POLL: Obama - your take now?

[Atlblkz06]

Hey guys,

Its been a while since I've posted but I need your help on this poll. I was curious how you guys feel about our president now that he has been in office for a year.

Love em?/ Hate em? Vote and tell me why. (blind poll so fess up lol)

If you care to, drop in a line on these hot topics:

* American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) - $787B "buy-in" plan
* Socialized health care bill (opt-out penalty?)
* Winning the Nobel peace prize
* Energy policiy (smart grid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid))
* Foreign Policy
* whatever else you can think of.

Also, I'm not looking for arguments, just a quick poll n go.

[Bajjani]

Hey guys,

Its been a while since I've posted but I need your help on this poll. I was curious how you guys feel about our president now that he has been in office for a year.

Love em?/ Hate em? Vote and tell me why.

If you care to, drop in a line on these hot topics:

* American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) - $787B "buy-in" plan
* Socialized health care bill (opt-out penalty?)
* Winning the Nobel peace prize
* Energy policiy (smart grid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid))
* Foreign Policy
* whatever else you can think of.

He sucks ass, I didn't like him to begin with, but I'm not debating politics again today.

[S2KJD]

hahaha agreed or least im not reading through it all again today! :D

[Hundo®]

He sucks ass, I didn't like him to begin with, but I'm not debating politics again today.


+++

and nobel peace prize? wtf is that crap. for what?! why in gods name did he win that?

can't stand him still.

[MachNU]

Come on give the man some credit....He's a born american...oh wait no he wasnt, well he did stop the war....oh wait nevermind he's asking to send more troops, well he cut spend....oh wait nevermind he's spent more in 8 months than most previous presidents did in 4 years, hell he is trying to get more bi-part....oh wait no he's not, he jumps when the dem. party say's jump, well he's trying to be more eco friend....oh wait he took Air Force one to all sorts of pointless places, spending tons of tax payers money and not really helping with polution, OH I KNOW I KNOW....he gives great speaches....oh wait nevermind he cant talk unless a teleprompter is in front of him, He did win the Nobel Peace prize.....oh wait all that was for "strengthen international diplomacy" :rolleyes:

well fuck I got nothing.... :lmao:

[IMPORTchic]

I voted McCain but for a hypocritical reason on my part really. I was not about ready to vote for Obama. Dont like him or his ideas for the most part yet believe he is doing an okay job with helping the US. His stimulus packages etc sure did pull through fast, but its not like he is the only one behind those. Without congress backing and voting them, they would have fell through as anything would. Guess that is what you get with a mostly democratic congress. The reason I feel that I am a hypocrite for voting for McCain is b/c I was okay with some of his ideas, yet I voted him b/c I KNEW Obama would win due to all of the ignorant low life ppl coming out of the woodwork just to vote for him due to his race. I was just trying to level things out as I know a good many ppl did. Obviously that backfired. haha I just think the US has got in WAYY too much economical trouble and nothing drastic is going to change right now. I dont know too much in depth about all the new hot topics to really comment, but I do feel something is going right seeing that GDP has rose like 3.4% since last quarter. That doesn't just happen coming out of a recession without someone doing work. I know that it is going to take quite some time to get unemployent/inflation/etc back to normal, but I feel that things are headed in the right direction. I do not know much about the health bill, but from what I do know, I do not agree with it. As far as the Nobel Peace Prize...WTF!! Really?!

Just my :2cents: , take it or leave it.

More I think about it. I really dont care for him, but it is what it is. He is our president. *shivers*

[MachNU]

I voted McCain but for a hypocritical reason on my part really. I was not about ready to vote for Obama. Dont like him or his ideas for the most part yet believe he is doing an okay job with helping the US. His stimulus packages etc sure did pull through fast, but its not like he is the only one behind those. Without congress backing and voting them, they would have fell through as anything would. Guess that is what you get with a mostly democratic congress. The reason I feel that I am a hypocrite for voting for McCain is b/c I was okay with some of his ideas, yet I voted him b/c I KNEW Obama would win due to all of the ignorant low life ppl coming out of the woodwork just to vote for him due to his race. I was just trying to level things out as I know a good many ppl did. Obviously that backfired. haha I just think the US has got in WAYY too much economical trouble and nothing drastic is going to change right now. I dont know too much in depth about all the new hot topics to really comment, but I do feel something is going right seeing that GDP has rose like 3.4% since last quarter. That doesn't just happen coming out of a recession without someone doing work. I know that it is going to take quite some time to get unemployent/inflation/etc back to normal, but I feel that things are headed in the right direction. I do not know much about the health bill, but from what I do know, I do not agree with it. As far as the Nobel Peace Prize...WTF!! Really?!

Just my :2cents: , take it or leave it.

More I think about it. I really dont care for him, but it is what it is. He is our president. *shivers*

You do realize that any of Obama's Stimulus plans wont really be seen or have an affect until probably late 2010 or early 2011. What you where referring to is the ones that Bush passed in 07/08. It generally takes a few years before the effect's of any stimulus plan is felt.

[Echonova]

Where the "I voted for McCain but I hated only having two choices, but I went for the lesser of two evils" choice?

[MachNU]

Where the "I voted for McCain but I hated only having two choices, but I went for the lesser of two evils" choice?

I think that fall's into "I voted for McCain, because he could have done a better job!"

[Elbow]

Voted for Obama, still like him, even more than before.

[Echonova]

You do realize that any of Obama's Stimulus plans wont really be seen or have an affect until probably late 2010 or early 2011. What you where referring to is the ones that Bush passed in 07/08. It generally takes a few years before the effect's of any stimulus plan is felt.I'm sure you realize that is because most of the money isn't slated to be spent until right before the 2010 election... Also if they passed universal health care tomorrow it won't take effect until after the Presidential election is over... Conidecdence? I think not.

[Echonova]

I think that fall's into "I voted for McCain, because he could have done a better job!"Not really, this is the way I look at it...

You are in a car heading for a brick wall.

With Obama driving you will hit the wall at 80mph
With McCain driving you will hit the wall at 55mph

Either way... you're hitting the wall. Question is how fast do you want to get there?

[MachNU]

Voted for Obama, still like him, even more than before.

Curious, but where things you voted on him for? IE what where promises/ideas from his campign that you believed in, and that he has done anything about?


I'm sure you realize that is because most of the money isn't slated to be spent until right before the 2010 election... Also if they passed universal health care tomorrow it won't take effect until after the Presidential election is over... Conidecdence? I think not.

Oh I agree. I have said it before. Everyone though Bush did a terrible job, because anything Clinton did fell over into Bush'es term's. Anything Clinton did came from Bush Sr. term...so on and so fourth. Hell thats why the Stimulus effects we saw for a brief time where due to Bush'es plans. Now where just fucked with Obama. Or at least the next preident in 2012 is FUCKED.

[Hundo®]

Not really, this is the way I look at it...

You are in a car heading for a brick wall.

With Obama driving you will hit the wall at 80mph
With McCain driving you will hit the wall at 55mph

Either way... you're hitting the wall. Question is how fast do you want to get there?

best analogy ever. and exactly why i went for mccain.

[IMPORTchic]

You do realize that any of Obama's Stimulus plans wont really be seen or have an affect until probably late 2010 or early 2011. What you where referring to is the ones that Bush passed in 07/08. It generally takes a few years before the effect's of any stimulus plan is felt.


Yes, and no. Like I said, I dont know enough to stick my nose in it too deep. I am still young and have not been involved that many years. I can only go on what I read online, and what my econ teachers have taught me past few years. They feel that he is doing the best job possible right now minus the healthcare deal. I dont know that anyone else could have done much better. The economy was already sliding previous to this from overspending and deceptive monotary policy and such. We shall just see. *crosses fingers*

I feel like this whole govt system is corrupt period. :no:

[MachNU]

Not really, this is the way I look at it...

You are in a car heading for a brick wall.

With Obama driving you will hit the wall at 80mph
With McCain driving you will hit the wall at 55mph

Either way... you're hitting the wall. Question is how fast do you want to get there?

Thats what I mean...the better is the degree in speed.

[IMPORTchic]

best analogy ever. and exactly why i went for mccain.

X's 2!!!! That is just the normal republican approach anyways. lol

[amandDA]

Come on give the man some credit....He's a born american...oh wait no he wasnt, well he did stop the war....oh wait nevermind he's asking to send more troops, well he cut spend....oh wait nevermind he's spent more in 8 months than most previous presidents did in 4 years, hell he is trying to get more bi-part....oh wait no he's not, he jumps when the dem. party say's jump, well he's trying to be more eco friend....oh wait he took Air Force one to all sorts of pointless places, spending tons of tax payers money and not really helping with polution, OH I KNOW I KNOW....he gives great speaches....oh wait nevermind he cant talk unless a teleprompter is in front of him, He did win the Nobel Peace prize.....oh wait all that was for "strengthen international diplomacy" :rolleyes:

well fuck I got nothing.... :lmao:

:lmfao: best thing ive read all day

[MachNU]

Funny Echo you should compare it to speed. Here is an interesting, and very insightful video of a guy doing the same thing, explaining it via mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc

[Echonova]

Thats what I mean...the better is the degree in speed.Better would having the choice of having a guy that would hit the fucking brakes.:tongue1:

[Hundo®]

Curious, but where things you voted on him for? IE what where promises/ideas from his campign that you believed in, and that he has done anything about?





beat me to the punch. i can't imagine someone saying they voted for obama because of the things he said he would do, and they're satisfied with him because he fulfilled those things. total rubbish. healtcare is clearly on it's way to being fulfilled unfortunately, but he has not done even a hair of what he said he would otherwise.

[Echonova]

Funny Echo you should compare it to speed. Here is an interesting, and very insightful video of a guy doing the same thing, explaining it via mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDccYea, I'm on my mobile broadband card right now... I'll watch it when I get in the hotel tonight.:goodjob:

[Bajjani]

Health care bill = sad sad day for America

[Bajjani]

Funny Echo you should compare it to speed. Here is an interesting, and very insightful video of a guy doing the same thing, explaining it via mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc


Wow...that video is cool but depressing.

[MachNU]

beat me to the punch. i can't imagine someone saying they voted for obama because of the things he said he would do, and they're satisfied with him because he fulfilled those things. total rubbish. healtcare is clearly on it's way to being fulfilled unfortunately, but he has not done even a hair of what he said he would otherwise.

Hell I think BanginJimmy put it the best way in the politics section...

"Anything a person running for office says on a campign trail is bullshit. 99% of what they say cant be done, there just saying it to get your vote. Its the smart people who can read through the lines and understand the system to know what this person is saying, that can actually happen and what cant."

Might have been in a few more or less words but the same thing.

[MachNU]

Wow...that video is cool but depressing.

Watch some of his other video's, the guy is pretty dam smart, in how he explains things.

[Bajjani]

http://www.youtube.com/user/10000Pennies#p/a/u/0/70lkobYY0Hc

I thought that one was funny.

[MachNU]

http://www.youtube.com/user/10000Pennies#p/a/u/0/70lkobYY0Hc

I thought that one was funny.

:lmao: :lmao:

Had not seen that one yet...but holy crap is that guy smart!

[Atlblkz06]

Smart maybe, I am very careful about such videos.
There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics

I'm not saying they're wrong - but I want to see the actual numbers and come to the conclusion based on fact - not some dude's interpretation.

[MachNU]

Smart maybe, I am very careful about such videos.
There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics

I'm not saying they're wrong - but I want to see the actual numbers and come to the conclusion based on fact - not some dude's interpretation.

actually his numbers are pretty dam close, if you actually go back and research them

[tony]

beat me to the punch. i can't imagine someone saying they voted for obama because of the things he said he would do, and they're satisfied with him because he fulfilled those things. total rubbish. healtcare is clearly on it's way to being fulfilled unfortunately, but he has not done even a hair of what he said he would otherwise.

