Obamacare's Cost

[MachNU]

The House of Representatives has now passed its version of health care reform — a gargantuan 2,000-page, 70-pound collection of mandates, regulations, and subsidies that may well be among the most expensive pieces of legislation in U.S. history.

When the bill was first introduced, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that it would cost $1.1 trillion over the next 10 years. However, as is the way with government programs, that cost has already begun to grow. By the time the "managers amendment" and certain provisions had been added to the bill, the final product was projected to cost more than $1.7 trillion.

In theory, this increase in spending would be partially offset by $628 billion in Medicare cuts, giving the bill a "net" cost of slightly more than $1 trillion. But how likely is it that those cuts will take place? After all, this is an administration that is paying seniors $250 to make up for the fact that they didn't get a Social Security cost-of-living increase this year (because the cost of living didn't increase). And Congress is in the process of repealing a scheduled increase in Medicare premiums.

To see how this may play out, look what Congress is doing about the so-called "doc fix."

Under current law, there is supposed to be a 21 percent cut in reimbursements to Medicare providers next year. But no one in Washington seriously believes that Congress will let that happen. In fact, those cuts have been supposed to take place every year since 2003. And every year Congress postpones them until the following year.

However, in order to pretend that their bill costs less than it actually does, the Democrats simply assume that this time Congress will let those cuts take effect. Then, in an unparalleled display of cynicism, they have introduced a separate bill repealing those cuts at a cost of $200 billion.

That means that the cost of the "doc fix" isn't technically part of health care reform. And your household budget would look so much better if you didn't have to pay your mortgage and car payment. (The Senate tried to do something similar, only to have the cynical ploy rejected 53-47, with 13 Democrats refusing to play along.)

Moreover, the CBO provides 10-year projections of a bill's cost, between 2010 and 2019 in this case. Yet, while the taxes and other revenue measures in the bill kick in immediately, most of the spending doesn't take effect until 2014.

So the "10-year" cost projection includes only six years of the bill. Wouldn't it be great if you could count a whole month's income, but only two weeks' expenditures in your household budget?

If we look at the bill more honestly over the first 10 years that the programs are actually in existence, say from 2014 to 2024, it would actually cost nearly $3 trillion.

There has been a lot of talk recently about "bending the curve" of health care spending, but as the actuaries at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) recently noted, the House bill bends the curve in the wrong direction — increasing government health care costs.

All this new spending will be accompanied by equally massive federal tax hikes, roughly $500 billion over the first 10 years — $770 billion if the penalties for failing to comply with the mandate are included.

Furthermore, much of the bill's cost is shifted off the federal books onto businesses, individuals, and state governments. These business and individual mandates are the equivalent of tax increases, but those costs aren't included in the bill's cost estimates.

Under the House bill, many small businesses that do not currently provide health insurance would have to do so, or they may face a new tax of up to 8 percent of payroll. Other businesses that do offer insurance, but whose benefits are not as comprehensive as the government mandates, will have to purchase new, more expensive policies. This cost may not be included in a CBO "score," but it is a very real cost for businesses — especially at a time of 10.2 percent unemployment.

Similarly, individuals will also have to buy insurance that meets the government's minimum benefit standards or pay up to 2.5 percent of their income as a penalty. That added burden is a cost, too.

So is the cost of increased insurance premiums — and nearly everyone agrees that insurance premiums will go up under reform, especially for younger and healthier people.

And state governments will have to pick up at least part of the cost for the bill's Medicaid expansion. In fact, already strapped states could have to come up with as much as $34 billion.

This is all taking place at a time when the government is facing an unprecedented budgetary crisis. The U.S. budget deficit hit $1.4 trillion in 2009, and we are expected to add as much as $9 trillion to the national debt over the next 10 years, a debt that is already in excess of $12 trillion and rising at a rate of nearly $4 billion per day.

Social Security will begin running deficits in 2016, and Medicare even sooner than that. Under current projections, government spending will rise from its traditional 20-21 percent of our gross domestic product to 40 percent by 2050. That would require a doubling of the tax burden just to keep up.

