IA Here is a Serious Question.

[TheProfiteer]

For all you religious people of IA, please let me ask you something.

What do you imagine heaven to be like?

Simple as that. Tell me when you die, what are you expecting?

[dohc4.6sc]

my body will become one with the earth, and i will come back as a beautiful tree.

[Dr.G35]

For all you religious people of IA, please let me ask you something.

What do you imagine heaven to be like?

Simple as that. Tell me when you die, what are you expecting?
seeing all my family greeting me to the one place that is truly home.

[Brett]

I hope something like the movie "What Dreams May Come"

But I hope its a place that is pure peace and happiness, But I do often wonder of heaven exsists or if its a place made up by people to make the reality of death easier.

[The Ren]

I often wonder what death will be like.. I honestly have no idea.. just know its enevitable and it will happen one day.

[BobbyFresco]

I expect to decompose...
/ thread.

[BobbyFresco]

I hope something like the movie "What Dreams May Come"

But I hope its a place that is pure peace and happiness, But I do often wonder of heaven exsists or if its a place made up by people to make the reality of death easier.

This.

[EJ25RUN]

Nurburgring in a Porsche 917 when part of the track is snowing.

[d993s]

I hope something like the movie "What Dreams May Come"

But I hope its a place that is pure peace and happiness, But I do often wonder of heaven exsists or if its a place made up by people to make the reality of death easier.

EXACTLY!

[TheProfiteer]

I hope something like the movie "What Dreams May Come"

But I hope its a place that is pure peace and happiness, But I do often wonder of heaven exsists or if its a place made up by people to make the reality of death easier.


im going to have to agree with this right here as well.


but for the people that said that something else is there, like their family is greeting them, and that its what is truly home.

After the greeting and arrival, what are you going to do?

[mocha latte cupcake]

the human mind can not comprehend the true reality of "end of existance" it won't let you come to peace with. i'm just dead. truly imagine thats the end of all thought, being, even if your mind comes to peace with "no more self existance" and death being eternal silence, coldness, and stillness. the mind still attributes these sensations with death, insinuating that the mind is still @ work in a numb but futile existence in which it can accomplish nothing.

heaven is there as a promise, not as a "making death easier to deal with" people who have faith understand that it is a place where the soul goes after a life of service. works alone are dead without faith. either way, heaven is an unimaginable greatness that can only be described in adjectives and feeble attempts to inspire awe and wonder.

[TheProfiteer]

the human mind can not comprehend the true reality of "end of existance" it won't let you come to peace with. i'm just dead. truly imagine thats the end of all thought, being, even if your mind comes to peace with "no more self existance" and death being eternal silence, coldness, and stillness. the mind still attributes these sensations with death, insinuating that the mind is still @ work in a numb but futile existence in which it can accomplish nothing.

heaven is there as a promise, not as a "making death easier to deal with" people who have faith understand that it is a place where the soul goes after a life of service. works alone are dead without faith. either way, heaven is an unimaginable greatness that can only be described in adjectives and feeble attempts to inspire awe and wonder.

i like the way you put this man, you put a lot of thought into writing this, and some of it came out beautifuly, almost poetic.

i think you are absolutely right about the whole notion that the mind is unable to truly accept the end of existence.

but sadly I think death really is the end of ones personal existence, i dont attribute death as the eternal sleep, I concieve it as the end of my sentience, no more thought, feeling, emotion, no numbness, no coldness, no darkness, just pure and utter nothing. You fade to black and once the lights are out the darkness begins to fade, after which you are gone.

[trini_gsr]

since I'm lurking in this forum today I'll take a stab at this one :D

there seems to be a common undercurrent amidst all these different ideas about basically returning to what you could call the Source of creation at death. Some think this implies a reincarnation cycle, some think you get judged and go to heaven or hell, some get thrown back into the Matrix, etc.

Now I believe God is responsible for creating the universe, so just like our bodies are a part of a grand natural order, our consciousness is too. each consciousness (spirit, ego, the I) is almost like a reflection of the totality of consciousness that God represents. It's kinda like we'd be a reflection of the sun focused through a magnifying glass into one little point (burning a hole in someone's shoe LOL). break the glass (which signifies death) and that light doesn't cease to exist or diminish the sun in any way...the light just exists in another form now.

Now if when the "glass" breaks, do we exist in a harmonious state and retain our consciousness, or do we lose it and that same life energy just gets refocused in a different glass (reincarnation), I don't know. Our bodies break back down into dust so it stands to reason that our "spirits" do the same. There's not enough info for me to draw a logical conclusion. I have some ideas about it but they're just ideas...don't wanna get too deep into it :goodjob:

[TheProfiteer]

since I'm lurking in this forum today I'll take a stab at this one :D

there seems to be a common undercurrent amidst all these different ideas about basically returning to what you could call the Source of creation at death. Some think this implies a reincarnation cycle, some think you get judged and go to heaven or hell, some get thrown back into the Matrix, etc.

Now I believe God is responsible for creating the universe, so just like our bodies are a part of a grand natural order, our consciousness is too. each consciousness (spirit, ego, the I) is almost like a reflection of the totality of consciousness that God represents. It's kinda like we'd be a reflection of the sun focused through a magnifying glass into one little point (burning a hole in someone's shoe LOL). break the glass (which signifies death) and that light doesn't cease to exist or diminish the sun in any way...the light just exists in another form now.

Now if when the "glass" breaks, do we exist in a harmonious state and retain our consciousness, or do we lose it and that same life energy just gets refocused in a different glass (reincarnation), I don't know. Our bodies break back down into dust so it stands to reason that our "spirits" do the same. There's not enough info for me to draw a logical conclusion. I have some ideas about it but they're just ideas...don't wanna get too deep into it :goodjob:

my beliefs fall in line with this as well.

I believe that our being, our individuality, our conciousness is a product of our flesh, our bodies, our physical mind. When our body dies so does our being, but that spark of life, that energy that exists within life is potentaily returned back to the earth to create life anew.

[trini_gsr]

my beliefs fall in line with this as well.

I believe that our being, our individuality, our conciousness is a product of our flesh, our bodies, our physical mind. When our body dies so does our being, but that spark of life, that energy that exists within life is potentaily returned back to the earth to create life anew.

the question is...does that life spark retain its sense of self once returning to God, or is it "recycled" into new life (reincarnation)? Also, is there a judgement of sorts waiting on it when this happens that determines its next destination? This is the point where the different religions go off in different directions.

Seems like it should be a basic recycling...but then you have to wonder how does the whole karmic cause/effect scenario fit into it. because the natural universe follows these laws too. Only it might not be so immediate where spirituality is concerned. I dunno...

[TheProfiteer]

the question is...does that life spark retain its sense of self once returning to God, or is it "recycled" into new life (reincarnation)? Also, is there a judgement of sorts waiting on it when this happens that determines its next destination? This is the point where the different religions go off in different directions.

Seems like it should be a basic recycling...but then you have to wonder how does the whole karmic cause/effect scenario fit into it. because the natural universe follows these laws too. Only it might not be so immediate where spirituality is concerned. I dunno...