I just have to wonder when some of you make comments like this do you realize that it hasn't even been a year that the man has been in office? Bush gets such a pass for 8 years but suddenly 10 months without stellar results and there should be voter's regret. I think the tragedy here is the fact that most of us are probably high school graduates but there is a lack of understanding in the span of control of the executive office. Any influence the President has wont be seen until half way into their presidency at the least. Simple legislation takes FOREVER to pass, especially anything that changes the direction in which the country is headed socially.

[Bajjani]

I just have to wonder when some of you make comments like this that it hasn't even been a year that the man has been in office? Bush gets such a pass for 8 years but suddenly 10 months without stellar results and there should be voter's regret. I think the tragedy here is the fact that most of us are probably high school graduates but there is a lack of understanding in the span of control of the executive office. Any influence the President has wont be seen until half way into their presidency at the least. Simple legislation takes FOREVER to pass, especially anything that changes the direction in which the country is headed socially.

Explain to me how the health care reform is going to help the US. Please.

[1SICKLEX]

Its clear why we (the country) are where we are reading many of these responses......

They are all politicians...if you really think one is that much better than the other, I have some beachfront property to sell you in Iowa....

I strongly suggest reading our history and not just reading from links/sources and talking to people you agree with.

[MachNU]

I just have to wonder when some of you make comments like this do you realize that it hasn't even been a year that the man has been in office? Bush gets such a pass for 8 years but suddenly 10 months without stellar results and there should be voter's regret. I think the tragedy here is the fact that most of us are probably high school graduates but there is a lack of understanding in the span of control of the executive office. Any influence the President has wont be seen until half way into their presidency at the least. Simple legislation takes FOREVER to pass, especially anything that changes the direction in which the country is headed socially.

Um....pretty sure I just posted this....


Oh I agree. I have said it before. Everyone though Bush did a terrible job, because anything Clinton did fell over into Bush'es term's. Anything Clinton did came from Bush Sr. term...so on and so fourth. Hell thats why the Stimulus effects we saw for a brief time where due to Bush'es plans. Now where just fucked with Obama. Or at least the next preident in 2012 is FUCKED.

[MachNU]

Its clear why we (the country) are where we are reading many of these responses......

They are all politicians...if you really think one is that much better than the other, I have some beachfront property to sell you in Iowa....

I strongly suggest reading our history and not just reading from links/sources and talking to people you agree with.

Judging by your responce you did not read alot of the responces to this thread.

[Echonova]

I have some beachfront property to sell you in Iowa....
PM me pics and your asking price.

[SLo_MKIII]

Doesnt really matter who was put in office no one person is gonna fix this horrible thing we call an "economy" anytime soon /thread

[1SICKLEX]

PM me pics and your asking price.

You have PM!!!


Judging by your responce you did not read alot of the responces to this thread.

We know your stance...and I am not going to "responce" to someone who can't spell the word! :D

[tony]

Um....pretty sure I just posted this....

Wasnt knocking what you said, I was agreeing.

[MachNU]

You have PM!!!



We know your stance...and I am not going to "responce" to someone who can't spell the word! :D

Bringing up spelling aye...your a registered democrat arent you? :lmfao:

[tony]

Explain to me how the health care reform is going to help the US. Please.



Get tired of answering the same question every couple of months.

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239634&highlight=BRIC

[MachNU]

Wasnt knocking what you said, I was agreeing.

I now, I was just posting saying I agree with what you said. But you cant say that so far Obama is not improving anything...or setting any plans up or courses of action that will do any good in the future, or into the next presidents term.

[1SICKLEX]

Doesnt really matter who was put in office no one person is gonna fix this horrible thing we call an "economy" anytime soon /thread

Bingo. It would require a tremendous overhaul of our system. Think REVOLUTION. The FED has fucked us for too long and needs to be abolished. The banking system has helped destroy America (Andrew Jackson WARNED US of the evils of banks, he paid them off in what 1838 and now here we are at our knees to them). People need to WAKE THE HELL UP and not just vote on party lines. Both parties are seriously malfunctioning. The politicians only care about being re-elected, they DO NOT serve the people of this country.

Obama was given the nation in its worst state in recent memory....sadly his policies and his advisers are VERY clueless. These morons thought unemployment would top at 8%.

I'm all for Heath Care for all, sounds good in theory. The FREAKING BILL is 2000 pages long. They KNOW Americans are not going to read it.

Well I have read some, it is DISGUSTING the amount of loopholes and TAXES it will add. It will crush many small businesses.

Seriously, I go to a voting booth and I cringe b/c they are mostly all unethical twits.

[Atlblkz06]

actually his numbers are pretty dam close, if you actually go back and research them

I'm not talking about just the numbers. Thats exactly my problem with it.

The video conveniently ignores the fact that we're in the worst recession since the great depression. Show me how the video accounts for this small fact! If the govt did nothing, we'd all be screwed.

[MachNU]

Bingo. It would require a tremendous overhaul of our system. Think REVOLUTION. The FED has fucked us for too long and needs to be abolished. The banking system has helped destroy America (Andrew Jackson WARNED US of the evils of banks, he paid them off in what 1838 and now here we are at our knees to them). People need to WAKE THE HELL UP and not just vote on party lines. Both parties are seriously malfunctioning. The politicians only care about being re-elected, they DO NOT serve the people of this country.

Obama was given the nation in its worst state in recent memory....sadly his policies and his advisers are VERY clueless. These morons thought unemployment would top at 8%.

I'm all for Heath Care for all, sounds good in theory. The FREAKING BILL is 2000 pages long. They KNOW Americans are not going to read it.

Well I have read some, it is DISGUSTING the amount of loopholes and TAXES it will add. It will crush many small businesses.

Seriously, I go to a voting booth and I cringe b/c they are mostly all unethical twits.

I will agree with most of that post. Like I previously said, Obama got it bad. Granted yes the prior presidents term had to deal with rough stuff, 9/11, the war, the failing economy, but by 07/08 we where steadly creeping up. Obama is taking what was already slowly, and very very surely correcting itself, fucking with it some more, and basically putting the final nail in the coffin. The only way the economy is going to fix itself its by the masses, not the government.



I'm not talking about just the numbers. Thats exactly my problem with it.

The video conveniently ignores the fact that we're in the worst recession since the great depression. Show me how the video accounts for this small fact! If the govt did nothing, we'd all be screwed.

No if you actually watch them the guy referrs to the great depression in one.

[1SICKLEX]

I'm not talking about just the numbers. Thats exactly my problem with it.

The video conveniently ignores the fact that we're in the worst recession since the great depression. Show me how the video accounts for this small fact! If the govt did nothing, we'd all be screwed.

The government did NOTHING during the past decade. There was NO REGULATION. Its like they never passed Sarbanes Oxley. The numbers DID NOT ADD UP. Anyone who tried to warn dumbass Greenspan was told STFU.

Bush AND Obama should have let Capitalism take its course. Let those greedy, unethical banks and financial institutions fall. Those that were in better shape would take advantage and the people would win.

This too big to fail is utter bullcrap. They simply privatize gains and socialize losses to the American people.

These idiots tried to have bullshit computer models trick the system. YOU CANNOT TRICK THE ECONOMY. Did they really think the economy would rise every year? They tried to prevent the bubble from bursting with dumbass low interest rates.

They let it happen b/c the elected officials sleep with big business.

[Echonova]

I don't care for party affiliation. I don't care if they are Dem, Rep or Alien. The Constitution needs to be protected and upheld. The higher-ups in government has been laying framework to circumvent it for decades. Republican and Democrat alike. Sadly too many people are willing to give up freedom for a warm blanket of "security". Now, I understand there are things the government has to do now because of advancements in technology. But they have stretched their tentacles into almost every facet of our lives. That's not the way it's supposed to be.

[1SICKLEX]

I will agree with most of that post. Like I previously said, Obama got it bad. Granted yes the prior presidents term had to deal with rough stuff, 9/11, the war, the failing economy, but by 07/08 we where steadly creeping up. Obama is taking what was already slowly, and very very surely correcting itself, fucking with it some more, and basically putting the final nail in the coffin. The only way the economy is going to fix itself its by the masses, not the government.
.

I agree. My stance is CUT TAXES. That immediately gives businesses and people money to spend or invest. If we are going to have a damn deficit, well instead of bailout out these companies, GIVE US TAX BREAKS.

The tax code is way to complicated and we pay to much. If you are wealthy and don't have an accountant, you are screwed.

[MachNU]

The government did NOTHING during the past decade. There was NO REGULATION. Its like they never passed Sarbanes Oxley. The numbers DID NOT ADD UP. Anyone who tried to warn dumbass Greenspan was told STFU.

Bush AND Obama should have let Capitalism take its course. Let those greedy, unethical banks and financial institutions fall. Those that were in better shape would take advantage and the people would win.

This too big to fail is utter bullcrap. They simply privatize gains and socialize losses to the American people.

These idiots tried to have bullshit computer models trick the system. YOU CANNOT TRICK THE ECONOMY. Did they really think the economy would rise every year? They tried to prevent the bubble from bursting with dumbass low interest rates.

They let it happen b/c the elected officials sleep with big business.

Agreed. Or the same thing as giving into Unions at most major car manufactor plant.

[§treet_§peed]

I voted for McCain because I believe he would of done a better job than Obama. Far better actually. Obama is a puppet that gets a pat on the head when he does what he is told. I still find it funny that when they were having the debates on CNN between McCain and Obama, that Obama swore withing the first six months of office he would have all troops out of Iraq. Like some of you said, he is demanding to send more. Obama is a pretty face and a good actor that's about it honestly. I don't trust him because I believe he is a snake in the grass.

[MachNU]

I agree. My stance is CUT TAXES. That immediately gives businesses and people money to spend or invest. If we are going to have a damn deficit, well instead of bailout out these companies, GIVE US TAX BREAKS.

The tax code is way to complicated and we pay to much. If you are wealthy and don't have an accountant, you are screwed.

Hell they say if they gave people money, most wont spend it they will stash it. Even that is not a bad thing. Say the government cut taxes, yes they have to make it back themselves but the cut to the people would be far greater.

People put the money they had back into the banks, to pay off debt, loans or to save. Helps the banks out which in turn pay off there private debts. Which the people they pay it to, pay it back where they owe. THe money starts spreading...

Now say even 50% of the people who got tax cuts saved the other 50% will spend still bringing up the economy. Hell yes some will spend it on foriegn made objects, but it will still help the company branch in the US. Others buy domestic cars, meaning those lots need to replace them, meaning more work for the factories up north. No matter what the money will spread out and help anyone and everyone. Jobs would get opened, and debts would get paided.

[MachNU]

I voted for McCain because I believe he would of done a better job than Obama. Far better actually. Obama is a puppet that gets a pat on the head when he does what he is told. I still find it funny that when they were having the debates on CNN between McCain and Obama, that Obama swore withing the first six months of office he would have all troops out of Iraq. Like some of you said, he is demanding to send more. Obama is a pretty face and a good actor that's about it honestly. I don't trust him because I believe he is a snake in the grass.

He's not a puppet...he is just very good at moving his head left and right reading the teleprompter.

You know they say the only way to get Obama to look you in the eyes when he is talking is to put a teleprompter right behind you.

[1SICKLEX]

Hell they say if they gave people money, most wont spend it they will stash it. Even that is not a bad thing. Say the government cut taxes, yes they have to make it back themselves but the cut to the people would be far greater.

People put the money they had back into the banks, to pay off debt, loans or to save. Helps the banks out which in turn pay off there private debts. Which the people they pay it to, pay it back where they owe. THe money starts spreading...

