Could Jesus have been an alien?

[Maniacc]

Maybe Jesus was an Alien that landed on Earth with advanced technology and wanted to help us to improve our lives. A certain group of people who controlled the world from behind the scenes saw this as a bad thing and wanted him dead. So they killed him to remain in control of the sheeple. Seems possible.

History Channel Ancient Aliens 2009 HD 720p part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH66LramO8U) Interesting shit, no doubt.

[sport_122]

Maybe Jesus was an Alien that landed on Earth with advanced technology and wanted to help us to improve our lives. A certain group of people who controlled the world from behind the scenes saw this as a bad thing and wanted him dead. So they killed him to remain in control of the sheeple. Seems possible.

History Channel Ancient Aliens 2009 HD 720p part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH66LramO8U) Interesting shit, no doubt.

No, he could not have been an extra terrestrial because he was born here. Now as to whether or not somehow he was a seeded being then yes, but the origins of the seeding process are only known through the claims of Christ as he claimed to be God in the flesh and not conceived of a man.

Depending on your world view and how much you have researched his death and resurrection. this can mean many things, but i will say this...the resurrection is the power of the Gospel of Christ and the claims of His divinity. Most people don't realize this, but the only way anyone could ever make a valid argument against Christ is to prove that he was not resurrected, but there are many many scholars of history who say that as crazy as it sounds the claims of a resurrection are not easily dismissed.

[punkr6]

I thought Jesus had the power to be anything he wanted...

[Maniacc]

No, he could not have been an extra terrestrial because he was born here. Now as to whether or not somehow he was a seeded being then yes, but the origins of the seeding process are only known through the claims of Christ as he claimed to be God in the flesh and not conceived of a man.

Depending on your world view and how much you have researched his death and resurrection. this can mean many things.
Can I see a birth certificate?

Oh and I've done enough research to know that he was Mexican. So, bring it. I can take you on.

[Terror]

Bahahahaha this thread is lulz....


lol at people arguing the point that is likely sarcastic

[Terror]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Maniacc again.


your threads make me laugh all to hard.

[AnthonyF]

No, he could not have been an extra terrestrial because he was born here.

Do you have proof of this?

-Ant.

[sport_122]

Can I see a birth certificate?

Oh and I've done enough research to know that he was Mexican. So, bring it. I can take you on.

Yes, the historical accounts on his infancy. The fact that he was raised for birth from a woman who was known and born on this earth. The fact that his mother was actually pregnant and almost didn't get married because she was pregnant.

It takes a real retard to just say "ignore the historical evidence of his life so we can say he was an alien"

I could say the same for you...

How do you know your birth certificate is real?
How do you know your parents are really your parents?

...don't be ridiculous. Jesus was born and raised on earth. Now how he was conceived and how he left this earth could be reasonably questioned.

[Sir_Christopher]

i really like this thread, keep it up

[AnthonyF]

Oh shit!

Maniac called yo ass out. LULZ @ you thinking you can compete. Jesus was my hair stylist till he was deported.

-Ant.

[Maniacc]

Yes, the historical accounts on his infancy. The fact that he was raised for birth from a woman who was known and born on this earth. The fact that his mother was actually pregnant and almost didn't get married because she was pregnant.

It takes a real retard to just say "ignore the historical evidence of his life so we can say he was an alien"

I could say the same for you...

How do you know your birth certificate is real?
How do you know your parents are really your parents?

...don't be ridiculous. Jesus was born and raised on earth. Now how he was conceived and how he left this earth could be reasonably questioned.
Haha, you're so lame. I know, fuck my previous theory I have another one that's even more of a stretch. Maybe Jesus was a human that actually lived! :lmao: Listen, every trick I've seen on Magics Biggest Secrets Finally Revealed is more complex then Jesus'. It's not hard to stage restoring eyesight or the ol' water to wine trick. There are hundreds of videos online of the Christian people getting 'healed' at church.

Does that make 'em Gods too?

You're the only fuctard in here. I've made a one post that could disprove all of yours combined! Don't step up to me, sport. You cannot win. Oh, and I've stopped taking religious debates so seriously because, well. I always win and they just don't entertain me anymore.

I've read some of your posts and you supposedly claim to be an expert when it comes to this, but I have yet to see anything come outta your fingers that even begin to get me excited. You're just as dumb as every other religious nutfuck out there. But if you want to keep proving that the Lord of my nutsack Jesus really did exist then please feel free to prove it to me. Bust out with links, documents, pictures, old biblical scriptures, or whatever you think will help you win this. www.google.com (http://www.google.com/) there. I'll even give you a little help. MAKE YOUR NEXT POST COUNT!

[Maniacc]

How do you know your birth certificate is real?
How do you know your parents are really your parents?

...don't be ridiculous.

lmfao your stupidity is unbelievable!!

Someone please explain to me how someone can be this fucking retarded!



Oh shit!

Maniac called yo ass out. LULZ @ you thinking you can compete. Jesus was my hair stylist till he was deported.

-Ant.

lol



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Maniacc again.


your threads make me laugh all to hard.

That's why I'm here, man. :)

[ed_gm90]

LOL @ OP

[Maniacc]

LOL @ OP
You laughing with me or at me, kid?

[ed_gm90]

a little bit of both lol.

[sport_122]

Haha, you're so lame. I know, fuck my previous theory I have another one that's even more of a stretch. Maybe Jesus was a human that actually lived! :lmao: Listen, every trick I've seen on Magics Biggest Secrets Finally Revealed is more complex then Jesus'. It's not hard to stage restoring eyesight or the ol' water to wine trick. There are hundreds of videos online of the Christian people getting 'healed' at church.

Does that make 'em Gods too?

You're the only fuctard in here. I've made a one post that could disprove all of yours combined! Don't step up to me, sport. You cannot win. Oh, and I've stopped taking religious debates so seriously because, well. I always win and they just don't entertain me anymore.

I've read some of your posts and you supposedly claim to be an expert when it comes to this, but I have yet to see anything come outta your fingers that even begin to get me excited. You're just as dumb as every other religious nutfuck out there. But if you want to keep proving that the Lord of my nutsack Jesus really did exist then please feel free to prove it to me. Bust out with links, documents, pictures, old biblical scriptures, or whatever you think will help you win this. www.google.com (http://www.google.com/) there. I'll even give you a little help. MAKE YOUR NEXT POST COUNT!

no need to, i can't make you look any more ego-centric and retarded than you already have on your own...the more you write the more I need to say nothing else. It'd be like arguing with a 4 year old kid with down syndrome.

Go ahead...do the one thing you seem to be good at...flame away. I will read all of your awesomeness after I finish shaving my a$$-fro.

And since you exist to make people laugh, go ahead the stage is yours. Now do what you came here for, perform for us like a drunk monkey at a strip club, so we can laugh "with" you.:goodjob:

Im out.

[TIGERJC]

I still think jesus was a crazy ass dude that heard voices in his head and he found a few dumbass people that believed him. I see prophets ever time I go downtown, they see and hear god too. But instead of believing them, I just give them my spare change

[Ocelot]

I thought Jesus was a raptor? :(

[quickdodge®]

Do you have proof of this?

-Ant.

The Bible said so. You remember that book. It's the Mother Goose book's predecessor. Later, QD.

[AnthonyF]

The Bible said so. You remember that book. It's the Mother Goose book's predecessor. Later, QD.I was really hoping one of them would have said that answer.

-Ant.

[quickdodge®]

I was really hoping one of them would have said that answer.

-Ant.

You mean like in all seriousness answer it with those words? Later, QD.

[BABY J]

I like how people think that "scant proof" that he was a real man is the beginning. Let's start w/ virgin births - LOL. Start there and see how this thought is full of fail. Either Mary was a whore, or it's a farce. Thumpers take hours of time discussing the age of the earth and earth sciences - but then in 1 word w/out any thought will say "he was born of a virgin ... the end." Classic stupidity at it's best.

~ silently chews gum

[Maniacc]

no need to, i can't make you look any more ego-centric and retarded than you already have on your own...the more you write the more I need to say nothing else. It'd be like arguing with a 4 year old kid with down syndrome.

Go ahead...do the one thing you seem to be good at...flame away. I will read all of your awesomeness after I finish shaving my a$$-fro.

And since you exist to make people laugh, go ahead the stage is yours. Now do what you came here for, perform for us like a drunk monkey at a strip club, so we can laugh "with" you.:goodjob:

Im out.
No, sport. You don't wish to discuss with me because you know that you will lose. I've seen you reply to others, but never to me. Why? Because I don't sugar coat my posts to fit your sensitive-girly ass? I'm way smarter than anyone(except babyj) you've had a discussion with on this board. All of your posts are nothing but repeated jizz that I've heard several times over the years. You can't prove me wrong. All you can do is automatically assume that the word of God is truth.

Put down the meth and come back to reality. You're probably one of those morons who say to think with your heart - that God talks to you through your heart. If you're half as smart as you say you are you would know that your heart is a muscle designed to pump blood via your circulatory system. Anyone with common sense can tell you that you cannot use it to 'think' or make any rational decisions with it. Shit is nothing but a metaphor. You tards seem to be confusing your heart for your brain which is the organ that you use to think. Wake up! Your God is your conscious. Don't be mad at me for revealing the people here with truth. If any we should blame you for continuing with the education of false claims and beliefs.

Do this. Pray to your God to pay your next months' rent and see if it happens. Even a preacher will tell you to stop and to go out and work for it.

Did you even click on the link in my first post? If you did can you tell me what you think of it? You went to college and majored on this kind of stuff, right? So a man with your knowledge should be able to give me a logical answer to what those scientists and geologists are talking about, right? So please. Show me.

[sport_122]

Put down the meth and come back to reality. You're probably one of those morons who say to think with your heart - that God talks to you through your heart. If you're half as smart as you say you are you would know that your heart is a muscle designed to pump blood via your circulatory system. Anyone with common sense can tell you that you cannot use it to 'think' or make any rational decisions with it. Shit is nothing but a metaphor. You tards seem to be confusing your heart for your brain which is the organ that you use to think. Wake up! Your God is your conscious. Don't be mad at me for revealing the people here with truth. If any we should blame you for continuing with the education of false claims and beliefs.



^^^Here folks we have the drunk monkey creating his own arguments (in my name, which don't describe me at all) and then successfully making a fool of himself in arguing against himself^^^^ Like I said. The less i say the more your foot enters your mouth.


Did you even click on the link in my first post?

Yes I have discussed things with BabyJ before...ask him if I believe in Aliens, ask him how old I believe the earth is, and whether I believe evolution (in some cases)? I propably have done more reading on this than you have.
Are you saying that I can't believe in this and in God?

[Maniacc]

^^^Here folks we have the drunk monkey creating his own arguments (in my name, which don't describe me at all) and then successfully making a fool of himself in arguing against himself^^^^ Like I said. The less i say the more your foot enters your mouth.


You don't have the wit to challenge me in that game, dude.

So please. Stop. You suck.




Yes I have discussed things with BabyJ before...ask him if I believe in Aliens, ask him how old I believe the earth is, and whether I believe evolution (in some cases)? I propably have done more reading on this than you have.
Are you saying that I can't believe in this and in God?

Why would I ask babyJ? Go ahead and tell me what you believe in.

And since you think you're uber-smarter than me then why can't you post and show me? Please. I've been waiting.

[sport_122]

You don't have the wit to challenge me in that game, dude.

So please. Stop. You suck.





Why would I ask babyJ? Go ahead and tell me what you believe in.

And since you think you're uber-smarter than me then why can't you post and show me? Please. I've been waiting.

you post retarded conversations with yourself and I will continue, mostly because there is no reason to respond...

but

as I have said before if you have read my threads then you know my worldview. I am asking you if you think that belief in Aliens cannot sync with my Christian faith? I have already told you I believe in Aliens...I have for a very long time.

[Maniacc]

you post retarded conversations with yourself and I will continue, mostly because there is no reason to respond...

but

as I have said before if you have read my threads then you know my worldview. I am asking you if you think that belief in Aliens cannot sync with my Christian faith? I have already told you I believe in Aliens...I have for a very long time.
You're boring me. Just GTFO.

[sport_122]

You're boring me. Just GTFO.

are you kidding me! That can't be YOUR response...you are supposed to be owning me up and down this forum.

The reason I ask you this question is because the third part of the video link that you posted talks specifically about how this stuff can easily coincide with faith. So I am confused as to why you would post it as if to say that Christians are proven wrong somehow by an extra terrestrial presence.

it starts at 2 minutes in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YQ_PL9H7DQ&feature=related

How do you supposed this disproves anything about Christ or anything about the existence of God?

don't walk away. I want to have a discussion, I am just not into the flaming and name calling crap, because as you and I both know...I am not good at that.

[BIG WORM]

Maniacc, step off your hill.

The guy is willing to debate theories and facts,

not criticism and boastful remarks.

[Maniacc]

Haha, ok ok. I was just fucking around. Big worm, you, I respect because you've made some pretty good points in the past. I guess I can give sport_122 a chance. :) I'm out for today, but I'll be back, sport. Next time I'll leave the flames out of posts.

[sport_122]

Haha, ok ok. I was just fucking around. Big worm, you, I respect because you've made some pretty good points in the past. I guess I can give sport_122 a chance. :) I'm out for today, but I'll be back, sport. Next time I'll leave the flames out of posts.

Thanks...I can respect that.:goodjob:

[yojimbo]

Maybe Jesus was an Alien that landed on Earth with advanced technology and wanted to help us to improve our lives.

.. you could be right.
excavations have shown that velcro and microwave technology can be dated to about 0 A.D....
personally i don't see why it is so crazy to believe in God.
i mean we've seen much crazier shit happen in this lifetime -- obama becoming president is one lol jk.


but for real. i actually think there is something to this theory.
there is so much on the internet about how coming from the sky and being a child of light and shit. if i wasn't so stoned and lazy i would go find all of them
and paste it here. so many religions and cultures believe in this figure that maybe aliens did pay us a litre visit and the ancient societies had no choice but to bow down to this crazy smart other-worldly dude. really just think about it... wouldn't you guys be afraid of a being like that??

maybe not so much afraid but curious about it's origin. if it had powers i would surely had classified it as a god.

[ISAtlanta300]

I like how people think that "scant proof" that he was a real man is the beginning. Let's start w/ virgin births - LOL. Start there and see how this thought is full of fail. Either Mary was a whore, or it's a farce. Thumpers take hours of time discussing the age of the earth and earth sciences - but then in 1 word w/out any thought will say "he was born of a virgin ... the end." Classic stupidity at it's best.

~ silently chews gum

parthenogenesis

Just sayin'......



lol

[batlbrandon]

wow what an anti-climatic end. that flamed out with a barely puff of smoke. so disappointed. Next time you guys should get drunk first and talk about religion, or politics, or why the SEC is the best conference in NCAA Football.




boo.

[Black R]

just read the book : "Chariots of the Gods"

[BABY J]

And yes Sport and I have some of the same views, and some diff views - as well as mutual respect although he doesn't like my delivery mechanism (i like laughing and comedy, but don't mean anything by it fi I say "hey - ur a Moron") :) He and I have had our dances on this subject. I think it's an awesome debate subject and will never grow old IMO.

[Maverick]

i like to think of jesus as a mischievous badger

[sport_122]

And yes Sport and I have some of the same views, and some diff views - as well as mutual respect although he doesn't like my delivery mechanism (i like laughing and comedy, but don't mean anything by it fi I say "hey - ur a Moron") :) He and I have had our dances on this subject. I think it's an awesome debate subject and will never grow old IMO.

I don't know if you realize this, but I actually really enjoyed the civil parts of our discussions as well. Good to see you chime in and I hope you add to the discussion in the future whenever it picks back up again.:goodjob:

[Buttons]

omg... LOL!

[bandydesign]

just watched the set of videos. That was really interesting and it more than makes sense that the inhabitants of the earth in ancient times were visited by beings from beyond our planet. I just don't see how anyone can really know what religion is accurate about on which there is no evidence.

[geoff]

but there is evidence on some religions. and to all who think Jesus was an alien....thats just absurd. Jesus claimed He was God in flesh not some alien race that created the world. if He was not God and just some alien then who created this alien race that was supposed to do all these miracles? too many people try to put their own oppinions into what the bible means and who God is. its not that complicated. The bible states who God is and what He is about in a LITERAL meaning. there doesnt need to be any investigation cuz He was very clear about it. He was God not e.t.

[Maniacc]

but there is evidence on some religions. and to all who think Jesus was an alien....thats just absurd. Jesus claimed He was God in flesh not some alien race that created the world. if He was not God and just some alien then who created this alien race that was supposed to do all these miracles? too many people try to put their own oppinions into what the bible means and who God is. its not that complicated. The bible states who God is and what He is about in a LITERAL meaning. there doesnt need to be any investigation cuz He was very clear about it. He was God not e.t.
Take this as an example:

I go back 20,000 years into the past when there were cro-magnons around. Introduce them to a few simple products - nothing high-tech. Just very simple tools that we have today like; a flashlight which they could use to see at night. A lighter to start fires. Knifes so they can cut their meat and make clothes with very little effort, ect ect ect...

Do you think that they'll see me as a God or just another cro-magnon? Answer honestly.

Just because we think we're such an advance civilization and think we have every single possible tool available to become a powerful and highly intelligent species -- we really do not. Tomorrow we could have an alien make a world-wide introduction and show us 10% of it's technology and I can bet that we would all be flabbergasted. We would see ourselves as primitive after that.

[geoff]

you make very good points but Jesus did not give us new technology He did not introduce us to some way to make our lives easier He did not come to show us we are primitive. He simply came to show us how to live and how to obtain forgiveness for our wickedness. this "theory" that Jesus was an alien is about as whack as scientology. He was God, He came to give us an easier way out of our own peril and provided Himself as the ultimate sacrifice. now....are there aliens or some other life forms out there? i honestly dont know. the only thing to support that are conspiracy theories and so called sightings. the only way to know would be for us to actually make contact or to die and when we stand before God He reveals us. i honestly dont know and dont care. i have my own salvation to work out and have to figure out how to live my life according to His Word. if by some means there does exist other life out there i know God would have revealed Himself to them too and they are trying to do what they can to make it, God would have created them too ya know?

[Maniacc]

you make very good points but Jesus did not give us new technology He did not introduce us to some way to make our lives easier He did not come to show us we are primitive. He simply came to show us how to live and how to obtain forgiveness for our wickedness. this "theory" that Jesus was an alien is about as whack as scientology. He was God, He came to give us an easier way out of our own peril and provided Himself as the ultimate sacrifice. now....are there aliens or some other life forms out there? i honestly dont know. the only thing to support that are conspiracy theories and so called sightings. the only way to know would be for us to actually make contact or to die and when we stand before God He reveals us. i honestly dont know and dont care. i have my own salvation to work out and have to figure out how to live my life according to His Word. if by some means there does exist other life out there i know God would have revealed Himself to them too and they are trying to do what they can to make it, God would have created them too ya know?
I understand what you're saying, but could you work with me and try to be a little open-minded? I kinda feel like I'm replying to a robot who's programmed to keep repeating the word of God. I mean if your belief is that strong then props, but try to retort with something other than what's in your heart and instead post with your brain.

Don't take it the wrong way. I have very religious parents who both have faith that cannot be swayed by my words(believe me I've tried), and I'm not against that. I want to continue gaining knowledge throughout my existence.

To me being a religious person limits your capability to learn and see the world for what it really is. In the distant future when we come in contact with extraterrestrial who are far more advance than us, who can walk on water, heal the blind, and perform miracles would you consider it just an alien or a being with God-like powers? Before you try to put the word God into a sentence I would like to know what your definition of God is.

[batlbrandon]

Having not been brought up in a "religious" home I have had to come up with my own beliefs. I was visited by Jehovas Witness for a number of years and I was the only one in my family that would answer the door when they came. They never pressed me. Just talked and I listened. That is about it as far as my exposure to religion.

What I have come up with to this point in my life is, aren't all religions fundamentally the same? The belief of a higher being, a creator? If it is an omnipresent being or aliens, Alah or God, or Jesus. It is all the same. It gives us purpose and hope and faith. Why are these considered bad things by some? I for one do not believe. I, for now, think maybe we are an anomoly. are there other anomolies? sure. based on the sheer size of the universe there has to other forms of intelligent life. But why can't there be an end all be all to all things? I can't understand why believers and non believers would dispute the other. None of us have the answer and to claim to have proof of the contrary is an excercise in futility. There is no proof, until we are gone.

This doesn't do anything for the subject but I wanted to get that off my chest. I've talked about this with some people on here, face to face, but never to strangers in a forum. Only thing we can do is agree to disagree. In the end it won't matter, we'll either all see each other and all will be forgiven, or it just ends and there is nothing.

[Crazy Asian]

yes jesus was an alien and buddha was a naked fat female and the 40 virgins in heaven are not girls but rather guys who want to get laid so bad that they would do anything thats tight and warm.

[batlbrandon]

^^^^^see and thats the beauty about all this....it may be true!

[yojimbo]

yes jesus was an alien and buddha was a naked fat female and the 40 virgins in heaven are not girls but rather guys who want to get laid so bad that they would do anything thats tight and warm.

... don't forget about the talking snack being real. srsly -- as in forreal forreal
they showed one in the discovery channel a few weeks ago.

what? don't believe me?

[geoff]

"Don't take it the wrong way. I have very religious parents who both have faith that cannot be swayed by my words(believe me I've tried), and I'm not against that. I want to continue gaining knowledge throughout my existence."

"To me being a religious person limits your capability to learn and see the world for what it really is. In the distant future when we come in contact with extraterrestrial who are far more advance than us, who can walk on water, heal the blind, and perform miracles would you consider it just an alien or a being with God-like powers? Before you try to put the word God into a sentence I would like to know what your definition of God is."


i as a religious person dont feel like im limited by it to learn and see the world for what it really is. Mankind is evil and so is the world, just look around you and turn on the news you can see this to be true without dispute.

my definition of God is this. Jesus ( God ) created everything we see and dont see. He gave all things a purpose, He instilled in us a need to learn and to know and His original purpose was for us to seek Him and love Him because He loved us first. He sustains everything every day so the world continues to function as it does. He is a very present being in our lives, He loves us and gave us a chance to have everlasting peace with Him by sacrificing Himself for us even when we were not worthy. if you will...imagine this scenario with me....one day while you are driving you dont pay attention and you get caught doing 140mph in a school zone. you go to court and the judge tells you that your fine is $10,000. you begin to tell the judge that there is no way for you to come up with the money so he decides to put you in prison. then out of nowhere a man comes in and talks to the judge on your behalf and pays the fine for you. you dont know him or why he did it but your very touched and greatful. This is what Jesus Christ did for you, me, all of us 2000 years ago. He paid the debt for us when no one else could just because He loved us. that is what God is to me. He listens to my prayers and provides all things for me and i love Him with all my heart. I fail Him everyday but HE still loves me.

i lost my great grandmother on monday. we had the wake yesterday and buried her today. she went 2 hours without oxygen, a pulse, or a heartbeat. they were able to revive her and keep her alive through vast ammounts of medicine. long enough for all of us to say our goodbyes. the doctors told us that she was competely brain dead and couldnt feel or hear anything. in fact her body was so completely shut down and running on machines that she hadnt produced any fluids. anyway, at 10pm on monday night all her children,grand children, and great grand children were gathered around and said our goodbyes. suddenly a tear ran down her face and as my grandmother, her only daughter, wiped it away...her heart stopped and she passed. i believe she had heard us and God shut down her body so she would not feel the pain but she could hear all of our words. she was a devout christian woman for the past 40+ years and i know without a shadow of a doubt that she will one day be with the Lord when He returns. it was a miracle the doctors where able to revive her after two hours of being dead, its a miracle that with her body shut down and her brain completely dead that at the end she shed a tear for us. God is real and always present. i hope all of you hear with doubts and disbeliefs will one day come to know the love of God and have HIM and not men build your faith. God bless

[Maniacc]

i as a religious person dont feel like im limited by it to learn and see the world for what it really is. Mankind is evil and so is the world, just look around you and turn on the news you can see this to be true without dispute.

