Fuck the media and fuck Israel

[SampaGuy]

This is bullshit right here.

I could careless about Cynthia Mckinney btw.



http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/05/media-silence-on-israeli-hijacking-of-aid-boat/


http://middleeast.about.com/b/2009/07/02/595.htm

[bookthief]

Fuck politics, I just wanna blow shit up.

[BanginJimmy]

Go Israel, I only wish the US had the nuts to actually uphold its own borders they they do.

I just dont understand why people keep fucking with Israel. They have proven time and again that they will do what they think needs to be done and they dont care what the world thinks.

[David88vert]

Let's see, a boat ignores warnings and crosses into a sovereign country's waters. Basically, it breaks the law. The sovereign country stops the boat and arrests the lawbreakers.

Why does it matter if two of the people on board were a FORMER Congresswoman, and a Nobel laureate? If you break the law and get caught, you get arrested. How can Israel know if a boat is carrying humanitarian supplies or weapons UNLESS they stop it?
If YOU took a boat and tried to sneak into England/France/Italy/etc, the same thing would happen.

If Cynthia McKinney wanted to do anything OTHER THAN get her face in the media, she would pursue diplomatic channels within our government to put pressure on Israel to allow more aid. Of course, that aid would have to pass through checkpoints as it has to now. Pursuant to the Oslo Accords signed between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, Israel maintains military control of the Gaza strip's airspace, land borders and territorial waters.

Now, did Cynthia McKinney attempt to break the law through association also? Gaza is controlled by Hamas, which the U.S. and European Union classify as a terrorist organization. A US citizen is not allowed to associate with known terrorists.

What about the supplies? Israeli officials promised to deliver by ground the humanitarian supplies that were on the boat. If the supplies are delivered, then what is she so angry about? Mission accomplished, right?

And finally, plv, your first linked article was nothing more than a biased reply to this Washington Post OPINION piece: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2009/07/cynthia_mckinney_strikes_again.html?hpid=news-col-blog

[Spectic Tank]

Go Israel, I only wish the US had the nuts to actually uphold its own borders they they do.

I just dont understand why people keep fucking with Israel. They have proven time and again that they will do what they think needs to be done and they dont care what the world thinks.


Israel is upholding the borders of the country they stole from Palestine.

People keep fucking with Israel because they are probably the biggest 'terrorist' group in the middle east. Plus, we back them up %100 so why would they care what everyone else thinks?

[sirkus]

Israel is upholding the borders of the country they stole from Palestine.
:yes:

[David88vert]

Israel is upholding the borders of the country they stole from Palestine.


Incorrect statement.

Gaza was conquered by the British in the Third Battle of Gaza in 1917 during WWI.
Gaza became part of the British Mandate of Palestine under the authority of the League of Nations, who required Britain to implement the Balfour Declaration establishing in Palestine a "national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Jews were present in Gaza from ancient times until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza.

How did Israel steal the territory before they were a country?

[The Ren]

Incorrect statement.

Gaza was conquered by the British in the Third Battle of Gaza in 1917 during WWI.
Gaza became part of the British Mandate of Palestine under the authority of the League of Nations, who required Britain to implement the Balfour Declaration establishing in Palestine a "national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Jews were present in Gaza from ancient times until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza.

How did Israel steal the territory before they were a country?

QFT..

Saying Israel stole the land from palenstine is like saying Israel started the 2nd lebonese war.. its total bullshit.

Oh and just so you know all the supplies still got to Gaza.. Israel was just protecting their boarders and not allowing that fuckstick Mckenny to make a huge show.. /thread

[SampaGuy]

Let's see, a boat ignores warnings and crosses into a sovereign country's waters. Basically, it breaks the law. The sovereign country stops the boat and arrests the lawbreakers.




