moot point
Dems said they would allow exploration of a new agency to root out medicare and medicaide fraud, but havent outlined how they will do it
The bill calls for 10 years of TAXES, but only 6 years of benefits. Meaning they will start taxing NOW, but you cannot get healthcare until 2014.

[SlowEG9]

Republican Cliffs:
Doesnt reduce cost at all
Adds to the deficit
Raises taxes on small business (by requiring them to provide healthcare to their employees)
Mandates that all people must carry health insurance or pay a penalty of $325 1st year, $700 second year, if you make over XXX money you pay 2.5% of your income in a "fine" if you decline healthcare
Extends healthcare to illegal immigrants (even though they wont tell you that)
Grows govt even more and now the govt will regulate how much the insurance companies can charge (IE kills their 8% profit margin they see as an average now, forces them out of business)
Creates govt "healthcare insurance pool" which will be cheaper than the private companies forcing people to obviously pick the "cheaper" plan IE GOVT, which forces insurance companies out of business, and doctors will stop using insurance providers that can no longer compete with the govt
Rationing care, 30-35 million people will instantly enter the healthcare system without adding additional staff or facilities like hospitals or doctors
Doctors will see a huge paycut as the govt will dictate to them how much they can be paid for certain procedures under their govt "healthcare pool"
500 billion in medicare cuts gets redictributed to other aspects of the bill so they are cutting money to doctors, seniors to fund other aspects of the program
Tons of backdoor deals to buy peoples votes. Democrats had trouble getting a majority to pass their versions of the bill (even though they had complete control of congress) so they brokered "sweetheart" deals to get people on board. Certain states and representatives are exempt from taxes in the bill, or get special treatment in turn for voting "yes". Google Cornhusker Kickback, Louisiana Purchase, or Healthcare Sweetheart Deals


Dems Cliffs:
Everyone has healthcare now
They believe it will lower premiums but only on the fact that the GOVT POOL will be cheaper than the insurance companies. They think that this will keep the "insurance companies honest". What is flawed in their logic is that the insurance companies dont make a huge profit as it is, and the fed govt can operate at trillions of dollars in the hole and just keep printing money to sustain a program, insurance companies cannot. Also they will be regulating the very companies they will be "competing" with
Bans pre-existing conditions from being "uninsurable"
Children get to stay on their healthcare program of their parents until 26 instead of 23

Things unknown:
Dems said they would explore allowing people to buy insurance across state lines, but when private companies go out of business it will be a moot point
Dems said they would allow exploration of a new agency to root out medicare and medicaide fraud, but havent outlined how they will do it
The bill calls for 10 years of TAXES, but only 6 years of benefits. Meaning they will start taxing NOW, but you cannot get healthcare until 2014.

I haven't paid much attention to either side recently but will that grant part time workers health insurance?

There is honestly only one benefit i could ever see out of this...That's the ability to make people without insurance be turned down or pay..

I personally dont have insurance by choice due to me not ever really getting sick but when I do, I come out of pocket happily without bitching

[BanginJimmy]

I haven't paid much attention to either side recently but will that grant part time workers health insurance?

According to dems, health coverage is a right, not a benefit. Therefore a company should be required to offer health insurance to everyone or pay a fine of 8% of total payroll.


There is honestly only one benefit i could ever see out of this...That's the ability to make people without insurance be turned down or pay..

But you cannot be turned down for insurance. Even if I have cancer, if I go to an insurance company they HAVE to cover me and they cannot cjarge me more for that coverage.


I personally dont have insurance by choice due to me not ever really getting sick but when I do, I come out of pocket happily without bitching

Well you will be coming out of pocket by about another 700 year now, even if you don't step foot in a doc's office all year. The good news is that if anything does come up you can just drop a month's premium on an insurer's desk and stick them wity the bills.

[SlowEG9]

According to dems, health coverage is a right, not a benefit. Therefore a company should be required to offer health insurance to everyone or pay a fine of 8% of total payroll.



But you cannot be turned down for insurance. Even if I have cancer, if I go to an insurance company they HAVE to cover me and they cannot cjarge me more for that coverage.



Well you will be coming out of pocket by about another 700 year now, even if you don't step foot in a doc's office all year. The good news is that if anything does come up you can just drop a month's premium on an insurer's desk and stick them wity the bills.

I'm not real sure on how to do the mulit qoute but

1. What do Dems propose insurance be called now if not a "benefit"? Are these costs going to get paid 100% by companys or passed along to the worker who makes minimum wage already?

2. I didn't mean in my first post insurance companys turning people down. I meant the ability for hospitals to turn down people...Seems like if a law is passed stating you must have insurance, it would just seem to fit (playing devils advocate) that hospitals would no longer HAVE to treat uninsured.

3. Third part of that seems almost awesome to that degree though. Im not even going to lie. However, say I work for Cocacola...if I pass my registration for group benefits, is there any proposed change to that either?


I just find it slightly ironic that the people who are WANTING this law, don't make enough to pay for insurance anyway...I can go get blue cross (last i looked) for under $200 a month. It seems like for those who are wanting the health care, they don't understand what its going to take to get it there...

[BanginJimmy]

I'm not real sure on how to do the mulit qoute but

1. What do Dems propose insurance be called now if not a "benefit"? Are these costs going to get paid 100% by companys or passed along to the worker who makes minimum wage already?

The companies will pass as much of the cost as they can onto customers, but in the end it will definitely result in small businesses cutting jobs. As I said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see unemployment jump to over 11% in very short order.


2. I didn't mean in my first post insurance companys turning people down. I meant the ability for hospitals to turn down people...Seems like if a law is passed stating you must have insurance, it would just seem to fit (playing devils advocate) that hospitals would no longer HAVE to treat uninsured.

Hospitals will still be required to treat everyone that walks in the door.


3. Third part of that seems almost awesome to that degree though. Im not even going to lie. However, say I work for Cocacola...if I pass my registration for group benefits, is there any proposed change to that either?

It is nice if you want to game the system, which people will definitely do.

I work for a major corporation and my benefits will be hit hard by the cadillac tax.pretty much everyone that currently has coverage will see a rise in rates and at the same time a degredation of benefits.



I just find it slightly ironic that the people who are WANTING this law, don't make enough to pay for insurance anyway...I can go get blue cross (last i looked) for under $200 a month. It seems like for those who are wanting the health care, they don't understand what its going to take to get it there...

The whole point of this thing is a power grab. An expansion of entitlements is simply a way to buy votes.

[SlowEG9]

Damn i just typed a decent response and clicked the wrong button..I will retype it later but ultimately the only vote that needs to be done should be impeachment

[David88vert]

Ok, here is a question that was posed to me about this bill that I am not 100% sure of.

"Under this new bill, we are required to pay for insurance, or incure a fine. It is my understanding that the fine is under $400 per year. It is also understood that with the passage of this bill, insurance carriers cannot refuse to cover you for pre-existing conditions. So, can I just pay the fine year-after-year, and then get medical insurance when I get diagnosed with something that I need insurance for (cancer, disease, etc.)?"

Anyone know how that situation would work out?

[tony]

When Romney instituted a similar plan in Mass. yes, a number of people took the fine rather than coverage. Expect the fine to get steeper to detour that kind of practice. Do I agree with the whole insurance mandate? Not the way its structured but anyone who feels that health reform wasn't needed is badly misguided.

As I've stated before the bill would pass and it did. If this is how you guys grieve over something that affects you on a small basis versus that person who can now get coverage and possibly life changing treatment then so be it, I refuse to go there with the whole "we are officially screwed" sentiment. Let the process play itself out and if it doesn't work I'm sure the course will change. Your party fucked itself in 2008 and this is the result, point the finger at the Democrats if you want but because you expect less of your party, democrats took control. That is half the problem with the state of mind in this country today, the lack of accountability versus the amount of finger pointing. Continue the whining.. this is actually enjoyable.

[David88vert]

When Romney instituted a similar plan in Mass. yes, a number of people took the fine rather than coverage. Expect the fine to get steeper to detour that kind of practice. Do I agree with the whole insurance mandate? Not the way its structured but anyone who feels that health reform wasn't needed is badly misguided.

As I've stated before the bill would pass and it did. If this is how you guys grieve over something that affects you on a small basis versus that person who can now get coverage and possibly life changing treatment then so be it, I refuse to go there with the whole "we are officially screwed" sentiment. Let the process play itself out and if it doesn't work I'm sure the course will change. Your party fucked itself in 2008 and this is the result, point the finger at the Democrats if you want but because you expect less of your party, democrats took control. That is half the problem with the state of mind in this country today, the lack of accountability versus the amount of finger pointing. Continue the whining.. this is actually enjoyable.

So, we already know that it didn't work in Mass., and they still wanted to push THIS bill through? Just for the sake of saying that they were reforming healthcare? That doesn't sound like they wanted to serve their constituents, but rather were posturing to their platform committees.

This bill actually affects me personally in a negative way. I gain no benefits, but will experience longer waits, less available testing, and higher taxes - and that is if the rates and costs do NOT rise.

As for helping the people, I have a friend whose wife was diagnosed with cancer. Medicare was going to cover the treatment costs - now, Medicare will loose $500 billion to this new program - which will not provide benefits to cover cancer treatments for 4 more years. With the additional 21% Medicare rate reduction already taking place, she has been warned that treatment may have to be postponed. If this happens, at the current rate of the cancer growth, it is unlikely that she will survive 4 years, and will leave her 7 year old without a mother. That's here and now - the Democrats are not saving lives - they are condemning them.

BTW - I am not a Republican, nor a Democrat, so you can forget that "your party" crap. Last I checked, I was an American, and so are you. Our representatives should be representing our American interests, not party platforms.

[nreggie454]

Everybody and their retarded sister knows that health care reform was needed. However, this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay further than we needed to go. The dems tried to fix something to the extent that it is now worse than it was before.

[SPOOLIN]

37 states are already filing injunctions against the Fed Government over this. GA is one of them. FUCK Obama and his bullshit. Worst fucking President in the last 3 decades.

[Total_Blender]

I'll make my gloating brief...


God bless John boehner, I'm glad he had the balls to say what he did.


In order for that to happen, God would have to, you know... exist. :taun:

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

I listened to Boehner bitch and gripe for what seemed like half an hour last night. Then he requested that the vote be counted one-by-one. What a bunch of shit... anyone with an internet connection or a library card can see how their representatives voted. The GOP just wanted to stall the process as long as possible (so they could then say it wasn't passed until after Midnight or whatever).

I don't see how they could claim they didn't have any input when:

1.) They didn't want the public option (as in the House Bill), so it was axed.
2.) They didn't want "advanced directives, (or Death Panels, depending on your ideological bent)" so those got cut as well.
3.) The legislation very specifically says there will be no federal funding of abortions.



As for helping the people, I have a friend whose wife was diagnosed with cancer. Medicare was going to cover the treatment costs - now, Medicare will loose $500 billion to this new program - which will not provide benefits to cover cancer treatments for 4 more years. With the additional 21% Medicare rate reduction already taking place, she has been warned that treatment may have to be postponed. If this happens, at the current rate of the cancer growth, it is unlikely that she will survive 4 years, and will leave her 7 year old without a mother. That's here and now - the Democrats are not saving lives - they are condemning them.
.

The cuts to Medicare are the Medicare Advantage program which is a "Cadillac" version of medicare offered to seniors that includes things like gym memberships, etc. They are going to do away with that and put everyone who was on it on regular medicare.

There are also provisions for those who have "pre-existing conditions" to get into the system sooner than the rest of us healthy folk. So theres that.

Also, people with pre-existing conditions will no longer have to lie about their conditions in order to obtain coverage. so this will work toward reducing all that "waste, fraud, and abuse" you guys are always whining about.

So the people who voted the democrats into the majority were well served. The Democrats passed Democratic legislation in the interests of their constituents. The Representatives who serve you all (Gingrey, Broun, Price, Linder, etc) served your interests by attempting to obstruct it at every juncture. I really don't see how you all would make much of an impact in the 2012 election as you all are mostly in districts that are already Republican.

[David88vert]

I listened to Boehner...

The cuts to Medicare are the Medicare Advantage program which is a "Cadillac" version of medicare offered to seniors that includes things like gym memberships, etc. They are going to do away with that and put everyone who was on it on regular medicare.

There are also provisions for those who have "pre-existing conditions" to get into the system sooner than the rest of us healthy folk. So theres that.

Also, people with pre-existing conditions will no longer have to lie about their conditions in order to obtain coverage. so this will work toward reducing all that "waste, fraud, and abuse" you guys are always whining about.

So the people who voted the democrats into the majority were well served. The Democrats passed Democratic legislation in the interests of their constituents. The Representatives who serve you all (Gingrey, Broun, Price, Linder, etc) served your interests by attempting to obstruct it at every juncture. I really don't see how you all would make much of an impact in the 2012 election as you all are mostly in districts that are already Republican.

I agree that the Republicans were just delaying the vote. I did not agree with that tactic. My opinion is that they just should have made their motions and then votes without all of the extra comments.

I am not served by the Republicans. I am in the district of Hank Johnson, who I attempted to contact many times over many weeks - and only received automated responses. He did not make an effort to listen to his constituents. He based his decision on the decision of Democratic platform and Pelosi to push this bill through against the will of the American people, not the opinion of the people that he is supposed to represent.

Guess which way I am leaning this morning?

[tony]

Guess which way I am leaning this morning?

the same way you usually lean?

[BanginJimmy]

If all of these Congressmen and women were voting with their constituency, why are so many so far behind in all of the polls that have done in the last couple months?

[Vteckidd]

If all of these Congressmen and women were voting with their constituency, why are so many so far behind in all of the polls that have done in the last couple months?

BECAUSE OF FUCKING GEORGE BUSH, THATS WHY :P

[David88vert]

the same way you usually lean?

Nope - normally, I am leaned back in my chair - today I'm tilted towards the right. :-p

I have actually agreed with, supported, and prompted Hank Johnson (D) in the past. This is a major issue to me though, and I will evaluate all candidates in the next election cycle (although yes, this is normal for me). There is a strong possibility that he will not receive my vote in the next election.

[tony]

Polls polls polls, when Obama was ahead of McCain in the polls they didnt matter now all of a sudden the poll numbers are golden.

[BanginJimmy]

GOP will have solid control of the house after the midterms and will be right about even in the Senate. With a little bit of luck GOP can win a few of thw court battles that are going to start tomorrow and force a re-wright of certain portions. If they can do that, they may be able to drag it out til the elections and kill this monster for good.

[MachNU]

All I have to say is for such a great plan, why did it require so many bribes to get it?

[BanginJimmy]

Polls polls polls, when Obama was ahead of McCain in the polls they didnt matter now all of a sudden the poll numbers are golden.

Then how about we use the sentiment expressed during the town halls last summer as a guage of public support?

[tony]

All I have to say is for such a great plan, why did it require so many bribes to get it?

What legislation doesn't?

[David88vert]

Polls polls polls, when Obama was ahead of McCain in the polls they didnt matter now all of a sudden the poll numbers are golden.

Obviously, those poll numbers were correct, so based upon that, we should believe that the poll numbers are correct again - and that the House voted based upon the input from the Democratic Party leadership, rather than the will of the American people, their constituents.

[David88vert]

GOP will have solid control of the house after the midterms and will be right about even in the Senate. With a little bit of luck GOP can win a few of thw court battles that are going to start tomorrow and force a re-wright of certain portions. If they can do that, they may be able to drag it out til the elections and kill this monster for good.

I do not think that they will kill this bill. They will amend it, modify it, etc, but it is here to stay.

[David88vert]

What legislation doesn't?

Unfortunately, this is truth.

It seems that current legistation is pushed through Congress against the will of the people by lobbyists, party platforms, and the President (not just Obama either).

[tony]

Then how about we use the sentiment expressed during the town halls last summer as a guage of public support?

Heres my problem with the Tea Party movement, these town halls, or whatever and also leads me to believe that the opposition gets attention because the media gives it to them, not because they are significant in numbers. Look at the simple demographics of the opposition and then look at the demographics of the United States today, the two don't match up. As shown in the previous election minority vote is significant, and not just black vote. Latino vote, Arab Americans, Asians, whatever but none of these groups show up at these rallies in significant numbers to oppose the current administration, to be frank what you see is mostly angry whites. It is because of this that I cannot say that they have a significant amount of influence politically.

When Fox news has to play up the numbers at Tea Party rallies I can tell what is really going on and regardless of what polls say. When the Republican party does little to evolve with the times and continue to fight for the status quo, this is why you have such a large number of independent voters. When the right doesn't do anything to remove their selves from the protestors this past weekend yelling out racial slurs and other ignorant statements, I do not take that side seriously.

