The idea of Equality is now referred to as "Socialism"

[tony]

So whenever you hear the word "Socialist" or "Socialism" take a second and really analyze the situation at hand. Resources being used to create equal opportunities and equal rights across the board is now being called Socialism. Programs to help those who may live right around that poverty line, remember professions like being a Firefighter or a Teacher doesn't exactly provide a great standard of living.

Definition of Socialism - a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.

Nobody is proposing taking away private property or government ownership of anything, but when you fail to educate yourself or listen to both sides you wind up judging the other side rather than understanding.

Anyone in history who has taken a strong stand on equal rights faced harsh opposition.. think about that. When someone throws something out there as Socialist I tend to wonder does this person really oppose the policy, or are they concerned about the preservation of the position they are in and see any kind of change as a threat to their way of life. The more I read and understand.. the more it makes sense.

So I didn't post this to argue because there is no argument. Those who are scared will disagree with anything that challenges their train of thought anyway. I just had to get it off of my chest.

[bu villain]

Agreed. People throw around the word "socialist" as a scare tactic. No one was complaining about us becoming a socialist country before even though our police, fire departments, roads, and many other everyday things are government owned and shared by the people. Those are all fine but if we have universal healthcare coverage we are one step away from mother Russia.

[BanginJimmy]

Tony, you have to be more clear about what this thread is about. If it is healthcare, then it is socialist. It DOES prevent people from making their own decisions on healthcare. It DOES prevent business from making their on decisions on healthcare.

If, as an individual, I decide I do not want health care, under the House plan, I am subject to a $2500/yr fine.

If, as a business owner, I cannot afford health care for my employees, I am subject to a fine equal to 8% of my payroll.

If, as a business owner, I do offer health coverage, that coverage is then taxed as income. Not only do I pay for the insurance, I would also have to pay the additional taxes. It would be cheaper for me to pay the fine than it would be to pay for health coverage. This alone would end the concept of private health insurance.

We wont even get into whether or not it will do anything more than bankrupt the country.


Do you think equality means bringing the top down to the level of those at the bottom, or those at the bottom up to those at the top?



Next, govt control of 2 auto makers and several banking institutions. Sounds to me like the "means of production are owned and controlled by the state".

This thread has been interesting. I only THOUGHT we are on the road to socialism, now I know we are already there.

EDIT:

Tony, do you believe in Affirmative Action?

[Vteckidd]

If you dont think Obama is anything but a socialist, you have some major reading to do.

[Total_Blender]

Any other everyday things are government owned and shared by the people. Those are all fine but if we have universal healthcare coverage we are one step away from mother Russia.

Mother Russia that hasn't been socialist since 1991? :D

Anyone else listening to republican Sen. Tom Coburn on the Senate floor right now?... He's been talking all day trying to waste time so they won't be able to vote on the health care bill untill after the break. Seems like thats all the GOP can do, rather than working on solutions to problems, they are just wasting time. He's talking about bridges in Florida and dams in Oklahoma right now. :crazy:

[Total_Blender]

If you dont think Obama is anything but a socialist, you have some major reading to do.

Feel free to not recommend any :screwy:

[Vteckidd]

Mother Russia that hasn't been socialist since 1991? :D

Anyone else listening to republican Sen. Tom Coburn on the Senate floor right now?... He's been talking all day trying to waste time so they won't be able to vote on the health care bill untill after the break. Seems like thats all the GOP can do, rather than working on solutions to problems, they are just wasting time. He's talking about bridges in Florida and dams in Oklahoma right now. :crazy:
The republicans (and the blue dog dems) dont want anything near what the DEMS are proposing right now.

Since they are vastly outnumbered, all they can do is talk and stall things out. they have tried to comproimise but the dems want what they want and wont budge, cause the Messiah says so

[BanginJimmy]

Mother Russia that hasn't been socialist since 1991? :D

Anyone else listening to republican Sen. Tom Coburn on the Senate floor right now?... He's been talking all day trying to waste time so they won't be able to vote on the health care bill untill after the break. Seems like thats all the GOP can do, rather than working on solutions to problems, they are just wasting time. He's talking about bridges in Florida and dams in Oklahoma right now. :crazy:

Considering both houses of congress can pass any bill they want without a single republican vote, wasting time until 2010 is a good strategy. Public support for socialized healthcare is falling apart and Obama knows it. The longer republicans can stall the more likely we are to avoid this crisis waiting to happen.

Also, if they wait until after the break, maybe 1 or 2 of them will take the time to actually read the bill, unlike they did with cap and trade or the pork bill.

[BanginJimmy]

Feel free to not recommend any :screwy:

Unwilling to read anything that doesnt agree with your Messiah's teachings?

[Total_Blender]

Unwilling to read anything that doesnt agree with your Messiah's teachings?

He said I need to do some reading, but didn't list any of the things I should be reading. If there are materials out there that would convince me that Obama is a socialist, when neither my readings of Marx, my studies of the history of (real) socialist countries and economies, and my study of Obama's congressional voting record have failed to convince me. If anything, the corporate welfare of the banking and auto bailouts is anything but socialist.

I would like to know some good sources of conservative prospective on the healthcare plan that are not right wing propaganda. Coburn (for the most part) has NOT been using his time to talk about healthcare.

[BanginJimmy]

He said I need to do some reading, but didn't list any of the things I should be reading.

I misunderstood you then.



If there are materials out there that would convince me that Obama is a socialist, when neither my readings of Marx, my studies of the history of (real) socialist countries and economies, and my study of Obama's congressional voting record have failed to convince me. If anything, the corporate welfare of the banking and auto bailouts is anything but socialist.

You might want to re-read them. Obama is proposing govt run healthcare, the govt has controlling interests in 2 automakers and several banks, he is proposing limiting salaries on executives of ALL businesses, not just the ones that were bailed out. The list of what isnt socialist is actually MUCH shorter than what is. NOTHING he has done to this point benefits capitalism, business owners, or anyone else that works hard and reaps the benefits because of it.