25 miles into the sea is not israels territory, thats the whole point of the article maybe you should read it again

[SampaGuy]

They have proven time and again that they will do what they think needs to be done and they dont care what the world thinks.


sounds like north korea

[EJ25RUN]

Try living in Israel. Half my family does and they can all tell you that the way the media portrays it is totally false.

At the end of the day, when everywhere you go you see soldiers because real treats from idiots exists are a real part of life. Most Isrealis don't have a problem with Palestinians, its just everyone has a problem with us. So to me, this is normal way of doing something.

Oh, btw, unlike North Korea, Israel just wants peace and isn't trying to construct armagedon.

[The Ren]

Try living in Israel. Half my family does and they can all tell you that the way the media portrays it is totally false.

At the end of the day, when everywhere you go you see soldiers because real treats from idiots exists are a real part of life. Most Isrealis don't have a problem with Palestinians, its just everyone has a problem with us. So to me, this is normal way of doing something.

Oh, btw, unlike North Korea, Israel just wants peace and isn't trying to construct armagedon.

Thank you!!

I was just in Israel last month and half of my family lives there too.. and All Israel wants is peace. You think they like living everyday like they are going to be attacked?

Problem is Israel will end up giving palenstine a state and that wont be enough so they will start a war.. and my guess is Israel will get so fed up they will drive the palestinians into Jordan and let them deal with it.

[Spectic Tank]

Incorrect statement.

Gaza was conquered by the British in the Third Battle of Gaza in 1917 during WWI.
Gaza became part of the British Mandate of Palestine under the authority of the League of Nations, who required Britain to implement the Balfour Declaration establishing in Palestine a "national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". Jews were present in Gaza from ancient times until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza.

How did Israel steal the territory before they were a country?

When you conquer an area and displace over 600,000 of the inhabitants then you are stealing the land. I don't care what the treaties say, Israel is a Joke and so are we for supporting anything they do.

[EJ25RUN]

When you conquer an area and displace over 600,000 of the inhabitants then you are stealing the land. I don't care what the treaties say, Israel is a Joke and so are we for supporting anything they do.

How is it a joke? Why do you think we support them?

[The Ren]

How is it a joke? Why do you think we support them?

you totally look my thoughts out of my head on this one

[EJ25RUN]

you totally look my thoughts out of my head on this one

Its funny how people refuse to see that Isreal is one of the VERY FEW countries that supports America.

I'd like to see someone come up with legit plausable reasons for why Isreal is such a bad thing. As far as i'm concerned Isreal is the U.S. only ally in the middle east.

[The Ren]

Its funny how people refuse to see that Isreal is one of the VERY FEW countries that supports America.

I'd like to see someone come up with legit plausable reasons for why Isreal is such a bad thing. As far as i'm concerned Isreal is the U.S. only ally in the middle east.

Very true.. and the capability of the Israeli army is something the US could def benefit from.

[David88vert]

25 miles into the sea is not israels territory, thats the whole point of the article maybe you should read it again

McKinney's crew claims that they were 25 miles out (nautical miles).
No one has provided GPS coordinates, so you and I do not know where they actually were located physically, throughout the course of the stop.
We will assume that she is right for this paragraph though. Do you know why it makes sense to set a blockade at 25 miles? Because, according to the Oslo agreement, Gaza fishermen can go out as far as twenty nautical miles (about thirty-seven kilometers) from the coastline (except for a few areas, to which they were prohibited entry).

Do you understand what a military blockade is?
Let me ask it this way. If you see a police checkpoint ahead at the entrance to a friend's neighborhood, and you try to drive past it, do you think that the police will just let you by? Even if your excuse is that you are delivering food to your needy friend? Use some common sense....

[btstone]

there are some dumb asses in here.....

mckinney is a joke, she was a joke when she was in office

Isreal is our supporter yes, so we back them.
the reason the rest of the world does not like this is becasue the worl dhas become so fucking sensitive to terrorist and thier feelings they think we should let them bomb shit and kill ppl. after they blow stuff up, most of the world thinks we should just be diplomatic and talk to the terrorist about it,

you cant be diplomatic to a guy that has an AK and shoots everything or to a guy who runs in a school building and blows up kids.

