Religion: Christianity in the Spotlight...

[WhiteAccord]

Christianity is nothing more of a scam. Anyone agree? Disagree?
Wonder why I pose such claim? Just ask...

[BanginJimmy]

just to stir up further controversy why dont you explain.

[man]

Disagree 100%, I really would love to see this.

You probably also still believe Bush was responsible for 911 too...

[mocha latte cupcake]

~taking a front row seat and pulling out a note pad~

[Mchnhead2k5]

passes the popcorn to PUREjdm and cracks open a Dew.

[AirMax95]

In for the festivities.

[99hatch]

Im eager to hear this, but why must there be a new Christianity bashing thread everyday. You know Christians dont go around posting, things bashing whatever it is when you believe in. "When you die, nothing happens is a scam"

[mocha latte cupcake]

because chrisitianity is the only religion people can bash on and there is no public out cry like its racism or insensitive to a group of people. bashing on chrisitianity is a just plain sad cause people think our beliefs are wrong... no one forces chrisitianity on anyone, its a choice.

[Starrfire]

Christianity is not a choice for millions of children. They just grow up believing in that shit just like rednecks parents grow up listening to Country music. And just as retarded. I myself am an Agnostic, And refuse all organized religion for it is man made. Some god didn't come make this religion and make everyone follow it, or even tell anyone about it. Since no proof can be raised about religion, no matter how hard I try to prove or disprove it, the FACT is that you simply can't. Hate is a strong word but i don't like either side of the fence. I really do hate being bantered by religious numbskulls about joining their damn church. So to both sides of this un winnable arguement, good luck because no matter how hard you believe in something, it doesn't mean it is true.

[Mchnhead2k5]

I'm kinda with starfire on this one. There's numerous Christian groups that go to SriLanka, India, all over the globe that try to help out poor/less than fortunate people BUT why do they have to go over there and convert them in the process? I'm sure if those kids don't want to convert/don't like Christianity or religion at all, they probably get treated differently.

[JDMEK18]

I disagree! and i say to you... Prove that Christ is not real.

[afwfjustin]

Christianity is not a choice for millions of children. They just grow up believing in that shit just like rednecks parents grow up listening to Country music. And just as retarded. I myself am an Agnostic, And refuse all organized religion for it is man made. Some god didn't come make this religion and make everyone follow it, or even tell anyone about it. Since no proof can be raised about religion, no matter how hard I try to prove or disprove it, the FACT is that you simply can't. Hate is a strong word but i don't like either side of the fence. I really do hate being bantered by religious numbskulls about joining their damn church. So to both sides of this un winnable arguement, good luck because no matter how hard you believe in something, it doesn't mean it is true.

agnostics don't have the balls to be atheist. The good Christian people are good people, but they're misguided in thinking there is a god. If there was a god, it sure as hell would not be the judeo-christian god that they believe in. It'd be some superficial force of energy and matter that has always been there and always will be there. Oh wait, that's exactly how things work except all of that is not CONSCIOUS of creating the universe. It just happened.

[afwfjustin]

I disagree! and i say to you... Prove that Christ is not real.

Nobody's saying that he wasn't real. We're just saying that the virgin Mary actually did get blasted with a human's semen that she had sex with and Jesus was born. Jesus was as real as you or me or my dog Floyd who is asleep on the couch. The difference is that he was batshit crazy and told a bunch of gullible people that did not have any technologies or intarnets and believe whatever the hell anybody told them that he was the son of god.

After awhile passed, a crazy bastard named Constantine was tripping balls on some killer acid and thought he saw a cross in the sky and forces everyone to be Christian, just like your parents forced you and everyone else to be.

People are sheep. They NEED to be able to hold onto something. They need to feel like the are part of something, and they cannot bear to think that their life is meaningless and that after they die, they lose consciousness and they won't know anything afterwards just as they didn't know anything before they were born. It's too bad people can't think for themselves and use their brain instead of having this "faith" and blindly follow something their entire life that probably (isn't) is not real. The truth of the matter is, you can be just as good, and do just as good things and not believe that stuff. You just have to have a strong mind and will to see through all the BS that's been fed to you your whole life.

[Starrfire]

I disagree! and i say to you... Prove that Christ is not real.

And I say Prove that he is...

Agnosticism, say maybe to god lol...

[RL...]

Nobody's saying that he wasn't real. We're just saying that the virgin Mary actually did get blasted with a human's semen that she had sex with and Jesus was born. Jesus was as real as you or me or my dog Floyd who is asleep on the couch. The difference is that he was batshit crazy and told a bunch of gullible people that did not have any technologies or intarnets and believe whatever the hell anybody told them that he was the son of god.

After awhile passed, a crazy bastard named Constantine was tripping balls on some killer acid and thought he saw a cross in the sky and forces everyone to be Christian, just like your parents forced you and everyone else to be.