Add a multi-trillion-dollar health care bill on top of that, and we risk permanently damaging our economy and leaving our children and grandchildren an unconscionable burden of debt and taxes.

There is now widespread consensus that our health care system needs some kind of reform.

But surely it must be possible to control health care costs, improve quality, and extend coverage to more people without bankrupting the nation.

Health care reform now goes to the Senate. There are 3 trillion reasons to hope they are not as fiscally reckless as their counterparts in the House.

Who ever said that the Obamacare would be a great thing please tell me after this that you still think so. Its already projected at MINIMUM over 10 years to cost about 2.5 TRILLION. When at the start he said all this would cost 8-900 billion. Which would then in turn be cust lower after all the cost cuts it does.

Then whats even more funny is that for either the 6 year or 10 year plan its either going to cost 1.7 trillion or 2.5 trillion. If it goes with the 10 years, every is going to start paying for it, but it wont take affect for 4 years. So your going to pay extra for something you dont have.

Then the dumbasses in congress are banking on the "Doc Fix!" There hoping that doctors will just roll over and take a substaniel pay cut to help pay for added cost to them. All this is going to do is make most of them quit or start there own private practices.

[nreggie454]

Doctors will NOT voluntarily take a pay cut for their expertise. They are getting mauled by increasing malpractice insurance costs and most start their careers with $250,000 in debt.

[Total_Blender]

Where did you find that article? Credible journalism doesn't include statements that start with "nearly everyone agrees," you have to state who the people are that are in agreement. Also, none of the numbers they throw out is followed by a refrence to where the information is to be found in the legislation.

Just seems to me like the article you posted was cobbled together so as to make it hard for people to research the claims it makes.

[Total_Blender]

They are getting mauled by increasing malpractice insurance costs and most start their careers with $250,000 in debt.

Pretty much anyone who goes to college starts their career in debt, except trust find kids. :ninja:

[MachNU]

Where did you find that article? Credible journalism doesn't include statements that start with "nearly everyone agrees," you have to state who the people are that are in agreement. Also, none of the numbers they throw out is followed by a refrence to where the information is to be found in the legislation.

Just seems to me like the article you posted was cobbled together so as to make it hard for people to research the claims it makes.

This shows right here that you have not been watching the news lately...therefore again as all your arguments they hold no weight. This article was very similar to what I have seen shows on brief news reels on CBS and Fox5 and then on Fox News Network.

Which by you saying the numbers thrown out there again shows that you are not following it .Even the Democrat Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus said and I quote...

""Just for a second -- health care reform, whether you use a ten-year number or when you start in 2010 or start in 2014, wherever you start at, so it is still either $1.7 trillion or it's $2.5 trillion, depending on where you start…"

So for those believing its only going to cost the $900 billion that the rest of the democrat and obamacare people believe...that was coming from one of the senior dem. members!

[nreggie454]

Pretty much anyone who goes to college starts their career in debt, except trust find kids. :ninja:

Yeah, but the government isn't considering telling most of them what to charge for their expertise.

[MachNU]

Yeah, but the government isn't considering telling most of them what to charge for their expertise.

What do you expect. Thats what most people dont get. As the days go by we are moving slowly and more slowly towards becoming a socialist nation. Once this bill passes, your going to see ALOT less people wanting to become doctors, since its no longer where the money is. Alot of current doctors will start there own private practices, that way they can keep the government out of there pockets as much as possible.

[NevrNufTorq]

thought it was funny on that advisor today that said it would take 5-10 years or more for this plan to truly lower costs:gay:what a joke:cry:

said it before and i'll say it again, they(govt) cant even fix the roads and all they do is take our tax dollars(local and federal)and contract it out to someone who does the work:rolleyes:if they cant even figure out where all this money really went and they dont even do the work, how in the H E LL are they gonna control healthcare?????:gay:

just sayin:2cents:

[MachNU]

thought it was funny on that advisor today that said it would take 5-10 years or more for this plan to truly lower costs:gay:what a joke:cry:

said it before and i'll say it again, they(govt) cant even fix the roads and all they do is take our tax dollars(local and federal)and contract it out to someone who does the work:rolleyes:if they cant even figure out where all this money really went and they dont even do the work, how in the H E LL are they gonna control healthcare?????:gay:

just sayin:2cents:

Hell whats even worse is most people dont understand. If this bill passes your taxes ARE GOING UP! You WILL be paying MORE taxes. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Basically if you know someone who is using the Unemployment and not looking for a job...then guess what when this bill takes effect your going to be paying for that persons healthcare.

