What do you think?

[The Ren]

Happens when you die? (real talk for a minute) This has been a heavy subject the past few weeks at work and home (I work with my family). I can say im a spiritual person, and embrace my jewish heritage, but as much as I believe there is a higher being, I have always wondered if heaven is just a way to make dying more manageable or if there really is something else.. What's your thoughts?

[quickdodge®]

Depends on your death, it can. As evidenced many times over, some "people" stick around on Earth for either a little while or for eternity. For people that do leave the planet (if they really leave at all), no one truly knows. For what people say about Heaven, I hope it's there and I go there. But I guess I just don't know. Later, QD.

[BluesClues]

I'm with QD on this. I don't really know. The bible speaks of their being a heaven and so therefore I guess there is, but do I know for a fact? No. Why are some people left behind to wonder the earth? I mean there are so many questions, but honestly can never be answered. It if makes death easier to deal by believing their is a heaven, then what's the problem? I can only trust in what I read because by questioning I will never have the answers. :dunno:

[ISAtlanta300]

Depends on your death, it can. As evidenced many times over, some "people" stick around on Earth for either a little while or for eternity. For people that do leave the planet (if they really leave at all), no one truly knows. For what people say about Heaven, I hope it's there and I go there. But I guess I just don't know. Later, QD.

Best answer possible..... :goodjob:

i'm with QD

[bu villain]

I would guess nothing happens but I don't really know. Of course believing in an afterlife or heaven sure makes death a lot less scary. For good or bad, we fear the unknown, that's human nature.

[-EnVus-]

I know there is a heaven and i'm a strong believer of my faith. I don't try to argue with people about if its real or fake and if god does or don't exist. That isnt what he wants nor is the bible about. I just can say this when i die id rather be at peace knowing or believing there is a better place for me in the after life. That heaven and my family is waiting for me. Why would i wanna be a nay sayer what does that do for me when its my time. Those are the ones who will worry and be scared the most. When you have no hope or dreams of what is for you to come. That is what will be the scary part of dieing.
I know ill be going happy and at peace i just pray for the ones that will be lost and damned for eternity.

[quickdodge®]

I know there is a heaven and i'm a strong believer of my faith.

I know you believe strongly in your faith so you might not see my point (and I'm not trying to conflict you), but there is a difference in "knowing" and "faith." You don't "know" that there is a heaven. You faith allows you to believe there is a heaven. And I find nothing at all wrong with that. It's great to have something to believe in. A belief of an afterlife where you could spend a happy eternity. I honeslty hope that that is how it ends and I'd want to be a par of that. However;


Why would i wanna be a nay sayer what does that do for me when its my time.

Not "knowing for sure" what is to become of us, it can be hard to say. Some people live their life on facts. Not one human being on this Earth knows for a fact that there is a heaven. I strive to do good in my life so that if that time comes and if there is Heaven that will allow me to enter, then I'll be glad to. I follow the 10 Commandments to a tee (aside from the dreaded GD word which I hate myself for using each time i do) and hope that my actions on Earth will be rewarded nicely when I'm not of this Earth. I guess we'll see, huh. Later, QD.

[BABY J]

Personally I wouldn't waste time energy and effort w/ this one. Focus on what you can see and taste and touch and feel. Make this life here on Earth the best life that you can... it is liekly the only life that you will have. To ask the invisible for more than what we as a people have already bveen blessed with is is just plain rude. IMO the BLESSING is the opportunity that you have already been given to live on this rock and make good choices and help people and live a good life - I feel that it ends there. IMHO when you die you're done.

[quickdodge®]

Personally I wouldn't waste time energy and effort w/ this one. Focus on what you can see and taste and touch and feel. Make this life here on Earth the best life that you can... it is liekly the only life that you will have. To ask the invisible for more than what we as a people have already bveen blessed with is is just plain rude. IMO the BLESSING is the opportunity that you have already been given to live on this rock and make good choices and help people and live a good life - I feel that it ends there. IMHO when you die you're done.

That's kind of how I'm doing. I live my life well. I don't steal, kill, do things that would endanger people, live a reckless life, do drugs, cheat or anything that would be immoral. I live almost a Christian-like life without really being a Christian. If Heaven is there for me, then cool. If not, then cool. But I'm living my life now how I think it should be lived. Later, QD.

[The Ren]

Personally I wouldn't waste time energy and effort w/ this one. Focus on what you can see and taste and touch and feel. Make this life here on Earth the best life that you can... it is liekly the only life that you will have. To ask the invisible for more than what we as a people have already bveen blessed with is is just plain rude. IMO the BLESSING is the opportunity that you have already been given to live on this rock and make good choices and help people and live a good life - I feel that it ends there. IMHO when you die you're done.


I agree with this too.. I realize I only have one life on earth to live.. and Im going to live it to my full capacity. I will love to the fullest, live to the fullest, and strive to be the best woman I can be.

[-EnVus-]

That's kind of how I'm doing. I live my life well. I don't steal, kill, do things that would endanger people, live a reckless life, do drugs, cheat or anything that would be immoral. I live almost a Christian-like life without really being a Christian. If Heaven is there for me, then cool. If not, then cool. But I'm living my life now how I think it should be lived. Later, QD.
If they was a way to prove that God doesn't exist and that when we die thats it done and over would we wanna live in that world ?
I mean we have a sinful world now full of hate crime and death if they knew for a fact and if they was no God then we would have all been dead and gone long ago from the craziness of our ways of living and the people of our world.

[quickdodge®]

If they was a way to prove that God doesn't exist and that when we die thats it done and over would we wanna live in that world ?

Who knows. No one because no one truly knows how we got here in the first place. So no one knows our purpose here. I see the better argument to prove His existence than to disprove it.

Again, I'm not knocking you as I don't do that. Your posts are strongly faith driven and that's why you favor the existence of God. I'm on the fence so I'm able to see both sides. That's all, man. Later, QD.

[-EnVus-]

Who knows. No one because no one truly knows how we got here in the first place. So no one knows our purpose here. I see the better argument to prove His existence than to disprove it.

Again, I'm not knocking you as I don't do that. Your posts are strongly faith driven and that's why you favor the existence of God. I'm on the fence so I'm able to see both sides. That's all, man. Later, QD.
Yes sir to everyone their own...But when you die and if you haven't accepted Jesus as your savior and God as his father your creator. Then you wont get in to heaven but for a few seconds to be judged and sent to hell for not following his most important rule and that is to know and Acknowledge thy father and the holy Christ his son.

[The Ren]

Yes sir to everyone their own...But when you die and if you haven't accepted Jesus as your savior and God as his father your creator. Then you wont get in to heaven but for a few seconds to be judged and sent to hell for not following his most important rule and that is to know and Acknowledge thy father and the holy Christ his son.

See That I dont agree.. Im jewish and we dont accept him as our savior.. yet I still believe if there is a heaven I will be going there.

[-EnVus-]

See That I dont agree.. Im jewish and we dont accept him as our savior.. yet I still believe if there is a heaven I will be going there.
The Jews are the ones who crucified him and Christ died so they could be forgiven and if you still dont accept him then well.......

