Obama's "impartial" town hall meeting...

[ShooterMcGavin]

i guess this doesn't surprise me at all...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=911911&page=1

[Total_Blender]

Obama donors showing up to his town hall? Shocking! :crazy:

Its obvious the girl is reading from a card, someone probably helped her prepare the question.

The girl asked about the protesters... give her the benefit of the doubt, if the right actually had anything to offer this debate other than asshattery you all might be able to convert her. :lmfao:

[S2KJD]

Its obvious the girl is reading from a card, someone probably helped her prepare the question.


the girls mother was a huge $$$ contributer to obama's campaign so the little girl has been to every townhall he has done so believe me he knew her name. I would love obama to show up to a townhall meeting like the senators have been attending where not everyone is prescreened to be an obama ass kisser:idb:

[Total_Blender]

the girls mother was a huge $$$ contributer to obama's campaign so the little girl has been to every townhall he has done so believe me he knew her name. I would love obama to show up to a townhall meeting like the senators have been attending where not everyone is prescreened to be an obama ass kisser:idb:

Of course Obama's townhalls are going to be more tame, the secret service wouldn't risk putting him in front of an openly hostile crowd. Hell, they arrested a guy with a knife on him and an illegal handgun in his truck at Obama's town hall yesterday. The town hall was at a high school, so not only is the guy in trouble with the Secret Service (cavity search, anyone?) but he's also in trouble locally because its illegal to have knives and guns on school property.

[Total_Blender]

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20090811-NEWS-908119961

[Vteckidd]

THe problem isnt having an OBAMA supporter there, the problem is she was PLANTED.

Look i dont care if theres people out there that support the health care plan he is pushing. But Town Halls are supposed to be open to anyone. They planted this little girl whose mother is a big time Obama supporter, to do 2 things

1) Give a childs face to the cause and make it look like the "big bad republicans" are protesting out side and oh my god gee willigers why is that so Mr . Obama.

2) Gave Obama a chance to shift the meeting to blaming the republicans.

If you cant see that your head is so far up Obamas ass i cant help you. The Town Halls are hostile, its people FED up with the lies and bullshit that Washington DC is feeding us, and they want the truth, not campaign speeches. Obama wouldnt dare put himself in a situation he cant control.

[Total_Blender]

When has a president ever had a town hall that wasn't scripted, or at least managed in a fashion that the president won't be asked anything crazy?

Given the hostile environment at the Specter and McCaskel town halls last week, I am not surprised at all that the town hall was "scripted" or whatever. You're just not going to get a chance to disrespect the president in public. At all. The secret service will see to that.

[BanginJimmy]

Blender is right. After the last couple of times Obama went off teleprompter he looked like an ass they had to make sure that it didn't happen again. His image is already hurt because of Gates and healthcare, he cannot risk another hit.

[Total_Blender]

Blender is right. After the last couple of times Obama went off teleprompter he looked like an ass .

They say that the president himself has not seen the questions, but that doesn't mean that his staff haven't seen them.

He hasn't been telepromptering at the town halls.

Everyone in politics uses teleprompters. Conservatives use them as well, so its not like the Right has any moral ground on this issue.

You think your right wing "commentators" don't have some kind of scrolling text they are reading from? You think they don't have a team of people helping them write their monologues, screening their calls, etc?

[ShooterMcGavin]

no one's saying that both sides don't have teleprompters or script writers. however, the difference is that when bush was in office, everyone knew he was a dumbass that couldn't speak worth a shit and needed every bit of help he could get.

but obama, from day 1, has tried to pass himself off as some sort of smooth talking, eloquent genius. well this event, along with others recently, has outted him as being no better than bush in a lot of ways.

[S2KJD]

Of course Obama's townhalls are going to be more tame, the secret service wouldn't risk putting him in front of an openly hostile crowd. Hell, they arrested a guy with a knife on him and an illegal handgun in his truck at Obama's town hall yesterday. The town hall was at a high school, so not only is the guy in trouble with the Secret Service (cavity search, anyone?) but he's also in trouble locally because its illegal to have knives and guns on school property.

oh of course. just tired of the bs "image."

can't remember the senators name but at her townhall meeting yesterday she asked who has medicare and 80% raised their hands and then she asked who wants it to change and all most all put their hands down, but at obama's the image is portrayed that all americans are on board cause yes all attending are preselected but not all get that who are watching...

[S2KJD]

THe problem isnt having an OBAMA supporter there, the problem is she was PLANTED.

Look i dont care if theres people out there that support the health care plan he is pushing. But Town Halls are supposed to be open to anyone. They planted this little girl whose mother is a big time Obama supporter, to do 2 things

1) Give a childs face to the cause and make it look like the "big bad republicans" are protesting out side and oh my god gee willigers why is that so Mr . Obama.

2) Gave Obama a chance to shift the meeting to blaming the republicans.

If you cant see that your head is so far up Obamas ass i cant help you. The Town Halls are hostile, its people FED up with the lies and bullshit that Washington DC is feeding us, and they want the truth, not campaign speeches. Obama wouldnt dare put himself in a situation he cant control.

i should just delete my post above cause im with this guy :cheers:

[Total_Blender]

can't remember the senators name but at her townhall meeting yesterday she asked who has medicare and 80% raised their hands and then she asked who wants it to change and all most all put their hands down, ..

It was Sentaor McCaskel and that was in response to some snotty "libertarian" comment about how "the government can't do anything right". The Senator totally proved that idiot wrong lol.



but obama, from day 1, has tried to pass himself off as some sort of smooth talking, eloquent genius. well this event, along with others recently, has outted him as being no better than bush in a lot of ways.

He's far from the only politician to take screened questions. This "incident" doesn't really proven anything one way or the other about his eloquence as a speaker or his "genius". Bush couldn't even handle a "gimme" question like that without screwing up.

[BanginJimmy]

Bush also wasn't on a teleprompter at all times.

[Total_Blender]

Bush also wasn't on a teleprompter at all times.

Neither is Obama :2up:

Bush used a teleprompter. Clinton used a teleprompter. Bush 41 used a teleprompter. Reagan used IBM punch cards.

http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u69/IBM_Punch_Card.png

I think it says "Thou shalt not speak ill of thy fellow Republican."

:lmfao:

[BanginJimmy]

No one has been as dependant on teleprompter as Obama.

I don't know why I bother with you. You will never see a fault with your Savior Obama.

[eraser4g63]

Neither is Obama


Any time he doesn't he sounds like tard, Worse than bush ever dreamed of sounding.

[zspeed24]

Any time he doesn't he sounds like tard, Worse than bush ever dreamed of sounding.
:goodjob:

[Total_Blender]

Any time he doesn't he sounds like tard, Worse than bush ever dreamed of sounding.

Thats your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but I think Lou Ferigno could belch out a better speech than W could give.

[BanginJimmy]

This really shows the great orator at his finest moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJSVPAx8xc

[eraser4g63]

Point and counter point, Thank you.

[preferredduck]

his town hall meeting didn't have people asking really good questions and his answers were shaky and he never really answered them. i am going to my local town hall meeting in 4 days and im taking my camcorder.

[zspeed24]

I'd love to go to the town hall with my rep but i honestly don't think i could stomach sitting through 4 hrs of listening to David Scott scream b/c no one will listen to him. I have already gotten into it with his office in the past for putting signs in my yard without asking on 4 different occasions.

[Total_Blender]

I have already gotten into it with his office in the past for putting signs in my yard without asking on 4 different occasions.

Which one of you guys painted swastikas at David Scott's office earlier this week? I know it was probably someone on IA considering how much this place loves Glenn Beck and Alex Jones :screwy:

[zspeed24]

I guess at least the president was more courteous than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L3FnWNkIzU

[ShooterMcGavin]

This really shows the great orator at his finest moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJSVPAx8xc
oh my lulz...

