You thoughts on a f22 head + f23 block

[bigdare23]

I got the hybrid bug

Every since I went b20vtec, I fell in love with torque. So I'm looking for another motor to toy with, and possibly throwing in my spare EF hatch shell. I'm considering using a f23 vtec block, and then installing k20a pistons or boring it out to 87mm and installing k24 piston. I believe this combo yields a c/r around 11 something. Then I would remove the f23 head, and mounting a non vtec f22 head on the block (I believe it mounts right on up without any problems). According to Bisi, this head is the best flowing head Honda created, and f22s aftermarket support is growing. If everything goes right, the motor should be 86mm (or 87mm) x 97mm, rev to about 6.5k, and make a shit load of torque. What are your thoughts on this hybrid setup? I would install basic bolts and some bisi goodies in addition. As for a transmission, I'm considering using a d-series transmission (yea F2D) if I could install everything without tilting/cutting my hood like H2B EFs. If not, it would be mounted to the cheapest F/H tranny I could find LOL. I'm trying to avoid moding the chassis much to accept another motor. That's why I would prefer not to use a f or h transmission.


Your thoughts and/or suggestion. :goodjob:

[dorin48]

rev to about 6.5k

+


I would install basic bolts and some bisi goodies in addition

= No sense.

Rev that bitch.

As long as the oiling is good the bottom end shouldn't complain about higher rpms. I think 7.5k or somewhere near that is totally feasible without the possibility of premature failure of bearings.

[bigdare23]

+



= No sense.

Rev that bitch.

As long as the oiling is good the bottom end shouldn't complain about higher rpms. I think 7.5k or somewhere near that is totally feasible without the possibility of premature failure of bearings.



I was thinking like his stage 1 cams (the power range is good to about 6.5k). Honestly I'm not too worried about high revs. Plus, I shouldn't have to rev it that high with that stroke to make power.

[gerardojdm]

So with you putting on a nov-vtec head then that means there isnt going to be vtec. Pointless. i think its a waste of time time and money

[EmminoDaGreat]

F-awk it. drop f23 in w/ turbo make 300ft/lbs like me :)

[K24cb7coupe]

if do this swap, use the f22a6 head from 9293 ex bisimoto header which on on sale thru a group buy for $629. bisi-cams, h23 itbs, 0809 tsx pistons should get you about 11.6:1 compression

[slostang]

i say f23 bottom end with an h22 head...

[lude66]

i say f23 bottom end with an h22 head...

x2 or just go h22 with itbs....ext

[K24cb7coupe]

a h22 with itbs with get spanked but the sohc setup he wants.

[Vteckidd]

pointless, you would be faster with a Stock ITR motor which costs less or about the same and requires nothing to be put together.

Ive never been a fan of putting this header with that block with those pistons and mixing it all up. I understand BUDGET BUILDS, but chances are if you do a budget build and its something like this it wont be done right.

Building a motor using different heads, blocks, etc isnt a budget at all.

KISS aka KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID :D

[K24cb7coupe]

true it is easier to keep things as simple as possible, but i still think a g23 vtec would be cheaper than and itr. And with k20 pistons will make more power than an itr. the build uses all oem honda parts

[bigdare23]

So with you putting on a nov-vtec head then that means there isnt going to be vtec. Pointless. i think its a waste of time time and money


There's a reason why I would be going non-vtec rather than vtec ;)

According to Bisi, the f22 head is the "BEST" flowing head Honda made. In addition, the f23 vtec has a unique exhaust port layout, so there's not a good header for it. Also, the cam selection is limited. The f22 head is Bisi's head of choice, so the cam selection is much better.

LSVtec were created because LS head didn't flow as well as Vtec heads. So I would be basically doing the same thing. When it comes to f-series, the non vtec head flows better (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

[bigdare23]

F-awk it. drop f23 in w/ turbo make 300ft/lbs like me :)

:D

That's actually a good idea, but I'm kinda sprung on N/A :boobies:

[bigdare23]

if do this swap, use the f22a6 head from 9293 ex bisimoto header which on on sale thru a group buy for $629. bisi-cams, h23 itbs, 0809 tsx pistons should get you about 11.6:1 compression


I was waiting for an Accord/Prelude guy to check in. Do you have links to any similar builds? As for now, this motor is just on the drawing board until I save a little bit more.

Also, thanks for the advice and validating my idea. :goodjob:

[bigdare23]

i say f23 bottom end with an h22 head...