[The Ren]

The Jews are the ones who crucified him and Christ died so they could be forgiven and if you still dont accept him then well.......

Have you actually read the old testiment.. Do you realize the difference between jews and christians? Do you also realize if it werent for jewish people you wouldnt have christianity?

[-EnVus-]

Have you actually read the old testiment.. Do you realize the difference between jews and christians? Do you also realize if it werent for jewish people you wouldnt have christianity?
The Jewish people crucified Jesus thats what i do know and he died for them and all of us.

[The Ren]

The Jewish people crucified Jesus thats what i do know and he died for them and all of us.
So what you're saying is you have not.. Then you obviously couldnt comprehend why I am saying what I am saying as a jew..

[-EnVus-]

So what you're saying is you have not.. Then you obviously couldnt comprehend why I am saying what I am saying as a jew..
No i read the new testament king James version. I would exspect a jew to read and think different thats not the point my point is to just live a good and sinless life and accept god and Jesus and all who do will go to heaven.

[The Ren]

No i read the new testament king James version. I would exspect a jew to read and think different thats not the point my point is to just live a good and sinless life and accept god and Jesus and all who do will go to heaven.

Thats your opinion.. but again being a jew even I know the jews did NOT crucify jesus.. even in the new Testament.. but this is way off topic.. Back to the original question.

[zimabog]

Here is my take on the matter:

Through my research I have concluded that some type of evolution is true. That means humans evolved from some type of other primate, and that other type of primate evolved from some type of monkey, and that type of monkey evolved from some other type of mammal, and that type of mammal evolved... going all way back to the most simplest of creatures.

These simple creatures could not be judged by their actions. You can not judge a mouse on it's integrity, you can not judge a fish by it's morals, you can not judge a bacterium by it's ethics.

So where in human evolution did the ability to be judged and go to an afterlife occur? Did it occur in Homo Erectus? Were pre-homo sapiens able to go to Heaven? Where is this bold clear line of NO HEAVEN / HEAVEN in human evolution? Since there isn't really a bold clear line in evolution anyway, how can something so black/white, on/off such as a Heaven/Hell exist? Why are humans so determined that we are so different than the rest of the animal kingdom? We are animals just like dogs, cats, squirrels, mice. The only thing majorly different is our brain power. If our brain is the only major component so different, then the soul must be in the brain. But the brain is a material object, so how can an immaterial object depend solely on this material brain object. So when your brain gets destroyed you unique humanness is also destroyed. So how do you go to Heaven without your material brain? You can't. So I guess there is no Heaven/Hell.

[-EnVus-]

Here is my take on the matter:

Through my research I have concluded that some type of evolution is true. That means humans evolved from some type of other primate, and that other type of primate evolved from some type of monkey, and that type of monkey evolved from some other type of mammal, and that type of mammal evolved... going all way back to the most simplest of creatures.

These simple creatures could not be judged by their actions. You can not judge a mouse on it's integrity, you can not judge a fish by it's morals, you can not judge a bacterium by it's ethics.

So where in human evolution did the ability to be judged and go to an afterlife occur? Did it occur in Homo Erectus? Were pre-homo sapiens able to go to Heaven? Where is this bold clear line of NO HEAVEN / HEAVEN in human evolution? Since there isn't really a bold clear line in evolution anyway, how can something so black/white, on/off such as a Heaven/Hell exist? Why are humans so determined that we are so different than the rest of the animal kingdom? We are animals just like dogs, cats, squirrels, mice. The only thing majorly different is our brain power. If our brain is the only major component so different, then the soul must be in the brain. But the brain is a material object, so how can an immaterial object depend solely on this material brain object. So when your brain gets destroyed you unique humanness is also destroyed. So how do you go to Heaven without your material brain? You can't. So I guess there is no Heaven/Hell.
stfu that shit is just ignorant dont stray from from op topic

[Scotsman]

heaven for me i hope lassie , i fully believe in the man upstairs

[-EnVus-]

heaven for me i hope lassie , i fully believe in the man upstairs

amen to that lol

[zimabog]

stfu that shit is just ignorant dont stray from from op topic


The op topic is "Happens when you die?"

Debating whether Jesus was killed by Jews or Romans is not the question.

[Maniacc]

People are afraid of death. Thinking that they won't really die makes them happy - feel better about themselves. Humans are aware of their own impending death, but are in a high level of denial. It's probably because society today is so selfish that they cannot picture leaving everything that they've accomplished here - and have nothing afterwards. A heaven - could be a place of pure happiness, and have powers that could provide anyone with whatever they desire.

This, motivates them to "work hard" to reach heaven. Stupidity at its best.

[bu villain]

I know there is a heaven and i'm a strong believer of my faith. I don't try to argue with people about if its real or fake and if god does or don't exist. That isnt what he wants nor is the bible about. I just can say this when i die id rather be at peace knowing or believing there is a better place for me in the after life. That heaven and my family is waiting for me. Why would i wanna be a nay sayer what does that do for me when its my time. Those are the ones who will worry and be scared the most. When you have no hope or dreams of what is for you to come. That is what will be the scary part of dieing.
I know ill be going happy and at peace i just pray for the ones that will be lost and damned for eternity.

I agree that believing in heaven may make the end of life easier for some however some of us don't feel that just because we want it to be true makes it so. We aren't trying to be "nay sayers" we are just admitting our own ignorance...also known as humility.

[bu villain]

If they was a way to prove that God doesn't exist and that when we die thats it done and over would we wanna live in that world ?

I would absolutely. I enjoy living on this world and I don't believe in God as it is. Just cause the party has to end sometime doesn't mean you should just stay home. It's quite the opposite, if our life really is over when we die, time is even more precious so you better make the most of it while you are alive.

[sport_122]

This is an interesting thread.

I am a believer. I believe the claims that Christ made based on pieces of evidence, but I also don't believe the methodological thinking that we place on our understanding of heaven. For instance the thought process of the clouds and golden pearly gates and golden streets, etc etc... that was a construct of men and that idea is not really supported in the Bible. I think that we have lost some of the meaning and understanding of what heaven is, and maybe we never really understood it. Because I believe the Bible to be accurate, I can look at the accounts of men who were gifted to be able to look into heaven, but even in their accounts there are things that we are not supposed to know, which is evident when the angels give instruction to not record certain things that are seen.

But I definitely can't agree with these two points of view:
1. I am just going to be good and see what happens (who defines good? if your goodness is defined by you then it is relative. Relative goodness is evil to someone else. To some people we are evil just because we are Americans, in this case whose moral compass trumps the other. If you base your goodness on the bible and following the commandments (Jewish or not) then you have to admit that the Bible says that none are good except one. This is evidenced for Christians by the need for death and resurrection of Christ, and this is evidenced by Jews by their continued need for sacrifices as a way to repent to God for breaking the law. Either way the Bible says to Jews and Christians, you trying to be good is not good enough.)
or
2. I think we just die and that's it. With all of the accounts of the supernatural part of humanity it is strange for anyone who has really looked into this to assume that death is the end of you. I think the evidence shows that somehow, some part of us lives on in some form of existence. Ghosts, spirits of the long since dead communicating or visiting their living relatives or friends. Physical manifestations of other worldly things. These are some of the evidences for a more than physical human existence.