Now say even 50% of the people who got tax cuts saved the other 50% will spend still bringing up the economy. Hell yes some will spend it on foriegn made objects, but it will still help the company branch in the US. Others buy domestic cars, meaning those lots need to replace them, meaning more work for the factories up north. No matter what the money will spread out and help anyone and everyone. Jobs would get opened, and debts would get paided.

Yup. Tax cuts would immediately increase disposable income and the wealthy would take advantage by expanding businesses for more potential profits. Then your unemployment rate drops as
1. People are spending more, thus the need for more manufactering, etc
2. Businesses are hiring, as people are buying

This bailout crap is a disaster and clearly NOT working. It clearly was only to finance and patch up the banking system. The American people were lied to when told it would "Trickle down".

We all better PRAY that oil stays no higher than $80 a barrel. If energy costs skyrocket like in the recent past, this recession will be a decade.

[tony]

Yup. Tax cuts would immediately increase disposable income and the wealthy would take advantage by expanding businesses for more potential profits. Then your unemployment rate drops as
1. People are spending more, thus the need for more manufactering, etc
2. Businesses are hiring, as people are buying

This bailout crap is a disaster and clearly NOT working. It clearly was only to finance and patch up the banking system. The American people were lied to when told it would "Trickle down".

We all better PRAY that oil stays no higher than $80 a barrel. If energy costs skyrocket like in the recent past, this recession will be a decade.

Wasnt this what the Stimulus Act in 08 was supposed to do? Minus tax cuts for businesses the initiative was putting money in the pockets of the citizens, yet here we sit discussing the same thing.

[§treet_§peed]

He's not a puppet...he is just very good at moving his head left and right reading the teleprompter.

You know they say the only way to get Obama to look you in the eyes when he is talking is to put a teleprompter right behind you.I seriously LOL'd at this.

[S2KJD]

Come on give the man some credit....He's a born american...oh wait no he wasnt, well he did stop the war....oh wait nevermind he's asking to send more troops, well he cut spend....oh wait nevermind he's spent more in 8 months than most previous presidents did in 4 years, hell he is trying to get more bi-part....oh wait no he's not, he jumps when the dem. party say's jump, well he's trying to be more eco friend....oh wait he took Air Force one to all sorts of pointless places, spending tons of tax payers money and not really helping with polution, OH I KNOW I KNOW....he gives great speaches....oh wait nevermind he cant talk unless a teleprompter is in front of him, He did win the Nobel Peace prize.....oh wait all that was for "strengthen international diplomacy" :rolleyes:

well fuck I got nothing.... :lmao:

haha you will be +repped tomorrow when i have more to give out :lmfao:

[MachNU]

Wasnt this what the Stimulus Act in 08 was supposed to do? Minus tax cuts for businesses the initiative was putting money in the pockets of the citizens, yet here we sit discussing the same thing.

I think I would take, say a 2% tax cut across the board over the course of a year, rather than a few hundred dollars at one time, at tax season.

Hell if you do the math, say that every paycheck you had, 25% was taken in taxes...again hypothetically speaking....and the tax cut was 2% bring you down to 23% of all your checks. Over the course of a year that is a HUGE pay back. hell over the course of 5 years...its alot...

[§treet_§peed]

Eh the way I look at it is either way we go right now with the idiots leading this group into the dark future is we are fucked. I'm not talking gorilla raping a Chihuahua fucked, but something worse. The idea in fight club sounds good right about now lol. I mean of course, without the whole psycho schizophrenia thing going on.

[Atlblkz06]

The government did NOTHING during the past decade. There was NO REGULATION. Its like they never passed Sarbanes Oxley. The numbers DID NOT ADD UP. Anyone who tried to warn dumbass Greenspan was told STFU.

Bush AND Obama should have let Capitalism take its course. Let those greedy, unethical banks and financial institutions fall. Those that were in better shape would take advantage and the people would win.

This too big to fail is utter bullcrap. They simply privatize gains and socialize losses to the American people.

These idiots tried to have bullshit computer models trick the system. YOU CANNOT TRICK THE ECONOMY. Did they really think the economy would rise every year? They tried to prevent the bubble from bursting with dumbass low interest rates.

They let it happen b/c the elected officials sleep with big business.

I'm a little confused about what you're saying but - do you think a ZERO Regulation policy will work? Umm yea do you remember ENRON? People will will lie, cheat, steal - anything to get that money!

The problem is - those greedy institutions may have died - but they GOT AWAY WITH OUR DAMN MONEY! People were too stupid to see that they cant afford a 400k house with a 50k salary - I mean WTF! These institutions will come and go and drain us if they're not stopped.

The only alternative to regulation is - public education? :doh:

SOX - stuff is a ROYAL pain in the ass. I gotta deal with that crap since I'm in technical business consulting. But it opens up the books for inspection - so Enron 2.0 can be avoided. I dont know how that can be a bad thing.

Another point - if the govt let everyone weak fail - our unemployment would be twice as much - it'd cause a cyclic effect and cause our economy (which is based on consumer spending) to unravel. At that point we'd have foreign investors swooping up everything - thats the end of the US as a superpower. Actually wait thats kinda happening already.

Unrestricted capitalism is like saying : Hey do you wanna kick me in the balls?

[1SICKLEX]

Wasnt this what the Stimulus Act in 08 was supposed to do? Minus tax cuts for businesses the initiative was putting money in the pockets of the citizens, yet here we sit discussing the same thing.

Bush, Pelosi and the rats in office were complete and utter morons to think a one time $600-$1200 or so tax break would stop the problem. It goes to show how utterly distanced they are from Americans.

If you remember, gas was $3.50 at the time and that money went STRAIGHT into peoples gas tanks. It did nothing. It was a pathetic ruse.

Mach and I are talking about PERMANENT tax cuts and not just cuts for individuals.

[Maniacc]

I don't care what Obama's been saying or done - all I know is that he's one well-spoken dude.

It's a nice change.

[Hundo®]

I just have to wonder when some of you make comments like this do you realize that it hasn't even been a year that the man has been in office? Bush gets such a pass for 8 years but suddenly 10 months without stellar results and there should be voter's regret. I think the tragedy here is the fact that most of us are probably high school graduates but there is a lack of understanding in the span of control of the executive office. Any influence the President has wont be seen until half way into their presidency at the least. Simple legislation takes FOREVER to pass, especially anything that changes the direction in which the country is headed socially.


don't misconstrue my statements. I'm simply putting out there that there are those who voted for this man and say they continue to stick by him because he's done everything he said he was going to do, which is the furthest from the truth.

[tony]

I think I would take, say a 2% tax cut across the board over the course of a year, rather than a few hundred dollars at one time, at tax season.

Hell if you do the math, say that every paycheck you had, 25% was taken in taxes...again hypothetically speaking....and the tax cut was 2% bring you down to 23% of all your checks. Over the course of a year that is a HUGE pay back. hell over the course of 5 years...its alot...

And what will it go toward? My understanding of the stimulus checks is that many of the funds went toward paying off debt, not jump starting the economy. Job creation is huge, tax cuts widens the deficit and those funds have to be paid back in one way or another. Trust me, I dont like sending off my tax payment but there has to be a level head about this, we've gone the tax cut route and our national debt has grown.

[tony]

don't misconstrue my statements. I'm simply putting out there that there are those who voted for this man and say they continue to stick by him because he's done everything he said he was going to do, which is the furthest from the truth.

For those who support him, just the fact that he has made the public option viable and now likely is amazing in itself. Nobody in history has been able to do it. If you disagree with his policies of course you dont see that as an accomplishment but you asked of those who support him.

[Maniacc]

Yee-haw, y'all! Pops done told y'all OBAMA-OSAMA sporters' - now its time for me to reckon' up and pump that ass!

Woo-doggy, incest-style, penile for miles!

Chowder-headed biscit's 'n gravy, navy-blue dungaroos!

Watch my chaw done' dribble down my chin and onto your backside, negros! As I piledrive your sphancter with my PBR can sized meat-mallet!

Woo-hawww!

Truker out!


Get your hick ass outta this thread Matt lol

[Atlblkz06]

Now for some comic relief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5xVRXLgLxw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqLvBUSJucg

[1SICKLEX]

I'm a little confused about what you're saying but - do you think a ZERO Regulation policy will work? Umm yea do you remember ENRON? People will will lie, cheat, steal - anything to get that money!

The problem is - those greedy institutions may have died - but they GOT AWAY WITH OUR DAMN MONEY! People were too stupid to see that they cant afford a 400k house with a 50k salary - I mean WTF! These institutions will come and go and drain us if they're not stopped.

The only alternative to regulation is - public education? :doh:

SOX - stuff is a ROYAL pain in the ass. I gotta deal with that crap since I'm in technical business consulting. But it opens up the books for inspection - so Enron 2.0 can be avoided. I dont know how that can be a bad thing.

Another point - if the govt let everyone weak fail - our unemployment would be twice as much - it'd cause a cyclic effect and cause our economy (which is based on consumer spending) to unravel. At that point we'd have foreign investors swooping up everything - thats the end of the US as a superpower. Actually wait thats kinda happening already.

Unrestricted capitalism is like saying : Hey do you wanna kick me in the balls?

We are agreeing. :) I am saying the government by LAW was to be regulating and they did not. They didn't regulate a thing. The accountants clearly didn't notice ANYTHING "weird' going on for a decade. Even Newt Gingrich said that "Sarbanes Oxley has failed". If people truly were inspecting, then the financial crisis could have been avoided.

I agree that many people got in over their heads with homes. However they are not the main problem. Hell subprime loans were only 12% or so of the loans.

The problem was the financiers. They SUPPLIED all this money to people who didn't deserve it. Even people that had good credit bought another home not to live in but to "flip". Real estate became a joke. Everyone became a Realtor, everyone got a home.

Why? Well the biggest income for local governments is PROPERTY TAX. Did you think they were going to say "hey wait, this is fishy"??? HELL NO. They wanted more people buying home and then had the homes appraised far higher than actual worth for MORE TAX REVENUE.

All this time the financial institutions made up computer models (I can barely even understand the minimum of it) that had all this money invested in debt b/c the "computer" said it was safe.

It continued to repeat over and over.

[§treet_§peed]

Lol I'm reminded of something funny enough. America is the Titanic was. Supposedly, as it was deemed, the unsinkable ship. Isn't that how many millions love to think about America? That she is unstoppable, unsinkable, unbreakable? Well people, I do believe that we have hit our ice berg and we are slowly going down. Or if we haven't hit our ice berg we are about too. Then what happens? Well, we fall of course. Only, if we fall this hard, we will not be getting back up. Just sayin'....

[Hundo®]

Bush, Pelosi and the rats in office were complete and utter morons to think a one time $600-$1200 or so tax break would stop the problem. It goes to show how utterly distanced they are from Americans.

If you remember, gas was $3.50 at the time and that money went STRAIGHT into peoples gas tanks. It did nothing. It was a pathetic ruse.

Mach and I are talking about PERMANENT tax cuts and not just cuts for individuals.


count it. a $600-1200 tax "break" is nothing more than a slap in a face. it's a fucking hand out where one doesn't need to be. it's like a bum asking for change and you give him a penny. it did absolutely nothing for the economy and nothing to help the american people.

[§treet_§peed]

Get your hick ass outta this thread Matt lolYou actually sound like this old guy that was my neighbor years ago before he passed.

[Total_Blender]

I'm laughing at the republicans who are trying to give Bush the credit for the rise in GDP this quarter. I am sure when things do turn around it will have nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with Bush, right?

My choice for POTUS was Dennis Kucinich. After him, John Edwards. Then Hillary, then Biden, then Obama. But even though Obama was not my first choice, I still thought he was favorable over McCain, especially when he chose Sarah Palin as his running mate.

