God, Science, and rum.

[Ocelot]

i was going to post this in the other thread (the world is 6000+ years old?) but it ended up being so long i would possibly have derailed the thread for good. so here is a new thread. a trip into my universe.

do keep in mind that I respect all beliefs and thoughts. these are my own. enjoy! :goodjob:


Sort of. To God there is no such thing as time. Think about it, we on Earth base time on 1 full rotation of the earth, then 1 year is a full rotation around the sun. Well God doesnt live on earth, so there is no such thing as time to him. Therefore its not like 1 day to God is 24 hours. To God there is no time, he has already seen the past, present and Future.
my theory on this: (alcohol induced posting ftw)

God? who is God?

the deity Christians refer to as God, Muslims, refer to as Allah, and so on for every denomination or sect of religion ever existed. the all knowing, all powerful deity.
so, then, if he has seen the past, present, and future, then this makes reference to time being a Möbius strip.not only that, but he has lived through all of it, and remained aware of its entirety. it is improbable for one entity to live so long, I will not rule out that it is impossible, as there are many creatures that have different life spans, from they mayfly living a mere 3 days to humans averaging 70-80years and to some birds and tortoise that live well into the 100's of years. I refer to him as living as per your reference to him not living on earth but elsewhere. so, to remain aware of the entire loop delves into why people experience "deja vous" which could be the selective remembrance of former lives lived through said Möbius strip. now, if the God of any religion created this time/Möbius strip, then after its creation, and one full cycle, God has become obsolete. the Möbius strip will continue on indefinitely without said deity. if the Gods purpose is to ensure that everything remains the same and only travels the path of the Möbius strip to its entirety then God could be considered the enslaver of the universe, locking us to living one life over and over again. now, "god" could also just be the catalyst to the Möbius strip. in which case there is no God at all, but a driving energy, which all humans of medeival and feudal times would consider divine/Godly, due to lack of a name for such a powerful force and lack of understanding of why things work the way they do, and why things happen the way they do.

wait... what?

now, due to the simplicity of human mind frame through stone age and up, they pass, through word of mouth/stories/books that a divine thing has happened, easily molded into a divine being, lack of understanding/names created the term "god" this can easily be represented through the earliest beliefs where there are multiple Gods, each representing a certain event or series of events, even emotions. Zeus the thunder God, Nemesis the Goddess of revenge, Ra the sun God, etc. a lack of understanding of how lightning worked = God. a lack of understanding of why the sun comes and goes = God. a lack of understanding of why when someone does something to upset you, you feel the need to avenge eye, for an eye = Gods influence. over time, (thousands of years apparently) of the majority of people believing in a divine being, it is now embedded in human nature. this makes it impossible for those descended from long family lines of believing in such a deity to believe they may be misled or wrong. literally impossible.

so... are they really wrong or misled?

no. if they believe in god, and god is actually an energy that allows for such "miraculous" things such as time to continue and life to be created, then no, they are not wrong for believing in their Deity. perhaps misled as to what it is their deity is comprised of, but who is to say that such and energy does not exist? the "big bang" was quite a bit of energy. stars produce energy... we "create" energy to power our homes. the same energy our body "creates" to power it self (see: nervous system, including the brain, musculo-skeletal system, cellular respiration). science has already shown all energies to be transferable to another form for other applications (thermal energy, electrical energy, kinetic energy). quite divine. this makes numerous types of life possible, regardless of probability, even mechanical life (see: quantum physics, transformers cartoon/comic/movie... lol ;)).

so what the eff are you man? a scientist/scientologist or Christian/Muslim/Buddhist? you some kind of atheist?

honestly? I'm a realist with my own ideals on how the universe works. I think religion is a chamois that is great for soaking up wallets, though i think the values are generally honorable and for the greater good. I don't feel there is a "God" or many "Gods", however I do not believe there are not certain things unexplainable to myself and others. for now. I do believe in powerful things at work, but do not believe they are of one entity. i do not believe man was created in the image of one powerful being. mans physiology is weak compared to other creatures of the world and to be considered created in the image of a being so powerful while all the same being physically weak is an insult to any God. the ant can lift 50 times its weight, and "god" can apparently make anything happen. humans on average can only lift, safely, their own body weight.