Know what is coming next? A path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and with that will come a bolstered voting base for the Democratic party. They are able to do this because they have evolved regardless of how asinine their platform may be. Point the finger at the left if you want but they get it and Republicans don't.

[BanginJimmy]

Heres my problem with the Tea Party movement, these town halls, or whatever and also leads me to believe that the opposition gets attention because the media gives it to them, not because they are significant in numbers. Look at the simple demographics of the opposition and then look at the demographics of the United States today, the two don't match up. As shown in the previous election minority vote is significant, and not just black vote. Latino vote, Arab Americans, Asians, whatever but none of these groups show up at these rallies in significant numbers to oppose the current administration, to be frank what you see is mostly angry whites. It is because of this that I cannot say that they have a significant amount of influence politically.

What makes you think they arent significant in number? What makes you think that the people that want this horrid bill make up even 1% of the American voters? Dems are in power right now because Bush was a PR nightmare for the GOP. Hell, just look at the current favorability of the dems in congress right now. They had everything going for them for the last 3 years and they found a way to squander it away.

Yes, most of the people you see right now are angry whites, but what does that really prove? When you look at those that are for this, you dont see any different. All that says to me is that whites are more politically active than minorities, nothing more, nothing less.


When Fox news has to play up the numbers at Tea Party rallies I can tell what is really going on and regardless of what polls say. When the Republican party does little to evolve with the times and continue to fight for the status quo, this is why you have such a large number of independent voters. When the right doesn't do anything to remove their selves from the protestors this past weekend yelling out racial slurs and other ignorant statements, I do not take that side seriously.

You say that Fox inflates numbers, where is your proof? MSNBC or CNN? The same organizations that have their credibility riding on Obama's success? Thats no different than asking a climate change scientist if climate change is real or not. They have absolutely zero credibility because they have an obvious agenda.

I agree with you that there is no real for anything racial being said, but at the same time I really dont care. Those same people that were slured to are the ones that have been calling anyone that doesnt fall in line with Obama and the dem ideology a terrorist, a nazi, or a McVeigh wanna be. While I dont think its right, a part of me says they are just getting back what they have been spewing for the last 8 months.


Know what is coming next? A path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and with that will come a bolstered voting base for the Democratic party. They are able to do this because they have evolved regardless of how asinine their platform may be. Point the finger at the left if you want but they get it and Republicans don't.

I agree with you. The dems know they lost the independent vote with their socialist agenda. Now they need to supplant them with criminals. Then again, leave it to the dems to ignore the fact that programs have failed in the past cause they can try it again.

I agree with you that there is no reason for anything racial, but to tell you the truth I really dont care about it either. These people are the same ones that have been calling anyone that didnt fall in lock step with Obama and the dems everything from terrorists to Nazi's, to McVeigh wanna be's.

[stillaneon]

Heres my problem with the Tea Party movement, these town halls, or whatever and also leads me to believe that the opposition gets attention because the media gives it to them, not because they are significant in numbers. Look at the simple demographics of the opposition and then look at the demographics of the United States today, the two don't match up. As shown in the previous election minority vote is significant, and not just black vote. Latino vote, Arab Americans, Asians, whatever but none of these groups show up at these rallies in significant numbers to oppose the current administration, to be frank what you see is mostly angry whites. It is because of this that I cannot say that they have a significant amount of influence politically.

When Fox news has to play up the numbers at Tea Party rallies I can tell what is really going on and regardless of what polls say. When the Republican party does little to evolve with the times and continue to fight for the status quo, this is why you have such a large number of independent voters. When the right doesn't do anything to remove their selves from the protestors this past weekend yelling out racial slurs and other ignorant statements, I do not take that side seriously.

Know what is coming next? A path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and with that will come a bolstered voting base for the Democratic party. They are able to do this because they have evolved regardless of how asinine their platform may be. Point the finger at the left if you want but they get it and Republicans don't.

Damn right it is.

The health Care reform and this new path to citizenship will all pass before 2012, so the left can secure a re-election by all the people who think that this health-care reform and their new citizens. Then byt he time people realize how horrible everything has become, Obama will be stepping out of office to pass it on to the republicans to fix.

Like was previously stated, The ONLY people who would have voted for this reform, would have been the people who couldn't afford Health Insurance.

We need to set it up so the only people who vote in major elections are property or business owners. I promise that a lot of these issues would work themselves out if the majority of the voters were intelligent and business minded..

[Vteckidd]

Unfortunately, this is truth.

It seems that current legistation is pushed through Congress against the will of the people by lobbyists, party platforms, and the President (not just Obama either).

Again i ask, just cause it happens PREVIOUSLY , doesnt make it right NOW. I mean here is OBAMA saying "CHANGE!" , CHANGE WASHINGTON, POLITICS OF OLD ARE OVER!

But yet EVERY FUCKING ARGUMENT by the left is "WELL SHIT IT WAS DONE BEFORE! BUSH DID IT"

Do they not realize how absolutely retarded and stupid they sound? I would think if they were the party of change and SUPER MAJORITYs in both sides of congress, they could have REALLY changed politics. But they didnt

[Vteckidd]

Know what is coming next? A path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and with that will come a bolstered voting base for the Democratic party. They are able to do this because they have evolved regardless of how asinine their platform may be. Point the finger at the left if you want but they get it and Republicans don't.

I guess buying votes is what this country is all about, and that is truly sad. Dems get that they can lie cheat and steal and bribe to get what they want. If you stand for that, good luck. Republicans arent innocent by any means, but this is as bad as its ever been in my memory

[Total_Blender]

{quote=BanginJimmy]
Those same people that were slured to are the ones that have been calling anyone that doesnt fall in line with Obama and the dem ideology a terrorist, a nazi, or a McVeigh wanna be. While I dont think its right, a part of me says they are just getting back what they have been spewing for the last 8 months. [/quote]

I didn't say every teabagger was a terrorist/Nazzie/McVeigh wannabee. Just Alex Jones and his followers. And maybe Rush and Beck. :lmfao:

I heard Rush said he will be leaving the country if health care was passed. Later dude!! Don't let the door hit your stank ass on the way out!! :cheers:

[tony]

We need to set it up so the only people who vote in major elections are property or business owners. I promise that a lot of these issues would work themselves out if the majority of the voters were intelligent and business minded..

Kind of like an elite society right? Forget the people who might just be blue collar workers, why should they matter? Yes, discriminating based on social status really sounds like the solution. I'd love to see the politician that goes along with that proposal.


I guess buying votes is what this country is all about, and that is truly sad. Dems get that they can lie cheat and steal and bribe to get what they want. If you stand for that, good luck. Republicans arent innocent by any means, but this is as bad as its ever been in my memory

I have a liberal friend that I debate with all of the time, he's so adamant that Democrats should have absolute power over Congress and the Executive office and I try to explain to him that no matter who it is, absolute power corrupts. I've sided with Democrats on issues and I've sided with Republicans, somewhere in between there is common sense but if Republicans don't get their head out their asses and stop dealing in past tense rather than present day they will seal their fate.

[Vteckidd]

Kind of like an elite society right? Forget the people who might just be blue collar workers, why should they matter? Yes, discriminating based on social status really sounds like the solution. I'd love to see the politician that goes along with that proposal.

Didnt they try this in England and most of europe for awhile oh i dont know 400 years ago lol Hell lets go to a CASTE system HAHA




I have a liberal friend that I debate with all of the time, he's so adamant that Democrats should have absolute power over Congress and the Executive office and I try to explain to him that no matter who it is, absolute power corrupts. I've sided with Democrats on issues and I've sided with Republicans, somewhere in between there is common sense but if Republicans don't get their head out their asses and stop dealing in past tense rather than present day they will seal their fate.

While i disagree with peoples views at least you are engaged in the debate. As i said, i can list 1000 reasons im right, you can list 1000 reasons youre right, time will tell.

I disagree with the last part, i think the MAJORITY of this country is center right, and as i posted in a different thread, Obama won by 10 million votes or less than 8% of the total population WHO voted, and less than 5% of the TOTAL VOTING POPULATION (registered voters). He won decisively, but it wasnt a mandate on Left wing agenda IMO. It was a referendum on BUSH and mccain just wasnt a viable front runner. I think the majority of people in this country see this as a bad thing. They see it as a GOVT who cannot control themselves, spend money they cant account for, a massive entitlement program the likes of which we have never seen before passed in a way that was sleazy, it IMO is unconstitutional, etc etc etc. I think the Democrats will pay a hefty price and seal their fate come the next 2 elections.

That is if the republicans dont fuck it up. However, just as the Dems seem drunk on power now, i think its necessary to also say that the people need to stay engaged and not let it ever get like this again.

[bu villain]

We need to set it up so the only people who vote in major elections are property or business owners. I promise that a lot of these issues would work themselves out if the majority of the voters were intelligent and business minded..

My hat is off to you sir. You are quite courageous for taking the unpopular position of supporting elitism and disenfranchising a vast number of Americans.

[bodhi]

i dont follow politics as deeply as others here, but i can say this....
the shit we had going so far isnt working, so this shit they just passed cant be any worse.

people are dying left and right with the current healthcare setup, so if people die left and right with this new one, no harm no foul

[stillaneon]

Kind of like an elite society right? Forget the people who might just be blue collar workers, why should they matter? Yes, discriminating based on social status really sounds like the solution. I'd love to see the politician that goes along with that proposal.


Then let's meet in the middle? Seems to me that if you don't pay taxes or recieve a substancial amount of assistance from the government, then you don't deserve the right to vote. Not being a biggot, because I sure am not wealthy, but to allow the people who are contributing nothing, vote (and this time around a good number did so based purely on Race) seems idiotic.

I don't think it's fair to say that blue collar workers can't vote, but there needs to be new guidelines, based purely on the idea that the nation is a business...

[Browning151]

Then let's meet in the middle? Seems to me that if you don't pay taxes or recieve a substancial amount of assistance from the government, then you don't deserve the right to vote. Not being a biggot, because I sure am not wealthy, but to allow the people who are contributing nothing, vote (and this time around a good number did so based purely on Race) seems idiotic.

I don't think it's fair to say that blue collar workers can't vote, but there needs to be new guidelines, based purely on the idea that the nation is a business...

I agree to a point, however I think a better way to go about it would be something like a "civics" test that would require that people to have a basic understanding of our political system, how it works, why it's setup the way it is as well as a basic understanding of simple economics and our economy. There is a great deal of people out there who truly think that the govt can provide "free" healthcare, and sustain entitlement programs indefintely with no real way to pay for them. Nothing is free, and there are some people who absolutely cannot grasp that concept.

[stillaneon]

I agree to a point, however I think a better way to go about it would be something like a "civics" test that would require that people to have a basic understanding of our political system, how it works, why it's setup the way it is as well as a basic understanding of simple economics and our economy. There is a great deal of people out there who truly think that the govt can provide "free" healthcare, and sustain entitlement programs indefintely with no real way to pay for them. Nothing is free, and there are some people who absolutely cannot grasp that concept.

That will work about as well as telling everyone to fill out their Census packet...

[Vteckidd]

i dont follow politics as deeply as others here, but i can say this....
the shit we had going so far isnt working, so this shit they just passed cant be any worse.

people are dying left and right with the current healthcare setup, so if people die left and right with this new one, no harm no foul

bullshit then why are we ranked #1 in the world?

Again the fundamental argument isn't against reform, it's reform that destroys te economy and the quality of care I am against

[Total_Blender]

You all do realize that if they implemented a civics/literacy test like in the days of old, that pretty much all of the teabaggers would be denied their votes too, right? :taun:

http://www.doic.net/halfwit/photo-get-a-brain-morans.jpg

[Browning151]

That will work about as well as telling everyone to fill out their Census packet...

Haha I agree, it's just annoying that so many people go out and vote that have absolutely no clue what is going on.

[Browning151]

You all do realize that if they implemented a civics/literacy test like in the days of old, that pretty much all of the teabaggers would be denied their votes too, right? :taun:

http://www.doic.net/halfwit/photo-get-a-brain-morans.jpg

That would not bother me at all. I'm not a "teabagger", a republican or a democrat. The fewer ignorant people voting, on either side of the aisle, the better.

[stillaneon]

You all do realize that if they implemented a civics/literacy test like in the days of old, that pretty much all of the teabaggers would be denied their votes too, right? :taun:

http://www.doic.net/halfwit/photo-get-a-brain-morans.jpg

Sounds good to me...

[David88vert]

There is a great deal of people out there who truly think that the govt can provide "free" healthcare, and sustain entitlement programs indefintely with no real way to pay for them. Nothing is free, and there are some people who absolutely cannot grasp that concept.

We call these people Democrats and put them to work for us in the Capitol.

[David88vert]

You all do realize that if they implemented a civics/literacy test like in the days of old, that pretty much all of the teabaggers would be denied their votes too, right? :taun:


And they would be among the majority of the country - including immigrants, minorities, etc. More people would fail than people realize.

Yes, it should be required to learn and understand the basics at minimum.

[BanginJimmy]

i dont follow politics as deeply as others here, but i can say this....
the shit we had going so far isnt working, so this shit they just passed cant be any worse.

people are dying left and right with the current healthcare setup, so if people die left and right with this new one, no harm no foul

my advise, continue to just ignore this section. You obviously have nothing of substance to add.

[d00d]

One of the perks of working out of a truck all day Is being able to keep up with this whole health care debacle for the past 6 months...
I have never been scared for the future of our country before, yesterday has changed all of that. The fundamental transformation of America has begun, hold on tight :(.

[tony]

I agree to a point, however I think a better way to go about it would be something like a "civics" test that would require that people to have a basic understanding of our political system, how it works, why it's setup the way it is as well as a basic understanding of simple economics and our economy. There is a great deal of people out there who truly think that the govt can provide "free" healthcare, and sustain entitlement programs indefintely with no real way to pay for them. Nothing is free, and there are some people who absolutely cannot grasp that concept.

I've pondered this idea many times and I would have to research it much much further than my basic understanding. It's one of those things that makes sense on the surface but when you actually implement it you find the idea is total crap. Kind of similar to what Republicans (not picking on them in mentioning this) put forth in the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings act, which meant to eliminate the federal deficit in 5 years. Yeah, it sounded good but the logistics of it was the downfall.

[91LudeSiT]

I am a bleeding heart, and I feel this is a huge step backwards for this county. I feel like not being lumped in with the morons that supported this movement. Oh and how about the fines for individuals that don't choose to carry coverage, IE out of work people like my girlfriend.

[StreetHazard]

The gripes I have...is the tax increase to help pay for it, and the most likely rate increase in health insurance premiums. So it almost feels like I need to be really poor and get my government subsidies, or really fucking sick to get my moneys worth out of it. Which I am sure if I keep up my drinking and smoking that will happen sooner than later. I'm excited about it, but I also become excited when I see very angry, white, rich men. Not in the "I want him to coat my chin in man batter inside his Porsche" kind of way, but in the "I am really glad that ritz cracker is fucking miserable" kind of way. For some reason seeing a bunch of grey haired douchbags pontificating about how much money they will lose if certain "events" happen in the political spectrum fills me with glee and joy, it really makes me want to support what is going to piss them off the most. I also really enjoy witnessing the seething hatred many southerns have for the man himself laughably and sadly within this huge swath of the bible belt, almost screaming it out of their 4X4 trucks with lift kits and 26" swampers with a rebel yell. Much less giving ANY of his ideas a chance in hell.

But mostly what I am excited about is this...

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201003220001

Is it just me or does Rush Limbaugh remind you of a man that likes to sit naked in a bathtub, while other men and woman just stand over him and shit and piss all over his face? He just looks like that kind of guy to me, if I would be so presumptuous to judge. It could almost be a damn good reason in itself to support the Bill.

I know none of this is any "real" reason to throw my hat into the political ring. But it's reason enough for me to do things like support abortion, gay rights, universal health care and a separation between church and state, a separation so deep it's like the border of North and South Korea. The "tea-baggers" motivate me as well, probably not in the way they would like but it's good they keep showing their bigoted hateful faces just to remind me that my heart is in a good place.

[BanginJimmy]

All I got from your post is that you hate white people, hate people with more money than you, and hate people that don't tow the Obama line. Ever think that maybe its not all those others that have the problems and the problem is you? Maybe if you attempt to better yourself instead of sitting around drinking and smoking all day you can get over your envy.

[StreetHazard]

All I got from your post is that you hate white people, hate people with more money than you, and hate people that don't tow the Obama line. Ever think that maybe its not all those others that have the problems and the problem is you? Maybe if you attempt to better yourself instead of sitting around drinking and smoking all day you can get over your envy.

It isn't really "envy" in any real sense of the word, that would be like saying I am envious of someone that can masturbate openly in front of their loved ones and coworkers and not get a stern talking too. it's more of a constant state of "are you fucking serious....."?