[sport_122]

People are afraid of death. Thinking that they won't really die makes them happy - feel better about themselves. Humans are aware of their own impending death, but are in a high level of denial. It's probably because society today is so selfish that they cannot picture leaving everything that they've accomplished here - and have nothing afterwards. A heaven - could be a place of pure happiness, and have powers that could provide anyone with whatever they desire.

This, motivates them to "work hard" to reach heaven. Stupidity at its best.

and thus the reason why every man on this forum should take a very serious inquiry into the claims of Christ. (notice I did not say the claims of Christianity)

Because if the body of Christ was not produced and there were witnesses to his death, and then witness to him living (physically) AFTER his death, then even what you have written is not necessarily true. History shows that a man walked this Earth, died, and did not stay dead.

You see for me, I have no fear of death. Nor do I place the value of my life on physical things. My view on death is that it must come, but it is not the end. It makes perfect sense for a believer in Christ to cope with death by believing that they will live, because Christ said that they would live, as he said the he would live, and there is very strong evidence to suggest that death was not his end. If this is even remotely possible, then everyone on this planet should take careful consideration of the evidence with an open heart.

This is the moment that defines Christ as not just another prophet, but the true Messiah, who conquered death, (the greatest enemy to mankind).
Put yourself in the shoes of the people who witnessed this (BTW...some scholars believe there were some 500 ish witnesses to a resurrected Christ) But even now 2000 years later. Name one other person who has ever been speculated to have done this...I think anyone who does not investigates this with sincerity does their own intellect a disservice.

You act as if our worldly possessions have influenced this thought, but look at human history...we have no record of a single society who widely thought that death was the end. But just so you know we have records of countless societies who have had nothing, and still lived with an understanding that death is not the end. This idea is not thought up, its ingrained in our humanity.

I actually think the denial is on the part of those who look at all the evidence and have to force themselves to think its all mumbo jumbo. I mean you really have to deny your own consciousness to believe that you are just physical meat and bones and nothing more. IF that is the case what compels you to "just be good and live a good life" Why? If your are not a morally grounded being then why not just do what you want? People do really well financially by lying and cheating and stealing. Why does that not work well for you. If you are just flesh and bones, another animal...why not go out and chase tail instead of getting married....why not eliminate all the competition, why worry about your comfort, why go to college, why vote, why visit the religion threads on this forum. None of these things make sense to me in a world where we just 'are'.

I believe that some people on here are having these discussions in an attempt to justify their life apart from their spirituality because they are the ones trying to feel better about themselves. Make yourself feel better by finding an illiterate religion freak and telling them like it is...but ask yourself why thats important to you? If you just are, why is it important to you to try to get in these types of conversations. There is something more to every single one of us because somehow we are all in the same boat. And for those of you who fit this description you can't make me feel any worse than I do when I think about my wrongdoing leading to the sacrifice of a man who had no fault. That makes me hurt, because I cannot stop doing wrong and every time there is a painful reminder of why I am a believer in Christ. You can't make believers feel worse than that.

sorry for the length

[cbr900rrguy]

why do we even have a religion section? it's a waste. there is no right/wrong answer. no one knows for sure. this argument has been going on forever and will continue to go on forever so what's the point in going back and forth with each other? you believe what you want to believe.

[_Christian_]

I know there is a heaven and i'm a strong believer of my faith. I don't try to argue with people about if its real or fake and if god does or don't exist. That isnt what he wants nor is the bible about. I just can say this when i die id rather be at peace knowing or believing there is a better place for me in the after life. That heaven and my family is waiting for me. Why would i wanna be a nay sayer what does that do for me when its my time. Those are the ones who will worry and be scared the most. When you have no hope or dreams of what is for you to come. That is what will be the scary part of dieing.
I know ill be going happy and at peace i just pray for the ones that will be lost and damned for eternity.
That's fine if it makes you more comfortable with death, however that doesn't add any truth value nor does it provide any evidence for the existence of a god. Non-believers can't just choose to have blind faith in something that makes no logical sense to them...except for maybe Kirk Cameron, but not the case with the majority of atheists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Saying that either there's no god or the Christian god is a false dichotomy. What if you're worshiping the wrong god? There are many religions that damn all nonbelievers, so the odds of the Christian god being the right one, if there is a god in the first place, are very slim.

If they was a way to prove that God doesn't exist and that when we die thats it done and over would we wanna live in that world ?
I mean we have a sinful world now full of hate crime and death if they knew for a fact and if they was no God then we would have all been dead and gone long ago from the craziness of our ways of living and the people of our world.
There doesn't have to be an invisible guy looking over everyone's shoulder for people to do good things. If I know that this is the only life I'll get, it has much more value than if I know I will live infinitely past my death. As Steven Weinberg put it, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." When looking at the whole timeline of human evolution, religion only came into existence in our most recent ancestors. We did just fine up until that point. Religion is purely man made.

I believe that when your body dies, your mind follows suit and returns to a state of nonexistence, just like before your birth. There's no good evidence to suggest that a soul transcends the body or that there is any sort of afterlife. I think believing otherwise is just wishful thinking. When you die, you're dead. That's it, no escape to a magical sky kingdom, no eternal suffering. Feeling this way makes me realize just how precious life is and how privileged I am to be a part of it.

[Humphrizzle]

you die then decompose.

your body is still there. your mind is brought wherever you want it to go. just like in life.



Death is eternal imagination.

[BABY J]

There doesn't have to be an invisible guy looking over everyone's shoulder for people to do good things. If I know that this is the only life I'll get, it has much more value than if I know I will live infinitely past my death. As Steven Weinberg put it, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." When looking at the whole timeline of human evolution, religion only came into existence in our most recent ancestors. We did just fine up until that point. Religion is purely man made.

I believe that when your body dies, your mind follows suit and returns to a state of nonexistence, just like before your birth. There's no good evidence to suggest that a soul transcends the body or that there is any sort of afterlife. I think believing otherwise is just wishful thinking. When you die, you're dead. That's it, no escape to a magical sky kingdom, no eternal suffering. Feeling this way makes me realize just how precious life is and how privileged I am to be a part of it.

SUCCESS!!!!!!!!:goodjob:

[BluesClues]

and hope that my actions on Earth will be rewarded nicely when I'm not of this Earth. I guess we'll see, huh. Later, QD.

x2 :goodjob:

[BABY J]

QD you are going to hell for all of the negative reps that you have provided the general IA populace.

[quickdodge®]

QD you are going to hell for all of the negative reps that you have provided the general IA populace.

But I should be rewarded aptly for the positives Ive bestowed upon people as well. Later, QD.

