Who's fault is it???

[allmotorX]

Im not going to name any shops or names and im not flaming or trying to disrepect by any means!! So ill get to the point few months ago i drop my car off at a reputable shop to get some work done. So after the work was finished i paid through paypal and i actually paid alot more than what i owed because i was being greatful for the shop working with me. So i get to the shop crank up the car runs good idles fine no problems so far. Well while on the way home few min down the road camshaft locks up, which causes the timing belt to twist the cam gear off ruining it completely. Well went back to the shop and they had the car towed back to the shop which was only a few min away. Then once they took the head off come to find out it locked up in #2 journal. So i take the head to machine shop the first shop told me that i would need a new head and cam(keep in mind camshaft is smack brandnew) so me being hard headed i took it to another machine shop and they told me the same thing the cam cant be fixed and i would need a new head. So i get a new head and then i send the cam off to get repaired two days later(today) i get a call saying i might as well buy a new chamshaft. Long story short im pretty much out of a head, a camshaft, and camgear. Which adds up to about 600+. Also i had to pay for the new head and work done at the machine shop so in all im outta of more money than what i was actually suppose to be out of. I just want opinions on who you think should pay for a new cam, and camgear. And who should have paid for the head work at the machine shop? all opinions welcomed

[allmotorX]

Another thing before i took the head to the shop the machine shop that i had put it together told me that the camshaft rotated freely with no problems and everything was good. But after i take it to the shop to get the work done to the car. I called to check up on the car and they tell me the cam was seized in the head and they had to take it apart and repair it which is also stated on the reciept. If i remember more ill add it aswell

[Vteckidd]

What specifically did you have done. I'm assuming cam install?

I've seen brand new bisi cams break after being properly installed

shithappens

[Vteckidd]

What kind of cam was it

[allmotorX]

motor swap install basically and it was a bisi lev3 camshaft for z6

[allmotorX]

What specifically did you have done. I'm assuming cam install?

I've seen brand new bisi cams break after being properly installed

shithappensYea the shop said they've seen bisi cams lock up before, but a friend of mine looked at the head and told me that it could have locked up due to trash getting into journals or low oiling

[Vteckidd]

I saw a brand new bisi cam lock up and break in a sohc head.

The shop that installed the cam also installed prob close to 10 sets of cams for myself, and they use a tq wrench, lube etc so I know it wasn't an "install" error.

Not really anyones fault because you can't prove if it was a head problem, machine shop problem, install error, parts failure, etc

[Vteckidd]

How many miles on the head? Can't throw new cam in a 100-200k miles head if the journal clearance is off that will cause your problem. That's not shops fault that's justusing an old head

bad luck really

[allmotorX]

Thats something to think about and yea your right thanks for your opinion^

[allmotorX]

How many miles on the head? Can't throw new cam in a 100-200k miles head if the journal clearance is off that will cause your problem. That's not shops fault that's justusing an old head

bad luck reallydont know bought if off a guy in macon few months ago

[allmotorX]

How many miles on the head? Can't throw new cam in a 100-200k miles head if the journal clearance is off that will cause your problem. That's not shops fault that's justusing an old head

bad luck reallyAnd for you to say thats from using an old head when you dont know how many miles on it is out of the question

[Vteckidd]

And for you to say thats from using an old head when you dont know how many miles on it is out of the question

Well at best it's 14 years old at worst 17

you think it has 20k on it? Lol

it prob has over 100k easily

[Vteckidd]

I'm just saying when you use old stuff like that shit happens

[Init2winit]

Sounds like there was an oiling problem on that journal, for whatever reason.

[Vteckidd]

Or the cam was ground wrong

[allmotorX]

could have been from head not being cleaned properly, which would in that case cause trash to get caught in the journal

[allmotorX]

Or the cam was ground wrongwhen you say this what do you mean?

[Black4DrEK]

I say Mechanical failure..

[MidLifeCrisis]

Tons of issues to look at here, besides the issue of how horrible the OP is at telling the story. :D

1. Could have been the bisimoto ground the cam wrong, although honestly it was probably a regrind which shouldnt be a brand new one off cam.

2. Could have been oiling issues, not just from the head but from a shitty oil pump, or nasty oil flow through the craptastic block. when stuff is this old and youre doing this much work and piecing together a motor like this, each part should be 110% inspected and cleaned by a reputable machine shop.

3. Basic engine swap? So the shop didn't install the cam or assemble the motor? If not who did?

More than likely its fates fault and youll need to try again, this time paying closer attention to the details.