Hate is a strong word. I just dislike the establishment, but to say it's not a requirement for a orderly and peaceful society would make me an Anarchist, or a Nihilist and I probably have a little of both those political leanings if they can be described as one.

But mostly I don't put any stock at all in my governments ability to take care of me or my family in accordance with what I feel is "right" or "just". And it really is that simple, it's to a point where maybe people need to start asking "why exactly would the government NOT screw me directly in the ass"? instead of trying to identify the rationalizations of why they would choose to rape you, completely against your will.

I am doing quite well in my life right now, but thank you very much for attempting to feebly psycho analyze my internet postings, I enjoy myself in every way I see fit and as often as I can. If those simple pleasures involve to much drink, a carton of smokes and a 3-way with some strippers from Yugoslavia, comfortably in my own home I would consider myself a lucky and a very successful man. Although my definition of success may be a little different than most of "mainstream america" or maybe even your own.

Vote Obama out if you think that will help, I don't think it will as long as america still continues to have any sort of "career politicians" forming our laws and structuring our regulations. Our lawmakers should have to feel the result of their decisions when they leave the government sector just like the rest of us do and I have never gotten the impression that that ever happens. Like Ron Paul said our current situation is just a transfer of wealth, all of the bad debt from the financial sector has been dumped upon the backs of us so the corporations can become solvent again. Does it suck?...absolutely, does it surprise me?...Hell no. And when you start talking about reform that is costing "trillions" of dollars....I mean damn, fuck it at that point. We then start delving into the blessings of this phony Capitalist concept of "credit" but more of what I like to think of it as modern day "sharecropping" or "paid-slavery". All I see is another way to chip away at the middle-class to expand the lower class so we can all just pick the cotton practically at gun-point if you attempt to escape, or violate "the law" and not even own the land beneath your feet, and having the audacity of actually charging us for the privilege on top of an outlandish interest rate and taxes.

Paid slavery is what it is, socialism is not here....it's capitalism in all of its glory, so relish in it conservatives. It is the societal and economic engine you have been so passionate about defending, it's what you wanted all along.

I will always survive, just like most of you will too. Chances are if you have some marketable skills, you will will not go hungry, and will not end up under a bridge. Maybe you had to forgo that car payment on the brand new M3 you always wanted but what a small price to pay for this newest addition contributing to universal health-care for our communities and our country, right patriots?

You must be anti-american if not.


.

[nreggie454]

Anarchists are idiots that don't think things through. If you want anarchy, then I will kill you, take all of your shit, and use your wife/girlfriend as my sex slave. Since there is no evil establishment, I will not be punished.

[David88vert]

I also really enjoy witnessing the seething hatred many southerns have for the man himself laughably and sadly within this huge swath of the bible belt, almost screaming it out of their 4X4 trucks with lift kits and 26" swampers with a rebel yell.


So, please explain exactly how are you not being a bigot using stereotypes with this statement?

[StreetHazard]

Anarchists are idiots that don't think things through. If you want anarchy, then I will kill you, take all of your shit, and use your wife/girlfriend as my sex slave. Since there is no evil establishment, I will not be punished.


Heh! For some reason this reminds of the time I was walking down Euclid and there were a couple of homeless young men leaning against a brink wall. Then the inevitable

"hey man, you got a cigarette? Or how about some change"?

I stopped, and turned around

"you look like your in good health, and you have all of your teeth. What the fuck are you doing here begging for money"?

He rambled off something like he from another state trying to get someplace else for whatever reason then proceeded to ask me for more money. I started to get irritated but I was not about to just give it up.

"Ill tell you what, I have got $300 in my wallet RIGHT NOW and you can have it, but your going to have to earn it.

the bum enthusiastically asked me what he has to do to get it. And I answered him.

"take it from me, your sitting here on the fucking street looking like you have absolutely nothing to lose, you look healthy, you look strong and you obviously have no moral qualms about begging for it, so I really cannot think of reason why you wouldnt if you need it so fucking bad you want to beg for it. So im telling you all you have to do is get to my back pocket.......and take it from me"

"naaaa mister, that's alright, im good...you just have a nice day".

"you too"


People should hope the day never comes where they might be desperate enough to take me up on my offer :D

[StreetHazard]

So, please explain exactly how are you not being a bigot using stereotypes with this statement?


I do like your mustang :D

[David88vert]

Heh! For some reason this reminds of the time I was walking down Euclid and there were a couple of homeless young men leaning against a brink wall. Then the inevitable

"hey man, you got a cigarette? Or how about some change"?

I stopped, and turned around

"you look like your in good health, and you have all of your teeth. What the fuck are you doing here begging for money"?

He rambled off something like he from another state trying to get someplace else for whatever reason then proceeded to ask me for more money. I started to get irritated but I was not about to just give it up.

"Ill tell you what, I have got $300 in my wallet RIGHT NOW and you can have it, but your going to have to earn it.

the bum enthusiastically asked me what he has to do to get it. And I answered him.

"take it from me, your sitting here on the fucking street looking like you have absolutely nothing to lose, you look healthy, you look strong and you obviously have no moral qualms about begging for it, so I really cannot think of reason why you wouldnt if you need it so fucking bad you want to beg for it. So im telling you all you have to do is get to my back pocket.......and take it from me"

"naaaa mister, that's alright, im good...you just have a nice day".

"you too"


People should hope the day never comes where they might be desperate enough to take me up on my offer :D

I see this everyday. There are a lot of people who do not want to work, they just want handouts.
I don't mind helping those in need, but they have to at least have the deisre to attempt to try to help themselves. Not all do.

[StreetHazard]

damn I just re read that and my stuff is littered with misspellings.....no more redbull for me

[eraser4g63]

Anybody watching them gloat on TV?

[StreetHazard]

Yeah yeah yeah. Eeeeevveryone is an expert these days, from the comfort of their living room sofas. I have an opinion, but I'm so sick of opinions recently that I'm currently curtailing it. I prefer peaceful silence to the cacophony of chattering white noise I've been hearing lately.

[FreeMyndz]

Is it gh3y to call streethazard my hero? lol...he's like the John Galt of this thread...with a little Patrick Bateman to boot...

don't know who they are? Go read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and watch American Psycho with Christian Bale

[Browning151]

...he's like the John Galt of this thread...

I wonder how many people will know who that is without googling....

[Total_Blender]

Who is John Galt? I heard he was some guy who led a bunch of conservatives out into the desert where they could be free from Government interference. You know... this guy. I heard that worked out real well. :taun:

222437

[StreetHazard]

Is it gh3y to call streethazard my hero? lol...he's like the John Galt of this thread...with a little Patrick Bateman to boot...

don't know who they are? Go read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and watch American Psycho with Christian Bale

No it's not because I support gay-rights too, you are free to express yourself however you see fit.

[Total_Blender]

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/aynrand/arflowchart2copy.png

[BanginJimmy]

Since I was on my BB earlier I will come back to this.



The gripes I have...is the tax increase to help pay for it, and the most likely rate increase in health insurance premiums. So it almost feels like I need to be really poor and get my government subsidies, or really fucking sick to get my moneys worth out of it.

Thats the problem a lot of people have with it. The only people that are not hurt by this will be those that are given an additional govt handout.



I'm excited about it, but I also become excited when I see very angry, white, rich men. Not in the "I want him to coat my chin in man batter inside his Porsche" kind of way, but in the "I am really glad that ritz cracker is fucking miserable" kind of way.

I get the same way every time I see a porch monkey hauled off to jail.




For some reason seeing a bunch of grey haired douchbags pontificating about how much money they will lose if certain "events" happen in the political spectrum fills me with glee and joy, it really makes me want to support what is going to piss them off the most.

Envy is such a horrible thing.




I also really enjoy witnessing the seething hatred many southerns have for the man himself laughably and sadly within this huge swath of the bible belt, almost screaming it out of their 4X4 trucks with lift kits and 26" swampers with a rebel yell.

Kind of sounds like the welfare kings and queens in the projects talking about Bush.




Much less giving ANY of his ideas a chance in hell.

What idea would you like to give a chance? Raise energy costs by passing cap and trade? Raise health care costs with the health care bill? Increase the lines of unemployment and welfare by offering amnesty for all of the criminals illegally in the country? What other idea has be had since he got into office?




I know none of this is any "real" reason to throw my hat into the political ring. But it's reason enough for me to do things like support abortion, gay rights, universal health care and a separation between church and state, a separation so deep it's like the border of North and South Korea.

So you are simply a typical liberal? I have to say it was pretty obvious though because you did absolutely nothing but attack people for having a more sensible ideology than you.

The crazy part is that I have no problems with most of those things, but I want some changes to them.

Abortion as birth control, fuck you, want an abortion, I'll kick you in the gut til you shit it out. Its cheaper than way.
Separation of church and state, we agree 100%. This is one of the issues that will prevent me from ever being a republican.
Gay rights, fine with me. It doesnt affect me in the least. Just make sure its gay rights, not pushing the gay lifestyle down my throat with demonstrations such as the parade. Want to be treated as a normal person, act like one and dont push your lifestyle on anyone. No one really cares if you're a fudge packer or a carpet muncher unless they have something to gain from it.



The "tea-baggers" motivate me as well, probably not in the way they would like but it's good they keep showing their bigoted hateful faces just to remind me that my heart is in a good place.

Funny how you should be talking about "bigoted, hateful faces". Have you actually read anything you typed?

[BanginJimmy]

It isn't really "envy" in any real sense of the word, that would be like saying I am envious of someone that can masturbate openly in front of their loved ones and coworkers and not get a stern talking too. it's more of a constant state of "are you fucking serious....."?

No, its actually real dictionary quality envy.


Hate is a strong word. I just dislike the establishment, but to say it's not a requirement for a orderly and peaceful society would make me an Anarchist, or a Nihilist and I probably have a little of both those political leanings if they can be described as one.

I believe hate is the correct word and bigot would be more descriptive.


But mostly I don't put any stock at all in my governments ability to take care of me or my family in accordance with what I feel is "right" or "just". And it really is that simple, it's to a point where maybe people need to start asking "why exactly would the government NOT screw me directly in the ass"? instead of trying to identify the rationalizations of why they would choose to rape you, completely against your will.

Yet you already stated you wanted the govt to take over the health care system. Why dont you explain to me why you would want a govt that would screw you "directly in the ass" to decide what level of health care you should get?


Vote Obama out if you think that will help, I don't think it will as long as america still continues to have any sort of "career politicians" forming our laws and structuring our regulations. Our lawmakers should have to feel the result of their decisions when they leave the government sector just like the rest of us do and I have never gotten the impression that that ever happens. Like Ron Paul said our current situation is just a transfer of wealth, all of the bad debt from the financial sector has been dumped upon the backs of us so the corporations can become solvent again. Does it suck?...absolutely, does it surprise me?...Hell no. And when you start talking about reform that is costing "trillions" of dollars....I mean damn, fuck it at that point. We then start delving into the blessings of this phony Capitalist concept of "credit" but more of what I like to think of it as modern day "sharecropping" or "paid-slavery". All I see is another way to chip away at the middle-class to expand the lower class so we can all just pick the cotton practically at gun-point if you attempt to escape, or violate "the law" and not even own the land beneath your feet, and having the audacity of actually charging us for the privilege on top of an outlandish interest rate and taxes.

I'm not going to both trying to translate the rhetoric, but we agree for the most part. One of the major problems with this country are the career politicians and their quest for more and more personal power.


Maybe you had to forgo that car payment on the brand new M3 you always wanted but what a small price to pay for this newest addition contributing to universal health-care for our communities and our country, right patriots?

Its not my job to pay for anyone's health care but my wife's and mine. Show me someone that has a reason for being unable to provide for themselves and I will be more than happy to help out in some way. Show me someone that was too busy having kids, or too cool to go to school, get an education, and therefore, learn those marketable skills you spoke about and I say let them enjoy the fruits of their labors, or lack there of.


As far your cute little picture goes, for some reason it doesnt tell you that with enough work, intelligence, and a little bit of luck, those people on the bottom can move up that ladder. Just ask Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and all of the new millionaires in this country every year.

[Vteckidd]

I get the same way every time I see a porch monkey hauled off to jail.

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk328/Gabis_Power_Pirate/To%20MySpace/Power%20Mix/Clerks%20and%20Earl/Randal-1.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6OselVRTsM

Sorry i had to

[StreetHazard]

opinions, you both have yours, congratulations.

Excuse me if you feel somehow I have invaded your political internet pissing hole. carry on

[BanginJimmy]

Never actually saw Clerks II. If the rest of the movie is that funny I am definitely going to watch it.

[tony]

opinions, you both have yours, congratulations.

Excuse me if you feel somehow I have invaded your political internet pissing hole. carry on

Your opinions are always welcome regardless of what they are

[RedEj8]

The problem is the American voter.. Stop voting Democrat or Republican so we can bring in some people that really care.

[Total_Blender]

It hilarious seeing all the Wingnuts get so stirred up lately. Lately you guys are getting to the point to where you can't keep your bigotry and prejudices in the closet.

If theres hate in your heart, let it out :lmfao::goodjob:


:lmfao:

[Total_Blender]

Also, I'll just add that Joe Biden is FUCKING AWESOME!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR6BR464U3M

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/05/Shirtless-Biden-R.jpg

[StreetHazard]

It would be interesting if I was a bigot and a racist against white people. That would almost make me "self-loathing", or maybe even more interesting if I started some kind of white movement to suppress the rights and nullify the economic viability of other white people. Like a "WPAOWP"

White People Against Other White People™ organization

I am interested, you might be on to something. But since I hate white people I might have a hard time getting a meeting together.

[Vteckidd]

I am not a racist or a bigot sorry to dissapoint

[StreetHazard]

I am not a racist or a bigot sorry to dissapoint

I kind of am actually, if you were it would probably help break the nauseating monotony of conservative whines and cries in this forum. We could then atleast get some giggles and entertainment at your expense.

[Bajjani]

I kind of am actually, if you were it would probably help break the nauseating monotony of conservative whines and cries in this forum. We could then atleast get some giggles and entertainment at your expense.

I read the last page, all your arguments have to do with hatred yet you have hatred towards the people who have legitimate concerns about what this will do to the country because you describe them as "rich white folk"

What about the people that will lose their jobs because companies make cuts to stay afloat? What about the people who lose their jobs because companies CAN'T stay afloat? These are blue collar workers who bust their ass day in day out. I have no respect for a man who is selfish and greedy but I also have no respect for the man who is lazy and wants handouts, I don't care what color or religion you are. I have a feeling you fall into one of those categories, and it isn't the first one. I respect Obama because I respect success, I despise Obama because of what he is going to do to this country.

[StreetHazard]

I read the last page, all your arguments have to do with hatred yet you have hatred towards the people who have legitimate concerns about what this will do to the country because you describe them as "rich white folk"

What about the people that will lose their jobs because companies make cuts to stay afloat? What about the people who lose their jobs because companies CAN'T stay afloat? These are blue collar workers who bust their ass day in day out. I have no respect for a man who is selfish and greedy but I also have no respect for the man who is lazy and wants handouts, I don't care what color or religion you are. I have a feeling you fall into one of those categories, and it isn't the first one. I respect Obama because I respect success, I despise Obama because of what he is going to do to this country.

I think you are taking my words far too serious. I also really do not care what Obama does or does not do, because I full confidence in my ability to survive, not only survive but to succeed in whatever path I choose for myself...Those are not the words of a man asking for handouts, but the words of someone that has already proved himself so thoroughly TO himself in this life he feels no need to prove it to others. So please save your witty judgements for someone that actually cares what you think.

You people really are on edge if my simple words ignited such a itch inside you, that you feel the desire to go through my posts line by line and attempt to dissect and intellectualize essentially the opinions and ramblings of a Nihilist. So where the fuck is my political party? Where is my party logo I can hide behind? Is it blue? Is it red? Or does it even exist at all? I have no cause, I have no agenda, but I certainly have opinions and I certainly refuse to live in fear. Fear of my government, fear of my job, fear of my community, fear of war, famine and terrorism. If all of those things happened at once I would do everything in my capabilities to be the last man standing, if I wasn't I certainly would not go down without a very bloody fight.

I don't care at all about Obama, I could really give a fuck less about McCain. Sarah Palin, I would like to talk into doing an ass to mouth with my big toe. The entire financial sector could collapse today and I could find a hustle to survive in the new circumstances because I am willing to adapt and change depending upon my surroundings. And none of your opinions or your supposed "facts" or your witty condescending comments will crack a dent into what I think, and that is the final point.

It is only what I think...it is a viewpoint just like your own, which I could just as easily disagree with but any of my words will still have no bearing on how you have chosen to view this world.