Our society is full of evil, but life is not. When I look up at the morning sky and see birds and the sun rising - I don't look at it as religous people would -- it, being something created by God, but see it for what it really is.

Complete beauty.

A combination of random birds on their way to a new location in hopes to find some food, mate, or whatever, and the morning sky's clouds mixed with our sun's rays that make up the orange glow to our sky. The cool morning breeze. The world is not evil. We are. Fuck the news and all the bullshit that's going around our society. Who gives a shit about our existence?! Really.



my definition of God is this. Jesus ( God ) created everything we see and dont see. He gave all things a purpose, He instilled in us a need to learn and to know and His original purpose was for us to seek Him and love Him because He loved us first. He sustains everything every day so the world continues to function as it does. He is a very present being in our lives, He loves us and gave us a chance to have everlasting peace with Him by sacrificing Himself for us even when we were not worthy. if you will...imagine this scenario with me....one day while you are driving you dont pay attention and you get caught doing 140mph in a school zone. you go to court and the judge tells you that your fine is $10,000. you begin to tell the judge that there is no way for you to come up with the money so he decides to put you in prison. then out of nowhere a man comes in and talks to the judge on your behalf and pays the fine for you. you dont know him or why he did it but your very touched and greatful. This is what Jesus Christ did for you, me, all of us 2000 years ago. He paid the debt for us when no one else could just because He loved us. that is what God is to me. He listens to my prayers and provides all things for me and i love Him with all my heart. I fail Him everyday but HE still loves me.

Funny.

My mother uses very simlier metaphors. Being the realistic person that I am know that there are many reasons as to why someone would bail someone out of a $10,000 fine. Do I feel like listing them all?

Not really - because well, it wouldn't change a thing. It would add to our discussion, but nothing relevant to the subject.

But I really liked your story. Especially the part where some random person 'accidentally' got his/her car up to 160 miles per hour in a school zone and still managed to get caught without having to slam on their brakes in order to avoid going straight through stores and on-coming traffic. I mean 160 is crazy! I've done 150 in my WRX and lemme tell you - if I went 160 in a school zone I'd be F-U-C-K-E-D! Nice story though.

It concludes everything!

We can stop developing medicine to treat drug resistant bacteria and viruses now, right?



i lost my great grandmother on monday. we had the wake yesterday and buried her today. she went 2 hours without oxygen, a pulse, or a heartbeat. they were able to revive her and keep her alive through vast ammounts of medicine. long enough for all of us to say our goodbyes. the doctors told us that she was competely brain dead and couldnt feel or hear anything. in fact her body was so completely shut down and running on machines that she hadnt produced any fluids. anyway, at 10pm on monday night all her children,grand children, and great grand children were gathered around and said our goodbyes. suddenly a tear ran down her face and as my grandmother, her only daughter, wiped it away...her heart stopped and she passed. i believe she had heard us and God shut down her body so she would not feel the pain but she could hear all of our words. she was a devout christian woman for the past 40+ years and i know without a shadow of a doubt that she will one day be with the Lord when He returns. it was a miracle the doctors where able to revive her after two hours of being dead, its a miracle that with her body shut down and her brain completely dead that at the end she shed a tear for us. God is real and always present. i hope all of you hear with doubts and disbeliefs will one day come to know the love of God and have HIM and not men build your faith. God bless

I have a few theories as to what could have caused your great grandmother to live even after being pronounced dead for two hours, but that's something I'd rather not touch. I can tell that you're very emotional right now -- so give this thread a break and go clear your mind for a couple days.

I'd like to continue this once you start using logic instead of responding with your emotions.

And may your great grandmother RIP.

[BABY J]

I find it interesting that you mention all of the machines she was attached to, but still call it a miracle from God. No offense, but the miracle is probably the fact that the machines were available. But I won't taint such a sensitive subject. Although death is never a sensitive subject for me (it's just a reality) I do try to respect the way that others view it.

My condolences.

[creman]

wait, so you can believe in alien races that we have no proof of, but then scoff at the idea of God? Irony at it's best I suppose.

Do you honestly believe in random chance to the point that we were created? Do you know how specific the conditions around evolution had to be in order for it to proceed like it did, and this is just "chance"? Seriously?

You mock and make fun of Christians for believing in a book, however that would make you a hypocrit. Have you ever been to the moon? How do you know anyone really has? Have you ever been 400 feet deep in the ocean, how do you know it exist? Have you ever done your own experiment to figure out how old the earth is? No? So you believe books/TV that say how old it is correct? How did THEY know how to do the experiments? They read them? oh, ok...
That makes you a hypocrit for calling us fools in believing the Bible.

I'll admit, I can't prove God. The thing about it is, I don't have to. Us as Christians rely on faith. We know he's there, because we have a personal relationship with him.

[BABY J]

^^ Who was that directed to?

[creman]

Mainly maniacc, but there is a mixture in there honestly. It's sortof a total response to the entire thread so far because I don't wish to pick apart each posts from several different people.

[BABY J]

wait, so you can believe in alien races that we have no proof of, but then scoff at the idea of God? Irony at it's best I suppose.


You'd be suprised what we have proof/video/evidence of in this arena. I worked in a place where that was what we did all day long (Air Force Space Command / Northcomm / NORAD in Cheyenne Mountain, CO). That's all I will say about that.


Do you honestly believe in random chance to the point that we were created? Do you know how specific the conditions around evolution had to be in order for it to proceed like it did, and this is just "chance"? Seriously?

This is more probable than virgin births, walking on water, feeding thousands w/ 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread.



You mock and make fun of Christians for believing in a book, however that would make you a hypocrit. Have you ever been to the moon? How do you know anyone really has? Have you ever been 400 feet deep in the ocean, how do you know it exist? Have you ever done your own experiment to figure out how old the earth is? No? So you believe books/TV that say how old it is correct? How did THEY know how to do the experiments? They read them? oh, ok...

I can look out of my window and see the moon. I personally couldn't give 2 shits if we have been there. I've also been to the ocean - not 400 feet deep but I have a brother in the Navy that will probably confirm that 400 feet is just the tip of the iceberg sir. It's statements like these that BLATANTLY reject common GLOBAL knowledge that makes your folk the laughing stock - how can you REALLY think some1 is going to listen to you when you are basically rejecting the moon and the oceans? LOL.

SO WHAT if every person on the planet hasn't personally experimented w/ the age of the Earth --- the bottom line is there is an answer that's "more right" than all of the others. Furthermore, no1 is making the extraordinary claim that scientists are their Personal Lord and Savior or their Personal Scientists. Extraordinary claims REQUIRE extraordinary evidence to support it --- something that the religious community has never been able to produce in large quantity --- DEFINITELY not large enuff quantity to swear your life and bank account by it.



I'll admit, I can't prove God. The thing about it is, I don't have to. Us as Christians rely on faith. We know he's there, because we have a personal relationship with him.


Please describe this personal relationship with God that you have. What has he PERSONALLY done for you in the last month? I'm not being coy - I'd just really like to know.

[creman]

I can look out of my window and see the moon. I personally couldn't give 2 shits if we have been there. I've also been to the ocean - not 400 feet deep but I have a brother in the Navy that will probably confirm that 400 feet is just the tip of the iceberg sir. It's statements like these that BLATANTLY reject common GLOBAL knowledge that makes your folk the laughing stock - how can you REALLY think some1 is going to listen to you when you are basically rejecting the moon and the oceans? LOL.

SO WHAT if every person on the planet hasn't personally experimented w/ the age of the Earth --- the bottom line is there is an answer that's "more right" than all of the others. Furthermore, no1 is making the extraordinary claim that scientists are their Personal Lord and Savior or their Personal Scientists. Extraordinary claims REQUIRE extraordinary evidence to support it --- something that the religious community has never been able to produce in large quantity --- DEFINITELY not large enuff quantity to swear your life and bank account by it.

So it's by word of mouth. Guess what the bible is considered? Just because you're told by someone, or read it, what makes one more credible than the other? My answer is because I know who God is, and I know his "writing" when I read it. What's your excuse?

Can you not admit it makes you at least somewhat hypocritical?

As for what has God done for me, My wife has had trouble finding a job ever since she graduated from college. after some actions and prayer (actions as in her tithing what little she had) she now has 4 different job offers within a week. Again, you'll right this off as "chance" just like evolution, but when all of the "Chance" continues happening in a way that everything turns out right, at what point do you say there might be something to it?
I speak with my God everyday, and he speaks back. Audible voice? No, however he shows me through experiences and "my heart" which is another term used for the Holy Spirit. I know you don't understand this, because you haven't experienced it. so what do you want me to say?

Just as your brother told you about 400 feet under the Ocean, i'm telling you about God and my Lord. The funny thing is we have the choice as to what we want to believe, and I was just stating how I find it ironic and hypocritical the way Christians are blasted by non-Christians when they have less proof of "science" than we do. Can I prove God? No more than you can prove the wind. I just happen to believe in both.

[BABY J]

The difference is this:

I can say "there's the moon" to some1 who doesn't believe it -- and they can see it. They instantly become a believer after seeing it or they're stupid.

I can take some1 who doesn't believe in the ocean TO the ocean and let them see it and swim in it... either they start to believe it that day or they are an idiot.

Guess what - I don't pray, I make 6 figures a year. Is the God that I don't believe in showing me favor? Tell me about the things that you pray for that you DON'T get --- tell me about those. What about the MILLIONS of people that God is NOT good to. The notion that "well, God is good to ME and that's all that matters" is a CROCK. There are MORE people that he is NOT good too - explain that. The simple fact is that God (if she exists) is NOT good to a lot of the people a lot of the time. So you prayed for a job and you got offers --- "God" MUST be good right? Well isn't that some selfish shit right there if I ever heard it. There are ALSO people who had a good job and just MAGICALLY lost it, became homeless, cracked out, and died. There are ALSO kids getting pimped and raped in alleys asking for invisible help from "God" that never arrives. "God" is SOO good - let me tell you.

Look sir... in life you don't always get what you pray for, you don't always get what you deserve... you get what you get... and that's whether you believe in God or not.

So you say God speaks to you? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? Do you REALLY think that a God capable or creating all the we see and all that we know thinks YOU are THAT special that She is going to take time out of her day to speak to you? LOL. Don't forget --- you're not special, so she is going to take time out of her existence to speak to the MILLIONS of other followers too?? Wow. Furthermore -- do you think that you and every other bible-thumper has been created SOOOO special that you have the "stuff" required to 'hear' from such a supernatural being? If a God that powerful "spoke" to you your head would fucking exlplode.

[creman]

haha, I'm not going to respond to you. The last post is full of nothing but personal attacks, hate, and the obvious fact that you don't understand. Good luck with that bro.
I'm not going to argue with you, you asked for an example and I gave it. If you really want me to answer you, try being decent.

[BABY J]

I don't need your repsonse... at the end of the day your stance boils down to "you gotta have faith" when you're cornered or questioned. I undertand --- trust that. :) And as far as hate... I don't have the "stuff" required to hate any1... that's not a part of my DNA.

Good luck sir. Respect.:cheers:

[creman]

the reason you're angry is because you know I'm right, at least in part. Take a break, then come back and we'll discuss. But you just proved my point as to how much Christians are put down for doing nothing more than believing something different than you. Then we are called the closed minded ones. Ironic, and hypocritical as I've mentioned several times. The whole point of my posts so far is to get rid of the hostility towards us Christians so we can have an actual conversation instead of having to defend ourselves the whole time. Because what's the point in it for us to stand here and be bashed over and over?

as far as my answer becoming "you gotta have faith", well duh. All in all you have to have faith at some point. That faith can be in God, science, religion, people, something. I just put my faith in an all powerful being who created us. If you have faith in nothing else it has to be in yourself, because You're reall aren't you? That takes faith (this could be the matrix and all be a dream).

[Maniacc]

Hey, Jason.

It's obvious that 'creman' dude cannot comprehend anything that you have been saying. All he's doing it using a primitive style of combat. Using the same old played out routine that I heard back when I was in middle school. It didn't work then and it won't work now - so let's just worry about people who actually seem to be a little smart when it comes to this topic like; sport_122, and maybe geoff.

But from the looks of it they too are running out of things to say. Whereas I(and I'm sure you too) can keep this up for weeks.

[BABY J]

the reason you're angry is because you know I'm right, at least in part. Take a break, then come back and we'll discuss. But you just proved my point as to how much Christians are put down for doing nothing more than believing something different than you. Then we are called the closed minded ones. Ironic, and hypocritical as I've mentioned several times. The whole point of my posts so far is to get rid of the hostility towards us Christians so we can have an actual conversation instead of having to defend ourselves the whole time. Because what's the point in it for us to stand here and be bashed over and over?

as far as my answer becoming "you gotta have faith", well duh. All in all you have to have faith at some point. That faith can be in God, science, religion, people, something. I just put my faith in an all powerful being who created us. If you have faith in nothing else it has to be in yourself, because You're reall aren't you? That takes faith (this could be the matrix and all be a dream).

Angry? When and where? In fact I am laughing at you - not angry at all. I have never been hostile towards anyones beliefs - that's what the religious wars are/were about. I've always said that I'm all about people being who they wanna be. But they laughed at Jesus --- so WHO ARE YOU? You think you get a free ride? NOT.

I believe in me. PERIOD. As I said --- respect. :cheers:

[choiiiiiiiii]

The difference is this:

I can say "there's the moon" to some1 who doesn't believe it -- and they can see it. They instantly become a believer after seeing it or they're stupid.

I can take some1 who doesn't believe in the ocean TO the ocean and let them see it and swim in it... either they start to believe it that day or they are an idiot.

Guess what - I don't pray, I make 6 figures a year. Is the God that I don't believe in showing me favor? Tell me about the things that you pray for that you DON'T get --- tell me about those. What about the MILLIONS of people that God is NOT good to. The notion that "well, God is good to ME and that's all that matters" is a CROCK. There are MORE people that he is NOT good too - explain that. The simple fact is that God (if she exists) is NOT good to a lot of the people a lot of the time. So you prayed for a job and you got offers --- "God" MUST be good right? Well isn't that some selfish shit right there if I ever heard it. There are ALSO people who had a good job and just MAGICALLY lost it, became homeless, cracked out, and died. There are ALSO kids getting pimped and raped in alleys asking for invisible help from "God" that never arrives. "God" is SOO good - let me tell you.

Look sir... in life you don't always get what you pray for, you don't always get what you deserve... you get what you get... and that's whether you believe in God or not.

So you say God speaks to you? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? Do you REALLY think that a God capable or creating all the we see and all that we know thinks YOU are THAT special that She is going to take time out of her day to speak to you? LOL. Don't forget --- you're not special, so she is going to take time out of her existence to speak to the MILLIONS of other followers too?? Wow. Furthermore -- do you think that you and every other bible-thumper has been created SOOOO special that you have the "stuff" required to 'hear' from such a supernatural being? If a God that powerful "spoke" to you your head woulda fucking exlplode.


6 figures? Who says having 6 figures is the only way to be shown a favor? Again, money doesn’t buy you happiness. People live happy and great lives without a 6 figure income….you having so just means you worked hard and became successful. God did not need to help you with that, but he most likely did.

And when did it become believed that God has to be good to us all the time? It seems in your world, for God to be your homeboy, he has to be the all perfect, never let anyone down God….news flash for you, it doesn’t work that way…because there is also evil…his name is satan.



God speaks to us all. Maybe not through obvious ways like speaking to us, but through little things throughout the day that we might take for granted…





You sure seem to hate Christianity, perhaps God let you down once? Something happened with a loved one?

[BABY J]

6 figures? Who says having 6 figures is the only way to be shown a favor? Again, money doesn’t buy you happiness. People live happy and great lives without a 6 figure income….you having so just means you worked hard and became successful. God did not need to help you with that, but he most likely did.

And when did it become believed that God has to be good to us all the time? It seems in your world, for God to be your homeboy, he has to be the all perfect, never let anyone down God….news flash for you, it doesn’t work that way…because there is also evil…his name is satan.

God speaks to us all. Maybe not through obvious ways like speaking to us, but through little things throughout the day that we might take for granted…

You sure seem to hate Christianity, perhaps God let you down once? Something happened with a loved one?

LOL @ the new guy running up in the thread. I tell you what - before you pre-judge, maybe read a few of the threads on this subject and figure out who I am, but more importantly who I am not.

It is impossible for God to let me down b/c She doesn't exist... at least not in the sense that it's taught in Church anyway. Also... when did I mention Christianity in any of my posts in this thread? Again - can't see the forest for looking at the trees.:rolleyes:

I mentioned my career b/c Creman mentioned his wifes struggles for a job - and it was ONLY for comparison - not to gloat. It was used as an example --- you're quite possibly the only person that didn't see that though.

I'm not one of those people that has to "give credit to God" for every little thing that I do. I have a VERY simple view on this thing. If there is a God, she is DEFINITLEY not sitting on a throne making moves to affect every little thing you do or don't do w/ your life - helping you get jobs - making sure robbers don't hit your house. If that was the case you wouldn't have shown up on this rock as one of the most intelligent beings that we know. To ask the invisible for more is just plain RUDE. YOU EXIST --- you EXIST... you can be some1 that changes the world JUST b/c of that fact alone if you know how to think for yourself. But no - that's not enough for you is it, EXISTING is not enough for thumpers. "Hey God, in addition to giving me the CHANCE OF A FUCKING LIFETIME (you could have shown up as a cockroach ya kno) to shape my OWN life and be whoever I DARE DREAM TO BE --- how about I ask you for more and more shit every night? PLEASE God, in addition to giving me life as the most marvelous of all yoru creation, I'm gonna need you to help me w/ a job in that said life - I'm gonna need you to help me pass this test at school so I can make more money - I'm gonna need you to help me get this loan Lord so I can buy shit. Oh - and Lord, I'm the most advanced and capable of all of your creations but PLEASE think for me too so I don't have to do it on my own." SAVE IT!!! If there is a God, she set things in motion for us to EXIST and for us as people to figure the rest out on our own - and we as a people are failing miserably at that. Falling on your knees praying for God to help your neighbor when YOU are your neighbors neighbor - NOT God. If there is a God she is probably disappointed about thumpers asking for "help" for things that she has given you all the power to change on your own. I see it all the time when people pray... "God please help those that are less fortunate than we are.", then you get up and throw away half a plate of food b/c it didn't taste right. YOU HELP THOSE PEOPLE!! Stop playing yourself short and give yourself more credit sirs. People have missed the whole ship and it's disgusting.

PLEASE show me where I said I hate Christianity. I'd like to see that... and again, God has never let me down. I EXIST - that is fine for me and is enough for me. Don't try to see me man, that's too tall of an order for you --- trust me. Stick w/ what you think you know.:cheers:

[geoff]

i want to start by saying thankyou to maniac and baby j for your condolences. i really appreciate it. its funny but im not actually grieving. she lived a long happy life and left behind a great legacy. we will remember how she lived not how she died. once again thankyou both.

now to answer a few things. yes the machines being there was a miracle i guess you can say...but the true miracle is that after two hours she was brought back. i believe God saw us and heard our prayers and gave us atleast enough time with her to hear us and to say our goodbyes.

and as far as the suffering in this world and what not. i have done some studying and reading and i came upon a book titled " investigating christian evidences- a study course" by Bert Thompson, Ph.D and Brad Harrub, Ph.D In chapter 4 pgs. 111-113 they explained that those who dont believe in God have two common reasons why they dont believe. 1. "real intellectual obstacles" meaning their intellect refuses to believe in creating something from nothing, virgin birth, walking on water, ect...who consider believing in God on par with believing in the tooth fairy or santa claus. or 2. they simply dont want to believe in a transendent God cuz its bothersome or not convenient to them. then you have those that say if God is real then why is there evil, suffering, pain, loss, ect...and if He is all loving then He either doesnt have the power to stop it and isnt all powerful or He has the ability to stop it and is all powerful but chooses not to and is therefor not all loving. here is my answer to this. FREE WILL and NATURAL LAWS. the child that is prostituted and is a drug addict, that was not their choice but some adult that took advantage of them and used the innocent child. so in this case that adult chose to impose His will on that child. therefor that adult is evil, not God. and God does not interfere because that child will have the opportunity to be in a place with no more pain, suffering,ect and pure eternal happiness. the innocent lives that died in that tsunami a few years ago would represent natural law. they live in a region where there are earthquakes and tsunamis would be a result of that. with natural law if you jump off a building thats 15 stories tall gravity makes you fall and when you hit the ground you die, when you step out in front of a bus in motion guess what that object will remain in motion. natural laws...on september 11, 2001 those arib men took it into their own hands (free will) and fly those planes into a building full of innocent unsuspecting lives. natural states that the consequence of running a plane into a building means destruction. so who is evil here? God or the men that decided to put it into their hands to take those lives?

i keep hearing the non believer arguements about not believing in God and the ones with faith trying to defend something we ourselves don fully comprehend. and all this leads to is the same old thing a stalemate where believers keep believing and non believers keep doing their own thing. i say that we try a new approach, instead of trying to prove our beliefs with evidence why not instead try to understand and comprehend where each side is coming from. let us take the time to put aside our arguements and instead try to learn from one another? after all are we not all just trying to seek more knowledge in the end?

[geoff]

baby j i find it funny that in your post above you capitalized God and Lord and you dont believe. i thought that was just something us "thumpers" did :D

[BABY J]

baby j i find it funny that in your post above you capitalized God and Lord and you dont believe. i thought that was just something us "thumpers" did :D

That's b/c I don't disrespect your view even though I don't agree with it. :) LOL - did you find it funny that I made a gender reference to God being a "She" and a "her"? I did. :D :cheers:

[creman]

I mentioned my career b/c Creman mentioned his wifes struggles for a job - and it was ONLY for comparison - not to gloat. It was used as an example --- you're quite possibly the only person that didn't see that though.