[Total_Blender]

I guess at least the president was more courteous than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L3FnWNkIzU

She is divorcing and unemployed and she does NOT want a government solution.

So I take it she won't be choosing to receive unemployment compensation then?

One thing I will nitpick about Obama's stance on healthcare is that he's pretty much guaranteeing people that they can keep their existing plans. But really, the details with particular plans are up to employers/insurance companies. So people can keep their plans as long as the employers choose to provide them. But most insurance plans are raising premiums and cutting coverage, I know the insurance here did that last year (before the election, mind you). I was going to sign up for insurance... before they pulled a dick move on us.

So while we are getting the rug pulled out from under us by our insurance, we're also getting furloughs, which puts me even urther away from getting private insurance. So a public option, or some kind of subsidy voucher would be awesome in my particular case.

The people I really feel bad for are those here who make less than I do and have families to support. Between the furloughs, the rising costs of insurance, and the inflation rate, these people have been pretty much thrown to the wolves.

The main cost saving points of the bill are compromises with the insurance companies and drug companies that end government subsidies payed out to big pharma and big insurance. That will cut something like 80 billion, and the rest of the money is money that is already in the system... just shuffled around. They are saying it won't increase the deficit.

Anyway, the status quo is just not a sustainable option. And I don't see how the Teabaggers/Astroturfers/Deathers add anything to the debate except empty rhetoric about how "government is bad" and misimpretations of the Constitution that forget the commerce clause or the elastic clause. :2cents:

[zspeed24]

She is divorcing and unemployed and she does NOT want a government solution.

So I take it she won't be choosing to receive unemployment compensation then?

Unemployment benefits are payed for by the unemployment insurance taxes that EMPLOYERS pay... Just fyi

[Total_Blender]

Unemployment benefits are payed for by the unemployment insurance taxes that EMPLOYERS pay... Just fyi

Right, but the program is managed by the state government, and staffed by government employees, so it is a government program.

[zspeed24]

And the costs associated with the program are paid for by the same funds the EMPLOYER paid... Not the General fund. Employers are charged a percentage and are also charged administrative fees on top of the base. That percentage is calculated based on the claims and wages paid. These taxes are collected by both the state and the feds (SUTA and FUTA).

[Total_Blender]

And the costs associated with the program are paid for by the same funds the EMPLOYER paid... Not the General fund.

Well part of the stimulus went towards the expansion of unemployment insurance. So theres that.

Also, I don't think she said anything about kids, but if she had them I guess she wouldn't want medicaid for them either?

[TIGERJC]

I disapprove of this health care bill. I still like Obama, but like all politicians they're for the people/companies that have their wallets open. Thats why there has been no regulation of banks even though he preach that he would bring regulation back to banking.

The republicans know how to get their base active, just use these scary words like Gay marriage, 9-11, Mexicans, abortions and etc. To me this would be a great opportunity for them to shine if they proposed atleast some kind of idea to reform health care. Whether you're for this bill or not, I think we all can come to together and say that we need some kind of health care reform. The fucking politics is killing this country.

[TSiFTW]

And the costs associated with the program are paid for by the same funds the EMPLOYER paid... Not the General fund. Employers are charged a percentage and are also charged administrative fees on top of the base. That percentage is calculated based on the claims and wages paid. These taxes are collected by both the state and the feds (SUTA and FUTA).

This is 100% non debatable truth. I wouldn't try to argue this as he and I obviously own businesses and knows the procedure. The government only takes the claims amd distributes the money that the Employers pay in. You as a regular tax payer do not provide funding towards unemployment. Besides the fact that until Obama is not helping unemployment at all. Everyday more and more people are losing their jobs. Now come on and try to argue that! I dare you. If you try to argue it I want you to provide real links showing where employment is on the rise, not just give some opinionated argument. We need more real facts to try and get peoples heads out of Obama's ass so far you are blinded.

[TSiFTW]

This is 100% non debatable truth. I wouldn't try to argue this as he and I obviously own businesses and knows the procedure. The government only takes the claims amd distributes the money that the Employers pay in. You as a regular tax payer do not provide funding towards unemployment. Besides the fact that until Obama is not helping unemployment at all. Everyday more and more people are losing their jobs. Now come on and try to argue that! I dare you. If you try to argue it I want you to provide real links showing where employment is on the rise, not just give some opinionated argument. We need more real facts to try and get peoples heads out of Obama's ass so far you are blinded.

Sorry to thread jack. Just felt I needed to state that.

[zspeed24]

Well part of the stimulus went towards the expansion of unemployment insurance. So theres that.

Also, I don't think she said anything about kids, but if she had them I guess she wouldn't want medicaid for them either?

The part of the stimulus that went to unemployment was to make the benefits last longer. Up to 18 months not the standard 6. (Which to me is beyond ridiculous!)

I'm sure she would not want medicaid for her kids, for one her soon to be ex-husband probably has to maintain coverage for the children, and for two who wants to have to deal with the drama and bs it takes to have children on medicaid.

The welfare system is a failure always has been. I understand people needing help to get on their feet in the event of a loss of income, but there comes a point when enough is enough. The states should go to a welfare to work type system that gives people the option of getting a job to begin transitioning off the system or puts them to work for the state doing some form of community service.

BTW, Blender was her opposition to the healthcare reform act the only thing you saw wrong in that video?

[Total_Blender]

BTW, Blender was her opposition to the healthcare reform act the only thing you saw wrong in that video?

Politicians are busy people. You don't know what she was on the phone about. Could have been her sick kid or something.

The congresswoman did turn to the woman and listen when the woman started to ask the question instead of spewing rhetoric.

..............................

Here's an excerpt from the only non-Fox News source covering this incident:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2009/08/post_16.html#more
Jackson Lee explained she was on her cell phone during Tuesday's town hall meeting because she had called the House health care hotline seeking answers to a number of questions about particular elements of the health care bill moving through Congress.



"I had been on the cell phone getting a series of questions answered," Jackson Lee said. "I don't know why [Republicans think] it's so challenging. I happen to be able to think, listen and maybe even talk at the same time."
............................................
Yes I know thats from a blog, but really this incident is only a big deal to Republibots. Rep Jackson Lee is doing another town hall tonight and over a dozen in the next couple of weeks. Many congressmen aren't doing town halls AT ALL.

And whats more, this lady was NOT one of Rep. Jackson Lee's constituents. For those of you who don't know, Rep Jackson Lee represents the 5th Ward of Houston. She got 77% of the vote at her last election. :goodjob:

[zspeed24]

Where exactly did you read she wasn't one of her constituents if it was from the blog you linked to it says...

"The constituent, identified as Tracy Miller on a video posted on YouTube, was well into her question about health-care reform when she realized Jackson Lee was talking on her cell phone."

And i'm sure she can multi-task but the call could have been made at a different time. All she needed to do was be courteous to her constituents.

The left has resorted to calling people that disagree with this policy Hate mongers, fear mongers, brown shirts (Nazi Gaurds), lynch mobs, etc. When in reality all the people are trying to do is get their voices heard! After all that is a fundamental right of American CITIZENS isn't it

[Total_Blender]

Where exactly did you read she wasn't one of her constituents

I'm glad you asked that because it was actually Fox News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXbOmpJfjoY

2:08 in this video the lady tells Greta that she thanked Rep Jackson Lee for opening the town hall to people who were not her constituents.

[zspeed24]

But she didn't state that she was one of the non constituents present. That is kind of a moot point anyway because even if she was not a constituent she still deserved to be treated with respect, also if you continue through the interview with Greta you will hear Ms. Miller say that she was not the only one who was treated this way.