[Bajjani]

I think you are taking my words far too serious. I also really do not care what Obama does or does not do, because I full confidence in my ability to survive, not only survive but to succeed in whatever path I choose for myself...Those are not the words of a man asking for handouts, but the words of someone that has already proved himself so thoroughly TO himself in this life he feels no need to prove it to others. So please save your witty judgements for someone that actually cares what you think.

You people really are on edge if my simple words ignited such a itch inside you, that you feel the desire to go through my posts line by line and attempt to dissect and intellectualize essentially the opinions and ramblings of a Nihilist. So where the fuck is my political party? Where is my party logo I can hide behind? Is it blue? Is it red? Or does it even exist at all? I have no cause, I have no agenda, but I certainly have opinions and I certainly refuse to live in fear. Fear of my government, fear of my job, fear of my community, fear of war, famine and terrorism. If all of those things happened at once I would do everything in my capabilities to be the last man standing, if I wasn't I certainly would not go down without a very bloody fight.

I don't care at all about Obama, I could really give a fuck less about McCain. Sarah Palin, I would like to talk into doing an ass to mouth with my big toe. The entire financial sector could collapse today and I could find a hustle to survive in the new circumstances because I am willing to adapt and change depending upon my surroundings. And none of your opinions or your supposed "facts" or your witty condescending comments will crack a dent into what I think, and that is the final point.

It is only what I think...it is a viewpoint just like your own, which I could just as easily disagree with but any of my words will still have no bearing on how you have chosen to view this world.

My point was you're a hypocrite in your own arguments, whether you mean them or not. Congratulations on your self-proclaimed achievements but in no way, shape, or form did you ignite an itch in me or anger me in the least. In no way am I living in fear of not being able to succeed for myself, that I can do, but to each person success is measured differently. My fear lies in the fact that I have many people that work for my company that I would hate to lose because of a political agenda and I make it my responsibility to care. Therefore this is an important matter, not to my own survivability but to my own goals and to the lives of the people who work for my company. So, in my opinion, go try to cause chaos elsewhere, go find yourself a cave in a desert where you can be your own self-proclaimed God for all I care. People will be affected, children, elderly, middle-aged. Most of those affects, I fear, will not be positive. If you don't care, then don't post.

[StreetHazard]

My point was you're a hypocrite in your own arguments, whether you mean them or not. Congratulations on your self-proclaimed achievements but in no way, shape, or form did you ignite an itch in me or anger me in the least. In no way am I living in fear of not being able to succeed for myself, that I can do, but to each person success is measured differently. My fear lies in the fact that I have many people that work for my company that I would hate to lose because of a political agenda and I make it my responsibility to care. Therefore this is an important matter, not to my own survivability but to my own goals and to the lives of the people who work for my company. So, in my opinion, go try to cause chaos elsewhere, go find yourself a cave in a desert where you can be your own self-proclaimed God for all I care. People will be affected, children, elderly, middle-aged. Most of those affects, I fear, will not be positive. If you don't care, then don't post.


and my inablity to really not care about your plight makes my opinions any less important than yours? If your a smart guy you will find a way to make it work, if not then you will be fed to the sharks. Capitalism at it finest :D

sink or swim....welcome to america, you should have been a banker if you wanted a bailout.

But since you care so much, what do you plan on doing about it besides posting your gripes on IA? I have accepted the laws passed in this country as exactly that. And if I choose not not abide by them, there will be serious consequences for my actions. I don't have to agree with them, I do things everyday that I really don't want to do or agree with. But in this case I happen to not really be against universal health-care. Conservatives seem to want to act like the four horseman of the Apocalypse are about to march across the sky and throw fire and brim stone on all of the said "affected, children, elderly, middle-aged" which by all indications is intended to help protect and cover all of those mentioned regardless of pre-existing conditions.

Mostly what I see is the republican power base dwindling to a laughing stock of even itself. They don't even have a clear and focused agenda exept to just be against the other side of the aisle, they have no strong leaders and the only valid points issued from the GOP are immediately nullified by the callousness of their words and actions attempting to justify their ideals, and their political rallies and rabble-rousing look like they emptied every trailer park in America and inserted them into their political fan base like a large veiny cock into our collective consciousness.

That is simply what I see.

The democratic party certainly has it's issues as well which is why I do not wear their "colors" on a blue bandana like a crip vs. bloods gang fight. Which by all indications a two party governmental system appears to be. But given the choices we had in the last elections, I still feel like I made the right one. But mostly I do not pretend to have the answers to our nations problems, I have been seeing and hearing so many "arm-chair economists" lately that I could puke blood from nausea. A politician is not my lot in life and I would probably have a tough time looking at myself in the mirror if I was.

Everyone seems to have an "educated" opinion on these matters of late, mostly republicans because apparently they feel that they have the most to lose.

[Bajjani]

and my inablity to really not care about your plight makes my opinions any less important than yours? If your a smart guy you will find a way to make it work, if not then you will be fed to the sharks. Capitalism at it finest :D

sink or swim....welcome to america

You're a fucking retard aren't you? This isn't capitalism, this is Socialism in a capitalistic economy. Thats part of the issue.

[StreetHazard]

You're a fucking retard aren't you? This isn't capitalism, this is Socialism in a capitalistic economy. Thats part of the issue.



HAHA!

We agree, still capitalism as far as I can see financially. I do enjoy your resorts to name calling though, keep it up if it makes you feel better. But I also do not fear this bogeyman called "socialism" however you choose to define it.

The word "socialist" has been so thoroughly trashed by american conservatives that it has become a permanent stigma in politics to support conservative views. But it is also why the Democratic Party remains the only viable foundation for social reform, simply because it is the only party capable of gaining power right now, and the reason why conservatives are so scared. I personally think it is time for the majority of people to seriously start thinking about these social or societal alternatives with an open mind.

Another thing to note is "real" socialists who are happy that Barack Obama has been elected president need to recognize that, while yes, electing a black man to the presidency is an awesome progressive victory, they cannot expect the victory to extend an inch past that, and also to the scared shitless, fearful conservatives. Obama is fiercely committed to the capitalist system.

[JITB]

It hilarious seeing all the Wingnuts get so stirred up lately. Lately you guys are getting to the point to where you can't keep your bigotry and prejudices in the closet.

If theres hate in your heart, let it out :lmfao::goodjob:


:lmfao:


yea really true colors are coming out...lol

[tony]

I just have to say I am thoroughly enjoying this on both sides..

[StreetHazard]

It's amazing how current this still is after over 15 years after his death, the world needs Bill Hicks. Damn I wish he was still around so I could hear his commentary on these matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igvJ1Mew6Go&NR=1

[Bajjani]

HAHA!

We agree, still capitalism as far as I can see financially. I do enjoy your resorts to name calling though, keep it up if it makes you feel better. But I also do not fear this bogeyman called "socialism" however you choose to define it.

The word "socialist" has been so thoroughly trashed by american conservatives that it has become a permanent stigma in politics to support conservative views. But it is also why the Democratic Party remains the only viable foundation for social reform, simply because it is the only party capable of gaining power right now, and the reason why conservatives are so scared. I personally think it is time for the majority of people to seriously start thinking about these social or societal alternatives with an open mind.

Another thing to note is "real" socialists who are happy that Barack Obama has been elected president need to recognize that, while yes, electing a black man to the presidency is an awesome progressive victory, they cannot expect the victory to extend an inch past that, and also to the scared shitless, fearful conservatives. Obama is fiercely committed to the capitalist system.

I'm not responding to much today cause I have a ton of work and a huge headache but another thing I really have a problem with, I don't give a shit what color someone is and the fact that we consider electing someone of a different color progression is part of our problem. If we would elect people because we agree with their politics maybe that would help.

[StreetHazard]

I'm not responding to much today cause I have a ton of work and a huge headache but another thing I really have a problem with, I don't give a shit what color someone is and the fact that we consider electing someone of a different color progression is part of our problem. If we would elect people because we agree with their politics maybe that would help.

I personally cannot speak for everyone that voted for him, I can only speak for myself and those reasons are my own. But someone would have to have their head buried in the sand to say his multiculturalism did not play a large role in his electability. I just view those kinds of simple reasons in this case as a positive and not a negative.

[tony]

I'm not responding to much today cause I have a ton of work and a huge headache but another thing I really have a problem with, I don't give a shit what color someone is and the fact that we consider electing someone of a different color progression is part of our problem. If we would elect people because we agree with their politics maybe that would help.

The problem is there have been candidates that had legitimate Political qualifications that agreed with the politics of the majority but were not taken seriously due to the color of their skin, this is why it is progression.

[FreeMyndz]

I just have to say I am thoroughly enjoying this on both sides..

here here...:cheers::bump:...where's the popcorn one?

Looks like logic is winning in this thread...subscribed

But seriously, this is what I've been trying to tell my people on both sides of the coin..."if you don't take care of YOUR self and YOUR responsibilties, you're FUCKED anyway"

It won't matter who the president is and what his policies are. Chances are, YOU won't be affected if you stand the hell up and make shit happen for yourself...

:2cents:

[Bajjani]

The problem is there have been candidates that had legitimate Political qualifications that agreed with the politics of the majority but were not taken seriously due to the color of their skin, this is why it is progression.

But we went from one extreme to the other. I'm not arguing Obama would or wouldn't have won if he was white, but 99% of black voters voted for him, there were numerous reports that people would go ask Obama supporters what they thought of Obama's policy on (topic) and describe the policy, but it would really be McCains, but because they said it was Obama's they were all like, Yeah Obama knows what hes doing blah blah.

They should quiz you on what you know about each person running and their policies before they accept your vote.

Really, I don't think we've progressed at all. I think we just went from one side of the spectrum to the other.

[StreetHazard]

If you are not black then you probably will not understand the plight of american racism, I am not black so I will never pretend that I know. But I certainly sympathize deeply with their long struggle. What about all of the reasons alot of people did not vote for him?

"He is a radical muslim", "He is not even an american, since he was never born here". And all of the other ignorant misinformation that was spread about him regardless of his politics.

Maybe a black person that voted for him could answer this for you, I'm not going to touch it.

[tony]

But we went from one extreme to the other. I'm not arguing Obama would or wouldn't have won if he was white, but 99% of black voters voted for him, there were numerous reports that people would go ask Obama supporters what they thought of Obama's policy on (topic) and describe the policy, but it would really be McCains, but because they said it was Obama's they were all like, Yeah Obama knows what hes doing blah blah.

They should quiz you on what you know about each person running and their policies before they accept your vote.

Really, I don't think we've progressed at all. I think we just went from one side of the spectrum to the other.

It would be asinine to say that Obama's race didn't motivate black voters, one thing polls do not account for initially is voter turnout and while I don't know the figures offhand I'm pretty sure black voter turnout was larger than previous elections. With that said, Democrats get 91% of the black vote on average anyway which is another issue to me but to be taken up in another topic. Just as you would ask many of the supporters of Obama about his policy and them not knowing, voters in general are pretty uneducated about policy and process.

I was one of those volunteers for the Obama campaign early in the primaries and from my own personal experience I can tell you this, in the harshest of black neighborhoods in Winston-Salem (I mean I was nervous about being there and I'm black) for every black volunteer there were about 15 white ones, and they were highly motivated and highly supportive of his policies. These people paid their way from Arizona, Rhode Island, Texas, New York, to North Carolina to volunteer. So yeah, the media showed the black people but from my own experience the white vote was most significant in his being elected.

[StreetHazard]

It would be asinine to say that Obama's race didn't motivate black voters, one thing polls do not account for initially is voter turnout and while I don't know the figures offhand I'm pretty sure black voter turnout was larger than previous elections. With that said, Democrats get 91% of the black vote on average anyway which is another issue to me but to be taken up in another topic. Just as you would ask many of the supporters of Obama about his policy and them not knowing, voters in general are pretty uneducated about policy and process.

I was one of those volunteers for the Obama campaign early in the primaries and from my own personal experience I can tell you this, in the harshest of black neighborhoods in Winston-Salem (I mean I was nervous about being there and I'm black) for every black volunteer there were about 15 white ones, and they were highly motivated and highly supportive of his policies. These people paid their way from Arizona, Rhode Island, Texas, New York, to North Carolina to volunteer. So yeah, the media showed the black people but from my own experience the white vote was most significant in his being elected.

I can actually concur with this, I was one of the white supporters campaigning for him in some of the most shittiest neighborhoods this city has to offer, places where white people would usually only go for crack and weed, and probably still not make it out completely intact :D, and most of the time there was not even a single black person in our group. But I was really amazed and impressed how they let us into their homes with open arms when they found out what we were there for. It was really an awesome and important experience for me.

[Bajjani]

If you are not black then you probably will not understand the plight of american racism, I am not black so I will never pretend that I know. But I certainly sympathize deeply with their long struggle. What about all of the reasons alot of people did not vote for him?

"He is a radical muslim", "He is not even an american, since he was never born here". And all of the other ignorant misinformation that was spread about him regardless of his politics.

Maybe a black person that voted for him could answer this for you, I'm not going to touch it.

Bottom line, if they voted for him because hes black, they're no better than those who voted against him calling him a Muslim or because he was black. This may sound bad but, I don't give a shit about their struggles when it comes to a presidential election. I want everyone to vote because they believe in the policies and believe the person behind those policies will attempt to make those become reality.

If he wasn't born he here couldn't run..so I don't know why that would have been an issue.

[Bajjani]

It would be asinine to say that Obama's race didn't motivate black voters, one thing polls do not account for initially is voter turnout and while I don't know the figures offhand I'm pretty sure black voter turnout was larger than previous elections. With that said, Democrats get 91% of the black vote on average anyway which is another issue to me but to be taken up in another topic. Just as you would ask many of the supporters of Obama about his policy and them not knowing, voters in general are pretty uneducated about policy and process.

I was one of those volunteers for the Obama campaign early in the primaries and from my own personal experience I can tell you this, in the harshest of black neighborhoods in Winston-Salem (I mean I was nervous about being there and I'm black) for every black volunteer there were about 15 white ones, and they were highly motivated and highly supportive of his policies. These people paid their way from Arizona, Rhode Island, Texas, New York, to North Carolina to volunteer. So yeah, the media showed the black people but from my own experience the white vote was most significant in his being elected.


I can actually concur with this, I was one of the white supporters campaigning for him in some of the most shittiest neighborhoods this city has to offer, places where white people would usually only go for crack and weed, and probably still not make it out completely intact :D, and most of the time there was not even a single black person in our group. But I was really amazed and impressed how they let us into their homes with open arms when they found out what we were there for. It was really an awesome and important experience for me.

That isn't my point though. And perhaps 91% of blacks typically vote for Democrats, we're talking 8% of an entire ethnic group that switched. I know whites that voted because hes black. My point is race shouldn't be relevant in the least. Obama pulled a race card in his runnings talking about how he was going to "bridge the gap" and hes done nothing but widen it, in my opinion. I just honestly think he is a terrible leader and is not a good fit to lead our country. I think his ideals are honestly so contradicting to what our country was built on that its going to backfire.

I think the same at work though, I don't care if you're white black asian mexican or some race no one has ever seen before, if you do your job and do it well, I like you, if you don't and you try to bring about changes that have long term negative consequences that vastly outweigh the good ones, I'm not a fan.

[StreetHazard]

That isn't my point though. And perhaps 91% of blacks typically vote for Democrats, we're talking 8% of an entire ethnic group that switched. I know whites that voted because hes black. My point is race shouldn't be relevant in the least. Obama pulled a race card in his runnings talking about how he was going to "bridge the gap" and hes done nothing but widen it, in my opinion. I just honestly think he is a terrible leader and is not a good fit to lead our country. I think his ideals are honestly so contradicting to what our country was built on that its going to backfire.

I think the same at work though, I don't care if you're white black asian mexican or some race no one has ever seen before, if you do your job and do it well, I like you, if you don't and you try to bring about changes that have long term negative consequences that vastly outweigh the good ones, I'm not a fan.

I am not trying to convince you of anything, or sell you on my opinions. You have a right to express your own opinions and ideals as much as I do. Possibly a difference though is (tony) and I did not just bitch about it to our friends, and complain online. We went out into our communities and actually attempted to do something about it.

Maybe you should do something similar come next election.

[Bajjani]

I am not trying to convince you of anything, or sell you on my opinions. You have a right to express your own opinions and ideals as much as I do.

I don't mind you trying to persuade me, I'm not close minded, I enjoy the debate, but I'm going to defend my opinion and I would ask you try to prove me wrong with fact or theory, but have reasons for it.

[StreetHazard]

With all of the whining and complaining, I still just cannot feel the need to reconsider when all I have to do is just remember what our choices were. There is some solemn solace to be had every time I see John McCain ALIVE, and on tv! and not dead and buried how I figured he would end up just past the end of his campaign.