I think that all the things we attribute to spirituality is derived from human worldly notions. Which is wrong, because if there is anything beyond death, it is so much more than what we understand or can even imagine. I do know for certian, I can just feel it, that our being does not go beyond life. It dies with our flesh.

[ISAtlanta300]

Everything that has a beginning, has an end. And vice versa. However, the simple fact that you had a beginning, dictates that you either already had your end, or were just waiting in line to begin here and now on this earth anew.

If we subscribe to the notion that something can not come out of nothing, then you were already 'somewhere' before you were even born.

Maybe you were pure energy. Maybe you were just a soul. But could you have been nothing and then suddenly just 'exist'?

Maybe when you die you return to your 'dormant state' until you are 'sparked' anew. Maybe this 'dormant state' is heaven. Or maybe a temporary holding state somewhere in one or other dimension.

[geoff]

the bible states this...when we die our flesh and soul seperate. we then enter a sleep like state. ( i dont know much about this part but i believe its without dreams or anything, just a deep sleep.) then the Lord Jesus Christ ( God ) comes back and the ones who died for Him, maryters, rise first. then believers and then finally non believers. (here is where my oppinion comes in)..............................

we then enter into a giant court room if you will, where we all await to be called in lines. evolutionists, theorists, non-believers go:eek: " OH $H!T " and then cower in a corner and await to be called. we then each stand before our maker and He opens up two books and weighs our deeds and how we conducted and lived our lives. i believe this process takes some time as we give account for ourselves. we then are judged by God and here one of two verdicts....1. Be gone from Me for I never knew you. or 2. well done My faithful servant.

the ones that here verdict one suffer the second death, no presence of God, no peace, and eternal suffering.( im not sure what hell is like nor do i want to find out) the ones that here verdict 2 enter into new jeruselum or the Kingdom of God. it will be a new earth with no night, no rain, no catastrophies. there will be no sun for Jesus Himself will be the light for us and will be among us. i believe it to be much like this earth but without death, suffering, ect...a perfect world. we as the ones who made it will see our relatives that made it aswell but we will love all there the same. our days or time or whatever worshiping God and loving Him for eternity. end

[jorgen]

LOADED...

Here we go.
I've read much on death. I think when you die, there is a waiting period. A Purgatory if you will. A place of 'lost' to wonder until the time has come.

I am affraid of Geoffs version is likely correct. I am still very uncertain about the measure of judgments. As we are all sinners no?

Upon entering heaven, you are given a new and perfect body, you are made whole.
This must happen. You cannot goto heaven in your current form.
You would sin again in a matter of seconds and be thrown out.

I try to imagine adding extra dimensions to a 3D space... can't do it. Good luck.

Mary L. Baxter:
She provides in great detail a tour of both heaven and hell.
http://spiritlessons.com/a_divine_revelation_of_heaven.htm
http://spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Baxter_A_Divine_Revelation_of_Hell.htm

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/7/23/633839392073151715-perspective.jpg

[TheProfiteer]

I try to imagine adding extra dimensions to a 3D space... can't do it. Good luck.



Here is a very simple way to look at the 4th dimension.

1st D= Height
2nd D= Length
3rd D= Width
4th D= Duration


Time is not a singular point of existence, we just percieve it that way.

[TheProfiteer]

the bible states this...when we die our flesh and soul seperate. we then enter a sleep like state. ( i dont know much about this part but i believe its without dreams or anything, just a deep sleep.) then the Lord Jesus Christ ( God ) comes back and the ones who died for Him, maryters, rise first. then believers and then finally non believers. (here is where my oppinion comes in)..............................

we then enter into a giant court room if you will, where we all await to be called in lines. evolutionists, theorists, non-believers go:eek: " OH $H!T " and then cower in a corner and await to be called. we then each stand before our maker and He opens up two books and weighs our deeds and how we conducted and lived our lives. i believe this process takes some time as we give account for ourselves. we then are judged by God and here one of two verdicts....1. Be gone from Me for I never knew you. or 2. well done My faithful servant.

the ones that here verdict one suffer the second death, no presence of God, no peace, and eternal suffering.( im not sure what hell is like nor do i want to find out) the ones that here verdict 2 enter into new jeruselum or the Kingdom of God. it will be a new earth with no night, no rain, no catastrophies. there will be no sun for Jesus Himself will be the light for us and will be among us. i believe it to be much like this earth but without death, suffering, ect...a perfect world. we as the ones who made it will see our relatives that made it aswell but we will love all there the same. our days or time or whatever worshiping God and loving Him for eternity. end

and when you are finally judged and get accepted and are reunited with your family whats next? You just continue on living, in an exponentially increasing realm of immortal people all staying the same age, doing the same earthly activities.


let me ask you this, what good is joy if there is no suffering?

Would happiness really be that powerful with out sorrow on the other end of the spectrum?

[geoff]

are you saying that someone needs to be miserable in order to know what true happiness is? are you saying that someone needs to suffer before they can experience joy?

[TheProfiteer]

are you saying that someone needs to be miserable in order to know what true happiness is? are you saying that someone needs to suffer before they can experience joy?


not necessarily. But the person needs to know that the other exists and that its possible.


Its a lot like a balancing effect. Think about it, how can you truly know happiness if to you sorrow is not even possible.

Heaven can not be this perfect place with no pain, no sorrow, no suffering, just absolute perfection. Because then you can exist eternally and do anything with no consequence. Not to mention you would eventually become so desensitized to everything that you would just be, you would feel happiness, or sorrow, or pain or pleasure, you would just be. (Which is the worst existence of all) This idea of a perfect existence is so far fetched I have a hard time understanding how anyone could ever believe in it, its just inhuman.

[geoff]

with no one feeling pain and sorrow and only happiness how could we be desensitized? living in a perfect world would be just that...perfect. i think we have been desensitized because of all the wikedness of people.

[zimabog]

I'm confident that when we die, nothing happens. Same thing that happens to ants, plants, mice, cockroachs, and dogs also happens to us. We are the same as them, just matter, molecules and atoms. No souls or spirits. Just non-existence.

[Echonova]

with no one feeling pain and sorrow and only happiness how could we be desensitized? living in a perfect world would be just that...perfect. i think we have been desensitized because of all the wikedness of people.I think what he was trying to say... How can you have Dr. Jekyll without Mr. Hyde? Without the lows you experience in life how could you truly appreciate the highs? Take Hollywood for example. They have (basically) everything we want... Fame, money and influence. Yet how many are strung out on drugs, alcohol ect? Now don't get me wrong, I believe in Heaven. Hope to see you there, but if everything is "perfect" I'm not sure imperfect beings as ourselves could cope.

Now I'm not sure what Heaven is, but a world where there are no questions only answers does not personally interest me. The purpose of the human spirit is to learn, what happens in a "perfect" world where there is nothing else?

[TheProfiteer]

with no one feeling pain and sorrow and only happiness how could we be desensitized? living in a perfect world would be just that...perfect. i think we have been desensitized because of all the wikedness of people.


ok look at it this way, economically its known as the law of diminishing returns.