[zspeed24]

Interview with Rep Jackson-Lee... You have to be kidding me!! (from CNN not FOX)

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=GdnzuzaGkU

[preferredduck]

She is divorcing and unemployed and she does NOT want a government solution.

So I take it she won't be choosing to receive unemployment compensation then?

One thing I will nitpick about Obama's stance on healthcare is that he's pretty much guaranteeing people that they can keep their existing plans. But really, the details with particular plans are up to employers/insurance companies. So people can keep their plans as long as the employers choose to provide them. But most insurance plans are raising premiums and cutting coverage, I know the insurance here did that last year (before the election, mind you). I was going to sign up for insurance... before they pulled a dick move on us.

So while we are getting the rug pulled out from under us by our insurance, we're also getting furloughs, which puts me even urther away from getting private insurance. So a public option, or some kind of subsidy voucher would be awesome in my particular case.

The people I really feel bad for are those here who make less than I do and have families to support. Between the furloughs, the rising costs of insurance, and the inflation rate, these people have been pretty much thrown to the wolves.

The main cost saving points of the bill are compromises with the insurance companies and drug companies that end government subsidies payed out to big pharma and big insurance. That will cut something like 80 billion, and the rest of the money is money that is already in the system... just shuffled around. They are saying it won't increase the deficit.

Anyway, the status quo is just not a sustainable option. And I don't see how the Teabaggers/Astroturfers/Deathers add anything to the debate except empty rhetoric about how "government is bad" and misimpretations of the Constitution that forget the commerce clause or the elastic clause. :2cents:


here is one thing obama keeps saying is people will have to pay for the gov't insurance like a premium. most of the uninsured could not afford an extra $10 a month for healthcare so how would that work. then there would be a copay of sorts, deductables, etc.

and honestly do you think the insurance companies would be endorsing the plan if they are not making a chunk of money somehow. look at medicare and medicaid. they are both in the same cookie jar with insurance companies. united healthcare does alot of medicare work along with BCBS. also there really isn't this great plan set in stone and the tab on the bill is outragous.

-on that note would you loan me $20,000 for a business idea i have involving making greener cars. it will improve mileage and cut down greenhouse gases and save the planet. loan it to me no now now and i'll tell you more about it after you give me the money. does that sound familiar, like a bailout maybe.

[Total_Blender]

here is one thing obama keeps saying is people will have to pay for the gov't insurance like a premium. most of the uninsured could not afford an extra $10 a month for healthcare so how would that work. then there would be a copay of sorts, deductables, etc.
.

I can almost afford health insurance. Really I could afford it now, but I would have to go on food stamps. Eventually I will get to the point where I can afford it, once I get my degree in December and hopefully the pay-grade increase (or a move to a better job) that comes with it for Fy '11.

I wouldn't mind paying a small premium, maybe 1/2 or even 3/4 what the insurance my employer offers costs. I am not expecting to get something for free.

[BanginJimmy]

I would like a new XLR for the same payment as an Aveo too. Should the govtr subsidize that also?

[Total_Blender]

I would like a new XLR for the same payment as an Aveo too. Should the govtr subsidize that also?

Depends on whether you're trade in qualifies. :ninja::lmfao:

[zspeed24]

Why should the govt. have to pay for even part of your health care or your food for that matter. If you cannot afford the things you need shouldn't you work harder find a better paying job or maybe even work a second part time job.

[BanginJimmy]

Depends on whether you're trade in qualifies. :ninja::lmfao:
Touche

[ultm8mind]

They've failed to put out the clause that the same politicians putting this Health Care Plan into effect are exempt from it (to include the Pres.)......food for thought

[ultm8mind]

Why should the govt. have to pay for even part of your health care or your food for that matter. If you cannot afford the things you need shouldn't you work harder find a better paying job or maybe even work a second part time job.
Are you serious?

[BanginJimmy]

Are you serious?

Yea cause expecting people to take care of themselves is just a crazy statement.

[zspeed24]

Are you serious?

As a matter of fact I am i would much rather sit at home and get free money but instead i choose to work 60-70 hours a week so i can provide for my family pay our bills buy our food and guess what we pay for our own health care too, out of our own pocket!

[Total_Blender]

If you cannot afford the things you need shouldn't you work harder find a better paying job or maybe even work a second part time job.

Working harder isn't going to benefit me as far as salary goes until the end of the fiscal year when raises are handed out. Really, we're all getting furloughs which are pretty much the same as a 3%-6% pay cut. No one in a non-administrative position got a raise for FY09 and '10 is doubtful for raises as well.

All the while the administration is telling us to "continue to work at maximum efficiency". Our president, meanwhile, got a raise that amounts to double my salary. Its god damn heartwarming to know that GA's largest university is being run like AIG, let me tell you. :rolleyes:

As far as better paying jobs go, the whole university system is pretty much in a hiring freeze. So I there are no jobs available in my field at all. I'm lucky to have a job at all. Three people above me just left, and they aren't even going to open those positions because there is no money for those salaries. So as far as "work harder" goes... I've got that covered since I have to do their work now. :lmfao:

I can't change fields because my job is paying for school full ride (which is the only benefit I have thats worth a damn:goodjob:).

Second job is impossible right now because I'm already doing full time work and half time school. I did have a second job last year and made awesome money then, but I need to finish school if I want any sort of career advancement.

[TSiFTW]

Are you serious?


I can foresee a great future for you.:no: I would think with your age and career you would have a better outlook than that. And on a serious note, thank you for serving our country. Seriously.:goodjob:

[TSiFTW]

Working harder isn't going to benefit me as far as salary goes until the end of the fiscal year when raises are handed out. Really, we're all getting furloughs which are pretty much the same as a 3%-6% pay cut. No one in a non-administrative position got a raise for FY09 and '10 is doubtful for raises as well.

All the while the administration is telling us to "continue to work at maximum efficiency". Our president, meanwhile, got a raise that amounts to double my salary. Its god damn heartwarming to know that GA's largest university is being run like AIG, let me tell you. :rolleyes:

As far as better paying jobs go, the whole university system is pretty much in a hiring freeze. So I there are no jobs available in my field at all. I'm lucky to have a job at all. Three people above me just left, and they aren't even going to open those positions because there is no money for those salaries. So as far as "work harder" goes... I've got that covered since I have to do their work now. :lmfao:

I can't change fields because my job is paying for school full ride (which is the only benefit I have thats worth a damn:goodjob:).

Second job is impossible right now because I'm already doing full time work and half time school. I did have a second job last year and made awesome money then, but I need to finish school if I want any sort of career advancement.

I am sorry, but if I have to work 3 jobs to make sure my family is taken care of then so be it. I want no handouts from anyone. I feel sorry for a lot of people if something ever happened and it reverted back to a fend for yourself world. I just have to much pride for it. If I was forced too then I would take disability, but I would never take welfare because I didn't wanna try harder. I would rather sleep under a bridge.

[ultm8mind]

I can foresee a great future for you.:no:
I, my friend, am very successful. On the other hand not everyone is as fortunate as me. I was speaking for those who are unemployed trying to get a job and just can't. But hey, think what you want cause you are obviously a millionaire.

[TSiFTW]

I, my friend, am very successful. On the other hand not everyone is as fortunate as me. I was speaking for those who are unemployed trying to get a job and just can't. But hey, think what you want cause you are obviously a millionaire.

Is it beneath anyone to get a second part time job at anywhere they can find though? I think not. If I had to there are numerous places within 5 miles of me that hire all the time. Yea some might be fast food, but if a little money helps take care of my family then so be it. If you have nothing then a little is better. At least you can feel proud for earning it instead of having it given to you. Also read my edit on my earlier post you quoted. :goodjob:

[zspeed24]

Working harder isn't going to benefit me as far as salary goes until the end of the fiscal year when raises are handed out. Really, we're all getting furloughs which are pretty much the same as a 3%-6% pay cut. No one in a non-administrative position got a raise for FY09 and '10 is doubtful for raises as well.