[NevrNufTorq]

Hell whats even worse is most people dont understand. If this bill passes your taxes ARE GOING UP! You WILL be paying MORE taxes. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Basically if you know someone who is using the Unemployment and not looking for a job...then guess what when this bill takes effect your going to be paying for that persons healthcare.

oh, they understand it, but they all want something free....nobody wants to work for anything. we should all have the red carpet just laid out at our feet:no:

[MachNU]

oh, they understand it, but they all want something free....nobody wants to work for anything. we should all have the red carpet just laid out at our feet:no:

Oh I know there are those out there, that are wanting it to have somone else pay for them. But I mean this to the dumbass dem's who work and such, that stand up for Obama and his ideals, and dont understand this.

What I am hoping on is that in 6 months the Republican Revolution thats going to sweep the House and Senate in early 2010 when election campigning starts happening. Then in Nov. 2010 when the votes actually happen. After that, Obama's going to become not only the worst president ever, but also a Lameduck.

[bdydrpdmazda]

What do you expect. Thats what most people dont get. As the days go by we are moving slowly and more slowly towards becoming a socialist nation. Once this bill passes, your going to see ALOT less people wanting to become doctors, since its no longer where the money is. Alot of current doctors will start there own private practices, that way they can keep the government out of there pockets as much as possible.
And in turn this will make our health care and emergency rooms worse, Canada has had this type of health care for years and its terrible. Im all about people having benefits but the government doesnt need to be in charge of our health care and hospitals. Hospitals will treat emergency situations as such but when every swinging richard can go to the hospital for free its gonna be rediculous for the people going to emergency rooms for an actual emergency.


I AM 100% AGAINST OBAMAS HEALTH CARE PLANS!

[MachNU]

And in turn this will make our health care and emergency rooms worse, Canada has had this type of health care for years and its terrible. Im all about people having benefits but the government doesnt need to be in charge of our health care and hospitals. Hospitals will treat emergency situations as such but when every swinging richard can go to the hospital for free its gonna be rediculous for the people going to emergency rooms for an actual emergency.


I AM 100% AGAINST OBAMAS HEALTH CARE PLANS!

DAM Thats a great point. I have a few friends, on xboxlive(yes xboxlive) that I have been playing games with for years, and have gotten to know them real well. We brought this up once before and 2 of them had the same answer. They have family right across the boarder, and when one of there family members is REALLY sick, they either drive them or fly them to there family member to go to a hospital down here, because it takes WAY to long up there. Hell they even said for there grandparents, they finally just had to move them into there families place in the US just so they could be in a better situation incase they had to be rushed to the hospital!

[bdydrpdmazda]

DAM Thats a great point. I have a few friends, on xboxlive(yes xboxlive) that I have been playing games with for years, and have gotten to know them real well. We brought this up once before and 2 of them had the same answer. They have family right across the boarder, and when one of there family members is REALLY sick, they either drive them or fly them to there family member to go to a hospital down here, because it takes WAY to long up there. Hell they even said for there grandparents, they finally just had to move them into there families place in the US just so they could be in a better situation incase they had to be rushed to the hospital!
it just doesnt work, it looks good on paper and sounds really good to tell everyone but when you really think about it, its about the worst thing Obama could do while hes in office. Michael Moores stupid fucking ass would like for you to believe differently though. My wife watched one of his stupid america bashing movies "sicko" thats all about other countrys health care systems that are already like this and as soon as she was done she was all about it, it drives me crazy!