If are starving, and you are sitting at a table stocked up to the brim with the most delicious foods, since you are starving every piece of food looks so undeniably delicious, so savory, so juicy, tasty, succulent, and then you dig in. As you take your first bite, your mind recognizes that the need to feed has been achieved and you are filled with joy, if you have ever starved you would know the feeling. You eat to live, and you are programmed to keep living, its instinct, its the definition of life itself. You are initially overfilled with happiness as you eat, and as you continue eating as you begin to get full each bite begins to taste just a bit not as good as the last, and this process keeps going until you can eat no more. Which then is followed by a feeling of satisfaction. You are than at one point no longer in need of food, you were starving, a negative physical state that correlates with several negative emotional states, the fulfillment of your desire to eat brings to you happiness, at one point this desire and need is fulfilled, you are satisfied, you revel in your happiness, and now since you cant keep eating you have to move on. Find something else that will fulfill your desires, and bring onto you happiness.

In heaven, since its so perfect, you would never feel hunger, so you would never need to eat, you would never need money so you would never need to work, you would never feel boredom so you would never even have to do anything, you could if you wanted to but why, the negative emotional state that is boredom isnt there, its heaven its perfect. You would just float around gleefully with your family with not a care in the world, there is nothing to distress you, nothing to bring you harm, nothing at all can happen to you, eternally.

Oh dont forget, all the good people that have been dying since Christ are there too, a whole load of em, numbers can not even measure, and since heaven is eternal its seen its fair share of repetitions of earth. So yeah heaven is overcrowded a bit too, and if not that means it stretches on forever as well, truly eternal. Which means theres no where to go either.

I dont know about you, but to me, that sounds a lot like hell.

[TheProfiteer]

I think what he was trying to say... How can you have Dr. Jekyll without Mr. Hyde? Without the lows you experience in life how could you truly appreciate the highs? Take Hollywood for example. They have (basically) everything we want... Fame, money and influence. Yet how many are strung out on drugs, alcohol ect? Now don't get me wrong, I believe in Heaven. Hope to see you there, but if everything is "perfect" I'm not sure imperfect beings as ourselves could cope.

Now I'm not sure what Heaven is, but a world where there are no questions only answers does not personally interest me. The purpose of the human spirit is to learn, what happens in a "perfect" world where there is nothing else?


thats the perfect explanation. beautifully poetic

[TheProfiteer]

QD you gotta chime in on this one, I see you there.

All WL BS aside, share your opinion as well.

[sport_122]

let me ask you this, what good is joy if there is no suffering?

Would happiness really be that powerful with out sorrow on the other end of the spectrum?

yes. If you believe that we are experiencing our sorrow now. Death is full of sorrow for many angles for the living and human nature seems to be good at one thing, causing pain to others. If this is a memory of ours then the glorification of the body will be nothing but joyous as we will have seen the end of those things that were harmful.

[TheProfiteer]

yes. If you believe that we are experiencing our sorrow now. Death is full of sorrow for many angles for the living and human nature seems to be good at one thing, causing pain to others. If this is a memory of ours then the glorification of the body will be nothing but joyous as we will have seen the end of those things that were harmful.


really? you really want to believe its life that sucks ass, and the good stuff comes after?

[zimabog]

im interested in how many of you think other creatures such as plants, dogs, ants, snakes have a spirit or afterlife

[geoff]

we as humans are the only ones that have a spirit and after life. we are the only creatures that God breathed the breath of life into. we cannot comprehend heaven as we cant comprehend fully God. who knows what we will feel? the bible just says joy. im not sure whats in store for us. all i know is that i would rather make it to heaven and find out then to go to hell

[quickdodge®]

we as humans are the only ones that have a spirit and after life. we are the only creatures that God breathed the breath of life into.

Pretty bold statement, don't you think? How could you possibly know this? Unless that "book" told you so.

But I do think that there can be joy without pain. I think that the suffering on Earth is the pain we go through to be able to experience an eternal happiness after we move on.

If this is the case. Later, QD.

[geoff]

+1 on the latter part of your post QD. and i believe its fair to use the Bible to explain why we as humans only have a soul because we are talkin about heaven and using to Bible to refrence it. we are not goin off of our own experiences as we are still alive but by what the Word of God says

[quickdodge®]

+1 on the latter part of your post QD.

Cool.


and i believe its fair to use the Bible to explain why we as humans only have a soul because we are talkin about heaven and using to Bible to refrence it. we are not goin off of our own experiences as we are still alive but by what the Word of God says

I don't see where that answers how you are so sure to aver that humans are the only living creatures with a soul. Later, QD.

[geoff]

i used the bible. and it really makes sense if you think about it. we are the only creatures with a conscience and have morals and values. why? because we are the only ones that have a soul. maybe that soul is linked to our conscience some how? and by the way QD bump for your car. thats sick man. glws

[TheProfiteer]

i used the bible. and it really makes sense if you think about it. we are the only creatures with a conscience and have morals and values. why? because we are the only ones that have a soul. maybe that soul is linked to our conscience some how? and by the way QD bump for your car. thats sick man. glws



Please logically explain to me how humans are the only ones with consciousness?
Have you ever owned a pet, have you ever seen the emotion in a dogs eyes? There is a member here with a .gif sig where a dog is looking at some cupcakes, and you can just see the fear in his eyes.

Animals have emotions, emotions are products of consciousness, end of story.

How dare you attack and accuse the rest of the living world to be nothing but mindless automatons, living out a completely pointless existence, existing soley for us to feed on them right? This is the kind of thinking that leads to whaling, to pouching, and driving countless animal species to extinction.

you my friend have proved my point, you are a disgusting person, a pawn of organized religion, the world going to be destroyed unless mindsets like yours are erased.

[geoff]

you must be one of those animal rights activists. im going to go make a dolphin sandwich

[TheProfiteer]

you must be one of those animal rights activists. im going to go make a dolphin sandwich

i am not, but if you see nothing wrong with driving animals to extinction.

Then you seriously need to question your "morals" and "values"

[Frög]

Nurburgring in a Porsche 917 when part of the track is snowing.

This.

[geoff]

seeing animals beeing driven to extinction doesnt bother me nearly as much as seeing genocide or people starving to death in Godless nations. i for one put a MUCH higher value on human life. maybe its just me and im crazy?

[TheProfiteer]

seeing animals beeing driven to extinction doesnt bother me nearly as much as seeing genocide or people starving to death in Godless nations. i for one put a MUCH higher value on human life. maybe its just me and im crazy?


lol most genocide happens in the name of god.


boy you really are ignorant.

[quickdodge®]

to pouching,

Poaching.

I had to do it.

But I agree with your post.

Geoff, I'd love to see where, in the Bible you find that it says/interprets that animals have no soul, spirit, conscience or whatever. Whatever it is you're seeing, I'd like to see it. But dude, you're waaaay off base there.

And it has nothing to do with animal rights. The fuck is up with that? Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

seeing animals beeing driven to extinction doesnt bother me nearly as much as seeing genocide or people starving to death in Godless nations. i for one put a MUCH higher value on human life. maybe its just me and im crazy?