I would like to know some good sources of conservative prospective on the healthcare plan that are not right wing propaganda. Coburn (for the most part) has NOT been using his time to talk about healthcare.

Just read the bills and see how it would benefit you, or harm you as a business owner.

As far as where to look, I dont know. I try to use raw data and make my own decisions.

[Vteckidd]

Feel free to not recommend any :screwy:
Catastrophe by Dick Morris
COmmon Sense by Glenn Beck
An Inconvenient Book by Glenn Beck
Anything written by Peter Schiff

Beck is not a republican by any means, so i kinda like his outlook.

Morris was an advisor for the clintons, but his catastrophe book really outlines the numbers,problems,issues with Obamas stimulus, healthcare, and other issues changing this country.

Read it, tell me where anything he says is false or propaghanda

[tony]

You might want to re-read them. Obama is proposing govt run healthcare, the govt has controlling interests in 2 automakers and several banks, he is proposing limiting salaries on executives of ALL businesses, not just the ones that were bailed out. The list of what isnt socialist is actually MUCH shorter than what is. NOTHING he has done to this point benefits capitalism, business owners, or anyone else that works hard and reaps the benefits because of it.



Controlling interest of the automakers wasn't an Obama plan, see the previous administration for that.

I think plenty enough over the past 8 years have benefited business owners (big business to be exact) and not enough has benefited the consumers or every day worker, that is what he has been addressing.

[Frög]

Some of you need to read Karl Marx's book..

[tony]

Some of you need to read Karl Marx's book..

They think Marx is evil because his literature has been dwindled down to a talking point when in reality Marx wasn't too far off. Yes his ideals clashed with say.. Adam Smith but the two offset each other to add balance. Marx was against the Bureaucracy that is big business and a lot of what he warned of is happening, exploited workers.. big businesses who care more about profits than the people, and that is the trouble with the current healthcare system.

[Total_Blender]

They think Marx is evil because his literature has been dwindled down to a talking point when in reality Marx wasn't too far off. Yes his ideals clashed with say.. Adam Smith but the two offset each other to add balance. Marx was against the Bureaucracy that is big business and a lot of what he warned of is happening, exploited workers.. big businesses who care more about profits than the people, and that is the trouble with the current healthcare system.

A lot of people associate Marx/Marxism with Communism (and the failure thereof). Marxism is basically a system where the workers own the means of production collectively. The Communists differed from Marx because they sought to control all aspects of the society and had a single party system which persecuted dissenters.

The programs to help the banking and auto industries all have the goal of returning the Gov't stake in those industries to private ownership once they turn around. Whereas a Socialist program would have permanent gov't management as a goal. And I would much rather have that stake owned by the US Gov't than say... the Chinese Gov't.

[Total_Blender]

Catastrophe by Dick Morris
COmmon Sense by Glenn Beck
An Inconvenient Book by Glenn Beck
Anything written by Peter Schiff


Beck is just another propagandist. I read Dick Morris's column every now and then (my hometown paper carries it) I'm unimpressed, but I may check out his book, Schiff too.

[BanginJimmy]

Controlling interest of the automakers wasn't an Obama plan, see the previous administration for that.

You may be right about that, but the previous administration didnt fire the CEO. I dont like govt involved in business as it is, but that was WAY too far.


I think plenty enough over the past 8 years have benefited business owners (big business to be exact) and not enough has benefited the consumers or every day worker, that is what he has been addressing.

What do you want govt to do to benefit consumers or everyday workers? Govt run healthcare that will drive UP costs and lower the quality of care? More handouts to people that do not contribute in any fashion to the country? FAR higher utility costs? Massive job loss caused by increasing taxes on businesses?

The only thing I can think of that might be taken as a positive step for consumers would be the new credit card billing laws.

Look at Bush's economic record. After inheriting a recession from the dot com bubble bursting, he was in office for a HUGE economic surge that was mainly on the back of the housing bubble. That bubble burst and hit every sector of the economy bringing us to where we are now. Stimulus 1 followed by stimulus 2, both of which did nothing more than put us deeper in debt.

I am by no means giving republicans a pass either. They had control of both houses and completely screwed the pooch when it came to the CRA. They were warned about the consequences of it and didnt do a thing to stop it. This whole mess does have its deepest roots in that single piece of legislation that basicly forced banks to lower lending standards.

[BanginJimmy]

They think Marx is evil because his literature has been dwindled down to a talking point when in reality Marx wasn't too far off. Yes his ideals clashed with say.. Adam Smith but the two offset each other to add balance. Marx was against the Bureaucracy that is big business and a lot of what he warned of is happening, exploited workers.. big businesses who care more about profits than the people, and that is the trouble with the current healthcare system.


Marx also lived in a utopia in which people would still work hard even if they didnt benefit from it. We all know that is not reality though.


I would like to see a case from recent years of these exploited workers here in the US. No, minimum wage and no health coverage is not exploitation. Where are these workers that are working for less than say $5.00 an hour and get no breaks and work 18 hour days.

A company's job is to make a profit, period.

[preferredduck]

Controlling interest of the automakers wasn't an Obama plan, see the previous administration for that.

I think plenty enough over the past 8 years have benefited business owners (big business to be exact) and not enough has benefited the consumers or every day worker, that is what he has been addressing.

actually bush did not give a penny to the auto makers, he just wanted to throw money at the rothschild owned goldmans sachs.

[bu villain]

Catastrophe by Dick Morris
COmmon Sense by Glenn Beck
An Inconvenient Book by Glenn Beck
Anything written by Peter Schiff

Beck is not a republican by any means, so i kinda like his outlook.


Sorry for getting off topic but Glenn Beck lost all credibility when he said it would be good if America receives another major attack again from someone like Bin Laden so we will admit how vulnerable we are.

[Total_Blender]

Sorry for getting off topic but Glenn Beck lost all credibility when he said it would be good if America receives another major attack again from someone like Bin Laden so we will admit how vulnerable we are.