Remarkable! the man must use pure hate as his battery to just keep on living.

[tony]

With all of the whining and complaining, I still just cannot feel the need to reconsider when all I have to do is just remember what our choices were. There is some solemn solace to be had every time I see John McCain ALIVE, and on tv! and not dead and buried how I figured he would end up just past the end of his campaign.

Remarkable! the man must use pure hate as his battery to just keep on living.

You know.. I cannot argue with this. The Republicans had a much better candidate in Mitt Romney but the bureaucracy within the party chose McCain and all but gave the election away. I liked Romney but i guess he now figures his loss was due to him not being far right enough so he's bought into that Neo Conservative rhetoric.

[StreetHazard]

You know.. I cannot argue with this. The Republicans had a much better candidate in Mitt Romney but the bureaucracy within the party chose McCain and all but gave the election away. I liked Romney but i guess he now figures his loss was due to him not being far right enough so he's bought into that Neo Conservative rhetoric.

For me it was Sarah Palin that clinched my decision, an obvious and severe roadblock. Noway...no....fucking....way, and my fear that McCain looked as if he could clutch his chest, keel over and die at any given moment. And the heavy-handed, tactless way he whipped her out like a wild-card.

"Well you democrats have this fresh-faced inexperienced black guy as your front runner, so I raise you an inexperienced breeding christian young white woman"

Fuck you McCain

Fuck you.......

[David88vert]

For me it was Sarah Palin that clinched my decision, an obvious and severe roadblock. Noway...no....fucking....way, and my fear that McCain looked as if he could clutch his chest, keel over and die at any given moment. And the heavy-handed, tactless way he whipped her out like a wild-card.

"Well you democrats have this fresh-faced inexperienced black guy as your front runner, so I raise you an inexperienced breeding christian young white woman"

Fuck you McCain

Fuck you.......

What really was bad was that McCain campaigned saying that Obama was too inexperienced for the job. And then he brought in Palin - even less experienced. He shot himself in the foot.

[preferredduck]

God bless John boehner, I'm glad he had the balls to say what he did.

Dems are fucked, I will take any bet with any liberal that unemployment will rise as taxes and businesses run for the hills to save their business. I will bet this raises premiums, I will bet it puts private insurances out of business. This is a step toward single payer and a power grab

it will be repealed IMO by 2014 or we will be so broke and unemployed it won't matter

you are wrong about the insuance companies going under, who do you think wrote the bill the tooth fairy, lol. j/k. they see that 47 million americans times $150/month equals more profit. they want everyone to buy insurance and the stocks for the major companies that have their hands in the cookie jar with medicare and medicaid already had a nice increase on monday, probably alot of poloticians invested in it before it becomes too big.

[preferredduck]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcpb5a_ythe-big-black-liey-author-debates_news

found this video very interesting, ron paul was on fox news with judge napaletano(however it's spelled) just watched the clip and he is drafting a 1 page bill so it's clear and understandable on healthcare. i'll see if i can get a link.

another interesting video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w&feature=player_embedded

and the story

Here’s one – during an August 2009 demonstration in Mehville, Missouri, Obamacare opponents were locked out of a town hall meeting before Union thugs viciously attacked patriot and Tea Party activist Kenneth Gladney, who was handing out Gadsen flags outside the stage-managed event, while hurling racist insults.

“Kenneth was attacked on the evening of August 6, 2009 at Rep. Russ Carnahan’s town hall meeting in South St. Louis County,” wrote Gladney’s attorney, David B. Brown, in an email sent to Infowars. “Kenneth was approached by an SEIU representative as Kenneth was handing out ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ flags to other conservatives. The SEIU representative demanded to know why a black man was handing out these flags. The SEIU member used a racial slur against Kenneth, then punched him in the face. Kenneth fell to the ground. Another SEIU member yelled racial epithets at Kenneth as he kicked him in the head and back. Kenneth was also brutally attacked by one other male SEIU member and an unidentified woman. The three men were clearly SEIU members, as they were wearing T-shirts with the SEIU logo.”

Brown characterized the attack on Gladney, who was hospitalized with multiple injuries, as “a truly senseless hate crime,” but you wouldn’t have heard anything about it on MSNBC the next day, because it wasn’t carried out by Tea Party members, it was an attack by pro-Obamacare thugs furious at people for using their free speech to express opinions which differed to their own.

WHO is the SEIU you ask, well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Employees_International_Union seems there are many twists and turns in our country now.

[StreetHazard]

Is that story all you have to justify the hate-mongering notoriously perpetrated by these "tea-baggers"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w&feature=player_embedded

Obviously there are men above him with union shirts pushing him around and yelling at him but I don't see the "savage beating" as portrayed by many articles in the conservative press and blogosphere. The Hill erroneously reported that Gladney had been "hospitalized" after being "attacked." As you can see from the video, Gladney was not "hospitalized." but rushed away by ambulance instead, as the Post-Dispatch correctly reported, Gladney "said he sought hospital treatment." but he obviously did not need it.

It is a crime none the less but he just got scuffed up a bit, everything else is an exaggeration. The story probably was not widely picked up by other media sources exactly for that reason. Not because of any right-wing, Alex Jones, media conspiracy theory.

"in an email sent to Infowars" instantly marks it as questionable.







Is it just me or does the tea-party movement look like a civil rights protest staged by white people? Maybe I will be the only one that will laugh at the irony when they start getting sprayed with water hoses. :lmfao:

[Vteckidd]

you are wrong about the insuance companies going under, who do you think wrote the bill the tooth fairy, lol. j/k. they see that 47 million americans times $150/month equals more profit. they want everyone to buy insurance and the stocks for the major companies that have their hands in the cookie jar with medicare and medicaid already had a nice increase on monday, probably alot of poloticians invested in it before it becomes too big.

uh there isn't anyway the insurance companies survive under this bill. They will become proxies of the govt when they fail and go under.

Your example assumes that everything stays the same under the old system. There costs will vastly outnumber the additional people in the system. Also it's 30 million, 10-12 which are illegal immigrants who won't be covered initially

out of the remaining 20million some who are still so poor they can't afford it will get govt subsidies, the remaining may still decline insurance and pay the 2.5% fine per year.

So it's not as you think

[tony]

uh there isn't anyway the insurance companies survive under this bill. They will become proxies of the govt when they fail and go under.

Your example assumes that everything stays the same under the old system. There costs will vastly outnumber the additional people in the system. Also it's 30 million, 10-12 which are illegal immigrants who won't be covered initially

out of the remaining 20million some who are still so poor they can't afford it will get govt subsidies, the remaining may still decline insurance and pay the 2.5% fine per year.

So it's not as you think

Proxies that work for profit though, call them the blackwater of healthcare. The democrats present this bill as taking the power away from the health insurance industry, in my eyes they would be better off if they said absolutely nothing because its a blatant lie. I think preferredduck is right here, watch what healthcare industry stocks do between now and 2014.

[preferredduck]

Proxies that work for profit though, call them the blackwater of healthcare. The democrats present this bill as taking the power away from the health insurance industry, in my eyes they would be better off if they said absolutely nothing because its a blatant lie. I think preferredduck is right here, watch what healthcare industry stocks do between now and 2014.

i did healthcare billing and collections a couple of years ago and UHC, Humana, and BCBS have been doing underwritting and services for medicare and medicaid for a long time now and that will not stop. these companies have been there from the begining lobbying etc, paying out possibly millions to have the bill written in their favor. i'm sorry but when the president now says "everyone can purchase health insurance" i see something wrong here. the gov't made an HMO into what it is today, thank nixon and kaiser for that and i don't see such a big industry going away and being gov't run. it may appear that way but look behind the curtain.

all 3 of the mentioned companies had a nice stock increase monday, if they were going anywhere they would have tanked.

[Bajjani]

Anyone notice how after the public option was removed, the health insurance company commercials stopped?

Coincidence?

Also, Street maybe its because I don't know you or because there is no tone in typed words but you, to me, sound prejudice or just so set on your ways that its an attack nonstop. Look, if you can't handle a debate, don't partake in one. "Is that the best story you have to justify..blah blah"

Go join the people doing the beating then man, the point is that it happened any no one made a big deal about it. If it was someone bashing a Pro-Obama supporter like that you would have, and you know it. This shit should have never reached the point of violence but thats what happens when you take shit from people and give it to someone who doesn't have to work. They live off welfare, they live off foodstamps, and now they get free healthcare. I don't see how in any way thats fair for anyone.

How about in school. When you had to do a project with a group, did you have one kid who didn't want to do anything, didn't do his part to contribute and other people had to do his part? Did you want him to get a grade for what you earned? Fuck no, he didn't do anything he didn't EARN IT.

Get these lazy fucks off their ass and go EARN SOMETHING.

[StreetHazard]

I ate a bunch of indian food last night and it feels like I am pissing battery acid out of mah butt, my sphincter is all swollen up like a horny baboons ass.

just thought you might want to know. But who do you think I am prejudice against?, just to satisfy my curiousity

[preferredduck]

Anyone notice how after the public option was removed, the health insurance company commercials stopped?

Coincidence?

Also, Street maybe its because I don't know you or because there is no tone in typed words but you, to me, sound prejudice or just so set on your ways that its an attack nonstop. Look, if you can't handle a debate, don't partake in one. "Is that the best story you have to justify..blah blah"

Go join the people doing the beating then man, the point is that it happened any no one made a big deal about it. If it was someone bashing a Pro-Obama supporter like that you would have, and you know it. This shit should have never reached the point of violence but thats what happens when you take shit from people and give it to someone who doesn't have to work. They live off welfare, they live off foodstamps, and now they get free healthcare. I don't see how in any way thats fair for anyone.

How about in school. When you had to do a project with a group, did you have one kid who didn't want to do anything, didn't do his part to contribute and other people had to do his part? Did you want him to get a grade for what you earned? Fuck no, he didn't do anything he didn't EARN IT.

Get these lazy fucks off their ass and go EARN SOMETHING.

a good example of no media coverage is last year after obama got in office there was a family beat up by 50 or so black people who basically were were saying we own you because of obama, this happened in ohio, never made the news, nothing, found it online so there is alot of media bias these days.

[StreetHazard]

a good example of no media coverage is last year after obama got in office there was a family beat up by 50 or so black people who basically were were saying we own you because of obama, this happened in ohio, never made the news, nothing, found it online so there is alot of media bias these days.

I got beat up by about 15 black people in 1992 after the Rodney King police acquittal was announced the night before, I was in the 7th grade and the school contacted all of the white student's parent's and told them to pick up their children because they have no chance of containing the violence. I was beaten with a gym lock curled up in a fist and used as brass knuckles. My face looked like I was run over by a car, it was the same day the riots broke out in L.A. and I was not the only one, I was just the first of about 20 throughout the day to get their asses whipped up and down those middle school hallways.

This was Miller Grove Jr. High by the way if anyone is curious

They actually sent only the white children home right here in Stone Mountain (although in my school there were only about 50 of us with a school population of about 1500) and I didn't get my news story either. I even had a private hearing at the DeKalb County School Board in an attempt for me to try to identify my attackers. I didn't recognize any of them (not because all black people look the same LOL!) but because I was knocked out and I only remembered waking up in some other room.

I barely even had any conception of "race" until after that day

[preferredduck]

I got beat up by about 15 black people in 1992 after the Rodney King police acquittal was announced the night before, I was in the 7th grade and the school contacted all of the white student's parent's and told them to pick up their children because they have no chance of containing the violence. I was beaten with a gym lock curled up in a fist and used as brass knuckles. My face looked like I was run over by a car, it was the same day the riots broke out in L.A. and I was not the only one, I was just the first of about 20 throughout the day to get their asses whipped up and down those middle school hallways.

This was Miller Grove Jr. High by the way if anyone is curious

They actually sent only the white children home right here in Stone Mountain (although in my school there were only about 50 of us with a school population of about 1500) and I didn't get my news story either. I even had a private trial at the DeKalb County School Board in an attempt for me to try to identify my attackers. I didn't recognize any of them (not because all black people look the same LOL!) but because I was knocked out and I only remembered waking up in some other room.

I barely even had any conception of "race" until after that day

it's called media bias, it happens all the time sadly. example i was in a car accident a few years ago and now have a pinched nerve in my neck and several spots in my back. i have lost all forms f insurance and even a couple of jobs from it and it one of the jobs there was a racial slur said that sped up the firing process. i cannot get help, insurance, an attorney touch the company even though it's all recorded since it's a call center and even when we were not on the phone we were recorded and the manager quit a week later. i have tried temp medicaid to be denied and the non english speaking person behind me gets every benefit at age 18 really pissed me of. so what am i going to do about the new fines now, i guess i'll go to jail when the IRS shows up. i don't complain much but i am tired of my neck/head/back hurting 24/7. hell my girls suffer the most because some days i'm pretty useless from it. this is a situation i have not seen any insight into on healthcare reform.

[StreetHazard]

it's called media bias, it happens all the time sadly. example i was in a car accident a few years ago and now have a pinched nerve in my neck and several spots in my back. i have lost all forms f insurance and even a couple of jobs from it and it one of the jobs there was a racial slur said that sped up the firing process. i cannot get help, insurance, an attorney touch the company even though it's all recorded since it's a call center and even when we were not on the phone we were recorded and the manager quit a week later. i have tried temp medicaid to be denied and the non english speaking person behind me gets every benefit at age 18 really pissed me of. so what am i going to do about the new fines now, i guess i'll go to jail when the IRS shows up. i don't complain much but i am tired of my neck/head/back hurting 24/7. hell my girls suffer the most because some days i'm pretty useless from it. this is a situation i have not seen any insight into on healthcare reform.

That really fucking sucks...and I really am not picking on you and it sounds like your having a hard time right now. But that post was kind of hard for me to read, it seems kind of fragmented and confusing.

But from the gist I got, won't you be able to get medical insurance soon since according to the new law they cannot say no "due to a pre-existing" condition? And I am not exactly sure on the details but there is noway congress will not include some kind of "stop-loss" plan for those that are unemployed to still be covered under some kind of insurance.

I am still unclear of their plans for the unemployed myself under the new law

(edit) an article from newsweek explaining it, and it seems people in your situation is what it is designed for!

http://www.newsweek.com/id/235296?tid=relatedcl

[preferredduck]

That really fucking sucks...

well won't you be able to get medical insurance soon since according to the new law they cannot say no "due to a pre-existing" condition? And I am not exactly sure on the details but there is noway congress will not include some kind of "stop-loss" plan for those that are unemployed to still be covered under some kind of insurance.

I am still unclear of their plans for the unemployed myself under the new law

me either and that worries me since my last job i was the first to go since i have neck problems so we will see there. if they fine me i guess i'll give them the finger. even when i had insurance i could not get proper treatment it was here have another pill instead of let's try to fix the problem. i was pretty close to getting trigger point injections when i lost my insurance and job yet again. i never had this problem until after being in a car accident and this happened. when in the call center i handled the VIP accounts even from other managers so i was good at what i did but with my history they said hell no. i can't even go to my favorite place anymore, sanford stadium to watch football games and that really sucks since i had season tickets for 4 years and just can't go anymore unless i can park at the stadium near my seat, if not i'm gonna have a bad time, just ask the guy i threw up on at the central michigan game back in 08. he was pissed until he realized i wasn't drunk and could barely walk from hurting so bad.

also news flash, if this health care plan is so good why are no members of the gov't included, they are all exempt and i would love to go to a meeting with obama there and ask why he and is kids won't get on his own healthcare plan, is he too good for it or what. i think when most people learn of this they will be really pissed off and felt pissed on.

[StreetHazard]

I edited my previous post, it seems that article addresses some of your issues. I really have no idea what Obama's health insurance is. But it would not shock me if presidents have their own private hospital under the white house.

Could you show me the information where it says the government is not going to use it? I would just like to read it for myself.

[preferredduck]

I edited my previous post, it seems that article addresses some of your issues. I really have no idea what Obama's health insurance is. But it would not shock me if presidents have their own private hospital under the white house.

Could you show me the information where it says the government is not going to use it? I would just like to read it for myself.

…page 158 of the bill defines “congressional staff” narrowly, as “employees employed by the official office of a member of congress, whether in the district office or in Washington.”

it's gonna be somewhere there. only the high members of congress, the people that help them write the bills, etc are excluded, all other federal workers will be like us though. i found it on one of alex jones sites which have some interesting facts but you cannot follow every word he says for sure but usually all of these folks are excluded. i will also say that i cannot afford a health insurance premium at all right now, not until i see a new Dr next month to get my meds adjusted "damn abusers of the system have screwed me" watch the oxycontin express to see why i get more and more frustrated at this. then maybe someone will hire me shortly who knows but this sucks!!!

