Harness Installation F%$# Up

[speedminded]

Some people see it, some people won't...

http://www.jasontbarker.com/images/automotive/gresham_park_march_2010/DOA_02_800x500.jpg
|1280x800 (http://www.jasontbarker.com/images/automotive/gresham_park_march_2010/DOA_02_1280x800.jpg)|

Anything greater than 20 degrees from horizontal is doing more harm than good, it's pulling down on the back of the seat and any impact will cause it to forcibly break or bend backwards. People that mount harnesses to the floor behind them might as well have OEM 3-point seat belts: it's putting themselves, and worse yet, their passengers in critical danger. A reclining "race" seat needs a brace behind it anyways. Depending on the sanction and the seat a brace is required either way.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2vtqi6e.jpg

[Elbow]

That's more the seat than the harness. Many BTCC and FIA race cars mount their harnesses to the floor versus the cage.

I bet if it were a proper race seat it would of been different. I can't tell how sharp the angle is or where the harnesses are mounted though. All non FIA seats require a seat back brace in about every organization. I see so many uncaged cars with harnesses mounted to the floor running BMWCCA event it's not even funny. I'm not saying that in a positive way either. lol I think no cage = no harness unless it's a harness bar and even then maybe not.

[Nemesis]

holy crap Jason, did that happen on Saturdays practice? Is the person okay?

[Elbow]

Oh damn I just saw that's YOUR picture and local.

[speedminded]

That's more the seat than the harness. Many BTCC and FIA race cars mount their harnesses to the floor versus the cage.

I bet if it were a proper race seat it would of been different. I can't tell how sharp the angle is or where the harnesses are mounted though. All non FIA seats require a seat back brace in about every organization. I see so many uncaged cars with harnesses mounted to the floor running BMWCCA event it's not even funny. I'm not saying that in a positive way either. lol I think no cage = no harness unless it's a harness bar and even then maybe not.Schroth and Willans instructions are both a maximum of 20° while Sabelt recommends a maximum of 10° from horizontal...but FIA rules allow up to 45° with a proper seat setup.


holy crap Jason, did that happen on Saturdays practice? Is the person okay?

Oh damn I just saw that's YOUR picture and local.Yeah it was at Gresham Saturday. They both got out fine but one was complaining on 240atlanta how sore he was and apparently Recaro seats have "crumple zones" because it bent over/broke. Apparently it's going to take someone getting seriously hurt to require a properly installed setup, hopefully it's not an unsuspecting passenger.

But yes, in rear impacts seats can break...both OEM and race if they aren't properly supported. I've seen it first hand on multiple occasions but also seen them not break, unsupported, with OEM belts in impacts like this.

http://www.jasontbarker.com/images/automotive/gresham_park_march_2010/DOA_03_800x500.jpg

[Nemesis]

Wow...that is crazy. Its good to hear nobody got seriously injured.


On top of improper installation , Ive seen too many non SFI rated harnesses installed in cars everywhere. I understand saving money, but damn at the price of safety of yourself and your passengers? :(

If I ever cut a corner or pinch a penny anywhere in my car, its never going to be related to safety.

[Elbow]

Wow...that is crazy. Its good to hear nobody got seriously injured.


On top of improper installation , Ive seen too many non SFI rated harnesses installed in cars everywhere. I understand saving money, but damn at the price of safety of yourself and your passengers? :(

If I ever cut a corner or pinch a penny anywhere in my car, its never going to be related to safety.

I don't care about my safety but yeah others is important. I race for the danger.



:ninja:

[Nemesis]

lol seat belts are for pussies!

[speedminded]

I don't care about my safety but yeah others is important. I race for the danger.



:ninja:Keep fooling yourself on the danger part there James Dean until you get into IRL or F1 lol! Tin roof closed cockpit cars don't even make any top list of dangerous jobs I know of...gonna die from heat stroke before you get injured in a wreck. Want danger you'll have to be in the hot pits changing tires or putting in fuel.



lol seat belts are for pussies!Yeah, that's exactly what Dale Earnhardt said lol!

[Elbow]

Keep fooling yourself on the danger part there James Dean until you get into IRL or F1 lol! Tin roof closed cockpit cars don't even make any top list of dangerous jobs I know of...gonna die from heat stroke before you get injured in a wreck. Want danger you'll have to be in the hot pits changing tires or putting in fuel.


Yeah, that's exactly what Dale Earnhardt said lol!