[sport_122]

There doesn't have to be an invisible guy looking over everyone's shoulder for people to do good things. If I know that this is the only life I'll get, it has much more value than if I know I will live infinitely past my death. As Steven Weinberg put it, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."So please, define good, because there are plenty of "good" people doing evil things that are not people of some sort of faith. My point is that I do not consider myself good nor do I consider myself religious. Religious to me defines a person who believes that their goodness or lack of determines their sanctity. If I could honestly look at my life and consider myself to be "good" then there is a problem with my own view of myself. I have lied, I have stolen, I have hurt other people...so how can I qualify myself as good? All it takes is one time. The question of morality is right and wrong...it is yes or no...you either are good or you are not. If you have any wrong in you then you cannot be good. I could have lived a great life and my only wrong doing was murder...am I still good? I only did one wrong thing...why would I be bad? What is your definition of good vs bad? Do you think its a scale...the amount of good vs the amount of bad...now how do you know if your "good" deeds in and of themselves did not cause bad results? Are they still good if they do?

My point is that this statement assumes a universal definition and understanding of good. We do not carry one, yet we have a morally understood code, which Weinberg denies...well this is a philosophical problem. We do not have a definition of good yet we can call the acts of a man good or evil...This statement doesn't really make sense in his world view because good and evil are relative constructs of human intellect, and there is no ground for you to judge my good or bad because it is just as valuable as yours. When we prosecuted the generals of Nazi Germany this was not a suitable defense "in our country, doing what we did was legal therefor you cannot punish us for what we did in service of our country under our countries law" they made this argument and we said, yes we can because the laws that you violated were laws against all of mankind and the laws of man condemn you.



When looking at the whole timeline of human evolution, religion only came into existence in our most recent ancestors. We did just fine up until that point. Religion is purely man made.



that is false. We do not have records of any society that was religion/faith free. Not a one. Now if you are talking about organized widespread religion then that is a different story...the mega churches and cultural priorities that infiltrate faith systems is damaging and that is something that happened in the last 3000 years.

But I actually find it interesting that you said the wrong God vs the right God. For instance when you address the Judeo-Christian God vs Zeus and Thor, you are now talking about something much different. You are talking about something that has been argued with evidence vs something that has none to support the existence. This is a very significant that should be addressed.

You are right though about some people taking more evidence to believe. I am one of those people, and it took tons of evidence for me to believe what I believe, but I will say that the evidence is there and I believe it is an act of God to open hearts to understanding of such things, because in the hardness of our hearts we can deny anything regardless of evidence...

But back on topic,
The question about what happens after you die is not just a Christian question, but so many approach it that way when just about every religion contributes its understanding of morality to some sort of after this life reward. Now my beliefs are that the Christian faith has the best evidence laid out that if you were to bring the case to a court there could be no wrong, just as there was no wrong in Christ.

How do you give account to the enumerable religions that all have beliefs in the afterlife, and how do you account for the studies that have been done and the paranormal to support such beliefs? I don't believe that the thousands upon thousands of accounts of paranormal activity are all wrong. In fact all it takes is one account to be true, just like with UFO's, Jesus.

[bu villain]

But back on topic,
The question about what happens after you die is not just a Christian question, but so many approach it that way when just about every religion contributes its understanding of morality to some sort of after this life reward. Now my beliefs are that the Christian faith has the best evidence laid out that if you were to bring the case to a court there could be no wrong, just as there was no wrong in Christ.

This isn't evidence for an afterlife. It is evidence that religions understand a promise of reward/punishment helps to change behaviors.


How do you give account to the enumerable religions that all have beliefs in the afterlife, and how do you account for the studies that have been done and the paranormal to support such beliefs? I don't believe that the thousands upon thousands of accounts of paranormal activity are all wrong. In fact all it takes is one account to be true, just like with UFO's, Jesus.

One of the main purposes of religion is to answer the scary and difficult questions in life in order to make people feel better or more comfortable. If a religion claimed there were no afterlife it sure would be harder to control people's behaviour.

Even though I don't necessarily agree I will concede there are legitimate paranormal phenomenon for the sake of argument. That still doesn't prove an afterlife. We certainly don't understand such phenomena (if they exist at all) so I think it's rather premature to use them to claim it proves an afterlife. For example, it could be a lingering energy thats like a snapshot of a person's thoughts before they died. It hardly proves they still have consciousness. Also, there is absolutely no reason to believe its for eternity either.

[sport_122]

This isn't evidence for an afterlife. It is evidence that religions understand a promise of reward/punishment helps to change behaviors.

One of the main purposes of religion is to answer the scary and difficult questions in life in order to make people feel better or more comfortable. If a religion claimed there were no afterlife it sure would be harder to control people's behaviour.

Even though I don't necessarily agree I will concede there are legitimate paranormal phenomenon for the sake of argument. That still doesn't prove an afterlife. We certainly don't understand such phenomena (if they exist at all) so I think it's rather premature to use them to claim it proves an afterlife. For example, it could be a lingering energy thats like a snapshot of a person's thoughts before they died. It hardly proves they still have consciousness. Also, there is absolutely no reason to believe its for eternity either.

Gary Schwartz's study demonstrated that something is left of the consciousness of people who are deceased. He of course gets flaked for it because it is not mainstream, but none-the-less he provided hard data that when looked at objectively makes a good case for something going on that is legitimate.

Also, the idea of whether or not there is an eternity is a different discussion, we can go into that too, but I thought this thread was simply about what we thought happens when you die. Even if that afterlife is only for a couple of moments to a couple of decades there is still something left to be understood about what makes us who we are.

Humans are physical, mental, and spiritual. We possess something that cannot be measured through hard science and numbers because these things transcend the physical. To understand their existence and to define them scientifically are two different things. I am suggesting that there is life...I am not suggesting that we have been able to scientifically pen the specifics of the transition into that life after life.

[BABY J]

Humans are physical, mental, and spiritual. We possess something that cannot be measured through hard science and numbers because these things transcend the physical. To understand their existence and to define them scientifically are two different things. I am suggesting that there is life...I am not suggesting that we have been able to scientifically pen the specifics of the transition into that life after life.

Where is your proof that all humans are spiritual???

[bu villain]

Gary Schwartz's study demonstrated that something is left of the consciousness of people who are deceased. He of course gets flaked for it because it is not mainstream, but none-the-less he provided hard data that when looked at objectively makes a good case for something going on that is legitimate.

Link to said study? I would be interested in reading it.

[02SloWrx]

What happens? Are you a muslim? If so, read the "Qur'an" and you will find out. Are you christian? Read the bible "You will find out". And if you read both Bible or Qur'an, you will find that they talk about the same thing. Beleive it or not.

I'm a muslim, and I beleive in god. I've read and i've been told by people who read Qur'an what happens when you die. So I don't need to answer or question what happens when I die, cus I know what will happen, I follow Qur'an and beleive in Allah. I don't need other people opinions, and I dont see why you should need any either.

Each to his own tho, because NONE of us went and came back and told the story of how it is when you die.

I may not make any sense, but this is my comment. tybye.

[sport_122]

Where is your proof that all humans are spiritual???


as always, nobody can prove anything to anyone. The evidence is listed numerous times in these threads. Our greater connection to one another, research demonstrating a spiritual existence of people long deceased...if you want to look for evidence and you are serious there are TON of resources at your local bookstore, google, etc etc...but the evidence of a great human character that is not physical is plentiful to say the least.

[sport_122]

Link to said study? I would be interested in reading it.

this is a synopsis. You can get the finer details of the study. Of course there are still the skeptics, but read his research for yourself to determine whether or not you think his team covered the bases.