No thanks on the G23 :no:

It's not as easy as Super Street (I think that was the magazine) made it seem. You have to fab up a couple of things, and seal up some oil passages on the head to get it work without leaking. Plus Bisi made a strong claim that the f22 head flows better than a h22 with minimum work, so this would test his claim :goodjob:

[xdavidscenex]

go for it man. go all out!!

[Vteckidd]

There's a reason why I would be going non-vtec rather than vtec ;)

According to Bisi, the f22 head is the "BEST" flowing head Honda made. In addition, the f23 vtec has a unique exhaust port layout, so there's not a good header for it. Also, the cam selection is limited. The f22 head is Bisi's head of choice, so the cam selection is much better.


While Bisi has done some great things, he has a PhD and years of engineering behind him, as well as unlimited (or semi unlimited budget) of building race cars.

So what if an F22 head is the best flowing head around, go build a SOHC F22 motor versus my off the shelf ITR OEM motor , i guarantee i make more power for cheaper. Go take the hundreds of other B Series motors out there that make 190whp with EASE with OEM cams. Or Hell H23 VTEC motors with CAMS making 220whp. Its so EASY theres really no need to be different.



LSVtec were created because LS head didn't flow as well as Vtec heads. So I would be basically doing the same thing. When it comes to f-series, the non vtec head flows better (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

LSVTEC wasnt invented because of Poor LS head flow, it was done because GSR Longblocks were so expensive. No one was building LS motors, everyone wanted VTEC. Problem was a GSR LONGBLOCK was $3000+ from the dealer and from importers, where LS motors were $500-1000.

So someone (Steve Rothenbueler aka Omniman) one night decided to see if he could bolt a VTEC head to the LS block and did it.

All im saying is you are looking at this:
Machine work
Bisi header $600+
Bisi Cam $200-300
Tuning
Pistons
Bearings
Headgasket
oil pump
valvetrain
F2D Kit
Mounts
axles
Assembly

Theres all kinds of stuff needed to do what you are talking about, and at the end of the day i would bet money it makes less than 170whp has a lower redline, sure it makes more TQ but any mild bolt on B16 CRX or 1.8L CRX/EF is going to roll you when your shifting at 6500-7000 and you will be severely handicapped with the gearing youll have.

I told you a long time ago, B16 swaps are $1500 TOPS, and its the best platform to start with in an EF. Hell i bought my CRX with a LSD B16 RUNNING for $2500. Sold the B16 for $900 and put a $2000 ITR longblock in it.

[Vteckidd]

No thanks on the G23 :no:

It's not as easy as Super Street (I think that was the magazine) made it seem. You have to fab up a couple of things, and seal up some oil passages on the head to get it work without leaking. Plus Bisi made a strong claim that the f22 head flows better than a h22 with minimum work, so this would test his claim :goodjob:

I agree with the G23 point of view, its about as productive as doing this F22/23 non vtec build.

Again, Headflow is 1/10th of the problem. STOCK B series heads flow enough to make 200whp (i have proof)

Show me a F22 that makes anywhere NEAR that power, non vtec too, for less than what a $2000 longblock costs


OH im not hating , if you have the money and the expertise, nothing is stopping you, i just found from my experience that less is more, its so simple to make power and be fast, that i dont see any reason to go outside the norm to have a fun car

[Starrfire]

My opinion is that different is not always better...

[K24cb7coupe]

I was waiting for an Accord/Prelude guy to check in. Do you have links to any similar builds? As for now, this motor is just on the drawing board until I save a little bit more.

Also, thanks for the advice and validating my idea. :goodjob:

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=118749

here is a few, most of these are just f22ax motors with head and block work:goodjob:

[BABY J]

I see your vision bro ;)

Unlike a lot of cookie-cutter shit out there I'd do it just to learn and see what it's about. The only difference is if your building a TQ monster you can't afford to go budget on the front suspension, rear suspension and tires or you will blow through tires and still be going nowhere fast. Could be a monster from the roll though. You get big displacement.

If you can make the TQ stick you won't need to worry about revs as much as less displacement setups - 6500 isn't the best but if you can shift fast and then smash some more of that TQ down on somebody's ass you will still stretch them. People don't understand that you don't NEED revs when you make torque. (diesels, v8s, etc).

