My day out at the police range.....

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

Finally got around to firing my brand new Glock 23c compensated pistol. It was a great gun to shoot! I went out with a cop buddy to the police/swat training field. We mainly practiced the 2 shoot drop 2 shoot then drop to the midsection then the head from 10-15 yards. anything from the side crease is from the clamps. not the pistol. i had a couple of bad shots but we were training without using sights. Also after owning 2 glocks i was taught u could do a half way trigger pull better for rapid or quick firing! I never knew it had that option.


http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04810.jpg


my target
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04812.jpg

results. i was pleased with the head shots.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04816-1.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04807.jpg

Swat's bus training.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04808.jpg

home scenario swat training
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04809.jpg

targets
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04807.jpg

courses
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04811.jpg

pop up circles. I did use sights on these from 15 yards i hit 2/3 from 1 mag. not too bad.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/damndislaosboy/DSC04813.jpg

Enjoy

[Truegiant]

shooting at something without aiming at it huh. Sounds effective.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

shooting at something without aiming at it huh. Sounds effective.

yeh its what the police call like a muscle memory thing i forgot what its really called. they say once you are in a situation and if a guy is pulling out a gun or so, you do not have time to pull out and aim with your sights. thats why we pull out and fire twice each time. i think its pretty effective and more suitable for a real life scenario. they say aiming is good to know for sure. but this is for more of a instant drill. we went in that trailer and did a scenario actually. he told me to walk through the hallway aiming, all your concentration is on your sights. and if someone pops out and fires, you are a dead man. if you have your firearm right below you and use that pull u and shoot method, you still have your whole tunnel vision with that reaction we practiced. some people may be against it but hey, its what the police/swat was teaching me the most effective way to shoot in reality. Aiming is for more of a distance thing. notice we practiced at like 15 yards max. and i pretty much almost hit the target on like atleast 90% of the shots.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

also they say people scoring 98+% on their shooting usually shoot about 70% once they are in a real life scenario.

[Danny]

i had a couple of bad shots but we were training without using sights.


:thinking:

from the looks of the target you may want to start using those sights. I mean they are there for a reason.

oh a slightly less smart ass note: that range looks like a ton of fun.

but seriously man, point shooting is like mouse milk. its a joke.

[Danny]

whoops giant beat me to it.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

well if its a joke then why does police and swat use it? i didnt say aiming is bad. im saying this is just one of the ways to shoot. me and u both have a gun in our holster and we are 10 yards away. by the time u pull it and aim, u would get shot already. not saying it as a threat just an example on why this is used. its also used for your own safety so you have all the concentration on your surroundings instead of your sights. also its nothing you perfect in a day.

[Danny]

yeh its what the police call like a muscle memory thing i forgot what its really called. they say once you are in a situation and if a guy is pulling out a gun or so, you do not have time to pull out and aim with your sights. thats why we pull out and fire twice each time. i think its pretty effective and more suitable for a real life scenario. they say aiming is good to know for sure. but this is for more of a instant drill.

muscle memory is for drawl stroke, including pushing out to the target (and being on target each time).



we went in that trailer and did a scenario actually. he told me to walk through the hallway aiming, all your concentration is on your sights. and if someone pops out and fires, you are a dead man.

eyes on front sight after PID is established. when searching your eyes are scanning looking for a thread, once PID is made then eyes go to front sight.



if you have your firearm right below you and use that pull u and shoot method, you still have your whole tunnel vision with that reaction we practiced. some people may be against it but hey, its what the police/swat was teaching me the most effective way to shoot in reality. Aiming is for more of a distance thing. notice we practiced at like 15 yards max. and i pretty much almost hit the target on like atleast 90% of the shots.

There is a delicate balance between distance and quality of aiming. Alot of cqb is front sight only type thing. as your distance gets closer, the less precise of aiming you have to do. But for someone to tell you not to use your sights in a engagement under 15yards is insane to me. And remember with 90% accuracy you killing 10 innocent babies for every 90 badguys you kill. As a civilian thats not acceptable. I train to hit close to 100% as possible, as fast as possible.

my underlying point here is not using your sights when less than 15 yards is not a fair assumption imo.