[tony]

Thats right, everyone else are terrorists, if you're aligned with us you can't possibly be in the wrong.

They said something similar about Georgia and Russia..

[BanginJimmy]

Thats right, everyone else are terrorists, if you're aligned with us you can't possibly be in the wrong.

If you ask me, Israel is FAR nicer than they should be. If the US was being rocketed from Canada on a daily basis I would imagine most Americans would be calling for war.


If I has the power to make Israeli policy, you best believe Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and Iran would already be smoldering wastelands. Put simply, all of them have committed acts of war against Israel, yet Israel has shown more restraint than I think should be expected. In fact, I would compare what Israel faces on a yearly basis to Pearl Harbor. Do you think Roosevelt made the right decision there?

[tony]

If you ask me, Israel is FAR nicer than they should be. If the US was being rocketed from Canada on a daily basis I would imagine most Americans would be calling for war.


If I has the power to make Israeli policy, you best believe Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and Iran would already be smoldering wastelands. Put simply, all of them have committed acts of war against Israel, yet Israel has shown more restraint than I think should be expected. In fact, I would compare what Israel faces on a yearly basis to Pearl Harbor. Do you think Roosevelt made the right decision there?

If the U.S was furthering our border into Canada then yeah I'm sure Canada would respond not so nicely. Are they wrong for responding or did we create that hostile environment in the first place?

[BanginJimmy]

If the U.S was furthering our border into Canada then yeah I'm sure Canada would respond not so nicely. Are they wrong for responding or did we create that hostile environment in the first place?

Palastine was never a sovereign country though. They were a British colony until after WWII. The British, under pressure from the newly created UN, were basicly forced into giving the Jews a homeland in the so called holy land.

None of that really matters for this discussion though. What matters is that Israel is constantly under attack. They set up a blockade to help reduce the number of weapons coming into Gaza. McKinney was dumb enough to get caught in the blockade.

Do you honestly think that the attacks on Israel would stop if they completely left Gaza? The attacks against them are a religious thing, it has absolutely nothing to do with land. Muslim extremists only want Israel and Jews wiped off the map, land or no land.

[EJ25RUN]

Do you honestly think that the attacks on Israel would stop if they completely left Gaza? The attacks against them are a religious thing, it has absolutely nothing to do with land. Muslim extremists only want Israel and Jews wiped off the map, land or no land.

And this is what 90% of the world doesn't get. Actually, i should say refuses to get.

[The Ren]

Do you honestly think that the attacks on Israel would stop if they completely left Gaza? The attacks against them are a religious thing, it has absolutely nothing to do with land. Muslim extremists only want Israel and Jews wiped off the map, land or no land.

They aren't the only ones..

[David88vert]

Do you honestly think that the attacks on Israel would stop if they completely left Gaza?

Israel is not in Gaza. Governmental control stopped in 1994, and was handed over to the Palestinians. Arafat mismanged Gaza for many years. Hamas just won the Battle of Gaza back in 2007, remember?

As to military control, Israel pulled out all military and civilians from Gaza as part of the unilateral diengagement in September 2005. There are no Israelis living in nor ruling over Gaza. They even turned over the Phillipi Route to Egypt at the same time - even though Israel was to control it accoring to the Oslo agreements. What's funny is that some people here are saying that Israel is the one at fault, but in reality, Egypt closed it's border crossing also. Egypt has the capability to send in as much humanitarian aid, and even weapons, that it chooses to Hamas. They choose not to. But that must be Israel's fault also, right? Arab foreign ministers and Palestinian officials presented a united front against control of the border by Hamas after the 2007 election. Israeli and Egyptian security reports claimed that Hamas continued smuggling in large quantities of explosives and arms from Egypt through tunnels. Egyptian security forces uncovered 60 tunnels in 2007.