Personally... if you don't go for it let it be b/c you don't want to - not b/c people say it's stupid. You're always a vtec head away from more HP and more TQ just like my non-v build. I already have a built GSR head ready for action IF I needed to prove a point to some1. But I'm having fun competing w/ the vtec guys and smashing on 'em too! I built what I wanted to build despite what people said bc I stopped bulding shit for every1 else's approval years ago and started building what the fuck I wanted to build - the proof, serious D16 EG in the making as we speak - and YES all-motor. ;)

Good luck w/ the build man and I'd love to see it come together. You're surgical w/ your research - I've seen it in action - spreadsheet junky just like me - not just doin' shit off the top of your head. As long as you keep that approach it's impossible not to be happy. And at the end of the day - when the hood is popped in a parking lot you actually get to teach people shit b/c it's not the same old shit they see every weekend.

[Sammich]

IMHO...NO

[bigdare23]

While Bisi has done some great things, he has a PhD and years of engineering behind him, as well as unlimited (or semi unlimited budget) of building race cars.

Thus this is true. That's why I would trust his word. His income was (is) based on how fast he goes, so if he says the f22 head is the best head Honda made, there must be something special about. Plus, the Honda scene was dominated by B-series for a long time (until the K-series became ready available), so not much research was put into every other Honda series motor. Hell, people are just now jumping on the h22 bandwagon even tho that motor is 15+ years old. My point is, since other motor are actually getting aftermarket support now why not try them? They tend to have larger stroke and bores, so that mean at least more torque. There rod/stroke ratios may not be the best, but I don't plan to rev the piss out of it anyways. Plus, that haven't stopped people from building b20Vtecs or LSVtecs



So what if an F22 head is the best flowing head around, go build a SOHC F22 motor versus my off the shelf ITR OEM motor , i guarantee i make more power for cheaper. Go take the hundreds of other B Series motors out there that make 190whp with EASE with OEM cams. Or Hell H23 VTEC motors with CAMS making 220whp. Its so EASY theres really no need to be different.

I don't want to build a pure F22 because I want to utilize the stroke of the F23. Plus if I'm not mistaken, the F23 block is just a stroked F22 block (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So "technically" it will be just putting together a stroke f22. Mike, we both know 190whp is not easy with OEM cams (even with CTR cams) without bumping the c/r. Then you have to factor in machine work. Stock B16s can't see that, stock GSRs I doubt will touch that, stock B18Cs may see it if you tune the shit out of it, and you can't really put compare hybrid motors because they aren't stock (and most people bump the c/r when building them). The H23 VTEC can make that amount because of the stroke and bore (which is larger than all b-series motors). Plus this motor is not too common, and I might add is expensive. Can B-series make horsepower? Yes, but limited when it comes to torque unless you sleeve it and overbore or stroke it, and that's the reason why I'm considering other motors



LSVTEC wasnt invented because of Poor LS head flow, it was done because GSR Longblocks were so expensive. No one was building LS motors, everyone wanted VTEC. Problem was a GSR LONGBLOCK was $3000+ from the dealer and from importers, where LS motors were $500-1000.

So someone (Steve Rothenbueler aka Omniman) one night decided to see if he could bolt a VTEC head to the LS block and did it.


Think about it, if there wasn't anything wrong with the LS head then there would be no reason swap unless you just wanted to fake the funk so everybody would go :eek: "He got a GSR". Yes they wanted a cheaper route to make power (dont everybody). Since power is made in the head, and a GSR head flows better than a LS head, I would consider that to be a reason to swap head in addition to cost factor.




All im saying is you are looking at this:
Machine work
Bisi header $600+
Bisi Cam $200-300
Tuning
Pistons
Bearings
Headgasket
oil pump
valvetrain
F2D Kit
Mounts
axles
Assembly


Theres all kinds of stuff needed to do what you are talking about, and at the end of the day i would bet money it makes less than 170whp has a lower redline, sure it makes more TQ but any mild bolt on B16 CRX or 1.8L CRX/EF is going to roll you when your shifting at 6500-7000 and you will be severely handicapped with the gearing youll have.

I told you a long time ago, B16 swaps are $1500 TOPS, and its the best platform to start with in an EF. Hell i bought my CRX with a LSD B16 RUNNING for $2500. Sold the B16 for $900 and put a $2000 ITR longblock in it.


