Organized Religion

[Hulud]

whats the point of it? a sense of belonging?

isnt religion supposed to be your own beliefs and its between you and your god/lack there of a god?

lets discuss this


The thing that bothers me about organized religions is the herd mentality.


"Herd mentality describes how people are influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors, follow trends, and/or purchase items"

[AirMax95]

I see it as most see people see other organizations they join; to be with like minded individuals. If you believe in Christianity it is nice to have a place where the teachings can be taught, and understood. Same goes further for Methodist, Baptist, Catholithc, etc.

The herd menality is everywhere you go. It is more prevalent in religion due to the impact religion has on the world as a whole. Same as the extremist theory. People, individuals may I add, will go on the deep end to defend what THEY believe and not realize the trouble they cause.

[BABY J]

"Dear Lord ... please protect me from thy followers... Amen.

J'son"

[ahabion]

whats the point of it? a sense of belonging?

isnt religion supposed to be your own beliefs and its between you and your god/lack there of a god?

lets discuss this


The thing that bothers me about organized religions is the herd mentality.


"Herd mentality describes how people are influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors, follow trends, and/or purchase items"


If that is the logic that you're using to describe organized religion, then it would be no different from anything else. Car enthusiasm, frats, colleges, philosophy, scientology,... everything. People, in general, require themselves to have social influences and community in order to maintain themselves as a civilized people. Tracing people all the way back into history, mankind has always followed the same communal patterns of socialized groups. Evolutionists would also agree, studying the behavioral patterns of primates.

So if you see organized religions as utilizing the herd mentality, then yes, you are correct but again, it's not different from all other things.

Quick question: What would be considered disorganized or unorganized religion?

[geoff]

i believe that organized religion is whats wrong in the world these days. its a personall relationship with God that we need to have. the first church after christ did not have a denomination or a name. they were a group of believers that sought the truth, supported eachother and all, and loved eachother and all. its the different oppinions and theories of men that made it into what it is today. we as believers are supposed to be unified as one body and Christ as the head, that is the ideal church and what it should be. as the bible says, there is one faith, one God, and one body with Jesus Christ as the head.

[Hulud]

If that is the logic that you're using to describe organized religion, then it would be no different from anything else. Car enthusiasm, frats, colleges, philosophy, scientology,... everything. People, in general, require themselves to have social influences and community in order to maintain themselves as a civilized people. Tracing people all the way back into history, mankind has always followed the same communal patterns of socialized groups. Evolutionists would also agree, studying the behavioral patterns of primates.

So if you see organized religions as utilizing the herd mentality, then yes, you are correct but again, it's not different from all other things.

Quick question: What would be considered disorganized or unorganized religion?
i agree its not any different that a lot of things in life. but what you chose to ignore was the fact that i said "isnt religion between you and god"

its not that its disorganized but if you're religious you shouldnt feel like you have to goto church/temple/etc.. to serve your god. because these people who lead and are in the church tell you how you're supposed to praise your god.

[Hulud]

i believe that organized religion is whats wrong in the world these days. its a personall relationship with God that we need to have. the first church after christ did not have a denomination or a name. they were a group of believers that sought the truth, supported eachother and all, and loved eachother and all. its the different oppinions and theories of men that made it into what it is today. we as believers are supposed to be unified as one body and Christ as the head, that is the ideal church and what it should be. as the bible says, there is one faith, one God, and one body with Jesus Christ as the head.
couldnt have said it better

[geoff]

church is no longer what it was intended to be but dont get me wrong...a GOOD church is still important. the bible states that hearing of the word brings faith. which if you think about it is very important. if you have no preachers how would you hear of God anyway? i guess it all comes down to where you find a comfortable place to worship God, hear the word, and find support and encouragement. i know its hard to believe but there are still some churches and people out there that do what they are supposed to, dont judge or comdemn, love all, and try to be a good example

[90_ACCORD]

well i dont say anything about others peoples religion or what they believe in nor do i let other people influence me and my beliefs. I mean its not my place to tell them what to believe in. I hate it when other people say shit about what I or someone else believes in. It not like im hurting them by doing this. They just make things worse by saying what they do.

[ahabion]

i agree its not any different that a lot of things in life. but what you chose to ignore was the fact that i said "isnt religion between you and god"

its not that its disorganized but if you're religious you shouldnt feel like you have to goto church/temple/etc.. to serve your god. because these people who lead and are in the church tell you how you're supposed to praise your god.

You are absolutely right about going to church. Depending of course on the religion, I can only speak of Christianity for my own defense, but no, I don't have to nor am I require nor obligated to go to church for a place to worship because within my faith, "the church" is not a structure of buildings. It's contained within the people. The people are the church, they don't need elaborate buildings nor fancy doo-hickees to worship.