But you missed the piont. It's not about the money, plus you have no idea what type of salary she makes. It's the fact that once asked for, it was given. It is an example, I didn't turn it into a money debate, you did because aparantly it made you feel superior.



i keep hearing the non believer arguements about not believing in God and the ones with faith trying to defend something we ourselves don fully comprehend. and all this leads to is the same old thing a stalemate where believers keep believing and non believers keep doing their own thing. i say that we try a new approach, instead of trying to prove our beliefs with evidence why not instead try to understand and comprehend where each side is coming from. let us take the time to put aside our arguements and instead try to learn from one another? after all are we not all just trying to seek more knowledge in the end?

I disagree. There are the few who read and don't voice their opinion. They can choose to believe what they want, but I want to make sure they hear both sides.

plus baby you say "I'm not hostile" and then the next sentance say "I'm laughing at you." I'm writing you off as a true liar and hypocrit.

edited to take out other personal insults...

[BABY J]

But you missed the piont. It's not about the money, plus you have no idea what type of salary she makes. It's the fact that once asked for, it was given. It is an example, I didn't turn it into a money debate, you did because aparantly it made you feel superior.



Ok - now you're just being a dork - and I'll return the favor and oblige. It has NOTHING to do w/ making any1 feel superior - you obv didn't read my response to that above. THE FACT IS that I don't believe. I had no problems finding work after college. I didn't have to "ask" and "receive" - I made myself marketable and I simple walked up and chose from the many offers I had. That was to show you that you DON'T always get what you want - what you pray for - or what you deserve. You get what you get. Please tell me that you understand that b4 u assume I'd say something "just" to feel "superior" over some1 that I don't even know.. I hope you give my I.Q and intelligence more respect than that.

[creman]

actually no. I've learned people who brag about their I.Q. usually have little. Again, I laugh at you making fun of how marketable my wife is, or our life situation when really you have no idea. I would say all around you're just ignorant.

[BABY J]

plus baby you say "I'm not hostile" and then the next sentance say "I'm laughing at you." I'm writing you off as a true liar and hypocrit. With that said, I've never seen anyone with a 6 figure salary drive this
http://www.seriouscustoms.com/garage/BABYJ_HATCH_DISTANT.JPG

I'm assuming it's yours considering there are tons of pictures from a site in your profile from start to finish. Good luck at life! I really feel sorry for ya.

Since when does laughing = hostile?? I mean - I only spent 8 years in the military in many hostile environments and not once in Afghanistan, Iraq, counter-drug in S. America, Bahrain was laughing prevalent in those VERY hostile environments.

So go to KBB.COM and tell me what that car was worth --- then come to my house and let's tally up receipts. Let's take a better example - pull the pics from the 2003 Spec V and guess how much money (since you want to continue to push the financial aspects of things) and guess how much money it takes to get a stock 153hp QR25DE to get to 242HP ALL MOTOR under the capable of hands of the now defunct Sunbelt Racing Engines. Again... you don't know what you don't know. I have more cars that you have fingers and that is not exaggerating.

Not that I owe you an explanation, but I assure you my pockets aren't nervous. I am VERY much grounded b/c I got to where I am now the HARD way. And I like that, b/c I don't have to drive a Z06 to prove a point to you. I've made 6 figures since 2004 and you are hard pressed to find me in anything other than a $10 Aeropastale tee shirt. But if you want to compare ATM receipts we can. Unlike a lot of people, I still like the SAME things that I liked when I was working the drive-thru at Krystal's as a 15 year old - I just do it bigger and better. To switch up to a supercar (which is something I am VERY capable of doing) is simply not me. I didn't change my appetitie when I changed my net worth.

There is NO need to "feel sorry" for me kind sir. Obviously I hurt your feelings. And if you think what I drive is any indication of what I make then I must be doing something right - LOL. Good thing I don't have feelings or they'd be hurt right now - lol.

[choiiiiiiiii]

LOL @ the new guy running up in the thread. I tell you what - before you pre-judge, maybe read a few of the threads on this subject and figure out who I am, but more importantly who I am not.

It is impossible for God to let me down b/c She doesn't exist... at least not in the sense that it's taught in Church anyway. Also... when did I mention Christianity in any of my posts in this thread? Again - can't see the forest for looking at the trees.:rolleyes:

I mentioned my career b/c Creman mentioned his wifes struggles for a job - and it was ONLY for comparison - not to gloat. It was used as an example --- you're quite possibly the only person that didn't see that though.

I'm not one of those people that has to "give credit to God" for every little thing that I do. I have a VERY simple view on this thing. If there is a God, she is DEFINITLEY not sitting on a throne making moves to affect every little thing you do or don't do w/ your life - helping you get jobs - making sure robbers don't hit your house. If that was the case you wouldn't have shown up on this rock as one of the most intelligent beings that we know. To ask the invisible for more is just plain RUDE. YOU EXIST --- you EXIST... you can be some1 that changes the world JUST b/c of that fact alone if you know how to think for yourself. But no - that's not enough for you is it, EXISTING is not enough for thumpers. "Hey God, in addition to giving me the CHANCE OF A FUCKING LIFETIME (you could have shown up as a cockroach ya kno) to shape my OWN life and be whoever I DARE DREAM TO BE --- how about I ask you for more and more shit every night? PLEASE God, in addition to giving me life as the most marvelous of all yoru creation, I'm gonna need you to help me w/ a job in that said life - I'm gonna need you to help me pass this test at school so I can make more money - I'm gonna need you to help me get this loan Lord so I can buy shit. Oh - and Lord, I'm the most advanced and capable of all of your creations but PLEASE think for me too so I don't have to do it on my own." SAVE IT!!! If there is a God, she set things in motion for us to EXIST and for us as people to figure the rest out on our own - and we as a people are failing miserably at that. Falling on your knees praying for God to help your neighbor when YOU are your neighbors neighbor - NOT God. If there is a God she is probably disappointed about thumpers asking for "help" for things that she has given you all the power to change on your own. I see it all the time when people pray... "God please help those that are less fortunate than we are.", then you get up and throw away half a plate of food b/c it didn't taste right. YOU HELP THOSE PEOPLE!! Stop playing yourself short and give yourself more credit sirs. People have missed the whole ship and it's disgusting.

PLEASE show me where I said I hate Christianity. I'd like to see that... and again, God has never let me down. I EXIST - that is fine for me and is enough for me. Don't try to see me man, that's too tall of an order for you --- trust me. Stick w/ what you think you know.:cheers:


i lol'd...really i did.

[BABY J]

actually no. I've learned people who brag about their I.Q. usually have little. Again, I laugh at you making fun of how marketable my wife is, or our life situation when really you have no idea. I would say all around you're just ignorant.

Okay, well since you OBVIOUSLY are having problems comprehending my posts I will break it down for you since you are arguing with yourself. LOL. My post simply means that in my view, even if you/your wife DIDN'T pray, you would still have the same offers that you have than if you did. THAT is what I am trying to get you to see and understand. THAT is why I said I didn't pray, yet still didn't have an issue that your wife did. (by the way, I am not laughing at that --> being out of work is not something I wish on any1 and I'm glad she's got the ball rolling in her favor). You obv feel that I attacked you/her and that was NOT the case at all. Me saying that I made myself marketable for the offers I get, is saying that YOUR WIFE did the same (not God). God did not take time out Her existance to blow magic dust on the hiring managers to show your wife any favor.

You obv don't understand... so let me help you out. Imagine it this way. Your wife (a believer) gets hired... and because of that a pre-existing employee Suzy Smith (a believer) gets fired b/c of your wife coming on-board. Suzy has been praying (to the same God that you and your wife are praying to) that she keeps her job w/ all of the new hires coming on-board, but gets fired anyway. What makes your wife more special in a God's eye than Suzy? Why does God choose to bless you an danswer yoru prayers, yet not answer Suzie's sincere prayer to remain in her position as well?

[creman]

:)
You do make me smile. I'll give you that.

[BABY J]

i lol'd...really i did.

Don't laugh --- Creman says that laughing is hostile.

[creman]

Don't laugh --- Creman says that laughing is hostile.

I'm sorry, I assumed you wouldn't need this considering you're so smart, and a self proclaimed genius.




Hostile \Hos"tile\, a. [L. hostilis, from hostis enemy: cf. F. hostile. See Host (http://www.dictionary.net/searchbox.php?st=2&query=Host&PHPSESSID=69fc86e14b6dbd1952276e5133caeb69) an army.]

Belonging or appropriate to an enemy; showing the disposition of an enemy; showing ill will and malevolence, or a desire to thwart and injure; occupied by an enemy or enemies; inimical; unfriendly; as, a hostile force; hostile intentions; a hostile country; hostile to a sudden change.

Syn: Warlike; inimical; unfriendly; antagonistic; opposed; adverse; opposite; contrary; repugnant.


I highlighted the ones that apply, to make it easier for you because obviously you're not as smart as you claim.

The funny thing is I just wanted a civil conversation, but you obviously can't do that so really there is no point in this being continued. I really do wish you luck in life, and despite that you may hate this I'm going to pray for you. good luck man, and I hope you find happiness. true happiness.

[BABY J]

These 2 quotes were directed at Creman earlier in the thread:


I don't need your repsonse... at the end of the day your stance boils down to "you gotta have faith" when you're cornered or questioned. I undertand --- trust that. And as far as hate... I don't have the "stuff" required to hate any1... that's not a part of my DNA.

Good luck sir. Respect.


Angry? When and where? In fact I am laughing at you - not angry at all. I have never been hostile towards anyones beliefs - that's what the religious wars are/were about. I've always said that I'm all about people being who they wanna be. But they laughed at Jesus --- so WHO ARE YOU? You think you get a free ride? NOT.

I believe in me. PERIOD. As I said --- respect.

and this was directed to Geoff:


That's b/c I don't disrespect your view even though I don't agree with it. LOL - did you find it funny that I made a gender reference to God being a "She" and a "her"? I did.

I can SOOOO see how hostile I am. It's pathetic.:rolleyes:

And yes Creman I am very happy in life. Why would I hate the fact that you pray for me? I'm the grandson of a preacher and come from a religious family --- I'm used to it. In fact, I get more prayer than anything else from my family - lol. I can dig it - although it won't help me IMO, it def won't hurt anything.:D And if it makes my family feel better to pray for me when they pray I wouldn't take that sense of satisfaction from them just to be an ass.

I wish you the best and I hope that you live this life as it's the only life that you have - and I hope that you can make moves to move mountains in your life instead of waiting for "something" to move them for you.

No hard feelings I hope - the yard that we all live in on Earth is too small to waste time fighting in:goodjob: . All I ask from people is to think a little bit and don't downplay your OWN strengths that you have been given. IMO we weren't given the most advaced brains on the planet to disregard it and zombie out for 4 minutes at night w/ it idling while whispering to Mr. Invisible. :cheers:

[geoff]

baby j i gotta give it to you man...you sure stay with your beliefs and have yet to let emotion get a hold of you. you are a master debator...no pun intended. but on a serious note. creman you my friend let your emotions get a hold of you. i am happy you found God and He has answered you but you have to understand that Jesus Himself said that we would be hated for His names sake. not saying baby j hates you.

and babyj the funny thing is that God doesnt just give anything to anyone. He wiill open the door for you and it is then up to you to use the stregnth you have to complete it.

[BABY J]

and babyj the funny thing is that God doesnt just give anything to anyone. He wiill open the door for you and it is then up to you to use the stregnth you have to complete it.

My guess is that God simply made all of the door openable. I don't think that (if there was a God) that She would show you the door - nor open it. She has just made this life where there are lots of doors - and that it's TOTALLY up to you/us to open those doors and walk through them. Too many times I see people w/ their hands up waiting for a hand out, totally disregarding the brainpower and control (I think you call it free-will) that God has given us in that life. But that's my raggedy ass opinion - who asked me. :)

+1 to Choi, Geoff, Sport, and Creman for standing by your convictions as well. This is never a personal debate - I'm never attacking who you are or your familes... I'm not that guy. Just getting my flavor of kool-aid out there on the table and you can drink all of it, some of it, or you can leave it and drink none of it. I hope there is never any respect lost as people behind these debates. I do learn something every time that a few of you post... if that wasn't the case then I'd never chime in on these subjects. It's all love.:love:

J'son

[quickdodge®]

wait, so you can believe in alien races that we have no proof of, but then scoff at the idea of God? Irony at it's best I suppose.

Irony? Really? We have much more proof of aliens than we do of God. In fact, I don't know of ANY proof that God exists. Later, QD.

[Crazy Asian]

yeah no offense but I dont buy into that bs that alien exists too. Really all those are claimed proofs are just like proof that God exists. There's really no hard evidence just like God. Like my Air Force buddy said quote on quote those reported sightings in the US are none other govern't airplanes mocked to look like UFOs or something along the line so that the other countries dont know what it is. Yes I know there are hundreds of other galaxies but it takes almost a million years to get here, possibly even more so either they must have some crazy technology or they're just superbeings.

[J-ROCK]

yeah no offense but I dont buy into that bs that alien exists too. Really all those are claimed proofs are just like proof that God exists. There's really no hard evidence just like God. Like my Air Force buddy said quote on quote those reported sightings in the US are none other govern't airplanes mocked to look like UFOs or something along the line so that the other countries dont know what it is. Yes I know there are hundreds of other galaxies but it takes almost a million years to get here, possibly even more so either they must have some crazy technology or they're just superbeings.

or they mistakenly found a loop hole that linked ours to theirs! just saying it could happen! and this topic does make a little sense! because how do we know that humans didnt know what the alien was saying so they used what they had and claimed he said that! who knows! not wanting to argue on the subject just figuered id add what i thought!

[geoff]

babyj your cool in my book man. we are both just trying to live our lives by our own beliefs man. and as far as the open doors thing goes the bible teaches that yes we open our own doors but if you have a certain need and ask God to open a certain door for you than He will, its then up to you to go through it. He will never just do anthing for you but help you get it done. and just curious why do you call God a she?

[sport_122]

Hey, Jason.

It's obvious that 'creman' dude cannot comprehend anything that you have been saying. All he's doing it using a primitive style of combat. Using the same old played out routine that I heard back when I was in middle school. It didn't work then and it won't work now - so let's just worry about people who actually seem to be a little smart when it comes to this topic like; sport_122, and maybe geoff.

But from the looks of it they too are running out of things to say. Whereas I(and I'm sure you too) can keep this up for weeks.

Nope, I have plenty to say. I am working on a new project at work, and I am behind, but I plan on getting on this tomorrow evening...but this is probably turning out to be one of the better threads in this section.

I just need to catch up with the reading then I will drop a reply tomorrow.

[sport_122]

But i didn't want to wait on this one...


yeah no offense but I dont buy into that bs that alien exists too. Really all those are claimed proofs are just like proof that God exists. There's really no hard evidence just like God. Like my Air Force buddy said quote on quote those reported sightings in the US are none other govern't airplanes mocked to look like UFOs or something along the line so that the other countries dont know what it is. Yes I know there are hundreds of other galaxies but it takes almost a million years to get here, possibly even more so either they must have some crazy technology or they're just superbeings.

With the absolutely minimal understanding we have of our own world what makes you think that an older civilization(s) would be limited in their knowledge of travel and as limited in their technology as we are?

Did you watch that video on the first page (watch the series 9 vids). There is more evidence to support the existence of extra terrestrials than you obvious can read. The problem is that much of it gets ignored and dismissed by people who refuse to believe.

But the refusal is based on ignoring the tesimony of thousands of people across the world, including astronauts, pilots, naval officers, military intelligence officers, and then some. If you can't listen to the word of professionals, then who do you listen to?

[J-ROCK]

i just think of it like this, why worry about the past just live in the moment and whatever happens happens! no point in arguing over things such as religion cause there is no definate answer its just opinion agianst opinion, thats it!

[Crazy Asian]

But i didn't want to wait on this one...



With the absolutely minimal understanding we have of our own world what makes you think that an older civilization(s) would be limited in their knowledge of travel and as limited in their technology as we are?

Did you watch that video on the first page (watch the series 9 vids). There is more evidence to support the existence of extra terrestrials than you obvious can read. The problem is that much of it gets ignored and dismissed by people who refuse to believe.

But the refusal is based on ignoring the tesimony of thousands of people across the world, including astronauts, pilots, naval officers, military intelligence officers, and then some. If you can't listen to the word of professionals, then who do you listen to?

So what you're saying theres thousands of other proofs that God exists and we ignore them? And over centuries many people that have encountered God we're just ignoring them? That's the beauty of this topic. No one can have definite proof of the things we believe in and when we do people just start bashing you. I believe in God. If you want to say that I believe in God because it makes me secure go for it. If it makes you happy and able to make you sleep at night, then do it. If you say I lack a brain then believe that. BELIEVE anything that makes you secure. :rolleyes:

[Crazy Asian]

Also if there were technologies as such as you say harnessed by other civilization wouldn't they have contacted us by now? IE coming down and talking to us instead of running away when we spot them? And if they did wouldn't we see some kind of new explanation by the govern't instead of cover ups or conspiracy theories? Whatever, believe in what you believe and just be fine with it. There's no need to bring a subject up that personally dejects one belief and making yourself feel good. I know QD just like to prove things wrong and Maniac just hates God in general or maybe likes him :thinking: ? Others I applaud your effort to prove or to disprove the topic that the OP brought up. If you get a thrill off of it wow get a life.

[d993s]

Jesus was a alien faggot who got rammed daily and nightly by his 12 gay lovers.
He sucked mucho cocko

[d993s]

Anyone claiming to have "proof of God" is plain ignorant.

[Maniacc]

lol @ david busting outta nowhere! Sup dude!

[d993s]

babyj your cool in my book man. we are both just trying to live our lives by our own beliefs man. and as far as the open doors thing goes the bible teaches that yes we open our own doors but if you have a certain need and ask God to open a certain door for you than He will, its then up to you to go through it. He will never just do anthing for you but help you get it done. and just curious why do you call God a she?

Hear that Maniac? Ask god if the closet door will be opened for you to unleash the remainder of your pent up faggottry

[Maniacc]

Nope, I have plenty to say. I am working on a new project at work, and I am behind, but I plan on getting on this tomorrow evening...but this is probably turning out to be one of the better threads in this section.

I just need to catch up with the reading then I will drop a reply tomorrow.
Catch up on your work then get back to us when your brain finishes cooling off. You're going to need it if you wish to continue going back and forth with me. :D

[d993s]

lol @ david busting outta nowhere! Sup dude!

HAHA! Decided to get on IA, haven't been on here in a long time.
Whats up with you fools

[Maniacc]

Hear that Maniac? Ask god if the closet door will be opened for you to unleash the remainder of your pent up faggottry
Fuckoff, cuh. :D

When are you going to come visit us here in GA again?

[d993s]

Fuckoff, cuh. :D

When are you going to come visit us here in GA again?
In about 2 weeks

[Maniacc]

HAHA! Decided to get on IA, haven't been on here in a long time.
Whats up with you fools
Well since I've moved out on my own I haven't really talked to anyone. It's been a good month or two since I've even talked to the regulars. I have no time anymore man. Rent is more important than spending time doing the same old shit at bp, ya know?

[Maniacc]

Oh and no more suby. :D

http://i29.tinypic.com/2s99g0k.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/dfkj8x.jpg

Totalled.

Shit happened on the 8th of this month, man. Long story. I'll tell you all about it in 2 weeks.

Sucks that god wasn't there to help me. That asshole.

[d993s]

Well since I've moved out on my own I haven't really talked to anyone. It's been a good month or two since I've even talked to the regulars. I have no time anymore man. Rent is more important than spending time doing the same old shit at bp, ya know?

Yes, responsibilities become almost unavoidable as you get older.
You still with that gringa?

[Crazy Asian]

Oh and no more suby. :D

http://i29.tinypic.com/2s99g0k.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/dfkj8x.jpg

Totalled.

Shit happened on the 8th of this month, man. Long story. I'll tell you all about it in 2 weeks.

Sucks that god wasn't there to help me. That asshole.

Damn what the hell happened to your car?

[d993s]

Oh and no more suby. :D

http://i29.tinypic.com/2s99g0k.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/dfkj8x.jpg

Totalled.

Shit happened on the 8th of this month, man. Long story. I'll tell you all about it in 2 weeks.

Sucks that god wasn't there to help me. That asshole.

Fucking god; that imaginary fag was busy sucking satan's cock while you wrecked.

[Maniacc]

Damn what the hell happened to your car?
Long story.

Don't really feel like posting it on IA.


Yes, responsibilities become almost unavoidable as you get older.
You still with that gringa?
Yea man. Life's tough.

And yes. I am still with the gringa lol.

[Maniacc]

Fucking god; that imaginary fag was busy sucking satan's cock while you wrecked.
:lmao:

[d993s]

How the fuck did you wreck your WRX? Were you trying to outhandle an EVO or something???

[d993s]

^^^(yes, that was sigworthy)

[Maniacc]

How the fuck did you wreck your WRX? Were you trying to outhandle an EVO or something???
Nah nothing like that man.

Was just minding my own bidness - on my way to work. Then shit just happens. I'll tell you about it in person.

[d993s]

Nah nothing like that man.

Was just minding my own bidness - on my way to work. Then shit just happens. I'll tell you about it in person.

I bet you were driving along, and after stopping at a light you look over and saw this

[d993s]

And later you were like....WTF???? And lost control and wrecked>

[Maniacc]

haha fucking david.

I'm off to bed man. Work's fucking owning my colon. Lemme know when you get into town, dude. I'll come out just for you. :goodjob:

Be safe out there man. later

[geoff]

you see its things like this that dont need to be posted. with the pic above and all. how would you like it if someone posted a pic of your mom getting gang banged or your father giving head in prison? im sorry but its just not neccesary man.

[quickdodge®]

you see its things like this that dont need to be posted. with the pic above and all. how would you like it if someone posted a pic of your mom getting gang banged or your father giving head in prison? im sorry but its just not neccesary man.

That's not your Mom or your Father. Later, QD.

[geoff]

but to me it feels the same. its just as much as an insult

[quickdodge®]

So you think of Jesus as your Mom and Father? Isn't that kind of weird? Later, QD.

[geoff]

in a sense yes. He gave me life.

[quickdodge®]

He gave me life.

Or at least so you believe. Later,QD.

[geoff]

yes. thats why i find it offensive

[creman]

wow. I left for a day and this think blew up.




Hey, Jason.

It's obvious that 'creman' dude cannot comprehend anything that you have been saying. All he's doing it using a primitive style of combat. Using the same old played out routine that I heard back when I was in middle school. It didn't work then and it won't work now - so let's just worry about people who actually seem to be a little smart when it comes to this topic like; sport_122, and maybe geoff.

But from the looks of it they too are running out of things to say. Whereas I(and I'm sure you too) can keep this up for weeks.

Ha ha. In other words, "I don't know what to say so let's call him stupid and then we can continue ignoring the facts."
Look, believe what you want man, but you're wrong.

[quickdodge®]

but you're wrong.

I'm just asking, not flaming, but which part is he wrong about? Later, QD.

[d993s]

Some people try to pass off their beliefs in imaginary beings as facts.
Parents are real and THEY are the ones who give you life. God, santa clause and pinocchio are imaginary due to lack of even the slightest evidence that they exist, so taking offense to someone insulting an imaginary being is plain ridiculous.