People are sheep. They NEED to be able to hold onto something. They need to feel like the are part of something, and they cannot bear to think that their life is meaningless and that after they die, they lose consciousness and they won't know anything afterwards just as they didn't know anything before they were born. It's too bad people can't think for themselves and use their brain instead of having this "faith" and blindly follow something their entire life that probably (isn't) is not real. The truth of the matter is, you can be just as good, and do just as good things and not believe that stuff. You just have to have a strong mind and will to see through all the BS that's been fed to you your whole life.

This post if FULL OF WIN!!!!

[sport_122]

Nobody's saying that he wasn't real. We're just saying that the virgin Mary actually did get blasted with a human's semen that she had sex with and Jesus was born. Jesus was as real as you or me or my dog Floyd who is asleep on the couch. The difference is that he was batshit crazy and told a bunch of gullible people that did not have any technologies or intarnets and believe whatever the hell anybody told them that he was the son of god.

After awhile passed, a crazy bastard named Constantine was tripping balls on some killer acid and thought he saw a cross in the sky and forces everyone to be Christian, just like your parents forced you and everyone else to be.

People are sheep. They NEED to be able to hold onto something. They need to feel like the are part of something, and they cannot bear to think that their life is meaningless and that after they die, they lose consciousness and they won't know anything afterwards just as they didn't know anything before they were born. It's too bad people can't think for themselves and use their brain instead of having this "faith" and blindly follow something their entire life that probably (isn't) is not real. The truth of the matter is, you can be just as good, and do just as good things and not believe that stuff. You just have to have a strong mind and will to see through all the BS that's been fed to you your whole life.

interesting and entertaining perspective. I wonder where you draw the basis of your conclusions. Did you actually study this or is it from your history classes? Either way you too are subject to what someone wants you to think based on their perspective just like what you are saying about the Christians. You too only believe what you believe because someone else helped you get there, the only difference is who ever helped you, made you think that you got their independently. You didn't, how do I know, because your opinions are no different than the people who have been outwardly rejecting the idea of an eternal god for centuries. So where is YOUR originality?

that said, Why do you even come to the religion forum if you think it doesn't matter? If all that happens is you die and nothing else, and you believe that people can just be good, why do you care if some of those "good people" choose to define goodness different than you. based on what you just wrote, it doesn't matter to you, but that can't be true if you have such an aggressive view toward those who do live by a faith.

[RL...]

interesting and entertaining perspective. I wonder where you draw the basis of your conclusions. Did you actually study this or is it from your history classes? Either way you too are subject to what someone wants you to think based on their perspective just like what you are saying about the Christians. You too only believe what you believe because someone else helped you get there, the only difference is who ever helped you, made you think that you got their independently. You didn't, how do I know, because your opinions are no different than the people who have been outwardly rejecting the idea of an eternal god for centuries. So where is YOUR originality?

that said, Why do you even come to the religion forum if you think it doesn't matter? If all that happens is you die and nothing else, and you believe that people can just be good, why do you care if some of those "good people" choose to define goodness different than you. based on what you just wrote, it doesn't matter to you, but that can't be true if you have such an aggressive view toward those who do live by a faith.

This debate is not about who can come up with the most ORIGINAL theory. It is about incorporating some common sense into your ass. There is undoubtedly a higher power, whether it is a god, gods, or whether it's what we refer to as nature.

And when we die, nothing happens. Just like as we were before we were born. Nothing. We live to die, that's it. :cheers:

[sport_122]

Im eager to hear this, but why must there be a new Christianity bashing thread everyday. You know Christians dont go around posting, things bashing whatever it is when you believe in. "When you die, nothing happens is a scam"


because the people who say they don't care and don't believe in anything really do care and really do believe in something.

religion christian faith is so controversial because:
1. it challenges peoples ability to be in control. Pride makes us NOT want to admit that we are NOT in control of ourselves and our future. Even within numerous religions you see sects forming based on fundamental beliefs on "who is in control, who gets the credit, why, and what happens next". People do not want to be humbled. We want to be in control of our lives. And in America this is a much stronger principle to life because the very foundation of our nation is built on the individual and his ability to control his own destiny.

2. it makes people feel accountable. Even in this thread (and numerous others) the people who hate religion or Christianity specifically, make comments about being good. They are showing that there is something about the teachings or the principles of organized religion that is convicting to people to the point of where the justification process becomes an aggression toward the place where that conviction/or judgment comes from. Much like a person convicted of a crime lashes out at the jury or the judge in anger, but IF this is true, plausible deniability goes away because of those damn christians.