All the while the administration is telling us to "continue to work at maximum efficiency". Our president, meanwhile, got a raise that amounts to double my salary. Its god damn heartwarming to know that GA's largest university is being run like AIG, let me tell you. :rolleyes:

As far as better paying jobs go, the whole university system is pretty much in a hiring freeze. So I there are no jobs available in my field at all. I'm lucky to have a job at all. Three people above me just left, and they aren't even going to open those positions because there is no money for those salaries. So as far as "work harder" goes... I've got that covered since I have to do their work now. :lmfao:

I can't change fields because my job is paying for school full ride (which is the only benefit I have thats worth a damn:goodjob:).

Second job is impossible right now because I'm already doing full time work and half time school. I did have a second job last year and made awesome money then, but I need to finish school if I want any sort of career advancement.


You are still making the CHOICE to stay where you are. And more than likely the three peoples jobs that you are now doing probably should have been done by one person anyway and that is why they are not hiring anyone. Its like the UAW workers is there really a need for one guy to turn a wrench and another to wait and see if person #1 drops the wrench so that person #2 can pick up the wrench... NO!!! Our generation has been trained to be lazy and its way past time for people to learn what REAL work is again!!!!!

[TSiFTW]

You are still making the CHOICE to stay where you are. And more than likely the three peoples jobs that you are now doing probably should have been done by one person anyway and that is why they are not hiring anyone. Its like the UAW workers is there really a need for one guy to turn a wrench and another to wait and see if person #1 drops the wrench so that person #2 can pick up the wrench... NO!!! Our generation has been trained to be lazy and its way past time for people to learn what REAL work is again!!!!!


Oh lawd:eek:. Please lets not get started on the piece of crap Unions. Tis bad enough it got started on the waste that is Welfare.:cry:

[Total_Blender]

I am sorry, but if I have to work 3 jobs to make sure my family is taken care of then so be it. I want no handouts from anyone. I feel sorry for a lot of people if something ever happened and it reverted back to a fend for yourself world. I just have to much pride for it. If I was forced too then I would take disability, but I would never take welfare because I didn't wanna try harder. I would rather sleep under a bridge.

I never said I had a family Space Cadet. All that will come later when I finish school, buy a home, have proper health care (however I have to get it), etc. :goodjob:

I'm all about self-sufficiency, and I'm working as hard as I can to support myself with long term goals. But at the same time I know there are people in worse circumstances than I am and I would like to think more can be done for them that telling them to sleep under a bridge or some shit. I don't have the "I'm better than you because I'm better off" mentality that most people on the right seem to have.

[ultm8mind]

Is it beneath anyone to get a second part time job at anywhere they can find though? I think not. If I had to there are numerous places within 5 miles of me that hire all the time. Yea some might be fast food, but if a little money helps take care of my family then so be it. If you have nothing then a little is better. At least you can feel proud for earning it instead of having it given to you. Also read my edit on my earlier post you quoted. :goodjob:
I saw it man, thanks. I think alot of people think it is beneath them to work at a fast food place. Is it beneath me? Not at all, by no means would I allow my family to suffer. As for my outlook on this subject, it doesn't come from me ever taking a handout. EVER, but there are some that need it. There are also the MAJORITY who need to get off their asses and get a job, regardless of the job it is. Get two if you need to, I have before. But like I said, I didn't voice out for me, I spoke because good jobs seem to be getting scarce. I don't have to worry about it but see those who do.
If I had to I'd start at the bottom, it would suck but I've been the low man on the totem pole before, I am not anymore, but I've been there. I now lead Soldiers into combat, just got back less than a year ago and will be going back again this fall. So, trust me, my money is earned and yes I get upset by the people that are abusing the system, but I cannot do anything about that....

[TSiFTW]

I saw it man, thanks. I think alot of people think it is beneath them to work at a fast food place. Is it beneath me? Not at all, by no means would I allow my family to suffer. As for my outlook on this subject, it doesn't come from me ever taking a handout. EVER, but there are some that need it. There are also the MAJORITY who need to get off their asses and get a job, regardless of the job it is. Get two if you need to, I have before. But like I said, I didn't voice out for me, I spoke because good jobs seem to be getting scarce. I don't have to worry about it but see those who do.
If I had to I'd start at the bottom, it would suck but I've been the low man on the totem pole before, I am not anymore, but I've been there. I now lead Soldiers into combat, just got back less than a year ago and will be going back again this fall. So, trust me, my money is earned and yes I get upset by the people that are abusing the system, but I cannot do anything about that....

:goodjob: It sucks to see the system abused. I figured you were doing ok. That is why I edited the post. I wont argue some people may need it, I just hate to see it abused.

[Total_Blender]

its way past time for people to learn what REAL work is again!!!!!

Please tell me what REAL WORK is because I so want to know what you (and the rest of the right wing) are doing that is more legitimate work than what I do, or what the people here who take out the trash, mop the floors, and scrub the toilets do. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing that most of you guys work in an office setting given your ability to respond to my posts during worktime hours. How is what you right-wingers all do work and what I do not work when we probably have very similar tasks? I'm guessing we are all sitting in front of computers sorting through screens full of numbers, correct?

[TSiFTW]

I never said I had a family Space Cadet. All that will come later when I finish school, buy a home, have proper health care (however I have to get it), etc. :goodjob:

I'm all about self-sufficiency, and I'm working as hard as I can to support myself with long term goals. But at the same time I know there are people in worse circumstances than I am and I would like to think more can be done for them that telling them to sleep under a bridge or some shit. I don't have the "I'm better than you because I'm better off" mentality that most people on the right seem to have.

At least you try. That is all I ask. Seeing the welfare system abused enrages me probably more than anything else in this world though. I am a pretty relaxed chill guy that will listen to all sides, but I cannot stand to see people highly capable of working that refuse too because the Government gives them there "check". This issue opens up a whole other can of worms for me though and I do not have the time or patience to talk about it on IA, so I am through with this topic for now.

[ultm8mind]

I hear you the abusers need to be dropped off the Life Support System our government has put in place. The ones who need it can stay on it. It is upsetting, almost as upsetting as a fat person on the scooters in Walmart, or wait as equally upsetting. U.S. has gotten out of control with this type of stuff....

[TSiFTW]

Please tell me what REAL WORK is because I so want to know what you (and the rest of the right wing) are doing that is more legitimate work than what I do, or what the people here who take out the trash, mop the floors, and scrub the toilets do. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing that most of you guys work in an office setting given your ability to respond to my posts during worktime hours. How is what you right-wingers all do work and what I do not work when we probably have very similar tasks? I'm guessing we are all sitting in front of computers sorting through screens full of numbers, correct?

Dude. Really? If you just weren't looking for an argument from the "right-wingers" which I happen to know he IS NOT(a hardcore right, just swings slightly right on most topics), and actually take time to read the posts and comprehend them you would fully see he is talking in general not to YOU. He probably realizes you work and have a good job.

[ultm8mind]

Please tell me what REAL WORK is because I so want to know what you (and the rest of the right wing) are doing that is more legitimate work than what I do, or what the people here who take out the trash, mop the floors, and scrub the toilets do. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing that most of you guys work in an office setting given your ability to respond to my posts during worktime hours. How is what you right-wingers all do work and what I do not work when we probably have very similar tasks? I'm guessing we are all sitting in front of computers sorting through screens full of numbers, correct?
....before I go. I'll let you know what I do. I am in the Army, and this week we are prepping for Iraq. Is that a worthy occupation? It was my lunch break; my time to check what new tasks needed to be done and ofcourse I get to check this out. But hopefully my job is a REAL WORKING job, maybe not, I don't know......