[allmotorX]

Tons of issues to look at here, besides the issue of how horrible the OP is at telling the story. :D

1. Could have been the bisimoto ground the cam wrong, although honestly it was probably a regrind which shouldnt be a brand new one off cam.

2. Could have been oiling issues, not just from the head but from a shitty oil pump, or nasty oil flow through the craptastic block. when stuff is this old and youre doing this much work and piecing together a motor like this, each part should be 110% inspected and cleaned by a reputable machine shop.

3. Basic engine swap? So the shop didn't install the cam or assemble the motor? If not who did?

More than likely its fates fault and youll need to try again, this time paying closer attention to the details.
Bisi doesnt make regrinds for vtec motor for one and the motor wasnt pieced together, and if you read the second post i said the shop who did the swap told me the cam wa siezed when i brought it up there, and he had to take it apart to repair it, but before i took it to them i had the machine shop put the head together for me

[Supraboy87T]

Sucks. So apparently they can't fix the cam? Hope you find out what caused the failure so I can watch out for it and prevent it from happening to me.

[allmotorX]

Car is going up for sale soon im done with this import shit!!! ^ best thing to do to prevent it from happening is not to get one at all

[Black4DrEK]

Didnt this shop "rebuild" or "Build" the motor..Whateva i think its BS the whole situation..

All the TIME and MONEY you gave them.. I DONT think a motor should have fucked up the DAY you get it back from them..

[allmotorX]

Nah i assembled the block i had the head assembled at a machine shop to make sure the cam rotated freely without any interferences. I basically was missing alot of bolts and other lil shit i took the shell to them and had them source out the bolts and finish assembling the motor, and also drop it in and get it running properly which they did, but like i said later on after i picked it up maybe 10-15min later i was on my way back up there cause of the cam lockage.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Did the machine shop hot tank the head?

[allmotorX]

no^

[EmminoDaGreat]

Didnt this shop "rebuild" or "Build" the motor..Whateva i think its BS the whole situation..

All the TIME and MONEY you gave them.. I DONT think a motor should have fucked up the DAY you get it back from them..



You had a cam break, and did you get anything back from the person you purchased it from?


I have seen a lot of single cam cams break, many of the times sheering at the cam gear, A bisi turbo billet cam, comp/zex cams etc..

The only ones I have seen not break are s2 and one other one, I cant remember right this second.

I think a lot of this has to do that a lot of people will piece together the motor, instead of bringing a complete running motor to be built. Its hard to say who is responsible.

[allmotorX]

i kinda blame myself for everything now that i sit back and think about it some more only thing im really just pissed at is i only drove the car for maybe 3-4 miles down the road and shit just completely shuts down meaning i wasted alot of money and now i have to buy alot of shit that was brandnew over again

[Black4DrEK]

You had a cam break, and did you get anything back from the person you purchased it from?


I have seen a lot of single cam cams break, many of the times sheering at the cam gear, A bisi turbo billet cam, comp/zex cams etc..

The only ones I have seen not break are s2 and one other one, I cant remember right this second.

I think a lot of this has to do that a lot of people will piece together the motor, instead of bringing a complete running motor to be built. Its hard to say who is responsible.


Yes i did... That shitty B16 i baught from 'The BUCKY'... What ever happend to that D bag?

[allmotorX]

Thanks for the advice^^

[Vteckidd]

Bottom line is you will never know. Could be anything

that's what happens when you use x,y,z to do things

[allmotorX]

and thats suppose to mean what^

[blackshine007]

Damn, Les, you suck at telling stories! I guess I'll tell it the best way I know of being that you were about to worry the hell out of me the whole way through......

First off, AllmotorX assembled the block.... and I think he borrowed my tq wrench. I know he borrowed my piston ring compressor tool. He wanted me to assemble the head, I told him to take it to a machine shop to make sure that everything was alright with the head and that since we have heard cases of the cams locking up in the heads, the machine shop would make sure that it will spin freely before leaving. He drops the head off at the machine shop to assemble the head with the cam in it. THe machine shop got the head installed and they had an issue with the cam trying to lock up but they insured him that they can fix it, no problem. After everything is all said and done, they give him the head and put on the receipt that the cam was trying to lock up and that was fixed.

He called me up and we tow the car along with the motor and trans down to the shop. We show them were all the parts were that we had at the time and they insured us that what he didn't have that they would go get it and install it for whatever it might have cost them. Real stand up guys in my eyes.

A few weeks later they're putting everything together and they call him up stating that there's an issue with the cam freezing up in the head. AllmotorX told them that was the main reason he took it to the machine shop in the first place was to insure that the cam didn't lock up in the head. they said it's no problem and that they can unfreeze it from the head. They call back and said they got it to unfreeze from the head since they had to degree the cam anyways. Later on, they got the car running, drove it around and said that it was ready, but before they pick it up, the water pump that AllmotorX gave to them was leaking so they'll put one on before he drives down.