3. they really do believe in something. Often times its the argument against the weak minded person of faith. What is really happening is the people who are starting these threads are doing the very thing that they accuse people of faith of doing. They are entering into a dialogue where they are saying "your way is wrong. It is not good enough. we don't care, yet we are unable to hold our tongue...and so on" however the reality is that a person who doesn't care and doesn't believe in any of this would have no need to legitimize their stance through justification or attack of the ones who have the opposing view. A simple, I dont believe that would suffice. They could remain silent and be find with it, because they really didn't care how the crazy weak minded christian ran their life as long as they were good people.


and these are also reason that people want to fight the idea that there is a God. Because it upsets the ability to be "free" to do what we want.

I am still waiting to hear a really good argument for how all these principles of humanity don't show us that there is more to us than 70 years walking around on a ball of water and dirt that floats in a vacuum.

[sport_122]

We live to die, that's it. :cheers:


how do you know?

interesting way to test the "no life after death" theory. and its been repeated several times by other scientists with similar results.
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2893543/detail.html

I know of situations of people who have died and there were things that happened, that they did, that would suggest they were not just going through a blackout.

[RL...]

because the people who say they don't care and don't believe in anything really do care and really do believe in something.

religion christian faith is so controversial because:
1. it challenges peoples ability to be in control. Pride makes us NOT want to admit that we are NOT in control of ourselves and our future. Even within numerous religions you see sects forming based on fundamental beliefs on "who is in control, who gets the credit, why, and what happens next". People do not want to be humbled. We want to be in control of our lives. And in America this is a much stronger principle to life because the very foundation of our nation is built on the individual and his ability to control his own destiny.

2. it makes people feel accountable. Even in this thread (and numerous others) the people who hate religion or Christianity specifically, make comments about being good. They are showing that there is something about the teachings or the principles of organized religion that is convicting to people to the point of where the justification process becomes an aggression toward the place where that conviction/or judgment comes from. Much like a person convicted of a crime lashes out at the jury or the judge in anger, but IF this is true, plausible deniability goes away because of those damn christians.

3. they really do believe in something. Often times its the argument against the weak minded person of faith. What is really happening is the people who are starting these threads are doing the very thing that they accuse people of faith of doing. They are entering into a dialogue where they are saying "your way is wrong. It is not good enough. we don't care, yet we are unable to hold our tongue...and so on" however the reality is that a person who doesn't care and doesn't believe in any of this would have no need to legitimize their stance through justification or attack of the ones who have the opposing view. A simple, I dont believe that would suffice. They could remain silent and be find with it, because they really didn't care how the crazy weak minded christian ran their life as long as they were good people.


and these are also reason that people want to fight the idea that there is a God. Because it upsets the ability to be "free" to do what we want.

I am still waiting to hear a really good argument for how all these principles of humanity don't show us that there is more to us than 70 years walking around on a ball of water and dirt that floats in a vacuum.

1) Christianity implies that we are not in control of our destiny, but the fact is we are. We have free will, and shape our destiny with every choice we make.

2) that makes no sense. We are all accountable for our actions no matter what one believe in. GOD did not make you fat. GOD did not make you kill that person. Again, we have free will.

3) everyone believes SOMETHING. Whether that something is to not acknowledge god or religion or not, we all have a certain faith. Not all religious ppl are weak minded, just the majority. Much like how the majority population of the world is ignorant and dumb. The average person is very stupid, and is unable to think for themselves.

We are free. Whether you bleive in god or not, you must believe this lol. I mean even the bible says we have free will....sport...come on....you can't believe the stuff you say

[RL...]

how do you know?

interesting way to test the "no life after death" theory. and its been repeated several times by other scientists with similar results.
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2893543/detail.html

I know of situations of people who have died and there were things that happened, that they did, that would suggest they were not just going through a blackout.

If you "died" and came back to life, then you did not die. So therefore everything in that is invalid.

When one dies, you DO NOT COME BACK TO LIFE.

[81911SC]

It's amazing to see people post about things they only *think* they know.

[sport_122]

We are free. Whether you bleive in god or not, you must believe this lol. I mean even the bible says we have free will....sport...come on....you can't believe the stuff you say

I understand what you are getting at, but the topic of free will is a topic that is NOT universally agreed upon by christians based on the bible. Even the very word "free" has an extensive definition. I think I have told you my perspective on free will in a previous thread. but in brief: I don't believe limited options denotes free will.

So now I get all Matrixy. A persons experience is limited. The people you are around, the city or neighborhood you live in and all those things that shape who you are, limit you to NOT be free to do what ever whenever you want. You can only do those things in which you are exposed to and predisposed to as a part of your character. I believe the discussion on free will is about choices and knowledge and not about physical action.

The psychological control that is used on child soldiers in africa is along the same line. You pump an individual up with an illusion of power and then you confine their abilities to your guidelines. that individual is not free. There will is limited to the knowledge that you have given them. People have known about brainwashing and subliminal messaging for years and this is another example.