[TSiFTW]

....before I go. I'll let you know what I do. I am in the Army, and this week we are prepping for Iraq. Is that a worthy occupation? It was my lunch break; my time to check what new tasks needed to be done and ofcourse I get to check this out. But hopefully my job is a REAL WORKING job, maybe not, I don't know......


As long as you work and try your best you are all right with me:goodjob:.

[Total_Blender]

But hopefully my job is a REAL WORKING job, maybe not, I don't know......

We're cool man, I wasn't talking to any of you guys specifically. Personally I believe the military deserve everything they get. :goodjob:

I've had 3 jobs at one time before. And I would have 2 now if I wasn't in school. To me theres a sharp distinction between a job and a career, and I'm shooting for the latter.

[zspeed24]

Please tell me what REAL WORK is because I so want to know what you (and the rest of the right wing) are doing that is more legitimate work than what I do, or what the people here who take out the trash, mop the floors, and scrub the toilets do. :rolleyes:

I'm guessing that most of you guys work in an office setting given your ability to respond to my posts during worktime hours. How is what you right-wingers all do work and what I do not work when we probably have very similar tasks? I'm guessing we are all sitting in front of computers sorting through screens full of numbers, correct?

Real work is actually EARNING money instead of getting it for free. I am not talking about the unfortunate people that are recieving unemployment benefits and looking for work. I don't care what anyone does as long as they are working, a job is a job, but sometimes you do in fact need more than one income.

I have worked in a machine shop since i was 12 years old, paying taxes and all. It is a manual labor job. Yes it is a family business, a family business that i now run and hope to get to leave to my son and my much younger brother. I am able to message back so quickly because for the most part i have a computer close by. I work from 4:30 am to 4:00 pm six to seven days a week.

As far as me being a right winger TSIFTW has it right. Most people would think that i should be a liberal because of my childhood but my single mom NEVER received any form of welfare she did work at a minimum of two jobs and most of the time three(this was before we moved to georgia and before she joined the family business.) She instilled in me the desire to work and earn my own way.

I don't believe religion has any place in politics. I'm pro-choice. I believe in equal rights for all Americans. I don't have any quams with gay and lesbians getting married, etc.

I don't believe that the government belongs in my personal life. I am a firm believer in the second amendment. I think the public education system is garbage and in more need of an overhaul than health care. And most of all am against all forms of entitlement programs and free welfare, remember though i have posted before that i am not opposed to a welfare to work type system.

I consider myself a conservative independent.

[preferredduck]

Which one of you guys painted swastikas at David Scott's office earlier this week? I know it was probably someone on IA considering how much this place loves Glenn Beck and Alex Jones :screwy:

that guy from valkyrie did it. :ninja:

[zspeed24]

^X2

[preferredduck]

I can almost afford health insurance. Really I could afford it now, but I would have to go on food stamps. Eventually I will get to the point where I can afford it, once I get my degree in December and hopefully the pay-grade increase (or a move to a better job) that comes with it for Fy '11.

I wouldn't mind paying a small premium, maybe 1/2 or even 3/4 what the insurance my employer offers costs. I am not expecting to get something for free.

sadly most supporters of the plan don't have a brain and think it is going to be free. did you guys know that BCBS and UHC underwrite all medicare claims and some medicaid claims. this is why im saying the price may go down but there will be more denials of service. take my neck for example, i have a pinched nerve at c5-c6 which causes a constant headache. with my insurance that i paid $360/month for for just me i could not get approved for trigger point injections which in turn would mean less medicine i have to take daily. watch the movie sicko and see some of the other things denied by insurance. and let me tell you to the gov't it will be the bottom line on who lives and who dies and after a certain age we cost them money.

i am very glad this bill was not pushed through before recess and we the people actually have time to read it. i mean it's alot of $$.

this is what i mean by everyone thinks it will be free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosear ch%3Fq%3Dobama%2Bwill%2Bpay%2Bmy%2Bmortgage%26hl%3 Den%26emb%3D0%26aq%3Df&feature=player_embedded

[preferredduck]

Why should the govt. have to pay for even part of your health care or your food for that matter. If you cannot afford the things you need shouldn't you work harder find a better paying job or maybe even work a second part time job.

well when unemployment is at 20% then it becomes harder to find a job. i know 4 people who have college degrees and are working at fast food joints because there are no jobs, just like there is no spoon.

[preferredduck]

I hear you the abusers need to be dropped off the Life Support System our government has put in place. The ones who need it can stay on it. It is upsetting, almost as upsetting as a fat person on the scooters in Walmart, or wait as equally upsetting. U.S. has gotten out of control with this type of stuff....


you can start doing this by going through loan folders at world finance. when i worked there a few years ago 70% of our customers were in dissability b/c their anti-depression meds made them drowsy. BS i had one guy tell me that since i take pain meds i could do it to but guess what i don't. i only take oxycodone, soma, and valium for a pinched nerve in my neck and work just fine.

[preferredduck]

....before I go. I'll let you know what I do. I am in the Army, and this week we are prepping for Iraq. Is that a worthy occupation? It was my lunch break; my time to check what new tasks needed to be done and ofcourse I get to check this out. But hopefully my job is a REAL WORKING job, maybe not, I don't know......

no way man thats not a real job!! j/k on that that is a tough and deadly job and is severly underpaid even with the hazard pay. my dad is retired military and the pay sucked until he became an E-9. good luck in iraq and if you can geton IA do so i hear they are getting rid of facebook and twitter for the troops. something about censoring info the troops get over there. good luck man.

[ultm8mind]

I will if I can....

[preferredduck]

I will if I can....

i hope so man. i know two people who have been to iraq and they both are in afghan right now and it really sucks because sometimes i wonder if some "insurgents" are not just really pissed off natives who want us out and would not be fighting if we were not there. think about it if the same thing happened in the US. hell they are already calling anyone in the NRA, likes the 2nd amendment, etc a domestic terrorist or we are in a militia group.

[David88vert]

One of the problems with our health car system is the insurance costs. Part of the reason that costs are so high is because people do not understand what insurance is actually for.
If you go to get your oil changed, should your insurance company pay for it? What about a tune-up? New tires? No, of course not, those are maintenance items, and people understand that you pay that out of pockets.
Amazingly, these are the same people that think that normal checkups should be 100% reimbursed.
The reality is that if everyone chose insurance that would cover major problems/surgery, and they paid the regular office visits, small non-critical emergencies, etc., out of pocket, they would pay a LOT less for insurance.

[BanginJimmy]

One of the problems with our health car system is the insurance costs. Part of the reason that costs are so high is because people do not understand what insurance is actually for.
If you go to get your oil changed, should your insurance company pay for it? What about a tune-up? New tires? No, of course not, those are maintenance items, and people understand that you pay that out of pockets.
Amazingly, these are the same people that think that normal checkups should be 100% reimbursed.
The reality is that if everyone chose insurance that would cover major problems/surgery, and they paid the regular office visits, small non-critical emergencies, etc., out of pocket, they would pay a LOT less for insurance.


I agree that if those that could afford it would start using a major medical plan would significantly lower costs, but that is only a portion of the issue. I would also like to see more insurance companies offering husband and wife only plans. That would also significantly lower my insurance costs. I am looking at the same rates for me and the wife as someone with a family of 6 is paying.

You have indigent care at hospitals. Hospitals spend alot of money to get people better even though they know they will never be paid for the services. This is something that will never go away.

Medicare. Most doctors that accept medicare are not paid the real costs of the services. That is illegal price fixing at its finest. These docs are then forced to raise rates on private insurance to recove the losses incurred by accepting medicare.