[81911SC]

Pretty much anyone who goes to college starts their career in debt, except trust find kids. :ninja:That's not the point. http://smiliesftw.com/x/ugh2.gif

[Vteckidd]

Ive said it 10000 times, all this bill will do is this

Hey you have healthcare now! sorry you lost your job.

Obama wants to make the RICH poorer, not the poorer RICH. Govt cannot provide everything and if anyone thinks that MANDATING healthcare to SMALL BUSINESS in a time of UNEMPLOYMENT of 10.2% and RISING, is going to CREATE jobs, is smoking CRACK.

They dont make the connection. Raising an employers cost by mandating healthcare is going to kill jobs even more. But hey at least everyone can go to the doctor when they have a cold right?

This is a powerplay, nothing more. They are pandering to people for votes it has nothing to do with reform

[bu villain]

Good luck finding someone who cares whether it is 1 billion or 1.7 billion or whatever. Most people who care how much it costs are already against it and most people who are for it don't care about the cost. Many people claim to care about the cost but try asking them what would be a reasonable price and they would probably throw out some completely random number with no factual basis for it.

Posts like these are only providing a forum for all health care reform opponents to get together and talk about how right they are and how stupid others are for not agreeing with them. No ones mind will be changed.

[Vteckidd]

i agree the numbers have been out there for awhile. Its not going to change anyones mind.

The people that want healthcare reform dont understand what it means to jobs or the economy. All they see is "WOOOOO FREE HEALTHCARE!" or the guise that healthcare will somehow be cheaper.

[MachNU]

I still cant believe that Total Numnuts has yet to make some rebuttle against this with completely worthless facts and just making fun of everyone who actually understands politics!

[BanginJimmy]

I tried something similar with my thread asking how the bill will actually lower costs. All I got was attacks against me and no actual info on how it would lower costs.

[MachNU]

I tried something similar with my thread asking how the bill will actually lower costs. All I got was attacks against me and no actual info on how it would lower costs.

Hell I am not even asking for that. I posted up a legit article about the bill, then a quote from Max Baucus even saying that he himself says this bill is going to cost some outragous amount of money!

[BanginJimmy]

Hell I am not even asking for that. I posted up a legit article about the bill, then a quote from Max Baucus even saying that he himself says this bill is going to cost some outragous amount of money!

Its just further proof that liberals only care for agenda, not truth, consequences, or right/wrong.

[bu villain]

Its just further proof that liberals only care for agenda, not truth, consequences, or right/wrong.

First of all you can't call everyone who supports this healthcare reform a liberal (we all saw the poll that only 20% of Americans identify themselves as liberals, and many polls show that close to 50% of Americans support this bill or some form of government option). Additionally I would argue that liberals mostly believe that providing heathcare to everyone is the right thing to do (not just because of agenda). You can argue that they are oblivious to or in denial over some facts but that doesn't mean they don't have good intentions.

[Total_Blender]

You can argue that they are oblivious to or in denial over some facts but that doesn't mean they don't have good intentions.:goodjob:

I've posted many times about how the costs would be reduced...

1.) Less demand for emergency care because the uninsured won't have to use the emergency room for non-emergencies.

2.) Earlier detection of diseases like cancer because of greater access to testing/screening.

3.) Advanced directives (aka "OMG death panels!!11!!1!") helping terminal patients consult professional counsel with THEIR DOCTORS to make THEIR OWN DECISIONS about how they want to go. This will save hospitals and doctors from the liability that comes with a "Terry Schaivo" type situation.

4.) Gov't competition/regulation keeping private insurance and drug companies honest.

Honestly though, it seems that the dems are caving on all of these things. So the end result of this brouhaha will probably end up more of a gimme to Big Insurance than really menaingful/affordable health insurance for those who can't otherwise afford it. Just requiring everyone to buy the insurance their employer offers does little to fix the situation for those who aren't offered insurance by their employers, and it also doesn't address why insurance costs are so high to start with.

I'm all for single payer... the countries that do have it pay half per-capita what we pay for coverage, and I have yet to personally speak to anyone from the UK, France, or Canada who would prefer our current system over what they have.