Your views on God and mine are products of these things. Which is why there are so many people who will die for faith, and there are so many people who laugh at them for doing so. as much as you would like to think its all about the individual, its not. Social sciences tell you that, psychologists tell you that and if your choices are a product of something other than you then how do you suppose it is free will?

I don't think its as simple as people want to try to make it. And if you believe that people are free to do what they want, then the question arises again, why do you continue to come to this thread to bash people for being "free"? Because somewhere in your mind you either don't want them to be or you think they are not because if it was okay with you there would be nothing to say.

BTW...maybe we should discuss this in a different thread so that this one stays on topic unless you guys feel this is on topic for this thread.

[Frög]

..

[_Christian_]

http://bitsandpieces.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/imageslogic.jpg

[hseries4]

I'll have a discussion with somebody who will approach the situation with an open mind as I vow to do the same, but I usually don't debate about certain things, especially religion... Everyone eventually wants to pull the proof card.

The concept of being religious is based upon a faithful devotion [to God in this situation] so you can't really prove anything in the first place. Science often uses records from the past and people just accept them. Often times they are proof just for the sake of them being able to be recreated, but there are often times situations (such as numerous ancient technologies that people can't figure out) that people still say must have happened because it was written down. Then the Bible comes along, and since somebody had to write it down, there lies the issue of validity. Just like the post above... People feed off of physical/tangible things that they can see, but if I tell you I'm feeling sick, you just have to believe me. I can't spontaneously throw up to prove it, but you can't prove that I'm not either. I know this, in some ways, opens up a completely different way of thinking, but it's the principle. I'll discuss things all day because, with some people, nobody will win a debate in religion.

That being said, I'm glad my God can't be proven; I'm glad that He can't be figured out, and I'm glad that He is ultimately in control. What kind of God would He be if I could figure Him out like my best friend, or I knew what He was going to do before He did it like my girlfriend? That's weak, son! His mind boggling principle is what makes Him God..

Anyway, last point and I'm done:
...Anybody who gets mad at the whole issue of religion being forced upon people need to chill. Of course you'll always have people being irrational about things, but kids that are brought up in Christianity aren't forced to believe in God. They are introduced to something and it's up to them to take it as it is and apply it if they want... Just about everyone could have sworn Santa was real, but you get older and you start to think for yourself. Even for the parents that say "you will go to church" can't make that person believe.. It's a choice. How are you going to be a grown man (or woman) and being forced by someone to believe something? It's just not going to happen. And for the comment made of the helping/converting in less fortunate countries, more often than not, the conversion happens just for the sake of them being introduced to something new. Nobody forces it upon them, but quite frankly, there aren't too many other people who are selfless enough to sacrifice their American life to live somewhere else to do it, so what do you expect when somebody of that influence enters their life?

I may post again.. I may not... I'm just the type of Christian who won't force anything upon you, won't condemn you, and won't disrespect your beliefs and, therefore, hate to have mine disrespected by being categorized with the hypocritical people that give everyone else a bad rep.

Dueces

[Starrfire]

You sure are positive your god is a HE. Tell me, how do you know this? Or is it because someone told you so?
Christianity does great things for a lot of people, but the religion itself is weaksos.

[DrivenMind]

interesting and entertaining perspective. I wonder where you draw the basis of your conclusions. Did you actually study this or is it from your history classes? Either way you too are subject to what someone wants you to think based on their perspective just like what you are saying about the Christians. You too only believe what you believe because someone else helped you get there, the only difference is who ever helped you, made you think that you got their independently. You didn't, how do I know, because your opinions are no different than the people who have been outwardly rejecting the idea of an eternal god for centuries. So where is YOUR originality?

that said, Why do you even come to the religion forum if you think it doesn't matter? If all that happens is you die and nothing else, and you believe that people can just be good, why do you care if some of those "good people" choose to define goodness different than you. based on what you just wrote, it doesn't matter to you, but that can't be true if you have such an aggressive view toward those who do live by a faith.

Ad hominem
False analogy.
Ad hominem.

Originality has nothing to do with whether or not a concept is logically sound. Period. You should reread that, just to make sure you understand that concept before this discussion continues any further.

And for those of you who dare utter something as absurd as "prove Jesus isn't the son of god" please understand that the burden of proof rests of those making extraordinary claims. Claiming that a man was born of a virgin, was simultaneously a man and god, performed miracles, rose from the dead ect ect. Are all extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence to back them up.

Your beliefs matter to the people who do not share them, because they are the systematic teaching, and commercialized embodiment of credulity. History has shown us time and time again that whenever people abandon their ability to think critically about their beliefs, no matter how culturally and socilly acceptable they are, they may become subject to all sorts of absurdities done in the name of faith.