So (quite) a few weeks later when he got the money up, he drove to the shop to go pick up the car. He paid via paypal and they insured him the car was good to go. So no more than 15-20 minutes of highway driving and the car broke down. The car got towed back to the shop. THe first think they noticed was the cam gear, which had broken off and damaged the keyway on the cam. They take the cam out and it had spun dry on 2 of the journals. They pull the head off and naturally, the valves were bent on the exhaust side.

He brought the head and the cams home and I was just so in the neighborhood so I checked it out. Upon inspection of the cams, the cams looked as if there were trash in it. It didn't have deep discolored scars on the cam as if it were out of round and it didn't have major wear on the head itself. It did have thick pieces of metal on the cam which appeared to be the trash that might have caused the cam to lock up in the first place.

In all, I don't know who you would peg responsible for for the cam lock up but as a technician and a business man myself, if it were me, I would at least get ahold of the machine shop and ask to go half on the cam being that they did claim to fix the problem and whether or not it was done correctly or not, there's a receipt claiming that they did. And the shop claimed to have fixed what apparrently wasn't fixed properly.

That's the entire story.

Knowing that info, who would you blame for that? THe machine shop or the shop who put it together?

[allmotorX]

way to make a long story short^

[blackshine007]

If you're gonna tell a story, tell it all :yes:

[allmotorX]

i tried to sum it up and btw i never got any receipts from machine shop only the shop who put the motor in

[blackshine007]

I thought you told me you had a receipt from them..... That's probably why they don't care about the situation at hand.

[allmotorX]

No never said that. I told you what he told me and i quote " I spun the cam and it spun freely with no problems"!

[Vteckidd]

Sounds like you had a problem, and machine shop didn't diagnose it properly.

Not the shops fault. Machine shop maybe but I doubt you'll get anything out of it

[DarKStaR]

I witnessed the cam trying to lock up. After it was finally adjusted right, it did start spinning. It was on the tight side though. I was also there when the car went on a test drive and drove just like it was supposed to, before and after the water pump install. Its hard to say its 1 person's fault. I know of another local person that has had problems with a sohc bisi cam. It was just one of those freak accidents, trust me i know all about them. But as far as the shop who built it, everything is always done by the book and experience. Not taking sides of anyone but just giving my opinion.

[allmotorX]

^I should have done abit more research before buying the cam i bought it because of bisi rep as a sohc enthusiast but then this happens

[MidLifeCrisis]

Sounds like you had a problem, and machine shop didn't diagnose it properly.

Not the shops fault. Machine shop maybe but I doubt you'll get anything out of it

Most likely not. Theyre gonna point the finger at aftermarket cam, and nothing will ever come of it.

This time around, take the new head and new cam to a more reputible machine shop that has more experience with import stuff and have them check the clearances of the head and cam 100%. Not just put it together and spin it and see what happens. When shit like that is happening, theres no real "fixing" it. Except to maybe line bore the cam journals. Adn that would have been mucho monies.

[blackshine007]

I witnessed the cam trying to lock up. After it was finally adjusted right, it did start spinning. It was on the tight side though. I was also there when the car went on a test drive and drove just like it was supposed to, before and after the water pump install. Its hard to say its 1 person's fault. I know of another local person that has had problems with a sohc bisi cam. It was just one of those freak accidents, trust me i know all about them. But as far as the shop who built it, everything is always done by the book and experience. Not taking sides of anyone but just giving my opinion.
Like I said, stand up guys. They're cool in my book :goodjob:

[allmotorX]

Most likely not. Theyre gonna point the finger at aftermarket cam, and nothing will ever come of it.

This time around, take the new head and new cam to a more reputible machine shop that has more experience with import stuff and have them check the clearances of the head and cam 100%. Not just put it together and spin it and see what happens. When shit like that is happening, theres no real "fixing" it. Except to maybe line bore the cam journals. Adn that would have been mucho monies.Yep this i know!

[EmminoDaGreat]

Just because a cam spins freely when its cold doesnt meen its right..

[Supraboy87T]

Hey Les, dont let it get you down homie. Just look at it as a chance to start fresh even though it is a small set back. Just find a new and/or a better brand cam and go from there. Need to get that worked out that way I can figure out what way to go beings our builds are so similar. LOL. I would blame machine shop for problem but good luck getting anything from them.