The studies are continuing under a new name.

also Victor Zammit. check him out. he offered a challenge to skeptics to join him is study. A challenge of which nobody stepped up to.

but anyway.

http://www.thepsychictimes.com/articles/life_after_death.htm

[DustnU]

It's really simple!! The BIBLE says there is a Heaven and Hell. What more do you need? If you are saved and accept the Lord JESUS CHRIST as your savior your IN, if you DON'T your Not. Those who know him and have a relationship with him will enter the gates of Heaven, those who deny him and choose another path go to HELL! John 3:16 says it all, For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son so whoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life!! Either you believe or you don't theres no ridding the Fence when it comes to Eternity!!!!

[Camrazy2102]

What happens? Are you a muslim? If so, read the "Qur'an" and you will find out. Are you christian? Read the bible "You will find out". And if you read both Bible or Qur'an, you will find that they talk about the same thing. Beleive it or not.

I'm a muslim, and I beleive in god. I've read and i've been told by people who read Qur'an what happens when you die. So I don't need to answer or question what happens when I die, cus I know what will happen, I follow Qur'an and beleive in Allah. I don't need other people opinions, and I dont see why you should need any either.

Each to his own tho, because NONE of us went and came back and told the story of how it is when you die.

I may not make any sense, but this is my comment. tybye.

i am with you on this :goodjob:

[The Ren]

It's so interesting to me to get the take on other religons on this subject..

[DustnU]

I know everyone has their own opinion or beliefs but the FACT of the matter is..... You only get to HEAVEN one way and thats through JESUS CHRIST!! All other religions are FALSE. There is only ONE GOD and he is in HEAVEN and has an EMPTY tomb. Allah,Buddah, Muhammad and whoever else, they are all Burried in the ground!!!!!!!!!!! Believe whats in your heart, and when the day comes and your at the gates of HEAVEN they will look in the BOOK OF LIFE and see if your name is in it, and if you NEVER knew JESUS it won't be!!!!!!!!!!! SATAN and HELL are REAL and wait for all who don't BELIEVE!!!!!

[bu villain]

this is a synopsis. You can get the finer details of the study. Of course there are still the skeptics, but read his research for yourself to determine whether or not you think his team covered the bases.

The studies are continuing under a new name.

also Victor Zammit. check him out. he offered a challenge to skeptics to join him is study. A challenge of which nobody stepped up to.

but anyway.

http://www.thepsychictimes.com/articles/life_after_death.htm

It's interesting but the article gave almost no details of how the study was performed. I really need to see the actual report from the study to see if there is any validity. From the synopsis it seems like its proving some people can get information through a sort of telepathic like link but I'm not sure what about the study shows that dead people are the ones communicating. For example, if you get a letter from a person and they die before it reaches you, it doesn't mean you are receiving messages from the afterlife. Anyways, I won't judge until I see the report, if I can find it.

[BABY J]

as always, nobody can prove anything to anyone. The evidence is listed numerous times in these threads. Our greater connection to one another, research demonstrating a spiritual existence of people long deceased...if you want to look for evidence and you are serious there are TON of resources at your local bookstore, google, etc etc...but the evidence of a great human character that is not physical is plentiful to say the least.

So you have none. Ok.

[The Ren]

I know everyone has their own opinion or beliefs but the FACT of the matter is..... You only get to HEAVEN one way and thats through JESUS CHRIST!! All other religions are FALSE. There is only ONE GOD and he is in HEAVEN and has an EMPTY tomb. Allah,Buddah, Muhammad and whoever else, they are all Burried in the ground!!!!!!!!!!! Believe whats in your heart, and when the day comes and your at the gates of HEAVEN they will look in the BOOK OF LIFE and see if your name is in it, and if you NEVER knew JESUS it won't be!!!!!!!!!!! SATAN and HELL are REAL and wait for all who don't BELIEVE!!!!!

This is not a topic to get into a heated religous discussion.. We shall agree to disagree because I do not believe what you have stated above..

[zimabog]

I know everyone has their own opinion or beliefs but the FACT of the matter is..... You only get to HEAVEN one way and thats through JESUS CHRIST!! All other religions are FALSE. There is only ONE GOD and he is in HEAVEN and has an EMPTY tomb. Allah,Buddah, Muhammad and whoever else, they are all Burried in the ground!!!!!!!!!!! Believe whats in your heart, and when the day comes and your at the gates of HEAVEN they will look in the BOOK OF LIFE and see if your name is in it, and if you NEVER knew JESUS it won't be!!!!!!!!!!! SATAN and HELL are REAL and wait for all who don't BELIEVE!!!!!


http://img2.allposters.com/images/HPM/HM36.jpg

[_Christian_]

So please, define good, because there are plenty of "good" people doing evil things that are not people of some sort of faith. My point is that I do not consider myself good nor do I consider myself religious. Religious to me defines a person who believes that their goodness or lack of determines their sanctity. If I could honestly look at my life and consider myself to be "good" then there is a problem with my own view of myself. I have lied, I have stolen, I have hurt other people...so how can I qualify myself as good? All it takes is one time. The question of morality is right and wrong...it is yes or no...you either are good or you are not. If you have any wrong in you then you cannot be good. I could have lived a great life and my only wrong doing was murder...am I still good? I only did one wrong thing...why would I be bad? What is your definition of good vs bad? Do you think its a scale...the amount of good vs the amount of bad...

You aren't necessarily evil because you have done those things. Whether you are good or not has less to do with the quantity of evil deeds and more to do with the impact of those deeds on other people. If you murdered someone than you have caused the ultimate harm to that person. That makes you more evil than liars or thieves because you have inflicted the worst possible damage upon your fellow man.

The bible says it's a sin to lie, but what if I lived in Nazi Germany and was hiding Jews in my home. Then one day the Gestapo comes by and asks if I'm harboring Jews. In that case would lying be immoral? Would I be a better person for telling the truth?



now how do you know if your "good" deeds in and of themselves did not cause bad results? Are they still good if they do?

You don't always know. Sometimes what seems like the right thing to do can be wrong, in that case the deed is no longer good. However that doesn't make the person bad if they really meant to do good, it just means they made a mistake. I still think people should be held accountable for all their actions regardless of intent.



My point is that this statement assumes a universal definition and understanding of good. We do not carry one, yet we have a morally understood code, which Weinberg denies...well this is a philosophical problem. We do not have a definition of good yet we can call the acts of a man good or evil...This statement doesn't really make sense in his world view because good and evil are relative constructs of human intellect, and there is no ground for you to judge my good or bad because it is just as valuable as yours. When we prosecuted the generals of Nazi Germany this was not a suitable defense "in our country, doing what we did was legal therefor you cannot punish us for what we did in service of our country under our countries law" they made this argument and we said, yes we can because the laws that you violated were laws against all of mankind and the laws of man condemn you.
While I don't think there is an absolute objective good or evil, modern society has a fairly universal understanding of morality. We may disagree on some things but we have a general concept of what's right and what's wrong. Like I said above, it's based on how your actions effect those around you.



that is false. We do not have records of any society that was religion/faith free. Not a one. Now if you are talking about organized widespread religion then that is a different story...the mega churches and cultural priorities that infiltrate faith systems is damaging and that is something that happened in the last 3000 years.
Please show me evidence of religion in Homo habilis or even Homo erectus...