Read the Qur'an, or look at the way fundamentalists interpret the Bible. These are pieces of literature written at the infancy of our species, before we had any working understanding of how the world works, that to this very day serve as the justification for the very worst and most cruel behavior human beings are capable of.

The notion that other people shouldn't care about your beliefs is only applicable, when your beliefs are kept private and do not effect the lives of others. I live in a state where beer is not sold on Sundays because some influential group of Christians thinks that the entity that created the universe probably has a vested interest in what day of the week human beings consume alcohol.

You may believe in whatever you want, but when I see the lawmakers who govern me too, making decisions (war on drugs anyone?) based on some misguided irrelevant moral fanaticism, to appeal to their "religious base", I have a problem with your religion, because the nonsense you believe is effecting my life. For that matter when I see a group of people motivated by that very same monotheistic credulity, flying airplanes into buildings, to reach a paradise that there is no evidence for I start to develop a larger annoyance with people believing shit that there is simply no proof for. When the president of my country comes out and declares that Islam is a "religion of peace" to appease the outraged morons who think their subjective belief system is under attack, I get even more annoyed.

[DrivenMind]

I'll have a discussion with somebody who will approach the situation with an open mind as I vow to do the same, but I usually don't debate about certain things, especially religion... Everyone eventually wants to pull the proof card.

The concept of being religious is based upon a faithful devotion [to God in this situation] so you can't really prove anything in the first place. Science often uses records from the past and people just accept them. Often times they are proof just for the sake of them being able to be recreated, but there are often times situations (such as numerous ancient technologies that people can't figure out) that people still say must have happened because it was written down. Then the Bible comes along, and since somebody had to write it down, there lies the issue of validity. Just like the post above... People feed off of physical/tangible things that they can see, but if I tell you I'm feeling sick, you just have to believe me. I can't spontaneously throw up to prove it, but you can't prove that I'm not either. I know this, in some ways, opens up a completely different way of thinking, but it's the principle. I'll discuss things all day because, with some people, nobody will win a debate in religion.

That being said, I'm glad my God can't be proven; I'm glad that He can't be figured out, and I'm glad that He is ultimately in control. What kind of God would He be if I could figure Him out like my best friend, or I knew what He was going to do before He did it like my girlfriend? That's weak, son! His mind boggling principle is what makes Him God..

Anyway, last point and I'm done:
...Anybody who gets mad at the whole issue of religion being forced upon people need to chill. Of course you'll always have people being irrational about things, but kids that are brought up in Christianity aren't forced to believe in God. They are introduced to something and it's up to them to take it as it is and apply it if they want... Just about everyone could have sworn Santa was real, but you get older and you start to think for yourself. Even for the parents that say "you will go to church" can't make that person believe.. It's a choice. How are you going to be a grown man (or woman) and being forced by someone to believe something? It's just not going to happen. And for the comment made of the helping/converting in less fortunate countries, more often than not, the conversion happens just for the sake of them being introduced to something new. Nobody forces it upon them, but quite frankly, there aren't too many other people who are selfless enough to sacrifice their American life to live somewhere else to do it, so what do you expect when somebody of that influence enters their life?

I may post again.. I may not... I'm just the type of Christian who won't force anything upon you, won't condemn you, and won't disrespect your beliefs and, therefore, hate to have mine disrespected by being categorized with the hypocritical people that give everyone else a bad rep.

Dueces

You are not being categorized with hypocrites, you are simply being subjected to the same criteria that determines the validity of everything else we perceive to be reality. So, and I say this will all due respect, please spare us the religious "hurt feelings" card. Your belief system is not above rational inquiry, or impervious to rational criticism.

If Christianity is not imposed, then why do we teach children, the most impressionable, and precious people in our society that they will burn in hell, and suffer eternal torment if they do not share their parents belief system. This is by it's very nature a passive aggressive threat, and is a very sick thing to subject a child to indeed.

"We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this world- as far as we can grasp it. And that is all. -Albert Einstein"

[Fuhrer]

You can't be asked to join. You must come to them(church ~ no matter what religion) on your own free will.
And yes I was raised Oct. 2001. I smart like that.


What you religious people need to do is STOP dancing. You all look stupid.
I'm violating oaths telling you this, but I don't really care anymore... it's all a downer so what's the fucking point?

Christianity as you all love to call it, are singularly the biggest structural pin which has held up modern society from the wastelands, within the history books of infinity... but they've also lost the plot along the way in various daily miniscule battles, and can be trusted no more than you could your relevant applicable Intelligence Agency.