[Danny]

well if its a joke then why does police and swat use it? i didnt sat aiming is bad. im saying this is just one of the ways to shoot. me and u both have a gun in our holster and we are 10 yards away. by the time u pull it and aim, u would get shot already. not saying it as a threat just an example on why this is used.

i dont like the term point shooting, it suggests no use of sights and keeping you eyes focused on the BG at all times. Like i mentioned before there is a relationship between distance and sight alignment. I just hate seeing "point shooting" replace this crucial relationship. thats it.

edit. just out of curiosity, where in the drawl stroke do u start firing at the 10yd mark in this type scenario? not going to argue which one of us would kill the other first, we will be here all day.

[Danny]

ps. you forgot to post the gun porn man. we have dead paper all of the place, but no dirty glock :(

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

muscle memory is for drawl stroke, including pushing out to the target (and being on target each time).



eyes on front sight after PID is established. when searching your eyes are scanning looking for a thread, once PID is made then eyes go to front sight.



There is a delicate balance between distance and quality of aiming. Alot of cqb is front sight only type thing. as your distance gets closer, the less precise of aiming you have to do. But for someone to tell you not to use your sights in a engagement under 15yards is insane to me. And remember with 90% accuracy you killing 10 innocent babies for every 90 badguys you kill. As a civilian thats not acceptable. I train to hit close to 100% as possible, as fast as possible.

my underlying point here is not using your sights when less than 15 yards is not a fair assumption imo.

yeh i feel you. i totally need to step up my aiming and distance game but i just thought it was a cool method to know. i personally would not use it everytime but it would be good for a face to face situation or certain different scenarios.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

ps. you forgot to post the gun porn man. we have dead paper all of the place, but no dirty glock :(

didnt take any pics of the glock. but it did get a bit dirty on the slits on the slide n barrel but i do have the brand new pics in a thread here.

[Truegiant]

I respect what you were tought. Shooting is a discipline that must be mastered. Almost 90% of all military, law enforcement, civilian shootings are from 7yds or closer. I can promise you I do not point shoot or click shoot or whatever your calling it. That is just my way of teaching and they way I prefer it.

I would hate to be in court and the jury ask me if I actually aimed or just point shot when im facing murder of an inocent bystander. IMO..


Oh and danny... Now your gay and slow at posting.. haha

[Danny]

yeh i feel you. i totally need to step up my aiming and distance game but i just thought it was a cool method to know. i personally would not use it everytime but it would be good for a face to face situation or certain different scenarios.


a drill i like that may interest you is shooting soon as you are extended and on target (zero delay). These are aimed shots, that train you to pick up the sights fast and muscle memory to present the weapon the same way each time. this eliminates the "time to aim" argument, and also practices safe gun handling by aiming what your shooting at.

that may be the solution your looking for?!?!

[Truegiant]

oh yeah.. and gun porn.

I will say. I am greatful that your actually under taking training and practice. Alot of people buy there gun. Put 50 rds through it and call themselves experts. I can promise you that prlly 95% of the people I have met have never actually shot the type of personal defense ammo that they carry on a daily basis.

Thats a whole nother story.

Oh and I love those targets. Thats a large frame to be shooting at for practice. I guess all muggers are 260 lbs.

And on a side note about what danny said. Atleast 30% and maybe more of those shots are not going to stop a determined attacker.

[Danny]

Oh and danny... Now your gay and slow at posting.. haha


its hard to live up to your standards master.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/4/21/128848008953255470.jpg

[Truegiant]

a drill i like that may interest you is shooting soon as you are extended and on target (zero delay). These are aimed shots, that train you to pick up the sights fast and muscle memory to present the weapon the same way each time. this eliminates the "time to aim" argument, and also practices safe gun handling by aiming what your shooting at.

that may be the solution your looking for?!?!

The best way to practice this drill is with standard sights and not night sights or any form of tridium sight. It really gets you to practice muscle memory because you dont have that nice pretty front white dot to stair at.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

a drill i like that may interest you is shooting soon as you are extended and on target (zero delay). These are aimed shots, that train you to pick up the sights fast and muscle memory to present the weapon the same way each time. this eliminates the "time to aim" argument, and also practices safe gun handling by aiming what your shooting at.

that may be the solution your looking for?!?!

sounds great. i love learning different tactics. we should schedule a range meet!!! i still got alot of range time to put in.

lol btw true giant. i am going to savannah july 16-19. i saw u teach classes down there. If i have time i would love to stop by.