I took the serious consideration of Palin as VP to be a personal slap in the face to myself and all other academics/scholars/inetllectuals. The woman is seriously dumb, not on a folksy/populist level, but dumb as in "I can't read books" dumb.

So theres that, I was also voting againt bullshit trickle down economics and agressive foreign policy. The McCain/Palin ticket was all about escalating conflict with Russia. FUUUUUUUUCK THAT NOISE!!11!!!

As far as Obama goes, I'm indifferent to what he's done so far.

The Good:
I got some tax relief from the stimulus.

GITMO is at least not torturing people anymore. Maybe

The domestic auto industry is still hanging in there thanks to C4C and the bailouts.

Unemployment benefits were extended.

Pell Grants were raised.

I'm enjoying seeing all the self-righteous indignation from ignorant Republicans/Teabaggers/"libertarians"/Birchers/Birthers/Truthers/Deathers/gun nuts/conspiracy theorists

The Bad:

I'd really like to see more of a push for UK style single payer. Just put make medicare available to all and keep private insurance available to those who want supplemental coverage.

GITMO is still used to detain the prisoners. There are institutions in the US that could house the detainees, some in districts with unemployment pushing 20%. So the NIMBY factor is not as much of an issue as it has been before.

Speaking of GITMO, the torture there wasn't really investigated/prosecuted the way it should have been. I'd like to see Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and those at the DOJ who were in co-operation with them dragged before a war crimes tribunal.

We're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now a surge is being discussed in AFGN. We need out of both places ASAFP.

The government still holds a lot of toxic assets left over from AIG etc.

The Ugly:

I'd hate to wake up next to Michelle Bachmann... ugh...

http://static.crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2009/07/evilbachmann_1072a.jpg

or Ann Coulter

http://static.open.salon.com/files/ann-coulter-1019071229469323.jpg

[Hundo®]

For those who support him, just the fact that he has made the public option viable and now likely is amazing in itself. Nobody in history has been able to do it. If you disagree with his policies of course you dont see that as an accomplishment but you asked of those who support him.

hitler did.

im not saying that health care doesn't deserve a change, but the change he's giving it is a BAD ONE. Shoving health care down our throats is not what we need. Offering gov health care at a discounted price from regular health care would be intelligent.

(forgive me if my statement is not up to date, i haven't had the chance to keep up with all the changes it's gone through in the past 8 seconds)

[MachNU]

And what will it go toward? My understanding of the stimulus checks is that many of the funds went toward paying off debt, not jump starting the economy. Job creation is huge, tax cuts widens the deficit and those funds have to be paid back in one way or another. Trust me, I dont like sending off my tax payment but there has to be a level head about this, we've gone the tax cut route and our national debt has grown.

What are you talking about. The stimulus was a number between two numbers based on a number, for what you would get back. Like 1sicklex said that money went into peoples gas tanks.

Here is one thing you are missing. Say you owned $1500 in taxes that year. You paid the taxes you owed. 2 months later you get a check in the mail at the highest number of say $1200 back from the stimulus. So therefore you only had to pay $300 back in taxes....Here is my question. Was that money actually yours or the IRS'es?

What I am talking about is a tax % cut across the board. Give it back to me in all my pay checks from here on out. I will take it and use that % and put it into a 401k. In the course of 25 years if that number never changed...where talking a difference of dam near a million dollars in retirement funds.

[tony]

What are you talking about. The stimulus was a number between two numbers based on a number, for what you would get back. Like 1sicklex said that money went into peoples gas tanks.

Here is one thing you are missing. Say you owned $1500 in taxes that year. You paid the taxes you owed. 2 months later you get a check in the mail at the highest number of say $1200 back from the stimulus. So therefore you only had to pay $300 back in taxes....Here is my question. Was that money actually yours or the IRS'es?

What I am talking about is a tax % cut across the board. Give it back to me in all my pay checks from here on out. I will take it and use that % and put it into a 401k. In the course of 25 years if that number never changed...where talking a difference of dam near a million dollars in retirement funds.


Here is what I am saying, you pack that away into your 401k how does that help the present economy? Furthermore how is that revenue that the government has not collected to be replaced? Do you want to cut military spending? Homeland security? Maybe loosen restrictions from the FDA. Every action has a consequence, like I said Bush did the tax cuts and we ended up worse off than we were.

[tony]

So theres that, I was also voting againt bullshit trickle down economics and agressive foreign policy. The McCain/Palin ticket was all about escalating conflict with Russia. FUUUUUUUUCK THAT NOISE!!11!!!



That is a big one that I didnt even think about. The situation with Russia was starting to heat up big time and now there is a sense of calm with the subject. Sometimes its not about what someone has done, but the problems that they avoided. N. Korea is another one.

[MachNU]

As far as Obama goes, I'm indifferent to what he's done so far.

The Good:
I got some tax relief from the stimulus. *What stimulus are you talking about? The $800 billion dollar one... considered the "American Recovery" one? That one that went more into school systems, public transportation, etc? That one that people wont see for fill for another 2-3 years?

GITMO is at least not torturing people anymore. Maybe *You are out there on this one. Yay good lets give these terrorist reign in the US Judical System. Lets put them in a prison somewhere, that are already overly feeled. Use tax payers money to supply them a defense attorney, food and a cell. Yeah this was a great idea. *** Grant GITMO should have been investigated for the water boarding, but to shut it down was asinine.

The domestic auto industry is still hanging in there thanks to C4C and the bailouts. *All they did was give the money to the unions to pay someone $20 for a $10 an hour job. Wanted to help them, use the money to hire a few engineers who, make the plant more tech. advanced and use more machines to build machines. They never stop, complain, take lunch breaks, call in sick, etc.

Unemployment benefits were extended. *lol how was this good?

Pell Grants were raised. *Have you looked at the requirements to get a Pell Grant lately....its VERY hard to get one.

Are you out of your fucking mind? *bold are my remarks to those.

[§treet_§peed]

Only thing I can say about buying a home is GOD DAMN. I helped my mother buy a house because her credit is not so good as were mine is almost perfect. At the time we had save up 10k for a down payment on a 150k home. I was making good money for someone with just a high school diploma. 600-700 bucks a week depending on my over time. 600 a week being with none. But as luck would have it I got laid off after being there for slightly over a year. Saved most of the money I had made for a rainy day but that doesn't last long when you have bills constantly rolling in each week. So i got a job at a gas station to help some money of what I could keep coming in. After 7 months the whole staff except for the store manager of course was no longer needed. This gas station group does this about once a year and a half. Anyways, right now I can not find a job. It is not because I'm to proud to flip burgers if I have to, but more because there is literally nothing out here where I live. Unless of course, you have 5 or more plus years of experience and 4+ years of college. Like right now my mom is all that's working. she makes about 1200-1300 every two weeks. Barely enough to keep our heads above water. But we also suffer because we go hungry. We have nothing to eat here. Today we had to scrape up a couple of dollars for her to eat at work. But, just to say everything is not as bad as it seems is a joke. I know we don't have it near as bad as some people but still. Some people have it worse. Everything is not a perfect as the leaders of this country want everyone to think. Until people realize there has to be a solution to this problem nothing will be fixed or changed. Not a quick fix, not a panic move, none of that bullshit. Because as we are seeing now, that isn't working.

[MachNU]

Here is what I am saying, you pack that away into your 401k how does that help the present economy? Furthermore how is that revenue that the government has not collected to be replaced? Do you want to cut military spending? Homeland security? Maybe loosen restrictions from the FDA. Every action has a consequence, like I said Bush did the tax cuts and we ended up worse off than we were.

Not really. You know how the banking system works right? If I put my money into a 401k for Suntrust, and dont touch it for 5 years. Suntrust has control over that money for the next 5 years. Meaning they will use it to pay there employee's, pay off any debts they owe, open up new branches, meaning more jobs. Like I put eariler if 50% saved and 50% spent, then the money is better off than a $600-1200 check at one time, one time only.

[MachNU]

Only thing I can say about buying a home is GOD DAMN. I helped my mother buy a house because her credit is not so good as were mine is almost perfect. At the time we had save up 10k for a down payment on a 150k home. I was making good money for someone with just a high school diploma. 600-700 bucks a week depending on my over time. 600 a week being with none. But as luck would have it I got laid off after being there for slightly over a year. Saved most of the money I had made for a rainy day but that doesn't last long when you have bills constantly rolling in each week. So i got a job at a gas station to help some money of what I could keep coming in. After 7 months the whole staff except for the store manager of course was no longer needed. This gas station group does this about once a year and a half. Anyways, right now I can not find a job. It is not because I'm to proud to flip burgers if I have to, but more because there is literally nothing out here where I live. Unless of course, you have 5 or more plus years of experience and 4+ years of college. Like right now my mom is all that's working. she makes about 1200-1300 every two weeks. Barely enough to keep our heads above water. But we also suffer because we go hungry. We have nothing to eat here. Today we had to scrape up a couple of dollars for her to eat at work. But, just to say everything is not as bad as it seems is a joke. I know we don't have it near as bad as some people but still. Some people have it worse. Everything is not a perfect as the leaders of this country want everyone to think. Until people realize there has to be a solution to this problem nothing will be fixed or changed. Not a quick fix, not a panic move, none of that bullshit. Because as we are seeing now, that isn't working.

Great post! I dont mean it, on your standing right now...I am right there with you. I went from 50 hours a week at $13 down to 32 hours a week, then to no job. Trying to even find a part time job right now is hard. Fuck I would love 25-30 hours a week at $9-10 an hour.

[zspeed24]

And what will it go toward? My understanding of the stimulus checks is that many of the funds went toward paying off debt, not jump starting the economy. Job creation is huge, tax cuts widens the deficit and those funds have to be paid back in one way or another. Trust me, I dont like sending off my tax payment but there has to be a level head about this, we've gone the tax cut route and our national debt has grown.


Tax Cuts vs. Government Revenue

By Mr. Michael D. LaFaive (http://www.mackinac.org/bio.aspx?ID=4) | Nov. 1, 1997
Why does debate over the effects of income tax cuts on revenues and the budget deficit never end? Do we not have ample empirical data that demonstrates that lowered taxes produce "more" revenue, not less, by stimulating economic activity?
The answer to these questions first requires a little background information.
In each of the last three cuts in marginal tax rates, revenues received by the U.S. Treasury have increased. Coolidge cut tax rates in the 1920s, Kennedy cut marginal tax rates in the 1960s, and Reagan cut them in the 1980s.
Under Coolidge, marginal tax rates were cut from the top rate of 73% to 24%. The economy rewarded this policy by expanding 59% from 1921 to 1929. Revenues received by the federal treasury increased from $719 million in 1921 to more than $1.1 billion 1929. That's a 61% increase (there was zero inflation in this period). Growth averaged more than six percent annually. We are currently growing at 2.5%.
Under Kennedy, marginal tax rates were cut from a top rate of 91% to 70%. In real dollar terms, the economy grew by 42%, an average of 5 percent a year from 1961 to 1965. Tax revenue to the U.S. Treasury increased by 62%. Adjusted for inflation, they rose by one-third.
Under Reagan, marginal tax rates were cut from a top of 70% to 28%. Revenues (from all taxes) to the U.S. Treasury nearly doubled. According to the Budget of the U.S. Government, FY 1997, Office of Management and Budget. Revenues increased from roughly $500 billion in 1980 to $1.1 trillion in 1990.
In each case, the personal income taxes paid by "the rich" increased when their tax rates were cut. The top 10 percent of earners in the Reagan years paid 48% of the income tax burden between 1981 and 1988.
Regarding your remarks about tax hikes, there is a correlation between the Bush and Clinton tax hikes and a change in the revenue received by the Treasury. Martin Feldstien, professor of economics at Harvard, estimates that the U.S. Treasury would have collected two-thirds more revenue during the first three years of the Clinton presidency had his administration NOT raised taxes. It should be stressed, however, that the economy of the 1990s has grown moderately, in spite of tax increases, not because of them.
The reason that much of this data is ignored in debates is politics, pure politics. It pays to engage in class warfare if you are a politician because it divides voters against each other. When the perception is that only the "rich" will profit from a tax cut, such policies become difficult to sell because those labeled as "rich" tend to be in the minority.
In addition, politicians have a stake in keeping the tax code complex because it allows them to extract campaign donations and favors from people and corporations who derive huge benefits from special tax laws and exemptions in return.