[blackshine007]

YOu should buy a minivan now and throw the hatch away, lololol...... maybe you should buy this minivan....
http://image.truckinweb.com/f/8324979/0608tr_11_z+2003_custom_dodge_caravan+side_view.jp g
http://image.truckinweb.com/f/8324991/0608tr_08_z+2003_custom_dodge_caravan+engine_super charger.jpg

http://www.truckinweb.com/brandpages/dodge/0608tr_2003_custom_dodge_caravan/index.html

[Patterson]

i'm sorry but i would go back to the last person to have the caps off. i don't know the shop or you but if the cam had clearance issues, trash, whatever then it should have got caught between the two. mainly the last to have it apart. if it was locking up not running then it should have came apart right then and found the problem. just my :2cents:

[JJSPEC Racing]

You know what is really crazy? We had a 97 Civic with 166725 miles on the odometer, driven by a 52 year old man break down in the middle of Gray Highway in front ot the shop just last week. We thought it just had a broken timing belt, but we pulled the cover off and the cam pulley was lose and spun out. Pulled the rocker arms off and the cam was locked down. The engine was clean on the inside and the oil was not low. We ended up putting another head on it. As far as "trash", it sounds like you saw the aluminum that would have transferred to the cam upon lock up as there is some metal transfer.

[allmotorX]

^ I looked at head it was pieces from the journal not trash like stated before who knows what caused it im not pointing fingers just getting opinions

[JJSPEC Racing]

Was the rocker arm holder the one that came with the head? Just wondering as they are machined together when the factory produces them.

[allmotorX]

yea it was the original one

[Slomaro Z28]

Sucks, but SOHC's are a dime a dozen....save up and buy another one.

[allmotorX]

it aint the motor i need to save for its the cam shit aint cheap

[TommyD1919]

If you supplied the parts, the shops not going to be responsible. I would say def. give the machine shop a call and tell them what happened and see how that goes. But crazy stuff does happen even with the "best" of shops. I sent a friend to a shop that is a sponsor on IA to have some work done because I had no time to do it .It turned into the worst experience ever and the work was TERRIBLE.

[VTECking]

I just want opinions on who you think should pay for a new cam, and camgear. And who should have paid for the head work at the machine shop? all opinions welcomed
Well first off did you drive the piss out of the car as soon as you got it back w/the motor still being cold? If you did this then it may have been your fault.

[allmotorX]

Well first off did you drive the piss out of the car as soon as you got it back w/the motor still being cold? If you did this then it may have been your fault.No offense to you but why the fuck would i drive the piss outta of a car knowing it needs a tune and its a brandnew motor i was crusing for your info im not a dumbass like most people!

[TheChosenOne]

Did you have a basemap for the motor? You did say they had to degree the cam.

[VTECking]

No offense to you but why the fuck would i drive the piss outta of a car knowing it needs a tune and its a brandnew motor i was crusing for your info im not a dumbass like most people!
Easy there hot shot, I was just making sure that you wernt.

[allmotorX]

Did you have a basemap for the motor? You did say they had to degree the cam. Yea i had a basemap one reason why i wasnt getting on it

[southside]

Damn neither one of us has goodluck with these HONDAS~! I vote we start up a DONK club and call it a day.:lmao:

[allmotorX]

I actually thought about that, but this whole thread is pointless shit was my fault all along

[Nemesis]

Its good to see there was no finger pointing and OP learned a good lesson.


+Reps givin all around.

[Black4DrEK]

YUP YUP

Now the motor is in gooood hands:D

[Vteckidd]

If you supplied the parts, the shops not going to be responsible. I would say def. give the machine shop a call and tell them what happened and see how that goes. But crazy stuff does happen even with the "best" of shops. I sent a friend to a shop that is a sponsor on IA to have some work done because I had no time to do it .It turned into the worst experience ever and the work was TERRIBLE.

Was that the 2j rx7 that wrote a bad check and dissappeared?

[Tree]

its all your fault for doing a na sohc... jkjk

[allmotorX]

lol yep this is true^^^ should have went j35

[dirk-diggler]

what machine shop cleaned the head and what all did they do to it.

[Tree]

lol yep this is true^^^ should have went j35

nope. j35 when bore it to a 3.7l:eek:

run what you brung?

[preferredduck]

How many miles on the head? Can't throw new cam in a 100-200k miles head if the journal clearance is off that will cause your problem. That's not shops fault that's justusing an old head

bad luck really

but a knowledgable shop staff wuold know about this and say send to the machine shop first, correct. if they really cared and knew they would.

[NOCLUE]

well i hope u get the build done go skunk2 cam this time, i no after this i am, kind scared of bisi now:(