[Truegiant]

sounds great. i love learning different tactics. we should schedule a range meet.i still got alot of range time to put in.

lol btw true giant. i am going to savannah july 16-19. i saw u teach classes down there. If i have time i would love to stop by.

I will check my training schedule at work. If I have off I do not mind sharing information. I hate to use the word teach. It implies that I have knowledge. And right now I feel dumb as shit. (I had to take a class on a new optics system our unit is switching to. WOW! Talk about overload.)

[Danny]

also they say people scoring 98+% on their shooting usually shoot about 70% once they are in a real life scenario.


sounds about right. i have heard 25% of accuracy and skill goes out the window in adriniline dump. I have a feeling these are VERY conservative figures for the vast majority of us.

i scored a 99.3% on the ga police qual, i wouldn't be surprised if that just plummeted if i had TrueGiant chasing me around yelling like a crazy flaming homosexual.

Thats why i have been taught to train accurate, cause you fist to hand sized group during training will open up to hand size minimum.

[Danny]

The best way to practice this drill is with standard sights and not night sights or any form of tridium sight. It really gets you to practice muscle memory because you dont have that nice pretty front white dot to stair at.


i like that

*paints sights black*

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

sounds about right. i have heard 25% of accuracy and skill goes out the window in adriniline dump. I have a feeling these are VERY conservative figures for the vast majority of us.

i scored a 99.3% on the ga police qual, i wouldn't be surprised if that just plummeted if i had TrueGiant chasing me around yelling like a crazy flaming homosexual.

Thats why i have been taught to train accurate, cause you fist to hand sized group during training will open up to hand size minimum.


danny i would love to session with you. I still think i stink but i will put in more time.

[Danny]

i suck man. the more you learn, the more you realize how bad you suck. but with that said i would love to meet up, and dump the very little i know into your brain.

I am down for shooting, i really want to find a good place to setup outside, with the field to ourselves and do some moving drills and other dynamic training.

i have been trying to schedule a session with john (truegaint) for a year now, but i think my lack of tits greatly effects my chances of this 'session' ever happening. lol

[Truegiant]

sounds about right. i have heard 25% of accuracy and skill goes out the window in adriniline dump. I have a feeling these are VERY conservative figures for the vast majority of us.

i scored a 99.3% on the ga police qual, i wouldn't be surprised if that just plummeted if i had TrueGiant chasing me around yelling like a crazy flaming homosexual.

Thats why i have been taught to train accurate, cause you fist to hand sized group during training will open up to hand size minimum.


I can honestly say that some of the best training comes from some 6'5" monster running you around and screaming at you.

I can sit at a range and cream 300m targets with open sights on an m4 all day. You turn that into a buddy team live fire scenario where your wearing 60 lbs of gear and running/bounding between iterations and I can say that on some days I cannot hit shit. There are alot of impractical things that hollywood has convinced us of. I can promise you all these dudes on tv that are running with automatic weapons and hosing down bad guys is bullshit. You really must practice a crawl, walk, walk faster method. I will be the first to tell you I am not a master level pistol marksman. I have a hard time everytime I try and qual master hitting my groups just right. Alot of people tell me its because everytime I go I try and do it with my 4" 1911's because I have sold all my 5" guns. Sight radius/focal length etc.. blah blah blah.. I can honestly say that I still after probably close to 40k rounds of .45 have troubles. Any person who is honest and shoots for either recreation or sport that can admit there flaws is one step above the guy who thinks he is perfect.

Each person/trainer/teacher/whatever has there own drills. Some work some dont. The person that can adapt a drill to help someone who is having problems is a good teacher. I took a class with an old gentlemen in texas (retired CAG guy) who was prlly the best instructor I have ever met. He ran me through some drills that I thought were pointless and I was wasting ammo until I realized just what he was doing.

Enough of my ranting. Weapons are tools.

[Truegiant]

i like that

*paints sights black*

dry erase marker. so you can make them white again.

[Truegiant]

i suck man. the more you learn, the more you realize how bad you suck. but with that said i would love to meet up, and dump the very little i know into your brain.