This has been proven over and over again in our economy.

[Hundo®]

Tax Cuts vs. Government Revenue

By Mr. Michael D. LaFaive (http://www.mackinac.org/bio.aspx?ID=4) | Nov. 1, 1997
Why does debate over the effects of income tax cuts on revenues and the budget deficit never end? Do we not have ample empirical data that demonstrates that lowered taxes produce "more" revenue, not less, by stimulating economic activity?
The answer to these questions first requires a little background information.
In each of the last three cuts in marginal tax rates, revenues received by the U.S. Treasury have increased. Coolidge cut tax rates in the 1920s, Kennedy cut marginal tax rates in the 1960s, and Reagan cut them in the 1980s.
Under Coolidge, marginal tax rates were cut from the top rate of 73% to 24%. The economy rewarded this policy by expanding 59% from 1921 to 1929. Revenues received by the federal treasury increased from $719 million in 1921 to more than $1.1 billion 1929. That's a 61% increase (there was zero inflation in this period). Growth averaged more than six percent annually. We are currently growing at 2.5%.
Under Kennedy, marginal tax rates were cut from a top rate of 91% to 70%. In real dollar terms, the economy grew by 42%, an average of 5 percent a year from 1961 to 1965. Tax revenue to the U.S. Treasury increased by 62%. Adjusted for inflation, they rose by one-third.
Under Reagan, marginal tax rates were cut from a top of 70% to 28%. Revenues (from all taxes) to the U.S. Treasury nearly doubled. According to the Budget of the U.S. Government, FY 1997, Office of Management and Budget. Revenues increased from roughly $500 billion in 1980 to $1.1 trillion in 1990.
In each case, the personal income taxes paid by "the rich" increased when their tax rates were cut. The top 10 percent of earners in the Reagan years paid 48% of the income tax burden between 1981 and 1988.
Regarding your remarks about tax hikes, there is a correlation between the Bush and Clinton tax hikes and a change in the revenue received by the Treasury. Martin Feldstien, professor of economics at Harvard, estimates that the U.S. Treasury would have collected two-thirds more revenue during the first three years of the Clinton presidency had his administration NOT raised taxes. It should be stressed, however, that the economy of the 1990s has grown moderately, in spite of tax increases, not because of them.
The reason that much of this data is ignored in debates is politics, pure politics. It pays to engage in class warfare if you are a politician because it divides voters against each other. When the perception is that only the "rich" will profit from a tax cut, such policies become difficult to sell because those labeled as "rich" tend to be in the minority.
In addition, politicians have a stake in keeping the tax code complex because it allows them to extract campaign donations and favors from people and corporations who derive huge benefits from special tax laws and exemptions in return.





This has been proven over and over again in our economy.



i applaud you, and would rep if i could. out for 24.

[Total_Blender]

. Offering gov health care at a discounted price from regular health care would be intelligent.

What exactly do you think the Dems are trying to do? Because it seems to me like the so-called "public option" is just that... a discounted insurance plan for those who can't afford private insurance. Since you seem to be in favor of that, why knock it?

As far as healthcare being "forced down your throat", I assume you mean single payer, but even in that event private insurance would still be around to cover gaps not covered by a government plan. Pretty much everywhere that has single payer also has private supplemental plans.

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healthinsurance/private-medical-insurance/insurance-getaquote/

[§treet_§peed]

Great post! I dont mean it, on your standing right now...I am right there with you. I went from 50 hours a week at $13 down to 32 hours a week, then to no job. Trying to even find a part time job right now is hard. Fuck I would love 25-30 hours a week at $9-10 an hour.Thanks man, like you said tho. I would not mind something like that either. Hell going from $13.75/hr to $8/hr was hard enough but still supplied me with some money to get things took care of. The first job I was talking about paid me more money per week through unemployment than the other job I picked up. But unemployment doesn't last forever and sometime you can't be to proud to take what you can get to keep some money coming in. Like tomorrow I have an interview at the Wrigley gum plant up here. I was told I might only be able to get 9.75 or 10.00 per hour starting off. I told them that would be fine with me.

[§treet_§peed]

I still say the movie Fight Club had some good ideas.. :D

[Hundo®]

What exactly do you think the Dems are trying to do? Because it seems to me like the so-called "public option" is just that... a discounted insurance plan for those who can't afford private insurance. Since you seem to be in favor of that, why knock it?

As far as healthcare being "forced down your throat", I assume you mean single payer, but even in that event private insurance would still be around to cover gaps not covered by a government plan. Pretty much everywhere that has single payer also has private supplemental plans.

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healthinsurance/private-medical-insurance/insurance-getaquote/


I personally think there is no NEED to change our health care. but if it were going to change, i think that's the only viable option. In it's inception it was to FORCE it upon everyone, with no choice, you just pay it as part of your taxes. Everyone MUST HAVE health care.

Barack Obama doesn’t have a health care plan. I mean, maybe he has some glorious pet plan he’s been perfecting in his basement that will lower costs, cover everybody, and provide competitive advantages to the Chicago White Sox. But we’re not getting that plan.

We’re getting whatever makes it through Congress’s digestive track. Congress is like a beast that feeds on ideas, keeps whichever parts will make it fatter, and turns the rest into poop.

At the moment, Congress has not finished this aromatic process. There are several variations on plans kicking around Washington, and Democrats have spent most of the summer bickering about them. Yet we constantly hear reporters, talking heads, Republicans and crazy street preachers refer to “the Obama health care plan.”

[Bajjani]

Someone
cliff notes from page 3 to now

[§treet_§peed]

O and btw about the statement saying:

1. With Obama we hit the wall at 85 mph.
2. With McCain we hit the wall at 55 mph.



We when I was 17, I was running about 70-75 ish on a 35 Mph road in the rain. Hydroplaned in a curve and slammed into a bank head on flipped and hit a power pole in the air. Anyway, the point being. I wish I would of hit the bank, which was my wall, a little slower.

[Bajjani]

I just want someone to explain to me using facts how the 1.2 trillion healthcare bill will help us. Tony I won't lie, I'm not reading that whole fucking thread to find your one answer.

[Hundo®]

I wish I would of hit the bank, which was my wall, a little slower.


i think that's a pretty obvious fucking statement there matt.

[tony]

I'm amazed that the article you quoted even used Reagan to validate their point, its well known how much the National Debt grew under Reagan yet the article states that revenues increased.

No doubt there is a sweet spot where taxation is too excessive and a point where it is too lax. The tax cuts under Bush, the rising deficit and expansion of government tells me that the tax rate at that time was too lax. Can't justify it when it contributed to the problem we are currently in.

[§treet_§peed]

i think that's a pretty obvious fucking statement there matt.Well you know how some people on here are. Some you can tell them the answer in a question and they still scratch their heads.

[tony]

I just want someone to explain to me using facts how the 1.2 trillion healthcare bill will help us. Tony I won't lie, I'm not reading that whole fucking thread to find your one answer.

And herein lies part of the problem we have today in society and thank you for your honesty. Rather than take the time and understand people want the answer to be given to them. You have some strong opinions to not have taken the time to see the other side of the argument.

[Hundo®]

Well you know how some people on here are. Some you can tell them the answer in a question and they still scratch their heads.

yea but the way echonova put it, you'd have to be in the womb to not get it.

[zspeed24]

I'm amazed that the article you quoted even used Reagan to validate their point, its well known how much the National Debt grew under Reagan yet the article states that revenues increased.

No doubt there is a sweet spot where taxation is too excessive and a point where it is too lax. The tax cuts under Bush, the rising deficit and expansion of government tells me that the tax rate at that time was too lax. Can't justify it when it contributed to the problem we are currently in.

Ronald Reagan increased the deficit by 35 percent in eight years, whereas Barack Obama has increased the deficit by 450 percent in eight weeks. Reagan created an extra $37 billion in annual deficit. Obama has already created an extra $1.4 trillion in annual deficit.

[Hundo®]

And herein lies part of the problem we have today in society and thank you for your honesty. Rather than take the time and understand people want the answer to be given to them. You have some strong opinions to not have taken the time to see the other side of the argument.


that's a stupid thing to say tony. That's like obama showing up to a debate and then when asked for a rebuttal he says "refer to my dissertation, in which i have answered all of these questions."

[MachNU]

Ronald Reagan increased the deficit by 35 percent in eight years, whereas Barack Obama has increased the deficit by 450 percent in eight weeks. Reagan created an extra $37 billion in annual deficit. Obama has already created an extra $1.4 trillion in annual deficit.

IE basically saying $.01 out of $100

[tony]

Ronald Reagan increased the deficit by 35 percent in eight years, whereas Barack Obama has increased the deficit by 450 percent in eight weeks. Reagan created an extra $37 billion in annual deficit. Obama has already created an extra $1.4 trillion in annual deficit.

lol I know I've posted on this before, so I'll brb with what i posted.

[Total_Blender]

Are you out of your fucking mind? *bold are my remarks to those.

The only one of these I will even dignify with a comment is:


You are out there on this one. Yay good lets give these terrorist reign in the US Judical System. Lets put them in a prison somewhere, that are already overly feeled. Use tax payers money to supply them a defense attorney, food and a cell. Yeah this was a great idea. *** Grant GITMO should have been investigated for the water boarding, but to shut it down was asinine.

Many of the people in Gitmo are innocent of any wrongdoing. In the early days of the 'War on Terror' there was a standing bounty placed on people with a "connection to terrorism".

The REAL terrorists would round up foreign nationals in AFGN, Pakistan, etc and turn them in for the bounty. Most of these people were tourists. Say you happen to be a German citizen of Turkish ethnicity on vacation and you walk down the wrong alley in Peshawar... you get rounded up by an armed gang, they take your passport and documentation, turn you in for a bounty, and then you have to explain to hostile Americans what your doing in a foreign country with no documentation. And you have to explain this to them through a language barrier, while you're being beaten and waterboarded.

This is exactly what happened to Murat Kurnaz and many other GITMO detainees.

[Hundo®]

i think tony put me on ignore because i kept pummeling his statements? :(

[§treet_§peed]

yea but the way echonova put it, you'd have to be in the womb to not get it.Shit I wish I was still in the damn womb. All nice and cozy. Don't have to do shit lol.

[§treet_§peed]

The big almighty savior Obama that was supposed to deliver us from all bad things as some have said, has done absolutely jack shit for me. Including his waste of billions.

[MachNU]

The only one of these I will even dignify with a comment is:


Many of the people in Gitmo are innocent of any wrongdoing. In the early days of the 'War on Terror' there was a standing bounty placed on people with a "connection to terrorism".

The REAL terrorists would round up foreign nationals in AFGN, Pakistan, etc and turn them in for the bounty. Most of these people were tourists. Say you happen to be a German citizen of Turkish ethnicity on vacation and you walk down the wrong alley in Peshawar... you get rounded up by an armed gang, they take your passport and documentation, turn you in for a bounty, and then you have to explain to hostile Americans what your doing in a foreign country with no documentation. And you have to explain this to them through a language barrier, while you're being beaten and waterboarded.

This is exactly what happened to Murat Kurnaz and many other GITMO detainees.

Why dont you reply to the others if there so blantely wrong? Because there not. On the one you did...