Wonder what God thinks of this. He is the "creator" of all that you see, right? And you're mocking that and saying that it's no big deal if animals are driven away because they have no soul? Isn't that a form of blasphemy? Later, QD.

[geoff]

no its not blasphemy. God put a value on men higher thany any other creation apart from the angels.

my support that only humans have souls...in Genisis 1:20-25. " Then God said, let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens. so God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. and God saw that it was good. and God blesse them saying, be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seasm and let birds multiply on the earth. so the evening and the day were the fifth day. then God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature acording to tis kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind, and it was so. and God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. and God saw that it was good."-----creation of animals

Genisis 2:7 " and the Lord God formed man of dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living being."

no where in the bible does it state that God breathed the breath of life into any other creature. God formed man from the dust, He then breathed our life or our soul into us. He merely spoke the animals into existence and so they were.

[geoff]

the book of Genisis also states that man has dominion over the earth and the creatures in it.

definition of dominion:1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
2. rule; control; domination.

[geoff]

God created the plants and animals to be nourishment for us

and as far as genocide goes. many have claimed it in the name of God....what point are you trying to make here?

[quickdodge®]

no its not blasphemy. God put a value on men higher thany any other creation apart from the angels. [./quote]

Support that. Show me where you are interpreting that he put a higher value on man.

[QUOTE=geoff]my support that only humans have souls...in Genisis 1:20-25. " Then God said, let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens. so God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. and God saw that it was good. and God blesse them saying, be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seasm and let birds multiply on the earth. so the evening and the day were the fifth day. then God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature acording to tis kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind, and it was so. and God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. and God saw that it was good."-----creation of animals

Genisis 2:7 " and the Lord God formed man of dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living being."

no where in the bible does it state that God breathed the breath of life into any other creature. God formed man from the dust, He then breathed our life or our soul into us. He merely spoke the animals into existence and so they were.

So you're 'OPINION" of what is printed there is what you say it is. That's just what you see. But didn't God create man in his own image? So He created the dude differently than He did other creatures. But I don't see anywhere in that passage where it could even be remotely interpreted that animals have no soul.

As with so many other excerpts from the Bible, it's just all based on interpretations and what you WANT to get out of what you read. The ONLY difference between man and animal is the genetic make up. Animals have hearts, lungs and other vital organs that man has. If an animal lives and breathes, I see no valid reason how it can be said it has no soul. You seem to be contradicting yourself without knowing it.


And thanks for the compliment on my car. Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

the book of Genisis also states that man has dominion over the earth and the creatures in it.

definition of dominion:1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
2. rule; control; domination.

That has nothing to do with whether or not an animal has a soul. Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

Geoff, you have plenty of posts to be able to post in the FOR SALE section. If you're posting just to get your post count up. Later, QD.

[zimabog]

so geoff... did Homo Ergaster have a soul? What about Homo Erectus?



Soul? (Y/N)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Homo_erectus.jpg

Soul? (Y/N)
http://www.geneticarchaeology.com/Images/Homo_habilis.jpg

Soul? (Y/N)
http://www.valleyanatomical.com/catalog/images/H1MG5-LUCY.jpg

Soul? (Y/N)
http://www.valleyanatomical.com/catalog/images/Neanderthal.JPG

Soul? (Y/N)
http://www.loupiote.com/photos_m/2230916615-human-skull.jpg

Soul? (Y/N)
http://www.boneclones.com/images/bc-003-md.jpg

Soul? (Y/N)
http://www.doubleviking.com/dv_images/2008/04/25/carrot-top-ugly.jpg

Soul? (Y/N)
http://blogs.cisco.com/news_img/cute-kitten.jpg

Soul here? (Y/N)
http://path.upmc.edu/cases/case243/images/image08.jpg

What about here?
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40649000/jpg/_40649842_sperm_cells203.jpg

Or here?
http://www.microscope-microscope.org/gallery/Mark-Simmons/images/paramecium2.jpg



Just curious to your opinion.


I don't think any of those have a soul, what about you?

[geoff]

the bible doesnt specifically point out if animals have souls. BUT the account of creation in genisis does not say God gave them a soul. also, in the bible no where does it state that animals have an after life or that they will face judgement. no where does it talk about animals recieving eternal life or damnation so i conclude as do many others that they have no soul. and QD in all fairness you did say..."Geoff, I'd love to see where, in the Bible you find that it says/interprets that animals have no soul, spirit, conscience or whatever".

and to zimabog...the bible only speaks about God breathing a soul or life into men. i personally dont believe relatives(primates) have souls because the bible doesnt say they will be judged and they cant worship. as far as other forms of life, the cat, cells, ect...i dont believe they have souls either. God gave us a soul and along with it the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. an animal or cells or bacteria or plants cant do that. they learn right and wrong cuz you beat an animal or yell at it for doing wrong and praise it for doing right. a dog does not feel remorse for biting someone or for stealing another dogs bone. a tree doesnt feel remorse for dropping leaves on your lawn and making you spend a full day to clean it up.

p.s. zimabog i loled about the carrot top thing. and yes he does have a soul too

[quickdodge®]

the bible doesnt specifically point out if animals have souls. BUT the account of creation in genisis does not say God gave them a soul. also, in the bible no where does it state that animals have an after life or that they will face judgement. no where does it talk about animals recieving eternal life or damnation so i conclude as do many others that they have no soul.

But it also doesn't say they DON'T have souls either? So because it doesn't say so in the Bible, that means it isn't to be? So in order for anything to be so and just, it is required that it be in the Bible?


and QD in all fairness you did say..."Geoff, I'd love to see where, in the Bible you find that it says/interprets that animals have no soul, spirit, conscience or whatever".

"In all fairness?" Huh? You didn't show me anything. What do you mean by this comment? Later, QD.

[TheProfiteer]

the bible doesnt specifically point out if animals have souls. BUT the account of creation in genisis does not say God gave them a soul. also, in the bible no where does it state that animals have an after life or that they will face judgement. no where does it talk about animals recieving eternal life or damnation so i conclude as do many others that they have no soul. and QD in all fairness you did say..."Geoff, I'd love to see where, in the Bible you find that it says/interprets that animals have no soul, spirit, conscience or whatever".

and to zimabog...the bible only speaks about God breathing a soul or life into men. i personally dont believe relatives(primates) have souls because the bible doesnt say they will be judged and they cant worship. as far as other forms of life, the cat, cells, ect...i dont believe they have souls either. God gave us a soul and along with it the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. an animal or cells or bacteria or plants cant do that. they learn right and wrong cuz you beat an animal or yell at it for doing wrong and praise it for doing right. a dog does not feel remorse for biting someone or for stealing another dogs bone. a tree doesnt feel remorse for dropping leaves on your lawn and making you spend a full day to clean it up.

p.s. zimabog i loled about the carrot top thing. and yes he does have a soul too




oh so when we go to heaven, there are no cats, dogs, or turtles for us to keep as pets. If heaven was perfect I would at least love to have the beautiful aquarium I have been dreaming about.

Also I dont think I could exist eternally with out raspberries.