I don't bother reading the truth these days... I write it. When it comes to christians I am the dog and they are the tail. Wag wag. They're controlled by me. They can't counter logical answers so they through the same horse-shit at me over and over again. Anyone who dares to prove me wrong, step forth. I have some time on my hands. Not the sorta time that you pimple popping cromags in a cone shaped cap have to monkey-pluck lice from each others back hair time, but time to fucking faceplant each of half-a chromosomed you into a mound of your own ignorance shat hypocracy. So come one come all and I will hand you your ass in a fucking sling and show you why it is me that will end what you scab eacting wretches do with unbeknownst glee and yet lackluster results. I am your teacher, prepare to be taught.


~ Dr. Penis
Fuck Religion. It needs to be destroyed... as in obliterated... wiped OUT!

PS: No knives were hurt in the crafting of this post.

[DrivenMind]

You can't be asked to join. You must come to them(church ~ no matter what religion) on your own free will.
And yes I was raised Oct. 2001. I smart like that.

Christianity as you all love to call it, are singularly the biggest structural pin which has held up modern society from the wastelands, within the history books of infinity...

Since children in most countries not able to drive until they are a approaching the age of maturity, they are more often than not brought to the churches by the people the love and respect the very most.

I do not for an instant believe that Christianity has held society from the wastelands. At any available opportunity religions strive to create divisions among people, on the basis of faith (imperceptible & unverifiable truths) alone, often subjecting their flock to more steadily abandon their rational faculties.

While I may agree that in some cases religion has done wonderful things for the structure, and overall coherence of modern society in general, I would not be sold bold as to dare assert that religion is solely responsible for the progress made by our people.

And who cares about the interpretive history books of infinity written by uneducated men, when on any clear night you may step outside, gaze into the heavens, and look back in time?

[Starrfire]

Strange to think that by looking at light, and seeing images in space light years away, that you see the past looking back at you. And that you see, might not even still be there.
Sorry, side thoughts.

[Fuhrer]

And who cares about the interpretive history books of infinity written by uneducated men, when on any clear night you may step outside, gaze into the heavens, and look back in time?

In their minds they were above the normal level of intellect. They created in world from stories that were heard for centuries but never put into such a carefully and thoughtout form that it would have an impact on society for generations. I'd say that they were pretty goddamn educated to pull the biggest troll in the history of man-kind.
Could people a few hundred years ago have been able to mimic them? I, the great Fuhrer, certainly doesn't think so.
In current time we gaze up at the heavens and see nothing but stars. We have no passion in astronomy like the good ol' days.
Sure we have astronomers to do that. Yet it's not like it was back then. I for one KNOW that religion serves no real purpose in life but to others it does. Let them die with their belief. If it makes life for them easier let them keep making a fool out of themselves. We should pop open a few budlights and sit back and enjoy their jester-act.


~ sum cun`T
Lookin' out for the loooo-ooo-ove.... big BIG looo-oooooo-oove...

[Fuhrer]

Strange to think that by looking at light, and seeing images in space light years away, that you see the past looking back at you. And that you see, might not even still be there.
Sorry, side thoughts.

Actually it's impossible to see the past.
We merely see what has happened. I can fart today and my fart's genetic compound could be detected millions on years in the future by futuristic high-tech microscopes. Weird how light-years are so... uncompromisable that we can't even concept that theory of looking back into the past when we look up at the stars.

The human mind is still evolving. We are still a primitive species.

~ Der Fuhrer
I also wasn't aware I had ever traveled outside Australia til last week. Side thought.

[Ocelot]

I disagree! and i say to you... Prove that Christ is not real.

people do not take time to prove the non-existence, only to prove existence.

"oh hey prove he isn't real"
"ok sure, i have no proof that he IS real, therefore, he is not."

it just doesn't work that way

[Starrfire]

Actually it's impossible to see the past.
We merely see what has happened. I can fart today and my fart's genetic compound could be detected millions on years in the future by futuristic high-tech microscopes. Weird how light-years are so... uncompromisable that we can't even concept that theory of looking back into the past when we look up at the stars.

The human mind is still evolving. We are still a primitive species.

~ Der Fuhrer
I also wasn't aware I had ever traveled outside Australia til last week. Side thought.

Well, maybe not as concrete as the past, but you are not seeing current images, and the images could have changed since what we actually see. I know it is impossible to see time.
-BTW, how did you like your trip to Australia? I've been there for a couple of weeks and to New Zeland for a week also. Quite a different place.

[Gwb]

If Christianity is not imposed, then why do we teach children, the most impressionable, and precious people in our society that they will burn in hell, and suffer eternal torment if they do not share their parents belief system. This is by it's very nature a passive aggressive threat, and is a very sick thing to subject a child to indeed.


When children become young adults, they can choose whatever religion they want to believe in or they can choose to believe in nothing at all.



Originality has nothing to do with whether or not a concept is logically sound. Period. You should reread that, just to make sure you understand that concept before this discussion continues any further.

Well it does. People come up with their own ideas because they disagree with the other ones available or because they are wrong.