[d993s]

God bukkakied on jesus' face and flies carried the jism to Mary's twat, impregnating her while she was assfucked by satan.

[quickdodge®]

Some people try to pass off their beliefs in imaginary beings as facts.
Parents are real and THEY are the ones who give you life. God, santa clause and pinocchio are imaginary due to lack of even the slightest evidence that they exist, so taking offense to someone insulting an imaginary being is plain ridiculous.

And at least there are sightings of Santa Claus. Every year you can track Santa's travel path on MSNBC.com. Later, QD.

[d993s]

^^^Now that would make a great movie

[d993s]

And at least there are sightings of Santa Claus. Every year you can track Santa's travel path on MSNBC.com. Later, QD.

Damn it, you're right.....god even has less credibility than santa fucking clause

[geoff]

i guess you d993s have failed to look at any of the previous threads to see that there is evidence. people like you just blatently ignore these and rag on those people who believe. you are very close minded and blind to the things around you. i hope one day you open your eyes up and see things for how they really are. i pray for people like you that have very small intellectual state of mind and think that someone as small as you or me or anyone else can actually begin to comprehend God.

[Maniacc]

i guess you d993s have failed to look at any of the previous threads to see that there is evidence. people like you just blatently ignore these and rag on those people who believe. you are very close minded and blind to the things around you. i hope one day you open your eyes up and see things for how they really are. i pray for people like you that have very small intellectual state of mind and think that someone as small as you or me or anyone else can actually begin to comprehend God.
Haha, d993s and I have had a few conversations in person about religion and he's not an idiot. Goofy, but not an idiot. Some people just don't care to sugar-coat their posts and feel that it's not necessary to argue with someone - they rather just fire away and move along instead of making sure if their bullets hit their target.

[quickdodge®]

failed to look at any of the previous threads to see that there is evidence.

Where are these evidences? Name a couple right here and now. Something that does NOT start with the letter F and end with aith. Name a tangible piece of evidence. Later, QD.

[geoff]

conscience, prophecy, morals, ethics, biology, anatomy...list goes on. i can give you intense studies done by scientists and unbelievers with refrences too if you like.

[Maniacc]

i can give you intense studies done by scientists and unbelievers with refrences too if you like.
I'd like to see them.

[quickdodge®]

conscience, prophecy, morals, ethics, biology, anatomy...list goes on. i can give you intense studies done by scientists and unbelievers with refrences too if you like.

Lolol. So nothing tangible. Photos, videos, nothing of the sort. Only things that can't be seen.

Conscience, morals, ethics (which is the same as morals) are all inner "feeling" type devices. Where is the proof that God is the reason for this?

Biology and anatomy (again the same thing) are proof of what? That we are miraculous in nature. But that also is not proof that God did it.

Prophecy? Really?

Like I said, you have no real evidence, except faith, that God exists. You have faith that God made humans and their emotions and feelings.

Faith is your ONLY "evidence" that there is a God. Later, QD.

[geoff]

look in the thread " do you believe in God? simple question" and read my posts on this. im not gonna waste my time to repost it here so you guys can just ignore it. like i have stated before God Himself could come down and slap you in the face and begin to have 5 hour conversation with you and you would still somehow try to write it off as some strange anomoly or aliens abducting you. if you really are interested in learning read the posts if not then continue living as a horse being lead with blinders on.

[quickdodge®]

im not gonna waste my time to repost it here so you guys can just ignore it.

If you're going to spread the word and the power and the glory of God, then there is no such thing as "wasting my time" by not doing a simple COPY/PASTE of your preachings. You sall be struck by this Faith that you carry for turning your backs on the downtrodden. The ills of society. The "non-believers." Real "men of God" don't think of their spreading the knowledge of the "man upstairs" as a waste of time. No matter who they are speaking too and whether or not that person learns or listens to them. So cut out the Holier-Than-Thou crap because you have faith in something that faith is the only proof and just accept that not everyone believes the same as you. Later, QD.

[d993s]

"riding for god crew member 1" and "whereever god leads"....hmmm hope you don't end up doing something crazy.
What if god leads you to ride on a big fat horsecock? Will you do it?

[geoff]

honestly bro do you realize the things that you say? grow up man

[d993s]

honestly bro do you realize the things that you say? grow up man
Come on, god is "mysterious" right? What if he wants you to ride a horsecock. You could do it in the name of Jayzus

[d993s]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQMG9f0HC0

[Dr.G35]

honestly bro do you realize the things that you say? grow up man
his immaturity blinds him, its kind of like his brains self-protection mechanism.

[d993s]

his immaturity blinds him, its kind of like his brains self-protection mechanism.

Mature or not, I don't worship imaginary beings

[geoff]

really man you are so immature. how do you survive in this world? and as far as me not wanting to take the time and post the studies this has been a hell of a week for me with a family loss and God forgive me but i just dont feel like posting them right now

[Dr.G35]

Mature or not, I don't worship imaginary beings
That's fine, you don't have to. All I'm saying is if you want people to actually take into account anything your saying in this thread, you can't just type something completely fucking stupid and expect them to take anything else you say serious.

[d993s]

That's fine, you don't have to. All I'm saying is if you want people to actually take into account anything your saying in this thread, you can't just type something completely fucking stupid and expect them to take anything else you say serious.
WHAT??? Says who?

But seriously, the slightest bit of evidence is expected in any argument. I'll wait for that

[Dr.G35]

WHAT??? Says who?

But seriously, the slightest bit of evidence is expected in any argument. I'll wait for that
lol. i keep forgetting this IA :headslap:

[sport_122]

So what you're saying theres thousands of other proofs that God exists and we ignore them? And over centuries many people that have encountered God we're just ignoring them? That's the beauty of this topic. No one can have definite proof of the things we believe in and when we do people just start bashing you. I believe in God. If you want to say that I believe in God because it makes me secure go for it. If it makes you happy and able to make you sleep at night, then do it. If you say I lack a brain then believe that. BELIEVE anything that makes you secure. :rolleyes:

What!?!...
I believe in God. I have reasons that I would consider proof of His existence, but what I said I was addressing your comments on the E.T. presence in our world. You maybe should do a little more looking. There are plenty of historical accounts that could be defined (in historical understanding of course) as the U.F.O. phenomenon.

I am saying that if you are a believer and you can read in revelations of all the beings that John saw and then say that you don't believe in other life then I don't know what you are thinking. Thats my point.

[sport_122]

Catch up on your work then get back to us when your brain finishes cooling off. You're going to need it if you wish to continue going back and forth with me. :D

..trying to figure out where to start... there is soooo much.

[sport_122]

Lolol. So nothing tangible. Photos, videos, nothing of the sort. Only things that can't be seen.

Conscience, morals, ethics (which is the same as morals) are all inner "feeling" type devices. Where is the proof that God is the reason for this?

Biology and anatomy (again the same thing) are proof of what? That we are miraculous in nature. But that also is not proof that God did it.

Prophecy? Really?

Like I said, you have no real evidence, except faith, that God exists. You have faith that God made humans and their emotions and feelings.

Faith is your ONLY "evidence" that there is a God. Later, QD.

In fairness to understanding of the tangibility of all things, can you demonstrate to me tangible evidence of logic, love, grace, radio waves, the existence of the Andromeda Galaxy... All of these things require us to use the understanding that we have to be able to logically identify certain things without tangible evidence. For instance, you use logic every day to keep you alive, but it is not tangible, yet without it you would be dead and our civilization would not exist.

my point is that if you are asking someone to define a transcendent God (beyond understanding) then you cannot ask for tangibility as that requires something that can be touched which denotes understanding. However, you can ask for reasons for the persons faith, understanding that what is being presented to you is a case for their faith as based on the Bible believers are NOT supposed to believe blindly, but we are supposed to be able to present clearly the reasons for our faith. Cases for faith in science are considered proof even though they are just as valid as faith in anything provided we adhere to the existence of logic (again, something intangible guiding us). For instance the arguments on evolution, whether you believe it or not have not been concluded to be 100%, so there is a measure of faith because there still is no tangible evidence...there are only reasons to make the case for it.

The Faith that I have (and I assume Geoff) is based not off of just hearing and believing. It is also based off of an appealing to the senses of our world and the demonstration of its order and its law that exists in ALL things. I use science, philosophy, sociology, the Bible, history, and many other tools provided to us, with the understanding that if what I believe to be true, is true, then it will be demonstrated in ALL things. As what I believe is that our universe functions on laws and without these laws there would be no sciences, no morality, and no history to study, and we would not be having this discussion because the (lawlessness) of our universe would not have reasonably yielded this intelligence to us.

Lastly, my tangibility lies in the one who is the Christ. I can get you numerous names of scholarly authors who will tell you that this man not only lived, but he performed miracles, (which I can define in another post if it comes up) and there is good reason to believe that he did not stay dead after his death.

Please ask questions if you don't understand me.

[sport_122]

WHAT??? Says who?

But seriously, the slightest bit of evidence is expected in any argument. I'll wait for that

the above post is also for you then...but please be reasonable. I would love to invite anyone into discussion, but many of your posts are just uncalled for. And also, if you want to rebuttal, please make sure your evidence is apparent so that I can understand your thought process.

[d993s]

If your post above is supposed to prove something, it doesn't.
Faith= belief. Proof and evidence do not require faith, since it becomes redundant.
I didn't ask what color the red car is....

[sport_122]

If your post above is supposed to prove something, it doesn't.
Faith= belief. Proof and evidence do not require faith, since it becomes redundant.
I didn't ask what color the red car is....

wrong...that is NOT what I said at all. I said that my faith is not based off of nothing. But in describing my faith, you cannot assume that ALL things should be tangible because proof cannot logically be based on tangibility. My faith is based off of a compilation of reasoning and logical rational when I use the numerous resources given to me by God to see him apart from blind faith. And those resources are not tangible. Can you put science in my hand? Can you put philosophy or history in my hand? No. These are not physical things. They are conceptualized to define human action or a framework of human study.

Proof and evidence do require faith. Nobody can prove anything to you if you do not have faith that the evidence is sound or it was reasonable and rationally gathered. Even in a science lab, if you feel like I have tampered with the experiment then my results in your mind will be void. This is even demonstrated in this post, when some of us believe that there is definitely an extraterrestrial presence on our planet, and some of us (even having seen the same evidence) reject it.

[sport_122]

Angry? When and where? In fact I am laughing at you - not angry at all. I have never been hostile towards anyones beliefs - that's what the religious wars are/were about. I've always said that I'm all about people being who they wanna be. But they laughed at Jesus --- so WHO ARE YOU? You think you get a free ride? NOT.

I believe in me. PERIOD. As I said --- respect. :cheers:

Baby J...
do you not see that "people being who they want to be," and "respect" are not usually linked? As we have discussed before. what if who I am means that I do NOT respect you and should not. ex. KKK, Black Panthers, any number of Israeli and Palestinian groups etc. In these cases these individuals all are who they want to be, but by definition they are going to hate someone else. Where does that line get crossed between this being okay.

What takes precedence? Your views or the respect? Because either way I don't see how I can come to that same conclusion as a world view. What I mean is that we all need each other and everyone is counting on the individual to do their part so I don't see where that method would work in society.

but, you are right...they did laugh at Jesus, the man who preached loving others before yourself and God above all (I see how that works), which is why I am not surprised or shocked when I get laughed at and you put up with me in these discussions enough that the laughing is just a part of our correspondence. :goodjob:

[geoff]

sport i know this is off topic but i have been meaning to ask you...what are your beliefs on God? how do you believe we as men obtain salvation?

[sport_122]

sport i know this is off topic but i have been meaning to ask you...what are your beliefs on God? how do you believe we as men obtain salvation?

:rolleyes:simple answer is yes. But there are some semantics there that are a part of my theology. you got a PM

[d993s]

wrong...that is NOT what I said at all. I said that my faith is not based off of nothing. But in describing my faith, you cannot assume that ALL things should be tangible because proof cannot logically be based on tangibility. My faith is based off of a compilation of reasoning and logical rational when I use the numerous resources given to me by God to see him apart from blind faith. And those resources are not tangible. Can you put science in my hand? Can you put philosophy or history in my hand? No. These are not physical things. They are conceptualized to define human action or a framework of human study.

Proof and evidence do require faith. Nobody can prove anything to you if you do not have faith that the evidence is sound or it was reasonable and rationally gathered. Even in a science lab, if you feel like I have tampered with the experiment then my results in your mind will be void. This is even demonstrated in this post, when some of us believe that there is definitely an extraterrestrial presence on our planet, and some of us (even having seen the same evidence) reject it.
HAHAHA!
Again, faith has no logic, no reason, and "resources given by god" is also a belief, NOT A FACT.

[d993s]

Come on, let's move onto "miracles" done by god....
I once gave $500 to a poor christian family who was in need. I never told them it was from me. Back then I went to church and they actually announced it as a "MIRACLE" from god!!!!!
WELL FOCKEN AYE, I guess that makes me GOD! LMFAO! It's been over 10 years, and they still talk about it as a "miracle from god". I bet if I told them that it was ME who gave them the $, they would say something like "god instructed you to do it" to which I would reply "no, actually I was fucking your daughter at the time and felt the need to do a regular-ass good deed because it's satifying knowing that you helped someone.

[d993s]

sport i know this is off topic but i have been meaning to ask you...what are your beliefs on God? how do you believe we as men obtain salvation?

LSD, shrooms, crack cocaine, heroin, believing in things that have never been proven to exist, a powerful shock to the brain......either one of these will get you there.

WTF!!?

When you learn to accept mortality as a fact of life on this planet, you will realize that there is no salvation. Stop dreaming, live your life, leave your mark in history (hopefully in a positive way), and do what you can to improve and allow intelligence to expand as rapidly as possible (religious beliefs have always hindered or denied human advancement)

[sport_122]

HAHAHA!
Again, faith has no logic, no reason, and "resources given by god" is also a belief, NOT A FACT.

if you believe that faith and fact cannot coexist on the same subject matter then do you do not believe in the orbit of the earth as it was calculated thousands of years ago, the moon, the sun, the galaxy which were all identified millenia ago, etc. Do you believe evolution is real? Do you believe that going to college will yield you a higher paying job, or adding a certain part will make your car faster than someone elses. These are all actions that people take first based off of observational experience, then based off of faith, and then can easily become fact.


Come on, let's move onto "miracles" done by god....
I once gave $500 to a poor christian family who was in need. I never told them it was from me. Back then I went to church and they actually announced it as a "MIRACLE" from god!!!!!
WELL FOCKEN AYE, I guess that makes me GOD! LMFAO! It's been over 10 years, and they still talk about it as a "miracle from god". I bet if I told them that it was ME who gave them the $, they would say something like "god instructed you to do it" to which I would reply "no, actually I was fucking your daughter at the time and felt the need to do a regular-ass good deed because it's satifying knowing that you helped someone.

but who told you that I would call this a miracle. I wouldn't. I would call it provision. Provision is a result of all the factors of your life coming together at one time. And where need (not greed or desire) meet at supply or sustenance, I would call that provision. Provision can be explained away easily by some and there is room for interpretation, however as the two random things flow together, I believe it is God who determines those moments. But those aren't miracles by definition.

By definition miracles are what happens OUTSIDE the regular laws of the universe/ our world. an example that you point to is the resurrection. I have mentioned it several times because it is THAT important, as even YOU said

When you learn to accept mortality as a fact of life on this planet, you will realize that there is no salvation. Stop dreaming, live your life, leave your mark in history (hopefully in a positive way), and do what you can to improve and allow intelligence to expand as rapidly as possible (religious beliefs have always hindered or denied human advancement)

This is where the miracle really rears it ugly head for the non believer. And this is what I would call a miracle. If people were being raised from the dead all the time this would go un noticed because it would be natural. this event has left a HUGE mark on our world history. There have been hordes of historians who have tried to disprove it, but cannot. Because of several reasons.

First, the explosion of the Christian church immediately after the death and resurrection of Christ. Had he not risen, the messages that he spoke and the deeds that he did would have been immediately dismissed as he openly claimed that he would rise again.

Second, There are plenty of first Century Roman historians who have written about the man of Christ and about his death and his followers and the miracles that they were known to have worked.

Third, did you know that after his resurrection he is said to have been on this earth for no less than 40 days. At that time there were hundreds of witnesses who saw him, and his physical body and his ascension.

The list goes on an on. Modern day secular historians have said that they cannot dismiss this miracle as it is accounted for through many records that are NOT of biblical foundation.

I could point you in the direction of plenty of authors, secular and religious, who will tell you that the story of the resurrection cannot be easily dismissed to a hoax and should be looked at with intent to understand it because its place and meaning are so profound to who we are.

And if almost 2000 years of history and knowledge have not discredited the resurrection, and the story is still powerful in our world then there obviously is something to it.

I say all this knowing that what I said before still holds true. You have decided to close your mind to this possibility for what it is and replace it with that which you know to be a part of the laws of existence when in the resurrection, and the miracles performed by Christ, He established his authority to us by defining what we knew to be the laws of our universe and then showing that His power alone could break those laws. That power was later given to the disciples. And what is even more ironic is that you believe in the laws of our world and not a lawlessness, yet just as in the commandments the law was established so that the opposite of the law could be given light.

This is what defines miracles, this is how God demonstrated himself to men all over the world, but we get so used to the "norm" that we ignore the existence of the abnormal. We are currently in a period where we are trying to ignore morality and its origins and next we will try to dismiss the laws of nature and surely enough we will be put in our place again. How? I don't know but history shows that we have a habit of forgetting our problems in favor of embracing and living by sight, when it is very obvious that our world is made up of much more than what we can see.

[d993s]

You're fucking hilarious.
Again, you have elaborated on your personal BELIEFS, none which show fact, proof, evidence...WOW

[d993s]

Did you know that a extremely similar story of jesus and his life was told about 1000 years before jesus was born? And no, it wasn't a prophecy.
Actually, a few similar stories were told before his time.
Religion's purpose is control thru fear. And it works

[quickdodge®]

In fairness to understanding of the tangibility of all things, can you demonstrate to me tangible evidence of logic, love, grace, radio waves, the existence of the Andromeda Galaxy... All of these things require us to use the understanding that we have to be able to logically identify certain things without tangible evidence. For instance, you use logic every day to keep you alive, but it is not tangible, yet without it you would be dead and our civilization would not exist.

my point is that if you are asking someone to define a transcendent God (beyond understanding) then you cannot ask for tangibility as that requires something that can be touched which denotes understanding. However, you can ask for reasons for the persons faith, understanding that what is being presented to you is a case for their faith as based on the Bible believers are NOT supposed to believe blindly, but we are supposed to be able to present clearly the reasons for our faith. Cases for faith in science are considered proof even though they are just as valid as faith in anything provided we adhere to the existence of logic (again, something intangible guiding us). For instance the arguments on evolution, whether you believe it or not have not been concluded to be 100%, so there is a measure of faith because there still is no tangible evidence...there are only reasons to make the case for it.

The Faith that I have (and I assume Geoff) is based not off of just hearing and believing. It is also based off of an appealing to the senses of our world and the demonstration of its order and its law that exists in ALL things. I use science, philosophy, sociology, the Bible, history, and many other tools provided to us, with the understanding that if what I believe to be true, is true, then it will be demonstrated in ALL things. As what I believe is that our universe functions on laws and without these laws there would be no sciences, no morality, and no history to study, and we would not be having this discussion because the (lawlessness) of our universe would not have reasonably yielded this intelligence to us.

Lastly, my tangibility lies in the one who is the Christ. I can get you numerous names of scholarly authors who will tell you that this man not only lived, but he performed miracles, (which I can define in another post if it comes up) and there is good reason to believe that he did not stay dead after his death.

Please ask questions if you don't understand me.

I most certainly do NOT understand anything you wrote. I simply asked for tangible (something I can actually see or hear or touch). And by those I don't mean to see Bible. I don't mean to hear a preacher preach. I don't mean to touch whatever Christian people touch to make them believe. I want to see a ripped piece of God's clothing. I want to see an actual photo of God. The only form of proof believers have in His existence is their faith in Him.

No one will ever be able to provide materialistic proof of the Dude.

I haven't really said my stance on this topic (and it isn't what my posts may being saying about it). I am a questioning believer. I think i believe in Heaven and Hell and God and all. But I just have millions of questions about the whole thing. I am a realist, as well. When folks say there is proof everywhere of God's existence, I ask for real proof. And I don't want to hear, look around you. So I'm not a complete atheist or anything close to it, but more so "need actual proof before I can believe it fully" type of person. If you get what I'm saying. Later, QD.

[d993s]

Don't worry QD, if you have a question about anything religion or faith related, I'm sure an opinionated christian's answer will be invented for you: "pray about it", etc.
Never a clear answer. Never any proof or evidence. Everything is faith-based except of course the reality of converting one to that particular belief and condemning or killing those who refuse (as many have done).

[TIGERJC]

wow haven't seen you in a long time

[quickdodge®]

Don't worry QD, if you have a question about anything religion or faith related, I'm sure an opinionated christian's answer will be invented for you: "pray about it", etc.
Never a clear answer. Never any proof or evidence. Everything is faith-based except of course the reality of converting one to that particular belief and condemning or killing those who refuse (as many have done).

That's why I don't really talk to "pure" Christian folks. I will be told the same thing with a biased opinion on it. Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

wow haven't seen you in a long time

Really? I'm here every damn day. Later, QD.

[sport_122]

I most certainly do NOT understand anything you wrote. I simply asked for tangible (something I can actually see or hear or touch). And by those I don't mean to see Bible. I don't mean to hear a preacher preach. I don't mean to touch whatever Christian people touch to make them believe. I want to see a ripped piece of God's clothing. I want to see an actual photo of God. The only form of proof believers have in His existence is their faith in Him.

No one will ever be able to provide materialistic proof of the Dude.

I haven't really said my stance on this topic (and it isn't what my posts may being saying about it). I am a questioning believer. I think i believe in Heaven and Hell and God and all. But I just have millions of questions about the whole thing. I am a realist, as well. When folks say there is proof everywhere of God's existence, I ask for real proof. And I don't want to hear, look around you. So I'm not a complete atheist or anything close to it, but more so "need actual proof before I can believe it fully" type of person. If you get what I'm saying. Later, QD.

I think I understand you and I apologize for the complexity. It is very hard to try to discuss this kind of stuff on a forum. I am just approaching the problem of proof as it is asked for all the time. We ask for something we can touch and grasp but people have done that. Christ was real, he was touched, he ate, we was physical and spiritual and universal all at once. He has a specific purpose in our history and he served that purpose and he left. But people ignore the evidence that is Christ.

Also an understanding of the art of proof in debate would tell us that there is another problem with a request for proof. If believers believe that everything is of God and from God then for any skeptics of non-believers these things are not acceptable as reason to prove his existence because they are ruled out as "having come from that which is to be proved" because anything God creates points to his existence and cannot be used to prove it. I don't believe this, but that is the way that many non-theists or atheists approach the discussion.