I've never wanted to race IRL or F1. Corner working superbikes is dangerous. :???: I guess? :???:

[speedminded]

I've never wanted to race IRL or F1. Corner working superbikes is dangerous. :???: I guess? :???:I think it's only as dangerous as the worker lacks common sense. I've seen them run out and get hit trying to help someone...instead of just flagging the other riders. It's not like they can do anything for a rider that's down in the kitty litter or tangled against a barrier anyways, they don't have a single piece of equipment an EMT has.

For the most part corner workers and corner marshalls are on it, other times they freeze or don't think when it's something serious or a situation they haven't handled before...of course it comes with experience too but drivers and riders aren't out there as guinea pigs to practice on.

At RA we had one of our cars lose oil pressure and come around 6 at a snails pace with smoke coming out under the car and hood and as it stopped on the outside in the grass before 7 and the oil running down caught on fire under the car....2 of the inside workers ran out across the track to the car leaving the fire bottles on the wall. I'm yelling at them to come back and get one as the corner marshal watches. I go over to the corner marshal and ask why his workers didn't grab a bottle for a car that was clearly on fire with black smoke coming out and then he yells in the radio for one to come back and get a bottle....like seriously? Sometimes can't fix stupid.

[Elbow]

I think it's only as dangerous as the worker lacks common sense. I've seen them run out and get hit trying to help someone...instead of just flagging the other riders. It's not like they can do anything for a rider that's down in the kitty litter or tangled against a barrier anyways, they don't have a single piece of equipment an EMT has.

For the most part corner workers and corner marshalls are on it, other times they freeze or don't think when it's something serious or a situation they haven't handled before...of course it comes with experience too but drivers and riders aren't out there as guinea pigs to practice on.

At RA we had one of our cars lose oil pressure and come around 6 at a snails pace with smoke coming out under the car and hood and as it stopped on the outside in the grass before 7 and the oil running down caught on fire under the car....2 of the inside workers ran out across the track to the car leaving the fire bottles on the wall. I'm yelling at them to come back and get one as the corner marshal watches. I go over to the corner marshal and ask why his workers didn't grab a bottle for a car that was clearly on fire with black smoke coming out and then he yells in the radio for one to come back and get a bottle....like seriously? Sometimes can't fix stupid.

Not very true, AMA tells their workers to run and get bikes/riders up. They want everything moved ASAP no matter what. Ever worked it? It's pretty intense jumping having bikes flying around you. :lmfao: It's pretty bad ass standing facing a field of superbikes coming at you on the second lap standing on the track.

Fire is a different type of deal, usually at Road Atlanta you can run without a bottle because of where they're placed along the walls. Half of those SCCA workers are all volunteers and don't do it all the time so they're bound to screw up, nothing is professional it's just a club.

You're right though the most dangerous part of corner working is screwing yourself up by turning your back to a hot track, not thinking, freezing, etc.

[dazn]

Keep fooling yourself on the danger part there James Dean until you get into IRL or F1 lol! Tin roof closed cockpit cars don't even make any top list of dangerous jobs I know of...gonna die from heat stroke before you get injured in a wreck. Want danger you'll have to be in the hot pits changing tires or putting in fuel.


Yeah, that's exactly what Dale Earnhardt said lol!


Not very true, AMA tells their workers to run and get bikes/riders up. They want everything moved ASAP no matter what. Ever worked it? It's pretty intense jumping having bikes flying around you. :lmfao: It's pretty bad ass standing facing a field of superbikes coming at you on the second lap standing on the track.

Fire is a different type of deal, usually at Road Atlanta you can run without a bottle because of where they're placed along the walls. Half of those SCCA workers are all volunteers and don't do it all the time so they're bound to screw up, nothing is professional it's just a club.

You're right though the most dangerous part of corner working is screwing yourself up by turning your back to a hot track, not thinking, freezing, etc.

Having been a corner worker at RA while in college and a current crew member(tire changer and occasional fueler) I would rather be on a corner station anyday as far as safety goes. Corner working is fairly safe as long as you are competent and the people working with you and directing you are competent. unfortunately, that is not the case with SCCA. Most of those volunteers are a joke. although I will say working motorcycles does have a different level of caution involved as those things can become flaming projectiles.

and about the original post, I see what the problem is, its a Dorifto car. drift cars are some of the scariest built cars I have seen except for your bottom rung SCCA cars. Its unbelievable what some people will drive. not saying they are all crap, but a lot are.

[Elbow]

Having been a corner worker at RA while in college and a current crew member(tire changer and occasional fueler) I would rather be on a corner station anyday as far as safety goes. Corner working is fairly safe as long as you are competent and the people working with you and directing you are competent. unfortunately, that is not the case with SCCA. Most of those volunteers are a joke. although I will say working motorcycles does have a different level of caution involved as those things can become flaming projectiles.

and about the original post, I see what the problem is, its a Dorifto car. drift cars are some of the scariest built cars I have seen except for your bottom rung SCCA cars. Its unbelievable what some people will drive. not saying they are all crap, but a lot are.