[geoff]

for your first comment...I personally believe that the Bible is the absolute truth. God didnt reveal all things to us. animals could have souls, i dont know. but from what the bible says or doesnt say i interpreted it as they dont have souls cuz if they did the bible would have mentioned it.

for your second comment you asked me to show you in the bible where it says/INTERPRETS that animals dont have souls. i believe that if they did than animals would have been mentioned in heaven, said that God breathed life into them, or they would have the ability to choose between right and wrong

[geoff]

the profiteer...

definition of CSONSCIENCE:1. the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action: to follow the dictates of conscience.
2. the complex of ethical and moral principles that controls or inhibits the actions or thoughts of an individual.
3. an inhibiting sense of what is prudent: I'd eat another piece of pie but my conscience would bother me.

heaven is a perfect place but minute things like rasberries and pets or aquariums will not matter when you are in the presence of Almighty God and your creator

[zimabog]

they learn right and wrong cuz you beat an animal or yell at it for doing wrong and praise it for doing right.



Isn't that exactly what your parents do when you are very young?

[TheProfiteer]

edit: :doh:

[quickdodge®]

animals could have souls, i dont know.

That is the best thing I have read from you in any talks I've had with you. The fact that you said you didn't know was perfect. You don't know. Just like I don't know if they do. Just because the Book didn't mention it, doesn't mean it isn't so.

Here's another way to look at the Bible: What if everything that is ever to know about the religious past was NOT included in the book. What if there were significant instances that were left out? Does that mean it never happened? Does that mean it isn't just?

Believe me when I say this, but I'm NOT trying to argue what you believe to make you not believe or to lose your faith, but just letting you know what I see/think. Later, QD.

[TheProfiteer]

the profiteer...

definition of CSONSCIENCE:1. the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action: to follow the dictates of conscience.
2. the complex of ethical and moral principles that controls or inhibits the actions or thoughts of an individual.
3. an inhibiting sense of what is prudent: I'd eat another piece of pie but my conscience would bother me.

heaven is a perfect place but minute things like rasberries and pets or aquariums will not matter when you are in the presence of Almighty God and your creator



my dumb ass needs to learn how to spell. :doh:

[geoff]

once agian QD respect. here is a website i found that goes deeper into the question if animals have souls. http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/448

for the profiteer what exactly are you missing bro? i gave you the definition of what a conscience is. its the little thing inside you that tells you whats right and whats wrong. you know not to go rape a woman and steal her purse cuz its wrong.

yes zimabog your parents teach you whats right and whats wrong...but they dont teach you everything. you have a conscience that lets you know that something just doesnt feel right. animals do not have that. neither do they have the ability to choose between whats right and wrong. if it were up to them the dog would steal a bone cuz he wants it. he doesnt do it cuz he gets beat or yelled at. otherwise he would do it.

[d993s]

This thread is fucking hilarious

[TheProfiteer]

That is the best thing I have read from you in any talks I've had with you. The fact that you said you didn't know was perfect. You don't know. Just like I don't know if they do. Just because the Book didn't mention it, doesn't mean it isn't so.

Here's another way to look at the Bible: What if everything that is ever to know about the religious past was NOT included in the book. What if there were significant instances that were left out? Does that mean it never happened? Does that mean it isn't just?

Believe me when I say this, but I'm NOT trying to argue what you believe to make you not believe or to lose your faith, but just letting you know what I see/think. Later, QD.


and believe me, if there is one person here who absolutely does not give a fuck about what you think or believe, its QD.

[d993s]

I start LOLing whenever someone states "the bible tells us"
WTF??? Why are people so ignorant?
The bible tells us that the earth is flat and has 4 corners!!!!!
Well fuck, it must be so! :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

[geoff]

im curious as the where the bible says that d993s. and your statement " i start LOLing whenever someone states the bible tells us" what else do we have to go on?

unless you do a study yourself or are by some means given a revolutionary revelation the only thing you can trust is studies and writings.

[zimabog]

And what about feral children? Human children raised by wild dogs show no human emotions or concepts and are integrated into the dog world. They would steal the bone too.


What about this?
Stray dog risks his life to save another stray dog friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgjyhKN_35g


Or this? The guy gets saved from the bull by a dog who he has never even seen before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA9pw53WaKQ

[quickdodge®]

and believe me, if there is one person here who absolutely does not give a fuck about what you think or believe, its QD.

That doesn't make any sense. Later, QD.

[d993s]

im curious as the where the bible says that d993s. and your statement " i start LOLing whenever someone states the bible tells us" what else do we have to go on?

unless you do a study yourself or are by some means given a revolutionary revelation the only thing you can trust is studies and writings.

Why are you curious? when you find it, you'll still come up with an excuse on god's or jesus's behalf. It wouldn't work out for you any other way!

[geoff]

im just curious zimabog as to what those videos demonstrate? it still does not mean that animals can choose between right and wrong. it shows loyalty. thats it.

[geoff]

d993s you have knowledge at all of what the bible says. im starting to wonder what if any knowledge you have at all. you seem to be simply relating other peoples beliefs and what they say. do you not have a mind of your own that you can comprehend things by yourself?

[d993s]

what else do we have to go on?

unless you do a study yourself or are by some means given a revolutionary revelation the only thing you can trust is studies and writings.

WTF??? Are you fucking kidding me??? :lmfao:

How about scientific evidence you ignorant fuck.

[TheProfiteer]

a conscience is a made up word used to describe the complexity of human consciousness.

There really is no voice in the back of your head telling you what is right and wrong.

Right and wrong are dictated by what you are taught as a child, and by what is generally accepted by the society you live in. Its subjective, so in light to what I was saying, different people have very different definitions of what is wrong and right.

(At first I thought you were horribly misspelling consciousness, but it seems the whole time you were trying to say conscience)

[geoff]

i have already provided you as others have with scientific evidence. you call me ignorant? ignorance is the lack of knowledge, learning, or information i am very informed of ALL the theories and evidences out there. i have used my own logic and comprehensive ability to take that evidence and come to my own conclusion.

you have no conclusion of your own but instead take your own logic out of it and go off of what a select few have come up with. so who is trully ignorant here?

[d993s]

d993s you have knowledge at all of what the bible says. im starting to wonder what if any knowledge you have at all. you seem to be simply relating other peoples beliefs and what they say. do you not have a mind of your own that you can comprehend things by yourself?

I read it twice, cover to cover.
And I realized at an early age that my questions either had no answers, or "were not supposed to be asked" (as I was told by some preachers, evangelists, etc). Now what does that tell someone who is trying to learn something about the particular subject? SIMPLE: BULLSHIT!

[TheProfiteer]

That doesn't make any sense. Later, QD.

Well I wasnt addressing you, I was addressing Geo there.

I quoted you because you stated that you are not trying to disprove his beliefs.

[d993s]

i have already provided you as others have with scientific evidence. you call me ignorant? ignorance is the lack of knowledge, learning, or information i am very informed of ALL the theories and evidences out there. i have used my own logic and comprehensive ability to take that evidence and come to my own conclusion.

you have no conclusion of your own but instead take your own logic out of it and go off of what a select few have come up with. so who is trully ignorant here?
REALLY???? :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Where is it? Lets see it!!!
All you provided was evidence of WRITINGS.