As far as the Republican strategy, which only consists of the repetition of the vague "tort reform," I don't see why we can't have that too... From what I can tell theres bi-partisan legeslation on tort reform before congress now. :blah:

[MachNU]

First of all you can't call everyone who supports this healthcare reform a liberal (we all saw the poll that only 20% of Americans identify themselves as liberals, and many polls show that close to 50% of Americans support this bill or some form of government option). Additionally I would argue that liberals mostly believe that providing heathcare to everyone is the right thing to do (not just because of agenda). You can argue that they are oblivious to or in denial over some facts but that doesn't mean they don't have good intentions.

My god...you really cant be serious can...and I truely am asking that as a question. Are you really that dumb? How is it good intentions? So your telling me that you have no problem paying for healthcare of an illegal? Someone who doesnt work, and doesnt even try to work? Also when the national debt is already just so large, you actually care for a plan thats going to cost anywhere from 1-2x the amount they say it is? A plan that your going to start paying for, but probably wont see it implemented for 4-5 years AFTER it starts?

[MachNU]

:goodjob:

I've posted many times about how the costs would be reduced...

1.) Less demand for emergency care because the uninsured won't have to use the emergency room for non-emergencies.

2.) Earlier detection of diseases like cancer because of greater access to testing/screening.

3.) Advanced directives (aka "OMG death panels!!11!!1!") helping terminal patients consult professional counsel with THEIR DOCTORS to make THEIR OWN DECISIONS about how they want to go. This will save hospitals and doctors from the liability that comes with a "Terry Schaivo" type situation.

4.) Gov't competition/regulation keeping private insurance and drug companies honest.

Honestly though, it seems that the dems are caving on all of these things. So the end result of this brouhaha will probably end up more of a gimme to Big Insurance than really menaingful/affordable health insurance for those who can't otherwise afford it. Just requiring everyone to buy the insurance their employer offers does little to fix the situation for those who aren't offered insurance by their employers, and it also doesn't address why insurance costs are so high to start with.

I'm all for single payer... the countries that do have it pay half per-capita what we pay for coverage, and I have yet to personally speak to anyone from the UK, France, or Canada who would prefer our current system over what they have.

As far as the Republican strategy, which only consists of the repetition of the vague "tort reform," I don't see why we can't have that too... From what I can tell theres bi-partisan legeslation on tort reform before congress now. :blah:

HOLY FUCK WOW! You are no longer credable with ANYTHING you say. I hate you say it, but your head is SOOOOOO far up your ass about this, that you dont know which way is up or down, left or right!

Let me help you...

1. You cant be serious on this? Now your just talking about, now clinics and private doctors will get packed out. Making it to where you have to get an appointment for the following week. Cool emergency rooms empty out some, but after awhile of simiple sicknesses taking to long to get treated, and others that get worse from long waits, end up still going back to the emergency room. Now you have a problem at all places now. Yeah that solved the problem.

2. LOLOLOL. Yeah thats smart. It already takes a few days to get appointments for xrays/testing/screening places. Here lets give cheap healthcare to ALOT of people who did not afford it. Now they do, they start placing appointments...take a guess at what happens. Now the access to those testing/screening places just got even smaller than before.

3. This one is just assine. Now we take up more of doctors times at Hospitals and clinics/offices. Which means less time for other patients.

4. = More job lay offs. Oh now those companies have to compete. Alot of smaller businesses cant afford the insurance to there employee's. They start getting fined. Big business have to front the extra cost for there employee's. What do you think there going to do? Say hey cool no biggie on the cost...where not here to try and make as much profit as possible.........? FUCK NO.

Cost will get pushed onto the consumer, extra cost means less consumer's, less consumers means smaller profit, smaller profit means less need for certain jobs, less need for certain jobs means cut's and lay-offs, cuts and lay-off's mean people now without health insurance, and even worse no job!

No matter how you cut it, this healthcare will be one big push to a solicalist nation, and make the already steadily increasing unemployment rate even higher. Adding 1.5-2 TRILLION dollars to the national debt is not going to help ANYONE.