Torts. With the HUGE judgments coming down in malpractice suits docs are forced to keep insane amounts of coverage. The insurance companies also know this and they charge heavily for that coverage. Here is an article from 2002 about OBGYN's in rural areas that paints the picture.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/ric/ricpubs/RHNsprsum02.htm


Add all of these things together and then add it govt control and all I can see is one simple time line.

1. Govt option is introduced
2. most companies drop private insurance and pay the flat 8% fine instead of the added taxes on health benefits AND paying for health benefits.
3. The govt cannot afford everyone in the system so they start cutting payments.
4. A shortage of docs because of the far lower salaries, increased insurance costs, higher workload.
5. Fraudulent companies spring up everywhere, just like the are with medicare. Fraud alone tops 100B a year. (about 2/3rds of what Obama says healthcare will cost in total)
6. Massive rationing measures have to be taken. Put simply, by the time you reach retirement age, and you are no longer a contributing member of society, a member of Obama's medical advisory panel, Ezekiel Emanuel, thinks you should be cut off from medical care other than pain meds.

[David88vert]

Now Obama is setting up to possibly backpedal on the government-run health care plan.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/the-note-pulling-plugs-public-option-on-life-support-as-obama-tests-loyalties-on-his-left.html

[BanginJimmy]

You have cabinet members saying just about everything right now. I dont think anyone knows where this is going and I think Obama is simply playing both sides. I also think that this could be the straw that defeats nationalized healthcare though. No one on the democratic side wants to be left on the wrong side of this and no one knows which way it will go yet.

[zspeed24]

You have cabinet members saying just about everything right now. I dont think anyone knows where this is going and I think Obama is simply playing both sides. I also think that this could be the straw that defeats nationalized healthcare though. No one on the democratic side wants to be left on the wrong side of this and no one knows which way it will go yet.

We can only hope this ends. I fear what will come after this if it does pass.

[TSiFTW]

At least the U.S. now has Czars.:rolleyes: I know, it's random but WTF I'll throw it in anyways.

[zspeed24]

I was reading about the new Corporate Pay Czar today... Which is still a crazy thing to me. I understand there should be oversight with the companies that received TARP and other bailout money but who honestly believes salary caps will end there for corporations in America. Why even go into business if you will be limited as to how much money you can make?

[bu villain]

Wow...somehow TARP and Czars got brought into this?
...
anyways
...
One of the biggest problems with this health care issue is that it's an incredibly complex thing that involves a lot of unknowns and things that are hard to quantify. People seem to be listening more to politicians and political commentators than to doctors and economists. That's why you hear so many complaints about things that aren't even in the bill (e.g. death panels). I'm not implying there aren't plenty of reasonable objections out there, just that those aren't getting as much attention as the bullshit. Neither side has convinced me yet.

[zspeed24]

Wow...somehow TARP and Czars got brought into this?
...
anyways
...
One of the biggest problems with this health care issue is that it's an incredibly complex thing that involves a lot of unknowns and things that are hard to quantify. People seem to be listening more to politicians and political commentators than to doctors and economists. That's why you hear so many complaints about things that aren't even in the bill (e.g. death panels). I'm not implying there aren't plenty of reasonable objections out there, just that those aren't getting as much attention as the bullshit. Neither side has convinced me yet.

I posted this in a previous thread my biggest problem with this health care plan is rationing of services, not to mention the enormous debt that we will all incur and have to repay by paying higher taxes.

"Have you ever known someone that had to use another countries "universal(socialized)" health plan. I have family that lives in Ireland they have this kind of system. One of my in laws has had polio since she was a child and since this system has been started she can no longer recieve the treatment she is supposed to get to maintain a semi-normal life in the assisted living facility that she lives in. they now have deemed her to have lived far past her expected life span and have taken away 95 percent of her meds... all except her pain meds. I also had an uncle who had a hernia that needed surgery but because he wasn't a laborer and he worked in an office he was forced to wait nine months to recieve the surgery. Is this really the kind of system we need here. personally if i am sick and i need to be treated i should be able to get the treatment i need as soon as I can.
Just my exp/op though."

[BanginJimmy]

Wow...somehow TARP and Czars got brought into this?
...
anyways
...
One of the biggest problems with this health care issue is that it's an incredibly complex thing that involves a lot of unknowns and things that are hard to quantify. People seem to be listening more to politicians and political commentators than to doctors and economists. That's why you hear so many complaints about things that aren't even in the bill (e.g. death panels). I'm not implying there aren't plenty of reasonable objections out there, just that those aren't getting as much attention as the bullshit. Neither side has convinced me yet.


Doctors and economists have been quoted a few times in various threads. They all pretty much say the same things though.

Economists tell us that Obama's numbers dont work out and that socialized healthcare will cost about double what Obama's predictions say. They also say that Obama's cost savings will do little to nothing to offset costs and may even make it more expensive.

Doctors are telling us that tort law, malpractice insurance, and price fixing(medicare) are major factors in driving up costs. The only factor addressed in the current bill is medicare payments which this bill cuts. That would actually make the problem worse, not better.

What do you need to be convinced?

Costs? medicare was expected to cost about 100B over 10 years when it first came into effect, the real costs was about 9x that. In fact, every year medicare and medicaid pay out about 70B in fraudulent claims.

Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care. Then combine that with the quality of service that you get at the DMV and there you have it. It will take about 2 years and 2 trillion dollars before the first priority of socialized heathcare will be cost savings, quality will be a distant second.

[Total_Blender]

Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care.

Most people I know on Medicare/Medicaid are OK with the quality of care. And my dad and the other vets I know seem to like the VA (granted, Dad used to complain A LOT 5-6 years ago when he was fighting them over his Agent Orange benefits, but they have gotten better recently).

Rationing, quality of care, etc I really don't see how those are any different than what you'd get with a private insurance company. Private insurance denies treatments and "pulls the plug" on people all the time. :crazy:

[zspeed24]

So do you think that if someone needs a hip or knee replacement now would get rejected because they are obese? No, but i will promise you that with Obamacare they would because eventually they will need it again.

[Total_Blender]

I like how you guys are calling it Obamacare, when really its Congress who are working on the bills. Granted, they are working with the president, but ultimately Obama is not the main player in this issue, Congress will write the bill and (hopefully) pass it, Obama will just sign it.

The hell of it is that Congress is working hard to include the Republicans like Sen. Isakson, Baucus, and Grassley in the process, but these guys bring nothing to the table.

[David88vert]

Rationing, quality of care, etc I really don't see how those are any different than what you'd get with a private insurance company. Private insurance denies treatments and "pulls the plug" on people all the time. :crazy:

Obama's healthcare bill does not rule out rationing, so people want to know what the rationing limits are before this kind of healthcare plan is enacted nationally. Is that too much to ask? So far, Democrats have been systematically side-stepping the question.

Good read on reality. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html

[zspeed24]

I don't know about the others but pretty sure Isakson wanted nothing to do with this bill...



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Tuesday, August 11, 2009

Isakson Denounces White House Comments Connecting Him
To Terribly Flawed House Health Care Bill
‘This Is What Happens When the President and Members of Congress Don’t Read the Bills’

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Johnny Isakson, R-Ga., today denounced comments made by President Obama and his spokesman regarding Isakson’s alleged connection to language contained in the House health care bill on “end-of-life counseling.”

Isakson vehemently opposes the House and Senate health care bills and he played no role in drafting language in the House bill calling for the government to expand Medicare and incentivize doctors by offering them extra money to conduct “end-of-life counseling” with Medicare patients every five years on an extensive list of required topics.