so i believe many things. religion is not one. Scientology is not one. God? in a sense, if God is not actually a being but a reference to an energy. science? yes, science is pretty hard core. how else would we get all the technology we have? God didn't help that's for sure.

so then it is true, science is the nemesis of religion! right?

hell no. science complements people's beliefs in God in every way. religious zealots insist god created ALL. scientists make attempts to explain what exactly happened to create all. it does not disprove God (an energy perhaps, or something capable of producing such energy) does not exist, it only looks into how things exist. people once thought humans existed because it was their divine right. the right to live, as per God. we now know that we exist because down to the cellular level the cells of our body work together to sustain life. we have not yet discovered how the mind works.

ha ha! science is flawed! God is why our brain works!

what gives us a conscience? instinct maybe. we have followed morals and religious values for so long that it again is built into us what is wrong and right. how do the different parts of the brain control all actions of your body so effortlessly? chemicals, electrical signals... but that is not enough. there is much more, and I am certain in time we will have a greater knowledge of how our brain works. I am sure which ever group or groups that research this can tell you much more and go fathoms deep into detail about what goes on inside your grape. but for now, I remain unknowledgeable on the matter.

I'm confused, do you believe in God or not?

I believe solely in myself. I believe in facts and am open to suggestion and theory, open to beliefs and disbeliefs.

well what about Demons and paranormal?

ah Demonology. i think there are no monstrous Demons, and that Demonism is really just a psychological state. and even then Demonic would simply mean anything that is opposite of values supported by religions.

ghosts/spirits? nah that's kinda silly. seriously think about that. i do not think ghosts exist. i do think it may be possible for a sort of... out of body experience but i really do not know much about this, i am however, interested in learning more.

vampires? hey who can blame them? I get hungry too. and if it came down to it and i had to in order to survive i would eat a human. do i think a "vampire" is real, cant go in the sun and hates garlic and crosses? ahahaha no. i think it is extended from a form of cannibalization. did you know that some warriors in medieval time would bash an opponents skull open to eat their adrenal glands? it gave them a rush in order to fight even more opponents, along with being completely demoralizing to the enemy who see's warriors eating the brains of his friends. they were considered vampires and their leader kept the bodies of defeated foes impaled upon spears along all roads leading to his territory. his name was Vlad. you may know him as Vlad the impaler. he who was considered to be the first "vampire".

werewolves? you are kidding.

anyways this has been a short trip into my wandering mind tonight. I hope you enjoyed, feel free to let me know how you feel on the matter, I always enjoy hearing what has to be said. keep it clean.

[Starrfire]

That was quite entertaining. I didn't feel like I wasted my time, and some very good points were addressed quite well.

[Ocelot]

really? that adds to another theory of mine...

the right amount of alcohol makes you better at certain things (especially video games)

[sport_122]

Heads up!!! In order to keep my reply length a little shorter I only quoted the underlined topic that preceded the paragraph that I was responding to. i am not trying to qoute your words, just only letting you know what section my thoughts derived from.



my theory on this: (alcohol induced posting ftw)

God? who is God?



First off, very very entertaining thread. A fun read and kinda make me wish I saw the rum induced trance that produced this.

I guess I'd like to comment on some things that I find interesting in your post.

The first section you mention God in eternity as a catalyst. Would you not expect for something to be catalyzed that said catalyst must be acting with intention? No matter how the chain runs, a catalyst always has an originator of intent. that is the whole point of something being spun into action/reaction, but my point is that it doesn't denote an energy, it denotes a conscience, something with thoughts, desires, intent, and a will.

I like the reference to a Mobius strip, but that is a little of a misuse of the evidence as the religious characteristics of God are demonstrated. In the monotheistic faiths you listed, time as we know it will cease to exist and certain things/people will transcend into eternity. so if we are to be consistent in discussing a transcendent God then we have to take note that by definition this God has specifically declared an end and a beginning to time as we know it. Therefor His obsoletion as stated in your POV would be impossible as that band is no longer a connected strip. It is a segment as time as we know it is not eternal, but is somehow on a different path than the eternal for the very purpose of having a definite beginning (creation) and a definite end (transcendency into the eternal). But this is a paradox in that we cannot understand because we have very little idea what is on the other side of the fence.


wait... what?