Why then with all the huge buildings and elaborate technologies and the like??? That is what draws people who are looking and seeking for themselves the meaning of what a full life really is to them. It's not for everybody because everyone has their own convictions.

The people within some churches that lead, you're also correct, in that they do tell you how to worship and praise (which to me is sometimes wrong, based biblically) But there are those few that serve to add clarification to what values and standards "may" mean, as it "may" have intended it to be. Much like any teacher or professor must take into account the variables of that time along with cultural differences.

[ahabion]

its not that its disorganized but if you're religious you shouldnt feel like you have to goto church/temple/etc.. to serve your god. because these people who lead and are in the church tell you how you're supposed to praise your god.

about disorganized/unorganized religion

I was just asking really just to ask, not to try to make you answer it in anyway... but just out of curiosity how the term "organized" ever got associated with "religion".

Did a google search on it and found a lot on the Catholic and Episcopal churches. I don't agree with a lot of their values and beliefs anyway but I think that's one of the spear-heads leading the charge in negativity for church and religion as a whole. The other is just church fans, they do all the right things on Sunday but life is different for them 6 days out of the week.

[bu villain]

I think most people who go to church are looking for a sense of belonging and there is certainly a danger of group think but a group of people who are all looking to connect with god personally can still help each other by discussing their thoughts and ideas. It doesn't mean you have to believe exactly the same just because someone shares something they believe to be true for themselves.

[d993s]

All religions are organized.
How do you think they get started?
1 extremist has something interesting to say
<others hear him and start agreeing/believing due to his or her communication with god, allah, satan, whatever
<their numbers grow
<leaders are formed to study/invent new ideas and beliefs to keep people interested and loyal
<beliefs are turned into laws
<beliefs expand to the extent of converting even more to "the truth"
<murders ensue

etc
etc
etc

Religion is the best example of organized crime and control EVER seen.

[civictR]

god or evolution?

[Ocelot]

god or evolution?

those are not even related. it is not the same argument

[trini_gsr]

organized religions are like government schools...LOL :D. except they weren't set up to be exactly benevolent.

still...they do serve a purpose. it's a fairly efficient way to easily teach basic spirituality/morality to people in a society, just like schools are a fairly efficient way to teach ppl how read/write/etc. and it's always uplifting to be around like-minded ppl who can encourage you to be a better person, etc...religion provides a good social network and that's why they subscribe to it.

everybody wants to feel loved and belong and religion fills that void for a lot of ppl, and it produces pretty decent individuals generally speaking so I don't knock it. the downside as you said...is that free-thinkers generally don't thrive in religions (unless they are leading them, lol). so you have the herd mentality.

my only gripe with some religions is that they don't encourage ppl to learn and grow on their own once they reach a certain maturity. some of them stifle the free-thinker rather than giving him the tools to keep growing. but this isn't the case for ALL of them though

[ahabion]

my only gripe with some religions is that they don't encourage ppl to learn and grow on their own once they reach a certain maturity. some of them stifle the free-thinker rather than giving him the tools to keep growing. but this isn't the case for ALL of them though

:thinking: What I'm confused about is the notion that just because we believe in a certain religion or belief that it somehow "limits" free thinking... I'm confused. Please somehow enlighten me. That's like saying because you join the military, you're no longer capable of free thinking or if you join IA, that it somehow limits your thinking.

Herd mentality or group think can be associated with almost anything, please drop it. Heck, IA is an example of herd mentality. Everyone thinks of CARS... oh noes! Somehow that stifles free thinking...? :screwy:

[trini_gsr]

:thinking: What I'm confused about is the notion that just because we believe in a certain religion or belief that it somehow "limits" free thinking... I'm confused. Please somehow enlighten me. That's like saying because you join the military, you're no longer capable of free thinking or if you join IA, that it somehow limits your thinking.

Herd mentality or group think can be associated with almost anything, please drop it. Heck, IA is an example of herd mentality. Everyone thinks of CARS... oh noes! Somehow that stifles free thinking...? :screwy:

note that i said SOME religions. not all but SOME. the very nature of how religions are set up tend to create a dependency between the leader of the religion and his followers. basically you go to church every week to receive instruction from the same leadership about spirituality. i've been to churches where the pastor spoke for over an hr without even opening his Bible or mentioning scripture to verify or validate what he was saying. that's ridiculous. this is a situation that can be very easily abused, and we see it happen all the time.

and you're right...herd mentality can be associated with almost any organization with centralized leadership. hell, look at how many ppl on IA or honda-tech are quick to call any teg or civic that doesn't have a clean OEM look or has wheels bigger than 16s RICE. lol. ppl get lazy and if the leadership doesn't encourage the members to think for themselves...they'd rather kick back and let the leader tell them what to do. we have the same problem with government but that's a different discussion lol.

the DIFFERENCE with religion though is that the stakes are much higher. it's not fads or trends...it's ppls lives we're dealing with.