This is true to a point, but I look at it like this. Doing any other swap I would need everything except the stuff dealing with the rebuild (and the F2D kit) unless I was going to half ass. That can easily add $1000 on top of the price of the swap. So that's now $2500 for a stock b16 swap to $4500 for a stock Type R swap buying from a respectable dealer (since I WILL NOT buy a motor 2nd hand that I plan on dropping in without a complete rebuild). And that's not modifying it at all. I believe I can put this motor together and in my EF hatch for slightly more than a b16 swap and be able to dust the floor with any stock b-series motor and many modified because of the torque it would be making. Sure it won't rev, but you only rev where you make power, and their powerband peaks at like 6-7k. So I won't have to rev that high.

I came to the conclusion that b16 are good reliable motors, but they are not great if you plan on making power N/A. My b16 made 176/116 untuned the last time I dynoed it before I pulled it, and this was with CTR cams, bolt-ons, and a stock block and head. The problem was this motor was peaky as hell!!! I made like 100hp until 5.5k the I gained 76hp the last 3k. That's a sucky powerband. Cars that made less HP but more TQ would jump on me and I would have to come from behind (that's if I was able to). So I don't really care about max power now. My concerns is usable power. B-Series make good power, but you have to rev the piss out of it and that's not what I'm looking for.:goodjob:

Last rebuilding motor doesn't cost "too" much if you goto the right places know the right people. So I believe I can have the motor machined assemble for relatively cheap.

[bigdare23]

I see your vision bro ;)

Unlike a lot of cookie-cutter shit out there I'd do it just to learn and see what it's about. The only difference is if your building a TQ monster you can't afford to go budget on the front suspension, rear suspension and tires or you will blow through tires and still be going nowhere fast. Could be a monster from the roll though. You get big displacement.

If you can make the TQ stick you won't need to worry about revs as much as less displacement setups - 6500 isn't the best but if you can shift fast and then smash some more of that TQ down on somebody's ass you will still stretch them. People don't understand that you don't NEED revs when you make torque. (diesels, v8s, etc).

Personally... if you don't go for it let it be b/c you don't want to - not b/c people say it's stupid. You're always a vtec head away from more HP and more TQ just like my non-v build. I already have a built GSR head ready for action IF I needed to prove a point to some1. But I'm having fun competing w/ the vtec guys and smashing on 'em too! I built what I wanted to build despite what people said bc I stopped bulding shit for every1 else's approval years ago and started building what the fuck I wanted to build - the proof, serious D16 EG in the making as we speak - and YES all-motor. ;)

Good luck w/ the build man and I'd love to see it come together. You're surgical w/ your research - I've seen it in action - spreadsheet junky just like me - not just doin' shit off the top of your head. As long as you keep that approach it's impossible not to be happy. And at the end of the day - when the hood is popped in a parking lot you actually get to teach people shit b/c it's not the same old shit they see every weekend.

Thanks

[bigdare23]

Mike I do see where you're coming from with the don't reinvent the wheel mentality. I guess it's the engineer in me that has me wanting to do something else (more). Or the fact that I'm doing my thesis and research on diesel and bio-diesel in IC engines and I see the amount of torque these motors are making and I'm jealous LOL

[Vteckidd]

Mike I do see where you're coming from with the don't reinvent the wheel mentality. I guess it's the engineer in me that has me wanting to do something else (more). Or the fact that I'm doing my thesis and research on diesel and bio-diesel in IC engines and I see the amount of torque these motors are making and I'm jealous LOL

hey man, do what you have to do, i just dont like seeing people disappointed with the end result cause what you are talking about doing is going to cost money, and a lot of time.

But hey, youre right, it is different, and if its what you want to do, go for it! It would be interesting to see for sure.

Good luck either way

[r@bisimoto]

While Bisi has done some great things, he has a PhD and years of engineering behind him, as well as unlimited (or semi unlimited budget) of building race cars.


Bisimoto does not have unlimited budgets for building race cars. We build a Civic Wagovan with a d16z6 to attempt 700whp. Not an F1 indy car. Unlimited budget!?! No.

[Vteckidd]

Bisimoto does not have unlimited budgets for building race cars. We build a Civic Wagovan with a d16z6 to attempt 700whp. Not an F1 indy car. Unlimited budget!?! No.

his old race car probably has more money in it than anyone on this board can afford.

Whether it was sponsors or not, you cant tell me he built a 10 second NA car with parts laying around. sorry

[liltree]

DUDE GO F23 WITH A H22 TRANY WITH THE ACCORD TYPE R ECU AND YOU BE TAKING ENY HACH WITH GSR,LSVTEC,B16, I GAT THAT SETUP IN A 94 4 DOOR ACCORD AND THAT SHIT IS RUNING HI 13S STOCK

[TopNotchEG9]

x2 or just go h22 with itbs....ext

x3...i agree...