The phrase "lost all credibility" would imply that he had any credibility to begin with.:D

[Vteckidd]

Sorry for getting off topic but Glenn Beck lost all credibility when he said it would be good if America receives another major attack again from someone like Bin Laden so we will admit how vulnerable we are.

SOrry he is right. We have forgotten about 9/11 and the lessons we learned from it. Everyone was so quick to villify Bush and call him a war monger etc..

Becks point was that it will take another attack for us to realize how safe we were under Bush.

You can have it 2 ways

1) Be everyones friend (or try to be) and have weak national security (clinton)
2) Be proactive and dont take any shit from anyone and have people fear you (Bush)

Obama wants to be friends with everyone, look how that is turning out

[tony]

Sorry for getting off topic but Glenn Beck lost all credibility when he said it would be good if America receives another major attack again from someone like Bin Laden so we will admit how vulnerable we are.

I kind of take that personally, because by him saying that he doesn't have confidence in our Armed forces and our intelligence community. National Security isn't just the responsibility of the President, it is a joint effort and if he has to justify his point with the loss of innocent lives.. it only proves my point that those who are most critical are typically the ones furthest from the line of fire. Just amazing, anyone who has served would never wish for an attack on anyone let alone their own country.

[Vteckidd]

I kind of take that personally, because by him saying that he doesn't have confidence in our Armed forces and our intelligence community. National Security isn't just the responsibility of the President, it is a joint effort and if he has to justify his point with the loss of innocent lives.. it only proves my point that those who are most critical are typically the ones furthest from the line of fire. Just amazing, anyone who has served would never wish for an attack on anyone let alone their own country.

you guys should try reading and listening to the clip in the context that it was said.

The point was that we dont take our border security serious at all. Obama sent 1500 National Guard volunteers UNARMED. The point being made was that we would need another attack on our soil before we take our national security issues seriously again.

Obama thinks if we try to be friends with everyone the world will sing koombaya with us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HtSb7kwTFE

[Total_Blender]

SOrry he is right. We have forgotten about 9/11 and the lessons we learned from it. Everyone was so quick to villify Bush and call him a war monger etc..

Becks point was that it will take another attack for us to realize how safe we were under Bush.


But if there is another attack, would we have really been safe at all? I don't think much has changed regarding post 9/11 airport security since Obama has been president. I am not aware that he has issued any proclamations to the TSA that they can slack off. :screwy:

[Vteckidd]

But if there is another attack, would we have really been safe at all? I don't think much has changed regarding post 9/11 airport security since Obama has been president. I am not aware that he has issued any proclamations to the TSA that they can slack off. :screwy:
really?

I mean i wont blame the TSA on Obama, or BUsh. But there was a report a few months ago that came out that the TSA failed several inspections.

Now here is this report about our government buildings and how lax their security is

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Federal-buildings-vulnerable-to-attack_-report-says-7942482-50237612.html



My whole point was that for the most part Bush did keep us safe after 9/11. I think he sacrificed his political popularity to keep us safe. Whether he did it in the right way or not is yet to be seen. Ive always said that if Iraq turns out to be our ally and a strong one in the next 10-20 years then Bush will be vindicated.

Beck wasnt WISHING an attack on us. And he wasnt even the one that said it. His guest did! The point was it will take another serious attack for us to take our security serious again. I agree with that statement.

I mean we are letting NK do whatever it wants. Iran do whatever it wants. Obama has been on an apolagy tour since he got in. We arent serious about our borders. We arent serious about the illegal immigrants.

When will we take this stuff seriously?

[tony]

I'm just shaking my head at this, do you really think you would know how secure you are? Do you have to see police walking the streets to think you are secure? Look into OPSEC and what it means, trust me this country is more than prepared for NK and Al Qaeda but just how prepared we are the general public will never know because that information serves as a liability. None of this is about the President but rather Beck's (or his guest, or your) lack of confidence in this nations defense.

[Vteckidd]

Read the reports again and tell me if we are secure Tony. 20 mllion illegal immigrants don't lie

[Tracy]

I'm not even going to entertain this thread simply because I don't want to be copped out on when the going gets tough.

[BanginJimmy]

I kind of take that personally, because by him saying that he doesn't have confidence in our Armed forces and our intelligence community. National Security isn't just the responsibility of the President, it is a joint effort and if he has to justify his point with the loss of innocent lives.. it only proves my point that those who are most critical are typically the ones furthest from the line of fire. Just amazing, anyone who has served would never wish for an attack on anyone let alone their own country.

I know you are new to the military and dont know the Clinton years, but ask around to some of the people that do. I remember the last couple years Clinton was in office vividly. The US military was a laughing stock because of political restraints. I cant believe you think we are even slightly secure in this country when we have police for sale and a wide open border to our immediate south. If you want a great example of how secure we are, read the first hundred or so pages of Teeth of the Tiger by Tom Clancy.

Just like during the Clinton years, the intelligence communities are going to face drastic budget cuts and will be forced back to in fighting and hording info. They will all go back to the exact same practices that led to 9/11 and we will be lucky if the next attack is only as bad as 9/11. Nuclear waste is not at all hard to get your hands on and a half dozen small dirty bombs in NYC could cripple us financially for years.

[BanginJimmy]

I'm just shaking my head at this, do you really think you would know how secure you are? Do you have to see police walking the streets to think you are secure? Look into OPSEC and what it means, trust me this country is more than prepared for NK and Al Qaeda but just how prepared we are the general public will never know because that information serves as a liability. None of this is about the President but rather Beck's (or his guest, or your) lack of confidence in this nations defense.

You keep bringing up ho secure you think we are when we are not. The single greatest failing of Bush was the fact that he was never able to get anything passed that would secure the border with Mexico. Honestly, how long do you think it will be before terrorists make the correct connections in Mexico and find a way to get a couple hundred armed men into the country? What kind of casualty numbers do you think a dozen men with AK's could rack up in downtown Chicago at rush hour?