Thats a far one to strive for. Most of those people had CONNECTIONS to terrorism. I mean shit what do you think being a coconspiritor to something is? You knew a act was going to kill people, even if you had nothing more to do than driving the person to there location...your STILL GUILITY! Most of those people had knowledge of people they where after.

Basically saying, your friend comes up to you says he's going to kill someone his whole plan, follows through with the act, you never tell someone about whats going to happen. It comes back to you, you go to jail. Your telling me your innocent of any wrong doing?

[tony]

As far as the deficit goes, notice a pattern here? Unmistakenable pattern.. I do find it funny that a post from a year ago is relevant to a discussion we're having today.. proof that the same issues get brought up over and over with no objective resolve in the conversation, just repititous information.



Since the 1960s, deficits driven largely by increased levels of spending have been the norm, while surpluses were an exception. The current 2008 deficit projection — 2.9 percent of GDP — is slightly above the 45-year historical average of 2.8 percent of GDP.

Average Federal Deficit as a Percentage of GDP, by Administration
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/BudgetChartBook/images/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-C3-All-Recent-Administrations-Ran-Up.gif

This is info from the Heritage Foundation, a conservative group.


Federal Spending Has Increased Steadily Regardless of Congressional Leadership

Real annual federal spending has more than tripled since 1965 and has nearly doubled since 1980.

Total Federal Spending, in Billions,1965–2008
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/BudgetChartBook/images/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-S1-Federal-Spending-Has-Increased.gif


Now.. with those figures I have to concede the point on Federal Spending with Obama.. it is astronomically high for a fiscal year budget. No excuses, no passes.

[MachNU]

Also I am amazed that no one has brought up Obama going to congress over trying to raise the national debt ceiling?

[Bajjani]

Tony, I think you're missing my point. The healthcare will do nothing good, and I've yet to hear one thing it does that IS good.

[zspeed24]

The deficit that Reagan had was not due to the tax cuts that he pushed. It was due to defense spending, social programs, and the true worst recession since the Great Depression.

[Hundo®]

The deficit that Reagan had was not due to the tax cuts that he pushed. It was due to defense spending, social programs, and the true worst recession since the Great Depression.


he doesn't see that. he only see's the information IN FRONT OF HIM. he refuses to dig deeper to see what the actual cause for the deficit was. tony is a surface dweller. he refuses to do any investigation other than what the democratic media will post for him to use as fuel.

[tony]

Tony, I think you're missing my point. The healthcare will do nothing good, and I've yet to hear one thing it does that IS good.

How about researching the subject before forming an opinion? The problem is you're waiting to hear something instead of seeking the information yourself. I state this because I was a strong opponent of Universal Healthcare, hated the idea and I had the same arguments a lot of you had. Then I started researching, I talked to people who live in a system where there is Universal coverage and it changed my outlook on the subject. I never would have changed had I not sought the information and expected someone to come to me with it.

[tony]

he doesn't see that. he only see's the information IN FRONT OF HIM. he refuses to dig deeper to see what the actual cause for the deficit was. tony is a surface dweller. he refuses to do any investigation other than what the democratic media will post for him to use as fuel.

Really? Because I understand that much of Reagan's deficit was due to his military spending, it is how he handled the cold war with Russia, his race to compete militarily and obviously it bankrupted the U.S.S.R, but I guess that is all common knowledge right? :rolleyes:

That is all well and good but when you supplement that spending with tax cuts fundamentally the debt will rise. lol I don't even read liberal media, its as annoying as watching Faux news.. I read actual text.

[Total_Blender]

I have no problems with the spending as long as its going into schools, healthcare, roads and bridges, etc etc. Projects that keep people working and keep money circulating. Keynesian economics.

What I do have a problem with is spending money on such a gigantic defense budget. Defense is at 21.6% (DOD + war on terror) while health and social services is 2.30% and education is at 7.32%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2009spendingbycategory2.png

If you add up the defense spending of the entire world, the US is paying HALF.

[Bajjani]

How about researching the subject before forming an opinion? The problem is you're waiting to hear something instead of seeking the information yourself. I state this because I was a strong opponent of Universal Healthcare, hated the idea and I had the same arguments a lot of you had. Then I started researching, I talked to people who live in a system where there is Universal coverage and it changed my outlook on the subject. I never would have changed had I not sought the information and expected someone to come to me with it.

Wrong sir. Not on the subject thats an opinion, but I have done research, I've talked to a lot of small business owners, I own a business, I know what it costs me, I have family in Canada, in Europe, I know what the healthcare system is like there, its awful, good luck waiting to see a doctor. Agree to disagree but I still see no benefit to the country as a whole by doing this, mostly because I feel there is none. Maybe you're smarter than me or maybe you have different beliefs on what is good for the country, who knows, I still think it is shit.

[zspeed24]

Wrong sir. Not on the subject thats an opinion, but I have done research, I've talked to a lot of small business owners, I own a business, I know what it costs me, I have family in Canada, in Europe, I know what the healthcare system is like there, its awful, good luck waiting to see a doctor.

TRUTH

[Hundo®]

Really? Because I understand that much of Reagan's deficit was due to his military spending, it is how he handled the cold war with Russia, his race to compete militarily and obviously it bankrupted the U.S.S.R, but I guess that is all common knowledge right? :rolleyes:



ACTUALLY IT IS! It's learned upon us regular folk in scewl sistum, ya kno?

to add, i noticed the minute you had a rebuttal to something you dug up the previous post you made to prove your point (back to over a year ago!). But when bajjani asks you what possible positive this socialized health care could provide us, you tell him to "refer to your thread". Knowing full well he will not read pages upon pages trying to find where (if you even did) post what benefits proceed us. So please, enlighten us regular folk tony.

[1SICKLEX]

Tax Cuts vs. Government Revenue

By Mr. Michael D. LaFaive (http://www.mackinac.org/bio.aspx?ID=4) | Nov. 1, 1997
Why does debate over the effects of income tax cuts on revenues and the budget deficit never end? Do we not have ample empirical data that demonstrates that lowered taxes produce "more" revenue, not less, by stimulating economic activity?
The answer to these questions first requires a little background information.
In each of the last three cuts in marginal tax rates, revenues received by the U.S. Treasury have increased. Coolidge cut tax rates in the 1920s, Kennedy cut marginal tax rates in the 1960s, and Reagan cut them in the 1980s.
Under Coolidge, marginal tax rates were cut from the top rate of 73% to 24%. The economy rewarded this policy by expanding 59% from 1921 to 1929. Revenues received by the federal treasury increased from $719 million in 1921 to more than $1.1 billion 1929. That's a 61% increase (there was zero inflation in this period). Growth averaged more than six percent annually. We are currently growing at 2.5%.
Under Kennedy, marginal tax rates were cut from a top rate of 91% to 70%. In real dollar terms, the economy grew by 42%, an average of 5 percent a year from 1961 to 1965. Tax revenue to the U.S. Treasury increased by 62%. Adjusted for inflation, they rose by one-third.
Under Reagan, marginal tax rates were cut from a top of 70% to 28%. Revenues (from all taxes) to the U.S. Treasury nearly doubled. According to the Budget of the U.S. Government, FY 1997, Office of Management and Budget. Revenues increased from roughly $500 billion in 1980 to $1.1 trillion in 1990.
In each case, the personal income taxes paid by "the rich" increased when their tax rates were cut. The top 10 percent of earners in the Reagan years paid 48% of the income tax burden between 1981 and 1988.
Regarding your remarks about tax hikes, there is a correlation between the Bush and Clinton tax hikes and a change in the revenue received by the Treasury. Martin Feldstien, professor of economics at Harvard, estimates that the U.S. Treasury would have collected two-thirds more revenue during the first three years of the Clinton presidency had his administration NOT raised taxes. It should be stressed, however, that the economy of the 1990s has grown moderately, in spite of tax increases, not because of them.
The reason that much of this data is ignored in debates is politics, pure politics. It pays to engage in class warfare if you are a politician because it divides voters against each other. When the perception is that only the "rich" will profit from a tax cut, such policies become difficult to sell because those labeled as "rich" tend to be in the minority.
In addition, politicians have a stake in keeping the tax code complex because it allows them to extract campaign donations and favors from people and corporations who derive huge benefits from special tax laws and exemptions in return.





This has been proven over and over again in our economy.

Repped

[1SICKLEX]

As far as the deficit goes, notice a pattern here? Unmistakenable pattern.. I do find it funny that a post from a year ago is relevant to a discussion we're having today.. proof that the same issues get brought up over and over with no objective resolve in the conversation, just repititous information.



Now.. with those figures I have to concede the point on Federal Spending with Obama.. it is astronomically high for a fiscal year budget. No excuses, no passes.

Very good post and another topic at hand, fiscal responsibility. However again, to get out the recession, we need to cut taxes, not bailout banks.

Clinton didn't do it by himself, the Republican led Newt Congress got it passed as well. I wish we could get those guys back in office.

[tony]

ACTUALLY IT IS! It's learned upon us regular folk in scewl sistum, ya kno?

to add, i noticed the minute you had a rebuttal to something you dug up the previous post you made to prove your point (back to over a year ago!). But when bajjani asks you what possible positive this socialized health care could provide us, you tell him to "refer to your thread". Knowing full well he will not read pages upon pages trying to find where (if you even did) post what benefits proceed us. So please, enlighten us regular folk tony.

3 pages is pages upon pages? Find it yourselves, I get tired of posting the same thing over and over. Even in that thread I believe I was quoting myself from before. I'd probably do it if I knew the intent was to be objective rather than rebut whatever is posted.. I already wasted my time on that argument.

[Hundo®]

3 pages is pages upon pages? Find it yourselves, I get tired of posting the same thing over and over. Even in that thread I believe I was quoting myself from before. I'd probably do it if I knew the intent was to be objective rather than rebut whatever is posted.. I already wasted my time on that argument.

i didn't click your link either, because you already proved if you had a point, you'd post it. telling someone to find your point is another way of saying "i don't remember if i actually had one, but if i did, it'd be in there somewhere."

[tony]

Very good post and another topic at hand, fiscal responsibility. However again, to get out the recession, we need to cut taxes, not bailout banks.

Clinton didn't do it by himself, the Republican led Newt Congress got it passed as well. I wish we could get those guys back in office.

Repubs didn't come in till 96, Clinton's second term. Actually Clinton can thank H.W Bush, remember "Read my lips, no new taxes." Then he raised taxes? Yeah, that was the reason he didnt get reelected but the increase catapulted the economy..

[Bajjani]

The bolded are quotes from tony from his other thread, incase anyone was wondering.

From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.

Well, this is 100% backwards. The tax alone on one of the companies that I own will be approximately 5% of gross REVENUE. That is really about 15% of Gross Profit. And it ends up after overhead being approximately 33% of net profit in a year like 2008. You know one of the easiest ways to cut costs? Layoffs. Hello unemployment (thats already happening). It won't inspire companies to do more R&D, they have to show that as expense in the year it occurs. If the Gov't wanted to inspire R&D they could go back to allowing depreciation over the course the R&D generates revenue. It won't inspire new businesses because the cost of opening a new business goes up DRAMATICALLY. Failed point.


A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.

Call me unsympathetic, call me an ass, maybe that person making minimum wage should go read a fucking book, learn a trade, and get out of the fucking ghetto. I know plenty of high school dropouts that make 10-25 an hour with 1.5 OT and bring home 70k a year, hell a truck driver brings more than 6.50. It is to bad that people aren't hiring because they are doing this new healthcare bill that increases costs to companies. Man, that sucks.

What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.

Brazil has a lot more exports. Russia has a growing stock market. China has cheap labor and more exports, and India has cheap labor. Do you want to know why they are growing? Because everyone is buying their shit, it has nothing to do with healthcare. Just saying.

I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.