[Aeroscout977]

They guys at hy tech made 300whp NA with a K24 bottom H22 crank and a K20 head and some cams. Just an idea.

[EmminoDaGreat]

LMK if you need some f23 stuff, also have f22 head.

[I <3 my EF]

Dare do what you want. IMHO I would do a bored out f22. The differences in a f22 and f23 are 1mm of bore and 2mm of stroke. They have same deck height. If it was me I'd do a f22 block/head/crank, bored 40 over, k20a1 pistons, single layer headgasket, f22 rods and a good cam with a tune...12:1 compressiom=game over.The only bad thing is the rod to stroke ratio :eek:


Bisimoto does not have unlimited budgets for building race cars. We build a Civic Wagovan with a d16z6 to attempt 700whp. Not an F1 indy car. Unlimited budget!?! No.

I'm sure that custom Turbonetics turbo is in my budget...or that sleeved block...or that cam...or that all aluminum exhuast. So for race cars you don't have a unlimited budget but for street cars you do??? Because that car makes it seem like you do. Just looking at that build and thinking about the cost makes me want to vomit. All that just to prove a point he can build powerful turbo cars???

[JdM_EJ2]

DUDE GO F23-V WITH A H22 TRANNY WITH THE ACCORD TYPE R ECU AND YOU BE TAKING ANY HATCH WITH GSR,LSVTEC,B16, I GOT THAT SETUP IN A 94 4 DOOR ACCORD AND THAT SHIT IS RUNING HI 13S STOCK yup this retards accord actually pulls pretty nice and all it has is I/H/E.

[Vteckidd]

DUDE GO F23 WITH A H22 TRANY WITH THE ACCORD TYPE R ECU AND YOU BE TAKING ENY HACH WITH GSR,LSVTEC,B16, I GAT THAT SETUP IN A 94 4 DOOR ACCORD AND THAT SHIT IS RUNING HI 13S STOCK

Bullshit . Or you are racing kids who can't drive.

F23 makes 150whp, no fucking way in a 3000lb accord you are taking swapped eg hatches. Even if you were making 200whp, weight alone a gsr eg hatch would murder you.

This is why I hate this forum too much bullshit gets posted

[112480]

F-awk it. drop f23 in w/ turbo make 300ft/lbs like me :)


And STILL be SLOW!!:lmfao::lmfao::lmfao::lmfao::lmfao:

[112480]

Bullshit . Or you are racing kids who can't drive.

F23 makes 150whp, no fucking way in a 3000lb accord you are taking swapped eg hatches. Even if you were making 200whp, weight alone a gsr eg hatch would murder you.


X2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JDMJAYDC2]

update on this?

[Franco Tirador]

you can find f22 and f23 all day at the pullapart

[.blank cd]

Bullshit . Or you are racing kids who can't drive.

F23 makes 150whp, no fucking way in a 3000lb accord you are taking swapped eg hatches. Even if you were making 200whp, weight alone a gsr eg hatch would murder you.

This is why I hate this forum too much bullshit gets postedIm glad my accord doesnt weigh that much. LOL

[Vteckidd]

Im glad my accord doesnt weigh that much. LOL

94-97 accord curb weight ranges from 2855-3034lbs

So if he weighs 200lbs it's a 3000lb car or more

even if it was a 2600 lb car with him in it (meaning it was severely gutted)it would still get waxed by any b series swapped hatchbacks

[.blank cd]

94-97 accord curb weight ranges from 2855-3034lbs

So if he weighs 200lbs it's a 3000lb car or more

even if it was a 2600 lb car with him in it (meaning it was severely gutted)it would still get waxed by any b series swapped hatchbacksMine said 2700lbs :thinking:

[Franco Tirador]

here is some some labor build

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=67333

[Drummerboy]

I only read the first page, so I may be missing some details. But F22a6 head is supposed to be the best flowing, and have the most agressive cam. i'm running an F22a1-T in my prelude and LOVE it. If you want to go N/A, then your idea of a stroked F sounds good. So I say F22a6 head and intake manifold, Bisi cam/pro springs, F23 block, K24 pistons.

And as for the transmission, My stock F trans is out of gear at about 157mph, so I think you'll be fine unless you plan on going faster, lol. The first couple gears are pretty short but great for launching.

[EssexCounty]

loving the information..... bump keep it coming