This is based off of debate theory. You cannot use anything that has a predisposition that says something is real to prove that thing real...So the Bible would not be sufficient enough to prove that God is real, because it presupposes that God is real. I cannot logically tell anyone otherwise because I presuppose that God is real. In fact, no one who believes in God can prove his existence because presuppositions are always there if you are trying to prove his existence. You would not seek to prove that which you do not believe exists and, you would not seek to prove what you do not believe is there.

My earlier post is about the physical proof. We believe God exists in three forms. The physical, Christ. The spiritual, The Holy Spirit, and the universal, God (The Father (Creator)). The only one that can be argued reasonably through physical means is Christ and *possibly the Father (as presented to Moses, who saw his back on Mount Sinai)

so if you want physical proof of God's existence look at the person of Christ. Look at his life, death, and resurrection. He exists in history, only retards can deny that, so look at his claims and start there. Based on what we have already said, it is going to be hard to determine what is a suitable resource for you to go to, because as people who do not believe investigate many of them become believers, and we have already said that the believer is not a suitable source. So the act of asking for proof for some, only exists to substantiate their non belief because the only proof that is acceptable is the proof that agrees with a single side of the argument.

Tangibility is not always an option in making a case for something. There are things that we know are real but cannot touch. History and the study of archaeology and culture is proof of that. We have to be able to look at the compilation of evidence and make reasonable claims. those claims become our faith and they are substantiated in reasons that we have to believe. This is our study of God, our Theology which should be just as grounded in logic and observation as any other science. So belief should never be based on just blind uninformed faith this is where all the misunderstanding and misconceptions come from about the Christian faith.

is that more clear?

BTW...what I am saying to you is strongly demonstrated in posts from d993s. I could introduce him to Christ and he would not believe him. Just as the world did not know Christ when he was here, what make us think that him being here now would be convincing enough for all. this goes to show that lack of proof and evidence is not the problem. It is something in the individual who either cant or refuses to believe or is in denial.

[TIGERJC]

Sorry QD I am talking about d993, jealous

[quickdodge®]

Sorry QD I am talking about d993, jealous

Lolol. I knew. I was just interjecting a funny. Later, QD.

[TIGERJC]

I was wondering if your mind was starting to go.

[sport_122]

You're fucking hilarious.
Again, you have elaborated on your personal BELIEFS, none which show fact, proof, evidence...WOW

My personal beliefs based on evidence. If you believe in anything related to science it is based off of evidence. You believe your car will start in the morning, thats why you will not call a friend and ask for a ride to work. And yes, I elaborated, but as you can see in my last post, proof doesn't exist for those who are looking to dismiss it, it can't. Even before you ask for proof, your intent is to dismiss whatever comes out, to find a way to make the argument NOT work for your POV. So why do you ask for proof? Do you believe proof exists? If you don't why ask for it or harp on it when it is presented. I gave reason for my beliefs. Thats all I need to do. You have no real response to the reasons. All that you have is YOUR personal bias to argue because you have not studied or read of looked at the authors that I have read. I have read books by atheists, non-theists, and theists alike, and I do not agree with All of any of them, yet I have enough information to make a reasonable statement of my faith. You have nothing, but attacks on my beliefs as if you know me and know what I have been through or my experience with and before I came to faith.

The reason you will NOT be satisfied with evidence or reason to believe right now is that in your heart you don't want it. You can argue against just about anything that you want (and almost everything).

[TIGERJC]

I don't understand how anybody can believe in the bible which is equivalent to the Harry Potter book series (Magic tricks, Interesting tales and other shit that only happens in your dreams). Man is all about power, and back then religion was used to control peasants by the wealthy and nobles of that time. It's still used today for that exact reason

[sport_122]

I don't understand how anybody can believe in the bible which is equivalent to the Harry Potter book series (Magic tricks, Interesting tales and other shit that only happens in your dreams). Man is all about power, and back then religion was used to control peasants by the wealthy and nobles of that time.

but religious faiths existed within the groups of nomadic men. Even before governments and large societies. I would agree that in the last several hundreds of years, men have used faith to control people but no more or less than government, money, property, and brute force. All things can be turned upside down if you have the wrong person acting on things. So looking at a bigger picture I can agree that man is about power, but I don't believe that at the onset of our existence there was nothing. I believe that God and many other things predate human origins which means that we somehow have to find out how we fit into this grand picture.

The Bible should not be looked at as a HP book. Its not even the same type. The bible is written in a very different literary style, time and culture. If you read it like a HP book then of course it would be ridiculous. But there are many secular journals on the history of the Bible. Its just hard to find legitimate reads with all the garbage that has been posted by fanatics on both sides of the equation.

[BABY J]

if you believe that faith and fact cannot coexist on the same subject matter then do you do not believe in the orbit of the earth as it was calculated thousands of years ago, the moon, the sun, the galaxy which were all identified millenia ago, etc. Do you believe evolution is real? Do you believe that going to college will yield you a higher paying job, or adding a certain part will make your car faster than someone elses. These are all actions that people take first based off of observational experience, then based off of faith, and then can easily become fact.

This is not fair. FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for - the "evidence" of things NOT seen. So in your example FAITH would be me thinking that my 12.50 Honda will outrun a 11.50 Viper just b/c I pray really hard. The "laws" of horesepower production w/ respect to traction doesn't require FAITH. If I injest more air and fuel at the proper time w/ the spark at the right time i WILL make more horsepower. That does not require FAITH at at all, it just requires precison of all of the elements. These "elements" do not exist w/ a walk w/ God. You can see this in your explanations b/c you always factor in a "copout" w/ phrases like "Tangibility is not always an option in making a case for something" You set it up perfectly to where you get to a point that you are not held to the standard to PRODUCE - and that's a shame - really, it is.




First, the explosion of the Christian church immediately after the death and resurrection of Christ. Had he not risen, the messages that he spoke and the deeds that he did would have been immediately dismissed as he openly claimed that he would rise again.

All the reason for the Church to steal his DEAD body before others did to propagate this crap. I mean there are people trying to steal Michael Jackson's body. The popularity of the Christian church is DEFINITELY not proof of anything. When are you going to learn that people are fickle - people ride the hype for the moment. Look at MJ record sales -- people who never gave a FUCK about him are buying his shit like he is anew artist... all of a sudden we all are MJ fans. So you can imagine in a time when there is no internet, no radio, no TV, and all is word of mouth --- some quack who is more suited for a Circus act makes rediculous claims to get free foot rubs and food wherever he goes will be big news.




Come on man. Look at IA. Look at the guys that were FAST (quick) well before it was supposed to be popular to do it in a FWD Honda. The stories you hear are RETARDED. I've had people walk up to me after they realize I am "Baby J" and say "I've heard about you man --- didn't you have like a 200 shot on single cams back in the day and were outrunning turbo Vettes?" LOL. I laugh and say - "yeah, I was def one of the only guys pushing Nitrous limits on stock D series Civics, but it was nowhere NEAR 200 and I wasn't raping boosted vettes." Was I fast - you bet!! Was I pushing limit - YOU BET. But that was only in the 90s, and you see how convoluted the stories about me have gotten ALREADY!!! Now set yourself back in bible times and imagine how popular a "magician" or "side-show freak" could get IN A HURRY. 2000 years later the guy was walking on water and then dying and then being ressurected.

And since we are on writing --- why does "the church" pick and choose what books/stories were included in the final cut? What about entire BOOKS about how no matter what every1 goes to heaven that were magically not included?? These books were authored by some of the same people that have books in "your bible" already. You know why those were not included? Control.

[QUOTE=sport_122
Third, did you know that after his resurrection he is said to have been on this earth for no less than 40 days. At that time there were hundreds of witnesses who saw him, and his physical body and his ascension.

You know how many MLK, Elvis, Michael Jackson, JFK sightings there have been? People see what they want to belive and I KNOW you know this. People that are star-struck or fanatics will ALWAYS see what they want to see. I am a D series fan FOR LIFE. Even now I think that no matter WHAT kinda power you make w/ a K series, I can build a D that will outrun it - LOL. For the churches benefit he HAD to rise --- whether he rose or whether the church wanted to make it look like he did. Just add water and you have your instant hero.


We are currently in a period where we are trying to ignore morality [/b]and its origins and next we will try to dismiss the laws of nature and surely enough we will be put in our place again. How? I don't know but history shows that we have a habit of forgetting our problems in favor of embracing and living by sight, when it is very obvious that our world is made up of much more than what we can see.

You are in a place where you are trying to ignore mortality - that is a MUCH slicker slope IMO.:cheers:

I thi

[quickdodge®]

But people ignore the evidence that is Christ.

But how is Christ evidence of God? If Jesus was a miracle worker, maybe he was just born that way. Who's to say that God gave him that "power?"



Tangibility is not always an option in making a case for something. There are things that we know are real but cannot touch. History and the study of archaeology and culture is proof of that.

Archaeology is perfect proof of history, dude. You can touch the results of archaeological digs. The pottery, bones and multitudes of other items found can be touched and seen.


So belief should never be based on just blind uninformed faith this is where all the misunderstanding and misconceptions come from about the Christian faith.

Belief in God is strictly faith based. There's no other way to put it or show otherwise. I wish there was.


is that more clear?

Yes, it was.


what make us think that him being here now would be convincing enough for all.

Because, as I stated a minute ago, I don't see Christ as being evidence. There is no proof that he is of God. Later, QD.

[quickdodge®]

whether he rose or whether the church wanted to make it look like he did. Just add water and you have your instant hero.


Sounds like you're promoting Ch-Ch-Ch-Chia Jesus. Later, QD.

[slow_hatch]

I like to throw this in all the religious threads. :D
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0712/christianity-explained-god-demotivational-poster-1198455582.jpg

[slow_hatch]

Found this one funny too :D
http://www.religiouspeoplearefunny.com/image.axd?picture=2009%2F6%2Ffunny-picture-1142018091.jpg

[sport_122]

But how is Christ evidence of God? If Jesus was a miracle worker, maybe he was just born that way. Who's to say that God gave him that "power?"

Because, as I stated a minute ago, I don't see Christ as being evidence. There is no proof that he is of God. Later, QD.

The person of Christ would be evidence of God in that at his resurrection he demonstrated his ability to overcome that which the laws of our universe do not suggest that anyone or anything could overcome that was subject to such laws.

The very claims made by Christ that he was the Messiah, God in the flesh, and the connections with the prophecies that he would be the Lord of Lords. There are also claims of his origin existing during the process of creation, but that is going to be too much for this discussion.

Basically, in simple terms, Jesus said, He was God, and the people who didn't believe him or tried to stone him said prove it, and he said okay. I will die and i will be resurrected after three days. And he did.

Now the problem with the stolen body argument is that Christ was witnessed in the flesh by hundreds of people after he was buried and entombed. So to say the body was taken does not counter his physical living presence sitting next to you or speaking to crowds or knocking at your door.

Archaeology is perfect proof of history, dude. You can touch the results of archaeological digs. The pottery, bones and multitudes of other items found can be touched and seen.

Not exactly true. You cannot always touch and feel everything. There are fragments of things that are remaining and there are drawings of things that are remaining. In the case of drawings or paintings, you don't know if something never existed or not. Just because you find a picture or schematic of something doesn't mean it was built. In fact, to prove that archaeology is not exact, just look at the number of archaeologists who will say that human civilizations cannot be traced back more than 7 or 8 thousand years, versus the ones who say, 10, and the onese who say 12 and so on. This shows that even in their fields there is a place of where evidence is not always accepted and does not necessarily lead to conforming views. This is also big with the evolution discussions. There are at least 8 or 9 different versions of evolution out there. One person presents evidence for their differing view and some don't like it and some do, does it mean that person is wrong, nope, it just means their evidence was not suitable for the person who viewed it.

So what to you constitutes good evidence. As said before, if I said well, their are numerous witnesses of events and things that God did, and they wrote their accounts on scroll and passed them down from generation to generation, you would say this is not acceptable, even though we still have several of the original scrolls.

If I point out the writings of first century historians like Josephus and mentioned the claims he made in regards to the followers of Christ and the things that people said on the street about Jesus and that he was seen after his death, you would simply dismiss that.

I could say the very laws as they are demonstrated in our universe are examples of a transcendent God. but you would dismiss that. so what is suitable?



This argument reversed is a game on semantics because everything is based on faith. You demonstrate faith every day in your life. But it is not BLIND faith if I can tell you that I have much reason to believe my sources and my investigation into this to be validated by every form of study I have ever taken. And I am a firm believer that when discussing something of this importance that if I cannot see God in EVERYTHING then he is not the God that I believe him to be, but I can see him in everything and I can understand (within reason and my human rational) his purpose or place with regards to everything I have ever researched.

another breif example is people who say they think evolution is real. There are some who couldn't even tell you what evolution is, and then there are some who have spent countless hours researching it to come to their conclusions and their beliefs. This is the same on just about any institution I can think of where subjective thought comes into play.


Sounds like you're promoting Ch-Ch-Ch-Chia Jesus. Later, QD.
funny one.

[sport_122]

This is not fair. FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for - the "evidence" of things NOT seen. So in your example FAITH would be me thinking that my 12.50 Honda will outrun a 11.50 Viper just b/c I pray really hard. The "laws" of horesepower production w/ respect to traction doesn't require FAITH. If I injest more air and fuel at the proper time w/ the spark at the right time i WILL make more horsepower. That does not require FAITH at at all, it just requires precison of all of the elements. These "elements" do not exist w/ a walk w/ God. You can see this in your explanations b/c you always factor in a "copout" w/ phrases like "Tangibility is not always an option in making a case for something" You set it up perfectly to where you get to a point that you are not held to the standard to PRODUCE - and that's a shame - really, it is.





You are in a place where you are trying to ignore mortality - that is a MUCH slicker slope IMO.:cheers:

I thi

Your example is not the same as what i said. In your address you have the evidence to show that you will NOT win. the faith that you are discussing is called blind faith. I do not believe that belief in a transcendent God is built off of Blind faith.


All the reason for the Church to steal his DEAD body before others did to propagate this crap.

I commented on this in my last post.

Also, 2000 years have not separated the texts. as I have said before we have many of the originals still. maybe 50-300 years ish.

Also, the documents that are written in the bible are presented for a reason. they looked to include people who gave first hand accounts, and at the time of text selection one of the biggest discussion were the validity of the texts. By the time they selected texts they decided to include only those texts which were being used and verified by numerous churches of the time. so lets say you had a church in France, I had one in Germany, and maniacc had one in the U.K. When we came together we would find that as individual churches we had already accepted some of the same books. That is the simple version, but there is a lot more that goes on this topic as well. This stuff is not what people make of it on the surface. it wasn't flip a coin book selection and the only time something was omitted was when King James made his version and started the Anglican church (in this case it was control). Other than that we have always had access to original documents. And the books that are included are included to their fullness. But again, there is LOTS of history that goes with this. I don't think it was about, I think it was about unification.


For the churches benefit he HAD to rise --- whether he rose or whether the church wanted to make it look like he did. Just add water and you have your instant hero.

Remember that there was no Church at that moment. The church wasn't established until he rose. At that time Jesus had worked enough miracles for the few who believed in him to be satisfied. Its the resurrection that commissioned them to go out. Without the resurrection and the witnesses to Christ (he claimed openly and was seen openly) there would be no church. these people would have disappeared much like our modern day cult followers.

But do you think that these men would have died for something they new was fake? I mean, if you had hoaxed a "resurrection" would you have died for it, when they were given all sorts of opportunity to dismiss their claims? That tells me that something very real was going on for them and that very real thing was not sparked by Christs life or death, but it was sparked by his resurrection. Even at his death we see that Christ was alone. Peter had denied him and his followers were scattered.

[ahabion]

Your example is not the same as what i said. In your address you have the evidence to show that you will NOT win. the faith that you are discussing is called blind faith. I do not believe that belief in a transcendent God is built off of Blind faith.



I commented on this in my last post.

Also, 2000 years have not separated the texts. as I have said before we have many of the originals still. maybe 50-300 years ish.

Also, the documents that are written in the bible are presented for a reason. they looked to include people who gave first hand accounts, and at the time of text selection one of the biggest discussion were the validity of the texts. By the time they selected texts they decided to include only those texts which were being used and verified by numerous churches of the time. so lets say you had a church in France, I had one in Germany, and maniacc had one in the U.K. When we came together we would find that as individual churches we had already accepted some of the same books. That is the simple version, but there is a lot more that goes on this topic as well. This stuff is not what people make of it on the surface. it wasn't flip a coin book selection and the only time something was omitted was when King James made his version and started the Anglican church (in this case it was control). Other than that we have always had access to original documents. And the books that are included are included to their fullness. But again, there is LOTS of history that goes with this. I don't think it was about, I think it was about unification.



Remember that there was no Church at that moment. The church wasn't established until he rose. At that time Jesus had worked enough miracles for the few who believed in him to be satisfied. Its the resurrection that commissioned them to go out. Without the resurrection and the witnesses to Christ (he claimed openly and was seen openly) there would be no church. these people would have disappeared much like our modern day cult followers.

But do you think that these men would have died for something they new was fake? I mean, if you had hoaxed a "resurrection" would you have died for it, when they were given all sorts of opportunity to dismiss their claims? That tells me that something very real was going on for them and that very real thing was not sparked by Christs life or death, but it was sparked by his resurrection. Even at his death we see that Christ was alone. Peter had denied him and his followers were scattered.

Sorry Sport, you speak as if anyone here has any indication of what you're really talking about biblically.

They demand proof of existence but dismiss things that are written by men. They demand proof of birth, death, and resurrection but dismiss written testimonies of witnesses and deny the accounts of Acts of the latter visitations of Jesus to Peter and the early church.

The proof that they seek is that in which cannot be proven by anything tangible in their eyes (besides the Bible... but that's been dismissed). The only other proof is that of their own personal faith... but of course, that can't be proven from one person to another... afterall... its "personal" + "faith"

My assumption of most people here is that they've not done a true in-depth study of the Bible and it's information but rather a general or broad overview of the origins of Christianity and perhaps other religions. So to actually use the Bible as a reference is null and void to many here, being that its just a "story book full of contradictions" to them. (not calling anyone dumb or unintelligent by any means, quite the contrary) but the things we accept as truths are relevant from one person to another. (ie: what's true for me may not be true for you... so on and so forth)

[d993s]

My personal beliefs based on evidence. If you believe in anything related to science it is based off of evidence. You believe your car will start in the morning, thats why you will not call a friend and ask for a ride to work. And yes, I elaborated, but as you can see in my last post, proof doesn't exist for those who are looking to dismiss it, it can't. Even before you ask for proof, your intent is to dismiss whatever comes out, to find a way to make the argument NOT work for your POV. So why do you ask for proof? Do you believe proof exists? If you don't why ask for it or harp on it when it is presented. I gave reason for my beliefs. Thats all I need to do. You have no real response to the reasons. All that you have is YOUR personal bias to argue because you have not studied or read of looked at the authors that I have read. I have read books by atheists, non-theists, and theists alike, and I do not agree with All of any of them, yet I have enough information to make a reasonable statement of my faith. You have nothing, but attacks on my beliefs as if you know me and know what I have been through or my experience with and before I came to faith.

The reason you will NOT be satisfied with evidence or reason to believe right now is that in your heart you don't want it. You can argue against just about anything that you want (and almost everything).

Whoa there buddy, I just asked for evidence.....which you still haven't provided, since I don't believe there to be any.
No fiction please.
I mean focken aye, look at L.R. Hubbard, he wrote fiction....apparently he got the attention of many interested people.....who became followers.....who started scientology. Now how fucking stupid is that?????

[d993s]

The person of Christ would be evidence of God in that at his resurrection he demonstrated his ability to overcome that which the laws of our universe do not suggest that anyone or anything could overcome that was subject to such laws.

The very claims made by Christ that he was the Messiah, God in the flesh, and the connections with the prophecies that he would be the Lord of Lords. There are also claims of his origin existing during the process of creation, but that is going to be too much for this discussion.

Basically, in simple terms, Jesus said, He was God, and the people who didn't believe him or tried to stone him said prove it, and he said okay. I will die and i will be resurrected after three days. And he did.

Now the problem with the stolen body argument is that Christ was witnessed in the flesh by hundreds of people after he was buried and entombed. So to say the body was taken does not counter his physical living presence sitting next to you or speaking to crowds or knocking at your door.


Not exactly true. You cannot always touch and feel everything. There are fragments of things that are remaining and there are drawings of things that are remaining. In the case of drawings or paintings, you don't know if something never existed or not. Just because you find a picture or schematic of something doesn't mean it was built. In fact, to prove that archaeology is not exact, just look at the number of archaeologists who will say that human civilizations cannot be traced back more than 7 or 8 thousand years, versus the ones who say, 10, and the onese who say 12 and so on. This shows that even in their fields there is a place of where evidence is not always accepted and does not necessarily lead to conforming views. This is also big with the evolution discussions. There are at least 8 or 9 different versions of evolution out there. One person presents evidence for their differing view and some don't like it and some do, does it mean that person is wrong, nope, it just means their evidence was not suitable for the person who viewed it.

So what to you constitutes good evidence. As said before, if I said well, their are numerous witnesses of events and things that God did, and they wrote their accounts on scroll and passed them down from generation to generation, you would say this is not acceptable, even though we still have several of the original scrolls.

If I point out the writings of first century historians like Josephus and mentioned the claims he made in regards to the followers of Christ and the things that people said on the street about Jesus and that he was seen after his death, you would simply dismiss that.

I could say the very laws as they are demonstrated in our universe are examples of a transcendent God. but you would dismiss that. so what is suitable?


This argument reversed is a game on semantics because everything is based on faith. You demonstrate faith every day in your life. But it is not BLIND faith if I can tell you that I have much reason to believe my sources and my investigation into this to be validated by every form of study I have ever taken. And I am a firm believer that when discussing something of this importance that if I cannot see God in EVERYTHING then he is not the God that I believe him to be, but I can see him in everything and I can understand (within reason and my human rational) his purpose or place with regards to everything I have ever researched.

another breif example is people who say they think evolution is real. There are some who couldn't even tell you what evolution is, and then there are some who have spent countless hours researching it to come to their conclusions and their beliefs. This is the same on just about any institution I can think of where subjective thought comes into play.


funny one.

BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Come on now, admit it. Gotta have faith.....and you will believe...associate everything positive as a blessing from god, and everything negative as a curse or result of not worshipping god.

This guy has a pretty strong faith: http://news.aol.com/article/father-prayed-instead-of-getting-help/496034?icid=main%7Caimzones%7Cdl1%7Clink2%7Chttp%3 A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Ffather-prayed-instead-of-getting-help%2F496034

[d993s]

One of the funniest things is how some people (quite a few actually), come up with bullshit excuses on behalf of god, allah, whatever fictional book of bullshit it may be; bible, torah, koran, wicca, dianetics, pinocchio, etc.

Never a straight honest answer backed up with evidence, only a belief.

Believe their own lies and others' which have been passed on for hundreds of years.

Modify their beliefs and adjust accordingly so that it fits their current lifestyle and comfort zone.

Are guilty of all their "sins" which they themselves invented but passed off as "laws from god"

Now that is real unbiased truth about believers in imaginary beings.....whether they are..... christians, muslims, jews, satan worshippers, whatever, they all have these things in common!