[Ocelot]

If that is the logic that you're using to describe organized religion, then it would be no different from anything else. Car enthusiasm, frats, colleges, philosophy, scientology,... everything. People, in general, require themselves to have social influences and community in order to maintain themselves as a civilized people. Tracing people all the way back into history, mankind has always followed the same communal patterns of socialized groups. Evolutionists would also agree, studying the behavioral patterns of primates.

So if you see organized religions as utilizing the herd mentality, then yes, you are correct but again, it's not different from all other things.

Quick question: What would be considered disorganized or unorganized religion?

i can agree with this except the car enthusiast groups. some of you guys think the hondas and VW's with a rusted out hood and clean painted body is attractive. I say EFF that.

[ahabion]

note that i said SOME religions. not all but SOME. the very nature of how religions are set up tend to create a dependency between the leader of the religion and his followers. basically you go to church every week to receive instruction from the same leadership about spirituality. i've been to churches where the pastor spoke for over an hr without even opening his Bible or mentioning scripture to verify or validate what he was saying. that's ridiculous. this is a situation that can be very easily abused, and we see it happen all the time.

and you're right...herd mentality can be associated with almost any organization with centralized leadership. hell, look at how many ppl on IA or honda-tech are quick to call any teg or civic that doesn't have a clean OEM look or has wheels bigger than 16s RICE. lol. ppl get lazy and if the leadership doesn't encourage the members to think for themselves...they'd rather kick back and let the leader tell them what to do. we have the same problem with government but that's a different discussion lol.

It doesn't have to be centralized leadership at all. Let me illustrate. If you hang out with rich people and do what rich people do, it is likely that you'll become rich. If you hang out with poor people and do what poor people do, it is likely you'll be poor. If you hang out with friends who enjoys basketball and car enthusiasm, it is likely that you'll enjoy basketball and car enthusiasm. There are no clear leaders (but yourself) but you adopt the mentality, thinking, trends and behaviors as your peers. That is the very definition of herd mentality.

As for the pastor, it could have been that he already knew the passage in which he was talking about (most pastors can cite multiple passages right off their heads). It also could have been that the passage was already "known" among the congregation (though you may have missed the "topic" they were covering from several weeks prior)... lots of variables involved BUT I do understand and see your point.



the DIFFERENCE with religion though is that the stakes are much higher. it's not fads or trends...it's ppls lives we're dealing with.

If you think about, it is no different from anything else. Life, at its core, is what we know and do everyday. You do car enthusiasm because it's what fulfills your life, you play sports because that's what fulfills your life, you get married because that's what fulfills your life, you have children, you get a house, you get old and grey.... that's life. Your religion, your belief (in whatever it is) is as much a part of life as anything else you involve yourself in.

So no, the stakes are the same. Life IS on the line, no matter how you decide to live it.

[trini_gsr]

If that is the logic that you're using to describe organized religion, then it would be no different from anything else. Car enthusiasm, frats, colleges, philosophy, scientology,... everything. People, in general, require themselves to have social influences and community in order to maintain themselves as a civilized people. Tracing people all the way back into history, mankind has always followed the same communal patterns of socialized groups. Evolutionists would also agree, studying the behavioral patterns of primates.

So if you see organized religions as utilizing the herd mentality, then yes, you are correct but again, it's not different from all other things.



i wouldn't say religion *utilizes* the herd mentality - bc that too is unfortunately human nature and one of the drawbacks up large socialized groups with centralized leadership. most ppl will find it easier to listen to the charismatic leader and leave the thinking to them.

i'd say instead that any organization taking advantage of this is abusing their power/influence. it's not unique to religion at all, i agree with you. but religion is what the OP is talking about in this topic. and SOME religions do abuse their authority, encourage the herd mentality, and discourage free-thinkers.

from a Christian standpoint...I'd say a good church would be one that teaches the basic bible concepts, encourages members to read the Bible for themselves and gives them guidance on how to approach advanced topics once they get the basics down by providing a good support system with experienced elders or whatever. the goal should be to help ppl develop that personal relationship with God and go wherever it takes them, even if it is away from that church, but always be there for support if ppl need it. there are churches like that out there...but they are in the minority.


Quick question: What would be considered disorganized or unorganized religion?

the term religion implies organization. religions are organizations that put a framework on spirituality by describing it via a fixed set of rules/regulations/observances/etc. there's really no such thing as an "unorganized" religion, the terms don't match :D

[trini_gsr]

It doesn't have to be centralized leadership at all. Let me illustrate. If you hang out with rich people and do what rich people do, it is likely that you'll become rich. If you hang out with poor people and do what poor people do, it is likely you'll be poor. If you hang out with friends who enjoys basketball and car enthusiasm, it is likely that you'll enjoy basketball and car enthusiasm. There are no clear leaders (but yourself) but you adopt the mentality, thinking, trends and behaviors as your peers. That is the very definition of herd mentality.

this is a really good point. only thing i'd say here is that when the group gets big enough you tend to have the "alpha male" figures develop a form of loose leadership...which eventually centralizes with increased organization. and you're going to have those folks in the group that idolize the ppl in the group that seem to embody what the group is about. that's just the psychology of how groups work...