[tony]

I know you are new to the military and dont know the Clinton years, but ask around to some of the people that do. I remember the last couple years Clinton was in office vividly. The US military was a laughing stock because of political restraints. I cant believe you think we are even slightly secure in this country when we have police for sale and a wide open border to our immediate south. If you want a great example of how secure we are, read the first hundred or so pages of Teeth of the Tiger by Tom Clancy.

Just like during the Clinton years, the intelligence communities are going to face drastic budget cuts and will be forced back to in fighting and hording info. They will all go back to the exact same practices that led to 9/11 and we will be lucky if the next attack is only as bad as 9/11. Nuclear waste is not at all hard to get your hands on and a half dozen small dirty bombs in NYC could cripple us financially for years.

Far from new to the Military.. just late to join. Pre 9/11.. yeah joke, way different than it is now, I remember when almost anyone could get on base. Is our system perfect? By no means but who would fathom planes being flown into buildings anyway. Think about it, no country will ever be totally secure.. especially not a democratic one that prides itself on freedom and liberty. But as I said before I have faith in our Armed forces, I do come from a circle that is familiar with military (at least the AF side) and I can tell you for sure they aren't just sitting on their asses.

Call me wet behind the ears but I take the thought personally of fellow Airmen dying just because someone wants to prove a point.. thats plain stupid and nobody could convince me otherwise.. even if its a hypothetical.

[BanginJimmy]

Far from new to the Military.. just late to join. Pre 9/11.. yeah joke, way different than it is now, I remember when almost anyone could get on base. Is our system perfect? By no means but who would fathom planes being flown into buildings anyway. Think about it, no country will ever be totally secure.. especially not a democratic one that prides itself on freedom and liberty. But as I said before I have faith in our Armed forces, I do come from a circle that is familiar with military (at least the AF side) and I can tell you for sure they aren't just sitting on their asses.

No one said the intelligence agencies were sitting on their asses, they just wont share info in order to make themselves look better for the budget fights. It is all politics, just like it was before 9/11. People want to use hindsight about what was known to the intel agencies, but they dont recognize the fact that several different agencies had small pieces that separately meant nothing. It wasnt until they came together and shared info that the pieces fell into place.

You are right though, no country will ever be completely secure. Just like my truck will never be completely secure, yet I still lock my doors at night to dissuade the less intelligent and/or motivated from stealing it. The same thing needs to be done with our borders.






Call me wet behind the ears but I take the thought personally of fellow Airmen dying just because someone wants to prove a point.. thats plain stupid and nobody could convince me otherwise.. even if its a hypothetical.

Like it or not, that is now your job. Welcome to the military. Any time some country's leader wants to prove a point they start a war as a means of doing that.

[eraser4g63]

, remember professions like being a Firefighter or a Teacher doesn't exactly provide a great standard of living.

My Wife and I make a Great living almost 90k a year combined thank you very much. In all actuality most teachers and Fire Fighters ( Volunteers excluded) in metro ATL make at least 40k a year and once you leave metro Atlanta most departments are Volunteers and the smaller paid Depts. make in the mid 30s. but teachers still make decent money across the state ( since most counties are the same across the board with slight fluctuations.) Now do we , Public servants, make nearly the money we should for the conditions and stuff we put up with? No. Do I care for heath care or any program the " equalizes" the citizens? No. Communism and socialism will not work no matter what guise the Government uses to push it. The end result is that people will figure out that " Hell I don't have to give 100% because in the end there is no benefit to it, I can only give 10% cause in the end I can use gov't subsidies and health care to sustain myself if i get fired."

[bu villain]

My whole point was that for the most part Bush did keep us safe after 9/11. I think he sacrificed his political popularity to keep us safe. Whether he did it in the right way or not is yet to be seen. Ive always said that if Iraq turns out to be our ally and a strong one in the next 10-20 years then Bush will be vindicated.

Bush kept us safe? How would you even begin to prove that? Lack of attacks is not proof. I certainly didn't feel any safer because the CIA could secretly listen to my phone calls. And if Iraq turns out to be an ally, that means nothing to those of us who don't believe the ends justify the means. Why do you say how great it is to be allies with Iraq (worth thousands of American lives and many thousands of Iraqis) when a few sentences later you complain about Obama trying to be friendly with Iran (without anyone dying).


Beck wasnt WISHING an attack on us. And he wasnt even the one that said it. His guest did! The point was it will take another serious attack for us to take our security serious again. I agree with that statement.

Yes his guest said it and then he immediately said he feels the same way. Maybe Beck wasn't wishing it on us but when I heard his guest say it, my jaw dropped...I certainly wouldn't have said that I agreed. Beck should have demanded an explanation immediately if that were the case.

[BanginJimmy]

Bush kept us safe? How would you even begin to prove that? Lack of attacks is not proof.

That is like saying that increasing your savings is not proof that you are spending less money. We were attacked about once a year on average under Clinton, we were attacked just once under Bush. I wont even go into the fact that all of the terrorists were in the US before Bush was elected. I would say we are safer under Bush than we are under Clinton.




I certainly didn't feel any safer because the CIA could secretly listen to my phone calls.

Guess what, they could do that before the patriot Act. I'm also sorry to tell you that the CIA doesnt give a shit what you talk about.




And if Iraq turns out to be an ally, that means nothing to those of us who don't believe the ends justify the means. Why do you say how great it is to be allies with Iraq (worth thousands of American lives and many thousands of Iraqis) when a few sentences later you complain about Obama trying to be friendly with Iran (without anyone dying).[/quote]

Completely different circumstances. In Iraq we will actually be allies, Iran will simply be a country that celebrates the killing of American citizens.




Yes his guest said it and then he immediately said he feels the same way. Maybe Beck wasn't wishing it on us but when I heard his guest say it, my jaw dropped...I certainly wouldn't have said that I agreed. Beck should have demanded an explanation immediately if that were the case.