And for those of you who dare utter something as absurd as "prove Jesus isn't the son of god" please understand that the burden of proof rests of those making extraordinary claims. Claiming that a man was born of a virgin, was simultaneously a man and god, performed miracles, rose from the dead ect ect. Are all extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence to back them up.

One of the strongest arguments for the accuracy of the Bible is its 100% accuracy in predicting the future. These future predictions are called “prophecies.” The Old Testament was written between approximately 1450 BC and 430 BC. During that time, many predictions of the future were recorded in the Bible by God’s prophets. Of the events that were to have taken place by now, every one happened just the way they predicted it would. No other “sacred writing” has such perfectly accurate predictions of the future


Your beliefs matter to the people who do not share them, because they are the systematic teaching, and commercialized embodiment of credulity. History has shown us time and time again that whenever people abandon their ability to think critically about their beliefs, no matter how culturally and socilly acceptable they are, they may become subject to all sorts of absurdities done in the name of faith.

No one is forcing you to worry about anyone's beliefs. There are laws in place that regulate the teachings of any religions in public schools.


The notion that other people shouldn't care about your beliefs is only applicable, when your beliefs are kept private and do not effect the lives of others. I live in a state where beer is not sold on Sundays because some influential group of Christians thinks that the entity that created the universe probably has a vested interest in what day of the week human beings consume alcohol.

Many people of any religion still support that law, mainly because it is tradition. No one is forcing you to live there. My suggestion is to move elsewhere or dispute the law.

[sport_122]

Ad hominem
False analogy.
Ad hominem.

Originality has nothing to do with whether or not a concept is logically sound. Period. You should reread that, just to make sure you understand that concept before this discussion continues any further.

And for those of you who dare utter something as absurd as "prove Jesus isn't the son of god" please understand that the burden of proof rests of those making extraordinary claims. Claiming that a man was born of a virgin, was simultaneously a man and god, performed miracles, rose from the dead ect ect. Are all extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence to back them up.

Your beliefs matter to the people who do not share them, because they are the systematic teaching, and commercialized embodiment of credulity. History has shown us time and time again that whenever people abandon their ability to think critically about their beliefs, no matter how culturally and socilly acceptable they are, they may become subject to all sorts of absurdities done in the name of faith.

Read the Qur'an, or look at the way fundamentalists interpret the Bible. These are pieces of literature written at the infancy of our species, before we had any working understanding of how the world works, that to this very day serve as the justification for the very worst and most cruel behavior human beings are capable of.

The notion that other people shouldn't care about your beliefs is only applicable, when your beliefs are kept private and do not effect the lives of others. I live in a state where beer is not sold on Sundays because some influential group of Christians thinks that the entity that created the universe probably has a vested interest in what day of the week human beings consume alcohol.

You may believe in whatever you want, but when I see the lawmakers who govern me too, making decisions (war on drugs anyone?) based on some misguided irrelevant moral fanaticism, to appeal to their "religious base", I have a problem with your religion, because the nonsense you believe is effecting my life. For that matter when I see a group of people motivated by that very same monotheistic credulity, flying airplanes into buildings, to reach a paradise that there is no evidence for I start to develop a larger annoyance with people believing shit that there is simply no proof for. When the president of my country comes out and declares that Islam is a "religion of peace" to appease the outraged morons who think their subjective belief system is under attack, I get even more annoyed.

You quote me in mockery and leave out the context of which my statements were written. I bow my hat to your "mastered skills of debating":thinking: by echoing the same arguments of a certain Christopher Hitchens. And the funny thing is you almost qoute him verbatim... Do you actually research the arguments he makes...(he doesn't make very many)...or do you just listen to his mocking and foolish banter (makes up 95% of his debates) and soak it up because you like his accent? Just curious. And originality matters a ton because without it religions become redundant and mindless, and positions like yours become the thing that fills the void that will be there if faith subsides. and if you are only saying what they say then how are you "free" as hitchens and dawkins would suggest. & you then are no different than me. We just believe in different things.

And these men are now making their theories off of observations without testable hypothesis. Hitchens and Dawkins have been doing this for years and it is considered bad science(for those of you who know anything about science other than the BS you slept through in high school). Its a smoke screen. To say that they have no evidence of God when they have done no work to make reasonable observations. When on the other hand the social and applied sciences provide observations which can lead to legitimate statements pointing to something transcendent. i.e. the moral compass, the infinite existence of knowledge, and a universal understanding of love. These things have no beginning of which we can place. I do not believe they start with christianity or any specific religion, bc I don't believe they start anywhere. I believe them to be universal/eternal.

Also, it is those same men who claim to ignore the existence of an eternal, with the belief that this universe is the product of a big bang, of which before there was supposed to be nothing. Again, BAD SCIENTIFIC PRACTICES. BTW. Neither Dawkins, Hitchens, hawkins, or any other atheist or scientist have been able to figure that out, they often dodge this question, I'd love to hear your POV.