[StreetHazard]

…page 158 of the bill defines “congressional staff” narrowly, as “employees employed by the official office of a member of congress, whether in the district office or in Washington.”

it's gonna be somewhere there. only the high members of congress, the people that help them write the bills, etc are excluded, all other federal workers will be like us though. i found it on one of alex jones sites which have some interesting facts but you cannot follow every word he says for sure but usually all of these folks are excluded. i will also say that i cannot afford a health insurance premium at all right now, not until i see a new Dr next month to get my meds adjusted "damn abusers of the system have screwed me" watch the oxycontin express to see why i get more and more frustrated at this. then maybe someone will hire me shortly who knows but this sucks!!!

This bill is designed to help people just like you, and every single unemployed american that lacks health insurance. Your real name might as well be included in the language. YOU are going to benefit from this. I don't have any health problems right now and I have a good full-time job with benefits and a household income that certainly throws me into a higher tax-paying bracket so with your logic shouldn't "I" be complaining about your useless ass mooching off of the system?

NO...not at all

Instead I am excited for you, I am very pleased that people across this country in your similar situation will finally get the care they need and for their families, and all of the what...10.2% give or take a few percentage points of the unemployed.

I just really don't understand you tenacious right-wing republicans complaining and fighting something that will directly impact you and your families lives for the BETTER. And instead argue on the behalf of extremely well-funded individuals and massive corporations that really do not need your political support to begin with or give a fuck about the societal problems of the country they have chosen to do business in it's capitalist market, except on how much it may or may not affect their wallets.

I just don't get it. I really do not understand.

[BanginJimmy]

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

[StreetHazard]

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

are you unemployed without insurance? your political cohort preferredduck is and with millions of other people just like him, and with health problems to boot. Why don't you just let them continue wallowing in the financial squaller he has outlined above and not care at all about his plight. His situation could easily happen to any of us.

And some of what you described above is purely speculation, if it cannot just be better defined as just your "opinion" and you are just attempting to predict what has not happened yet.

And why are you actually arguing FOR the medical companies?

what

the

fuck?

[Vteckidd]

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

Huckabee actually had a good point about it last night. The back end of the law people dont realize is yes its great to now cover people with pre-existing conditions. The problem is those people pay higher rates are were deemed "uninsurable" for a reason.

this plan basically is like you wrecking your car, then calling insurance the next day and saying "i need insurance now i wrecked my car yesterday" , the govt will require them to give it to you and then pay for it.

Its like calling your home insurance company and saying you want to add fire protection because your house burned down last week.

Its like calling a life insurance company and taking out a policy on your spouse that died last week.

That will be what the insurance companies will be forced to have to pay for. In that context it is WRONG. We should be able to cover people with pre-existing conditions, but you have to understand that someone who smokes 10 packs a day with a history of cancer is going to pay more in insurance than someone who doesnt smoke, and has a healthy history. When did that become wrong?

[preferredduck]

This bill is designed to help people just like you, and every single unemployed american that lacks health insurance. Your real name might as well be included in the language. YOU are going to benefit from this. I don't have any health problems right now and I have a good full-time job with benefits and a household income that certainly throws me into a higher tax-paying bracket so with your logic shouldn't "I" be complaining about your useless ass mooching off of the system?

NO...not at all

Instead I am excited for you, I am very pleased that people across this country in your similar situation will finally get the care they need and for their families, and all of the what...10.2% give or take a few percentage points of the unemployed.

I just really don't understand you tenacious right-wing republicans complaining and fighting something that will directly impact you and your families lives for the BETTER. And instead argue on the behalf of extremely well-funded individuals and massive corporations that really do not need your political support to begin with or give a fuck about the societal problems of the country they have chosen to do business in it's capitalist market, except on how much it may or may not affect their wallets.

I just don't get it. I really do not understand.

first of all i am not a republican or democrat, secondly i hate my situation and want to work not sit on my ass and everyone pay for me, hell no i don't want to be like the folks i used to give loans to at world finance period. i have found nowhere in the bill that i wont have to pay for insurance if i cannot afford it and that worries me. if they fine me etc is what i'm getting at. hopefully in the next 2 weeks i will have some wrinkles worked out and when that happens i will desperately try to find employment, though i can't have a physically demanding job there are some out there i can do and do well. over the last 5 years i have figured out what helps me and hurts me which is more than i can say for the Dr's and if i can get a few things adjusted them i will be fine, sometimes uncomfortable but will be able to work. i promised myself i would never mooch the system like others i have seen and worked with but for the short term i can use a little help.

[StreetHazard]

^ good for you!

[Vteckidd]

I just really don't understand you tenacious right-wing republicans complaining and fighting something that will directly impact you and your families lives for the BETTER.

As laid out by us NON RIGHT WINGERS there is no evidence this will help ANYONE.



And instead argue on the behalf of extremely well-funded individuals and massive corporations that really do not need your political support to begin with or give a fuck about the societal problems of the country they have chosen to do business in it's capitalist market, except on how much it may or may not affect their wallets.

I just don't get it. I really do not understand.

Since when did it become a crime to be rich? I want to be rich i dont know about you. SInce when did these rich people get this stigma of not caring about the less fortunate? You know most small businesses ALREADY provided healthcare for their employees right?


According to the United States Census Bureau, approximately 85% of Americans have health insurance; nearly 60% obtain it through an employer, while about 9% purchase it directly.[2] Various government agencies provide coverage to about 28% of Americans (there is some overlap in these figures).
And


The employer typically makes a substantial contribution towards the cost of coverage.[28] Typically, employers pay about 85% of the insurance premium for their employees, and about 75% of the premium for their employees' dependents. The employee pays the remaining fraction of the premium, usually with pre-tax/tax-exempt earnings. These percentages have been stable since 1999.[29] Health benefits provided by employers are also tax-favored: Employee contributions can be made on a pre-tax basis if the employer offers the benefits through a section 125 cafeteria plan.

And


In 2008, over 95% of employers with at least 50 employees offered health insurance.

So the other 5% that didnt offer health insurance is going to have to pay $2000 per employee under this bill. Under this bill, excuse me, law, they will lose all the subsidies and tax credits that Bush offered to them for keeping their insurance or benefits for their retirees under their union plans.

So i dont buy this "evil rich mean white men dont care about the poor" bullshit. Its LEFT wing propaghanda, and whats funny is the people criticizing are usually MILLIONAIRES themselves in the Dem party.

Lets look at just what these evil insurance companies make shall we:


Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent. By this measure, the most profitable industry over the past year has been beverages, with a 25.9 percent profit margin. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows). The worst performer was copper, with a profit margin of minus 56.6 percent.

If you're wondering about Exxon, with its history of gargantuan profits, its profit margin was 9 percent over the past 12 months, according to the research firm Capital IQ. The average for the oil and gas industry overall was 10.2 percent, three times the margin in the health insurance industry. And that's nothing compared with high-fliers like Google—which had a 20.6 percent margin—and Microsoft, at 24.9 percent.

Profit margins basically reflect the percentage of revenue left over after paying salaries, expenses, taxes and lots of other things. So it's possible for firms to pay their executives a lot and still have a low profit margin. That's why Merrill Lynch, as an example, was able to pay huge bonuses to some employees while the company itself lost epic amounts of money.


Among the large, for-profit health insurers, profit margins line up with the industry as a whole. UnitedHealthGroup, the biggest health insurer, had a 4.1 percent profit margin over the past 12 months. WellPoint, the next biggest, had a 4 percent profit margin. Aetna, Cigna, and Humana came in below that.

Health insurers turn out to be underperformers compared with the other parts of the healthcare sector. Pharmaceutical companies have a profit margin of 16.4 percent—seventh highest of the 215 industries that Morningstar tracks. Others segments of healthcare with margins well above the median include healthcare information (9.4 percent), home healthcare firms (8.5 percent), medical labs (8.2 percent), and generic drugmakers (6.5 percent).

So this claim that the insurance companies are out to gobble everyone up and are making tons of money is absolute HORSESHIT propagated by the left to do what they do best................victimize the people with more money than you.

Anyone that has run a business and i mean REALLY run a business, knows that this means. Unfortunately not everyone has that luxury. Just remember that these rich people are the ones that are employing you.

[Vteckidd]

What happened to people taking initiative ? Personal Responsibility? There are truly people that do need help i agree. But you cant FORCE people to help the less fortunate who are unwilling to help themselves.

the safety net eventually becomes a Hammock.

[JITB]

i like reading this forums nothing ever works!

[StreetHazard]

I am not against your reasoning Vteckidd, actually it sounds pretty solid to me, but then again my perspective on "health insurance" is limited at best, and I don't seem to have any means to get a formal education on the matter, and I am not exactly sure if "the internet" counts. But please excuse my lack of data on the posts I make because "politics" is not really a hobby of mine, and I seem to be more comfortable basing my "opinions" off my own experiences. I almost feel like we could begin copying and pasting numbers that back up our opinions all day...but how fucking boring would that would be. I sure as hell am not going to read it much less have a conversation about it unless there are some pussies and titties involved and the potential of my penis going in and out of them.

And maybe I have not read through this forum enough, but I do not see hardly ANY posts actually hailing this as a democratic victory (which by any definition of the word it is) instead of a liberal onslaught heralding the beginning of the apocalypse.

This non-fox news or msnbc video I understand seems to be nailing your gripes. but the polls seem to say 63% of americans (not VtecKidds or Streethazards or IA's polls) want universal heathcare. but vary up and down depending upon political affiliations and cost. That means almost 2/3 of the population does not think the current healthcare system works for them, and I just so happen to agree with them. I am happy that all of the unemployed people and their families can finally get the care they need, and I am also open-minded to the possibility of social and societal reform.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5099783n&tag=mncol;lst;1

Forced or not, it is certainly an improvement for many millions of people that simply had no option before.

Ill readily admit my knowledge on these matters is limited, but I cannot help but feel that any opinion I put forth here will immediately be nullified by a cacophony of strictly GOP sponsored rebuttals. I am not sure how much of a "debate" this forum really is, then just a circle jerk of like-minded individuals.

























By the way VtecKidd.............I already dented the downpipe on your header, I need a new one :( at this rate ill be your valued customer!

[Vteckidd]

We have our opinions, I won't hold it against you (seriously) just like I expect you wouldn't hold my philosophies against me. It gets heated in here and we all want the same thing, the best for our fellow citizens and ourselves.

If you don't know as much as you think you should that's fine Tony knows a lot more about wallstreet and David88vert knows way more specifics than I do.

tHis is why I like this forum it's something I think congress lacks right now..........exchanging of ideas. Even though we don't agree we can still debate a topic.

For me, only this view I have works mathmatically in my mind. I get the "providing for your fellow citizen" argument. But I think it is at the expense of of our fellow citizens when it will most likely cost them their job, pay raise, etc. I also understand that to have a truly thriving society you have to have entrepeneurs and people that risk it all and fail , pick themselves back up and try again. You have to have rich and poor, because any other type of society has failed.

It's tough to balance it all but I think we can do better

that's just me

[preferredduck]

What happened to people taking initiative ? Personal Responsibility? There are truly people that do need help i agree. But you cant FORCE people to help the less fortunate who are unwilling to help themselves.

the safety net eventually becomes a Hammock.

amen on that respose. the first time in my life i have asked anyone for a little help and i was thrown out while "professional moocher" were rushed through, all at the taxpayers dime too. i recently found out that in my county they did a sweep and cleaned up a bunch of people abusing the system. example a month ago i saw a lady driving a brand new lexus, hair done etc that gets $800/mo on food stamps. i was like WTF.

[Terror]

Wow, well... thank you Vteckidd and Banginjimmy... thats a lot of good information.

From what Ive gathered I think its a good idea to a degree but maybe executed the wrong way... But I may have a personal bias I have a sister with a very serious illness and without her insurance being legally required to cover it (they searched to find a way out of it) my family would have went bankrupt attempting to foot the bill.

What would have probably happened is we wouldnt have been able to cover her almost 1 mil. dollar surgery and she wouldnt have been able to make her full recovery to live her life. I think this is one of the "executive" decisions that some people of power have to make sometimes that we may not like but may see good in after some time.

[BanginJimmy]

As I have said before, there are several parts of the bill I do like, but as you said, it was done the wrong way. I like the language that says you can stay on your parents policy until age 26, but limits it to only those that are unemployed or their employer doesnt offer medical benefits. I like the bans on yearly and lifetime caps on coverage. I like that you cannot be dropped for a pre-existing condition, but I think that that provision needs to be limited to those that disclose any conditions. If you purposely fail to disclose a condition, that counts as insurance fraud in my book.

The problem I have with the bill is that it does absolutely nothing to bend the cost curve down. If anything it will bend it up. Additional taxes on insurance companies mean a rise in rates. An additional tax on medical device companies means rates go UP. A rise in taxes on pharmaceuticals means rates go UP. Adding huge amounts of additional risk with no way to charge those with high risk means rates go UP. Reduced payments to docs from medicare and medicaid mean rates go UP. I honestly cannot think of anything in this bill that will bring rates down.

[MachNU]

Just wanted to add this...for those that said that the Healthcare bill would lower premiums for health insurance and we told you it would not. Guess what it did not. Got my bill for my health/dental/vison insurance next month and guess what it went up $13 a month. Now luckly for my business its just me, but if I had 10 employee's that would be a pretty big amount per month... $130 more a month to spend or an additional $1560 a year. Now might not be that much, but it went up rather than down.

[The Creeper]

This will get taken advantage of and raped just like welfare.

[BanginJimmy]

Bumping this to the top to see if anyone has changed their mind over the last 6 months or so.


Pretty much everything that was talked about is coming true. Coverages are being cut back as several of the largest issuers of child only medical plans have since stopped writing new policies, effective about a day before the mandate to require insurers to insure all kids at the same price kicked in. Premiums are rising faster than they were before the bill took effect. I could go on, but everyone knows all of the criticisms already.


I will add that I am still not for an all out repeal of the bill. It has some good portions of it that will really help the consumers and will not hurt the insurers all that bad. What I am all in for is a repeal contingent on passing a new bill. One that is centered on the private sector regulations, such as coverage limits, not the expansion of entitlement programs.

[Total_Blender]

When have insurance premiums ever gone down though? Seems like every year I've been working the costs have gone up and the coverage has gone down. Less people are employed meaning less people have insurance. The size of the pool, and therefore the profit margin, is shrinking.

The only real parts of the bill that have gone into effect as of right now are as follows:

Effective September 23, 2010

* Insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays in new policies issued.[41]
* Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[42] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[43][44]
* Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[45][46]
* Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[47]
* Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[48] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
* Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[31]
* Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[31]
* Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[31]
* Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[31]
* Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.[31]
* Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[31]
* Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[31]
* Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
* Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[31]
* Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[31]
* A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[31]
* A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[31]

The mandate and the exchanges won't be here until 2014. Those are the two biggest parts of the legislation.

[BanginJimmy]

When have insurance premiums ever gone down though? Seems like every year I've been working the costs have gone up and the coverage has gone down. Less people are employed meaning less people have insurance. The size of the pool, and therefore the profit margin, is shrinking.

Agreed. Premiums will never go down unless the cost curve to insurers is pushed down. Increasing taxes on insurers and providers will do the exact opposite.




The only real parts of the bill that have gone into effect as of right now are as follows:

Effective September 23, 2010

* Insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays in new policies issued.[41]
* Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[42] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[43][44]
* Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[45][46]
* Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[47]
* Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[48] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
* Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[31]
* Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[31]
* Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[31]
* Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[31]
* Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.[31]
* Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[31]
* Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[31]
* Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
* Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[31]
* Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[31]
* A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[31]
* A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[31]

I am a fan of many of these things which is why I am against an strait up repeal without something to take its place. Something FAR less expensive and FAR less intrusive. Your third point is the one I was talking about. The largest providers are no longer writing those policies.


The mandate and the exchanges won't be here until 2014. Those are the two biggest parts of the legislation.

You are correct. They are also the most expensive and will cost a couple hundred billion a year, never mind the constitutional questions of the mandate. I could even live with those things if there was any chance they would lower costs, or even level them out, without eroding the level of care. We all know that this bill will not do that though.

[blaknoize]

The problem is the American voter.. Stop voting Democrat or Republican so we can bring in some people that really care.

YES!!! Someone else that has a brain for themselves. Why DO we solely vote Demo/Repub? What makes them so amazing from the rest? Why not give an Independent or two a change to run? Or.... let one Independent have 2 terms and another one term? And... then when we elect them, stand behind them in reasonable ideas? Why do we elect if we're just going to bash everyone for every idea they've ever had, period?

That would be awesome!

[BanginJimmy]

YES!!! Someone else that has a brain for themselves. Why DO we solely vote Demo/Repub? What makes them so amazing from the rest? Why not give an Independent or two a change to run? Or.... let one Independent have 2 terms and another one term? And... then when we elect them, stand behind them in reasonable ideas? Why do we elect if we're just going to bash everyone for every idea they've ever had, period?