[geoff]

right and wrong are taught to a certian degree. your parents dont teach you everything about it because they are limited to their own experiences.

take this example of a conscience in us: people who die for their beliefs, did their parents tell them thats what is right? or did they make that judgement on their own?

or this example: you have a loved one in the hospital who is on life support. the doctors tell you there is no way they will come back, it is then up to you to decide whether or not to pull the plug. what is right and what is wrong in this situation? can you be taught what to do when you face this? NO...the simple answer is that we each have our own ideas of what is right and wrong. your conscience is much deeper than just dont do this or that. its not all black and white

also my last point on this. you say that right and wrong are taught and that its affected by the social view. who then decided what was right and wrong in the begining? did the first men and women have a meeting to decide this or is it something deeply embedded in each and every one of us?

[d993s]

So if I wrote on here that: "
I HAVE A 14 FOOT PENIS AND I CAN FUCK 2 GIRLS AT THE SAME TIME BY SHISH-KEBABING THEM" then it becomes scientific evidence???

[quickdodge®]

that my questions.....

..... "were not supposed to be asked" (as I was told by some preachers, evangelists, etc).

I'm right there with you. I used to be seen as a complete non-believer because I had questions and I was always told by these people you were not supposed to question God or his actions. But how else do you learn? Especially with a non-visual, non-contact subject.

But I don't listen to that answer anymore.

Profiteer, I see now. Later, QD.

[geoff]

thats all evidences are. you first have an idea, you experiment it and then write down your findings.

the law of causality is absolute truth no? the laws of gravity are absolute truth no? yet you cannot physically experience these things. someone long ago did a study, wrote down their findings and it is accepted.

what exactly constitutes proof or evidence to you d993s?

[d993s]

thats all evidences are. you first have an idea, you experiment it and then write down your findings.

the law of causality is absolute truth no? the laws of gravity are absolute truth no? yet you cannot physically experience these things. someone long ago did a study, wrote down their findings and it is accepted.

what exactly constitutes proof or evidence to you d993s?


Evidence thru research and fictional stories are 2 different things.

[geoff]

guys it sucks but some preachers, churches, ect....dont want you to ask because they themselves dont have all the answers.

the only way to trully learn and to understand is to ask and seek. it doesnt make you a non-believer to ask. God wants us to seek and to ask the questions. unfortunately not all believers allow you to do this cuz either they dont know and dont want to seem like they are undeserving of their position or they just dont trully believe.

and to d993s. im suprised that at a young age you read the bible twice, understood it fully, and were able to come to the conclusion that its BS.

[geoff]

and i provided you as others have with evidence through research

[d993s]

and to d993s. im suprised that at a young age you read the bible twice, understood it fully, and were able to come to the conclusion that its BS.


No, it took some time as I grew up and out of all the BS.

[TheProfiteer]

right and wrong are taught to a certian degree. your parents dont teach you everything about it because they are limited to their own experiences.

take this example of a conscience in us: people who die for their beliefs, did their parents tell them thats what is right? or did they make that judgement on their own?

or this example: you have a loved one in the hospital who is on life support. the doctors tell you there is no way they will come back, it is then up to you to decide whether or not to pull the plug. what is right and what is wrong in this situation? can you be taught what to do when you face this? NO...the simple answer is that we each have our own ideas of what is right and wrong. your conscience is much deeper than just dont do this or that. its not all black and white

also my last point on this. you say that right and wrong are taught and that its affected by the social view. who then decided what was right and wrong in the begining? did the first men and women have a meeting to decide this or is it something deeply embedded in each and every one of us?

no man its not embedded within us, only instinct is. Right and wrong are learned concepts. Its part of development as we grow up. Its societal and its subjective.

[d993s]

and i provided you as others have with evidence through research

The only research you've done is in the bible, and as babyj said: you keep using a document to prove itself.
So all you're proving is the belief you have. I'm not doubting that YOU believe, just expecting proof beyond your belief which is only in the mind.

[geoff]

im sorry to hear that man. i have always been encouraged to ask questions. God Himself tells us to ask and ye shall recieve. we are supposed to continue growing in God as He reveals more and more to us.

the point is this...no matter how much evidence there is...it all comes down to how you comprehend and interpret that evidence. its up to you and your faith to believe it or deny it. QD i believe is on the same page as me when it comes to this

[d993s]

You know its funny how someone raised in a christian family is directed in a certain way as to not doubt or ask questions, unless their questions are able to be answered in the bible or by "god"....that is so fucking stupid and I hate all close-minded parents for raising their children that ignorant way, relying on a state of mind rather than explicable facts come to by research in the real world.
Humans have come a long way in the last 200 years. Little by little all this creation and religious BS is being proven to be nothing but fictional stories.

[geoff]

this whole section of the religion forum is full of scientific not biblical evidence. read the thread about jesus being an alien, pg.14 post number 262 and 263. SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

and to the profiteer...you still avoided ansering any of my questions of how we first "learned" right and wrong and how it was decided or ansered my examples.

[d993s]

im sorry to hear that man. i have always been encouraged to ask questions. God Himself tells us to ask and ye shall recieve. we are supposed to continue growing in God as He reveals more and more to us.

the point is this...no matter how much evidence there is...it all comes down to how you comprehend and interpret that evidence. its up to you and your faith to believe it or deny it. QD i believe is on the same page as me when it comes to this

Yeah, that's why there are over 400 different religions and each one of them thinks that every other one is wrong and will burn in hell or not get to fuck 72 virgins or sheep or whatever other nonsense it taught... :blah: :blah: :blah:

[geoff]

on the contrary d993s...as we come further to more understanding science is coming closer to proving or atleast supporting the idea of creation. hence the death of the "big bang theory" and why the theory of "evolution" has to be changed so many times or revised, because it CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever be able to explain the origins of life. that is why creationism and intelligent design are not popular, cuz all the evidence points to there being something or someone else out there that we can not comprehend.

[geoff]

Yeah, that's why there are over 400 different religions and each one of them thinks that every other one is wrong and will burn in hell or not get to fuck 72 virgins or sheep or whatever other nonsense it taught... :blah: :blah: :blah:


there are many questions but only ONE true answer. Christianity is the only religion that is supported by science, history, ect... do the research on the other religions and how much scientific validy they actually have

[d993s]

on the contrary d993s...as we come further to more understanding science is coming closer to proving or atleast supporting the idea of creation. hence the death of the "big bang theory" and why the theory of "evolution" has to be changed so many times or revised, because it CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever be able to explain the origins of life. that is why creationism and intelligent design are not popular, cuz all the evidence points to there being something or someone else out there that we can not comprehend.
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:

[d993s]

there are many questions but only ONE true answer. Christianity is the only religion that is supported by science, history, ect... do the research on the other religions and how much scientific validy they actually have

Now that's what I call 100% bullshit!

Any evidence on this? BESIDES WHAT SOME CHRISTIAN WROTE OR WHAT THE FIBLE TEACHES

[geoff]

prove me wrong. where is your evidence?