Even though the Israelis pulled out, and have not expanded into Gaza, the Qassam rockets are still being fired at Israeli civilians. According to Israel, between the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip and the end of January 2008, 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs were fired at Israeli towns. Then in 2008, Hamas and their followers fired over 3000 rockets into Israel, according to Israeli reports.

FACT: Israel is not in Gaza.
FACT: Hamas STILL fires rockets into Israel - aimed at civilians.

[SampaGuy]

Why do you think we support them?


Because there are TONS of jews in America (just look at this thread), no other reason. That is ok, I have no problem with Israel, what I have a problem with is the US giving Israel full unconditional support 100% of the time, regardless of the situation.



As far as i'm concerned Isreal is the U.S. only ally in the middle east.

Lets rephrase that: Israel is the reason the US has only one ally in the middle east.



What matters is that Israel is constantly under attack.

You know that there are something like 3 Palestinian deaths to every Israeli death, right?



Muslim extremists only want Israel and Jews wiped off the map, land or no land.

After getting kicked out of their land and all the killing that has been going on, I wouldn't be surprised.



Israel is probably the only country in the world that defines itself by religion. IMO the fatal mistake is taking religion this serious to start with, but anyways, why not have a "melting pot" like in the US? That land is holy for Jews, Arabs, and Christians alike. But no, having a significant amount of Arabs living in your country cannot happen because they reproduce faster than jews, eventually making jews the minority. You have the right to exist, but that land is for everybody. Keep your religion and your country in separate folders please.

[The Ren]

US is really one of the only places that sooo many religons co-exist. Do you know what Israel had to go through to even become Israel? The problem is.. you give an inch they take a mile... if Israel were to give Palestine their own state, they wouldnt be happy and they would still try to go to war with Israel. Its never enough.

BTW if you havent been paying attention to the news Obama made it perfectly clear he is NOT ok with Israel going after Iran.. so dont go saying that the US is ok with everything Israel does.

[David88vert]

Because there are TONS of jews in America (just look at this thread), no other reason. That is ok, I have no problem with Israel, what I have a problem with is the US giving Israel full unconditional support 100% of the time, regardless of the situation.

For the record, I am not Jewish, nor have I ever been to Israel.
I have worked closely with both Jews and Muslims in business. I have no issue with normal, reasonable members of either religion.



Lets rephrase that: Israel is the reason the US has only one ally in the middle east.

Of course. Does that mean that they do not have the right to exist also?



You know that there are something like 3 Palestinian deaths to every Israeli death, right?

So, should Israel lower its defense's and let more of their own die?



Israel is probably the only country in the world that defines itself by religion.

I guess that you have never been to a "Muslim" country before then. Your statement could probably be changed to "Israel is probably the only civilized country in the world that defines itself by religion".



IMO the fatal mistake is taking religion this serious to start with, but anyways, why not have a "melting pot" like in the US? That land is holy for Jews, Arabs, and Christians alike. But no, having a significant amount of Arabs living in your country cannot happen because they reproduce faster than jews, eventually making jews the minority. You have the right to exist, but that land is for everybody. Keep your religion and your country in separate folders please.
That would be great, and I agree with you that in theory that is the best practice. In reality, they have a major religion-based disagreement over one small set of land in Jerusalem. Until you can resolve that, there will be no peace between them. Both of these groups see their religion as paramount to their country. They will not keep them seperate.

[SampaGuy]

I guess that you have never been to a "Muslim" country before then. Your statement could probably be changed to "Israel is probably the only civilized country in the world that defines itself by religion".


Thats a good point, while only more "primitive" Asian/Middle Eastern/African countries are still doing the religion thing and fighting about it, the more "civilized" North/South America/Europe have freedom of religion and prospering (in comparison). What boat does Israel want to be in?