[sport_122]

Sorry Sport, you speak as if anyone here has any indication of what you're really talking about biblically.

They demand proof of existence but dismiss things that are written by men. They demand proof of birth, death, and resurrection but dismiss written testimonies of witnesses and deny the accounts of Acts of the latter visitations of Jesus to Peter and the early church.

The proof that they seek is that in which cannot be proven by anything tangible in their eyes (besides the Bible... but that's been dismissed). The only other proof is that of their own personal faith... but of course, that can't be proven from one person to another... afterall... its "personal" + "faith"

My assumption of most people here is that they've not done a true in-depth study of the Bible and it's information but rather a general or broad overview of the origins of Christianity and perhaps other religions. So to actually use the Bible as a reference is null and void to many here, being that its just a "story book full of contradictions" to them. (not calling anyone dumb or unintelligent by any means, quite the contrary) but the things we accept as truths are relevant from one person to another. (ie: what's true for me may not be true for you... so on and so forth)

you actually stated the same thing very well. I just go into different details. Thanks

[d993s]

Sorry Sport, you speak as if anyone here has any indication of what you're really talking about biblically.

They demand proof of existence but dismiss things that are written by men. They demand proof of birth, death, and resurrection but dismiss written testimonies of witnesses and deny the accounts of Acts of the latter visitations of Jesus to Peter and the early church.

The proof that they seek is that in which cannot be proven by anything tangible in their eyes (besides the Bible... but that's been dismissed). The only other proof is that of their own personal faith... but of course, that can't be proven from one person to another... afterall... its "personal" + "faith"

My assumption of most people here is that they've not done a true in-depth study of the Bible and it's information but rather a general or broad overview of the origins of Christianity and perhaps other religions. So to actually use the Bible as a reference is null and void to many here, being that its just a "story book full of contradictions" to them. (not calling anyone dumb or unintelligent by any means, quite the contrary) but the things we accept as truths are relevant from one person to another. (ie: what's true for me may not be true for you... so on and so forth)

So again: IT'S ALL A BELIEF THAT CAN NOT BE PROVEN. VERY STUPID IMO.

[sport_122]

Whoa there buddy, I just asked for evidence.....which you still haven't provided, since I don't believe there to be any.
No fiction please.
I mean focken aye, look at L.R. Hubbard, he wrote fiction....apparently he got the attention of many interested people.....who became followers.....who started scientology. Now how fucking stupid is that?????

you need to re-read my posts. I have posted my evidence. Or how about you tell me what constitutes evidence for you?

I have given my reasons. You just haven't taken the time to read them obviously.


BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Come on now, admit it. Gotta have faith.....and you will believe...associate everything positive as a blessing from god, and everything negative as a curse or result of not worshipping god.

This guy has a pretty strong faith: http://news.aol.com/article/father-...g-help%2F496034 (http://news.aol.com/article/father-prayed-instead-of-getting-help/496034?icid=main%7Caimzones%7Cdl1%7Clink2%7Chttp%3 A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Ffather-prayed-instead-of-getting-help%2F496034)

I am not sure you are even reasonably enough to be trying to have this type of conversation. If you have never done any research or reading on this (youtube doesn't count) then please go try to get a grip on it before you post.

Your statements are a poor representation of what I believe. And its a very immature and undeveloped view of my faith in God. It just shows that you only THINK you know something about my beliefs and my experiences. But you are so far off that its rather sad.

tell me when I have said that it doesn't take faith. You assume that all faith/belief is the same. I am telling you that faith in God does not and should not be blind and for me it is not. If you want to know some of my reasons you need to read previous posts as I have stated them and I wont repeat because you are lazy. If you want to ask specifics about what I believe I will tell you what and why.

but simply put, without the existence of a transcendent mind there is nothing universal to creation. There is no law, there is no ground for morals, there is not a reason to believe in anything scientific, no reason to believe in logic, or rational, and there is no reason to question our universe because there would be no universal pattern to question. The very nature of our universal laws of physics tells us that they existed before the universe did. If something existed before existence then what would you call it? There had to be reasoning, law, and I believe it also included morality. I could elaborate much more on this, but you haven't taken the time to investigate anything I have said thus far so I am really considering it a waste of time. And as I said before, if you are only out to try to say that there is nothing to faith or that all faith is blind then you can go run with that thought because you've made your point, its wrong. Its understood, but its wrong.

Everyone has faith in something...period. Whether your faith (as demonstrated by your asking for proof) is in what you use your immediate senses to gain understanding of, or whether its through scholarly research or just plain ignorance, everyone demonstrates faith in their lives. Hell, even Richard Dawkins one of the most well known atheists in the world and a evolutionary biologists says that somehow mankind is wired to believe. he doesn't understand it, but there is no denying it. Yet you try to make it seem as though the faith demonstrated by people who believe in a transcendent God is not as valid as any other faith, but your reasoning is only based on the senses. You dont seem to grasp the fact that NOT ALL THINGS ARE DEMONSTRATED BY PLACING THEM IN YOUR HAND.

[d993s]

.....

[sport_122]

One of the funniest things is how some people (quite a few actually), come up with bullshit excuses on behalf of god, allah, whatever fictional book of bullshit it may be; bible, torah, koran, wicca, dianetics, pinocchio, etc.

Never a straight honest answer backed up with evidence, only a belief.

Believe their own lies and others' which have been passed on for hundreds of years.

Modify their beliefs and adjust accordingly so that it fits their current lifestyle and comfort zone.

Are guilty of all their "sins" which they themselves invented but passed off as "laws from god"

Now that is real unbiased truth about believers in imaginary beings.....whether they are..... christians, muslims, jews, satan worshippers, whatever, they all have these things in common!

Why don't you man up and tell us something you believe in?

Science, tell me one scientific theory you believe in and I will tell you why your belief is unsubstantiated.

My point is that your concept of proof is illogical. You don't understand how philosophical and theoretical proof work. I mentioned some of the rules in a previous post which you have not read or did not understand.
But simply put, nothing that comes from "X-object or idea" can be used to define "x" as real. When people belive that ALL things come from God, then what is suitable to make proof.

A person can only present evidence for their faith. Just like in science. You can only present evidence for your conclusions. That does not mean that your conclusions are proven or accepted.

If you can't get that, then I think you need to go find a collegiate professor because that is a very juvenile concept on discussion.

And like I said, why don't you tell me any one thing that I cannot argue its very existence by dismissal of evidence? I mean what is real to you? I don't think you understand the place that you put your very own arguments when you run the dismissal of evidence racket.

[d993s]

you need to re-read my posts. I have posted my evidence. Or how about you tell me what constitutes evidence for you?

I have given my reasons. You just haven't taken the time to read them obviously.



I am not sure you are even reasonably enough to be trying to have this type of conversation. If you have never done any research or reading on this (youtube doesn't count) then please go try to get a grip on it before you post.

Your statements are a poor representation of what I believe. And its a very immature and undeveloped view of my faith in God. It just shows that you only THINK you know something about my beliefs and my experiences. But you are so far off that its rather sad.

tell me when I have said that it doesn't take faith. You assume that all faith/belief is the same. I am telling you that faith in God does not and should not be blind and for me it is not. If you want to know some of my reasons you need to read previous posts as I have stated them and I wont repeat because you are lazy. If you want to ask specifics about what I believe I will tell you what and why.

but simply put, without the existence of a transcendent mind there is nothing universal to creation. There is no law, there is no ground for morals, there is not a reason to believe in anything scientific, no reason to believe in logic, or rational, and there is no reason to question our universe because there would be no universal pattern to question. The very nature of our universal laws of physics tells us that they existed before the universe did. If something existed before existence then what would you call it? There had to be reasoning, law, and I believe it also included morality. I could elaborate much more on this, but you haven't taken the time to investigate anything I have said thus far so I am really considering it a waste of time. And as I said before, if you are only out to try to say that there is nothing to faith or that all faith is blind then you can go run with that thought because you've made your point, its wrong. Its understood, but its wrong.

Everyone has faith in something...period. Whether your faith (as demonstrated by your asking for proof) is in what you use your immediate senses to gain understanding of, or whether its through scholarly research or just plain ignorance, everyone demonstrates faith in their lives. Hell, even Richard Dawkins one of the most well known atheists in the world and a evolutionary biologists says that somehow mankind is wired to believe. he doesn't understand it, but there is no denying it. Yet you try to make it seem as though the faith demonstrated by people who believe in a transcendent God is not as valid as any other faith, but your reasoning is only based on the senses. You dont seem to grasp the fact that NOT ALL THINGS ARE DEMONSTRATED BY PLACING THEM IN YOUR HAND.

Your posts are as long as they are meaningless.

In short, your faith in imaginary beings constitutes absolute ignorance.
Let me know where it gets you.

[d993s]

Why don't you man up and tell us something you believe in?

Science, tell me one scientific theory you believe in and I will tell you why your belief is unsubstantiated.

My point is that your concept of proof is illogical. You don't understand how philosophical and theoretical proof work. I mentioned some of the rules in a previous post which you have not read or did not understand.
But simply put, nothing that comes from "X-object or idea" can be used to define "x" as real. When people belive that ALL things come from God, then what is suitable to make proof.

A person can only present evidence for their faith. Just like in science. You can only present evidence for your conclusions. That does not mean that your conclusions are proven or accepted.

If you can't get that, then I think you need to go find a collegiate professor because that is a very juvenile concept on discussion.

And like I said, why don't you tell me any one thing that I cannot argue its very existence by dismissal of evidence? I mean what is real to you? I don't think you understand the place that you put your very own arguments when you run the dismissal of evidence racket.

I believe in everything that had been proven to exist. Evidence.
Your beliefs are not evidence, its as simple as that.

[sport_122]

Your posts are as long as they are meaningless.

In short, your faith in imaginary beings constitutes absolute ignorance.
Let me know where it gets you.

like I said man up!

Answer the questions or NOBODY should respect a single thing that comes off of your keyboard on this topic again, because YOU have NO FOUNDATION FOR YOUR NON BELIEF. You post a bunch of childish nonsense but you can't step up to the plate and show that your own way of thinking works with your anit-God worldview.

Typically I can respect people who are different in opinion, but you just seem to be in the wrong place trying to discuss something that you know absolutely nothing about. Stop making yourself seem ignorant by posting childish pictures, and making 5 year old comments, put up something that makes sense or leave. You have not presented a single logical rebuttal to anything. I don't even have to agree with you, I just want to know that you can actually think...but I guess I will give up on that. I guess I just lost faith in you as a person worth discussing anything with.:(

Good luck, because you won't be able to dodge this topic forever. Sorry, thats just a fact, it will come up again in your life and i hope you can formulate mature sentences based on whatever it is you have faith in as truth.

[sport_122]

I believe in everything that had been proven to exist. Evidence.
Your beliefs are not evidence, its as simple as that.
What? All evidence is based off of belief.
what has been proven to exist? Name something...don't be scared. Historical data is not evidence...? Philosophical principles are not evidence? Laws of physics, not evidence? What is then.

I mean based on your reasoning the only thing YOU can believe in is what is in your hand or right in front of you. You don't believe in any history, you don't believe in any writings, you don't believe in other peoples testimony, so you only believe in what is right in your hand? And even then, how can you prove to me that what is in your hand is in your hand?

My point is if you are going to ask for evidence the only thing you can reasonably do, is decide whether or not someone has come to there conclusion based on a compilation of evidence. There is no proving anything to anyone who really does not want something proven to them. What you don't know is that I was a nonbeliever first. It took a very long time for me to really start to understand things the way I do now. I didn't set out to disprove, I set out to validate. i wanted to find validity in the things that people of different faiths believe. I found validity in the person of Christ, the Bible (because of the historical links to secular writings) and in the sciences. If I wanted to make arguments for non belief I could only do so by ignoring evidence that I have come across which I believe is valid. But believe me. there had to be a very strong case for Christ for me.

[yojimbo]

faith is belief that is not based on proof. faith is belief despite proof
some may say that science requires faith as well -- thing is that it does not. i'm not sure if i'd consider an attempt to reveal an answer as a leap of faith.


in the simplest kind of an experiment, you expect it to succeed or fail, but either result is an answer. even an unexpected result is still an answer.

the thing is that nobody on this planet is qualified to answer these questions about god, unless they're one of either of these:
1) a high-ranking member of the secret government who knows the whole story, or
2) a regular person channeling a highly-evolved extraterrestrial intelligence.

the most logical way of thinking though is not believing in a person that you've never seen. for those that claim to have experienced his touch,
are only experiencing chemical reactions in their brain
just like love, hate, greed... ect. those are things we cant see but know they are emotions created by your brain


also... this is an interesting vid:

flaws in the bible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JexWyh0K5ws)

[BABY J]

But do you think that these men would have died for something they new was fake? I mean, if you had hoaxed a "resurrection" would you have died for it, when they were given all sorts of opportunity to dismiss their claims? That tells me that something very real was going on for them and that very real thing was not sparked by Christs life or death, but it was sparked by his resurrection. Even at his death we see that Christ was alone. Peter had denied him and his followers were scattered.

Nope.

But men DEFINITELY die for something that they THINK is real. Do I have to mention the MANY events (Waco, Jones?) where this is so? I know that you don't need the examples.

[geoff]

sport you just have to see the big picture. some people are given the truth and deny it. the bible speaks of the end times when men will be decieved...sounds pretty accurate to me. like the bible says if they will not hear then exit the city and wipe the dust from your feet. remember, many are called but few are chosen

[d993s]

like I said man up!

Answer the questions or NOBODY should respect a single thing that comes off of your keyboard on this topic again, because YOU have NO FOUNDATION FOR YOUR NON BELIEF. You post a bunch of childish nonsense but you can't step up to the plate and show that your own way of thinking works with your anit-God worldview.

Typically I can respect people who are different in opinion, but you just seem to be in the wrong place trying to discuss something that you know absolutely nothing about. Stop making yourself seem ignorant by posting childish pictures, and making 5 year old comments, put up something that makes sense or leave. You have not presented a single logical rebuttal to anything. I don't even have to agree with you, I just want to know that you can actually think...but I guess I will give up on that. I guess I just lost faith in you as a person worth discussing anything with.:(

Good luck, because you won't be able to dodge this topic forever. Sorry, thats just a fact, it will come up again in your life and i hope you can formulate mature sentences based on whatever it is you have faith in as truth.
LMFAO!!! MAN UP!!!!???? (sorry, was tired and fell asleep early this morning)
Anyway, your evidence......I see it now....it's all in your head, so I guess that's enough!
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

[d993s]

sport you just have to see the big picture. some people are given the truth and deny it. the bible speaks of the end times when men will be decieved...sounds pretty accurate to me. like the bible says if they will not hear then exit the city and wipe the dust from your feet. remember, many are called but few are chosen

The bible is as vague as any horoscope, however, if there are enough psychopath diehard believers.....they can actually take all that fictional nonsense and turn it into reality thru their actions.
Actions do have consequences, and depending on what level and how many people get involved, yes, humanity CAN wipe itself out if it wanted to. Yes, it's a very stupid idea; that's why people should wake up and grow up and out of their religion and all its bullshit teachings which are nonsense and should be done away with.

[BABY J]

sport you just have to see the big picture. some people are given the truth and deny it. the bible speaks of the end times when men will be decieved...sounds pretty accurate to me. like the bible says if they will not hear then exit the city and wipe the dust from your feet. remember, many are called but few are chosen

Please stop using a document to prove itself. The only place the bible makes sense is in the bible... do you not think that there is something wrong w/ that?

[d993s]

I guess mankind is more intelligent than god.....god thinks the earth is flat and has 4 corners LMFAO!
Come on people, if you're going to invent an imaginary being, at least make sure their credibility isn't questioned.
Wait, maybe we haven't received the latest REVISED version of the bible..haha

[d993s]

Please stop using a document to prove itself. The only place the bible makes sense is in the bible... do you not think that there is something wrong w/ that?

:goodjob: Very well put.

Yes, there is something terribly wrong with that- when millions of people use it as a tool for destruction of other people (non-believers) and human advancement while trying to justify it as THE WAY. FUCK THAT!!!!

[sport_122]

faith is belief that is not based on proof. faith is belief despite proof
some may say that science requires faith as well -- thing is that it does not. i'm not sure if i'd consider an attempt to reveal an answer as a leap of faith.

also... this is an interesting vid:

flaws in the bible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JexWyh0K5ws)

Yojimbo, good chime in.
Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe in the stars and moon, and planets? Why? Have you ever touched them? I am assuming the answer is no. So if you have never placed your hand on them then you are in the same place as a believer. You have to believe based on the evidence presented by the accounts and the work of others. This is how we live. This is how you pic a car, a house, a college, a job, a bar, a route to get to your next destination etc etc.

In science, there is faith that our universal laws are active and have not or will not change. Science is a compilation of research. Which is why it has a margin of error. Because it is not 100% on anything. When you start an experiment its not the attempt its the belief that the experiment will yield results.

Faith is not bad. Blind faith is not scientific. but faith is ALL over science. And just be sure to understand that I am using faith as simply the belief in something that is not right in front of you.

Richard Dawkins even says that his faith is in science and that he approaches scientific study with faith because he believes that science can eventually yield answers to all of our questions concerning our universe. I don't agree with his statement, but even scientists will tell you that part of their work is based on faith. Faith in the results and study coming from earlier scientists who paved the way to current scientific horizons.


in the simplest kind of an experiment, you expect it to succeed or fail, but either result is an answer. even an unexpected result is still an answer.



In this statement you sort of contradict yourself. Faith is a part of expectation.

One reason is that scientific experiments do not always yield a pass fail result. You miss the place where scientific experiments are not about pass fail, but they are about answering a question posed by a hypothesis and then Identifying the variable that causes that result.


the thing is that nobody on this planet is qualified to answer these questions about god, unless they're one of either of these:
1) a high-ranking member of the secret government who knows the whole story, or
2) a regular person channeling a highly-evolved extraterrestrial intelligence.

If either of these two write down their info, is it still valid in 2000 years as history?
1. if this was the case, how are they validated to know the whole story. Where would their information come from? God? E.T.s? any other source is not valid because they are then in the same position as anyone who seeks to learn from provisional resources. The people of the Bible claimed their information about God came from Him. Are they validated now?
2. is exactly what the people who are in the Bible and some who are not have claimed to be doing. Why is Moses not suitable enough? His life is validated outside of writings in the Bible. But we dismiss ALL of this as evidence because some make false claims? That to me is illogical.


the most logical way of thinking though is not believing in a person that you've never seen. for those that claim to have experienced his touch, are only experiencing chemical reactions in their brain
just like love, hate, greed... ect. those are things we cant see but know they are emotions created by your brain

This a very bad statement for me. How are you qualified to assume that peoples claims are reduced to their (misguided) chemical reactions? Have you spoken to them, read their accounts, spoken to their doctors, their family, or have you experienced what they have? Especially when even before organized religion, people have been claiming these same experiences. an estimated 17 thousand+/- years of civilizations and we have ALWAYS had more people believing in things than not, yet we dismiss the belief phenomenon away even though over our history I would argue that over 99% or more of human population historically has believed in something. How is this illogical. This alone is reason enough to say that there is something more to humanity because we don't see this in any other life form on our planet.

Why do you believe Lincoln, MLK, Jesus, or anyone in history whom you have read about really existed? Even if you don't the origins of any of your evidence is going to be coming from resources that do validate history as a suitable tool. and historical claims are worthy of respect and understanding. And this goes back to an earlier point, the only way to dismiss God is to ignore certain things that we have at our disposal. How is it logical to ignore witness testimony that is validated by thousands upon thousands of eye witnesses of specific events. aren't your two valid resource listed above witnesses?

Also, the argument of emotions simply being chemical rxns is also a very illogical to me. Everything that you compute in your brain is a chemical reaction, so now do we have no grounds for anything to be real? Touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing, and your emotions are all based off of the human brain reducing them down so that you can compute them with reason and logic. I believe this is something God gave us that allows us to see him. It would be illogical to have a God create us and not give us the ability to use reason. Then i do not understand how we would be able to know him at all. and we cannot assume that our universe is the origin of reason, as our universe demonstrated that it is subjected to law even before it was created. Universal laws of physics, gravity, etc had to have logically been aroung before the universe or the Big bang would not have produced expansion.

lastly I have heard the chemical reaction statement said about morality too. If these things are chemical reactions then how are they validated. How do you validate the thing in you that says its wrong to kill, if someone else says, well the chemicals in my brain say its okay? Is that sufficient for you?

*lots of hte questions I asked are just for you. My world view answers these questions. I have tried, but I can't answer them logically without God in the equation.

[d993s]

Yojimbo, good chime in.
Do you believe in evolution? Do you believe in the stars and moon, and planets? Why? Have you ever touched them? I am assuming the answer is no. So if you have never placed your hand on them then you are in the same place as a believer. You have to believe based on the evidence presented by the accounts and the work of others. This is how we live. This is how you pic a car, a house, a college, a job, a bar, a route to get to your next destination etc etc.

In science, there is faith that our universal laws are active and have not or will not change. Science is a compilation of research. Which is why it has a margin of error. Because it is not 100% on anything. When you start an experiment its not the attempt its the belief that the experiment will yield results.

Faith is not bad. Blind faith is not scientific. but faith is ALL over science. And just be sure to understand that I am using faith as simply the belief in something that is not right in front of you.

Richard Dawkins even says that his faith is in science and that he approaches scientific study with faith because he believes that science can eventually yield answers to all of our questions concerning our universe. I don't agree with his statement, but even scientists will tell you that part of their work is based on faith. Faith in the results and study coming from earlier scientists who paved the way to current scientific horizons.



In this statement you sort of contradict yourself. Faith is a part of expectation.

One reason is that scientific experiments do not always yield a pass fail result. You miss the place where scientific experiments are not about pass fail, but they are about answering a question posed by a hypothesis and then Identifying the variable that causes that result.



If either of these two write down their info, is it still valid in 2000 years as history?
1. if this was the case, how are they validated to know the whole story. Where would their information come from? God? E.T.s? any other source is not valid because they are then in the same position as anyone who seeks to learn from provisional resources. The people of the Bible claimed their information about God came from Him. Are they validated now?
2. is exactly what the people who are in the Bible and some who are not have claimed to be doing. Why is Moses not suitable enough? His life is validated outside of writings in the Bible. But we dismiss ALL of this as evidence because some make false claims? That to me is illogical.



This a very bad statement for me. How are you qualified to assume that peoples claims are reduced to their (misguided) chemical reactions? Have you spoken to them, read their accounts, spoken to their doctors, their family, or have you experienced what they have? Especially when even before organized religion, people have been claiming these same experiences. an estimated 17 thousand+/- years of civilizations and we have ALWAYS had more people believing in things than not, yet we dismiss the belief phenomenon away even though over our history I would argue that over 99% or more of human population historically has believed in something. How is this illogical. This alone is reason enough to say that there is something more to humanity because we don't see this in any other life form on our planet.