[geoff]

once agian i have posted these evidences among other users who have posted these evidences. you choose to be blind my friend. talk about close-minded. to me it seems like you want someone to answer everything for you and for you not to have to do any work to obtain your own conclusion and knowledge. so here it goes.....GOD IS REAL, HEAVEN AND HELL ARE REAL, GOD IS YOUR CREATOR, YOU DO NOT AND CAN NOT SUSTAIN YOURSELF, AND YOU WILL STAND BEFORE YOU MAKER AND BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO YOUR DEEDS WHEN YOU DIE. there, now believe cuz i said so...cuz obviously you have no capability to believe anything yourself

[d993s]

prove me wrong. where is your evidence?
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

Where is YOURS?

There are countless examples of bible teachings that have ended in genocide, not to mention advocating the invasion and takeover of other's land, etc, etc.
How's that for morals???
But not one shred of evidence extracted from your faith or belief.
Scientific evidence supporting christianity? :screwy: :screwy: :screwy:

[geoff]

you my friend are blind to the evidence in front of you. your just lazy. look for yourself. and come to your own logic conclusion

[zimabog]

also my last point on this. you say that right and wrong are taught and that its affected by the social view. who then decided what was right and wrong in the begining? did the first men and women have a meeting to decide this or is it something deeply embedded in each and every one of us?

so if morality is a god given ability... why do feral children have the morals of the animals they were raised by?

which aztec first decided that it was ok to perform sacrifices?
which person first slaughtered a goat?
which person first stole a wallet?


everyone has a different moral set that your brain decides based on other social standards. so your question is how did the social standards first come about. Every culture has different social standards. In some Cambodian tribes they elongate girl's necks because to them it is more attractive. In ancient China girls with bound feet were hot. In Japan it is a serious offense to disappoint your parents, sometimes resulting in suicide to save face. In some of cultures women are lesser than men, and in some ancient cultures (some tribes in south america before the Europeans wiped the natives out) the women were the top people.

If you say morality is the gift of god, then why is it that so many different people and cultures have their own morality view?

[TheProfiteer]

this whole section of the religion forum is full of scientific not biblical evidence. read the thread about jesus being an alien, pg.14 post number 262 and 263. SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

and to the profiteer...you still avoided ansering any of my questions of how we first "learned" right and wrong and how it was decided or ansered my examples.

what do mean how we first learned right and wrong? Like where did concepts like murder is wrong, and theft is wrong come from? You think people naturally believe that killing another person is wrong?

No, its taught to you. You think during the early days of man, tribes had any problem killing each other? We still dont have any problem to killing each other so long as we are given permission.

It is instinctual to preserve life, at least you own. As society grows, and in a sense becomes its own life form, it instinctively adopts a notion that killing other smaller parts of its own life is wrong as well.

Just like there is no such a thing as natural human rights, those rights are humanly conceived and then implemented as law.

Right and wrong are simply deciding factors, right is defined by actions taken that in turn lead to rewards, wrong is defined as actions taken that in turn lead to consequence.


and believe me animals know right from wrong.

for example a pack of wolves, all the beta males know that if you mess with the alpha male's mate, your gonna get kicked out of the pack, or even worse killed. They respect the authority of the alpha male and do whats right, which is they let him eat first, they let him mate first, and they follow his lead, because those "right" actions lead to rewards. Rewards such as being able to stay as a pack which in turn progresses the survival. Its very common to see beta males getting kicked out of their packs for making the "wrong" decisions.

(with out societal law, the only deciding factor of why a man should not kill another man is that if he does he will be forfeiting his reward of going to heaven)

[TheProfiteer]

this thread has really gone overboard, i never meant for this to happen here, I just wanted to see what other people thought heaven was going to be like. Because every time I try to imagine heaven, all I see is hell.

[ahabion]

this thread has really gone overboard, i never meant for this to happen here, I just wanted to see what other people thought heaven was going to be like. Because every time I try to imagine heaven, all I see is hell.

Things never actually come out as you'd like to see it eh?

Anyway, going back to what Geoff, d993s, and zima was talkin about... social interactions and behavior are learned, much like you can teach a dog to sit or beg.

But I think what Geoff is trying to point out is that there is so much more to us than just simply what we can grasp with out own hands. Not sure who has kids here, but I have a few... I never taught them to rebel against me and yet they do (maybe like Adam and Eve did??) and I certainly didn't teach them to be emotional and angry (I'm a very calm person for the most part but can get passionate in some things). Though we can observe these things personally for ourselves when kids are at a very young age, these are not learned behaviors... if they're not learned, where'd they come from?

[TheProfiteer]

Things never actually come out as you'd like to see it eh?

Anyway, going back to what Geoff, d993s, and zima was talkin about... social interactions and behavior are learned, much like you can teach a dog to sit or beg.

But I think what Geoff is trying to point out is that there is so much more to us than just simply what we can grasp with out own hands. Not sure who has kids here, but I have a few... I never taught them to rebel against me and yet they do (maybe like Adam and Eve did??) and I certainly didn't teach them to be emotional and angry (I'm a very calm person for the most part but can get passionate in some things). Though we can observe these things personally for ourselves when kids are at a very young age, these are not learned behaviors... if they're not learned, where'd they come from?

well I never said that humanity was a shallow low life of earth. Just because you dont teach a child how to rebel doesnt mean he didnt pick up traces of such behavior else where.

Remember your mind is molded by your environment and your genetics. Your child is at a stage where his ego is fully beginning to realize. Where the concept of I Am comes into play and your child is beginning to realize his own individuality. Its a natural process and in order for you to cope with his rebellion you must understand why it is happening.


Similarly to what I was saying in the other thread, is that the question of our posthumous existence has not been answered, and to accept a religion, one so static and tyrannous like Christianity, is to accept a notion that you no longer need to search, that the question has been answered.

[BallerDave04]

Read the book, "A Divine Revelation of Heaven" by Mary K. Baxter. Its free on the internet, just Google it.

[coreypel07]

i dont believe in the bible for the fact that god nor jesus themselves wrote it...it was a bunch of old men that say god or jesus told them too. they wrote there own views and opinions on what they think is right and wrong and that is my honest opinion. i mean some of the stories in the bible are just outragiously fake i mean come on...

[TheProfiteer]

Well you have to understand the role mythology has played on human history. If you look at the theological history of man, divine beliefs usually stem or are derived from the mythologies of a society. Religion is the application of said mythologies in order to manipulate a group of people.

The concept of hell was not even incorporated into the bible until the Romans got a hold of Christianity and used it as a allegorical model for fear.

[ahabion]

well I never said that humanity was a shallow low life of earth. Just because you dont teach a child how to rebel doesnt mean he didnt pick up traces of such behavior else where.

Remember your mind is molded by your environment and your genetics. Your child is at a stage where his ego is fully beginning to realize. Where the concept of I Am comes into play and your child is beginning to realize his own individuality. Its a natural process and in order for you to cope with his rebellion you must understand why it is happening.