You might want to look at the Vice president also. He said the same basic thing during a debate. I also happen to agree with them. The US has already forgotten the lessons of 9/11 and it WILL take another attack on our soil before they get their acts together in Washington.

[Vteckidd]

BanginJimmy pretty much covered my response.

I mean BIden pretty much said the same thing in the debates about Obama being tested. He wouldnt be surprised if there was an attack.

[ahabion]

So whenever you hear the word "Socialist" or "Socialism" take a second and really analyze the situation at hand. Resources being used to create equal opportunities and equal rights across the board is now being called Socialism. Programs to help those who may live right around that poverty line, remember professions like being a Firefighter or a Teacher doesn't exactly provide a great standard of living.

Definition of Socialism - a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.



Why should resources be used to create equal opportunities and equal rights when it is already there to be had? Everyone has the ability to be equal across the board, why must it be given out?

When it becomes a mandate and resources are having to be taken from others and "given" to others, then yes that's socialism. Because in both instances, everyone is still equal... each person has equal opportunity to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Socialism will take that away because your life, your liberties, and your pursuit of happiness... government will own that and divvy it up to everyone else who didn't try as hard as you, in your life, in your liberty and in your pursuit of happiness.

Equality is there to be had, just not everyone is trying hard to get it.

[Jaimecbr900]

Why should resources be used to create equal opportunities and equal rights when it is already there to be had? Everyone has the ability to be equal across the board, why must it be given out?

When it becomes a mandate and resources are having to be taken from others and "given" to others, then yes that's socialism. Because in both instances, everyone is still equal... each person has equal opportunity to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Socialism will take that away because your life, your liberties, and your pursuit of happiness... government will own that and divvy it up to everyone else who didn't try as hard as you, in your life, in your liberty and in your pursuit of happiness.

Equality is there to be had, just not everyone is trying hard to get it.

And THERE it FINALLY is.....thank you very much.:goodjob:

All of these new great "changes" are about ONE thing and ONE thing only.....BIGGER GOV'T control over the majority of the population. More control= more votes= more power. It's a very easy equation to see IF and ONLY IF you don't buy into the "it's to be sure everyone has health insurance" and "it's to stimulate the economy" BS.

How is funding pork programs "stimulating" anything? How is bailing out failing businesses "stimulating" anything? How is taxing the true producers MORE than they already pay "stimulating" anything?

People, open your eyes. Stop buying into the propaganda. Are yall really that blind and trusting? Name one single program that the GOV'T has run as advertised, well, profitable, self supporting, people friendly, or remotely efficient???? Name one. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

Social Security: You pay your entire adult life into it, only to die without being able to collect any reasonable portion of it. You pay out of every single pay check, only to see it be squandered to people who never paid nor ever will pay a single penny into it. A program that has basically noone on watch to keep people from fleecing it into bankruptcy. A program that gives you a whopping $255 to "help" your family to bury you when you die. Add up how much you will likely pay INTO it and then add up how much you'll likely get out of it......is there a difference? WHO do you think is getting the difference????:rolleyes: You want the SAME Gov't that runs that to be in charge of your health benefits???? NOT ME. Yall are idiots if you do.

VA: Been to a VA hospital lately? Need I say more?

Medicaid: Designed to be an assistance for those that didn't have the money to take care of their own health care, yet is the poster child for what happens when Gov't totally clusters something up.


Why do you think the new and improved administration is pushing so hard to get a "vote" on this "Health care Bill" in such a hurry? Because they don't want the public to have time to read the 1500+ pages of pork and non-health care crapola that is in the mouse print in there. This bill is about one thing and one thing only; More Gov't=more power=more votes. THAT is it. There are several different and infinitely more efficient ways to help people with their health care IF that was the true concern. All of you that are buying into all the propaganda are just big suckers.

:2cents:

[tony]

See that is a problem, some of you think there is a level playing field. Do you think all women have the same opportunity as men to succeed? If so you're lying to yourself, there are plenty of glass ceilings for women in our society.

Look at the average income for households based on race and ethnicity, that large ass gap tells you there is not a level playing field. The unemployment rate, incarceration rates, all these figures will show you that there is a disproportionate number of minorities at the bottom of these lists. People still do not understand the difference between Muslim and Islam, or what they stand for.

If people were more willing to "give" when they make it taxes wouldn't be so big of a burden, but people spend more time trying to retain wealth rather than help the next person. Not everyone has the same opportunities in this world and those of you like the last two posters who live in this perfect world where there is no roadblocks for the lower class complain cause you don't understand that. Lower Class does not mean lazy, and to judge them as so shows that we still have a long way to go in this society.

[Vteckidd]

See that is a problem, some of you think there is a level playing field. Do you think all women have the same opportunity as men to succeed? If so you're lying to yourself, there are plenty of glass ceilings for women in our society.

Look at the average income for households based on race and ethnicity, that large ass gap tells you there is not a level playing field. The unemployment rate, incarceration rates, all these figures will show you that there is a disproportionate number of minorities at the bottom of these lists. People still do not understand the difference between Muslim and Islam, or what they stand for.

If people were more willing to "give" when they make it taxes wouldn't be so big of a burden, but people spend more time trying to retain wealth rather than help the next person. Not everyone has the same opportunities in this world and those of you like the last two posters who live in this perfect world where there is no roadblocks for the lower class complain cause you don't understand that. Lower Class does not mean lazy, and to judge them as so shows that we still have a long way to go in this society.


Tony i made $7/hr from 22-27. I made less than $20,000 a year. I made $14,000 a year TAKE HOME some years. I lived on my own, i had $500 in rent, $50 cell phone, untilities.

I was the DEFINITION OF POOR.

I have no college degree.

Now look at me, no one helped me out, no one gave me a chance or an opportunity. I went out and took it.

It didnt help me because i was white, my father has NOTHING to do with cars he wouldnt no the difference between an oil filter and a spark plug. We come from a long line of retired Lt. Col in the air force.