But I actually find it interesting that you said the wrong God vs the right God. For instance when you address the Judeo-Christian God vs Zeus and Thor, you are now talking about something much different. You are talking about something that has been argued with evidence vs something that has none to support the existence. This is a very significant that should be addressed.
They are all unfalsifiable and there is no evidence to support the existence of any god.



You are right though about some people taking more evidence to believe. I am one of those people, and it took tons of evidence for me to believe what I believe, but I will say that the evidence is there and I believe it is an act of God to open hearts to understanding of such things, because in the hardness of our hearts we can deny anything regardless of evidence...

If that's the case you should publish a peer reviewed scientific journal with all of your "evidence."



But back on topic,
The question about what happens after you die is not just a Christian question, but so many approach it that way when just about every religion contributes its understanding of morality to some sort of after this life reward. Now my beliefs are that the Christian faith has the best evidence laid out that if you were to bring the case to a court there could be no wrong, just as there was no wrong in Christ.

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."



How do you give account to the enumerable religions that all have beliefs in the afterlife, and how do you account for the studies that have been done and the paranormal to support such beliefs? I don't believe that the thousands upon thousands of accounts of paranormal activity are all wrong. In fact all it takes is one account to be true, just like with UFO's, Jesus.
Consensus does not equate truth.

[The Ren]

wow +28

[DustnU]

http://img2.allposters.com/images/HPM/HM36.jpg

That is very true!! And so is what I stated above. I'm not trying to get heated it's my beliefs and that won't change. I feel for those who don't understatnd. Wish you all the best.

[BABY J]

A man who is not even OPEN to changing his "beliefs" may as well join a cult. That is a slick slope to be on.

[ARH1192]

After you die. Easy, you get buried 6 feet under. No heaven, no hell, no nothing.

[DustnU]

A man who is not even OPEN to changing his "beliefs" may as well join a cult. That is a slick slope to be on.

Not when they are the only TRUTH!!!!!!!! And the slick slope is Down on the way to HELL for those who aren't saved and accept JESUS as lord and Savior. Like I stated before there is no in between, no ridding fence no pergatory. It is only Heaven or Hell ^^^^^^ BTW you don't just die and get burried. Read the BIBLE!!!

[The Ren]

Not when they are the only TRUTH!!!!!!!! And the slick slope is Down on the way to HELL for those who aren't saved and accept JESUS as lord and Savior. Like I stated before there is no in between, no ridding fence no pergatory. It is only Heaven or Hell ^^^^^^ BTW you don't just die and get burried. Read the BIBLE!!!


I was trying to remain civilized but you sir are an idiot.

First off you need to learn how to spell.. second of all you say read the bible, but have you read it? No where in the old testament is there mention of hell... which is the original bible.. As baby J said.. those who are not "open" to accepting the views of others might as well be in a cult. Religion teaches tolerance not hatred as it seems you have.

[sport_122]

So you have none. Ok.

Because I know that you have read plenty of my post before, I will just leave this comment as it is...with all the stuff I have posted in these threads evidence is plentiful enough. It takes a man who is humble enough to say "I want to really look into this" to get off is butt and dig into it to see what it is really saying. I know you are more than capable of that.


A man who is not even OPEN to changing his "beliefs" may as well join a cult. That is a slick slope to be on.

for all you band-wagoneers this goes both ways. I have always said that if someone can provide good logical evidence that shows me that the resurrection of Christ did not happen and that transcendent things do not exist then I could recant my faith. But good luck on that because the very thing that I mention to you has be proven to me and the evidence is so great that my faith is strong and no other world view has successfully stood the test of time, and ages as that of the Judeo-Christian world view.

[The Ren]

Because I know that you have read plenty of my post before, I will just leave this comment as it is...with all the stuff I have posted in these threads evidence is plentiful enough. It takes a man who is humble enough to say "I want to really look into this" to get off is butt and dig into it to see what it is really saying. I know you are more than capable of that.



for all you band-wagoneers this goes both ways. I have always said that if someone can provide good logical evidence that shows me that the resurrection of Christ did not happen and that transcendent things do not exist then I could recant my faith. But good luck on that because the very thing that I mention to you has be proven to me and the evidence is so great that my faith is strong and no other world view has successfully stood the test of time, and ages as that of the Judeo-Christian world view.


I for one am not a band-wagoner.. I come from a very very long line of jews.. cohens to be exact (which were the high priests back in the "olden days") and I dont believe in jesus as being the son of g-d or the messiah.. I believe the messiah hasnt come yet. I have plenty of proof of my beliefs.. and those in my family who fought and died for our beliefs. Just like the tattoo my great grandfather had branded on him against his will, and those of my family who died unable to escape. But I am VERY tolerant of others beliefs.. heck my boyfriend isnt jewish. I still love him and he still loves me.. I will never push my beliefs on him and he would never push his beliefs on me.

[sport_122]

Sorry OP but this post is almost completely off topic.

Christian, there are plenty of other threads that this type of conversation could live in. but here is my response none the less.


You aren't necessarily evil because you have done those things. Whether you are good or not has less to do with the quantity of evil deeds and more to do with the impact of those deeds on other people. If you murdered someone than you have caused the ultimate harm to that person. That makes you more evil than liars or thieves because you have inflicted the worst possible damage upon your fellow man.

So... you also said this

I believe that when your body dies, your mind follows suit and returns to a state of nonexistence, just like before your birth.Well if this is the case then how do you rationalize penalties for murder. If life has no value save for a little bit of fun, then why does it have value should it be taken? Why does the individual life, in your world view, warrant protecting? If once a person is dead, they have not cognitive or conscious existence then why are they valuable?



The bible says it's a sin to lie, but what if I lived in Nazi Germany and was hiding Jews in my home. Then one day the Gestapo comes by and asks if I'm harboring Jews. In that case would lying be immoral? Would I be a better person for telling the truth? Again this question is misrepresenting the foundations of the Christian world view. As I stated in a previous post, you cannot be a better person either way, whether you tell the truth this time or whether you lie. It is very clear that the Bible states that none of us are good people. So in my worldview the only thing that can justify your actions, as loving actions, to save the lives of those you are harboring, is Christ, as his life is the only one that I believe to have ever been truly good.

Also, you misrepresent the commandment of lying. The commandments are about the condition of the heart during the deeds written with in. In other words, there is a very distinct difference between lying to save because of love, and lying to lie because of self preservation or malice intent. The condition of the heart in either of these opposing deeds is completely different. In the book of Samual God tells Samuel to be careful how he looks upon David (who would later be king), do not judge him based on his appearance because I have already rejecting him based on this, and then God tells Samuel, "but I am not a man, and what I am looking at (when looking at David) is his heart".

This is important, because as men we often try to judge whether or not we are "good" based on the outward. We do the same thing when we look at the character of God. But we cannot understand God therefore we are not able to give judgement toward him, yet we are given the



You don't always know. Sometimes what seems like the right thing to do can be wrong, in that case the deed is no longer good. However that doesn't make the person bad if they really meant to do good, it just means they made a mistake. I still think people should be held accountable for all their actions regardless of intent.