By contrast, Isakson took a very different approach in July during the Senate HELP Committee hearings on the Senate version of the health care bill. Isakson’s amendment to the Senate bill says that anyone who participates in the long-term care benefit in which they put their own money into a health savings account may use their money in this account – if they so choose -- to obtain legal assistance in formulating their own living will and durable power of attorney. Unlike the House bill, Isakson’s amendment would not expand Medicare and would not prescribe any topics that must be discussed.

Isakson’s amendment, which was accepted unanimously by all Republicans and Democrats on the Senate HELP Committee, empowers the individual to make their own choices on these critical issues, rather than the government incentivizing doctors to conduct counseling on government-mandated topics. Isakson ultimately voted against the Senate health care bill.

“This is what happens when the President and members of Congress don’t read the bills. The White House and others are merely attempting to deflect attention from the intense negativity caused by their unpopular policies. I never consulted with the White House in this process and had no role whatsoever in the House Democrats’ bill. I categorically oppose the House bill and find it incredulous that the White House and others would use my amendment as a scapegoat for their misguided policies,” Isakson said. “My Senate amendment simply puts health care choices back in the hands of the individual and allows them to consider if they so choose a living will or durable power of attorney. The House provision is merely another ill-advised attempt at more government mandates, more government intrusion, and more government involvement in what should be an individual choice.”

[zspeed24]

And honestly who are you kidding that this is not Obamas plan.... Just like michelle sending paitents away from her hospital and sending them to clinics because they didn't have insurance. She was trying to keep her hospital from showing losses because the people wouldn't be able to pay.

[bu villain]

I posted this in a previous thread my biggest problem with this health care plan is rationing of services, not to mention the enormous debt that we will all incur and have to repay by paying higher taxes.

"Have you ever known someone that had to use another countries "universal(socialized)" health plan. I have family that lives in Ireland they have this kind of system. One of my in laws has had polio since she was a child and since this system has been started she can no longer recieve the treatment she is supposed to get to maintain a semi-normal life in the assisted living facility that she lives in. they now have deemed her to have lived far past her expected life span and have taken away 95 percent of her meds... all except her pain meds. I also had an uncle who had a hernia that needed surgery but because he wasn't a laborer and he worked in an office he was forced to wait nine months to recieve the surgery. Is this really the kind of system we need here. personally if i am sick and i need to be treated i should be able to get the treatment i need as soon as I can.
Just my exp/op though."

I haven't seen a definite method of rationing service yet so I can't say whether I will agree or disagree with how they do it. What I do know is that private insurance companies currently ration services. The less service they have to pay for the more money they make. Insurance companies incentives are directly in opposition with people receiving care.

As far as knowing someone who lived under a "socialized" system...yes I personally lived under one in South Korea. Waits for doctors was usually almost non existant even for minor issues (e.g. colds). I had a friend go to the ER after a soccer injury requiring stiches, he was admitted immediately and given a bed. Another friend received an MRI for a few hundred bucks compared to a thousand or more here. You can't lump all universal systems together as if they were the same. (BTW, Korean taxes are around 20-25%)

[bu villain]

Doctors and economists have been quoted a few times in various threads. They all pretty much say the same things though.

Economists tell us that Obama's numbers dont work out and that socialized healthcare will cost about double what Obama's predictions say. They also say that Obama's cost savings will do little to nothing to offset costs and may even make it more expensive.

You think Obama is pulling his numbers out of his ass? He has economists who tell him what they think it'll cost. My point is that, not all economists agree but that too many people (not saying you are one of them) are complaining over talking points (e.g. death panels) which are not legitimate and it takes away from the legitimate concerns. I believe cost is a legitimate concern.


Doctors are telling us that tort law, malpractice insurance, and price fixing(medicare) are major factors in driving up costs. The only factor addressed in the current bill is medicare payments which this bill cuts. That would actually make the problem worse, not better.

I am 100% in favor of tort reform. It would be great if something like that could be added to this bill. If its not then hopefully another bill very soon.


What do you need to be convinced?

Costs? medicare was expected to cost about 100B over 10 years when it first came into effect, the real costs was about 9x that. In fact, every year medicare and medicaid pay out about 70B in fraudulent claims.

I personally don't feel well enough informed of what the true cost would be and so I can't make a fully informed decision. Even if Obama's estimate is wrong, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't worth the cost. Also, instead of just throwing out a big number (70B) how about comparing it to on a per capita basis to what private insurers pay out in fraudulent claims. That would be a much more useful indicator.


Quality? Ask anyone on medicare and medicaid how they feel about the quality of care. Then combine that with the quality of service that you get at the DMV and there you have it. It will take about 2 years and 2 trillion dollars before the first priority of socialized heathcare will be cost savings, quality will be a distant second.

In my experience, people on medicare and medicaid are about as happy with it as people who are on private insurance plans.

[zspeed24]

In my experience, people on medicare and medicaid are about as happy with it as people who are on private insurance plans.

Most of these people have to pay for a suplimental insurance in order for everything to remain covered.

[bu villain]

Most of these people have to pay for a suplimental insurance in order for everything to remain covered.

Which is exactly why I think private insurance and a public option can coexist. The public option could cover a more basic level of coverage and then people can go to private companies to go above and beyond. The hard part is striking the right balance.

[David88vert]

Which is exactly why I think private insurance and a public option can coexist. The public option could cover a more basic level of coverage and then people can go to private companies to go above and beyond. The hard part is striking the right balance.

That is the only reasonable government involved option. That is possibly doable (key work possilby) if only the most basic life saving operations/treatment were covered for citizens and documented aliens (those here legally). Anything not critical would be covered privately.
Of course, emergency care cannot be denied currently, so why do we need more money thrown at it, and more government intervention?

[BanginJimmy]

The only way I would support ANY govt involvement in health insurance would be for congress to set up a system that works only in conjunction with health savings plans. The health savings would cover regular check-ups and services and the govt plan would be major medical only.

The problem with the govet getting their foot in the door is that it wont take long for them to push the door open a little more, and a little more, and a little more. Before long you have complete govt control and everyone asking how it happened.

I cant understand why anyone would want our completely inept govt in charge of their health care. These are the same people that drove Social Security into the ground. The same people that drove medicare into the ground. The same people that are driving the dollar into the ground. Do you really expect them to do any better with health care?


http://www.insurancefraud.org/stats.htm
http://www.insurancefraud.org/images/news_archives_chart.png


Look at medicare/medicaid and medical. That is just for reported cases this year.

Here is a pretty good read about medical insurance fraud.

http://www.gwumc.edu/sphhs/departments/healthpolicy/dhp_publications/pub_uploads/dhpPublication_EFDAD1BC-5056-9D20-3D3D36632A4F2163.pdf

[Total_Blender]

Where does the fraud in medicare/medicaid come in though? Is it abuse of services by recipients, the hospitals over billing, etc etc? While there is probably rampant fraud, I am not sure if that graph you have posted represents medicare recipients ripping off the gov't as it does the hospitals and administration nickle and diming the gov't.

[BanginJimmy]

From other reading I have done about 80% of the fraud is small medical services companies that bill for several million then are gone in a matter of a couple months. Imagine how much more common that will become when there is a shortage of providers.

[zspeed24]

From other reading I have done about 80% of the fraud is small medical services companies that bill for several million then are gone in a matter of a couple months. Imagine how much more common that will become when there is a shortage of providers.

Prime example both of my grandparents are diabetics, Liberty Medical Supplies sends them their testing supplies they both have scripts for the testing strips that say three strips per day yet liberty sends like 200 strips for both of them a month. We have tried to get them to stop sending so many but they say that what they send is the max medicare allows thats why they ship that quantity. We have ended up canceling one of their scripts so now they are only over by about 20 a month.

[Total_Blender]

From other reading I have done about 80% of the fraud is small medical services companies that bill for several million then are gone in a matter of a couple months. Imagine how much more common that will become when there is a shortage of providers.