Not everyone has an extra hour or two, or a month. My cousin's husband had an eye infection, they gave him eye drops, he really had a detached retina and because they had a nurse (not a dr) diagnose him, the nurse didn't know the symptoms, they pushed him away, hes not 100% blind in that eye. This was in your socialist healthcare economy. Call me fuckin stupid but I'd rather pay for my own healthcare and get proper treatment.

I only read some of your posts and even then I browsed thru them, I don't feel like reading all the bitching back in forth in the old thread.


Someone said it in your old thread as well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

If the bill passes, companys will increase costs and decrease work force, outsource what they can for cheaper services (to india for example), unemployment goes up, prices of our goods go up unless they manage to cut enough costs, consumers end up having to pay higher prices, and who gets fucked inthe end.

[Hundo®]

The bolded are quotes from tony from his other thread, incase anyone was wondering.

From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.

Well, this is 100% backwards. The tax alone on one of the companies that I own will be approximately 5% of gross REVENUE. That is really about 15% of Gross Profit. And it ends up after overhead being approximately 33% of net profit in a year like 2008. You know one of the easiest ways to cut costs? Layoffs. Hello unemployment (thats already happening). It won't inspire companies to do more R&D, they have to show that as expense in the year it occurs. If the Gov't wanted to inspire R&D they could go back to allowing depreciation over the course the R&D generates revenue. It won't inspire new businesses because the cost of opening a new business goes up DRAMATICALLY. Failed point.


A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.

Call me unsympathetic, call me an ass, maybe that person making minimum wage should go read a fucking book, learn a trade, and get out of the fucking ghetto. I know plenty of high school dropouts that make 10-25 an hour with 1.5 OT and bring home 70k a year, hell a truck driver brings more than 6.50. It is to bad that people aren't hiring because they are doing this new healthcare bill that increases costs to companies. Man, that sucks.

What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.

Brazil has a lot more exports. Russia has a growing stock market. China has cheap labor and more exports, and India has cheap labor. Do you want to know why they are growing? Because everyone is buying their shit, it has nothing to do with healthcare. Just saying.

I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.

Not everyone has an extra hour or two, or a month. My cousin's husband had an eye infection, they gave him eye drops, he really had a detached retina and because they had a nurse (not a dr) diagnose him, the nurse didn't know the symptoms, they pushed him away, hes not 100% blind in that eye. This was in your socialist healthcare economy. Call me fuckin stupid but I'd rather pay for my own healthcare and get proper treatment.

I only read some of your posts and even then I browsed thru them, I don't feel like reading all the bitching back in forth in the old thread.


Someone said it in your old thread as well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

If the bill passes, companys will increase costs and decrease work force, outsource what they can for cheaper services (to india for example), unemployment goes up, prices of our goods go up unless they manage to cut enough costs, consumers end up having to pay higher prices, and who gets fucked inthe end.

/thread

[MachNU]

/thread

x2

[Total_Blender]

Basically the gist of your post was that universal coverage healthcare reduces profit margins.

But what about the increased productivity from a healthy and more capable workforce? Also, under a single-payer plan you'll be spending more in taxes, but nothing essentially nothing on private insurance so it would balance out.

All the talk of wait times, rationing etc is just right wing propaganda. Healthcare is an area where everyone will have something to bitch about, no matter how good it is there will always be room for improvement.

As far as the "underemployed" I really do think they deserve healthcare. Sure they might need to seek better opportunities, but there will always be people filling those roles. When Johnny Frycook gets promoted to Shift Leader they're going to hire someone else to make fries. There will always be management and there will always be fry cooks, and it kind of takes the dignity out of honest work when you say that those who work lower wage jobs deserve to be punished.

[Bajjani]

Basically the gist of your post was that universal coverage healthcare reduces profit margins.

But what about the increased productivity from a healthy and more capable workforce? Also, under a single-payer plan you'll be spending more in taxes, but nothing essentially nothing on private insurance so it would balance out.

All the talk of wait times, rationing etc is just right wing propaganda. Healthcare is an area where everyone will have something to bitch about, no matter how good it is there will always be room for improvement.

As far as the "underemployed" I really do think they deserve healthcare. Sure they might need to seek better opportunities, but there will always be people filling those roles. When Johnny Frycook gets promoted to Shift Leader they're going to hire someone else to make fries. There will always be management and there will always be fry cooks, and it kind of takes the dignity out of honest work when you say that those who work lower wage jobs deserve to be punished.

Some jobs are meant for kids inhigh school to earn an extra buck
No, costs won't balance out. You'd pay less for privatized insurance than you would for the new reform plan.

Reduced profit margins for companies means increased costs to consumer. Heard of the law of unintended consequences? Shits reaaaaaaaaal.

[tony]

The bolded are quotes from tony from his other thread, incase anyone was wondering.

From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.

Well, this is 100% backwards. The tax alone on one of the companies that I own will be approximately 5% of gross REVENUE. That is really about 15% of Gross Profit. And it ends up after overhead being approximately 33% of net profit in a year like 2008. You know one of the easiest ways to cut costs? Layoffs. Hello unemployment (thats already happening). It won't inspire companies to do more R&D, they have to show that as expense in the year it occurs. If the Gov't wanted to inspire R&D they could go back to allowing depreciation over the course the R&D generates revenue. It won't inspire new businesses because the cost of opening a new business goes up DRAMATICALLY. Failed point.


A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.

Call me unsympathetic, call me an ass, maybe that person making minimum wage should go read a fucking book, learn a trade, and get out of the fucking ghetto. I know plenty of high school dropouts that make 10-25 an hour with 1.5 OT and bring home 70k a year, hell a truck driver brings more than 6.50. It is to bad that people aren't hiring because they are doing this new healthcare bill that increases costs to companies. Man, that sucks.

What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.

Brazil has a lot more exports. Russia has a growing stock market. China has cheap labor and more exports, and India has cheap labor. Do you want to know why they are growing? Because everyone is buying their shit, it has nothing to do with healthcare. Just saying.

I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.

Not everyone has an extra hour or two, or a month. My cousin's husband had an eye infection, they gave him eye drops, he really had a detached retina and because they had a nurse (not a dr) diagnose him, the nurse didn't know the symptoms, they pushed him away, hes not 100% blind in that eye. This was in your socialist healthcare economy. Call me fuckin stupid but I'd rather pay for my own healthcare and get proper treatment.

I only read some of your posts and even then I browsed thru them, I don't feel like reading all the bitching back in forth in the old thread.


Someone said it in your old thread as well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

If the bill passes, companys will increase costs and decrease work force, outsource what they can for cheaper services (to india for example), unemployment goes up, prices of our goods go up unless they manage to cut enough costs, consumers end up having to pay higher prices, and who gets fucked inthe end.

And as I said to the other person, its a simple difference of ideology, nothing more. Neither of us can say what will or wont happen, only time will tell and the legislation is moving. Reps for the reply though.

[Atlblkz06]

The bolded are quotes from tony from his other thread, incase anyone was wondering.

From the Economic standpoint, imagine how much more entrepreneurship and innovation we would have when people don't have to worry about health care when they venture out on their own and start their business. Furthermore a lot of you get it F'd up when it comes to a universal plan, its not like nobody pays anything.. there is still a premium to pay but it is substantially less than the $200-$2000 a month premiums you see now.

Well, this is 100% backwards. The tax alone on one of the companies that I own will be approximately 5% of gross REVENUE. That is really about 15% of Gross Profit. And it ends up after overhead being approximately 33% of net profit in a year like 2008. You know one of the easiest ways to cut costs? Layoffs. Hello unemployment (thats already happening). It won't inspire companies to do more R&D, they have to show that as expense in the year it occurs. If the Gov't wanted to inspire R&D they could go back to allowing depreciation over the course the R&D generates revenue. It won't inspire new businesses because the cost of opening a new business goes up DRAMATICALLY. Failed point.


A universal system does nothing but reduce the cost of healthcare so it is easily affordable and obtainable for persons like me who can afford coverage and those making $6.50 an hour who cannot. It also takes away the notion that life decisions our decided on a cost basis and not a need basis. For every story I hear about someone in another country WAITING for something I can give you another story of someone REJECTED because they did not have adequate insurance or the procedure was not cost effective.

Call me unsympathetic, call me an ass, maybe that person making minimum wage should go read a fucking book, learn a trade, and get out of the fucking ghetto. I know plenty of high school dropouts that make 10-25 an hour with 1.5 OT and bring home 70k a year, hell a truck driver brings more than 6.50. It is to bad that people aren't hiring because they are doing this new healthcare bill that increases costs to companies. Man, that sucks.

What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system. I don't see how some of you can think it has this great negative impact but can't fathom the idea that it has a great impact in another way as well.

Brazil has a lot more exports. Russia has a growing stock market. China has cheap labor and more exports, and India has cheap labor. Do you want to know why they are growing? Because everyone is buying their shit, it has nothing to do with healthcare. Just saying.

I'll gladly wait an extra hour or two..even a month I don't care if it means that the person that is building the roads I drive on, the individual who makes my sandwich at Subway.. the teacher who teaches my child in school can all get the healthcare they require because currently a lot of them cannot.

Not everyone has an extra hour or two, or a month. My cousin's husband had an eye infection, they gave him eye drops, he really had a detached retina and because they had a nurse (not a dr) diagnose him, the nurse didn't know the symptoms, they pushed him away, hes not 100% blind in that eye. This was in your socialist healthcare economy. Call me fuckin stupid but I'd rather pay for my own healthcare and get proper treatment.

I only read some of your posts and even then I browsed thru them, I don't feel like reading all the bitching back in forth in the old thread.


Someone said it in your old thread as well, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."

If the bill passes, companys will increase costs and decrease work force, outsource what they can for cheaper services (to india for example), unemployment goes up, prices of our goods go up unless they manage to cut enough costs, consumers end up having to pay higher prices, and who gets fucked inthe end.

Thank you sir.

Another point - I spend money and time to go to fuckin gym. Why should I pay for the beer drinkin lard ass making $9/hr next door to get $100k surgery when it's HIS FAULT!

Yes there is a counterpoint to this but you see what I'm talkin about

If you want to everyone to get healthy - subsidize things that POSITIVELY REINFORCE healthy habits - like how about having a federally funded and subsidized gym? Its a LOT cheaper than paying for heart surgeries and in the long run it'll be cheaper - and more people will live!


"What else does Brazil and Russia, China and India have in common that would cause them all to be emerging economically? Its far from a coincidence that ALL four... 100% of them have a Universal Healthcare system"

ROFLMAO! If you're poor and sick, you DO NOT want to be in India. Trust me on that one. Universal healthcare in those countries --> :lmfao::lmfao::lmfao:

There are people DYING in Canada just waiting for their turn to get a new heart/kidney. So in other words they're getting fucked over because they are paying for healthcare that they will never get. They might as well play the lottery.

[tony]

We turned our nose up to Japan at one time now guess who we are in debt to. To have this mentality like America is still supreme and nobody else compares is ignorant, I see it more and more as I delve deeper into investing.

On the Canada thing, I can only speak from the experience of a very personal friend.. if I knew she wouldn't take it to be a waste of time I'd have her post up exactly what she deals with.. but she's not into the political discussions. Go ahead and keep thinking they die waiting for a kidney, sounds more like partisan propaganda than actual truth.

[Bajjani]

We turned our nose up to Japan at one time now guess who we are in debt to. To have this mentality like America is still supreme and nobody else compares is ignorant, I see it more and more as I delve deeper into investing.

On the Canada thing, I can only speak from the experience of a very personal friend.. if I knew she wouldn't take it to be a waste of time I'd have her post up exactly what she deals with.. but she's not into the political discussions. Go ahead and keep thinking they die waiting for a kidney, sounds more like partisan propaganda than actual truth.