While I don't think there is an absolute objective good or evil, modern society has a fairly universal understanding of morality. We may disagree on some things but we have a general concept of what's right and what's wrong. Like I said above, it's based on how your actions effect those around you.
If there is no absolute morality, then how do you justify punishing anyone? If there is no absolute then how can you justify debating things in this thread? In saying there is no absolute, then you remove the validity of any statement that you make because you admit that what you say is not necessarily true, but its your opinion and anything you do is okay as long as it is your rule for yourself. This is where you lose the ability to punish those who do wrong because they are doing what is within their moral compass.

My christian world view, holds this accountability. How, because I believe that God is just, and that nothing can escape his justice and nothing can escape his law. I believe that his law is the absolute of which all men have built into the very DNA that identifies us. Outside of this worldview is relativism. You have just demonstrated relativism by saying that a persons actions can be bad, the person can be good, and they should be punished still.


Please show me evidence of religion in Homo habilis or even Homo erectus...This question assumes that I believe in this type of evolution. I don't. But I can say that in all of our history and pre-history, every man that we can truthfully understand their ways of life, had some sort of understanding of our extra-physical existence. Which is why I said religion/faith. Because in all of our existence we have always known there was more, but we do not truly "know" God until he reveals himself to us.

You can know that something is there but now "know" the specifics of that thing.



They are all unfalsifiable and there is no evidence to support the existence of any god.

If that's the case you should publish a peer reviewed scientific journal with all of your "evidence."The evidence is great. Its your ability or desire to really try to understand it that is lacking. Only a person in denial makes a statement like that. You see, I believe that all men know that there is a God, and we know that we have a set of rules of which we should live by that transcend our societal understandings of law. I think that is one of the reasons why people spend so much time trying to refute the evidence that is presented.

Much like your mother telling you to clean your room and you hear her calling your name ,but you simply ignore it. You know that she has the authority over you, yet you ignore her. You know that she can come into the room and punish you, yet you ignore her for the sake of your own foolishness, because you realize that your mother eventually will come and will set forth her authority over you. This is an example of the denial that I think some men demonstrate. You know in your deepest core that God is real, and so desperately we want to do our best to try to put him out of our minds because we also know that he is just and that he is powerful and that we have been running from him.



"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."


Consensus does not equate truth.[/quote]

I agree... so how can you be a relativist? Now remember that same thing when you try to argue evolutionary stand points and when you try to explain away morality. How do you suppose this statement to be true in your world view...in mine, Truth exists, in yours how does it? how do you have absolute truth in a world of relativism?

My point in all of this is that in order to even begin to make statements to support your world view, you have demonstrated that we must take away ideas from the Christian world view. You mentioned justice, you mentioned truth, you mentioned law...and all of these things have no grounding in anything if they are seen purely as constructs of men and products of culture in society. If that were the case, then your world view also believes that you are foolish for wasting time discussion these things of which you do not believe to be true/real.

[DustnU]

Sorry!! I actually don't have Hatred for anyone. Some people are just more passionate about their views. You all are intitled to believe what you want to, but to me it just isn't the truth. Please don't be angry I wasn't trying to upset anyone. Believe what you will and I'll do the same.

[bu villain]

I'm glad you brought up the issue of taking the bible literally (e.g., think that all lying is equally bad) but unfortunately many people seem to take everything in it literally:

God made man is his own image = God looks like a human
The universe was created in 7 days = Universe created in 168 hours

Except of course when it comes to things like stoning people, women talking in church, etc.

Anyways I would like to respond to a couple points.


Well if this is the case then how do you rationalize penalties for murder. If life has no value save for a little bit of fun, then why does it have value should it be taken? Why does the individual life, in your world view, warrant protecting? If once a person is dead, they have not cognitive or conscious existence then why are they valuable?

Life not having a "purpose" is not the same as having no value. Most atheist believe life is very valuable, not because of God but because it has intrinsic worth. If we would like to live then by definition life has value. We protect life because if we do not, then it is more likely that our lives in turn will not be protected. That is also why we value animals lives less than our own. There is much less danger for humans by not protecting animal life.


If there is no absolute morality, then how do you justify punishing anyone? If there is no absolute then how can you justify debating things in this thread? In saying there is no absolute, then you remove the validity of any statement that you make because you admit that what you say is not necessarily true, but its your opinion and anything you do is okay as long as it is your rule for yourself. This is where you lose the ability to punish those who do wrong because they are doing what is within their moral compass.

Actually punishment is not based on morality always. Running a red light is not immoral, especially if you make sure the intersection is clear first but we punish people for it because it makes the streets safer. From a Christian perspective, why should anyone be punished by other people? I thought the Bible says not to judge others and that God is responsible for justice.

[sport_122]

Actually punishment is not based on morality always. Running a red light is not immoral, especially if you make sure the intersection is clear first but we punish people for it because it makes the streets safer. From a Christian perspective, why should anyone be punished by other people? I thought the Bible says not to judge others and that God is responsible for justice.

All laws flow from an understanding of morality. The government is charged with a moral obligation to protect and enforce rules that will protect citizens.

Now of course this is not the same kind of universal morality that we normally speak of. But for the believer, breaking the red light law, is an immoral act against the laws of God. Because we are commanded to follow the laws of God and the laws of the authorities placed over us (as long as they do not conflict with the laws of God), then we are responsible for obeying traffic laws, and following the legal framework as laid out by the authorities that God has placed over us.

I also believe there is a difference between our internal moral code and our development or the revelation of laws in our universe. One is embedded and we do not need to discover it because it is already within us, and the other needs to be revealed and can be very subjective based on an infinite number of factors.

[ahmonrah]

when we officially die, in the physical sense, i dont know what happens. but we also dont know how the electricity that powers our bodies gets there either. but i guess that whenever this physical shell ceases to function, the energy that powers us returns to it's origin. call it the universe, the creator, god or whatever, we dont know.

but even if we do know, we dont remember.

So to spin off of this topic into another, that's related.....REINCARNATION: POSSIBLE?
science says that energy cant be created, nor destroyed, it changes form. we are powered by electricity, which in some ways can be called the soul, can it(energy) be recycled into other physical forms?

[bu villain]

But for the believer, breaking the red light law, is an immoral act against the laws of God. Because we are commanded to follow the laws of God and the laws of the authorities placed over us (as long as they do not conflict with the laws of God), then we are responsible for obeying traffic laws, and following the legal framework as laid out by the authorities that God has placed over us.


For your own sake, I hope you never move to an authoritarian country.

[sport_122]

For your own sake, I hope you never move to an authoritarian country.

Well authoritarian gov'ts don't typically do well for anyone, but my world view would not changed. I would obey (to the best of my rebellious tendencies) every law that does not conflict with what is a higher law. Keep in mind that i believe this physical existence is only a piece of the whole me. I value life, but death is not the end.

The type of government doesn't matter. Look at history. We see people of faith in every culture, every tongue, and of every color. My worldview beckons me to subscribe to a greater rule of authority, and never does it promise me that this is simple. In fact it tells me the opposite. People died in Nazi Germany because they would not conform, some die in China because they will not conform, Christians were slaughtered in Rome for sport because they would not renounce their faith. People on this very forum have taken on assaults and ridicule just for saying they believe and their faith is in Christ. Why would I expect differently from the rest of the world? I don't.

Do you think democracies are better?

[bu villain]

If you lived in Nazi Germany circa 1939, and someone of high authority asked you if your neighbor was a jew (which you knew he was), would you lie or not? Which part of the bible overrules the Nazi authority asking a simple question?

[zimabog]

id tell them he was a jew, but thats just me

[The Ren]

id tell them he was a jew, but thats just me

So you would have no problem letting your neighbor die for being a jew?

[sport_122]

If you lived in Nazi Germany circa 1939, and someone of high authority asked you if your neighbor was a jew (which you knew he was), would you lie or not? Which part of the bible overrules the Nazi authority asking a simple question?

you may want to study up on this. The antisemitic movement did NOT start in 1939. It was seeded long before that. Also, your question is loaded. You are leaving out the fact that most Germans knew what was happening to Jews. It was no secret.

Also, you ask which part of the Bible overrules them asking this question. Very simple. The commandment to not Kill, not commit murder. You are trying to look at the end action as separate from the first action. If you set out to gather information with the intent of harming someone else it is called plotting to kill, or conspiracy to kill. Not only is this against the intended law given by God, but it is against the man made laws in most country's. You are trying to assume that God's law is the same as mans. God gave laws that were intended to judge the heart of the persons involved. The condition of your heart is what determines your actions. The heart of a person who commit malicious murder is not the same as a person who kills to defend his life from the same person. The heart of a person who lies to gain is not the same as the heart of a person who lies to protect as he is commanded to value life.

[BABY J]

^^ Interesting that you say this.

* God killed. In great number.

* Thou Shalt Not Kill doesn't make any provisions on when it's acceptable and when it's not in the bibles that I have read.

* Either it's the WORD OF GOD or not. Not The Word of God As [enter your name here] Believes It To Be This Particular Day and Time of The Week

* The fact that people TEACH this shit and gladly andopenly say "well I think what god means here" is pretty much how you know it's manufactured.

I mean think about it - if I am GOD and MY WORD is THE WORD - I don't need you to "decipher" or construct times when it's okay to defy it. Your lie about not having any1 in your basement could be part ofthe devil's plan, not God. I mean it IS a lie ya know. Your lie in this case ALSO spares YOUR life b/c if they knew they truth they'd punish/kill you for aiding the Jews. So this lie IS about personal gain in the end b/c you CHOSE TO BREAK THE LAW (more devilish behavior huh - I'm sure that's a Godlike quality) by harboring Jews in the 1st place and lieing about breaking the law is the only way to save your ass.

MAYBE you were supposed to tell the truth and die at the stake so people's hearts would be softened to end the incursion altogether.

[Maniacc]

Religion. Gotta love this topic.

I think everyone spends way to much time seeking peace in life, peace is endless so why waste your time? It's the other shit that ain't. Fear, anger, lust, hate, love, everything none peaceful - are the only things persuing. To me, a good life is just trying to go through it not being a douche.

Treat people well and enjoy the brief time you have. Don't worry about religion, if there is a god - as long as you behave you should be okay, right? Any god who would send you to eternal hellfire if you were a good guy, but didn't go to church every sunday is a huge fucking tool - who isn't worth worshiping.

I normally put more effort into my religious-posts, but it has come to a point where it doesn't bother me anymore. God's presence is always going to be around because humans are always going to need something to cling on, to help them through their problems. Wasting time, money, your faith, and energy into something you have no evidence on just isn't smart. I enjoy reading these discussions though.

[bu villain]

you may want to study up on this. The antisemitic movement did NOT start in 1939. It was seeded long before that. Also, your question is loaded. You are leaving out the fact that most Germans knew what was happening to Jews. It was no secret.

Also, you ask which part of the Bible overrules them asking this question. Very simple. The commandment to not Kill, not commit murder. You are trying to look at the end action as separate from the first action. If you set out to gather information with the intent of harming someone else it is called plotting to kill, or conspiracy to kill. Not only is this against the intended law given by God, but it is against the man made laws in most country's. You are trying to assume that God's law is the same as mans. God gave laws that were intended to judge the heart of the persons involved. The condition of your heart is what determines your actions. The heart of a person who commit malicious murder is not the same as a person who kills to defend his life from the same person. The heart of a person who lies to gain is not the same as the heart of a person who lies to protect as he is commanded to value life.

I'm not sure why I need to study up. I merely gave a date it could have happened in, I wasn't claiming that was the date antisemitism against Jews started. And I wasn't trying to be tricky by not saying something about knowing the Jew would die. I thought that would be obvious and didn't need to be stated. Is this hair splitting really necessary?

My point was simply that many laws are not moral. In this case, it would be illegal to harbor a jew or lie to say the SS but it would be ethical responsible to break such a law. You said before that as long as it doesn't break God's law then it is moral. I agree many laws are based on morality but disagree that we are morally obliged to follow all laws just because they aren't directly contradicted by the so called word of God.

Baby J seems to be on the same page with me here. You responded with what seems to be your interpretation of "Thou shall not kill". Where does God's word clarify this commandment for all the times it is okay to kill, or lie for that matter? I'm talking about verses in the Bible.

[geoff]

to bu villian, you have to understand the difference between the old testament and the new. it was never ok for one to take anothers life or to lie because men took it into their own hands to decide who lived or died. the people that God ordered to be slaughtered in the bible where sinners who worshiped false idols and broke His commandments and God clearly stated " the wages of sin is death" and " vengence is mine ". God never commanded anyone innocent to be killed, it was the punishment for those who turned against Him. in the new testament He gave us grace because people just couldnt follow the rules and NOT once in the new testament did God command anyone to kill.


also to The Ren, im curious as to why those of Jewish faith don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah? i got something bigger for you, what would you say if i told you He was more than that, that He was God Himself in flesh? i have scriptual evidence to support my claims ofcourse

[bu villain]

to bu villian, you have to understand the difference between the old testament and the new. it was never ok for one to take anothers life or to lie because men took it into their own hands to decide who lived or died. the people that God ordered to be slaughtered in the bible where sinners who worshiped false idols and broke His commandments and God clearly stated " the wages of sin is death" and " vengence is mine ". God never commanded anyone innocent to be killed, it was the punishment for those who turned against Him. in the new testament He gave us grace because people just couldnt follow the rules and NOT once in the new testament did God command anyone to kill.


Many Christians do believe in the Old Testament (e.g., Ten Commandments). Why don't you believe in the Old Testament? Why is the NT more valid than the OT? Sorry it's hard to know what Christians believe because there are so many different forms. After all, Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

[geoff]

i never said that i dont believe in the ot or that the nt makes the ot irrelevant. Jesus came cuz we as people couldnt live up to the law. So God came in flesh as Jesus and was the sacrifice for our sins. basically, we no longer have to sacrifice goats and all to forgive our sins, but without the blood of Jesus you will have to answer for the LAW on judgement day