Why do you believe Lincoln, MLK, Jesus, or anyone in history whom you have read about really existed? Even if you don't the origins of any of your evidence is going to be coming from resources that do validate history as a suitable tool. and historical claims are worthy of respect and understanding. And this goes back to an earlier point, the only way to dismiss God is to ignore certain things that we have at our disposal. How is it logical to ignore witness testimony that is validated by thousands upon thousands of eye witnesses of specific events. aren't your two valid resource listed above witnesses?

Also, the argument of emotions simply being chemical rxns is also a very illogical to me. Everything that you compute in your brain is a chemical reaction, so now do we have no grounds for anything to be real? Touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing, and your emotions are all based off of the human brain reducing them down so that you can compute them with reason and logic. I believe this is something God gave us that allows us to see him. It would be illogical to have a God create us and not give us the ability to use reason. Then i do not understand how we would be able to know him at all. and we cannot assume that our universe is the origin of reason, as our universe demonstrated that it is subjected to law even before it was created. Universal laws of physics, gravity, etc had to have logically been aroung before the universe or the Big bang would not have produced expansion.

lastly I have heard the chemical reaction statement said about morality too. If these things are chemical reactions then how are they validated. How do you validate the thing in you that says its wrong to kill, if someone else says, well the chemicals in my brain say its okay? Is that sufficient for you?

*lots of hte questions I asked are just for you. My world view answers these questions. I have tried, but I can't answer them logically without God in the equation.

There are only so many ways to try and make a valid point. And although they might be interesting, they become irrelevant and off-topic due to your focus on everything being based on fictional characters in the storybook called the bible.
I have to give it to you, you are quite the strawman.

[sport_122]

LMFAO!!! MAN UP!!!!???? (sorry, was tired and fell asleep early this morning)
Anyway, your evidence......I see it now....it's all in your head, so I guess that's enough!
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

Okay...

BTW this is probably your funniest post yet.



Please stop using a document to prove itself. The only place the bible makes sense is in the bible... do you not think that there is something wrong w/ that?

Geoff, in arguments of debate and proof, he is 100% right. ***edit*** about using the document to prove itself.

But, I can't agree on the only place it makes sense is within itself.
Baby J
His statements are even true philosophically and psychologically and socially and they make perfect sense. The Bible and these social sciences are only validating one another. As I believe they have to.

psychologically a person who chooses to reject belief in anything can make reasons up or ignore evidence to believe. and on this topic, seeing as how I believe that ALL things come from God, as he created the universe, and directed all laws to govern it, nothing is suitable enough to prove his existence because my world view is that ALL things presuppose his existence because they have to. Basically what you said married with, I believe in a God who created ALL things. And you and I know there is a difference between proof and evidence.

for those who don't understand this. Our courts system works on an abundance of evidence to prove something. So evidence is intent or motivation for the crime, fingerprints, witness testimony, etc etc, and a compilation of evidence can be interpreted as proof. we have all seen the evidence, philosophically it can't be called proof, until the individual decides that the case is made.

[sport_122]

There are only so many ways to try and make a valid point. And although they might be interesting, they become irrelevant and off-topic due to your focus on everything being based on fictional characters in the storybook called the bible.
I have to give it to you, you are quite the strawman.

Did you ride the short bus? :???:

BTW...i really didn't want to do this but i am blocking you now. You just having nothing constructive to add to this conversation and frankly I am considering you a waste of screen and laptop battery power.

good luck on life.

[d993s]

Did you ride the short bus? :???:

BTW...i really didn't want to do this but i am blocking you now. You just having nothing constructive to add to this conversation and frankly I am considering you a waste of screen and laptop battery power.

good luck on life.

You're hilarious.
Since I don't agree with and don't construct on your bullshit and unprovable faith-based beliefs.......
There is no need for debate here, although your arguments hold nothing but hot air, all based on your belief and faith.
In short, you have no argument.
The only thing evident from all your posts is your ignorance.

[d993s]

This one's for you sport122

[sport_122]

Nope.

But men DEFINITELY die for something that they THINK is real. Do I have to mention the MANY events (Waco, Jones?) where this is so? I know that you don't need the examples.

Thanks for writing this Baby J. This is exactly my point. The men that lived with Christ and followed him and the people that followed them during his life and after his resurrection were hunted down and many were killed for NOT renouncing their faith in him. They heard his claims and they heard him say what he would do. It was after he did it that they were ready to die. Because when Christ died these followers where nowhere to be found.

so the idea of a hoaxed resurrection is crazy to me. they were willing to die because they fully believed that Christ had risen because they saw him and spent time with him after he rose. their faith was more substantiated than anyone elses in that they witnessed it all.

Even in Peter, as he denied Christ while Christ was being beaten and hung up and at the point of the resurrection Peter did not doubt again, to the very point of being crucified himself. The rest of the disciples scattered when Christ was captured out of fear, until the moment of his resurrection, then they were made bold in their faith to the point of where they would reunite and put their lives on the line.

I say this to say that these men were NOT crazy, they experienced something that told them that ALL that they had seen and ALL that they had heard was validated, NOT in Christs life or death. Even though he performed many miracles, that was not what did it, (because even Judas saw the miracles) It was the resurrection. It was that nobody needed to come and resurrect Christ. He rose on his own just as he said he would. At the moment of experiencing Christ again, ALL of their doubts were removed and their faith was made complete.

The same as with Paul. He knew of the miracles he heard of Christ, but it was only after he experienced the living Christ on the road to Damascus that he immediately became just like the rest. and I mind you that before he was like them, he was trying to kill them.

They most certainly believed (thought) with good reason that Christ was the Messiah, and that He did indeed raise up from the grave. And this was not 100 years or 2000 years later. This is just about or a little over three days later. At the moment, not fizzled and distorted with time.

Nobody was converted after David Curesh, or the Jimmy Jones or Heavens Gate. Because there was NO validation of the claims that these men made. Their unfounded and destructive programs and systems died with them. The few of the followers that they remain have renounced them as heritics, as liars, and evil. This was NOT the case with the historical Christ.

[geoff]

i find it humurous that people claim that i cant use scripture as proof or that its not valid enough. the point is that you are trying to ask me to prove God and you say that He cant be real or He is imaginary by using scripture themselves and try to say that He cant be what the word says He is so He is not real. funny how the bible is used to try and disprove Him and say that it contradicts itself and some of you use that but i in turn am not allowed to use biblical arguements because they are not " valid " enough for proof but ok to use as disproving Him.:thinking:


i say this to one and all " non-believers " you can rant and rave how there is no god and you dont have enough evidence and that faith means nothing...but untill you yourself do an in depth search to see for yourself then you have no right to say we as believers are wrong. there are plenty of tools out there for you to use to study...bible, sociology, psychology, ect...until then you are all just going off of some other persons study and are following their claims and not your own. you have faith to believe Dawkins is right because he studies science yet you yourself say faith is not enough for me lol.:lmfao:

[trini_gsr]

a lot happened in this thread since I checked it last :D

in sport's defense i'll say this. pretty much all sciences, belief systems, etc usually start out with a given set of assumptions. Once these assumptions are accepted, then you can work out proving theories within that framework. for example, in euclidean geometry you start out with the assumptions (aka definitions) of the idea of a point, a line, and space. from these 3 simple assumptions, all of geometry is built. and obviously it is useful :) however if you don't accept those 3 assumptions as unprovable facts...it all comes crashing down.

Just like scientists believe in the Big Bang (not knowing where the original matter came from) and build forward from there, personally speaking, I assume that God is rational and is responsible for the creation of the universe. And I build my worldview from here using logic (because my original assumption implies that God gave us logic to determine the nature of our universe).

That's just me, and I *think* sport122 is the same. Now this approach allows my worldview to change and grow as I gain new info, which is the downfall of most "religions", and where science has them beat - they are too static. I see science and spirituality as two sides to the same coin. Something I always tell ppl is "where science ends, spirituality begins". It's ultimately describing the same continuum of reality. And as we learn more things about our universe, it obviously has to be able to grow and change with it.

Where that puts the Bible, Jesus, etc? Is a different story. I'll say for now that I don't accept the Bible as a 100% accurate history book. That isn't its purpose. As far as Jesus being an alien? As far as I'm concerned you could consider GOD to be an alien too so it isn't far-fetched. He (or I should say IT) definitely was extraterrestrial, which is the definition of an alien anyhow...

Nice thread though, it's already given me some things to ponder...

[sport_122]

i find it humurous that people claim that i cant use scripture as proof or that its not valid enough. the point is that you are trying to ask me to prove God and you say that He cant be real or He is imaginary by using scripture themselves and try to say that He cant be what the word says He is so He is not real. funny how the bible is used to try and disprove Him and say that it contradicts itself and some of you use that but i in turn am not allowed to use biblical arguments because they are not " valid " enough for proof but ok to use as disproving Him.:thinking:



What...you didnt know there was a double standard. It goes both ways though because there are believers who do this same thing.




That's just me, and I *think* sport122 is the same. Now this approach allows my worldview to change and grow as I gain new info, which is the downfall of most "religions", and where science has them beat - they are too static. I see science and spirituality as two sides to the same coin. Something I always tell ppl is "where science ends, spirituality begins". It's ultimately describing the same continuum of reality. And as we learn more things about our universe, it obviously has to be able to grow and change with it.


The rejection to change is also present in the sciences (social and natural). People don't realize how many versions of theories like evolution, and dark matter there are. This is because the rejection to change is not about the institution its about the individual. And because I do not believe science to be evil, I cannot assume its problems come from the core of the institution as much as it comes from people interpreting and altering its original intent, much like they do the institutions of government, politics (not the same as gov't), education, religion etc etc.

Ironically this same thing that I believe to be demonstrated in our world is also demonstrated about us in the Bible. The very fact that some would say the bible can't be trusted because its too old, is based off of the mindset that we know men often ruin things for whatever good they may have been. The reason we have become skeptical of ourselves is also evidence of that mindset.

[ahabion]

So again: IT'S ALL A BELIEF THAT CAN NOT BE PROVEN. VERY STUPID IMO.

:blah: :lmfao:

[trini_gsr]

The rejection to change is also present in the sciences (social and natural). People don't realize how many versions of theories like evolution, and dark matter there are. This is because the rejection to change is not about the institution its about the individual. And because I do not believe science to be evil, I cannot assume its problems come from the core of the institution as much as it comes from people interpreting and altering its original intent, much like they do the institutions of government, politics (not the same as gov't), education, religion etc etc.


the difference, however, is that the "core institution" for science has never claimed to be infallible. egos aside, it is ok for science to be wrong. religion on the other hand doesn't have this luxury, the way most of them are currently set up.

so i understand why there is a double standard. if you're claiming to be 100% right you better be...otherwise you lose credibility once proven wrong.

[ahabion]

the difference, however, is that the "core institution" for science has never claimed to be infallible. egos aside, it is ok for science to be wrong. religion on the other hand doesn't have this luxury, the way most of them are currently set up.

so i understand why there is a double standard. if you're claiming to be 100% right you better be...otherwise you lose credibility once proven wrong.

How much proof is enough to prove it wrong?

[trini_gsr]

How much proof is enough to prove it wrong?

being wrong about even the smallest thing is enough to bring the house of cards tumbling down, i'd say

[yojimbo]

romans 6:23 KJV "says for the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of god is eternal life through jesus christ our lord."

salvation is the gift of god?

a gift is something someone gives you without doing anything.. if someone gives you a gift,
they do all the work; all you have to do is accept it.


dont understand why someone has to give up their soul to receive enternal salvation.

[geoff]

a gift is something someone gives you without doing anything.. if someone gives you a gift,
they do all the work; all you have to do is accept it.


yojimbo your very right with this. salvation is a gift, a gift that God did not have to provide for us. He could have easily just let us keep doin it the same way in the old testament and none of us would make it. and the part where you said " if someone gives a gift they do all the work; all you have to do is ACCEPT" God came as Jesus. He lived a pure and perfect life, He taught us how to live and He then was tortured and took on all our sins and was then crucified to be the perfect and ultimate sacrifice. He did all the work. we just have to accept 1. that He is real and He is Lord.2. accept that God is real and He died for us. and then finnally 3. accept this gift and make Him Lord of our lives. so it is a gift that we dont deserve.

i would also like to put this out there. i see you all asking us with faith to prove ourselves but none of you have provided proof that He isnt real. i invite all challengers to give me your proof that God doesnt exist and i will debunk it. bring it on!:taun:

[Ocelot]

geoff, the proof that could be used to debunk God is the lack of proof that one exists. no concrete evidence, just stories.

never has there been anytime, thing or place that was "proven" to not exist.

[ahabion]

i would also like to put this out there. i see you all asking us with faith to prove ourselves but none of you have provided proof that He isnt real. i invite all challengers to give me your proof that God doesnt exist and i will debunk it. bring it on!:taun:

What proof do you have in YOUR life that God is real?

[geoff]

i keep hearing the same things over and over agian. where is my proof? i have provided my side of the arguement by giving scientific studies that were done, natural laws, cause and effect, and so on. i have person things that have happend to me that prove God...to me cuz i have faith. i am asking once agian. where is the non believers proof? i want to hear proof of why God cant exist. i want to see studies i wanna see evidence that there is NO way that God can exist not the usuall well you cant prove it so that means He doesnt exist. lets hear it guys. come on

[sport_122]

the difference, however, is that the "core institution" for science has never claimed to be infallible. egos aside, it is ok for science to be wrong. religion on the other hand doesn't have this luxury, the way most of them are currently set up.

so i understand why there is a double standard. if you're claiming to be 100% right you better be...otherwise you lose credibility once proven wrong.

That depends on what you think the core of the Christian faith is. I do not believe the Bible is the core of the Christian faith. I believe Christ is the core of the Christian faith and the Bible is only one of the many things that testify to who he was. People always talk about the word of God (the Bible), but they miss the fact that Jesus is the fulfillment of the word. He is the Logos (The Word that was, is and is to come), and he is what breathes the validity into the Bible. The Bible is NOT eternal, but the word (the Logos/Jesus) is. I cannot base my faith on what is not eternal because what is not eternally binding for us does not suit my requirements as things that are not eternal are ever changing. Because without Christ even the moral teachings of the Bible are worthless. (this is a much deeper discussion than I care to go into on this forum)

You can be a believer and have never touched the Bible. The Logos (Jesus) is only partially understood through scripture. I believe the rest of it to be understood through other resources. Which is why the resurrection of Christ is so important. Without that NONE of the Christian faith is valid.



i keep hearing the same things over and over agian. where is my proof? i have provided my side of the arguement by giving scientific studies that were done, natural laws, cause and effect, and so on. i have person things that have happend to me that prove God...to me cuz i have faith. i am asking once agian. where is the non believers proof? i want to hear proof of why God cant exist. i want to see studies i wanna see evidence that there is NO way that God can exist not the usuall well you cant prove it so that means He doesnt exist. lets hear it guys. come on

Geoff, I think he is asking for your reasoning. I don't think he is telling you to make a persuasive argument.


How much proof is enough to prove it wrong?


This is where i will sound crazy to some.
For me, it would take proving that the resurrection did not occur, or that our universe is not subservient to laws. This does not mean that the laws of our universe cannot be broken, but proving that they are routinely broken by an understood means. These are two philosophically impossible things to do though. Which is why I am a believer. Because I cannot find fault in these arguments and all knowledge we have ever gained fails at the point of proving any of this which makes the argument of proof invalid for me. This sounds stubborn, but it is my worldview, that without a transcendent God, our universe cannot function as it does, and without the resurrection, the faith and hope for redemption from that which makes me unable to live up to his standard is lost. I believe that somehow the cosmos is for us, and we cannot inherit it until we have demonstrated that we understand our place in it. Until we understand that this universe is not about war, gaining power, or influence, but its about enjoying what has been created and getting to know our God as he waits to further reveal himself to us, we will continue to suffer and hurt one another and anguish over things that we desire yet do not bring us joy.


geoff, the proof that could be used to debunk God is the lack of proof that one exists. no concrete evidence, just stories.

never has there been anytime, thing or place that was "proven" to not exist.

That is an subjective statement, it depends on who is presenting and who is accepting the evidence

Not true. The lack of proof of something is also NOT a valid argument for its non-existence. We did not know of radio waves, we did not know of photons, we did not know of black holes, we did not know of certain islands, etc etc. In these cases, there was no evidence to any of this, it was only until we gained the ability to understand them that they were made known (meaning understood and known to be). and even now, scientifically there are many things that we know of, but we have no idea what makes them work. I actually believe that everyone inside has something that tells them that we are products of something greater. I believe that everyone feels somehow that there is something more. If we didn't we would not question. we seek knowledge because we know there is knowledge to gain. I believe that just like some people are in denial about Global warming (whichever way you believe) or about E.T.'s (whichever way you believe) these topics compel us because we do not know our universe and we do not really understand ourselves.



dont understand why someone has to give up their soul to receive enternal salvation.


yojimbo, there is so much more to it. But simply put, I don't believe that I have given up my soul as much as I have gained the ability for it to be free knowing that I have a covenant with God. And the God I believe in has demonstrated his love to me that while I was evil on this earth and not living according to his law, and I deserved death, he stepped in and forgave me and paid the price for my disobedience. And not only that, but that demonstration was sealed with His own blood. It was free because I could not work for this gift as nothing that I do for his approval is adequate. And he has never not fulfilled a covenant. He said that he would provide us a way to him and Christ was that way. Christ demonstrated the truth of who he was by conquering the very method of my punishment as he rose from being dead for three days. So what has happened is I have not given up my soul, I have gained it as it will be with the one for whom there was no beginning and there will be no end.

[BABY J]

...This is where i will sound crazy to some.


No - you sounded crazy well before this post :cheers: (i like our interaction on this subj so I feel you got the stomach to take a few jabs in fun) :)


...
For me, it would take proving that the resurrection did not occur,

Your "proof" thus far is eyewitness testimony and the fact that men "of God" died rather than denounce him. These men are men who were already co-signers and "brainwashed" to think that they will burn in hell w/out Him. What do you think that means? That's no different than me saying "Islam is the best religion ever and all Americans suck and need to die and leave Iraq" on camera when just off camera there is a towel-head w/ a shotgun is aimed at my nut sack.


......or that our universe is not subservient to laws. This does not mean that the laws of our universe cannot be broken, but proving that they are routinely broken by an understood means...

So "God" has already proven this w/ the "miracles" that she performed. Or is God the only person that can outright ignore the laws of the universe since She is a big pimp?

[ahabion]

i keep hearing the same things over and over agian. where is my proof? i have provided my side of the arguement by giving scientific studies that were done, natural laws, cause and effect, and so on. i have person things that have happend to me that prove God...to me cuz i have faith. i am asking once agian. where is the non believers proof? i want to hear proof of why God cant exist. i want to see studies i wanna see evidence that there is NO way that God can exist not the usuall well you cant prove it so that means He doesnt exist. lets hear it guys. come on

As Sport said, not trying to be argumentative... just want you to provide your proof as to how God is real in Your life. (in Christian circles, its referred to: testimony :D brother)

[DynamicSound]

Jesus a alien?

I guess that it makes just as much sense as god being real.

[sport_122]

No - you sounded crazy well before this post :cheers: (i like our interaction on this subj so I feel you got the stomach to take a few jabs in fun) :)

Yeah man, I'm up for a few jabs from ya. I am keepin my eyes open for them :eek:


Your "proof" thus far is eyewitness testimony and the fact that men "of God" died rather than denounce him. These men are men who were already co-signers and "brainwashed" to think that they will burn in hell w/out Him. What do you think that means? That's no different than me saying "Islam is the best religion ever and all Americans suck and need to die and leave Iraq" on camera when just off camera there is a towel-head w/ a shotgun is aimed at my nut sack.

Actually its very different. Name a guy from Islam who said, I am going to die, but I will not stay dead. These men were not following a militant leader, they followed someone who made very radical claims, that would have gotten him killed in that region (even today you would be killed for making claims to be God), but unlike anyone else in history He delivered and that delivery made them sign up. If he had not had some serious legitimacy He would have disappeared into history as another guy who was killed.


So "God" has already proven this w/ the "miracles" that she performed. Or is God the only person that can outright ignore the laws of the universe since She is a big pimp?

Baby J, this is twice that I think you are understanding me more than anyone else. Even though I know you don't agree with me.

But you are hitting on my point exactly...again. Thats what was demonstrated in the miracles was that God alone had the power to ordain such things to happen. Remember at this time, (as far as anything I have read) nobody was performing these types of miracles and historically they are happening around people of God. So this was the first notice that I take. We could say that Christ was just doing what prophets before him were doing. But Christ separated himself when he said he would rise and then followed through on that claim.

What's important to me, is that those who have not truthfully investigated this with an open understanding realize that if this amazing miracle did happen, then there are some very significant things about us, that are linked to his resurrection. For the believer it means that he is our reason, he is our provided evidence of not only is God real, but he does care about us, he does want us to know him, he is just and he is justice, and he alone has the power to deliver us from the one thing that we all must face, death. For the non-believer, it means that we ought to go out of our way to try to understand the case for Christ, because nothing else we have tried has even come close to delivering understanding and peace to humanity.

This is so important, because if we realize that it doesn't end here, only then can we discard the humanistic approach to life, which IMO is the underlying poison of all things, and we can be embraced as ones who are ready to step further into this relationship with him and all that he has created and all that he has in store and wants to show us. But the humanistic approach is a false realism. It makes us think that we are in control, it makes us think that we know, it makes us think that we can be like God, and it is the embodiment of our pride. This approach is killing us, just read the news, or pick up a history book if you think I'm wrong. We are becoming more secular, smarter, and more technologically advanced as a world, and we are getting WORSE. Humanism tells us that these things will make us better and that is a lie just watch the news for 10 minutes. In fact humanism, has infiltrated all of our institutions by way of the corruptible human heart, and it has proven itself to be destructive in our history and the eminent (maybe inevitable) destruction of ourselves. But all of this is avoidable, by the existence of a very real God and the power he demonstrated in the resurrection of Christ.

[Maniacc]

Faith is for the weak and is a detriment to expansion of consciousness.

If one day it is proven that some giant bearded man who lives in the clouds that just self manifested himself and decided to create the Earth with a point of a finger, then fine.

I'm sure non-believers would be convinced.

But you see - thermodynamic, 'theories,' have already been proven true in smaller systems. Meanwhile, every religion has huge gaps of logic, plain falsehoods, plagerisms, and mass contradictions. It has nothing to do with faith, but using that sponge thing in your head to lean in 'belief' towards the most plausible 'theory.' Religion is for the cavemen era. It gave their nascent minds comfort to try and figure out the world around them. Unfortuantely their strive to understand became overtaken by their egos pretending to know and by others recognizing these fairy tales could be exploited to control large groups of people.

Life is like walking through a forest. Religious people follow one path convinced it's the right one -- then you have your non-believers that go where their mind leads them. Using logic and reason it usually results in 'getting out of the forest' and back into civilization/reality.