Umm, I have family there. A lot of family there. When there is something wrong with them we fly them into doctors here in the US its that bad. I'm speaking from personal family experience, MULTIPLE encounters with it.

And no one is trying to talk about America being a supreme super power...just we dont wanna fuck ourselves overeither

[Total_Blender]

There are people DYING in Canada just waiting for their turn to get a new heart/kidney. So in other words they're getting fucked over because they are paying for healthcare that they will never get. They might as well play the lottery.

There are people dying everywhere to get organs. Thats why they need the organs in the first place, because they are dying. There are waits for transplants here too, people on the lists die every day :screwy:

The only people who don't have to wait for transplants are those who have the bankroll to go to some backwards ass country, buy an organ on the black market. I have no sympathy for those people when they die as a result of their hackjob transplants.:2cents:

[BanginJimmy]

Neither of us can say what will or wont happen, only time will tell and the legislation is moving.

Just look at medicare, medicaid, and the VA for a glimpse into the future. All of them have 1 thing in common. They are grossly over budget every year and they provide second rate care for the extra money.

[Total_Blender]

Just look at medicare, medicaid, and the VA for a glimpse into the future. All of them have 1 thing in common. They are grossly over budget every year and they provide second rate care for the extra money.

The oldtimers I have talked to always tell me about how the VA has been stepping up the quality of their care in the past few years. It may be over budget (not dignifying your assertion that it is until I look at a source) but it meets the needs of the people.

I still think government insurance is a more fair deal than private insurance, as private insurance makes their money by denying claims. There should at least be competition and coverage for those who don't have access to private insurance. Put them side by side for a while and see which one people gravitate toward.

As far as the comment about the Gov't providing gyms for people to stay healthy... execrize is free. It doesn't cost money to run, or do some damn pushups and crunches.

Greater access to preventative care is what will reduce costs. People finding their cancer earlier, better pre-natal care, etc etc. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[zspeed24]

But what about the increased productivity from a healthy and more capable workforce? Also, under a single-payer plan you'll be spending more in taxes, but nothing essentially nothing on private insurance so it would balance out.

They may be healthier but business won't be able to afford to hire anyone. We won't be, any new hires from here on out will be from a staffing service, don't have to carry comp unemployment paid days off and health insurance. Why bother?

[tony]

Ok the wife got mad at me last night cause I kept reading and replying to this thread so I'm going to calm down a bit lol. Either way we can go back and forth till we're blue but obviously reform is needed. What I don't understand is, what makes America so strong is the middle class, not the divide between the haves and the have nots. With the current health system you have those who can afford coverage and those who cannot...

Better yet, who here pays for their health coverage? Plain and simple yes or no. I'm covered under my employer.

[zspeed24]

I pay for myself my wife and my son.

[Hundo®]

Ok the wife got mad at me last night cause I kept reading and replying to this thread so I'm going to calm down a bit lol. Either way we can go back and forth till we're blue but obviously reform is needed.


no, no reform is NEEDED. There's is absolutely nothing wrong with our health care system as it stands.

[Bajjani]

Ok the wife got mad at me last night cause I kept reading and replying to this thread so I'm going to calm down a bit lol. Either way we can go back and forth till we're blue but obviously reform is needed. What I don't understand is, what makes America so strong is the middle class, not the divide between the haves and the have nots. With the current health system you have those who can afford coverage and those who cannot...

Better yet, who here pays for their health coverage? Plain and simple yes or no. I'm covered under my employer.


Yes and No, I'm covered under my employer but I own 49% of the company. Does that count as yes or no?

[Total_Blender]

no, no reform is NEEDED. There's is absolutely nothing wrong with our health care system as it stands.

Are you in the market for a bridge, good sir? I have several to choose from...

New River Gorge, Fayette County VW
http://www.officialbridgeday.com/uploads/images/new-river-gorge-aerial.jpg

Golden Gate Brigde, San Francisco, CA
http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/california/images/s/california-golden-gate-bridge.jpg

Brooklyn Bridge, NYC
http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2101692/brooklyn-bridge-main_Full.jpg

London Bridge, London UK
http://www.ce.ntu.edu.tw/photo/bridge/bridge31bLondon%20Bridge.jpg


Bridge to nowhere, Gravina Island, AK
http://www.knikbridgefacts.org/images/watershedkbf.jpg

[AnthonyF]

Voted for McCain, clearly would have been a much better choice.

-Ant.

[Hundo®]

Are you in the market for a bridge, good sir? I have several to choose from...

New River Gorge, Fayette County VW
http://www.officialbridgeday.com/uploads/images/new-river-gorge-aerial.jpg

Golden Gate Brigde, San Francisco, CA
http://www.destination360.com/north-america/us/california/images/s/california-golden-gate-bridge.jpg

Brooklyn Bridge, NYC
http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/2101692/brooklyn-bridge-main_Full.jpg

London Bridge, London UK
http://www.ce.ntu.edu.tw/photo/bridge/bridge31bLondon%20Bridge.jpg


Bridge to nowhere, Gravina Island, AK
http://www.knikbridgefacts.org/images/watershedkbf.jpg

non sense. that's what that post is.

[BanginJimmy]

I am covered through my employer. After my wife was laid off and before my insurance kicked in I looked into a major medical plan. It had a 1k deductible and a 1 mil ceiling. It would only cost me about $150 a month for me and my wife.

Anyone that tells you that health insurance isnt affordable, they are lying. What isnt cheap, but still affordable to someone with a stead job, is a plan that covers regular check-ups, prescriptions and the like.

[Atlblkz06]

Voted for McCain, clearly would have been a much better choice.

-Ant.

Clearly!
:lmfao:


Thanks to all who responded.

I hope you guys are able to get a job here soon.
Its rought out there - but you guys will pull through :cheers:

[Total_Blender]

So how would McCain have done any better?

Here's how I see a McCain presidency unfolding:

1.) Gitmo torture ends but facilities still used to house prisoners (same as it is now)

2.) No health insurance reform of any kind (which is awesome if you like getting screwed by insurance companies)

3.) A deployment to Georgia, Mexican standoff there re-ignites the Cold War.

4.) Increased Russian support of "new cue lurr [sic]" programs in DPRK and Iran.

5.) All the defense debt that comes from deploying on 3 fronts (Georgia, AFGN, Iraq).

6.) No extension of unemployment benefits.

7.) GM, Dodge, and their suppliers collapse. 30-40% unemployment in Michigan. Riots, anarchy in Detroit.

8.) GM collapse is the death blow for US manufacturing. Those mfgr's who are still here say bye-bye.

9.) Gun toting, bible thumping, anti-science conservo-douche appointed to supreme court.

10.) Sarah Palin goes on world speaking tour, alienates every single US ally and just makes us look bad. More American travelers and ex-pats abroad start sewing UK or Canada patches on their jackets.

Thats how I see a Mayor McCheeze running things.

[Hundo®]

So how would McCain have done any better?

Here's how I see a McCain presidency unfolding:

1.) Gitmo torture ends but facilities still used to house prisoners (same as it is now)

2.) No health insurance reform of any kind (which is awesome if you like getting screwed by insurance companies) no ones getting screwed, except idiots who don't check up on multiple plans.

3.) A deployment to Georgia, Mexican standoff there re-ignites the Cold War. no.

4.) Increased Russian support of "new cue lurr [sic]" programs in DPRK and Iran.

5.) All the defense debt that comes from deploying on 3 fronts (Georgia, AFGN, Iraq). Probably more defense debt, yea.

6.) No extension of unemployment benefits. GOOD. No more wasted tax dollars for lazy fucks who refuse to get off their ass and find a job.

7.) GM, Dodge, and their suppliers collapse. 30-40% unemployment in Michigan. Riots, anarchy in Detroit. Negative.

8.) GM collapse is the death blow for US manufacturing. Those mfgr's who are still here say bye-bye. Negative.

9.) Gun toting, bible thumping, anti-science conservo-douche appointed to supreme court. I dunno about you, but i like my fucking guns.

10.) Sarah Palin goes on world speaking tour, alienates every single US ally and just makes us look bad. More American travelers and ex-pats abroad start sewing UK or Canada patches on their jackets.

Isn't that exactly what Obama is doing? Except no one feels alienated for it. He's in every country, once a week, and making a new television appearance daily. He's a complete waste of space.



there you have it.

[Total_Blender]

Well thats my take on what would have happened. And then there was the very real possibility of him kicking the bucket Sarah Palin becoming president... fuck a bunch of that.

Of course it doesn't really matter since we picked the right guy for the job, anyway .:goodjob:

Edit: I like my guns too. I don't give a damn about yours though.

[onebadgt]

i wont get into a 3 page spill and i know it has been mentioned 100 times already but obama is a horrible pres. he has done nothing to help 95% of the population. and he get nominated for the nobel peace prize within his 1st month of presidency. wth did he do in the first month other than smile a lot and spout out lies. but dont call him a liar or you will be like that guy who had charges pressed against him for racial profiling., black, white, asian, hispanic. no matter what color obama is it would still be an awful jon in the white house!

[Total_Blender]

i wont get into a 3 page spill and i know it has been mentioned 100 times already but obama is a horrible pres. he has done nothing to help 95% of the population. and he get nominated for the nobel peace prize within his 1st month of presidency. wth did he do in the first month other than smile a lot and spout out lies. but dont call him a liar or you will be like that guy who had charges pressed against him for racial profiling., black, white, asian, hispanic. no matter what color obama is it would still be an awful jon in the white house!

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/15/Never_go_full_retard.jpg

[Justin51982]

* American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) - $787B "buy-in" plan - PUTTING US DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO DEBT.

* Socialized health care bill (opt-out penalty?) -ANOTHER STEP CLOSER TO A SOCLIALIST SOCIETY - I don't feel the government owes me healthcare

* Winning the Nobel peace prize - I FORGOT THAT HE HAD CREATED SO MUCH WORLD PEACE IN THE MONTH OR SO HE WAS IN OFFICE (SARCASM)

* Energy policiy (smart grid) - I AM UNINFORMED ON THIS AND CANT GIVE MY OPINION.

* Foreign Policy - HE DOES MORE FOR THEM THAN HE DOES FOR US.

* whatever else you can think of. - I won't go there

This is my cliff notes version of my opinions.

[Bajjani]

I had my .02 in here, but advice. Don't call someone stupid for their opinions, more than likely you won't change their opinion but defend your point, argue theirs, and let the cards fall as they will. Be mature in a debate don't flame.

Thats all.

[BanginJimmy]

* Energy policiy (smart grid) - I AM UNINFORMED ON THIS AND CANT GIVE MY OPINION.

Dont forget Cap and Trade which will raise utility bills for for average citizen by 100-200% monthly.

[tony]

I had my .02 in here, but advice. Don't call someone stupid for their opinions, more than likely you won't change their opinion but defend your point, argue theirs, and let the cards fall as they will. Be mature in a debate don't flame.

Thats all.

So true, at the end of the day its just politics. I had to take a couple of days away from political talk cause I could feel it getting personal for me when I know it can't be.

[MachNU]

Its just funny is this thread, almost everyone is agreeing with each other, except Total Bender. You can tell by all his responces, his head is so far up a Donkeys ass (:lmao: pun intended) that he is spouting baseless opinions, but when someone trys to rebuttle him you get a responce like "I will only dignify this one with a responce, because all your others are so right, I can not dispute them."

[BanginJimmy]

Its just funny is this thread, almost everyone is agreeing with each other, except Total Bender. You can tell by all his responces, his head is so far up a Donkeys ass (:lmao: pun intended) that he is spouting baseless opinions, but when someone trys to rebuttle him you get a responce like "I will only dignify this one with a responce, because all your others are so right, I can not dispute them."


Actually you typically get a pic or a gif when he knows logic and truth are not on his side. The insults usually come pretty quickly also.