That would be awesome!

I agree, but I would go one step further. Dump the political party system and the career politicians completely. Get rid of the current version of primaries in which we pick a dem and gop candidate. Go to the open primary system in which the top 2 candidates run in the general election and party doesnt matter in the least.

[nelson9995]

I am not trying to sound bias in any way, nor am I saying that I completely agree with the Government providing healthcare or Welfare nor am I a Republican or Democrat, but many of the people here that disagree with all this have probably never been in a tough situation where life demands more than they can handle at the moment. There are times when you lose your job and you have kids to feed. What are you expected to do? There have been many families that have gone through this during this recession. I believe Government help should be there for those that need it while going through tough times or such; not for those that want to exploit the system and live off it.

I have noticed specially here in GA (I come from Rhode Island) that many companies do not hire Full-Time employees but have them work 40HRS+. Stop and think why they do that? TO AVOID HAVING TO GIVE THEIR EMPLOYEES BENEFITS and for some reason many people still think there is nothing wrong with that. I have noticed a huge difference between Rhode Island (and most Northeastern states) and Georgia. Georgia's laws are there mostly to help the businesses and corporations. I have seen many cases and have lived them so no one come here and tell me that it's BS where companies fire people for no reason and there is nothing that can be done about it. Try that in a Northeastern state and see what happens.

The point I'm trying to get across is that I have encountered many people like some of the ones I have seen on this thread here in GA where their mentality is set on benefiting businesses and thinking of profit rather than to try and think for what's best for all of us. I don't know about you guys but this world would be a much better place if we all thought of what's best for ALL OF US rather than a few of us that have power over the rest.

AGAIN, I am not talking about providing help for everyone, but more like let's think of all of us rather than some of us. Money and Profiting is not everything.

I'm sure alot of you will disagree with me on this but most of us go through a stage in life where we are all forced to seek for help and that's when you realize something like this. Maybe I think like this because I come from a foreign country where no help is given at all, and the rich only think of themselves and I see how things turn out to be.

[BanginJimmy]

I am not trying to sound bias in any way, nor am I saying that I completely agree with the Government providing healthcare or Welfare nor am I a Republican or Democrat, but many of the people here that disagree with all this have probably never been in a tough situation where life demands more than they can handle at the moment. There are times when you lose your job and you have kids to feed. What are you expected to do? There have been many families that have gone through this during this recession. I believe Government help should be there for those that need it while going through tough times or such; not for those that want to exploit the system and live off it.

I agree, but I also think that their should be a firm limit on the length of time ou can continue to get govt handouts, no matter what form they take.


I have noticed specially here in GA (I come from Rhode Island) that many companies do not hire Full-Time employees but have them work 40HRS+. Stop and think why they do that? TO AVOID HAVING TO GIVE THEIR EMPLOYEES BENEFITS and for some reason many people still think there is nothing wrong with that. I have noticed a huge difference between Rhode Island (and most Northeastern states) and Georgia. Georgia's laws are there mostly to help the businesses and corporations. I have seen many cases and have lived them so no one come here and tell me that it's BS where companies fire people for no reason and there is nothing that can be done about it. Try that in a Northeastern state and see what happens.

No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.


The point I'm trying to get across is that I have encountered many people like some of the ones I have seen on this thread here in GA where their mentality is set on benefiting businesses and thinking of profit rather than to try and think for what's best for all of us. I don't know about you guys but this world would be a much better place if we all thought of what's best for ALL OF US rather than a few of us that have power over the rest.

Do you agree with this quote? From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?



I'm sure alot of you will disagree with me on this but most of us go through a stage in life where we are all forced to seek for help and that's when you realize something like this. Maybe I think like this because I come from a foreign country where no help is given at all, and the rich only think of themselves and I see how things turn out to be.

People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.

[blaknoize]

No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.

The employer or businessman does not own that job. Maybe when he/she first started it and were part of every aspect of that company they are growing, but they are not the sole "owners" of whatever role you play. It may be labeled as a "benefit" but without you doing your "job" the business wouldn't function. Especially if all of US arent performing our functions for the business, then it wouldnt even exist as such a large corporation.


The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?

The same holds true from a personal perspective. Being raised in Southern Ohio I had the wonderful experience of just surviving. If you as a person and yall as a company are growing, why not treat the personnel as actual people, like Google or Apple? They are surely growing (not actually sure about Apple anymore) and many many many people wish they could work for a company that treats a person like a person and not an expendable number. "Benefits" breaks, wonderful working environment, great pay. They are a group of happy, well taken care of and amazing employees that "want" to keep their business growing. The business itself isn't growing without the help of its people, no pay cuts are needed and no outsourcing is needed because the employees generate that income for that business.




People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.

Poverty is NOT a choice. I just so happen to be raised in an impoverished area. I didnt CHOSE to make $5.15 an hr and just make it by from paycheck to paycheck. Get the fuk outta here with that. I also didnt CHOSE to be educated in the failing school system of Southern Ohio. I even moved, on a thought to Atlanta to find a better area to try and work and made it no better for myself.

Also a very good example is my friend DJ who currently resides in Southern Ohio (Portsmouth, OH) he works 3 jobs (1 day on Sunday at Church which is $100 for organ playing) part-time at Hillview Retirement Homes making 7.10 an hr and part time at Lil Caesar's making 7.45 an hour working 55hrs a week. Strapped with College debt of 34k (dropped out, or failed out due to transportation issues) and can barely make his payments after paying for fuel, partial rent/utilities, driving a 1996 Toyota Camry with 268k on it. He was born in Akron, OH, raised in Portsmouth, OH and he is still currently trying to make it better for himself. Doesnt make enough to successfully move, doesnt have the education he needs to push his career along (in whatever he desires) although he has been trying and trying for the past 3yrs to get out of Portsmouth. You tell him that he decided he wants to be in poverty and wanted to remain there!

[nelson9995]

I agree, but I also think that their should be a firm limit on the length of time ou can continue to get govt handouts, no matter what form they take.

No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.

Do you agree with this quote? From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?

People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.



This is what I meant; CONTROLLED;

I don't agree because that gives the employer room to fire for reasons that are not legitimate. I know a person who got fired because she would not have sex with her employee. I know she should have sued him but that's another story. My mother got fired over a disagreement she had with her manager even though in 3 years she was never late, never called out and performed her job well. This is why I don't agree with it. It gives a single person the ability to ruin the financial status of a person. Which can greatly influence a person's psychological status.

Of course but it's a double edged sword.

I agree that businesses sometimes cannot provide benefits when starting and it is understood, but what about companies like WalMart and Home Depot. They both don't hire full time. No chance. They do this to not give benefits and trust me they have the funds to. A study showed that Wal Mart can afford to pay each of their employees $26 an hour and still make a huge profit. I'm not saying they should but come on, starting at $7.50? and after 2 years $8. something? This is what I'm talking about. This is how companies take advantage and it is called greed and exploitation whether you want to accept it or not. We are all humans and deserve to be treated as humans not as machines. So if an employee gets hurt working and they are classified as "Part-Time" which is just a classification because most of them are working 40+ Hours, they should just be thrown out? and this is what most companies will do because the law backs them up; they can fire without having a legitimate reason.

Same with Verizon, I applied because they needed a bilingual employee for their English and Spanish speaking customers. I have interpretor experience and they still only offered to pay minimum wage. That's not the worse part. They demanded me to work 40+ hours a week but said they could not hire full time. Are you kidding me? I know they can afford to offer benefits.

I understand this. Anyone can rise here and become somebody important, quite yet become rich; what I meant was that there are times when we sometimes fall in situations where we need help and I believe that help should be there while you get yourself back on your feet.

[nelson9995]

I agree with you for the most part BlakNoize

[Verik]

A study showed that Wal Mart can afford to pay each of their employees $26 an hour and still make a huge profit.

Link the study because I guarantee you that study was the same one that meant all employees, included the ones such as regional vp's and executives who are making 6-7 figures. Of course with redistribution of wealth, the bottom end of the curve always looks so much nicer. The point is though, are people like the stockers and cashiers really doing a job thats worth 26$/hour? Yeah fucking right. Are the executives doing a job thats worth far more than 26$/hour. Yes. Welcome to pay grade. The human capital of a stocker compared to an executive is miniscule.

[BanginJimmy]

I don't agree because that gives the employer room to fire for reasons that are not legitimate. I know a person who got fired because she would not have sex with her employee. I know she should have sued him but that's another story.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Sexual harassment is against the law for a reason.




My mother got fired over a disagreement she had with her manager even though in 3 years she was never late, never called out and performed her job well. This is why I don't agree with it. It gives a single person the ability to ruin the financial status of a person. Which can greatly influence a person's psychological status.

He is the manager, as long as it is part of the job and not illegal, if the manager says to do something it is the employees job to do it, not argue with the manager. Insubordination will get you fired from pretty much every job, including union jobs.


I agree that businesses sometimes cannot provide benefits when starting and it is understood, but what about companies like WalMart and Home Depot. They both don't hire full time. No chance. They do this to not give benefits and trust me they have the funds to.

You are also talking about mostly low end jobs meant for high schoolers.


A study showed that Wal Mart can afford to pay each of their employees $26 an hour and still make a huge profit.

I would also like to see this study as I just read one that uses real numbers that tells a vastly different story.


If Walmart took its entire $22 billion of annual pre-tax income and used all of it to give each one of its 2.1 million employees a raise, this would amount to about $10,000 a year apiece.

In other words, if Walmart decided to use 100% of its operating profit to pay all of its employees more, the average store associate's salary would go from $20,000 to $30,000.

30k a year is nowhere near $26/hr and what I just posted took pre-tax profits, not post tax.
http://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-employees-pay



I'm not saying they should but come on, starting at $7.50? and after 2 years $8. something? This is what I'm talking about.

I just gotta tell you, stocking shelves is not exactly a field with a shortage of qualified applicants. Your average HS dropout can typically manage it.



This is how companies take advantage and it is called greed and exploitation whether you want to accept it or not.

No, it is called smart business and paying people what they are worth. If you are trying to raise a family on a Wal-Mart retail job, then you have already failed in life.



So if an employee gets hurt working and they are classified as "Part-Time" which is just a classification because most of them are working 40+ Hours, they should just be thrown out? and this is what most companies will do because the law backs them up; they can fire without having a legitimate reason.

If you are hurt while at work it is called workers comp. For the small price of paying out on a workers comp claim a company like walmsrt wont even question you too hard about the injury unless something is really wrong and the facts dont line up with the injury.


Same with Verizon, I applied because they needed a bilingual employee for their English and Spanish speaking customers. I have interpretor experience and they still only offered to pay minimum wage. That's not the worse part. They demanded me to work 40+ hours a week but said they could not hire full time. Are you kidding me? I know they can afford to offer benefits.

Minimum wage is not uncommon for a job that also pays commissions on sales. Its a buyers job market right now. A smart company will milk it for what its worth. I also believe that Verizon franchises their stores, they are not all owned by the parent corporation. If this is the case, then the store may not have been able to offer benefits. Remember, a benefits package and the employer portion of taxes cost a lot of money and in some low end jobs, it may cost more than the employee itself.


I understand this. Anyone can rise here and become somebody important, quite yet become rich; what I meant was that there are times when we sometimes fall in situations where we need help and I believe that help should be there while you get yourself back on your feet.

And it is there already so what are you complaining about?

[BanginJimmy]

The employer or businessman does not own that job. Maybe when he/she first started it and were part of every aspect of that company they are growing, but they are not the sole "owners" of whatever role you play. It may be labeled as a "benefit" but without you doing your "job" the business wouldn't function. Especially if all of US arent performing our functions for the business, then it wouldnt even exist as such a large corporation.

So if the employer doesnt own the job, who does? Just because he long longer performs the job doesnt mean that the job is no longer his to control. That control also extends to who currently does the job.




The same holds true from a personal perspective. Being raised in Southern Ohio I had the wonderful experience of just surviving. If you as a person and yall as a company are growing, why not treat the personnel as actual people, like Google or Apple? They are surely growing (not actually sure about Apple anymore) and many many many people wish they could work for a company that treats a person like a person and not an expendable number. "Benefits" breaks, wonderful working environment, great pay. They are a group of happy, well taken care of and amazing employees that "want" to keep their business growing. The business itself isn't growing without the help of its people, no pay cuts are needed and no outsourcing is needed because the employees generate that income for that business.

I've been in the same places growing up on the southside of chicago. Dead end job, no desire, or the grades, to go to college so I did the smart thing. I went into the military and learned a trade. That trade now has me well employed and digging myself out of my self imposed debt.

A company that treats its employees well will always prosper because those employees will do quality work. The company I work for also treats employees very well and they have prospered because of it.





Poverty is NOT a choice. I just so happen to be raised in an impoverished area. I didnt CHOSE to make $5.15 an hr and just make it by from paycheck to paycheck. Get the fuk outta here with that. I also didnt CHOSE to be educated in the failing school system of Southern Ohio. I even moved, on a thought to Atlanta to find a better area to try and work and made it no better for myself.

While you were here in Atlanta did you take advantage of HOPE and PEL and go to school? If eligible for the military out of HS, did you pursue that as a way to learn a trade and a decent living? Were you a good student and never got into trouble? There you go, I just rattled off 3 quick choices YOU made that directly affected your future earnings potential.




Also a very good example is my friend DJ who currently resides in Southern Ohio (Portsmouth, OH) he works 3 jobs (1 day on Sunday at Church which is $100 for organ playing) part-time at Hillview Retirement Homes making 7.10 an hr and part time at Lil Caesar's making 7.45 an hour working 55hrs a week. Strapped with College debt of 34k (dropped out, or failed out due to transportation issues) and can barely make his payments after paying for fuel, partial rent/utilities, driving a 1996 Toyota Camry with 268k on it. He was born in Akron, OH, raised in Portsmouth, OH and he is still currently trying to make it better for himself. Doesnt make enough to successfully move, doesnt have the education he needs to push his career along (in whatever he desires) although he has been trying and trying for the past 3yrs to get out of Portsmouth. You tell him that he decided he wants to be in poverty and wanted to remain there!

College debt can be forgiven if he can show he cannot pay even if he dropped out as long as its a legitimate reason and not just laziness (not saying your friend was lazy).


BTW, just his 1 job at lil caesars puts your friend over the poverty line for a single adult. Adding in the other 2 jobs has him making well over 30k a year before taxes and he wont pay much in taxes, I would guess about 5k at the high end.

[nelson9995]

Link the study because I guarantee you that study was the same one that meant all employees, included the ones such as regional vp's and executives who are making 6-7 figures. Of course with redistribution of wealth, the bottom end of the curve always looks so much nicer. The point is though, are people like the stockers and cashiers really doing a job thats worth 26$/hour? Yeah fucking right. Are the executives doing a job thats worth far more than 26$/hour. Yes. Welcome to pay grade. The human capital of a stocker compared to an executive is miniscule.

i did not say they should get paid $26 an hour. Of course they don't do the job to get paid that. But don't come here and tell me you can survive with $7.50 an hour even if you are a single adult.

[nelson9995]

BanginJimmy- I know what the issue with you is; you are a die hard Republican. All you think about is profit profit profit. I would hate for you to be my manager and everyone else which is not a good thing! I'm done trying to discuss this with you; you republicans will never understand.

[blaknoize]

I didn't pursue the Hope when I was in GA. I had to be a resident to qualify didn't I? (I never changed my status or tags) I also didn't want to pursue a military career (as u know I dont like this war) and I also wanted to stall as long as I could before doing something like that. I'm doing fine myself. I used my customer service skills and the little bit of computer related experience to gain employment with JP Morgan Chase, I'm fine just have no actual education. I failed out myself thanks to my old car and distance from school. UGH!! I'm in Columbus and made it out of there with Bushes stimulus check to get me my first apartment. Yes good student and so on.

I MADE myself go somewhere else because I looked and wondered and wanted things. So I just moved, lucked out a few times, ESPECIALLY with my employer in GA. TALK ABOUT LUCKED OUT. The hiring manager happen to be from Portsmouth, OH and HAPPEN to be the family friend of a classmate I graduated with and he just so happen to call him the day before my interview and my name came up for whatever reason. My interview wasnt even an interview, he hired me because he knew where I came from and how terrible it was.

I have a correction to my statement about DJ's status. He works 20hrs a week between both jobs and still does the church thing of $100 a week. I believe my argument is void.

[blaknoize]

In reference Verik:

it was a figure of speech regarding the 26 an hr. I know one employee who works for Kroger who makes 21 an hr as a cashier and a Stocker for that same Kroger who make $29.76 an hour. They of course have been with the company from the good-ol-days but they do get paid nicely and perform each other their functions to the best of their respective abilities. I make almost 20 an hr and dont do ANYTHING near as involved as either of them do.