I couldn't agree with you more. I've never felt in danger corner working cars.

[chuck]

I couldn't agree with you more. I've never felt in danger corner working cars.

you must be working limited tracks...i'd get scared driving CMP because the corner workers are literally right next to the track, behind a dinky little tire wall.


as far as the seat...aren't the seats designed to fold back under a load?? i thought that was a roll-over precaution...or are you guys talking about something different?? :thinking:

[Elbow]

Well speaking of Road Atlanta only. I've never worked anywhere else.

[speedminded]

you must be working limited tracks...i'd get scared driving CMP because the corner workers are literally right next to the track, behind a dinky little tire wall.


as far as the seat...aren't the seats designed to fold back under a load?? i thought that was a roll-over precaution...or are you guys talking about something different?? :thinking:Street cars is one thing but race cars is a totally different situation. They are caged and you're harnessed. A seat back breaking on the track means you no longer have a harness against you...which means you are no longer secure. Nearly all road race sanctions require non-FIA conforming seats to have a brace behind it to prevents this from happening.

With a harness bolted to the floor behind you it's pulling you DOWN into the seat, not back into the seat. Guaranteed to have spinal compression issues with even the slightest impact. A harness that is compressing your spine and your seat back breaks at the same time? I'm still trying to figure out the 45 degree angle that FIA allows when manufactures say never to go over 10-20 degrees from horizontal...

Also, when the distance is more than 20" from the driver to anchor point it's recommended that they are crossed. More material means more stretch and ability to move or spread, if they are cross it will hold the driver more secure...tighter as they move forward during an impact. This isn't needed if the anchor point is less than 20" from the drivers shoulders.

[EP3sAreFun]

Also, when the distance is more than 20" from the driver to anchor point it's recommended that they are crossed. More material means more stretch and abilitly to move...if they are cross it can hold the driver more secure. This isn't needed if the anchor point is less than 20" from the drivers shoulders.

I have a question on this. I have a real race harness that was given to me because it was only used for 1 season, I can't recall the name... but it might as well be a simpson belt. BUT the shoulder straps have a sewn in brace.

so they look like an H (see the pic in blue)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3806/harness.jpg

this was the way they came. is this just an old style? not as safe as crossing them?

[speedminded]

I have a question on this. I have a real race harness that was given to me because it was only used for 1 season, I can't recall the name... but it might as well be a simpson belt. BUT the shoulder straps have a sewn in brace.

so they look like an H (see the pic in blue)

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3806/harness.jpg

this was the way they came. is this just an old style? not as safe as crossing them?It all depends where they are being mounted. Being a true race harness you can look up the manufactures installation instructions online.

[Elbow]

Is that piece you colored in blue a clip that you can or can't wear? I had a Simpson with that I just never buckled it.

What car are they going in and does it have a bar? I see lots of drag race specific harnesses with that h style on them.

[EP3sAreFun]

Is that piece you colored in blue a clip that you can or can't wear? I had a Simpson with that I just never buckled it.

What car are they going in and does it have a bar? I see lots of drag race specific harnesses with that h style on them.

the harness is red, and the crossover piece is the same red material as the belt, its sewn and would be positioned behind the seat.

This harness WAS going to go into my starion when i first got it. I had big dreams of a full cage and road course car. of course now it just sits in my garage. No, i have no plans of bolting it into my full interior car as it sits now ;)

just curious because it would seem this cross over would not allow the "X" crossover.

I can get a pic if you guy's would like to see, oddly enough i can't find another one online.

[Elbow]

You're talking about like this right?

http://www.racequip.com/images/400_safequip_5_point_latch_link_harness_h_style_fr ont_view.jpg

You don't HAVE to do an x cross, that's only when it's bolted in somewhere else. Lots of FIA cars don't even mount them that way.

[JessAlba452]

Hmm...is this the car that hit the wall @ Gresham last week??

[Elbow]

Hmm...is this the car that hit the wall @ Gresham last week??

Ja.

[EP3sAreFun]

You're talking about like this right?

http://www.racequip.com/images/400_safequip_5_point_latch_link_harness_h_style_fr ont_view.jpg

You don't HAVE to do an x cross, that's only when it's bolted in somewhere else. Lots of FIA cars don't even mount them that way.

yes exactly, but its MUCH thicker. cool. good to know