The biotech company I'm interning at is desperately seeking investment capital to expand into the pharma market, we got an offer from the Israeli government to be fully funded for 5 years if we move there (they are trying to stimulate their economy and what not). My boss did not take it... Israel needs to sort out its conflict if it wants to join the "civilized" world. With the current mentality it is not going to happen anytime soon.

[EJ25RUN]

Thats a good point, while only more "primitive" Asian/Middle Eastern/African countries are still doing the religion thing and fighting about it, the more "civilized" North/South America/Europe have freedom of religion and prospering (in comparison). What boat does Israel want to be in?

The biotech company I'm interning at is desperately seeking investment capital to expand into the pharma market, we got an offer from the Israeli government to be fully funded for 5 years if we move there (they are trying to stimulate their economy and what not). My boss did not take it... Israel needs to sort out its conflict if it wants to join the "civilized" world. With the current mentality it is not going to happen anytime soon.

Current mentality? You think Isreal is one of these war desiring countries? I seriously doubting you fully understand the situation.

Isreal is one of the most technically advanced countries in the world and does not have a kill all menality.

Like David said,the surrounding countries are trying to exterminate Isreal off the face of the earth while Isreal is trying to exist as a normal country and at the same time realizing that life is not guaranteed. My family being Jewish has nothing to do with it. I am a civilized person and have never had any issues with palestinians.

My issue is that most of the world and most of the media puts Isreal in the same boat as these terrorist countries that are out to ruin the world.

Isreal has greatly helped the U.S. advance its military and that of other countries.

It isn't Isreal's or its people's fault that they want to live normal lives but can't because of the region around them. Jews don't teach their kids to hate Muslims but the Palestians have for hundreds of years. Again, as someone that has been there, i can say the media has twisted the situation to a point where everyone looks at Isreal like a bully.

The only thing Hamas and all these other organizations want is the death of Isreal and all its people. Until that happens, this will go on.

Are you suggesting that in order for Isreal to become civilized, this should be allowed to happen?

btw....what is your take on Hamas?

[Vteckidd]

When you conquer an area and displace over 600,000 of the inhabitants then you are stealing the land. I don't care what the treaties say, Israel is a Joke and so are we for supporting anything they do.
Oh come on, that shit has happened TIME AND TIME Again throughout history.

We pushed the AMerican Indians out.

the British pushed the Irish and Scots out

What amazes me is that Palestinians would rather blow the fucking shit out of "their land" then just move on. I mean how long have we been fighting? 50-60 years over israel? 1000s of years when you get into the Jews vs Arabs.

When do you realize that your children throwing rocks and carrying on a war that serves no purpose is futile. EVOLVE, move on. There is greater atrocities that what goes on there.

Its WAR, people lose land, property, all kinds of shit. MOVE ON

The problem is the muslim community is so obsessed with what the "jews'' are doing they cant even take care of themselves. Israel just wants to be left alone and live. The Muslims and Arabs just want to kill jews.

Its really a retarded situation

[Spectic Tank]

Oh come on, that shit has happened TIME AND TIME Again throughout history.

We pushed the AMerican Indians out.



So that somehow makes it right? Just because it's happened to other civilizations that means the palestenians should just get over it...Oh, come on:rolleyes:

And people say that Israel just wants to live peacefully, well don't bulldoze and destroy hundreds of thousands of Palestinian homes and then build yours right on top of where their's used to be. People tend to get hostile when you do that.

[BanginJimmy]

And people say that Israel just wants to live peacefully, well don't bulldoze and destroy hundreds of thousands of Palestinian homes and then build yours right on top of where their's used to be. People tend to get hostile when you do that.

Homes or mud huts that are the norm in muslim nations? Either way, if the Israeli's didnt feel those homes were up to their standards, why not get rid of them and build what you want?

Again, what do you not get about this having to do with religion only? The land is the excuse they use, but it really centers around religion and religion alone.


For the record, do you believe that that Israel should have kept the lands they took in the Yom Kipur War or the 6 day war?