[Vteckidd]

1.) Less demand for emergency care because the uninsured won't have to use the emergency room for non-emergencies.

Ahh thank god, i thought giving 47 million more patients in the system would be a bad thing lol Your argument only is valid if we increase more doctors and nurses. It doesnt take into account the 47 MILLION more people that will enter the system if this passes. So you are going to trade busy ERs for BUSY appointments which means itll take you 3-4 times longer to see a doc. Makes no sense to me

2.) Earlier detection of diseases like cancer because of greater access to testing/screening.

Again what good is early detection if it takes you double to triple the time to get in to the doctor in the first place? What happens when that MRI doesnt tell your doctor what he needs and he orders a second and it gets denied? Purely conjecture but it COULD happen. I dont see any benefit from any sort of "early detection" that is in this bill. So you are going to require people to go into the doctor to get tests done now? sounds kind of spooky

3.) Advanced directives (aka "OMG death panels!!11!!1!") helping terminal patients consult professional counsel with THEIR DOCTORS to make THEIR OWN DECISIONS about how they want to go. This will save hospitals and doctors from the liability that comes with a "Terry Schaivo" type situation.

I dont believe the death panels thing at all, i think it was blown out of proportion by Hannity and others. But i have seen SOME of the wording that was saying no chemo for people over 65, no mamograms for women over 55, and other stuff i hope they strip out.

4.) Gov't competition/regulation keeping private insurance and drug companies honest.

WRONG because you have never owned a business. GOVERNMENT DOESNT NEED TO MAKE A PROFIT, and if you havent noticed, it can run at HUGE DEFICITS for years at a time. Show me a company that can operate with 1/10th our national debt and still be solvent or profitable. you cant.

All the govt will do is cheat and lie and make things "cheaper" on the surface. It will put companies out of business which will add to unemployment. Im all for reform ,but this is a POWER PLAY, plain and simple. How can the govt keep private insurance and drug companies "honest" when it has NO IDEA HOW THOSE COMPANIES OPERATE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

So now you want guys like Baucus and Frank telling the drup companies how and what they can charge? Are you listening to whats coming out of your mouth.

Why not just get rid of all insurance all together, fuck it, why have it in the first place.

Imagine i came to your place of business, and setup an identical shop next door. Imagine you charge $10 for your "product" and i start charging $1 for the same exact thing. Im losing money but what do i care im offering my product to everyone. I tank YOUR market and your business because you cant compete with me. I run up huge debts then walk away after you have long closed up shop and been on unemployment.

Sounds fair?

[Total_Blender]

HOLY FUCK WOW! You are no longer credable with ANYTHING you say. I hate you say it, but your head is SOOOOOO far up your ass about this, that you dont know which way is up or down, left or right!
.

Who pissed in your Post Toasties this morning? :lmfao:

VTECHJUSTKICKEDINYOKIDD, now you guys agree with me that there are 47 million uninsured... when it suits the argument you are trying to make. Last week you all were trying to play it down to 12 million or whatever. :screwy:

Any way that expands healthcare coverage to the uninsured will create increased demand on the system, regardless of which party comes up with it. In the "snowball's chance in hell" scenario that the rethuglicans draft some sort of universal coverage solution, there would be just as much increased demand. But whose to say that our system won't grow accomodate it? Doctors who get re-imbursed at medicare rates are still getting paid a whole hell of a lot more than garbage men or burger flippers. So the incentive for for people to become doctors is still there. It may not be top dollar, but its still good money for what it is.

[Vteckidd]

Who pissed in your Post Toasties this morning? :lmfao:

VTECHJUSTKICKEDINYOKIDD, now you guys agree with me that there are 47 million uninsured... when it suits the argument you are trying to make. Last week you all were trying to play it down to 12 million or whatever. :screwy:

Any way that expands healthcare coverage to the uninsured will create increased demand on the system, regardless of which party comes up with it. In the "snowball's chance in hell" scenario that the rethuglicans draft some sort of universal coverage solution, there would be just as much increased demand. But whose to say that our system won't grow accomodate it? Doctors who get re-imbursed at medicare rates are still getting paid a whole hell of a lot more than garbage men or burger flippers. So the incentive for for people to become doctors is still there. It may not be top dollar, but its still good money for what it is.
I like using YOUR numbers so then we cant argue. I guess there goes that argument.