I made it, so can others. Their are road blocks, THAT IS LIFE. You either man up and get around them, or you let it defeat you. Now you are asking them to make the govt help you get around those road blocks because its not fair.

If anything women and minorities have a BETTER chance to get ahead with affirmative action and the current rules in the workplace. They get PREFERENTIAL treatment, not equal treatment.


The unemployment rate, incarceration rates, all these figures will show you that there is a disproportionate number of minorities at the bottom of these lists

READ THE BELL CURVE

[tony]

Tony i made $7/hr from 22-27. I made less than $20,000 a year. I made $14,000 a year TAKE HOME some years. I lived on my own, i had $500 in rent, $50 cell phone, untilities.

I was the DEFINITION OF POOR.

I have no college degree.

Now look at me, no one helped me out, no one gave me a chance or an opportunity. I went out and took it.

It didnt help me because i was white, my father has NOTHING to do with cars he wouldnt no the difference between an oil filter and a spark plug. We come from a long line of retired Lt. Col in the air force.

I made it, so can others. Their are road blocks, THAT IS LIFE. You either man up and get around them, or you let it defeat you. Now you are asking them to make the govt help you get around those road blocks because its not fair.

If anything women and minorities have a BETTER chance to get ahead with affirmative action and the current rules in the workplace. They get PREFERENTIAL treatment, not equal treatment.


READ THE BELL CURVE

I didn't ask for Government help, I asked for awareness. I got to where I am because of networking, someone was in a position to help me and I made the most of it, but some of the roadblocks I faced were unnecessary because they were only because of my race. Substancial roadblocks are fine, they build character but to dismiss discrimination as a "roadblock and get over it," never. Anyone who is willing to listen I'll let it be known that there are injustices out there that stand as roadblocks that others don't have to deal with because they are not a minority, this is how it was explained to me, this is how I will explain it to my son and so on.

[Vteckidd]

I didn't ask for Government help, I asked for awareness. I got to where I am because of networking, someone was in a position to help me and I made the most of it, but some of the roadblocks I faced were unnecessary because they were only because of my race. Substancial roadblocks are fine, they build character but to dismiss discrimination as a "roadblock and get over it," never. Anyone who is willing to listen I'll let it be known that there are injustices out there that stand as roadblocks that others don't have to deal with because they are not a minority, this is how it was explained to me, this is how I will explain it to my son and so on.

Yeah but you arent talking about racial raodblocks. If you cant get a job or a promotion because you are black, then thats one thing.

You arent talking about that though. SO we should pay more in taxes to help people that are racially having a hard time?

Is that what you are saying?

NO, you are saying that the top percent needs to give more to help the bottom percent.

[ahabion]

Yeah but you arent talking about racial raodblocks. If you cant get a job or a promotion because you are black, then thats one thing.

You arent talking about that though. SO we should pay more in taxes to help people that are racially having a hard time?

Is that what you are saying?

NO, you are saying that the top percent needs to give more to help the bottom percent.

Agreed.

I'm an Asian male here in the South. I was passed up for certain benefits (teleworking/work at home) while working for a large insurance agency. Why? They say it was because of performance... wasn't getting enough leads to make management happy BUT, I had the highest closing sales percentage (88% average) on leads that I did qualify versus the company average of (14%). Now some folks had far far more leads that they qualified (as was one of the metrics requirements) where I would qualify about 20 a day, they were qualifying over 400 a week.

Just to get you a feel for where I was working. There was a total of 6 males working in my department out of about 60-70 workers. Of those 6, there was one white male, one asian male (me), and 4 black males. The remaining were female workers. ALL of my management up for 3 levels in management were female. Of the 7 supervisors within my department 2 of them were white, 5 were black (including mine), and the department manager overseeing everything was a black female.

Now the claim was that I wasn't performing (even though I was closing sales) just not qualifying the leads like they wanted me to. But any good salesperson knows what really matters... closing the deal and making the sale.

Was I racially discriminated? Possibly.
Was I happy about it? No.
Was it right? I didn't think so.
What did I do? Roll with the punches and keep on working until it works.

You'll just need to learn to deal with it and keep moving, irregardless of circumstances, YOU are the one that needs to make the living and only YOU can change your circumstances. Life isn't fair and it's tough but you make life what you want it to be.

btw, I grew up on welfare and gov't subsidized housing and living in the projects... I know what it is to be poor and really knowing what real hunger pains are. Grew up eating rice and vegetables and canned foods. Was I dealt a fair deck of cards? YES. Because in light of my past that I've learned from... fairness does NOT mean equality. Fairness is you get what you are responsible for.

[ahabion]

I'll let it be known that there are injustices out there that stand as roadblocks that others don't have to deal with because they are not a minority, this is how it was explained to me, this is how I will explain it to my son and so on.

While you're at it, teach them to be bigger than those injustices and move on rather than sulk in it. This is how I will explain it to my daughter and my two sons and so on.

I plan on arming my kids and future generations with tools they can use... like knowledge and know-how to scale walls that WILL try to block them and keep them from their goals and aspirations. Arm them so they can climb mountains, don't cripple them.

[Vteckidd]

I was gonna say this yesterday too, does anyone think that the only racial bias out there is towards African Americans?

I mean hell we put Asians in detention camps during WWII. We committed a ton of atrocities against the Native Americans. There was severe backlash against the Muslim community after 9/11. Look how much we make fun of Paki/Indian people.

I mean how come all those groups of people have somehow found a way to move forward despite the "racial injustices" or the bias against their religion/culture?

Why is it the only thing that gets attention is this Black racial injustice notion?

[AirMax95]

I was gonna say this yesterday too, does anyone think that the only racial bias out there is towards African Americans?

I mean hell we put Asians in detention camps during WWII. We committed a ton of atrocities against the Native Americans. There was severe backlash against the Muslim community after 9/11. Look how much we make fun of Paki/Indian people.

I mean how come all those groups of people have somehow found a way to move forward despite the "racial injustices" or the bias against their religion/culture?