[Spectic Tank]

Homes or mud huts that are the norm in muslim nations? Either way, if the Israeli's didnt feel those homes were up to their standards, why not get rid of them and build what you want?

Again, what do you not get about this having to do with religion only? The land is the excuse they use, but it really centers around religion and religion alone.


For the record, do you believe that that Israel should have kept the lands they took in the Yom Kipur War or the 6 day war?

Who is Israel to decide whose houses are worthy. You don't destroy people's homes and culture to assert your own. Yes, it has happened throught history but that doesn't make it any more 'right'.

The only religion this has to do with are the Jewish zionist's belief in reestablishing a Jewish homeland. They obviously didn't care about the Arabs that already occupied the area, and now they're paying the consequence.

I don't think any of that land belongs to Israel. Even more so I don't think it's our responsibilty to help them protect it, but we do (or 'did' in that case).

[EJ25RUN]

Who is Israel to decide whose houses are worthy. You don't destroy people's homes and culture to assert your own. Yes, it has happened throught history but that doesn't make it any more 'right'.

The only religion this has to do with are the Jewish zionist's belief in reestablishing a Jewish homeland. They obviously didn't care about the Arabs that already occupied the area, and now they're paying the consequence.

I don't think any of that land belongs to Israel. Even more so I don't think it's our responsibilty to help them protect it, but we do (or 'did' in that case).

In that case it doesn't belong to the Arabs either. This is a turf war that is thousands of years old.

People keep pushing Zionism like its the only reason Israal exists. Most Arab nations consider themselves much more religeous in the muslim sense than is Israel in the Jewish sense. You know Jews occupied that area long before Islam was a religeon right?

Israel can defend itself on its own with its own military as it has proved many times before.

[Spectic Tank]

In that case it doesn't belong to the Arabs either. This is a turf war that is thousands of years old.

People keep pushing Zionism like its the only reason Israal exists. Most Arab nations consider themselves much more religeous in the muslim sense than is Israel in the Jewish sense. You know Jews occupied that area long before Islam was a religeon right?

Israel can defend itself on its own with its own military as it has proved many times before.

Who cares if they lived there before Islam? That doesn't entitle them to come back thousands of years later and kick out the group of people currently living there.

I'm glad to know they can take care of themselves. I would like to see them do it more often, and see the U.S. keep their nose out of other nations business.

[The Ren]

Who cares if they lived there before Islam? That doesn't entitle them to come back thousands of years later and kick out the group of people currently living there.


No? Why not?

[David88vert]

Who cares if they lived there before Islam? That doesn't entitle them to come back thousands of years later and kick out the group of people currently living there.


Once again I will counter ignorance with facts.

The Ottomon Turks controlled the area until the British defeated them in WWI. The League of Nations granted the United Kingdom the British Mandate of Palestine after World War I. In 1947, the UN decided to partition Palestine into a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a UN-administered Jerusalem.
Last I checked, throughout history, to the victor go the spoils. In this case, that was the British first, so they were free to do with the area as they liked.

Do you think that it hasn't happened before there, but in reverse? Jerusalem was conquered by Babylon in 586BC, and a large section of the population was exiled. Throughout history, this has been a common practice in that section of the world. What about the Jews that were removed from Gaza during the 1929 Arab riots? Some of them had lived there with their families for 2000 years. The Arabs kicked them out in 1929. I do not see you defending the exiled Jews. :thinking:

[Ehron]

The text of the topic and the original poster pretty much sum this up for me.

I used to debate this point all the time. Imagine if the Cherokee Nation decided that they had been displaced, and started lobbing missiles into areas neighboring reservations. What sort of response would you expect?

The older I get the more I realize how big a part passionate emotion plays in people's opinions. The original poster is angry, and fails to assign any critical thinking time to this topic. Therefore the Israelis are at fault, and the Palestinians are oppressed.