Fine call it 12 million, 20 million, 5 million it doesnt matter. It all adds up to HOLY FUCK THATS A LOT MORE PATIENTS!

Ever tried dumping 5 million more people into say..........the unemployment lines? Welfare? PS3 Network? Xbox Live? Banking Systems?

whatever MILLION it is, its A LOT. PERIOD. YOu cant service that many people with the current work force. Not going to happen. No amount of government intervention is going to change that. You cant force hire doctors. Well he could, but there goes your standard of care.

Republicans dont want any form of this universal coverage. What planet are you on?

They know that the private sector does a 100000000 times better job than the Government could even think about doing. Theres this urgency to fix a 6% section of our economy. by 2020 the GOVERNMENT will be spending roughly 40% of our GDP lol. Why isnt SPENDING talked about being as dire as fixing healthcare?

Try answering some of the questions i posed.

They could do some sort of OPTIONAL emergency care/liability coverage that can cover a person in the dire of consequences. Like if you walked outside and broke your leg. Make it cover xrays and such.

They could have some type of catastrophic coverage for stuff like a 30 year old getting cancer or something of those sorts.

They could decrease medicaid and medicare fraud and abuse (in the billions last year).

Tort Reform is a necessity as well i dont see how you could say it wasnt.

Theres 1000000 better options all of which are being ignored.

[Vteckidd]

Doctors who get re-imbursed at medicare rates are still getting paid a whole hell of a lot more than garbage men or burger flippers.

I love that sense of ambition. "hey you went through 8-10 years of schooling , at least you dont work at mcdonalds"

Thats a sad commentary on how ignorant our voters are.

[MachNU]

Demand for doctors? Have you read the Doc.Fix thats in the bill? About how doctors are going to get the shit taxed out of them, how they are going to be paying alot more for there practice insurance? That means there actually going to be making less while doing more work. How long do you think that will last? Do you think others will go...I want to be a doctor, so I can make okay money and bust my ass, and be on call 24/7. Doctors, good doctors still require 8-10 years of college. What are they going to do, have a 4 year degree for doctors now?

Also answer this, why arent the Senate and House going to fall under this plan? If its so great, why do they still want to stay with there own private insurance? Did you read in the news where a "Rethuglican" tried to get a bill going, to make all the Senate and House fall under the "Public Option" heathcare? Polsei WOULD NOT allow it to even get to the floor. That alone should tell you something.

Hell what about Beacus even coming out and saying this bill is going to cost TRILLIONS?

[Total_Blender]

Every single senator and representative in Congress is at least a millionaire. I think the poorest person in Congress right now still has 2 million. SO REQUIRING THEM TO HAVE WHATEVER PLAN THEY PASS ISN'T GOING TO MEAN SHIT>>> THEY CAN AFFORD THEIR HEALTHCARE OUT OF POCKET

That whole premise is just ignorant, assinine, and a waste of Congress' time. Everyone who has the means should be able to choose their own healthcare. But there should be a better option that "die quickly and cheaply" for those of us who don't have the means to access healthcare.



Why not just get rid of all insurance all together, fuck it, why have it in the first place.

I already said I was for single payer. Leave private insurance available as an opt-out or a supplemental for those who choose to have it. I seriously doubt that will happen though, as the insurance industry has DC by the balls. If something could be done to put an end to the billions of dollars insurance companies are hemorrhaging out on political patronage (on both sides of the aisle) and PR smearing, that would probably fix a lot of our problems.

For costs to go down, someone is going to have to take a cut somewhere. Whether that is consumers sacrificing some of their legal rights to tort, whether thats insurance companies cutting back payouts, drug companies losing market share and competing with foreign suppliers, doctors having to do more with less, patients having to deal with wait times, insurance companies and drug companies giving up some of their bottom line etc etc something is going to get cut... the trick is to make the right cut that lowers costs in a way that still allows consumers affordable, quality care.