If you think about, it is no different from anything else. Life, at its core, is what we know and do everyday. You do car enthusiasm because it's what fulfills your life, you play sports because that's what fulfills your life, you get married because that's what fulfills your life, you have children, you get a house, you get old and grey.... that's life. Your religion, your belief (in whatever it is) is as much a part of life as anything else you involve yourself in.

So no, the stakes are the same. Life IS on the line, no matter how you decide to live it.

i have to disagree here. depending on how you look at it, the stakes are quite different. yeah at the end of the day it's ppl lives...but each of those examples you mentioned are different ASPECTS of life and some of them (marriage, family) are more important than others (sports, cars)...

[ShooterMcGavin]

everyone likes to feel like they're a part of something, else how you explain car clubs and such? ;)

[sport_122]

It doesn't have to be centralized leadership at all. Let me illustrate. If you hang out with rich people and do what rich people do, it is likely that you'll become rich. If you hang out with poor people and do what poor people do, it is likely you'll be poor. If you hang out with friends who enjoys basketball and car enthusiasm, it is likely that you'll enjoy basketball and car enthusiasm. There are no clear leaders (but yourself) but you adopt the mentality, thinking, trends and behaviors as your peers. That is the very definition of herd mentality.

skipped for space

If you think about, it is no different from anything else. Life, at its core, is what we know and do everyday...Your religion, your belief (in whatever it is) is as much a part of life as anything else you involve yourself in.

So no, the stakes are the same. Life IS on the line, no matter how you decide to live it.

The first part makes me ask this...

Aren't you hanging out with them because you are like them already? Every society that I can think of has its social classes except the church. The church(thinking of the community not the buildings) is diverse. It serves people from all walks of life and it brings them together on the same platform, the heart. It is supposed to address the needs of the community and the individual. This happens with personal church members, and when churches go into mission fields.

When we look outside the church, we see the opposite. The poor are not socially adapted to the rich. Try being a poor man in some of the neighborhoods in Alpharetta. Just seeing you on the street would provoke a phone call to the PoPo. Try being a noticeably rich man in the ghetto. Heads will turn and you may lose a few things in the process.

but my point is that people don't hang out with people and then become like those people, they are seeking those types of people because thats who they already are. However, in the church we mostly see this gap closed. Sadly, the american culture has influenced us enough that the same gap goes right back in place as soon as the doors of the worship house open.

So if anything I see this type of relationship as more conducive to a happy life.

[ahabion]

this is a really good point. only thing i'd say here is that when the group gets big enough you tend to have the "alpha male" figures develop a form of loose leadership...which eventually centralizes with increased organization. and you're going to have those folks in the group that idolize the ppl in the group that seem to embody what the group is about. that's just the psychology of how groups work...


Not disagreeing with your train of thought by any means, but to touch on an earlier point that you made, the church is an embodiment of people and so similar thinking will occur, friends of friends explaining a concept, father/family relationships, Sunday school teachers... etc.... like thinking will occur.



i have to disagree here. depending on how you look at it, the stakes are quite different. yeah at the end of the day it's ppl lives...but each of those examples you mentioned are different ASPECTS of life and some of them (marriage, family) are more important than others (sports, cars)...

Though differing aspects are still the same... aspects. And yes, some "should" be more important than others, but it depends on who you talk to. I've seen people take sports more seriously than their families, some their cars over a brother or sister, some money over a marriage. Depending how you view "religion," it may be another aspect for some... There's a point that I'm coming to but I'll save it for another bit.

[ahabion]

but my point is that people don't hang out with people and then become like those people, they are seeking those types of people because thats who they already are. However, in the church we mostly see this gap closed. Sadly, the american culture has influenced us enough that the same gap goes right back in place as soon as the doors of the worship house open.

So if anything I see this type of relationship as more conducive to a happy life.

Could be possible that you are who your peers already are but what if you're still trying to find who you are? People getting mixed in with the "wrong crowd" or girls dating a guy that is really a polar opposite. Sober friends who socialize with drunks. A rich man can hang out in the ghetto so long as he plays the part. A poor man pretending to be rich (happens all the time: Con men). (was thinking about Disney's Aladdin, princess sneaking off to be a commoner)

Yes, it is in the church that we see the gap close but though from different walks of life, they share the common ground: church. So though many may be of a different feather (birds) they still fly south. (though we don't notice it here as much as you would in the North ;) )