[trini_gsr]

That depends on what you think the core of the Christian faith is. I do not believe the Bible is the core of the Christian faith. I believe Christ is the core of the Christian faith and the Bible is only one of the many things that testify to who he was. People always talk about the word of God (the Bible), but they miss the fact that Jesus is the fulfillment of the word. He is the Logos (The Word that was, is and is to come), and he is what breathes the validity into the Bible. The Bible is NOT eternal, but the word (the Logos/Jesus) is. I cannot base my faith on what is not eternal because what is not eternally binding for us does not suit my requirements as things that are not eternal are ever changing. Because without Christ even the moral teachings of the Bible are worthless. (this is a much deeper discussion than I care to go into on this forum)

You can be a believer and have never touched the Bible. The Logos (Jesus) is only partially understood through scripture. I believe the rest of it to be understood through other resources. Which is why the resurrection of Christ is so important. Without that NONE of the Christian faith is valid.

great points. without going off on a serious tangent, i think the major difference between our worldviews is that GOD is at the center of mine, while Jesus is at the center of yours. I don't believe that GOD = Jesus.

Additionally...I am of the opinion that "eternal" doesn't have to necessarily imply unchanging. To relate it back to nature...a system can have a bunch of little changes but as long as the net effect is ZERO, equilibrium is maintained. to put it better, "eternal" isn't the same thing is "static". And I believe God to be a dynamic being bc the universe is constantly changing.



This is where i will sound crazy to some.
For me, it would take proving that the resurrection did not occur, or that our universe is not subservient to laws.

Speaking about the resurrection, what proof do you have (outside of what is mentioned in the Bible itself) that the resurrection DID occur? i'm asking bc i think this conversation is about to take some interesting turns :D. and i'd like to see where your head is on this before we proceed further.

[geoff]

there are many historical writings of Jesus. many from non believing jews that sought to kill Him and also roman and greek philosophers and historians. all of them well known. its the same as historical writings of shakespear or socratese or da vinci. we never met these men nor heard them speak but there is still un deniable historical evidence of their existence. same for Christ and the resurection

[trini_gsr]

there are many historical writings of Jesus. many from non believing jews that sought to kill Him and also roman and greek philosophers and historians. all of them well known. its the same as historical writings of shakespear or socratese or da vinci. we never met these men nor heard them speak but there is still un deniable historical evidence of their existence. same for Christ and the resurection

could you give me some specifics? i'm not talking about whether he existed. that fact is pretty verifiable. i'm speaking specifically about the resurrection. sport122 implied that there is historical proof of this and i'd like to know what documents outside of the Bible testify to Jesus' resurrection.

[geoff]

the writings of josephus the jew and tacitus the roman speak of Jesus and His miracles aswell as Him appearing after His death.

[geoff]

by the way trini gsr were you the one asking me for my testimony?

[sport_122]

could you give me some specifics? i'm not talking about whether he existed. that fact is pretty verifiable. i'm speaking specifically about the resurrection. sport122 implied that there is historical proof of this and i'd like to know what documents outside of the Bible testify to Jesus' resurrection.

I have others as well. I just need to know if you want modern philosophers/historians or if you want all 1-3rd century info. Geoff has mentioned two already... but if you like I can quote or point you to a number of authors or modern writers, but it is hard to have this discussion if you do not read their work and simply providing names and quotes rarely summarizes their positions.

Also, I want to make sure its clear that I said there is evidence for us to believe it. There is a difference between evidence and proof. the eyewitnesses experienced proof after the resurrection. We can only look at the presented evidence for this case...

Lastly, I want to point out that the first piece of evidence logically has to be the Bible, as it is our first known report of the event. We cannot examine the case of the resurrection without the resurrection story as presented in the NT, even if only for the account, we have to use the Bible. It would be logical fallacy to ignore it because without it we have no account and we have nothing to provide evidence for. And in that examination, we should also remember that the books, and the accounts and letters are just as much a piece of the puzzle as anything else. My point is that without the Bible there is no story of which evidence is needed. Much like you could not put someone on trial and refuse their testimony of the event or the testimony of the other eye witnesses with the assumption that they could not give an accurate account of the event.

Maybe we should start another thread if we are going to dig into all of this? Because there is a ton of history that needs to be laid out and this thread is going to go way off topic when we get started.

[geoff]

i think everyone just finally saw how ludicris it was to claim Jesus was an alien. i vote for a new thread. sport if you wanna lead this up and start out with what you have( historical accounts, scientific, sociological, ect) to finally once and for all put all our evidence out there. i think it would be interesting. i will be right behind you postin everything i have.

[geoff]

maniac, all paths lead to somewhere, i have used my logic and when i first got into christianity and started learning i was like everyone else...i tried to pick it apart. but along the "road of believers" God built up my faith and where my own limited reason and logic and all the contrary "evidence" out there God stepped in and filled in the blanks

[trini_gsr]

I have others as well. I just need to know if you want modern philosophers/historians or if you want all 1-3rd century info. Geoff has mentioned two already... but if you like I can quote or point you to a number of authors or modern writers, but it is hard to have this discussion if you do not read their work and simply providing names and quotes rarely summarizes their positions.

Also, I want to make sure its clear that I said there is evidence for us to believe it. There is a difference between evidence and proof. the eyewitnesses experienced proof after the resurrection. We can only look at the presented evidence for this case...

Lastly, I want to point out that the first piece of evidence logically has to be the Bible, as it is our first known report of the event. We cannot examine the case of the resurrection without the resurrection story as presented in the NT, even if only for the account, we have to use the Bible. It would be logical fallacy to ignore it because without it we have no account and we have nothing to provide evidence for. And in that examination, we should also remember that the books, and the accounts and letters are just as much a piece of the puzzle as anything else. My point is that without the Bible there is no story of which evidence is needed. Much like you could not put someone on trial and refuse their testimony of the event or the testimony of the other eye witnesses with the assumption that they could not give an accurate account of the event.

Maybe we should start another thread if we are going to dig into all of this? Because there is a ton of history that needs to be laid out and this thread is going to go way off topic when we get started.

i guess the resurrection story as presented in the Bible is what is "on trial" here. Just like in court I can say "I didn't do it" but there has to be independently verifiable evidence (an alibi) in order for me to expect anyone to take my word for it.

I'm familiar with the works of Josephus and Tacitus, but I've never seen anything outside of the NT accounts that speak on Jesus' resurrection. I actually count Josephus/Tacitus as objective sources that can verify that he *lived*. Not necessarily that he was resurrected. Objectively speaking I haven't seen evidence that can qualify his resurrection (as opposed to his life). So I'm open to any info you want to share. We can start another thread if u wish.

[trini_gsr]

by the way trini gsr were you the one asking me for my testimony?

nah that wasnt me that was the other guy, i forget his name :D

[hydroshutter]

Maybe Jesus was an Alien that landed on Earth with advanced technology and wanted to help us to improve our lives. A certain group of people who controlled the world from behind the scenes saw this as a bad thing and wanted him dead. So they killed him to remain in control of the sheeple. Seems possible.

History Channel Ancient Aliens 2009 HD 720p part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH66LramO8U) Interesting shit, no doubt.
http://i32.tinypic.com/10gh84w.jpg

[d993s]

.....

[d993s]

A little early for christmass

[BABY J]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/the_resurrection_hoax.htm

[geoff]

once agian people use the bible to try and disprove but we as believers cant use it as evidence. funny no?:thinking:

[geoff]

i also like to point out how your little evidence baby j first says that paul only said Jesus was crucified for our sins and then rose from the dead. it then later states that paul never mentioned Jesus rising agian. funny how it states the bible contradicts itself then it goes and does it.

[sport_122]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/the_resurrection_hoax.htm

There are so many things wrong with this article. I am not even going to get into it.

Baby J... are you investigating Islam? :thinking:

[sport_122]

i guess the resurrection story as presented in the Bible is what is "on trial" here. Just like in court I can say "I didn't do it" but there has to be independently verifiable evidence (an alibi) in order for me to expect anyone to take my word for it.

I'm familiar with the works of Josephus and Tacitus, but I've never seen anything outside of the NT accounts that speak on Jesus' resurrection. I actually count Josephus/Tacitus as objective sources that can verify that he *lived*. Not necessarily that he was resurrected. Objectively speaking I haven't seen evidence that can qualify his resurrection (as opposed to his life). So I'm open to any info you want to share. We can start another thread if u wish.

Lemme get some stuff together and I will post it up. I will get a new thread going as well. But it will be Friday or late tomorrow (Thurs) night when I do it. And for the sake of compiling arguments I may go one step at a time. I am trying to get out of the long posts, but I just feel like I need to walk on eggshells because someone is always trying to "twist" my words or quote me without understanding me.

[geoff]

i would like to point out why there are some differences in the gospels. they do not condradict themselves but eachone gives a different point of view. take this for example...

if you put a class of seniors in high school to watch a video for 2 days and then tell them to wright a report on it, each and every report will be different even tho they watched the same vidoe, took in the same info, and experienced the same things. why? because different things stood out to different people. some focus on certian parts and others on another. this does not mean that the reports will condradict themselves or that they are lying or even that you can use one to disprove the other

[ahabion]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/the_resurrection_hoax.htm


If Paul is the first writer, then he must be relaying the earliest tradition, yet the Gospels, written many decades later, record an entirely different story.

This certainly proves that the resurrection was fabricated in the oral tradition, because there’s not a single reference to the resurrection by historians like Philo Judaeus, and the testimony of Josephus is wholly agreed to be a forgery.

This certainly proves that someone really doesn't know the bible. :goodjob: LoL, continued reading for entertainment purposes... this guy couldn't be more wrong in Biblical FACTS... their logic is ERRORed. :lmfao:

[geoff]

i see the original poster of this source has yet to make a rebutal. when your wrong your wrong

[Maniacc]

i see the original poster of this source has yet to make a rebutal. when your wrong your wrong
First of all it's spelled rebuttal, and you also misspelled you're wrong TWICE. Am I responding to a person who failed language arts?

And second. You want me to reply to your posts - that have yet to prove my previous posts wrong. Know why? Because you can not. I've been far too busy to really sit down and read the posts in the last couple of pages.

Give me some notes and I'll commit multi-quote assault on them later.

But before I fall asleep lemme say a few things. If you are fully sane you should be able to see how idiotic your posts are, or at least think they are stupid. Because believing things with no or invalid proof is pretty much what being stupid is all about. Let me ask you this, if I told you I believe for sure that masturbating unicorns are secretly planning to take over earth early next year with Mario Cantone clones riding them bareback -would you say that is a stupid belief? Or would you not call it stupid, but just say it's a belief that you 'don't share?'

Also. Just throwing this out there for the hell of it, but I personally don't consider myself atheist or agnostic because claiming to be an atheist is a pretty bold statment, but even the overly enthusiastic atheists -- at least are accurate and logical in what they are talking about - whereas the religious people believe insane illogical crap like a guy coming back from the dead, a virgin birth, and that a guy on an arc who was 500 years old gathered two of each species of animals(must have been a pretty big boat...) and got them all to fuck during a flood of the entire earth which is physically impossible since the water supply of earth is finite and has to go somewhere so if there was a flood that big then where did all this new flood water come from?

And then where did the water go when the flood was over? It would have to evaporate back into the air but there is not enough air space to hold that much proportion of water - so it's impossible and obviously total bullshit.

What do you think of a guy who believes in scientology, and their beliefs that some alien leader named Xenu dropped off alien souls into a fucking volcano on earth and the souls then came out of the volcano and inhabited human bodies? You respect that person's sanity? Well they have exactly the same amount of proof behind their story as Christianity or any other religion, which is zero. Atheists, the ones who spend a lot of time with it, while they may be wasting their time to a degree, although that's pretty subjective, aren't believing in a bunch of bullshit.

[Maniacc]

This post goes out to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ, God, the Virgin Mary, Noah, Santa Clause, Unicorns, ect ect...

One day long ago in a galaxy far far away, an unmeasurably dense object imploded, then exploded causing a near infinite number of particles smashing into each other while constantly floating away from its origin point. Most combonations resulted in instant death for the compounds. Some resulted in life in various ways --from stars so much more complex in their systems than a human and even more common are all the micro organisms all over the universe.

As far as the masses know, we are the only conscious species with a feedback unit. But if you noticed, we are far from perfect. There can easily be a better species that is built more resistent to the elements, whose consciousness doesn't even have a word or understanding of words such as 'torture,' and who live in orgasmic like constant happiness for thousands of years.

On the flipside, there are probably conscious beings somewhere who have only one apendage and 10 year life spans which end is bulbous throat tumors slowly suffocating the individual. And they too probably looked up one day and wondered what it all meant, and started writing stories about what they thought and recorded it in their 'bible,' and used the same arguement you are. 'Well look how much more complex we are compared to the bugs and rock around us, someone MUST have made us.' That's not a real arguement, that's the type of question you would get wrong on an IQ test.

Think of this another way: To someone from the 1800s, a 1985 computer would be super complex or possibily considered magical witchcraft. Now a 1985 computer is obsolete and quite simple. It's all relative. And a relative statement never makes for fact.

There are infinite possiblities of what is out there, we just happen to be what we are because, well, we just are. If we weren't then we wouldn't be able to think about it. So it's not really luck. It just is. Doesn't mean there isn't a 'higher power.' Shit, we could be the experiment of some chemist on some planet 1000000 light years away whose average citizen is 500 feet tall.

It does mean that arguing about God is pretty pointless. What is destructive however is beliveing for certainty in God. If there is indeed a omniscent God that created mankind, then he would want us to use our gift of consciousness. Believers in God, whichever religion, have forsaked a large part of their free thinking mind.

[Maniacc]

How's that for a rebutal, geoff?

[ahabion]

This post goes out to everyone who believes in Jesus Christ, God, the Virgin Mary, Noah, Santa Clause, Unicorns, ect ect...

One day long ago in a galaxy far far away, an unmeasurably dense object imploded, then exploded causing a near infinite number of particles smashing into each other while constantly floating away from its origin point. Most combonations resulted in instant death for the compounds. Some resulted in life in various ways --from stars so much more complex in their systems than a human and even more common are all the micro organisms all over the universe.

As far as the masses know, we are the only conscious species with a feedback unit. But if you noticed, we are far from perfect. There can easily be a better species that is built more resistent to the elements, whose consciousness doesn't even have a word or understanding of words such as 'torture,' and who live in orgasmic like constant happiness for thousands of years.

On the flipside, there are probably conscious beings somewhere who have only one apendage and 10 year life spans which end is bulbous throat tumors slowly suffocating the individual. And they too probably looked up one day and wondered what it all meant, and started writing stories about what they thought and recorded it in their 'bible,' and used the same arguement you are. 'Well look how much more complex we are compared to the bugs and rock around us, someone MUST have made us.' That's not a real arguement, that's the type of question you would get wrong on an IQ test.

Think of this another way: To someone from the 1800s, a 1985 computer would be super complex or possibily considered magical witchcraft. Now a 1985 computer is obsolete and quite simple. It's all relative. And a relative statement never makes for fact.

There are infinite possiblities of what is out there, we just happen to be what we are because, well, we just are. If we weren't then we wouldn't be able to think about it. So it's not really luck. It just is. Doesn't mean there isn't a 'higher power.' Shit, we could be the experiment of some chemist on some planet 1000000 light years away whose average citizen is 500 feet tall.

It does mean that arguing about God is pretty pointless. What is destructive however is beliveing for certainty in God. If there is indeed a omniscent God that created mankind, then he would want us to use our gift of consciousness. Believers in God, whichever religion, have forsaked a large part of their free thinking mind.

How 'bout on the flipside of the coin Maniacc? What if it were possible that in your belief in this dense object implosion and not believing in a God or some omniscient being that it would be you who has forsaken a large part of your free thinking mind?

[geoff]

^ +1. and i have one question for you maniac. this dense object that imploded...how did it get here? let me get at you with some logic son. if your believe in sciences then you must believe in the law of causality or Newtons first law "A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force." .

Hence, you CAN NOT have an effect without a cause or vise versa. and Newtons law is pretty self explanitory. so 1. what was the source of the cause of the universe as nothing can not and will never produce something? and 2. if the universe was here and imploded to create what we call life, what was the external force that caused it to leave its state of rest or motionlessness? My God was the one that caused the universe, My God was the external force that put everything into motion. your " precious theories" fall very short my friend and you say that i use my imagination to believe in a God that doesnt exist, when your own scientific logic expects you to just use your imagination to fill in the blanks where it can not explain the origins of all life.

[sport_122]

But before I fall asleep lemme say a few things. If you are fully sane you should be able to see how idiotic your posts are, or at least think they are stupid. Because believing things with no or invalid proof is pretty much what being stupid is all about. Let me ask you this, if I told you I believe for sure that masturbating unicorns are secretly planning to take over earth early next year with Mario Cantone clones riding them bareback -would you say that is a stupid belief? Or would you not call it stupid, but just say it's a belief that you 'don't share?'

Also. Just throwing this out there for the hell of it, but I personally don't consider myself atheist or agnostic because claiming to be an atheist is a pretty bold statment, but even the overly enthusiastic atheists -- at least are accurate and logical in what they are talking about - whereas the religious people believe insane illogical crap like a guy coming back from the dead, a virgin birth, and that a guy on an arc who was 500 years old gathered two of each species of animals(must have been a pretty big boat...) and got them all to fuck during a flood of the entire earth which is physically impossible since the water supply of earth is finite and has to go somewhere so if there was a flood that big then where did all this new flood water come from?


The flood in Noahs account was a regional flood. The bible talks about the world being flooded because it was a large region. You find that out pretty quickly when you study the text in its context and original language.

Also as for the unicorns. Provide us with compiled selection of evidence and I will be able to make a good conclusion.

Maniacc, the reason we sound so strange to you is that you have not looked at the evidence. The evidence does not have to prove our case or convince you of our worldview, but it should at least get you to understand that the unicorn theory as used by Dawkins, Hitchens, and all of the "free thinkers", is very inaccurate in describing believers. The irony for me is that most of these "free thinkers" or militant atheists who say crap like this are exactly the opposite. They outwardly admit to ignoring the evidence of their errors and the evidence of their non-scientific approach to theorizing and then THEY have the nerve to say that someone else is ignoring the case.

Well, Maniacc, when you have a case and I present a series of arguments from the same field and other fields of study then I have earned the ability to say that I do NOT agree with your theories as a "free thinker" based on the simple point that there is a much better case against you.

Dawkins touts evolution as if it even remotely explains human origins (he admits it doesn't) and that human origins have to be a product of something else. Even though he describes evolution as a very intricate and structured process. I don't believe in his evolution version either by the way.

Then you get Christopher Hitchens, who hasn't made a valid argument yet, but gets off of bickering and name calling like a little british school girl. His strongest argument is the expansion of our universe, which only demonstrates that our universe is STILL submissive to the laws of its origin.

These men are not free thinkers, and if you would just look at some of their debate without trying to be bitter about religions then you would see that they are not making good cases against God. They make god cases against stupid fundamentalists, but never against God. Their points always land on..."its just absurd" but never is there any substance to those arguments.

But again, you don't have to believe and we are not called to provide proof. We are called to provide evidence because that is what leads to legitimate belief.


There are infinite possiblities of what is out there, we just happen to be what we are because, well, we just are. If we weren't then we wouldn't be able to think about it. So it's not really luck. It just is. Doesn't mean there isn't a 'higher power.' Shit, we could be the experiment of some chemist on some planet 1000000 light years away whose average citizen is 500 feet tall.

You admit infinite possibilities yet none of those possibilities in your mind has to do with a resurrection of our God with us, living and breathing on our earth. And your giant chemist argument only leads to the same issues of origins of all things.

[geoff]

i would like to add that the biggest down fall to the theory of evolution that dawkins and others like to promote is that THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING and so means that it will have an end. and anything that has an end has to have had and ending for you cant have an effect without a cause. and since the universe had a beggining and it can not account for its own existence and is not sufficient enough to have caused itself then it is contingent meaning it needs someting or someone that is outside of itself who is not subject to the natural laws to have created it or put it in motion. Stephen Hawking ( an extremely intelligent man and Brittians most eminent physicist) once remarked, " the odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the big bang are enormous, i think there are clearly religious implications."

[Maniacc]

i would like to add that the biggest down fall to the theory of evolution that dawkins and others like to promote is that THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING and so means that it will have an end. and anything that has an end has to have had and ending for you cant have an effect without a cause. and since the universe had a beggining and it can not account for its own existence and is not sufficient enough to have caused itself then it is contingent meaning it needs someting or someone that is outside of itself who is not subject to the natural laws to have created it or put it in motion. Stephen Hawking ( an extremely intelligent man and Brittians most eminent physicist) once remarked, " the odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the big bang are enormous, i think there are clearly religious implications."


Your argument is a false one because you are inferring that God created the universe but then who created God? Your theory is that 'one thing' cannot be created without a creator - if that's the case. I ask you again. Who created God?

It's a vicious cycle where progress is not made.




^ +1. and i have one question for you maniac. this dense object that imploded...how did it get here? let me get at you with some logic son. if your believe in sciences then you must believe in the law of causality or Newtons first law "A body persists its state of rest or of uniform motion unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force." .


Why couldn't you answer my question? You had to question me before even attempting to answer mine. Is it because you can't? Don't answer that. Just let me go ahead and answer yours.

It came from emptiness. Emptiness is different than nothingness. The only thing that can come from nothing is nothing. Every action has a reaction. Theres never been a time where there was no action/reaction. That's the awesome part about not believing in God.

I don't have to make up shit to answer this unknown question.

I don't have to believe that a person who resembles a human-being created existence! Trillions and trillions of light years worth of starts, planets, suns, ect. How could he create all that? It's not possible unless the cosmos is God. My buddy Carl wants to add his 2 cents:Then where did the big bang come from? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34-1W_9BhoU)

The only thing I do know is that anyone who claims to know the answer to the question is a fucking liar, and probably a meth addict.



My God was the one that caused the universe, My God was the external force that put everything into motion. your " precious theories" fall very short my friend and you say that i use my imagination to believe in a God that doesnt exist, when your own scientific logic expects you to just use your imagination to fill in the blanks where it can not explain the origins of all life.


Haha, what a bold statement, Geo. You claim to already know that God created EVERYTHING before you even know if Hell or Heaven really exist. Amazing! Can you see into the future? Did God bless with you God-like powers to be able to answer questions that aren't answerable by ontologists?

Why do people laugh at creationists? (part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY) Seriously, Geo. Watch the entire series.




How 'bout on the flipside of the coin Maniacc? What if it were possible that in your belief in this dense object implosion and not believing in a God or some omniscient being that it would be you who has forsaken a large part of your free thinking mind?

Like I told, Geo. You couldn't answer my question so you tried the ol' lemme ask him a question and maybe I won't have to answer this unanswerable question so I don't have to make another excuse about how God is Teh Man.

So, let's get real.

What a lot of people don't even realize is that religion was largely influenced by the ET phenomenon. Benevolent and malevolent extraterrestrial, light-bearing entities that either lived here or visited this planet thousands of years ago were turned into gods and angels by the primitive civilizations and worshipped. America is only 200 years old and every modern-day archeologist was born into that time.

Earth is over 4 billion years old. There's been plenty of time for the evidence to have gotten erased, deleted, or lost. Aliens could have played a huge role in the evolution of religion. Why is that so hard to take into account, guys?