Similarly to what I was saying in the other thread, is that the question of our posthumous existence has not been answered, and to accept a religion, one so static and tyrannous like Christianity, is to accept a notion that you no longer need to search, that the question has been answered.

You have children? I'm just curious... because in some ways, what you're saying is actually agreeing with me. Where your genetics come into play, rebellion is in our DNA and the very fabric of who we are.

Although its inhumane and completely unethical, if you were to lock up a child or confine a new born child in a place that provided all the necessities that it needed (food, changing, etc.) that I am absolutely sure that the baby will one day rebel. Even if there were only positive human influences or interactions or none at all. So to say that a baby is a product of its environment is off base as well. Even if the baby was cared for by machines that monitored the baby 100% of the time and knew when the baby would poop before the baby ever did or knew when the baby would be hungry, the baby still has a choice to take the nipple to eat.

Because what you're saying is that these things are learned but what I'm saying is that they are not learned but born within us... already a part of us to the core of our DNA.

What I find interesting about your remarks about Christianity being static is that we as human beings like to consider ourselves as "evolving." Where the longer we are on this earth, the smarter we are or were in comparison to the previous generation or generations before us. Case in point, because we live in the 21st century, we'd like to say that we as a people and as a society are more "evolved" than people in the 10th, 15th, or 20th century. The irony about this is that through all mankind, this same type of thinking occured throughout the entire history of mankind. For example, the Renaissance was seen as the pinnacle point of mankind back in that day in age, both as a society and intellectually. To say that we've evolved from then would actually be a misnomer because as a society, culture, and as a people, we've digressed in comparison. So the thinking or your train of thought is actually what is static... as the train of thought has remained the same throughout the ages.

[TheProfiteer]

You have children? I'm just curious... because in some ways, what you're saying is actually agreeing with me. Where your genetics come into play, rebellion is in our DNA and the very fabric of who we are.

Although its inhumane and completely unethical, if you were to lock up a child or confine a new born child in a place that provided all the necessities that it needed (food, changing, etc.) that I am absolutely sure that the baby will one day rebel. Even if there were only positive human influences or interactions or none at all. So to say that a baby is a product of its environment is off base as well. Even if the baby was cared for by machines that monitored the baby 100% of the time and knew when the baby would poop before the baby ever did or knew when the baby would be hungry, the baby still has a choice to take the nipple to eat.

Because what you're saying is that these things are learned but what I'm saying is that they are not learned but born within us... already a part of us to the core of our DNA.

What I find interesting about your remarks about Christianity being static is that we as human beings like to consider ourselves as "evolving." Where the longer we are on this earth, the smarter we are or were in comparison to the previous generation or generations before us. Case in point, because we live in the 21st century, we'd like to say that we as a people and as a society are more "evolved" than people in the 10th, 15th, or 20th century. The irony about this is that through all mankind, this same type of thinking occured throughout the entire history of mankind. For example, the Renaissance was seen as the pinnacle point of mankind back in that day in age, both as a society and intellectually. To say that we've evolved from then would actually be a misnomer because as a society, culture, and as a people, we've digressed in comparison. So the thinking or your train of thought is actually what is static... as the train of thought has remained the same throughout the ages.

go back and rethink all of that, while you have a valid basis, you do not have a valid point.

[Kevykev]

I stopped reading at post 11 because I know what's bound to follow.

Well Done JM.

[ahabion]

go back and rethink all of that, while you have a valid basis, you do not have a valid point.

LoL its a rather moot point in this forum and I'm tired... Look at the time stamp... it was 1AM when I posted and I'm still tired. 4 hours of sleep doesn't feel good.

[sierra]

Revelation 21 (King James Version)

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[4dmin]

The Islamic take on heaven plus Hell..

We all wait in turn to be judged in front of God(the unknown almighty being which has no partners). Our left and right angels on our shoulders will talk about the list they have compiled of what good we did(our right angel) and the bad we did(our left angel). Our mouths will deny the bad we did, but thats when our body will talk for us and tell God that this person did this bad/good. We will be weighed out and then we will be given our sentence..even if you go to hell, in Islam you do your time and then you will be allowed into heaven.(there is more detail to this that I am skipping)

Heaven - a beautiful place(the same is written in the Bible/Torah about heaven)

This place will have stream of honey and milk flowing. Fruits that are so sweet that you cant imagine a taste as good on earth. Trees so large that it takes the fastest arabian night days to get around it. There will be no negative anything. Everything will be positive. Feelings that you have on earth are not compared to those you will have in Heaven. If you think you love someone now, wait until you get into heaven. You will be able to do whatever you want. You wont have to pray at all because the reason you are in Heaven is because you did your good deeds time on Earth. You will have as many women as you want, and you can be with your family in peace also.

The Quran also explains what happens in hellfire..its starts as soon as the last person walks 30 steps away from your grave.

You have 2 angels that walk into your grave and ask you 3 simple questions - Again the is from the Islamic faith so dont judge it wrong please.

They will ask you who is your God. Who was your prophet? What is the Kalma(makes you a Muslim). If you answer these 3 question correctly, the doors of Heaven are opened up and you can smell the beautiful fragrances of heaven.

If you answer these questions wrong then the grave will tighten up to where you left ribs are overlapping your right ribs, every possible dangerous insect will bite you. The WORST thing about HELL is that your body feels all the pain, but never dies!! There is much more about hell in Islam, but I'm done here.

[trini_gsr]

just caught up on reading. the profiteer is correct, the moral concepts of right/wrong are usually driven by society/cultures. it's LEARNED behavior and not innate. animals (including humans) are born with certain instincts that deal with preservation of self - which is why the wolves in the example above innately know what's expected of them in a pack. and i'd bet even some of that behavior is learned/observed...

humans are born with the same self-preservation instincts. if you have kids then you know that newborns are the most selfish creatures on earth :D because they are ruled entirely by their id - their wants/desires to fulfill their needs. as they develop a sense of ego and understand the importance of relationships, they LEARN how to function in a group. first the family unit (by learning how to communicate), then the kids at day care/school, then society as a whole. there's a whole branch of pyschology dedicated to studying stuff like this...

what differentiates humans is our level of cognition - animals don't ask questions about their existence...they're perfectly happy with their "programming". humans however constantly question the "how" and the "why"...science answers the "how", but God/spirituality/religion attempts to answer the "why".

[got_psi?]

What is the condition of the dead?

"The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[BABY J]

no its not blasphemy. God put a value on men higher thany any other creation apart from the angels.

my support that only humans have souls...in Genisis 1:20-25. " Then God said, let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens. so God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. and God saw that it was good. and God blesse them saying, be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seasm and let birds multiply on the earth. so the evening and the day were the fifth day. then God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature acording to tis kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind, and it was so. and God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. and God saw that it was good."-----creation of animals

Genisis 2:7 " and the Lord God formed man of dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living being."

no where in the bible does it state that God breathed the breath of life into any other creature. God formed man from the dust, He then breathed our life or our soul into us. He merely spoke the animals into existence and so they were.

What is the breath of life?

[148mph]

seeing all my family greeting me to the one place that is truly home.



truly agree