Why is it the only thing that gets attention is this Black racial injustice notion?

Slavery started in America before the 1700s. Native Americans were virtually wiped out, now they have land reservations. Muslims in America are punished as a whole due to their bad apples (which is due to our close minded society). Paki/Indian people chose to come to America and have a very different outlook on life. They look forward to much more, and many do not like the "poking of fun" at thier accent and ways of life.

They found a way to overcome their racial injusties because their entire race was not subjected to near as much torment as blacks did (Excuse no, fact, yes). Through all the pain, we have developed a TOTALLY different outlook on America. Having decisions made for you, being told you are not a man (later, part of a man :screwy: ), having your family torn apart, women raped, children missing, etc. Marinate on that and tell me how it sounds. The Jewish people can relate, but I am not sure others can. If you slightly agree with even the simplest of psychologist, you can agree that there is a mental ceiling that continually has to be broken after a person has been subjected to such things. Now, picture that with a complete race. The trickle down effect is a bitch.

The Black racial injustice gets the most attention because it was conditionally dealt with. By that I mean the blacks were granted rights and equality because we fought for them. Things minimally changed because a white person of power felt what was going on was wrong. There is also a flipside to the portrayl, the negativity hides from society the blacks that have uplifted and moved on. Shows like Black in America (the positive side) is very beneficial. I think Americans that viewed it see a brighter picture.

There is a series of essays written by W.E.B. Dubois that speaks of the Talented 10th, and how blacks can repair the structure of our race in America.


Ok, I will shut up now because I do not like politics......this thread reeks of it, lol.

[Vteckidd]

Slavery started in America before the 1700s. Native Americans were virtually wiped out, now they have land reservations. Muslims in America are punished as a whole due to their bad apples (which is due to our close minded society). Paki/Indian people chose to come to America and have a very different outlook on life. They look forward to much more, and many do not like the "poking of fun" at thier accent and ways of life.

They found a way to overcome their racial injusties because their entire race was not subjected to near as much torment as blacks did (Excuse no, fact, yes). Through all the pain, we have developed a TOTALLY different outlook on America. Having decisions made for you, being told you are not a man (later, part of a man :screwy: ), having your family torn apart, women raped, children missing, etc. Marinate on that and tell me how it sounds. The Jewish people can relate, but I am not sure others can. If you slightly agree with even the simplest of psychologist, you can agree that there is a mental ceiling that continually has to be broken after a person has been subjected to such things. Now, picture that with a complete race. The trickle down effect is a bitch.

The Black racial injustice gets the most attention because it was conditionally dealt with. By that I mean the blacks were granted rights and equality because we fought for them. Things minimally changed because a white person of power felt what was going on was wrong. There is also a flipside to the portrayl, the negativity hides from society the blacks that have uplifted and moved on. Shows like Black in America (the positive side) is very beneficial. I think Americans that viewed it see a brighter picture.

There is a series of essays written by W.E.B. Dubois that speaks of the Talented 10th, and how blacks can repair the structure of our race in America.


Ok, I will shut up now because I do not like politics......this thread reaks of it, lol.
I was being serious about my previous post haha, ill read your response when i get home

[AirMax95]

Don't play with my emotions...... :tongue1:

[ahabion]

Slavery started in America before the 1700s. Native Americans were virtually wiped out, now they have land reservations. Muslims in America are punished as a whole due to their bad apples (which is due to our close minded society). Paki/Indian people chose to come to America and have a very different outlook on life. They look forward to much more, and many do not like the "poking of fun" at thier accent and ways of life.

They found a way to overcome their racial injusties because their entire race was not subjected to near as much torment as blacks did...

I'm going to end that last line "that you know of."

Great article I found... was a good read. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/aug/17/globalisation.race

[bu villain]

That is like saying that increasing your savings is not proof that you are spending less money. We were attacked about once a year on average under Clinton, we were attacked just once under Bush. I wont even go into the fact that all of the terrorists were in the US before Bush was elected. I would say we are safer under Bush than we are under Clinton.

Actually increasing your saving is not proof you are spending less money. You could be making more money and spending the same. If I have a car accident in July while wearing a seatbelt and dont have an accident in august but don't wear my seatbelt, that doesn't mean it's safer not to wear a seatbelt.


Guess what, they could do that before the patriot Act. I'm also sorry to tell you that the CIA doesnt give a shit what you talk about.

Never said they did, only said that they could listen. My point was that I don't agree with giving up that kind of privacy for any reason, even if it could somehow remotely give me a better chance of not being killed in a terrorist attack.


Completely different circumstances. In Iraq we will actually be allies, Iran will simply be a country that celebrates the killing of American citizens.

So are you saying we should invade any country that doesn't like us and put in a more friendly government? Certainly you won't argue that Iraq was a bigger threat to us than Iran or North Korea.


You might want to look at the Vice president also. He said the same basic thing during a debate. I also happen to agree with them. The US has already forgotten the lessons of 9/11 and it WILL take another attack on our soil before they get their acts together in Washington.

I don't recall the Vice President saying anything of that sort but thats beside the point. Just because the VP says something doesn't make it right. Also, you only think we have forgotten the lessons of 9/11 because we don't all agree on what the lessons are.

[bu villain]

BanginJimmy pretty much covered my response.

I mean BIden pretty much said the same thing in the debates about Obama being tested. He wouldnt be surprised if there was an attack.

That's completely different from saying it would be a good thing and that America NEEDS it. Like I said before, I don't know what Beck's or his guests were thinking, I only know what they said.

[AirMax95]

I'm going to end that last line "that you know of."

Great article I found... was a good read. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/aug/17/globalisation.race

Good article, thanks.

My statment was slighty off. Replace "that you know of" with "in America".

[bu villain]

If anything women and minorities have a BETTER chance to get ahead with affirmative action and the current rules in the workplace. They get PREFERENTIAL treatment, not equal treatment.