40 percent of GDP in 2020 is still lower than some of America's peers in the world. :ninja:

[81911SC]

What blows my mind is limiting a doctors salary, I can't see how you can justify limiting profits.

[zspeed24]

What blows my mind is limiting a doctors salary, I can't see how you can justify limiting profits.

because nobody should make profits according to him it should go to the people that don't want to waste their time going to school and getting jobs and owning businesses.

[bu villain]

My god...you really cant be serious can...and I truely am asking that as a question. Are you really that dumb? How is it good intentions? So your telling me that you have no problem paying for healthcare of an illegal? Someone who doesnt work, and doesnt even try to work? Also when the national debt is already just so large, you actually care for a plan thats going to cost anywhere from 1-2x the amount they say it is? A plan that your going to start paying for, but probably wont see it implemented for 4-5 years AFTER it starts?

Haha...funny how upset you are at someone who agrees with you (I don't support this bill) simply because I don't think the other side is evil.

Btw, I already pay for the healthcare of illegal immigrants right now and so do you, this bill doesn't change that. It's also amazingly ignorant to say that illegals don't even try to work. To me the whole thing about money it a moot point because I think the whole idea is unconstitutional.

[Total_Blender]

When you live in a place like this:

http://www.spraguephoto.com/stock/images/6000_6499/6249%20Slums%20Kenya%20Kibera%20slum%20Nairobi.jpg

of course you are going to look elsewhere for opportunities. Barbed wire, guns, even Lou Dobbs' pockmarks and jowls aren't going to keep you from crossing a border.

I see nothing wrong with giving illegals first aid and emergency services as its a human rights issue. Its just basic human decency to help people who are in need of emergency care. Their lives don't have any less value just because they don't have green cards. They are human beings and should be treated as such.

But Bu Villain is correct, we are paying for both illegals and the indigent care under the current system.

[Vteckidd]

When you live in a place like this:

http://www.spraguephoto.com/stock/images/6000_6499/6249%20Slums%20Kenya%20Kibera%20slum%20Nairobi.jpg

of course you are going to look elsewhere for opportunities. Barbed wire, guns, even Lou Dobbs' pockmarks and jowls aren't going to keep you from crossing a border.

I see nothing wrong with giving illegals first aid and emergency services as its a human rights issue. Its just basic human decency to help people who are in need of emergency care. Their lives don't have any less value just because they don't have green cards. They are human beings and should be treated as such.

But Bu Villain is correct, we are paying for both illegals and the indigent care under the current system.

but you cant bitch about the skyrocketing cost on one hand, then say cover everyone, EVEN ILLEGALS, on the other.

Why do you think insurance premiums go up? One of the main reasons are people that go to the emergency room and cant pay the $1000-10,000 tab. Many are illegals, many are also US Citizens.

Id rather cover citizens over illegals if i had to choose. Now we dont REFUSE care to anyone, but you have to draw the line somwehere.

But now you are opening the immigration can of worms.

I say make all of them work visas for 5 years and re-evaluate. Force them to register. If you get caught without registering you get deported no questions asked. if they are here to make a living and a better life, they should have no problem coming out of the woodwork and registering.

[Total_Blender]

[quote=Vetckkidd
I say make all of them work visas for 5 years and re-evaluate. Force them to register. If you get caught without registering you get deported no questions asked. if they are here to make a living and a better life, they should have no problem coming out of the woodwork and registering.[/quote]

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I can agree with that. These people are going to keep coming no matter how we deal with it, its best we figure out a way to work with it rather than keep using strategies that aren't working.

Politically I don't know if it would work out. The far right might see tougher visa regulations as "Big Brother government interference" or whatever. The far left would probably see it as profiling. :crazy:

As far as the costs of emergency rooms... much of that is people who don't have insurance using the emergency room like a walk in clinic. If these people were covered and could go see a regular private practice MD it would alleviate some of the issues with emergency care.

Or maybe we could just go back to the good ole days of trading chickens and pigs for medical care? :ninja: