THE PRESIDENT WINS NOBEL PEACE PRIZE

[BobbyFresco]

READ HERE:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/10/09/nobel-peace-prize-obama.html

[Elbow]

AWESOME!!!

[BanginJimmy]

Can anyone tell me what he has done besides bash America?

[Evil Goat]

unfortunately they have just made a mockery of the NPP....

amazing what he did between Jan. 20th at Noon, when he took office, and Feb 1st, the deadline for nominations to disarm countries such as Iran.....oh wait....didn't Iran just test fire one of their biggest missiles and experts have determined they are a mere 5-7 years away from being able to equip such a missile with a nuclear warhead?

way to go obama....he's a true inspiration :rolleyes:

[zspeed24]

unfortunately they have just made a mockery of the NPP....

amazing what he did between Jan. 20th at Noon, when he took office, and Feb 1st, the deadline for nominations to disarm countries such as Iran.....oh wait....didn't Iran just test fire one of their biggest missiles and experts have determined they are a mere 5-7 years away from being able to equip such a missile with a nuclear warhead?

way to go obama....he's a true inspiration :rolleyes:

They made a mockery of the npp when Yasir Arafat (sp) won it.

[81911SC]

What a fucking joke.

[Vteckidd]

I think its awesome, they just proved how the Europeans will pander to Obama, and how Obama will pander to the Europeans.

He deserved this about as much as George W. Bush did

[MongolPup]

Obama wins 2009 Nobel Peace Prize

Obama award sad - NI Nobel winner

World reacts to Obama peace prize

I love this quote:

TALIBAN SPOKESMAN ZABIHULLAH MUJAHID

We have seen no change in his strategy for peace. He has done nothing for peace in Afghanistan. He has not taken a single step for peace in Afghanistan or to make this country stable.

We condemn the award of the Noble Peace Prize for Obama. We condemn the institute's awarding him the peace prize. We condemn this year's peace prize as unjust.

MOTHERFUCKERS WHO ARE YOU TO TALK ABOUT MAKING STEPS FOR PEACE OR STABILITY?!

[BobbyFresco]

They made a mockery of the npp when Yasir Arafat (sp) won it.


Truth.

[THEONE]

i would like to say total horse crap....that is all

[btstone]

yeah, i puked in my mouth a little when i saw he won it

[BobbyFresco]

I want to say I'm happy for him but I can't.
I don't think he's done enough, particularly at this early stage in the presidency, to merit winning such a prestigious award.

[bu villain]

I don't think he deserves it but for some reason I can't bring myself to care either way.

[.blank cd]

I dont know if you guys know this, but you dont have to be a president to win this award. And him being a president only has a small bit to do with why he won this award.

Congratulations, President Obama

[jhadleyh]

WHAT IN THE FUCK

[bigdare23]

Damn it seems like people from other countries have more faith in Obama than his own people. What a shame! It seems like everyone else is rooting for Obama to succeed, while (some) Americans are rooting for him to fail. *shakes head* I would of never thought he would of won the Noble Peace Prize this soon (or at all) in his campaign, but that goes to show you how majority of the world view our leader. I would have rather have a leader that other countries think highly of and willing to work with, then one that everyone hated (Bush).



P.S. Also to everyone that's bitching, he may have won based on lack of competition LOL

[81911SC]

I love how all the Obama dick suckers talk about how people should support Obama because he's our President however our last President was insulted everyday by nearly everyone. Hypocritical? I think so.

[.blank cd]

Damn it seems like people from other countries have more faith in Obama than his own people. What a shame! It seems like everyone else is rooting for Obama to succeed, while (some) Americans are rooting for him to fail. *shakes head* I would of never thought he would of won the Noble Peace Prize this soon (or at all) in his campaign, but that goes to show you how majority of the world view our leader. I would have rather have a leader that other countries think highly of and willing to work with, then one that everyone hated (Bush).



P.S. Also to everyone that's bitching, he may have won based on lack of competition LOLReps. This is why the Nobel Peace Prize isnt picked by Americans. Too much selfishness going on here. And by the way, if he wasnt picked this year, it would have definitely been next year.

[BobbyFresco]

I'm not an Obama hater by any means however, logic dictates that he should not have won. He didn't do anything significant leading up to the award nomination period because as I understand it, he wasn't in office but a few weeks prior. He hasn't done much in the way of peace keeping or humanitarianism since he has been in office.

Supporting the man is one thing but blind devotion is asinine.

[Vteckidd]

Damn it seems like people from other countries have more faith in Obama than his own people. What a shame! It seems like everyone else is rooting for Obama to succeed, while (some) Americans are rooting for him to fail. *shakes head* I would of never thought he would of won the Noble Peace Prize this soon (or at all) in his campaign, but that goes to show you how majority of the world view our leader. I would have rather have a leader that other countries think highly of and willing to work with, then one that everyone hated (Bush).



P.S. Also to everyone that's bitching, he may have won based on lack of competition LOL


This would be like taking a charismatic person like KIMBO Slice and making him Heavyweight champion of the world without ever fighting anyone.

This would be like me saying "I have a great idea for a book" and me winning the pulitizer prize before i wrote the book.

So now we give away Nobel Peace prizes to people that MIGHT do some good? That make the world feel all fuzzy and warm inside? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? They dont think HIGHLY OF HIM, they think hes a PUSSY! Look at Iran, they dont give a shit about whether it was Bush or Obama. Obama left them alone. NK, dont give a shit about obama, Europe has been apolagized to BY OBAMA. The UN he practically apolagized to everyone over what Bush did. WHAT HAS HE DONE, NAME IT RIGHT IT DOWN I WANT TO SEE IT. WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO? Healthcare nowhere near passing, afghanistan up in the air, iraq isnt over, gitmo still open, recession getting worse or staying stagnant........ I love the "its for things hes trying to achieve" but hes not trying to achieve anything, and theres no signs ANY of his policies are working at all.

But even so, he was president for 11 days when the noms were due. LOL 11 fucking days. What was he before that? A 2 year senator that has no record. WOW, great guy

Seriously some of you have to listen to yourselves type and reconsider what you are inferring.

Blank CD, next year when we have LOST the war in Afghanistan, Unemployment is over 10% and this recession is HIS BABY, i hope they take back the Nobel Award.

[.blank cd]

LOL at people thinking Presidency has anything to do with this Peace Prize award! You do NOT have to be a sitting US President to qualify. You do not even have to be in public office to qualify! Stop saying "Because he was only in office so many days before the nomination, that he does not qualify" That sounds like you havent read anything about the prize itself. Achievements do not have to be made, but progress must be underway, which it is. NOBODY is even taking into account his efforts for a nuclear weapons free world

Mike, your analogy on heavyweight championship title is FAR from accurate

[Vteckidd]

LOL at people thinking Presidency has anything to do with this Peace Prize award! You do NOT have to be a sitting US President to qualify. You do not even have to be in public office to qualify! Stop saying "Because he was only in office so many days before the nomination, that he does not qualify" That sounds like you havent read anything about the prize itself. Achievements do not have to be made, but progress must be underway, which it is. NOBODY is even taking into account his efforts for a nuclear weapons free world

Mike, your analogy on heavyweight championship title is FAR from accurate
Man you totally miss the presidency point. Of course you dont have to be a president to win, no one said you had to be.

BUT HE DID NOTHING BEFORE HIS PRESIDENCY TO WIN A NOBEL PIECE PRIZE, WHAT DID HE DID HE DO IN 11 DAYS THAT:


Achievements do not have to be made, but progress must be underway, which it is

Stop the rhetoric, Tell me what he did in 11 days that made him worthy of winning, or tell me what he did PRIOR to his presidency that made him worthy of winning.

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER.

What he did after FEB 1st is well known, ive already stated it, hes done nothing. Unemployment, worse, war in iraq, still going on , war in afghanistam, worse, healthcare, not passed i could go on and on and on.

SOMEONE thought he was worthy of being nominated. If he should have been nominated BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT why wasnt he considered in 2006,2007? He was running for office those 2 years so he didnt do anything legislative.

Waiting.............

[bigdare23]

P.S. Also to everyone that's bitching, he may have won based on lack of competition LOL

No one addressed this this point. Who was he going against? He may have just been the best of the bunch. Just say, what if he was the best of the bunch? Because you feel he isn't qualified or hasn't done much they should just skip this year? This year's competition may have been the equivalent to a flat chested wet t-shirt contest. Since you GOT to pick a winner, you pick the one with the nicest nipples. Everyone has an opinion. It's no different than last year's NBA MVP battle between Kobe and James. You can't make everyone happy, and that wasn't their goal. They pick WHO THEY FELT deserved it this year and it happened to be him. Do I feel like Obama is the next Mother Teresa? Not right now, but I do believe he is a breath of fresh air, and that other nations have the same view. That's alone is worth consideration when just about every other nation hated our last president. I look it like this. The judges voted, and he won so what! Now he has another monkey on his back to deal. That's just one more thing Obama haters can hate him for! :goodjob:

[.blank cd]

I know its hard for you to see what hes actually done, cause you're looking at this through tunnel vision, which is why you used the examples of helthcare and unemployment, which have nothing at all to do with the peace prize. So with those aside, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? Yeah I can admit they're both bullshit and should be stopped immediately, but you cant tell me the wheels are not turning in an effort to resolve and end both, plus nuclear disarmament? Didnt Ahmadenijad agree to discuss enriching nuclear power for the purpose of weapons? You cant say he hasnt set in motion ANY kind of plans for diplomacy.

Lets take a well known NPP winner, for example, Martin Luther King Jr. Obviously he won for his work to end racial segregation and discrimination. Was there still segregation going on after he won the prize? Of course. Was there discrimination going on after he won the prize? Still going on today. But you can't sit here and say he didn't set the wheels in motion for the plans to end both

[bigdare23]

11 days

:eek: Damn he won the noble peace prize in 11 days. This man must be great then, everyone should love him then since no other man/woman has done that before :D



Naw, they may have looked at everything during that 11 day period, the things he was doing few months after he won the election (when Bush was still in office), the whole time he was traveling during his campaign, and the stuff he has done before that. Never know.

I'm done with this thread because it's going to turn into another "I hate Obama", "Obama is fucking everything up " thread like every other in the Politics section. Shit, IA might as well change the Politics section to Bash Obama section. Have fun guys :D

[.blank cd]

Also another tidbit of information. The nominations are in by Feb 1st. The committee still has to review them up until September. So its not what he did in the first 11 days, its what hes done up until last month.

[Vteckidd]

Still no specifics from the obama lovers

that's what I thought. You can't argue with people that follow someone blindly.

[Vteckidd]

Breath of fresh air lololololol

he hasn't done anything! Everything bush did Obama has done from wars to bailouts spending etc.

So funny

[.blank cd]

ATTN: NAYSAYERS

Feel free to list a candidate for 2009 who has done MORE than Obama, or who you feel has done MORE to merit winning such an award

[Browning151]

ATTN: NAYSAYERS

Feel free to list a candidate for 2009 who has done MORE than Obama, or who you feel has done MORE to merit winning such an award

As described in Nobel's will, one part was dedicated to "the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses". http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/shortfacts.html

So you honestly think that out of a RECORD 205 nominees, 172 individuals and 33 organizations, that no one person or organization has done more than Obama to promote peace?

Let's set aside the fact that he is President, don't even take that into account, what has the junior senator, the "community organizer" done to promote peace at any point in his life? Name just one major accomplishment that he has made, just one.

[Browning151]

No one addressed this this point. Who was he going against? He may have just been the best of the bunch. Just say, what if he was the best of the bunch? Because you feel he isn't qualified or hasn't done much they should just skip this year?


Actually, yes. If that was the case and it was felt that he was "the best of the bunch" and yet still not qualified, as has been in the past, that is exactly what they do.



Number of Nobel Peace Prizes

89 Nobel Peace Prizes have been awarded since 1901. It was not awarded on 19 occasions: in 1914-1918, 1923, 1924, 1928, 1932, 1939- 1943, 1948, 1955-1956, 1966-1967 and 1972.

Why were the Prizes not awarded in those years? In the statutes of the Nobel Foundation it says: "If none of the works under consideration is found to be of the importance indicated in the first paragraph, the prize money shall be reserved until the following year. If, even then, the prize cannot be awarded, the amount shall be added to the Foundation's restricted funds." During World War I and II, no prizes were awarded.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/shortfacts.html

[tony]

My thing is people are acting like he sought the award...

[tony]

LOL at people thinking Presidency has anything to do with this Peace Prize award! You do NOT have to be a sitting US President to qualify. You do not even have to be in public office to qualify! Stop saying "Because he was only in office so many days before the nomination, that he does not qualify" That sounds like you havent read anything about the prize itself. Achievements do not have to be made, but progress must be underway, which it is. NOBODY is even taking into account his efforts for a nuclear weapons free world

Mike, your analogy on heavyweight championship title is FAR from accurate

Heres the thing, everyone who is so critical of Obama and what he has or hasn't done seem to dwindle the fact that NOBODY has done what the man has done.. not one person. To his critics he's done nothing but in reality he's made history. I praised H.W Bush for being the first and only President to have an MBA, the man is very intelligent even though many claim him to be an idiot. Obama has done some pretty amazing things considering his upbringing, his story is quite inspiring to those who have similar backgrounds.

Now this award is pre-emptive I will say that and it would have been better to wait.. but nonetheless he won and a simple 'congratulations' is not asking too much.

[Vteckidd]

ATTN: NAYSAYERS

Feel free to list a candidate for 2009 who has done MORE than Obama, or who you feel has done MORE to merit winning such an award

The Committee keeps the nominations secret and asks that nominators do the same. We wont know the nominees for some time he was up against.

But these people i feel deserved it more than him:

The Iranian people for rising up against their leadership and peacefully protested and were unfairly attacked.

The people in the Darfur Genocide

There are plenty of other people out there. Obama was not at fault for winning i never said he was. I just said he didnt deserve it

[.blank cd]

Heres the thing, everyone who is so critical of Obama and what he has or hasn't done seem to dwindle the fact that NOBODY has done what the man has done.. not one person. To his critics he's done nothing but in reality he's made history. I praised H.W Bush for being the first and only President to have an MBA, the man is very intelligent even though many claim him to be an idiot. Obama has done some pretty amazing things considering his upbringing, his story is quite inspiring to those who have similar backgrounds.

Now this award is pre-emptive I will say that and it would have been better to wait.. but nonetheless he won and a simple 'congratulations' is not asking too much.This is what im trying to say, and people just arent getting it.

[green91]

This is what im trying to say, and people just arent getting it.

No, you keep reminding us that Obama's presidency has nothing to do with him winning the prize. Obama campaigned many of the same ideals on how to handle the war as other candidates.. but within the time frame of the nomination there was no possible way they could even be enacted. Obama did very little/nothing prior to the presidency to merit the award. So basically by your conclusion anybody who won the presidency by campaigning about ending the wars would be equally as entitled to winning as Obama.

The fact is that I have a hard time believing that Obama was the best candidate for the award, at least this year. Obama has made history and etc etc but none of this has anything to do with the qualifications for nomination for this award. Its tiring to see so many nutswingers latching on and backing him no matter how obsurd the reason or stretch.

[tony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJuEOaF84o

A lot I didn't actually know in that video, think it addresses a lot of the concerns here.. but I'm sure even still there will be some kind of argument for arguments sake.

[eraser4g63]

He deserved it like a child deserves to be molested, what a god damn joke.

[Vteckidd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJuEOaF84o

A lot I didn't actually know in that video, think it addresses a lot of the concerns here.. but I'm sure even still there will be some kind of argument for arguments sake.

Obama has done nothing to further peace. Those news clips are what a bunch of speeches he gave. Great , WHAT HAS HE DONE. NOTHING.

People are hiding behind this "oh the peace prize can go to people putting EFFORT forward"

IMO he hasnt done anything but apolagize for the George BUsh

[.blank cd]

Green, You're twisting my words. Thank you for playing.

Tony, thank you for posting that video. Perfect explanation

[Vteckidd]

Keep drinking the kool aid

[Vteckidd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QlBydA5mpo&feature=related

[.blank cd]

Laura Ingrams an idiot. For once in my life I actually somewhat agree with Bill O'Riley

[Tracy]

My thing is people are acting like he sought the award...That's what I was thinking. He didn't ask for it and he seemed surprised himself that he won.

He also didn't ruin the US during his presidency ("yet" or whatever someone is bound to say). It hasn't been long enough for him to ruin all 200 years of the US since January. He has just been assigned the task of trying to clean it all up. YES, that is his job and it is a fucking hard one and NO I don't agree with everything, but I do agree with the notion. Not that it helps much. I'd love to see y'all have his position and the choices you would make. ANYONE would be hard pressed to do good a job given our state of affairs at this point.

[Browning151]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJuEOaF84o

A lot I didn't actually know in that video, think it addresses a lot of the concerns here.. but I'm sure even still there will be some kind of argument for arguments sake.

Call it an argument for arguments sake if you will, but Obama derangement syndrome? Sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. Let's recap the main accomplishments that Rachel Maddow cites for him to be deserving the award.

1) He persuaded the people of this nation to believe in his vision of strength through diplomacy enough to elect him as a president, since when did winning an election become grounds to recieve a Nobel Peace Prize?

2) He persuaded the people of this nation, the holder of the largest nuclear stockpile in the world, that the next president should try to abolish nuclear weapons worldwide. So he persuaded the people of the US to believe this, and what about the rest of the world? Iran continues to strengthen its nuclear program and blatantly flaunts that it is doing so now with missile testing. North Korea has tested nuclear weapons as well as long range ballistic missiles? What did Obama have to say about either of these? He recently demanded access to Irans recently discovered nuclear facility, other than that I haven't heard much more.

3) He decided that the most powerful nation on Earth would try again to work with other countries through international institutions. From what I have seen he has done nothing more than apologize for us, bow to muslim leaders and pander to anyone that he can find to pander to.

4) He declared that we would close our secret prisons, Gitmo and we would no longer support a policy of torture. What kind of message does this really send to terrorist groups? To me it says weakness, it sends a message that we will more than likely back down from terrorists rather than fight back. That, however, is a personal opinion, not fact.

While all of these are noble ideals, and things that may very well make the world a better place I fail to see what he was/is actually doing to accomplish these things other than making speeches and persuading people of his vision. The Nobel Prize is often awarded on grounds of things that are currently being done, but not yet completed, which is fine but I don't see what he has actually done to set these things in motion. At the end of the day, none of this actually has an effect on any of our lives, I just feel like there was someone or some organization who has accomplished more in the way of promoting peace other than speeches and persuasion to believe in someones ideals. :2cents:

[.blank cd]

The Nobel Prize is often awarded on grounds of things that are currently being done, but not yet completed, which is fine but I don't see what he has actually done to set these things in motion. At the end of the day, none of this actually has an effect on any of our lives, I just feel like there was someone or some organization who has accomplished more in the way of promoting peace other than speeches and persuasion to believe in someones ideals. :2cents:THIS JUST IN: The following Nobel Peace Prizes will be renounced Monday due to the fact that they were only based on speeches and persuasion to believe in someones ideals:

Barack Obama
Martin Luther King Jr.
Desmond Tutu
Al Gore

Oh. Wait. Just take em all back

[green91]

That's what I was thinking. He didn't ask for it and he seemed surprised himself that he won.

He also didn't ruin the US during his presidency ("yet" or whatever someone is bound to say). It hasn't been long enough for him to ruin all 200 years of the US since January. He has just been assigned the task of trying to clean it all up. YES, that is his job and it is a fucking hard one and NO I don't agree with everything, but I do agree with the notion. Not that it helps much. I'd love to see y'all have his position and the choices you would make. ANYONE would be hard pressed to do good a job given our state of affairs at this point.

Nobody is questioning the task and mess that Obama inherited with the presidency. Even though Im not an Obama supporter i can definitely respect the shitstorm he walked in to. Thats not in question. What is in question is what he has done to actually EARN the Nobel Peace Prize.. and honestly I just cant see how it was justified.

[Vteckidd]

THIS JUST IN: The following Nobel Peace Prizes will be renounced Monday due to the fact that they were only based on speeches and persuasion to believe in someones ideals:

Barack Obama
Martin Luther King Jr.
Desmond Tutu
Al Gore

Oh. Wait. Just take em all back

MLK really? Just gave speeches?

Al Gore, i didnt agree with him winning either, but he was at least an advocate with a LONG RESUME with YEARS of service

[.blank cd]

Nobody is questioning the task and mess that Obama inherited with the presidency. Even though Im not an Obama supporter i can definitely respect the shitstorm he walked in to. Thats not in question. What is in question is what he has done to actually EARN the Nobel Peace Prize.. and honestly I just cant see how it was justified.
We know you guys dont get how he EARNED it. Cause You're only looking at the peace prize two dimensionally. By your logic, none of the laureates have EARNED it. It is a SYMBOL that recognizes EFFORT, not ACHIEVEMENTS.

[.blank cd]

MLK really? Just gave speeches?

Al Gore, i didnt agree with him winning either, but he was at least an advocate with a LONG RESUME with YEARS of service
Yes. He gave speeches and persuaded people to believe in his ideals. This is why he won the award

[Vteckidd]

Yes. He gave speeches and persuaded people to believe in his ideals. This is why he won the award

YOU FAIL SO BAD

Martin Luther King, Jr. (January 15, 1929 – April 4, 1968) was an American clergyman, activist and prominent leader in the African-American civil rights movement. His main legacy was to secure progress on civil rights in the United States and he is frequently referenced as a human rights icon today. King is recognized as a martyr by two Christian churches. [1] A Baptist minister,[2] King became a civil rights activist early in his career. He led the 1955 Montgomery Bus Boycott and helped found the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in 1957, serving as its first president. King's efforts led to the 1963 March on Washington, where King delivered his "I Have a Dream" speech. There, he raised public consciousness of the civil rights movement and established himself as one of the greatest orators in U.S. history.

In 1964, King became the youngest person to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for his work to end racial segregation and racial discrimination through civil disobedience and other non-violent means. By the time of his death in 1968, he had refocused his efforts on ending poverty and opposing the Vietnam War, both from a religious perspective. King was assassinated on April 4, 1968, in Memphis, Tennessee. He was posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977 and Congressional Gold Medal in 2004; Martin Luther King, Jr. Day was established as a U.S. national holiday in 1986.

[.blank cd]

Mike, whats your point? LOL, that he didnt persuade people to believe in his ideals? Dont debate MLK with me because you will fail. Horribly

[Vteckidd]

please COMPARE

Obama previously served as the junior United States Senator from Illinois from January 2005 until he resigned after his election to the presidency in November 2008.

Obama is a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he was the president of the Harvard Law Review. He was a community organizer in Chicago before earning his law degree. He worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004.

Obama served three terms in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. Following an unsuccessful bid for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000, Obama ran for United States Senate in 2004. His victory in the March 2004 Democratic primary election for the United States Senator from Illinois brought him to national attention. His prime-time televised keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004 made him a rising star nationally in the Democratic Party. He comfortably won election to the U.S. Senate in November 2004.

He began his run for the presidency in February 2007. After a close campaign in the 2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries against Hillary Clinton, he won his party's nomination. In the 2008 general election, he defeated Republican nominee John McCain and was inaugurated as president on January 20, 2009. On October 9, 2009 Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize

[Vteckidd]

Mike, whats your point? LOL, that he didnt persuade people to believe in his ideals? Dont debate MLK with me because you will fail. Horribly

If you cant see that he was much more than an orator, then you have no clue what you are talking about.

Besides being a reverend, a martyr, and activist, etc.

[Browning151]

THIS JUST IN: The following Nobel Peace Prizes will be renounced Monday due to the fact that they were only based on speeches and persuasion to believe in someones ideals:

Barack Obama
Martin Luther King Jr.
Desmond Tutu
Al Gore

Oh. Wait. Just take em all back

My point was not that he should never get the award, just that he should have a little more showing of acheivement of actually making things happen before he was awarded such a prize i.e. next year given some of the things he stands for were actually in motion and making changes it would have been more fitting.

[BanginJimmy]

That's what I was thinking. He didn't ask for it and he seemed surprised himself that he won.

He also didn't ruin the US during his presidency ("yet" or whatever someone is bound to say). It hasn't been long enough for him to ruin all 200 years of the US since January. He has just been assigned the task of trying to clean it all up. YES, that is his job and it is a fucking hard one and NO I don't agree with everything, but I do agree with the notion. Not that it helps much. I'd love to see y'all have his position and the choices you would make. ANYONE would be hard pressed to do good a job given our state of affairs at this point.

Come on now Tracy. Each and every major policy he wants to force through congress will obviously hurt the US.

Cap and trade will kill the manufacturing industry in the US. Even a corporation like Lockheed is already sending more and more work overseas to avoid some of the environmental regulations. That same bill will also, at least, double energy costs and make everything we buy more expensive. This includes the costs for in home utilities.

Healthcare will lower the standard of care in the US, no one can make even a half way reasonable argument otherwise. You can listen to any politician you want, but in the end, nothing in any bill in congress will lower costs AND even keep the levels of care the same, nor will they cover even half of the citizens that are currently uncovered. What those plans will do is cause employers to cut jobs to pay the fines imposed. Personal choice is no longer relevant either. More fines to pay if you feel the risk is worth the reward.

Diplomacy under Obama is nothing more than appeasement. All he does when he is overseas is bash America. Look at the people that are praising him, then look at the ones warning him of the effects of his politics. He has done nothing to prevent additional attacks on our soil or any of our other possessions. If anything, he has damaged our ability to counter these attacks.


Obama's politics and the way he is pushing his agenda will kill the American economy. Dems from solidly democrat districts have completely ignored public opinion, they simply say it is racist conservatives. Everything that isnt going well, blame Bush, yet every prediction made by this administration has been horribly wrong. How much longer are people going to allow him to use the blame Bush defense? Even the 1.4 TRILLION dollar budget deficit is being blamed on Bush when we can look at just 2 pieces of legislation signed by Obama that are worth more than 1.2T in money we dont have.

[.blank cd]

If you cant see that he was much more than an orator, then you have no clue what you are talking about.

Besides being a reverend, a martyr, and activist, etc.I know EXACTLY what MLK did. I said he made speeches and persuaded people to believe in his ideals. Was I wrong? did he not do that?

[tony]

ANYONE would be hard pressed to do good a job given our state of affairs at this point.

That is what I'm saying. I have friends that are liberal that were harshly critical of Bush but I had to explain to them that they dont have to walk in that mans shoes, its so easy to point the finger and say what they should do but when you're actually there its a totally different story.

[green91]

We know you guys dont get how he EARNED it. Cause You're only looking at the peace prize two dimensionally. By your logic, none of the laureates have EARNED it. It is a SYMBOL that recognizes EFFORT, not ACHIEVEMENTS.

I'm not seeing the effort from Mr Obama that was Nobel Peace Prize worthy.

[Browning151]

I know EXACTLY what MLK did. I said he made speeches and persuaded people to believe in his ideals. Was I wrong? did he not do that?

Yes, he did that along with much, much more than just speeches.

[.blank cd]

Yes, he did that along with much, much more than just speeches.Would I be safe in saying that his marches and sit-ins would be persuading people to believe in his ideals? or is that totally off base?

[bonezMTA]

He got a Nobel Peace Prize award for calling Kanye West a Jackass? lol JK He's having a hard time being Pres. but he is also not doing what he said he would do

[Browning151]

Would I be safe in saying that his marches and sit-ins would be persuading people to believe in his ideals? or is that totally off base?

Yes, those do persuade people to believe in his ideals, however is that not more than a speech? That is taking action, making a difference and forcing things to change. Up until this point Obama has only made the speeches, which is why I said I believe that next year would have been more fitting.

[tony]

I just wonder how many of you watch CSpan and the hearings they display on a regular basis? I just see this.. "Well I havent seen this, I havent seen that," well change the channel from Fox News and you might.

Do you listen to his weekly addresses?

Do you follow whitehouse.gov?

No because that would be drinking the kool aid I'm sure. lol This whole thing is funny to me.

[.blank cd]

Yes, those do persuade people to believe in his ideals, however is that not more than a speech? That is taking action, making a difference and forcing things to change. Up until this point Obama has only made the speeches, which is why I said I believe that next year would have been more fitting.Well thats fine. Like I said before, If it wasnt this year, It would have been next year for sure. Im just saying to the people who say "He doesnt deserve it" or "It makes a mockery of the whole NPP" to stop watching Glenn Beck, stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and look at the bigger picture here

[tony]

Would I be safe in saying that his marches and sit-ins would be persuading people to believe in his ideals? or is that totally off base?

The marches and sit ins were a way of motivating people but the speeches that MLK gave was his strong point. If we're comparing the two and their influence then Obama is very much so on par with MLK. You must understand that MLK saw much of the same scrutiny that Obama sees today, MLK was labeled a socialist, communist, and a marxist because he preached equality when that was frowned upon.. he was not so revered until after his death.

You can sit here and say MLK did much more than speeches but really what he did was engage those who opposed his ideals and inspired those who supported them which is what Obama does, this is why you hear the term "Direct Diplomacy" and the "Fierce urgency of now," these are terms MLK used and that is how he carried out his agenda.

[Browning151]

Well thats fine. Like I said before, If it wasnt this year, It would have been next year for sure. Im just saying to the people who say "He doesnt deserve it" or "It makes a mockery of the whole NPP" to stop watching Glenn Beck, stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and look at the bigger picture here

Reps for actually having a discussion about it. Even though they dont count for anything, lol.

[.blank cd]

The marches and sit ins were a way of motivating people but the speeches that MLK gave was his strong point. If we're comparing the two and their influence then Obama is very much so on par with MLK. You must understand that MLK saw much of the same scrutiny that Obama sees today, MLK was labeled a socialist, communist, and a marxist because he preached equality when that was frowned upon.. he was not so revered until after his death.

You can sit here and say MLK did much more than speeches but really what he did was engage those who opposed his ideals and inspired those who supported them which is what Obama does, this is why you hear the term "Direct Diplomacy" and the "Fierce urgency of now," these are terms MLK used and that is how he carried out his agenda.I agree with this post 101%

[.blank cd]

Reps for actually having a discussion about it. Even though they dont count for anything, lol.back atcha

[green91]

MLK Was actually a catalyst for change and took a stance when it was dangerous to do so. Obama has done nothing revolutionary (as far as his ideals / stance). To compare the two is apples / oranges

[.blank cd]

MLK Was actually a catalyst for change and took a stance when it was dangerous to do so. Obama has done nothing revolutionary (as far as his ideals / stance). To compare the two is apples / orangesNegative. Maybe Obamas change wont be exactly on par with what MLK did, but both are apples. You're saying this because you have SEEN the change that MLK set in motion. It is happening RIGHT NOW. Maybe Obama's change hasnt exactly happend yet, but you CAN NOT say he isnt a catalyst. Im still challenging those who think otherwise to name ONE PERSON who would be more qualified to receive such a prize.

[bonezMTA]

Negative. Maybe Obamas change wont be exactly on par with what MLK did, but both are apples. You're saying this because you have SEEN the change that MLK set in motion. It is happening RIGHT NOW. Maybe Obama's change hasnt exactly happend yet, but you CAN NOT say he isnt a catalyst. Im still challenging those who think otherwise to name ONE PERSON who would be more qualified to receive such a prize.


BiLL GATES FOR ALL HE HAS DONE LOL U SAID NAME ONE PERSON

[tony]

MLK Was actually a catalyst for change and took a stance when it was dangerous to do so. Obama has done nothing revolutionary (as far as his ideals / stance). To compare the two is apples / oranges

What revolutionary position was there to take at this point? Other than support for gay rights which Obama is doing currently the conditions don't require anything revolutionary.. although diplomacy is pretty close when the previous 8 years we would not engage those who opposed us.

[BanginJimmy]

I just wonder how many of you watch CSpan and the hearings they display on a regular basis? I just see this.. "Well I havent seen this, I havent seen that," well change the channel from Fox News and you might.

Do you listen to his weekly addresses?

Do you follow whitehouse.gov?

No because that would be drinking the kool aid I'm sure. lol This whole thing is funny to me.

Considering both sides of the political aisle lie on a regular basis, CSPAN, weekly addresses, and whitehouse.gov are all useless. Obama has been caught in lies on so many occasions that I wouldnt even believe him if he told me the was POTUS.

I would like to say I believe non-partisan groups such as the CBO, but politicians have shown that their numbers can be skewed by the way a bill is written. The healthcare bill is one of those. The CBO numbers start from the day the bill is law, it doesnt take into account the fact that the bill doesnt take effect until 2014 and the true costs of it will not really start to be seen until 2016 or 2017.

[BanginJimmy]

What revolutionary position was there to take at this point? Other than support for gay rights which Obama is doing currently the conditions don't require anything revolutionary..

Continuing the fight against terrorism and nuke treaties for 1. Instead he has chosen appeasement to our enemies and the UN.




although diplomacy is pretty close when the previous 8 years we would not engage those who opposed us.

Who did we not engage that the previous administration did? I cant think of anyone.

[tony]

Continuing the fight against terrorism and nuke treaties for 1. Instead he has chosen appeasement to our enemies and the UN.





Who did we not engage that the previous administration did? I cant think of anyone.

We wouldn't address Iran, Palestine received the cold shoulder while Israel always had our support. We didn't engage Iraq and overlooked the fact that Pakistan holds many of the people that we went looking for in Iraq in Afghanistan. When I say engage I mean diplomacy, not this far right definition of diplomacy that many of you call appeasement.

To bring the analogy of MLK back, one of his harshest critics (Malcolm X) called his methods appeasement too... its all in the eye of the beholder. Malcolm changed his tune after completing his pilgrimage to Mecca.

[tony]

Considering both sides of the political aisle lie on a regular basis, CSPAN, weekly addresses, and whitehouse.gov are all useless. Obama has been caught in lies on so many occasions that I wouldnt even believe him if he told me the was POTUS.

I would like to say I believe non-partisan groups such as the CBO, but politicians have shown that their numbers can be skewed by the way a bill is written. The healthcare bill is one of those. The CBO numbers start from the day the bill is law, it doesnt take into account the fact that the bill doesnt take effect until 2014 and the true costs of it will not really start to be seen until 2016 or 2017.

See, I give you sources and they're all useless. Does it have to be skewed to the right to be useful? I guess the BBC is useless too?

[Tracy]

Come on now Tracy. Each and every major policy he wants to force through congress will obviously hurt the US.

Cap and trade will kill the manufacturing industry in the US. Even a corporation like Lockheed is already sending more and more work overseas to avoid some of the environmental regulations. That same bill will also, at least, double energy costs and make everything we buy more expensive. This includes the costs for in home utilities.

Healthcare will lower the standard of care in the US, no one can make even a half way reasonable argument otherwise. You can listen to any politician you want, but in the end, nothing in any bill in congress will lower costs AND even keep the levels of care the same, nor will they cover even half of the citizens that are currently uncovered. What those plans will do is cause employers to cut jobs to pay the fines imposed. Personal choice is no longer relevant either. More fines to pay if you feel the risk is worth the reward.

Diplomacy under Obama is nothing more than appeasement. All he does when he is overseas is bash America. Look at the people that are praising him, then look at the ones warning him of the effects of his politics. He has done nothing to prevent additional attacks on our soil or any of our other possessions. If anything, he has damaged our ability to counter these attacks.


Obama's politics and the way he is pushing his agenda will kill the American economy. Dems from solidly democrat districts have completely ignored public opinion, they simply say it is racist conservatives. Everything that isnt going well, blame Bush, yet every prediction made by this administration has been horribly wrong. How much longer are people going to allow him to use the blame Bush defense? Even the 1.4 TRILLION dollar budget deficit is being blamed on Bush when we can look at just 2 pieces of legislation signed by Obama that are worth more than 1.2T in money we dont have.

Um. Apparently whoever did whatever up until January did their fair share to ruin our economy. Like I said, I don't agree with everything, but I agree that some things have to change—radically. Do you? Or are you fine with our state right now? Remember, Obama didn't get us here (so leave that alone while you answer this), so are you fine with our state of affairs even if you don't agree with any of the proposals?

Lockheed is sending more work overseas also because they aren't going to be building the F22's anymore for the US. It makes common sense that they will seek out business else where. Should we keep building F22's so they won't take their business elsewhere? I mean, we need to cut the budget don't we? Those things are expensive. I don't know enough on the trade subject to interject anymore. I only know abut the F22's because we have tons of customers who work there.

I think it's awesome that we are now looking for water on the moon. I wonder if it's because we have fucked our environment up so bad. I guess we should just carry on ruining our plant too while we are at it. Fuck our kids and grandkids. Let's live in the now. Let's not address anything enbironmental so we don't have to send jobs over seas.

Not sure if you remember, but we had the health care thread already, in which I joined. I don't agree with each point, but I doubt I would agree with each point ANYONE provided. We are a vast country with a lot of levels. ANYONE is going to be hard pressed to please everyone. I am pretty sure that most of us in that thread decided there had to be some type of change. You think you just walk up to the drawing board of any project, write one or two ideas down, then say DONE! No, every plan, design, agreement goes through stages and refinements and approval processes. That's just the nature of things and THEN still SOMEONE is going to bitch.

So when it comes to these attacks on our soil, have we had one since January? How do you come to these conclusions? You just guess? I'm am being for real and not condescending. Honestly, if you were to ask me, I think making friends with other countries is a good thing. I make enemies all of the time—with what I say and how I act and a lot of the time it's not intentional. A lot of people don't like me just because they have heard about me. Sound familiar? Most of the time, at some point, I decide it's just not worth the tension since I have to see these people out. It's more worth it for me to call them up, apologize and be the mature one in the situation—even if I feel what I did wasn't wrong. It seems to work. Of course some people shake my hand then go behind my back and slam me or try to ruin me, but thats just part of being secure and strong—and jealousy is a bitch. That's just human nature.

Either way, I'm glad you are psychic :) It's good to know that someone here knows what all of these plans will do to our country in the long run. You should run for office and make that your platform. "I am psychic. I can already tell what policies will work and which ones won't. So vote for me! I have it all figured out." While you're at it, can you pick next weeks lottery #'s for me?


p.s. I don't watch any of this shit on the news. Fuck the news. It's ALL a fucking biased lie. We will never know what really goes on because everything is filtered and translated. It's just like the fucking Bible!!!!! I just use my common sense to entertain these arguments based on what ya'll say. I use daily scenarios to help it all make sense, not quotes from Talk Radio or CNN. So don't go asking me which channel I get my info from. I get all of my info here, because in the long run, I know I'm not going to be able to do anything to make a change. ALL GOVERNMENTS are corrupt :) Especially ours.




On the topic of the Nobel Peace Prize. Maybe he didn't deserve it, but he didn't ask for it. That's all I was saying.

[Vteckidd]

IMO of course:

The economy was on a downward spiral because of 80% Democrats in power fault, 20% George W. Bush fault.

Dems Fault:
They ENCOURAGED and pretty much made it mandatory to give loans to people that didnt qualify otherwise. They pressured banks to borrow from Freddie/Fannie to give these loans out under the Community Re-investment Act. Barney Frank, Dodd, others were the cultivators of this problem.

Bushs Fault: He artificially kept interest rates low through the FED after 9/11 to fight off a recession back then and to help spur lending. WHy would you take a loan if interest rates were so low. That created the frenzy that the dems took advantage of.


Thats it, thats simple and to the point. Bush however IMO was trying to keep the economy thriving and lets face it under him we saw TREMENDOUS prosperity. Dow over 14,000, all time LOW unemployment, huge boom in small business, but people want to forget all that. Like the last 5 months of his presidency defines the economy the entire 8 years he was in office. Remember he had Katrina and 9/11 to deal with , to huge domestic disasters that Clinton NEVER had to deal with.

Now that thats taken care of, Obama didnt ask to win this award, its not his fault. THAT IS NOT THE ARGUMENT. All im saying is he hasnt done anything to deserve it, and there is no great "movement" or "progress" that is worthy of his nomination. This was simply a slap in the face to Bush, and they gave it to Obama for being a great charismatic person.

Give it a year, when his approval ratings are under 40% we will see where we stand.

[Tracy]

IMO of course:

The economy was on a downward spiral because of 80% Democrats in power fault, 20% George W. Bush fault.

Dems Fault:
They ENCOURAGED and pretty much made it mandatory to give loans to people that didnt qualify otherwise. They pressured banks to borrow from Freddie/Fannie to give these loans out under the Community Re-investment Act. Barney Frank, Dodd, others were the cultivators of this problem.

Bushs Fault: He artificially kept interest rates low through the FED after 9/11 to fight off a recession back then and to help spur lending. WHy would you take a loan if interest rates were so low. That created the frenzy that the dems took advantage of.


Thats it, thats simple and to the point. Bush however IMO was trying to keep the economy thriving and lets face it under him we saw TREMENDOUS prosperity. Dow over 14,000, all time LOW unemployment, huge boom in small business, but people want to forget all that. Like the last 5 months of his presidency defines the economy the entire 8 years he was in office. Remember he had Katrina and 9/11 to deal with , to huge domestic disasters that Clinton NEVER had to deal with.

Now that thats taken care of, Obama didnt ask to win this award, its not his fault. THAT IS NOT THE ARGUMENT. All im saying is he hasnt done anything to deserve it, and there is no great "movement" or "progress" that is worthy of his nomination. This was simply a slap in the face to Bush, and they gave it to Obama for being a great charismatic person.

Give it a year, when his approval ratings are under 40% we will see where we stand.

Tremendous prosperity that just happened to go downward pretty much the day he was leaving office? Iono about all that. Seems like a scam if you ask me. It's like this: I am running a business but don't own it. I am just the boss for a while. So, I do a lot of stuff behind the scenes that just ain't right, but makes everyone money so no one really says anything (kind of like Enron?). So, just about retiring time for me, everything starts to go to shit because I'm not upholding or feeding the scam anymore. I'm going to collect my check, my retirement and dip out very soon, so my work/scam is done. In the meanwhile, I made MYSELF and my family and friends a lot of money and they are all getting ready to dip right along with me so who cares what happens next and for the new boos. That's his problem, right?

I have no side. To me all politics and gov't are dirty ass mother fuckers.

[tony]

Give it a year, when his approval ratings are under 40% we will see where we stand.

That for some reason just sounds more like wishful thinking than premonition, I guess I tend to wonder where someone is at in their life to wish for another persons failure.. no offense to you Mike. Even when I disagreed with Bush I certainly wished for success overseas and an uptick in our economy under his plan, it'd be nice for someone to figure these dilemas out even if the path isn't one i could foresee.

[Vteckidd]

That for some reason just sounds more like wishful thinking than premonition, I guess I tend to wonder where someone is at in their life to wish for another persons failure.. no offense to you Mike. Even when I disagreed with Bush I certainly wished for success overseas and an uptick in our economy under his plan, it'd be nice for someone to figure these dilemas out even if the path isn't one i could foresee.

LOL missed the point again.

Can you not see the handwriting on the wall. His approval ratings have dropped 20 points in 9 months. WHY? Dont tell me its because people WISH him to fail or WANT him to fail.

Its because people dont trust what he is doing. Unemployment is still climbing despite his promise it wouldnt. The economy is still struggling even though he said STIM 1 would rescue us. Healthcare is nowhere near done even though he said "BY SEPTEMBER " we would have a vote.

Everything he has promised has NOT BEEN DONE. Thats lack of confidence in your leaders, plain and simple.

QUOTE ME NOW

This time next year his approval ratings will be BELOW 45% as unemployment climbs and the economy drags on. ESPECIALLY if he gets his wish with healthcare

Im not wishing for his failure, i just know its coming

[Vteckidd]

Tremendous prosperity that just happened to go downward pretty much the day he was leaving office? Iono about all that. Seems like a scam if you ask me. It's like this: I am running a business but don't own it. I am just the boss for a while. So, I do a lot of stuff behind the scenes that just ain't right, but makes everyone money so no one really says anything (kind of like Enron?). So, just about retiring time for me, everything starts to go to shit because I'm not upholding or feeding the scam anymore. I'm going to collect my check, my retirement and dip out very soon, so my work/scam is done. In the meanwhile, I made MYSELF and my family and friends a lot of money and they are all getting ready to dip right along with me so who cares what happens next and for the new boos. That's his problem, right?

I have no side. To me all politics and gov't are dirty ass mother fuckers.


I see what you are saying, and there is some truth to that, but it wasnt all his fault.

It was false prosperity absolutely

[tony]

LOL missed the point again.

Can you not see the handwriting on the wall. His approval ratings have dropped 20 points in 9 months. WHY? Dont tell me its because people WISH him to fail or WANT him to fail.

Its because people dont trust what he is doing. Unemployment is still climbing despite his promise it wouldnt. The economy is still struggling even though he said STIM 1 would rescue us. Healthcare is nowhere near done even though he said "BY SEPTEMBER " we would have a vote.

Everything he has promised has NOT BEEN DONE. Thats lack of confidence in your leaders, plain and simple.

QUOTE ME NOW

This time next year his approval ratings will be BELOW 45% as unemployment climbs and the economy drags on. ESPECIALLY if he gets his wish with healthcare

Im not wishing for his failure, i just know its coming

Show me a president that maintained their approval rating for a year, it doesn't happen especially when you're starting at 70%. If 53% is lack of confidence (where Obama is at now) then what is the 32% that Bush had? Absolute disdain? As it was said before, you're not going to satisfy everyone and honestly, the only ratings that matter to me are the results of that election in November every 4 years. The pushback on health reform is reason enough for me not to care about public opinion.

Even if he was still at 70% im sure you'd be saying its his celebrity status and nothing to do with his presidency so this approval rating discussion is moot.

[Tracy]

I see what you are saying, and there is some truth to that, but it wasnt all his fault.

It was false prosperity absolutely
It's never going to be just one person's fault because that would be a dictatorship and I understand that. Just like it won't all just be Obama's fault. Our gov't is supposed to work on checks and balances, by definition not making it all one person's fault. Obama can't just make all the rules and laws alone—supposedly and based on how our gov't was set up. He has to go through a process that involves voters, cabinet, house senate, etc. In reality, I think the way receive information is the real issue.

[BanginJimmy]

The pushback on health reform is reason enough for me not to care about public opinion.

So you believe it is Congress's job to push their agenda no matter what their constituency says? That does sound a lot like the dems way of passing this healthcare bill.


Even if he was still at 70% im sure you'd be saying its his celebrity status and nothing to do with his presidency so this approval rating discussion is moot.

I agree and disagree. First off, polls are all biased. If MSNBC does a poll, they will concentrate their poll in liberal areas. FOX does the opposite. They will poll primarily conservative areas. Secondly, going back to those polls, alot of people are saying they dont agree with his policies, but do approve of him. How is that even possible?

[BanginJimmy]

In reality, I think the way receive information is the real issue.

I agree. All politicians receive their info from biased staffers. Then, as you saw in the stimulus bill, they dont even read the legislation they are voting on.

[tony]

So you believe it is Congress's job to push their agenda no matter what their constituency says? That does sound a lot like the dems way of passing this healthcare bill.




I believe the majority do not always know what is in their best interest, case and point the fact that there was similar pushback on segregation.. or for women to have the right to vote. I think when we look back 10 or 20 years from now at the current healthcare system people will wonder why we didnt do anything sooner.

[BanginJimmy]

I believe the majority do not always know what is in their best interest,

SO you believe that just because someone is in congress they are smarter than anyone else? You really do drink the kool-aid. Name just ONE thing the US Govt has not screwed up when it got its hands on it. When you realize that you cant come up with one, think out those same people deciding what kind of health coverage you are allowed to get for your family and yourself. THEY will decide what procedures you are allowed to get based on costs and what you contribute to society. Remember, this is the same administration that brought back the VA death book.





I think when we look back 10 or 20 years from now at the current healthcare system people will wonder why we didnt do anything sooner.

Why do you say this? The English have nationalized healthcare and hate it. The same is true of the French and Germans. The same countries that have these nationalized healthcare systems are the ones that have their citizens that can afford it coming to the US for medical care.



No one is doubting that we need to make some changed to healthcare as a whole, but dumping the best system in the world for one that doesnt work doesnt seem all that smart. It actually sounds pretty damn stupid if you ask me. They say they want to use competition to lower prices, yet none of their proposals will do anything to lower costs, if anything they will raise costs on all but the govt plan. Funny how that works huh. People that want a single payer system are writing these bills, They know they cant get one by calling it a single payer system so they are content in doing it more slowly.

How about expanding competition by allowing you to buy policies from across state borders? How about lowering prices with tort reform? How about ending the cost shifting policies by fighting medicare fraud and using that money to actually pay the real price of a medical procedure? These are all plans brought forward by republicans that have been killed without a vote by dems. The simple fact is that Dems want a nationalized, and eventually single payer, plan and will stop at nothing to get it.

[02SloWrx]

BUUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHHA I deserve the that award as much as obama did.

[mm2654]

If we could go back to the MLK thing for a min. There is absolutely no way to compare Obama to MLK. First, MLK was about much more than just giving great speeches. MLK had nearly 10 years of being a civil rights activist before winning the NPP. He had staged many boycotts, marches, sit-ins. MLK was true leader and made may sacrifices for his beliefs. MLK was awarded the NPP not because of his great speeches but rather his hard work and sacrifices.

[tony]

Name just ONE thing the US Govt has not screwed up when it got its hands on it.





Brown vs. the Board of Education. I have a list of them if you really really want it. Obviously discrimination couldn't be handled on the state level, the fed had to step in.

[BanginJimmy]

Brown vs. the Board of Education. I have a list of them if you really really want it. Obviously discrimination couldn't be handled on the state level, the fed had to step in.

I guess I need to be more clear so you can't sidestep the question. Name 1 thing that Congress has not screwed up.

[Total_Blender]

First, MLK was about much more than just giving great speeches. MLK had nearly 10 years of being a civil rights activist before winning the NPP. He had staged many boycotts, marches, sit-ins. MLK was true leader and made may sacrifices for his beliefs. MLK was awarded the NPP not because of his great speeches but rather his hard work and sacrifices.

I'll bite. While MLK was a great leader and he did make many sacrifices, a lot of the events such as sit-ins etc were organized by others, who would bring King is as a guest speaker. For example, the Memphis sanitation workers strike wasn't organized/started by King himself, it had been brewing/going on for several weeks before King and his group were asked to join.

Obama spent 10 years as a community organizer, the type of person who would plan the events associated with Dr. King at a grass-roots level (and not fake grass roots like 9/12 etc). In addition to that, I remember the visits Obama made during his campaign to various countries, and also the visits he made during his first months in office. The Obama presidency is an end to the period of isolationism/unilateralism started by W. and the neocons. While we are still bogged down in wars, at least now we are gaining back the support of the allies Bush had alienated.

Personally I think he deserves the nobel prize just for saving us from having Sarah Palin as vice fucking president. :cheers:

[.blank cd]

Personally I think he deserves the nobel prize just for saving us from having Sarah Palin as vice fucking president. :cheers:
Best post in this damn thread :goodjob:

[tony]

I guess I need to be more clear so you can't sidestep the question. Name 1 thing that Congress has not screwed up.

I answered the question, congress is just one facet of government, you still have the judicial and executive branch that has just as much authority.

Just like brown v. The 1964 civil rights act passed by congress was historical for obvious reasons.

[David88vert]

I answered the question, congress is just one facet of government, you still have the judicial and executive branch that has just as much authority.

Just like brown v. The 1964 civil rights act passed by congress was historical for obvious reasons.


BanginJimmy is asking about a government program, not a policy. There is a huge difference.

[Total_Blender]

Just like brown v. The 1964 civil rights act passed by congress was historical for obvious reasons.

Also, the G.I. Bill, the Higher Education Act of 1965, there are a lot of them. The premise of the question asked by Bangin Jimmy is bullshit really, because what progressives see as success, conservatives will see as failure. The nature of centralized government programs is that there are always tradeoffs and downsides. That goes for any program. I don't think any program will ever succeed 100%, but that doesn't mean that we should just do nothing.

[tony]

Also, the G.I. Bill, the Higher Education Act of 1965, there are a lot of them. The premise of the question asked by Bangin Jimmy is bullshit really, because what progressives see as success, conservatives will see as failure. The nature of centralized government programs is that there are always tradeoffs and downsides. That goes for any program. I don't think any program will ever succeed 100%, but that doesn't mean that we should just do nothing.

I was going to post a very similar reply. You can find shortcomings in any initiative especially from the government but at the end of the day the question is whether it meets the needs of the people it serves. Is the military able to defend this country, yes. Is every child able to attend school and receive an education, yes. Is the person on welfare able to put food on the table, yes. And when healthcare reform comes can the person who needs medical attention able to get it when they couldn't before, yes. If it meets the needs of the people then I cannot call it a failure.

[man]

OMG, I can't control myself lol. Did you just call liberals PROGRESSIVES??? What a joke :lmfao:

[zspeed24]

OMG, I can't control myself lol. Did you just call liberals PROGRESSIVES??? What a joke :lmfao:

Thought the same thing :lmfao:

[Total_Blender]

OMG, I can't control myself lol. Did you just call liberals PROGRESSIVES??? What a joke :lmfao:

How is that funny? I don't see the right aiming for any kind of progress, seems they are only interested in keeping up the status quo. Which is cool if you like crooked insurance companies and trust them with your health...

[preferredduck]

Can anyone tell me what he has done besides bash America?

he has brought more troops to afghan, sent more contractors too iraq, threatened iran, never closed gitmo. this is a BS publicity stunt dont fall for it people. thats like giving it to kim jong ill.

[Feffman]

This just in.

Washington, DC: - President watches football game and wins Heisman.

[Browning151]

How is that funny? I don't see the right aiming for any kind of progress, seems they are only interested in keeping up the status quo. Which is cool if you like crooked insurance companies and trust them with your health...

Because bureaucrats are much less crooked and more qualified to make those decisions for us :thinking: and the right has put forth alternatives to the current healthcare plan that have all been shot down, but I'm sure you've done plenty of research and know all about the alternatives that have been put forth.

[Total_Blender]

. this is a BS publicity stunt dont fall for it people. .

Whats to fall for? How does the Nobel affect anything? How many people on this board can name all the recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize off the top of their heads without using Wikipedia?

In the grand scheme of things, nobody follows/pays attention to the Nobel. Add a buck fifty to it and maybe it will get you a cup of coffee. The only reason the right is even concerned with this is because there are some who feel the need to make snotty comments every single time his name is mentioned.

[Vteckidd]

In Obamas mind "crooked" means "out to make a profit"

[112480]

LOL missed the point again.

Can you not see the handwriting on the wall. His approval ratings have dropped 20 points in 9 months. WHY? Dont tell me its because people WISH him to fail or WANT him to fail.

Its because people dont trust what he is doing. Unemployment is still climbing despite his promise it wouldnt. The economy is still struggling even though he said STIM 1 would rescue us. Healthcare is nowhere near done even though he said "BY SEPTEMBER " we would have a vote.

Everything he has promised has NOT BEEN DONE. Thats lack of confidence in your leaders, plain and simple.

QUOTE ME NOW

This time next year his approval ratings will be BELOW 45% as unemployment climbs and the economy drags on. ESPECIALLY if he gets his wish with healthcare

Im not wishing for his failure, i just know its coming

Question mike, if McCain and Palin were in there instead what would b their approval rating by now?? Do u HONESTLY HONESTLY HONESTLY think we would b in a better situation as far as Healthcare, Economy, UNEMPLOYMENT etc etc IF they were in office?? Please think about it and give a SERIOUS no B.S answer.

[BanginJimmy]

Question mike, if McCain and Palin were in there instead what would b their approval rating by now?? Do u HONESTLY HONESTLY HONESTLY think we would b in a better situation as far as Healthcare, Economy, UNEMPLOYMENT etc etc IF they were in office?? Please think about it and give a SERIOUS no B.S answer.

I will say we wouldnt have the threat of healthcare "reform", or cap and trade in congress right now. So yes, we would be in a better situation overall.

[BanginJimmy]

I answered the question, congress is just one facet of government, you still have the judicial and executive branch that has just as much authority.

Just like brown v. The 1964 civil rights act passed by congress was historical for obvious reasons.


O know you arent this damn stupid. I would expect this from someone as ignorant as Blender, but not you. As you will notice, I said congress in my reply to you. yet you still sidestep this. The Judicial and Executive branches are NOT part of the legislative branch.

[BanginJimmy]

Also, the G.I. Bill,

You obviously never used the original GI Bill or VEAP. It was a disaster that was harder to use than just applying for other forms of financial aid.



the Higher Education Act of 1965,

Started as a nice law, but it is quickly getting to be a bunch of BS, starting in 2003. Lower standards for minorities to apply loans, more lenient on paying back the loans, among many other things.




there are a lot of them. [quote]

We can tell by how well the stimulus and "No Chold Left Behind" are working.


[QUOTE=Total_Blender;38391550]The premise of the question asked by Bangin Jimmy is bullshit really, because what progressives see as success, conservatives will see as failure.

Really? If this is the case then it would logically say that anything that works if a conservative does it, would be called a failure by liberals. Little failures like the surge in Iraq come to mind.



The nature of centralized government programs is that there are always tradeoffs and downsides. That goes for any program. I don't think any program will ever succeed 100%,

There is always be trade-offs on an ideological standpoint, but something that works, works. Kinda like the failure of the surge in Iraq.




but that doesn't mean that we should just do nothing.

So you believe anything is better than nothing? That is a horrible way to live your life. How can you honestly say that we should try something that hasnt worked anywhere else it has been tried? Liberals like to say that Americans are conceited, yet this philosophy is FAR worse than anything done so far. They are saying "Yea, France fucked up socialized medicine, but we are Americans, it will work perfectly for us".

[zimabog]

I did not read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned that the nominations were due by February? That means he was in office for only 11 days when the nomination was due.

Also, even though the NPP committee makes the final decision, the nomination actually has to be sent in by some other person who the committee selects to find nominees.

Is there grease money involved in this? I don't know.

[Total_Blender]

I really don't see how socialized medicine has "failed" anywhere if the populations are healthier than we are. :screwy:

All the stuff you hear about wait times.... I'd rather wait than not get treatment at all.:screwy:

I'd trust a bureaucrat who doesn't care if I live or die over an insurance crook whose job it is to make sure that I die as cheaply as possible. :lmfao:

[§treet_§peed]

I'm still wondering what Obama done that was so great for him to receive this very prestigious award.

[Total_Blender]

I'm still wondering what Obama done that was so great for him to receive this very prestigious award.

He defeated the neoconservative element in American politics that favors a belligerent foreign policy. Dick Cheyney, Karl Rove, and Sarah Palin have been swept under the rug (at least when it comes to the world stage) for the time being, and its clear the rest of the civilized world does not wish their return. :goodjob:

The prize is awarded by a 5 person committee from the Norwegian parliament, as specified in the will of Alfred Nobel. Its worth noting that this committee is currently composed of 3 delegates from the Labor Party (liberals) 1 from the Conservative Party, and 1 from the Progress party (right/libertarian). The mixed committee of 3 on the left and 2 on the right voted for Obama unanimously.

[Vteckidd]

Question mike, if McCain and Palin were in there instead what would b their approval rating by now?? Do u HONESTLY HONESTLY HONESTLY think we would b in a better situation as far as Healthcare, Economy, UNEMPLOYMENT etc etc IF they were in office?? Please think about it and give a SERIOUS no B.S answer.

I didnt like MCcain either ill be totally honest. I thought Palin was too green but i liked what she had to say.

Do i think we would be BETTER, yes.

Mccain would not have done a 800 billion dollar stimulus, he would have given tax cuts to small business and i think would have neglected to take over GM. IMO of course we will never know.

He would be doing SOME type of healthcare reform but not this soon and not on this magnitude.

Economy would have been slightly better imo due to reason 1

Unemployment would be slightly better due to reason 1

Honest answer, i dont like Obama or his policies, and i dont like all the republicans either. I think its time an Independent won

Approval ratings would not have been as high as Obamas to start off with , and i dont think it would have fallen much either. My point is Obama was in the 80s when he took office and hes 25-30 points below that and we havent even hit xmas yet

[§treet_§peed]

what policy was it exactly that he defeated?

[Vteckidd]

Lets be fair, George W. Bush had approval ratings of 80+%. He stayed above 50+% most of his term which is pretty good in terms of past presidents.

Heres a nifty chart

http://online.wsj.com/media/info-presapp0605-all.gif

http://online.wsj.com/media/info-presapp0605-bush2.gif

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html


Why isnt Bush given the same courtesy as obama? Isnt it only natural that a president who inherited a recession from clinton, weak foreign policies from clinton, a tragedy in 9/11 that only 1 other president had to deal with (Roosevelt with pearl harbor), Iraq War, Afghanistan War, Hurricane Katrina, would have an approval rating that went down over time?

But for Obamas approval to go down its because "its only natural it should fall, its totally ok"

But when Bushs approval fell it was because he was the antichrist. You guys cant even admit that people are NOT HAPPY with obamas policies

[Vteckidd]

30% of the nation's voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Thirty-eight percent (38%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -8 (see trends). Thirty-four percent (34%) say the country is generally heading in the right direction.


-Rasmussen


Its dropped as much as 22 points on Gallup, and HC is now more popular than BO

http://www.gallup.com/home.aspx

[tony]

Why isnt Bush given the same courtesy as obama?


The difference and why? About 7 years and 3 months. You want to compare a 2 term president's ratings to a 10 month president?

Whats interesting about that graph is, Bush's approval ratings were on a decline till 9/11.. at a time when it was deemed unpatriotic to not support the administration (I'm sure that had NOTHING to do with his approval) then the decline picks up right where it left off when his 2nd term started and continued downward until the end of the graph in 2008.

There is no excuse for bad leadership, and unfortunately Bush was a bad leader.. theres just no way around that and no graph is going to hide it.

[112480]

The difference and why? About 7 years and 3 months. You want to compare a 2 term president's ratings to a 10 month president?

Whats interesting about that graph is, Bush's approval ratings were on a decline till 9/11.. at a time when it was deemed unpatriotic to not support the administration (I'm sure that had NOTHING to do with his approval) then the decline picks up right where it left off when his 2nd term started and continued downward until the end of the graph in 2008.

There is no excuse for bad leadership, and unfortunately Bush was a bad leader.. theres just no way around that and no graph is going to hide it.

^x2:goodjob:

And thanx for clearing that up mike. LOL i was beginning to think u were a hardcore republican who bashes dems every chance u get and uphold republicans as the saviors of this country. But i will say despite all the numbers and charts that u show as ur "proof" of obama "failing" u haven't provided ONE chart that SOLEY points out how bad bush was. Sure we see it in the charts u show but that only because u are comparing him to clinton/obama or other past presidents. All i'm saying is that if u want to come from an "independent" side of things that u should point out republicans faults(such as bush and his father) and not JUST dems.

Oh and about this whole clinton thing,(just to get off the subject for a mintue) let me say this. Growing up my father(now retired from GM, 30yrs!) loved it and made a lot of extra money from all the overtime when clinton was in office, but when bush got in there all the sudden plants were shutting down and going overseas all the overtime was cut out etc etc, but my dad just laugh and said "yea its the usual, everytime a dem is in office GM was ok, but let the repub come in and all the sudden there are problems.

Yeah of course mike ur gonna say "well bush and his father had nothing to do with GM,Ford and Crysler situation" but as u say look deeper into it. How in THE hell r u gonna help stop american companies from shipping our job overseas when ur too busy starting wars to profit and take over other countries?? How in THE hell do u expect US(americans) to buy cars etc that r suppose to b soley american when they ship the jobs off to other countries and then when we dont support(or cant afford) these so called american cars they want to say we're unamerican! WTF! But dick cheney can contract certain companies he OWNS to build tanks and other war machines right after bush push things threw to invade other countries, i.e Iraq and the so call WOMD's???!!??

What do u think about that mike? Mike how do u tell 1000's of GM,Ford and Crysler work that their problem is no big deal and they should b happy that the war in iraq might be settled one day so they should focus on that. how mike do u tell those families that other countries problems r more important than theirs?? When the last time u been to the Unemployment office?? Just like to see a little more i guess sympathy from u for other ppl's situation instead of looking at it from ur view.

Yeah i agree that the "big three" should have been allowed to crash without any help from the taxpayers, BUT BUT BUT what will come of the workers(the real workers, ppl on the ground) and their familes if that were to happen?? McCain would have let that happen b/c he wouldnt have given a bailout. Obama did so the companies would have yet another chance to revive themselves so the families working for them will still have a chance for survival. Now how does that effect u???

Imagine going to the store any store, getting parts, groceries etc etc and u get rob by a person who use to work for one of the big three, or other compaines in similar situations and the outcome didnt look to good for u. NOW if that person wasnt pressured to do such a thing then maybe u wouldnt have that problem at the time. SURE they had a choice to do that regardless of their personal situation, but see mike when ppl r in desprate situation they WILL do what they have to do to survive. A man with a family will not see his kids and wife on a street corner. it just wont happen. Everybody doesnt have those family member who will take them in, unemployment ran out on them, and noone has called them back for a job position etc etc. what would u do? ppl act stupid when they're hungry and homeless.

Thats y even though we and our kids kids r going to pay for this stimulus for years and years to come at least for now it has help in certain ways neccessary from ppl attacking each other at a bigger rate than now!

what do u think mike?

[Vteckidd]

Well im anti big government. Bush grew the government by an incredible size after 9/11, Obama grew it more.

I was not Bushs #1 fan but i am also a business owner and a fiscal conservative. I think people give Bush a bad rap over things that really were not his fault and they dont understand WHY things happened the way they did.

Take your point about shipping jobs overseas. This is not the first time i have had this argument. TELL ME HOW TO FIX IT. Lets build everything in america and ban all imports. Do you not understand how that is just a recipe for massive inflation in the first place?

WHose to blame? Not Bush, its the American Consumer. We LOVE our $199 IPHONEs, $600 flat screen TVs, $199 Xbox/PS3, $300 surround sound systems, $30 DVD players, $200 laptops, $500 desktops, etc etc etc. Thats what we want. So like any good businessman would do, they supply the hunger aka demand.

There is no way to manufacture INSIDE THE UNITED STATES and be competitive on a global market. Its NOT going to happen and theres 2 reasons why, SOUTH AMERICA and CHINA. they have the cheap labor force to mass produce items americans are buying. If we outlaw their stuff, you really think we can make it for the same price here? we CANT. Your iphone will become $1000 over night, your TV will become $4000 overnight, etc etc etc. So youll continue to make the same wage at your american job, but prices of goods will go up.

We would have to compete against the chinese and south america, why do you think we cant? Because no american is going to do the work THEY do for $5/hr.

Why do you think jobs go overseas in the first place? UNIONS. American car companies had NO CHOICE but to find ways to make more money. The unions as it has been shown time and time again crippled them. They could not be profitable. They could not compete against Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. Why do you think that is true? COST, OVERHEAD, WORKERS salaries, etc. Simple story is they made too much money at GM and other domestic makers. But the workers didnt want paycuts, they expected to keep making the same money etc etc etc.

Now i suppose someone will say that it was all the greedy CEOs keeping all the money for themselves, well who are you to tell someone that they make "too much money". IMO they tried it the UNIONs way and it doesnt work, time to start over.

To the families, i feel for them, but thats life. Pick up and move on. You think our grandparents and greatgrandparents during the depression so oh whoa is me what am i supposed to do? no they dug themselves out and moved on. Our society doesnt want that, they want to blame someone else, and have the govt hand them money.

[Vteckidd]

I posted this over a year ago, basically sums up how i feel


Facts are facts.



Despite being at war and inheriting a real recession caused by .Com bubble burst and 9-11.



Unemployment

Clinton 8 years: 5.2

Bush 7 years 5.18 (includes high recession years)



GDP Growth

Clinton 8 years 3.5

Bush 7 years 2.4 (which includes the Recession Bush inherited from Clinton Administration)



Home ownership:

Clinton highest 67.8%

CURRENT Bush 68.7%



Although the economy cost Bush Senior his re-election campaign, history has proven that the recession in that era was eliminated BEFORE Clinton took office and in fact he got to ride a false .COM boom (it was real but it was not a fiscally solid boom)—a boom which burst and manifested itself in Bush’s numbers.



Just another few things to consider:



Our economy is outperforming all economies of similar countries—Europeans for example—this is a global downturn.



The jobs we lost we can’t get back—we aren’t postured to compete with cheap labor goods.



Have a serious discussion –it isn’t rocket science.



Obama wants to raise tariffs to cause America to be more competitive in the US Market and create jobs—but what does that mean ?



It means the Toy from China which cost 5 now and was made with 3 dollars an hour (or whatever) labor will now cost $ 8 –and at 8$ an US company can pay a US worker minimum wage and we can compete. The problem of course to the consumers is they now pay $8 bucks for the toy. A recipe for inflation. Anyone thinking the good old days for the Auto Industry can return is just crazy stupid—the only way we got competitive is by automation and decreasing manufacturing type jobs—basically doing only the assembly tasks. And unless you want to subsidize jobs here by paying higher prices this won’t work.



Obama wants to raise taxes—history has proven raising taxes hurts the creation of jobs, capital and tax revenues—just a fact in the last 3 reduction of taxes, growth occurred and the resulting revenues were larger as a result. He can claim he is only going after the “rich” --while this is a lie, let’s agree it is true. What does a rich person do with more money? They create more wealth buy investing in the expansion of their business—sometimes it is in their business—other times it is in other luxury goods they buy. Do we want no more Rolls Royces to be made? But let’s be more specific and talk about the real folks he is going after—the small business folks making >250K. These folks are the source of the vast majority of our new jobs—you know the 8M new jobs Bush created in the recession/war time economy he inherited (let’s face it if the terrorists hadn’t done 9/11 we would not be in IRAQ—and clearly the 9/11 attacks are far more Clinton responsibility than Bush). Bush inherited a weak on security and recessive economy from Clinton—just facts no matter how the left spins it. But Bush’s tax cuts enabled small business’s to invest more in growth and grow faster as a result.



Just think about it—we are so stupid—we give stimulus tax refund checks to only people who paid little or no taxes—and they spend it on energy costs or consumer goods. Not a bad thing—but if the purpose was to stimulate growth the rebates should have gone to real taxpayers, who might have used the money to grow their businesses—employ more folks, which by the way generates even more tax revenues—no wonder it had little effect. Sad truth is was a pathetic attempt by both Bush and Pelosi/Reid to bribe stupid Americans in to thinking they care and were thinking of them in an election year. Vote for sale--



The rhetoric is just crazy –and the pea brains don’t bother to ask “how?”



Another point to consider:



The last time we had a liberal congress with a liberal President was Jimmy Carter—and this Congress is currently the worst in our history if you believe polls. Reagan was counter-balanced by Democrats in Congress and Clinton was counter-balanced Newt Gingrich led Congress. An Obama/Reid/Pelosi leadership team will be a disaster of enormous proportions.

[TIGERJC]

fake growth under bush. Clinton and bush are responsible for that problem

[112480]

Well im anti big government. Bush grew the government by an incredible size after 9/11, Obama grew it more.

I was not Bushs #1 fan but i am also a business owner and a fiscal conservative. I think people give Bush a bad rap over things that really were not his fault and they dont understand WHY things happened the way they did.

Take your point about shipping jobs overseas. This is not the first time i have had this argument. TELL ME HOW TO FIX IT. Lets build everything in america and ban all imports. Do you not understand how that is just a recipe for massive inflation in the first place?

WHose to blame? Not Bush, its the American Consumer. We LOVE our $199 IPHONEs, $600 flat screen TVs, $199 Xbox/PS3, $300 surround sound systems, $30 DVD players, $200 laptops, $500 desktops, etc etc etc. Thats what we want. So like any good businessman would do, they supply the hunger aka demand.

There is no way to manufacture INSIDE THE UNITED STATES and be competitive on a global market. Its NOT going to happen and theres 2 reasons why, SOUTH AMERICA and CHINA. they have the cheap labor force to mass produce items americans are buying. If we outlaw their stuff, you really think we can make it for the same price here? we CANT. Your iphone will become $1000 over night, your TV will become $4000 overnight, etc etc etc. So youll continue to make the same wage at your american job, but prices of goods will go up.

We would have to compete against the chinese and south america, why do you think we cant? Because no american is going to do the work THEY do for $5/hr.

Why do you think jobs go overseas in the first place? UNIONS. American car companies had NO CHOICE but to find ways to make more money. The unions as it has been shown time and time again crippled them. They could not be profitable. They could not compete against Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. Why do you think that is true? COST, OVERHEAD, WORKERS salaries, etc. Simple story is they made too much money at GM and other domestic makers. But the workers didnt want paycuts, they expected to keep making the same money etc etc etc.

Now i suppose someone will say that it was all the greedy CEOs keeping all the money for themselves, well who are you to tell someone that they make "too much money". IMO they tried it the UNIONs way and it doesnt work, time to start over.

To the families, i feel for them, but thats life. Pick up and move on. You think our grandparents and greatgrandparents during the depression so oh whoa is me what am i supposed to do? no they dug themselves out and moved on. Our society doesnt want that, they want to blame someone else, and have the govt hand them money.

This is true but not in all ways. Look I'm a business owner too and i understand but once ur company goes on a publicy traded market ur first obligation should b to the workers and their families cause without them u have no company! so yes their SHOULD B A CAP on CEO salaries on a pubilc traded company and YES the REAL workers shouldn't have to take a pay cut. And yes the Unions did cripple them BUT without the union the workers wouldnt have had their decent salaries anyway and other IMPORTANT benifits b/c the companies would give them NOTHING! I was with the union when i worked for GM and ket me tell u mike there is no WAY IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT that we would have the salaries and benifits that we had if it weren't for them. Were the unions all good? OF course NOT! they f-up PLENTY of times too but when it came down to the essential basic need of the worker in terms of pay and benifits and how their treated by management on the job they pulled threw!

Their was SO MUCH stuff going on inside mike that u wouldnt believe!!

Like i said i worked for GM for 7 years before owning my own business and let me tell u i am SO grateful that it went that route b/c if it didnt then i would be the heartless person as so many r today that r CEO's and that have their own big(or profitable) businesses, just toltally UNSYMPETATIC to other ppl's fiscal situations. Yes our grandparents and greatgrandparents pulled threw the depression, but in all fairness we ARE NOT them! It gets worse with time not better! U can only compare us to them for so long but the truth is at the end of the day mike NONE OF US ARE THEM!

Now if someone else comes from another angle and say well Gregg since u own ur own business how do feel about obama rasing taxes on ur small business? If it will in some way help the less unfortunate, then i would welcome it, no matter if it goes toward healthcare, education, unemployment anything helpful to ppl who REALLY need it. If more ppl took that step then it would b less b.s going on, but then again thats not reality cause everyone is in it for themselves, BUT out of the mist of it all SOMEONE has got to care.

and on the shipping jobs overseas to S.America/china i know about all that! Our plant here in GA was shut down, not b/c we just building outdated Cargo Vans, but basically GM decided to ship it overseas to get that $5/hr labor, but let me ask u this mike........

Am i wrong for not buying that shit that they bring back over here when it was taking away from me and SO MANY others?? GM took our $20+/hr jobs away from us to send that vehicle over to another country to get build for $5/hr then ship it back and expect us to buy it at $25-30,000! when we're now making $7-10/hr LOL!!!! Come on! U say if all the iphone,HD tv's etc etc were built here that inflation would shoot threw the roof and prices would b so high that even with our $20+/hr jobs we couldn't afford it? I say to u whats the difference? Yes the iphone is $300 b/c its built at a lower manufacture rate outside the U.S BUT BUT if i'm now making $7-10/hr!! how in the HELL can i afford that shit when i have two kids, house bills, car note, insurance, phone bill, etc etc etc bringing in $150-200 a week? Whats the difference mike???

UR move mike.........

[zspeed24]

This is true but not in all ways. Look I'm a business owner too and i understand but once ur company goes on a publicy traded market ur first obligation should b to the workers and their families cause without them u have no company! so yes their SHOULD B A CAP on CEO salaries on a pubilc traded company and YES the REAL workers shouldn't have to take a pay cut. And yes the Unions did cripple them BUT without the union the workers wouldnt have had their decent salaries anyway and other IMPORTANT benifits b/c the companies would give them NOTHING! I was with the union when i worked for GM and ket me tell u mike there is no WAY IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT that we would have the salaries and benifits that we had if it weren't for them. Were the unions all good? OF course NOT! they f-up PLENTY of times too but when it came down to the essential basic need of the worker in terms of pay and benifits and how their treated by management on the job they pulled threw!

Their was SO MUCH stuff going on inside mike that u wouldnt believe!!

Like i said i worked for GM for 7 years before owning my own business and let me tell u i am SO grateful that it went that route b/c if it didnt then i would be the heartless person as so many r today that r CEO's and that have their own big(or profitable) businesses, just toltally UNSYMPETATIC to other ppl's fiscal situations. Yes our grandparents and greatgrandparents pulled threw the depression, but in all fairness we ARE NOT them! It gets worse with time not better! U can only compare us to them for so long but the truth is at the end of the day mike NONE OF US ARE THEM!

Now if someone else comes from another angle and say well Gregg since u own ur own business how do feel about obama rasing taxes on ur small business? If it will in some way help the less unfortunate, then i would welcome it, no matter if it goes toward healthcare, education, unemployment anything helpful to ppl who REALLY need it. If more ppl took that step then it would b less b.s going on, but then again thats not reality cause everyone is in it for themselves, BUT out of the mist of it all SOMEONE has got to care.

and on the shipping jobs overseas to S.America/china i know about all that! Our plant here in GA was shut down, not b/c we just building outdated Cargo Vans, but basically GM decided to ship it overseas to get that $5/hr labor, but let me ask u this mike........

Am i wrong for not buying that shit that they bring back over here when it was taking away from me and SO MANY others?? GM took our $20+/hr jobs away from us to send that vehicle over to another country to get build for $5/hr then ship it back and expect us to buy it at $25-30,000! when we're now making $7-10/hr LOL!!!! Come on! U say if all the iphone,HD tv's etc etc were built here that inflation would shoot threw the roof and prices would b so high that even with our $20+/hr jobs we couldn't afford it? I say to u whats the difference? Yes the iphone is $300 b/c its built at a lower manufacture rate outside the U.S BUT BUT if i'm now making $7-10/hr!! how in the HELL can i afford that shit when i have two kids, house bills, car note, insurance, phone bill, etc etc etc bringing in $150-200 a week? Whats the difference mike???

UR move mike.........


A publicly traded company's ONLY responsibility is to their stockholders most of which are EMPLOYEES. My grandfather started in the manufacturing field at Caterpillar. He decided to move on and start his own business making parts for them because of the UAW. He was forced to strike within the first six months of being employed and when it came time for the union to step in and help they turned thier backs on the people they were supposed to help. This still goes on 50 years latter. In my home town well over 50% of the people that live there lose nearly everything they have everytime contract renewals come up. I know plenty of them that work there and most of these people don't want to strike because they are satisfied with the money (I'd be happy with the 20-40 dollars an hour they make too) that they are earning already. It is the unions that are showing thier greed because they know the higher wages go the more money they will make.

You cannot tell me that you would be ok if the government came in to your business and said look i know you are working really hard but we think that you should only bring home 50,000 this year. Guess what the day they do that at my business will be the last day my doors will be open. I work for myself so that I can prosper.

Owning a small business i'm sure you understand that we don't pay taxes, right? It is considered a cost of good sold and is passed on through lower wages and higher product cost.

:2cents:

[tony]

A publicly traded company's ONLY responsibility is to their stockholders most of which are EMPLOYEES.

Whoa whoa whoa, lets get that statement straight. Every company has a responsibility to their STAKEHOLDERS not stockholders. Meaning everyone who has a stake in that company is to be considered, that includes employees, customers, management, even the community in which it serves. A corporation cannot use the resources of the community, turn a profit and then say they have no responsibility on those who benefit or suffer from their business. That line of thinking is part of the problem now, the lack of understanding of business ethics.

[TSiFTW]

Actually publicly traded corporations 1st and foremost responsibility IS to protect the investment of the stockholders. People need to learn by the real world not what the teachers, books, and television tells you. When are some people gonna wake up and smell the roses. Even small to medium sized businesses with investors first order of business is to make the investors happy. Cause guess what happens if you don't, you LOSE your backing, your money, your business, your livelyhood. So anyone that thinks a major corporation actually puts the people, towns, employees, etc. first is just naive. Large corporations have a customer base, their employees are expendable, and Wal Mart is a prime example of how much a major corporation actually gives a damn about the towns and citizens, when they go public. It's all about the money man. Always has been, always will be.

[Vteckidd]

UR move mike.........


Its really just a fundamental difference of opinions. Im in favor of protecting the business owners, as well as making sure the employees are paid what they are WORTH. Im in favor of tax cuts for the people that pay the most in taxes. Im in favor of small government that doesnt interfere in personal citizens lives. Im in favor of being seen as pro-active in protecting our interests regardless of what the world thinks.

Instead of wondering why our jobs are going overseas, we need to be letting the chinese and indias of the world have those jobs. We should be doing the highly technical fields that they cant do. But look at our college grad stats and they are horrible.

Ambition is what drives this country, or did. Not complacency. I want the guy ambitious enough to make 5 million dollars a year. I want the guy willing to risk it all on an idea to make himself a millionaire. Historically speaking, those multi million dollar CEOs are employing YOU or were at one time in your life. Dont you think they know their bottom line for than you do?

The simple truth is people have been making more an more money over the last 20-30 years than any other country in the world. Our people make THE MOST MONEY of anyone, but yet we want to raise the cost of goods to somehow "keep up" with china?

Those days are over with and they are not coming back. China owns most of our T-bills and debt, as long as they have that, we wont get in a trade war with them as that would cripple our dollar overnight.

Like i have always said, the world needs $20,000 a year jobs, some people make it, some people dont. Its life. Not everyone can be on the same level making awesome money and living it up.

You obviously got laid off i assume from GM. Sucks, but did you sit around and cry about it? no, sounds like you went off and became an entrepeneur. GOOD! Thats awesome , its not easy i know, but you are trying to do something with your life, so what happens in 15 years when you are making $500,000 a year and you retire. "Obama" comes in an says "youre making too much Gregg, you are going to have to make less money, provide free healthcare to your employees, and oh im gonna have to tax you a little more too, hope it works out!"

[112480]

Its really just a fundamental difference of opinions. Im in favor of protecting the business owners, as well as making sure the employees are paid what they are WORTH. Im in favor of tax cuts for the people that pay the most in taxes. Im in favor of small government that doesnt interfere in personal citizens lives. Im in favor of being seen as pro-active in protecting our interests regardless of what the world thinks.

Instead of wondering why our jobs are going overseas, we need to be letting the chinese and indias of the world have those jobs. We should be doing the highly technical fields that they cant do. But look at our college grad stats and they are horrible.

Ambition is what drives this country, or did. Not complacency. I want the guy ambitious enough to make 5 million dollars a year. I want the guy willing to risk it all on an idea to make himself a millionaire. Historically speaking, those multi million dollar CEOs are employing YOU or were at one time in your life. Dont you think they know their bottom line for than you do?

The simple truth is people have been making more an more money over the last 20-30 years than any other country in the world. Our people make THE MOST MONEY of anyone, but yet we want to raise the cost of goods to somehow "keep up" with china?

Those days are over with and they are not coming back. China owns most of our T-bills and debt, as long as they have that, we wont get in a trade war with them as that would cripple our dollar overnight.

Like i have always said, the world needs $20,000 a year jobs, some people make it, some people dont. Its life. Not everyone can be on the same level making awesome money and living it up.

You obviously got laid off i assume from GM. Sucks, but did you sit around and cry about it? no, sounds like you went off and became an entrepeneur. GOOD! Thats awesome , its not easy i know, but you are trying to do something with your life, so what happens in 15 years when you are making $500,000 a year and you retire. "Obama" comes in an says "youre making too much Gregg, you are going to have to make less money, provide free healthcare to your employees, and oh im gonna have to tax you a little more too, hope it works out!"

Understandable, BUT! see theirs always a but. It would be nice if everyone would strive to own their own business and let the rest of the world have the 20,000 labor jobs BUT thats not reality. As u stated mike look at our education system as a whole! There arent nearly enough ivy and other prestigus schools to shadow the poor education system in this country. This country(unfortunately) NEEDS those jobs they send over seas cause not every has that drive or will to become the next CEO or project manager or CFO,COO, directors etc etc. I undertsand what obama is saying to us, the business owners,BUT! its kinda hard for me to enjoy the fruits of my hard earned labor,business wise, when i go down the street from my half or a million dollar house and u got ppl waiting to rob u b/c u have what they dont have.

B/c u did something with yourself instead of wallowing in ur what i like to call lazyness, they want to take it. Maybe its just me mike, but i didnt grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth(not applying u did either) so i look at this in a different perspective. even flourishing in my business and becoming a millionare one day, i will still have that poor-middle class attitude embeded in me. Not the "oh my god i just got laid off and the CEO r sucking it up, feeling sorry for myself and angry at them", but the part of if i work hard for what i want it will cpme to pass one day, BUT many ppl here dont think that way. They just want a paycheck. Point them to the clock, let them punch in and out and give them they check at the end of the week. The dont want the high end technical position that u speak of, just there 40hrs a week and a check.

Thats what i'm talking about. And when u take that from them, what else do they have to survive off of??? Mike when u say u feel for the families, what excatly do u mean?

[112480]

A publicly traded company's ONLY responsibility is to their stockholders most of which are EMPLOYEES. My grandfather started in the manufacturing field at Caterpillar. He decided to move on and start his own business making parts for them because of the UAW. He was forced to strike within the first six months of being employed and when it came time for the union to step in and help they turned thier backs on the people they were supposed to help. This still goes on 50 years latter. In my home town well over 50% of the people that live there lose nearly everything they have everytime contract renewals come up. I know plenty of them that work there and most of these people don't want to strike because they are satisfied with the money (I'd be happy with the 20-40 dollars an hour they make too) that they are earning already. It is the unions that are showing thier greed because they know the higher wages go the more money they will make.

You cannot tell me that you would be ok if the government came in to your business and said look i know you are working really hard but we think that you should only bring home 50,000 this year. Guess what the day they do that at my business will be the last day my doors will be open. I work for myself so that I can prosper.

Owning a small business i'm sure you understand that we don't pay taxes, right? It is considered a cost of good sold and is passed on through lower wages and higher product cost.

:2cents:

And the workers r the EMPLOYEES. And i know all to well about the UAW, remember i said they messed up PLENTY of times. Yes at times when u need them they wouldn't have ur back but as i said at the basic timing of wages and benifits they were there to push it threw. Yes in big part of b/c if they get us more money, they get more in union dues, BUT we got what we wanted as well. We went threw the same problems here at the GM plant, went threw it for 7 years so i know.

Yes obama is basically saying if u make so much then he's gonna tax u higher(he cant put a cap on ur profit) BUT IF and thats a big IF,if it goes to places such as healthcare and unemployment etc, then that would make me feel a little better when i go places and dont have to worry about being robbed, cause if u notice, lately these ppl have been going to the $500k+ neighborhoods now when they just normally stay on the other bad sides of town. See its a diff in being robbed by a person b/c he wants what u got and dont want to go out and get it on his own vs. a person robbing u b/c he lost his job,unemployment benifits cut out, IRA and other accounts exhausted etc, wife left him and so on.

The first idiot u can typical avoid by not going into those areas where the population is at a poor level, but the second guy might b harder to spot cause he could b anywhere! Including ur neighbor of 10+ years that had it all and now has nothing and can't get anything. do u think he's going on the street corner? i dont think so.

[112480]

Mike another off the topic question, why do u think an Independent will NEVER win a position as president?? BTW mike i'm a franchise owner with JAN-PRO Cleaning System of Atlanta and have a good number of accounts, but always need/want more. So if u know anybody in need of a cleaning service for their facility please mention my name and give them my number: 678-362-1866

I have everything from doctors offices, to corporate offices to banks. lmk

[112480]

Ambition is what drives this country, or did. Not complacency. I want the guy ambitious enough to make 5 million dollars a year. I want the guy willing to risk it all on an idea to make himself a millionaire.

I like this statement u made mike, hell dont we all, but heres my question to that, WHERE R THESE PPL??????? All i see are ppl that just want their 40hrs and a check at the end of the week and now they dont have that.

[Total_Blender]

It takes capital to start up a business, and capital is in short supply nowadays. I think there are a lot more "ambitious" people out there than you think, but many of them are just struggling to get decent compensation for their 40 hours until they can get something started.

[Vteckidd]

It takes capital to start up a business, and capital is in short supply nowadays. I think there are a lot more "ambitious" people out there than you think, but many of them are just struggling to get decent compensation for their 40 hours until they can get something started.

define "decent compensation"

Our workers make the most of anyone in the world

Our workers have the best healthcare in the world

Our workers have grown the most in wealth in the last 30 years than anyone else(meaning they made more money and advanced higher in their career fields than anyone else).

I would venture to say they have the best pensions and retirement plans in the world too although i have no figures for that.

What more do you want?

[Total_Blender]

What more do you want?

We might "make the most" but when you look at the value of our dollar and what we actually get for it, we're probably not that much better off. Also, we work more hours per week than Europe (good for us IMO), their full-time work week is 30-35 hours IIRC.

And as far as the "best health care in the world," I will agree with you that the standards of the care itself are very high. But so is the price, so while Americans have the best care, very few of them can afford said care. 46 million are uninsured. The rest of the industrialized world has universal coverage almost across the board. They are more physically fit, live longer, have lower infant mortality, etc etc.

[Vteckidd]

We might "make the most" but when you look at the value of our dollar and what we actually get for it, we're probably not that much better off. Also, we work more hours per week than Europe (good for us IMO), their full-time work week is 30-35 hours IIRC.

And as far as the "best health care in the world," I will agree with you that the standards of the care itself are very high. But so is the price, so while Americans have the best care, very few of them can afford said care. 46 million are uninsured. The rest of the industrialized world has universal coverage almost across the board. They are more physically fit, live longer, have lower infant mortality, etc etc.



1) pick a number and stick with it (not you personally but anyone that wants to talk about healthcare) It ranges from 12-50 million depending on who you are talking about. I dont count illegal immigrants so you can knock 12-18 Million off that 46 from the jump.

2) Live longer and "in better health" is false.


Wasnt aware the value of our dollar has been so low all this time (past 30 years).

I would say we pay the lowest for our goods as well in terms of food, clothing, entertainment, gasoline, cars , etc

[112480]

I would say we pay the lowest for our goods as well in terms of food, clothing, entertainment, gasoline, cars , etc

Yes mike BUT! recently our $20+ plus jobs have gone bye bye and now we're making $7-10/hr so that so called lowest goods is now EXPENSIVE for us. And like u said we have the best healthcare system BUT thats only if u can afford it! U got to remember mike that 20-30 million ppl are uninsured + u have those that r underinsured as well. In the past 30years we were the best paid workers but NOW! NO!

[112480]

define "decent compensation"

About $12-15/hr and those jobs are VERY VERY hard to get!





I would venture to say they have the best pensions and retirement plans in the world too although i have no figures for that.

HA! Mike SHOW ME what companies have pensions and retirement plans now. Ur lucky if u can keep ur job more than 5 years let alone a 30year pension plan.

Oh mike, mike if only u knew whats really going on in the real world of american labor workers.

[preferredduck]

Whats to fall for? How does the Nobel affect anything? How many people on this board can name all the recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize off the top of their heads without using Wikipedia?

In the grand scheme of things, nobody follows/pays attention to the Nobel. Add a buck fifty to it and maybe it will get you a cup of coffee. The only reason the right is even concerned with this is because there are some who feel the need to make snotty comments every single time his name is mentioned.

i don't like hardly ant poloticians not just obamammama.