Thats pretty much what I was thinking, do you have a source for that?

So it seems like a reform of the billing practices could eliminate a good deal of fraud and waste from the Medicare system. I'm sure its the same way with Medicaid too, regulating the billing side of it will stop some of the leaks.

Also, if we rolled Medicare, Medicaid, VA, WIC, and public health insurance into one organization, the overhead might be lower. These organizations are all in the Dept of Health and Human Services (except maybe the VA), and already fall under the umbrella of the Public Health Service (PHS), so having one PHS instead of several different and seperate services might make for lower administrative overhead.

[zspeed24]

But thats not what the plan intends to do.

[BanginJimmy]

I will have to look for the presentation I did or find the sources again. As far as anti fraud measures, medic3e has been in front of congress asking for money for anti fraud measures. They were denied the W time payment on several occations even though they are promosing a 13 to 1 return on the money.

[Total_Blender]

But thats not what the plan intends to do.

Thats not in anything that I have read, thats just solution I thought of. Honestly, there are so many different versions of the health care bill in the house and senate its hard to say whats being proposed and who's proposing it. I think most of the info thats being quoted comes from the Senate bill (the one thats the most likely to get passed) so thats where I get my info.

Hopefully when Congress comes back into session, they will have everything condensed into one bill so at least we'll have everything in one place.:crazy:

[BanginJimmy]

did a quick search but couldnt find the article I saw the 80% figure in, but do a search for medicare fraud and you will find plenty of info on it.

here is an article you cant help but pay attention to as it is from the democratic PAC, MSNBC.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22184921


I also found an article that says Congress finally approved funds for fraud detection. In the 2 months since it was approved, 371M in fraud has been recovered and 145 people charged.

I find it funny that congress got around to approving the money when Obama is in office, yet killed 2 requests while Bush was in office.

[Total_Blender]

I find it funny that congress got around to approving the money when Obama is in office, yet killed 2 requests while Bush was in office.

Bush had a republican majority in Congress for about 6 years of his term. :screwy:

[BanginJimmy]

Bush had a republican majority in Congress for about 6 years of his term. :screwy:


Should have been more clear, I wasnt talking about Dem or Rep individually.

[preferredduck]

Why should the govt. have to pay for even part of your health care or your food for that matter. If you cannot afford the things you need shouldn't you work harder find a better paying job or maybe even work a second part time job.

what jobs again. isn't unempoyment still going up.

[preferredduck]

Where does the fraud in medicare/medicaid come in though? Is it abuse of services by recipients, the hospitals over billing, etc etc? While there is probably rampant fraud, I am not sure if that graph you have posted represents medicare recipients ripping off the gov't as it does the hospitals and administration nickle and diming the gov't.

jimmy had a good one. i have done billing and collections and i found on numerous occasions, esp with st francis hospital in columbus that there were meds or services billed to medicare that were not received, private room charges, etc. but they do this because the gov't pays way less than private insurance.

[zspeed24]

didn't wanna start a new thread for this...

this statement says it all................

Somebody summed up ObamaCare very concisely:

“Let me get this straight. We’re going to pass a health care plan written by a committee whose head said he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that didn’t read it but exempts them from abiding by it, signed by a President who smokes and is also exempted, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese and financed by a country that’s nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?”

[Total_Blender]

Who in Congress do you know of that hasn't read the bill? I want names.

As far as the committee head "not understanding the bill"... Ted Kennedy was the chair of the Senate committee that wroter the bills and I have not seen a single source that said he "didn't understand the bill". Maybe it was ranking member (and probably the new committee chair) Mike Enzi (R Wyoming)... he's a Republican and they are known for their lack of reading comprehension.

As far as you "obese Surgeon General"... thats current surgeon general Steven Galson in this photo, at a bike ride in Portland, OR thats part of his anti-obesity initiative. I wouldn't call the guy "obese," would you?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/2401285139_d3f238df81.jpg?v=0

[zspeed24]

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand
Nobody's listening.

[Justin51982]

Obama donors showing up to his town hall? Shocking! :crazy:

Its obvious the girl is reading from a card, someone probably helped her prepare the question.

The girl asked about the protesters... give her the benefit of the doubt, if the right actually had anything to offer this debate other than asshattery you all might be able to convert her. :lmfao:

Are you so blinded by the political proaganda that you really believe some of what you say? I mean seriously. Seriously, you would have been a prime candidate to have lived in Germany in 1939. You'd buy that socialist propaganda as much as you do your messiahs.

[Total_Blender]

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."

Ayn Rand
Nobody's listening.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/6430/1040092-ayn_rand_tldr_super.jpg

Seriously though, Ayn Rand is a joke. If you take anything she has to say seriously, you are a fool unworthy of Mr T's pity. :goodjob:

[BanginJimmy]

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/6430/1040092-ayn_rand_tldr_super.jpg

Seriously though, Ayn Rand is a joke. If you take anything she has to say seriously, you are a fool unworthy of Mr T's pity. :goodjob:


According to you, everyone is either an idiot or a joke unless they are a communist, socialist, or way the fuck out in left field liberal.

Makes you wonder who the real joke is doesnt it?

[zspeed24]

Whats untrue of that statement... Do you want to pay for GM, your neighbors mortgage, etc.??

[Justin51982]

According to you, everyone is either an idiot or a joke unless they are a communist, socialist, or way the fuck out in left field liberal.

Makes you wonder who the real joke is doesnt it?

You know Jimmy, I really like how it seems you and I are on the same page. Props to you.

[Justin51982]

According to you, everyone is either an idiot or a joke unless they are a communist, socialist, or way the fuck out in left field liberal.

Makes you wonder who the real joke is doesnt it?

The difference it, despite what he says, people actually care about Ayn Rand's opinion. People don't care about his, if they did, he'd have a tv show, talk show or periodical section of his own.

[Total_Blender]

According to you, everyone is either an idiot or a joke unless they are a communist, socialist, or way the fuck out in left field liberal.

Makes you wonder who the real joke is doesnt it?

I take it you're not familiar with the works of Ayn "all of the heroes in my novels are rapists" Rand. Seriously... just reading the Wikipedia article on The Fountainhead made me feel dirty and weird.

"If it was rape, it was rape by engraved invitation." - Ayn Rand


http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/aynrand/arflowchart2copy.png



:goodjob:

[BanginJimmy]

I take it you're not familiar with the works of Ayn "all of the heroes in my novels are rapists" Rand. Seriously... just reading the Wikipedia article on The Fountainhead made me feel dirty and weird.

"If it was rape, it was rape by engraved invitation." - Ayn Rand


http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/aynrand/arflowchart2copy.png



:goodjob:


Notice the bolded word. That makes it a work of fiction, much like the "facts" of an Obama speech.

[Total_Blender]

Notice the bolded word. That makes it a work of fiction.

In addition to being a fiction writer, Rand is also a "philosopher" (quotes because I use the term loosely). Her "philosophy" of objectivism is one of the key tenets of the so called Libertarian movement all of you 20-something-upper-middle-class WASPS subscribe to.

Which is exactly my point of contention with rand and her followers. There is no "free energy machine", nor would the world stop if all of the "Atlases" suddenly "go Gault". If all the business leaders and innovators suddenly left, there roles would be filled by other people.

Likewise, there will always be a capitalist class working for their own benefit. Even if taxes were increased another 3-5%, it is still many times more lucrative to be a CEO than a garbage man.

[zspeed24]

If all the business leaders and innovators suddenly left, there roles would be filled by other people.

I actually agree with this statement that is why i was so strongly against bailouts. I am the CEO of a corporation but guess what the economy has probably hit me just as it has everyone else on IA.