The human mind has never been simple. Our understanding and our knowledge of things has been on a different plane, but it is very clear through studying the egyptian, roman, greek, and chinese cultures, that ancient cultures had forms of technology, that we often are surprised to see. Low tech computing machines which could calculate date, time, distance and probability, the abacus could perform advanced algebra and calculus, potential electrical lighting systems, and then the mysteries of these cultures all lead us to the conclusion that they were not as under developed as we would believe based on our own presuppositions on what it means to be ancient.

Also, in the monotheistic faiths. We don't see God as a force or idea. They describe God as a talking, audible, sometimes physical, but definitely not a potential figment of an immagination. So based on their discriptions we cannot assume that their faith was placed on the indescribable, but on something that was much more powerful (not necessarily physical) and transcended their understandings.


so... are they really wrong or misled?
Theory of conservation of energy says that we do not "create" energy. We can harness it, alter it as you said, but the amount stays the same and does not change. With this said, we can reasonably look back billions of years and understand that we cannot fathom the amount of energy that spawned this universe, and with that spawning would come some sort of catalyst. Remember what we know about catalysts. They have origin and the catalyst that would have started all of this would have to be emensely powerful and transcendent beyond the timeline of our universe which we can also assume it will out last our universe as well. Which means that even though it is not possible to know right now, we can make a reasonable assumption that an eternity does exist. Or at least a timeline that is greater than all of the energy and mass that we have been unable to understand and know in our brief existence.


so what the eff are you man? a scientist/scientologist or Christian/Muslim/Buddhist? you some kind of atheist?
physiology had nothing to do with being created in the "image" of something. I can make a clay mold of myself (not really, but if I was skilled enough to do so) and that mold could be my image but not even alive. In the image of does not mean we were clones and should posses all of his stregths and knowledge. Just that somehow we have something in common with him. It may not be physical at all. it could be in spirit or in conscience. I am not sure if lifting rocks has anything to with it.

I mostly agree with your statements about science and religion. I hate that more christian believers feel the need to ignore our God given ability to look around our world and learn about it. to study it and come away knowing Him better than before. We can also use science to check our understanding of scripture and our motives with reasoning, but unfortunately too many of us don't do that.


I believe solely in myself. I believe in facts and am open to suggestion and theory, open to beliefs and disbeliefs.
please elaborate.


vampires, werewolves, demons, ghosts?
not dracula, not the wolfman, yes exorsist, and yes casper.

[Ocelot]

i'll keep it short (quote wise too)


First off, very very entertaining thread. A fun read and kinda make me wish I saw the rum induced trance that produced this.

thanks, it was a fun night haha


Would you not expect for something to be catalyzed that said catalyst must be acting with intention?

not in every instance, there are certain things that happen at random, however, if you were to bring up the arguement of, "well where did all the atoms and molecules come from then?" I would tell you i honestly do not know, but that some day we might figure it out. perhaps it has something to do with quantum physics? creating something from nothing.


I like the reference to a Mobius strip, but that is a little of a misuse of the evidence as the religious characteristics of God are demonstrated.

yes, certain sects believe there will be an end of time. but who is to say that is not another bastardization of the original texts created by man through mistake, or even through a purposeful deception in order to secure a stronger following? and in a Mobius strip yes, things end, everything ends. but it all starts over again. I donn't think you were looking at the strip as if it were representing time itself. if you make one out of paper and draw a line down part of it, as you trace the strip the line begins and ends, but eventually after traversing the entire strip you come across the line again.

if God really does have a beginning and end then it would not be a catalyst, but more of a movie director! :crazy:



The human mind has never been simple.

yes certain things from past cultures are unexplainable. it was either aztec or mayan who made very large patterns in hte earth that could only be seen clearly from the sky, which at the time we had no means of flight to see, and to create something as such is amazing. the scale is enormous. why did they? how did they? who knows, but no one ever said htey were dumb :)


Also, in the monotheistic faiths. We don't see God as a force or idea. They describe God as a talking, audible, sometimes physical, but definitely not a potential figment of an immagination

yes that is how your faiths work, but this was about how I felt on the matter. in no way are you wrong for feeling the way you do about your religion. it would not be possible for me to convince you otherwise. I guess I shared what i did for the sole purpose of making people think about other possibilities and how it compliments their current beliefs.


Just that somehow we have something in common with him. It may not be physical at all. it could be in spirit or in conscience. I am not sure if lifting rocks has anything to with it.

if it were the spirit and conscience that we were similar by then would we all be considered Demi-Gods? as far as we know, humans are the only ones with conscience.