I am down for shooting, i really want to find a good place to setup outside, with the field to ourselves and do some moving drills and other dynamic training.

i have been trying to schedule a session with john (truegaint) for a year now, but i think my lack of tits greatly effects my chances of this 'session' ever happening. lol

ok cockfag lets get something straight . I have told you to bring your skinny bimmer driving (prlly pink shirt wearing) ass down here so we can blow shit up. I am pretty sure you have not hoped in the car and done that yet so quite your crying about having sips (sand in pussy syndrome - what we call bitching in iraq) buy some vagisil to take the swelling out of your pussy and make it happen.

was that easy enough for you. Now you should feel like one of my privates at work. haha

[Truegiant]

danny i would love to session with you.


that suites you both very well.. haahaa

[Danny]

I can honestly say that some of the best training comes from some 6'5" monster running you around and screaming at you.

I can sit at a range and cream 300m targets with open sights on an m4 all day. You turn that into a buddy team live fire scenario where your wearing 60 lbs of gear and running/bounding between iterations and I can say that on some days I cannot hit shit. There are alot of impractical things that hollywood has convinced us of. I can promise you all these dudes on tv that are running with automatic weapons and hosing down bad guys is bullshit. You really must practice a crawl, walk, walk faster method. I will be the first to tell you I am not a master level pistol marksman. I have a hard time everytime I try and qual master hitting my groups just right. Alot of people tell me its because everytime I go I try and do it with my 4" 1911's because I have sold all my 5" guns. Sight radius/focal length etc.. blah blah blah.. I can honestly say that I still after probably close to 40k rounds of .45 have troubles. Any person who is honest and shoots for either recreation or sport that can admit there flaws is one step above the guy who thinks he is perfect.

Each person/trainer/teacher/whatever has there own drills. Some work some dont. The person that can adapt a drill to help someone who is having problems is a good teacher. I took a class with an old gentlemen in texas (retired CAG guy) who was prlly the best instructor I have ever met. He ran me through some drills that I thought were pointless and I was wasting ammo until I realized just what he was doing.

Enough of my ranting. Weapons are tools.

an example of that (at a basic level). I have done drills where you face down range tool holstered. have a person stand about 20ft from you, off to your right of left. When you see them start running at you in your peripheral vision, you clear leather and fire as many shots as possible into the target. The guy running then hits/slaps/bumps you as he runs by. Although not a lot of stress, it does add a touch of pressure and realism.

good instructors are hard to come by and are very expensive. and i agree, its adapting the drill to counter you weaknesses is the trick. allthough at a basic level i tend to think any drill is better than no drill.

and yes, admitting you flaws is first and formost. I still kick myself all the time for jerking the shit out of the trigger. You know your starting to learn and evolve when you start catching mistakes BEFORE you make them. Trigger press for example, you can feel yourself press it incorrectly, you then let off and start over and it all happens in a fraction of a second.

[Truegiant]

Danny, I still love you..

[Danny]

ok fuckstick i need dates. your the one always bitch how busy you are. and no you cant see my privates, wtf!

[Truegiant]

Privates, I.E. - Enlisted soldier in the rank of E1-E3 (private, private 2nd class, private first class)

PRIVATE - Dumb fucktard who makes excuses for everything.

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

lol not like that

[Danny]

Privates, I.E. - Enlisted soldier in the rank of E1-E3 (private, private 2nd class, private first class)

PRIVATE - Dumb fucktard who makes excuses for everything.


thanks for the clarification, i had no ideaaaa :rolleyes:

man we are crappin this thread up.. haha

[Truegiant]

yep.. oh well. There has been no bashing yet so i guess were not gunna piss off the mmods.

i am off to bed. pt at 0600 and another long day in class.

there must be gun porn in this thread by the time i get off of work tomorrow or i vote


BAN!

[Truegiant]

i am hoping for page three

[Truegiant]

oh well. no page three owning tonight.

[Danny]

have fun at Pt brother.

ps. the mods dont visit this section of IA. this section of IA has the most peaceful and informative debates. we dont need no stinkin mods! haha

[Danny]

three more after this will pwn page three dee dee dee

[Truegiant]

whateva hoe bag. No mods FTW

[DamnDisLaOsBoY]

lol longest post with the same 3 people??

[haybuddyy]

Sounds like alot of fun.