Fit and finish and presentation of a store is just as important as a person who manages the firewall of a small business or preps PC's for deployment. Of course this is my "radical" view of things but that is what I believe we should be treated like. Obviously we don't seem to like out neighbors doing as good as us if at all possible. We don't want them to have a nicer home or prettier car or sexier wife than us. Shareholders, business owners, conglomerates and corporations alike do not want this either it seems, for its employees in one way or the other.

But again, thats my "radical" view of things because everyone is worried about themselves and not their community as a whole, like it used to be, like it still in (somewhat) in small towns of our nation, like it was where I grew up at. Most companies took great care of their employees back then, the neighborhoods were filled with that particular employers workers and the city knew what employees worked with who. My aunt just so happen to be one of those lucky employees, had a great health-care plan, and even greater... almost exorbitant pay and worked a set schedule, no OT (not required either) and made roughly 70k a year, has a pension, retired and is living well, helping her whole family out. She makes more than me as a retiree than I do working FT. This company also paid 90% of her medical bill when she fell ill, brought her back when she recovered after 5months of rehab and paid her 40% of her income while she was out. She worked for them her whole working life 29years and never wanted to leave or look outside for another place because she loved her place of work and it showed her the same respect.

[BanginJimmy]

BanginJimmy- I know what the issue with you is; you are a die hard Republican. All you think about is profit profit profit. I would hate for you to be my manager and everyone else which is not a good thing! I'm done trying to discuss this with you; you republicans will never understand.


Actually I am not a republican, but I am a fiscal conservative. I tend to lean more liberal on social issues.

Where did I ever say its only about profit? I have only said that profits drive a company to expand.

Considering you dont know me or anything about me, I dont really care that you wouldnt want to be managed by me.

[BanginJimmy]

In reference Verik:

it was a figure of speech regarding the 26 an hr. I know one employee who works for Kroger who makes 21 an hr as a cashier and a Stocker for that same Kroger who make $29.76 an hour.


I dont typically do this, but I am going to call BS on this, especially the stocker making nearly $30 an hour unless this is some type of special arrangement they have. I just cant see a stocker making $60k a year for hat is realisticly a 20k a year job. So yea, you are either giving half the story or just making this up.

[blaknoize]

I dont typically do this, but I am going to call BS on this, especially the stocker making nearly $30 an hour unless this is some type of special arrangement they have. I just cant see a stocker making $60k a year for hat is realisticly a 20k a year job. So yea, you are either giving half the story or just making this up.

I'll have to see if I can reach him. He's been working with Kroger for a little over 20yrs. Kroger store #655 in Atlanta. Unless I was lied to by him personally then I could be BS'ing but he trained me when I first started working there in 05. I mean, I made $9.10 an hr there as a Cashier and I only worked there for 3yrs with a starting salary of $6.85. It was under strong union control to. I got a raise every 6months and was brought back even after I got "fired" from a store I transferred to up north.

And not even stopping at him. I'll have to see if my old Stock Night worker "BIG Vaughn" still works there. He started at 40k, albeit he was the night lead. This store is unique because its location is in a very affluent part of Atlanta (for all I know) up the street from the CDC and Emory Healthcare and University also near lil 5points which has lots of Jews thriving in the area.

[BanginJimmy]

Being under union control means there is a prescribed pay scale. That means that anyone with equal time there will be making the same thing. Maybe as a lead or supervisor they are making that much, but outside of that Kroger simply could not be competitive with that kind of scale.

[trini_gsr]

i did not say they should get paid $26 an hour. Of course they don't do the job to get paid that. But don't come here and tell me you can survive with $7.50 an hour even if you are a single adult.

you can as a single adult because i did it - working at Target from 5am-1pm, 5 days a week, and going to school at Ga Tech (for electrical engineering) in the evenings. It was rough, i won't lie - and I had to cut back on a lot of things but I was able to stretch and make it work. I'd have liked to get paid more for the job but it was an easy job that anybody with a 9th grade education could do. And eventually I found a better paying job. But throughout that time, I knew I didn't want to live my life like that so I hustled hard and got my education so I wouldn't have to.

At the end of the day, you have to take personal responsibility for your situation. if you don't like the way things are in your life, CHANGE IT. this falls on you. It's one thing if you're sick, disabled, etc...but if you're able-bodied then there is nothing stopping you (in THIS country anyway) from going out and getting an education or making some moves to better your position. It's not your employer's responsibility to do this. The government's only job is to ensure we have a society/environment where folks have the chance to do exactly this. I believe in helping folks (with food stamps, welfare, etc) - but these programs are to get folks get back on their feet, not for them to live off of.

[nelson9995]

you can as a single adult because i did it - working at Target from 5am-1pm, 5 days a week, and going to school at Ga Tech (for electrical engineering) in the evenings. It was rough, i won't lie - and I had to cut back on a lot of things but I was able to stretch and make it work. I'd have liked to get paid more for the job but it was an easy job that anybody with a 9th grade education could do. And eventually I found a better paying job. But throughout that time, I knew I didn't want to live my life like that so I hustled hard and got my education so I wouldn't have to.

At the end of the day, you have to take personal responsibility for your situation. if you don't like the way things are in your life, CHANGE IT. this falls on you. It's one thing if you're sick, disabled, etc...but if you're able-bodied then there is nothing stopping you (in THIS country anyway) from going out and getting an education or making some moves to better your position. It's not your employer's responsibility to do this. The government's only job is to ensure we have a society/environment where folks have the chance to do exactly this. I believe in helping folks (with food stamps, welfare, etc) - but these programs are to get folks get back on their feet, not for them to live off of.


I agree with you. This is my point.

One thing, don't tell me you paid for food, car insurance, phone bill, water, gas, and all your necessities and rent making $7.50 an hour without any kind of help like student refunds. Please it's just too hard to believe.

[BanginJimmy]

I agree with you. This is my point.

One thing, don't tell me you paid for food, car insurance, phone bill, water, gas, and all your necessities and rent making $7.50 an hour without any kind of help like student refunds. Please it's just too hard to believe.

Depending on what you pay for rent, it can be done. My wife bought our house (before we were married) making about $11.00 an hour while she was going to school in the evenings.

[Browning151]

I agree with you. This is my point.

One thing, don't tell me you paid for food, car insurance, phone bill, water, gas, and all your necessities and rent making $7.50 an hour without any kind of help like student refunds. Please it's just too hard to believe.


It can be done by a single adult who lives responsibly. I'm 25 and single and I pay all my bills on my own: a mortgage, all utilities, pay my own health insurance, cell phone and car insurance on 2 cars that are both already paid for. The only debt that I have is my mortgage and 1 credit card and I don't have a college education, so it is entirely possible for someone to make it on their own, and since I'm sure it will get asked I average making (commission) only slightly more than someone working 2 jobs at that pay rate.

In reference to some of your other comments and views expressed in this thread: Living temporarily below the poverty level in this country may not be a choice, but being CHRONICALLY below the poverty level rests squarely on a persons choices and nothing more. It comes down to people in this country EXPECTING to be able to live at a certain level, not earning it. Realistically food and shelter are the basic necessities of life, if you have those you're already doing better than a large part of the worlds population. You can call me cold, cruel, heartless or whatever names you'd like to label me but if you have money to spend on other luxuries such as cable tv, cell phones, internet connections etc. etc. then you should not be eligible for gov't assistance. You don't need any of those things to live, so if you're not willing to make sacrifices of personal luxuries to get yourself out of tough times, why should I be expected to make those sacrifices for you and have your gov't handout check taken out of my paycheck in the form of higher taxes?

[nelson9995]

It can be done by a single adult who lives responsibly. I'm 25 and single and I pay all my bills on my own: a mortgage, all utilities, pay my own health insurance, cell phone and car insurance on 2 cars that are both already paid for. The only debt that I have is my mortgage and 1 credit card and I don't have a college education, so it is entirely possible for someone to make it on their own, and since I'm sure it will get asked I average making (commission) only slightly more than someone working 2 jobs at that pay rate.

In reference to some of your other comments and views expressed in this thread: Living temporarily below the poverty level in this country may not be a choice, but being CHRONICALLY below the poverty level rests squarely on a persons choices and nothing more. It comes down to people in this country EXPECTING to be able to live at a certain level, not earning it. Realistically food and shelter are the basic necessities of life, if you have those you're already doing better than a large part of the worlds population. You can call me cold, cruel, heartless or whatever names you'd like to label me but if you have money to spend on other luxuries such as cable tv, cell phones, internet connections etc. etc. then you should not be eligible for gov't assistance. You don't need any of those things to live, so if you're not willing to make sacrifices of personal luxuries to get yourself out of tough times, why should I be expected to make those sacrifices for you and have your gov't handout check taken out of my paycheck in the form of higher taxes?

First of all, you make more than twice the amount. Let's see you pay those expenses making $7.50 and be able to even eat well.

Second of all, I agree with what you say how poverty in this country can be temporary. I also agree with you on this where you state that you have to make sacrifices temporarily to get out of poverty. I also believe in people working hard for things. I never said hand things to people. All I said was there should be help for those that need it temporarily.

Also, I hate how people say "WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PAY MY TAX MONEY FOR YOU."
I can see where you get this from if the person sits on their butt and doesn't work at all. But, we all pay income taxes, we all pay sales tax so we all get some back of what we pay or paid for for a while; so please don't act like a hard working person that all of a sudden needs help is getting their money from you.

[nelson9995]

Depending on what you pay for rent, it can be done. My wife bought our house (before we were married) making about $11.00 an hour while she was going to school in the evenings.

Again, $11, not $7.50. This is a $3.50 an hour more which is 140 more a week which is $560 extra a month. This can be rent, all of your bills, and it's a huge difference.

Even at $11 I admire her. She seems like a well organized person because at $11 it can still feel short at times.

Also, most likely she was receiving school refunds which CAN be a good amount every semester. Not saying she was but I'm guessing she was and if this is true, then that's another income.

[Browning151]

First of all, you make more than twice the amount.

If I wasn't making what I do, then I would get 2 jobs and still make it happen, I also generally work more than 1 job worth of hours. Point I was getting at was a person working 2 jobs has the same ability, my mom does it and I work nearly enough to do it. If you want it you will make it happen.



Second of all, I agree with what you say how poverty in this country can be temporary. I also agree with you on this where you state that you have to make sacrifices temporarily to get out of poverty. I also believe in people working hard for things. I never said hand things to people. All I said was there should be help for those that need it temporarily.



And it is there for people who need it temporarily already.




Also, I hate how people say "WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PAY MY TAX MONEY FOR YOU."
I can see where you get this from if the person sits on their butt and doesn't work at all.

I didn't say why should I pay tax money for you, I said why should I pay tax money for you if you are spending money on more than the basic necessities of life. There's a difference. I have no problem with people needing temporary assistance. I do however have a huge problem with people who become wards of the state and still spend money on luxury items, if you can't pay for food there's no reason for you to have cell phones and cable tv etc etc. I hate moochers and people that abuse the system, it's one of my biggest pet peeves.


But, we all pay income taxes

Wrong, not everyone pays income taxes.



so please don't act like a hard working person that all of a sudden needs help is getting their money from you.

I never said that either, temporary assistance isn't a problem. People who sit on gov't assistance chronically are a problem.

[bafbrian]

I agree with you. This is my point.

One thing, don't tell me you paid for food, car insurance, phone bill, water, gas, and all your necessities and rent making $7.50 an hour without any kind of help like student refunds. Please it's just too hard to believe.

I did it on $8.00/hr when I was full time and going to school full time. If you know how to budget, it is doable.

[trini_gsr]

I agree with you. This is my point.

One thing, don't tell me you paid for food, car insurance, phone bill, water, gas, and all your necessities and rent making $7.50 an hour without any kind of help like student refunds. Please it's just too hard to believe.

lol i did. it was really hard. lots of cereal, ramen noodles, tuna fish, and hitting the dollar menus up at McD and Wendy's LOL. basically i made about $1000ish a month i think - rent was $300 (my apt wasn't the best lol), didn't have a car note, insurance was $70 bc the car was in my moms name (lol), didn't have a cell at the time, and gas was a lot cheaper than today. i got laid off from my campus job, and did that job for about 3-4 months before i found a job that paid more. i was close to graduating then, so i spent all of my free time at school anyhow working on labs or senior design projects...my schedule was super tight between work and school, that's all i really did.

during that time period i didn't spend extra $$ on ANYTHING, not even candy at the gas station...you'd be surprised how little you can get by on when you have to.

[BanginJimmy]

Again, $11, not $7.50. This is a $3.50 an hour more which is 140 more a week which is $560 extra a month. This can be rent, all of your bills, and it's a huge difference.

Thats true, but if you own your own house then you know that it is never that simple. A mortgage is also more expensive than a bottom barrel apt. When I first got to Atlanta I found a nice apt for about $600 a month and had zero maintenance costs. My wife ended up having to replace a furnace her first winter in the house.


Also, most likely she was receiving school refunds which CAN be a good amount every semester. Not saying she was but I'm guessing she was and if this is true, then that's another income.

She did not receive HOPE or PEL. She had to drop out of school her first semester to take care of her grandma. That left her unable to qualify for HOPE or PEL for the first year in school here.

[blaknoize]

Well about that income tax statement. NH residents dont pay income or sales tax. The argument I make about all this taxing yet not being able to live more than an existence shows when comparing NH to what I believe every other state we have. Its costs more, they are paid better, the actual cost of living is lesser up there. Car insurance is even cheaper for whatever reason.

A person making $7.50 should still be able to live "well" assuming they did not have any unnecessary payments. Like a car note, which seems to be hard to avoid when your in a very very tight spot and need transportation instantly and do not know the busing system, or... as in some cities, dont have busing systems or u live way out in a suburb. I lived on $7.25 but only for 4months. I had no car payment and a very economical car (when gas hit $4 a gallon the CRX was still expensive for my 20mile trip to and from work.) The problem with this whole debate about living on $7.50 is that the variables and so called "inflation" of goods can mess that up, secondly the assumption is that all things are working smoothly. Also, for whatever reason, GA state law "excludes from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act when the Federal rate is greater than the State rate." http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#Georgia
So $7.50 isnt even the actual minimum wage there.

If that car and the ONLY car u own breaks, your $7.50 is already stretched to the limit to house u, feed u, cloth u and provide fuel for your transportation. I ran into that issue but had HELP. My car broke and forced me out of school, I didnt have enough to fix it and also didnt have enough to get another car. That is the issue I see, the assumption that all things will last and be as they were forever.

[ek forever]

I make about $9/hour on my two jobs. My fiance only works 3 days a week for my uncle at $10/hour without taxes being taken out.

We have:

$65,000 mortgage on a house that was originally $140,000.
Two paid for cars. Mine a 2000 Civic with solid suspension upgrades. And she has a 2007 Honda Civic with only a few payments left.
She has health insurance, I don't, I'm considering getting a policy from blue cross that costs $90/month. Covers all emergencies and has small copays for doctors visits and prescriptions.
We eat out maybe 3-4 times a month. We eat all natural and some organic food and cook at home a lot.
My house is well furnished. IKEA bedroom and mostly nice yard sale furniture everywhere else.
We feed 3 cats, which cost us about $150 a month in all natural cat food and natural cat litter.
I also paid for my college tuition at the University of West Ga every semester so far until this semester. Just got hope back, KICKASS.
I pay for my dental cleanings every year out of pocket. Why pay $30 a month for dental insurance when I can pay $60 a year for my annual cleaning? Haven't had a cavity in 5 years. Actually, which is when I had health/dental last under my mom.
We have Television, Charters 2nd fastest internet service available, (20mbps).
We both pay out of pocket for a Chiropractic adjustment every 2 months. $50 each.
Neither of us smoke and we drink very little. We're both in good health, I would say "shape" but I haven't worked out in months. my definition of shape is unusual, I'm 165lbs. I've lost weight since I quit working out.
$10/6pack of woodchuck every few weeks for me personally. Not a beer fan.

Neither of us have any debt. We both worked in high school to buy our cars, and we've both just been smart with out money since. We buy clothes at the thrift store. (with the exception of shoes, we both wear expensive shoes.)

(She actually has student loans with 0% interest, she's saved it all as cushion money in an annuity that earns 7%/year. She'll write one check when she graduates to pay the loan off and she'll have made about a few thousand dollars over the last 4 years.


Determination and knowing how to make a budget can go a long way. When we decided to buy a house and move out from living with my mom we sat down and figured out our monthly income and what we could afford.

We both go to school full time and we're Juniors at UWG. COMBINED I think we make about $30,000/year.

And again. ZERO debt. (besides the mortgage)