I mostly agree with your statements about science and religion. I hate that more christian believers feel the need to ignore our God given ability to look around our world and learn about it.

it is sad how the most pious and righteous tend to shun science and technology. I feel they might learn much more detail about what went down to make things what they are rather than just say God made everything. Japanese robots made my car and t.v. and Japanese humans made those robots. and their mothers and fathers made all of them, not a God.


please elaborate.

I was just saying that I believe what i believe, and am always open to discuss other possibilities through the eyes of another.


vampires, werewolves, demons, ghosts?
not dracula, not the wolfman, yes exorsist, and yes casper.

hmm?

[quickdodge®]

ghosts/spirits? nah that's kinda silly. seriously think about that. i do not think ghosts exist.

Why is that silly? Later, QD.

[Ocelot]

i guess because i have never seen one or even felt one. spirits maybe, but definately not ghosts.

[quickdodge®]

Hmmmm. They're here. Until last year's loss, I had gobs of my proof of it. Been a "hunter" for the last eight years. Later, QD.

[RL...]

This has been perhaps the most well thought out, well stated posts on this forum, especially in this section!

I agree 100% with just about everything he said

[RL...]

Why is that silly? Later, QD.


Why is your face silly? Exactly, no one knows. GTFO you redneck truck driver.

[Ocelot]

Hmmmm. They're here. Until last year's loss, I had gobs of my proof of it. Been a "hunter" for the last eight years. Later, QD.

lol wait what? care to share?

[quickdodge®]

lol wait what? care to share?

I've been searching for "the beyond" for eight years now, running into nine. Got quite a bit of evidence in most of the cemeteries around Conyers and McDonough. Spent the night in a couple of Civil War museums/houses in Jonesboro, GA. Even the city officials on St. Simons Island allows me onto the grounds of the state parks and facilities for over night hunts. Christ Church down there and Fort Fredrica. But I've got several videos and a lot of audio. Unfortunately all but a couple of examples have been lost on a crashed hard drive before I could make back ups. I'll upload the ones I have still and post them here in just a few. Later, QD.

[Ocelot]

sounds like a fun time, maybe i could tag along next time and you can show me how its done!

[sport_122]

I've been searching for "the beyond" for eight years now, running into nine. Got quite a bit of evidence in most of the cemeteries around Conyers and McDonough. Spent the night in a couple of Civil War museums/houses in Jonesboro, GA. Even the city officials on St. Simons Island allows me onto the grounds of the state parks and facilities for over night hunts. Christ Church down there and Fort Fredrica. But I've got several videos and a lot of audio. Unfortunately all but a couple of examples have been lost on a crashed hard drive before I could make back ups. I'll upload the ones I have still and post them here in just a few. Later, QD.

FYI there is a scientist that did a study in Arizona. Also, this guy is more than likely pretty easy to get an audience with if you wanted to interview him. Most college professors are more than willing to discuss their findings.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-01/medium.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Schwartz

There is an entire book, but I haven't read it yet, but read this article. I think this has been done by other scientists as well with similar results.

If fact I would challenge anyone who thinks we die and that's it to check this out. This is a lab experiment that shows very interesting results based off of the psychic phenomenon. This is done by a Harvard Doctorate at the University of Arizona. Basically, this guy has got his ducks in order and has documented some interesting things.


if it were the spirit and conscience that we were similar by then would we all be considered Demi-Gods? as far as we know, humans are the only ones with conscience.

I wouldn't say so. I say this because if we were not created, based on my world view, then we could not be men(human) and we would have been in the very bloodline of something or someone transcendent. There would have been no human for us to get that side of who we are unless that human was first created.

I also don't know if I would say we are the only ones with conscience. We see animals doing things (dogs, dolphins, chimps) etc all doing things that are abnormal as far as showing an emotional attachment to us.

[Ocelot]

I also don't know if I would say we are the only ones with conscience. We see animals doing things (dogs, dolphins, chimps) etc all doing things that are abnormal as far as showing an emotional attachment to us.

my explanation of this so far:
http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/17.gif

[sport_122]

my explanation of this so far:
http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/17.gif


you are a funny man.

[Ocelot]

thank you.

[RL...]

lol