Just out of curiosity, why aren't women and minorities represented more than whites in the upper echelons of society if this is the case? Do they just not want to be there or are they all just more lazy than white people? Btw, I don't think we should have affirmative action either. In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right.

[ahabion]

Just out of curiosity, why aren't women and minorities represented more than whites in the upper echelons of society if this is the case? Do they just not want to be there or are they all just more lazy than white people? Btw, I don't think we should have affirmative action either. In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right.

Women tend to drop out of the "corporate ladder" as they grow because they tend to focus more on family life and lifestyles. So as females have kids, their focus will most of the time shift from career orientation to family and domestic orientation. There are those women that do focus solely on their careers and I'm sure they get pretty high up there. Your ratios will differ because the selection of qualified males to females drop the higher up you go, being that women will drop out of candidacy because of domestic life.

But I'm not being ignorant that women don't have the glass ceiling in existence but I tend to think that women (as a whole) have just as much of a chance (regardless of what race they are) to be just as successful as your white male. Like all things, there will come a time... just need to keep on moving and keep pushing on.

[bu villain]

Agreed that family is a possible explanation, however this doesn't explain minority males lack of representation.

[AirMax95]

Agreed that family is a possible explanation, however this doesn't explain minority males lack of representation.

Reply coming soon..... :D

[BanginJimmy]

Agreed that family is a possible explanation, however this doesn't explain minority males lack of representation.


Maybe it has something to do with black males having the lowest HS graduation rate of any other demographic. Kinda hard to break into the upper echelons of society when you forgo an eduction in favor of prison time.

[Total_Blender]

Maybe it has something to do with black males having the lowest HS graduation rate of any other demographic.

And what are the reasons behind this, and what should be done to correct it?

You could say the schools in predominantly Black areas are underfunded... why are the schools underfunded?

Maybe its low tax revenues in the areas with bad schools. Ok, why are the tax revenues bad?

Low incomes in areas with low tax revenues. Why are incomes low in these areas?

Could have something to do with a lack of minorities with wealth and leadership opportunities in their own communities. :screwy:

A lot of these questions don't have simple/concrete answers. Poverty and lack of education opportunities are a self-perpetuating, vicious cycle. Where you have one you almost always have the other, and they feed off of each other. Add to that that not every case is the same... some people move up on the social mobility ladder, some people move down. The best we can do is to try to identify and work to correct the common factors that contribute to poverty and the lack of education opportunities.

[BanginJimmy]

And what are the reasons behind this, and what should be done to correct it?

You could say the schools in predominantly Black areas are underfunded... why are the schools underfunded?

Maybe its low tax revenues in the areas with bad schools. Ok, why are the tax revenues bad?

Low incomes in areas with low tax revenues. Why are incomes low in these areas?

Could have something to do with a lack of minorities with wealth and leadership opportunities in their own communities. :screwy:

A lot of these questions don't have simple/concrete answers. Poverty and lack of education opportunities are a self-perpetuating, vicious cycle. Where you have one you almost always have the other, and they feed off of each other. Add to that that not every case is the same... some people move up on the social mobility ladder, some people move down. The best we can do is to try to identify and work to correct the common factors that contribute to poverty and the lack of education opportunities.

half way through your post I thought I was going to have to make ill advised comments, but in the end I agree 100%.

I seriously doubt we will agree on a fix though. I believe welfare programs are the #1 contributing factor in generation after generation living in poverty.

I do find it very hard to put much blame on schools though. Funded or not, a school does no good if the students are not there.

[ahabion]

half way through your post I thought I was going to have to make ill advised comments, but in the end I agree 100%.

I seriously doubt we will agree on a fix though. I believe welfare programs are the #1 contributing factor in generation after generation living in poverty.

I do find it very hard to put much blame on schools though. Funded or not, a school does no good if the students are not there.

Agreed. Also, students NEED to know that the education is there for them. If they show up, apply themselves, they will earn their education and move on. Even if a very, very small percentage of teachers were not knowledgeable in certain things (or may not be paid that well), they still have more knowledge to pour into their students.

[Total_Blender]

I seriously doubt we will agree on a fix though. I believe welfare programs are the #1 contributing factor in generation after generation living in poverty.
.

I can understand this point of view, even if I don't completely agree with it. Any kind of social assistance that comes in the form of a handout also needs some kind of program designed to encourage people toward self sufficiance.

Instead of just having a gov't check, have a gov't check + a mandatory "life skills/job training class,". With a lot of people on social services, its not that they don't want to work, its that they don't have the most basic skills necessary to find a job, or they can't be reached by e-mail/telephone. At the jobs where I've been able to review the incoming employment apps, a lot of them were really, really bad. While filling out forms correctly isn't necessarily included in the skill set for "Operator: Deep Fry I", any good manager is going to be just a little selective about applications. :ninja:

[ahabion]

...a lot of them were really, really bad. While filling out forms correctly isn't necessarily included in the skill set for "Operator: Deep Fry I", any good manager is going to be just a little selective about applications. :ninja:

ROFL :lmfao:That's just funny right there.

[bu villain]

And what are the reasons behind this, and what should be done to correct it?

You could say the schools in predominantly Black areas are underfunded... why are the schools underfunded?

Maybe its low tax revenues in the areas with bad schools. Ok, why are the tax revenues bad?

Low incomes in areas with low tax revenues. Why are incomes low in these areas?

Could have something to do with a lack of minorities with wealth and leadership opportunities in their own communities. :screwy:

A lot of these questions don't have simple/concrete answers. Poverty and lack of education opportunities are a self-perpetuating, vicious cycle. Where you have one you almost always have the other, and they feed off of each other. Add to that that not every case is the same... some people move up on the social mobility ladder, some people move down. The best we can do is to try to identify and work to correct the common factors that contribute to poverty and the lack of education opportunities.

exactly. Of course a handout alone won't solve the problem but neither will allowing someone to be dead broke. It's nice to think that without welfare people would become really motivated, work hard, and pull themselves up but more than likely the rest of us are just gonna end up paying for them anyways in jail.