Lastly, if you believe there is no God and that men are free to do as they please without justice then your complaints fall on deaf ears. You say it effects you but that is the world you ask for. In a world with laws and morals only based off of mans hedonistic desires, you have no justice or rights. Mainly because the morals of men change often. The rules would flip flop like a presidential candidate. the people who make bad laws based on their interpretation of science (subjective) which you hate are justified 'in your world view' to do so because there is no ground for your individual consideration. They don't have to make you happy because they only are committed to themselves. No transcendent morals or ethics means there are no transcendent rights. So you don't matter just as they don't matter.

The countless times that people have done bad things regardless of their faith or not don't matter. The good that people have done regardless of their faith or not doesn't matter. History doesn't matter. The only logic that matters is yours. the only rules that matter are yours. Community is no longer existent because people do not understand nor care about serving one another. The reason you can be offended or bothered is because you expect something else, you expect better...why and how can you?

Lets see...you would say what Hitchens says...sooo...men would do the right thing because they know that doing the right thing for some is necessary to preserve themselves. The world does not change under the atheists flag because the problem is not the institutions its the individuals. Because right now, some terrorists think they are doing the right thing by targeting you and under the atheists flag it would just be someone else eradicating group x to preserve group a. But under your world view, nobody has the right to call them wrong. Because there is no universal moral code because the moral code is only what men of the time/location make it.

My point....you act like dropping religious faith from the face of the earth would make it better. You make a false attribution to act as if religions have been the cause of so much strife on this planet and you remove the obvious responsibility that goes to men for the choices they make.

You make a ridiculous generalization in stating that these books of faith were written in the "infancy of our civilization". As if our civilizations maturity is dependent upon scientific development and even the adjective you use"infancy" is subjective. As if you as an individual are less mature than another individual because he knows more about science than you or he has better technology (a newer cell phone):dunno: Which is absurd and makes me think you have never read about the ancient technology of the Aztecs, Egyptians, Romans or Chinese.

And you should really go learn something about how the Bible came to be before you assume it is one book written by a few people. There is MUCH MUCH more to it that is historically (secular history) documented.

and about me...
I believe that there has to be a balance. I believe that God gave us science, reason, the books that make up the Bible, and the ability to gather in communities to discuss and have accountability on what is to be understood and taken from each. I believe that when you find someone who has disregarded any of these things you find trouble.

[Buttons]

I'm not a Christian. Do I think it is a scam? Eh, some of it. People use it as a damn crutch. Some people don't even know what Christianity is and put it over people's heads that they are Christians. It doesn't make you any better than another person.

[Ocelot]

When children become young adults, they can choose whatever religion they want to believe in or they can choose to believe in nothing at all.

False. well.... semi-false. at this poin in their life they are already brainwashed into doing and acting as they do, a change is not likely. however, I myself was raised in one of these families and brought myself out of it because I think far too much and none of the bible made sense to me. it didn't add up.


One of the strongest arguments for the accuracy of the Bible is its 100% accuracy in predicting the future. These future predictions are called “prophecies.” The Old Testament was written between approximately 1450 BC and 430 BC. During that time, many predictions of the future were recorded in the Bible by God’s prophets. Of the events that were to have taken place by now, every one happened just the way they predicted it would. No other “sacred writing” has such perfectly accurate predictions of the futureok so please, just for me, will you give examples of these predictions? I'd like to see them and read them, please be as accurate as you can.


Many people of any religion still support that law, mainly because it is tradition. No one is forcing you to live there. My suggestion is to move elsewhere or dispute the law. or buy saturday ;)

[sport_122]

False. well.... semi-false. at this poin in their life they are already brainwashed into doing and acting as they do, a change is not likely. however, I myself was raised in one of these families and brought myself out of it because I think far too much and none of the bible made sense to me. it didn't add up.

ok so please, just for me, will you give examples of these predictions? I'd like to see them and read them, please be as accurate as you can.

or buy saturday ;)

I think his statement is pretty accurate. He didn't comment on the likelihood he simply said they have the choice to explore and follow their own hearts. The internal nature of faith often makes children choose things differently from their parents. Every person has the choice. There are consequences just like with any other choice, but that doesn't mean they don't have some option. Most of the people I know who are believers don't believe exactly what their parents do and most people who I know that claim to be atheists or agnostics come from some sort of religious background. This denotes that his statement has no false edges to it. Just like voting...every U.S. citizen can vote, but not all of us do, and for the ones that do they can vote in many different ways.

Predictions in the Bible. Specifically look in the Old Testament. The prophets of the old testament would warn the people of the impending courses of slavery and hardships in the times of their denial and reluctancy to look to God.

Specifically look at the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel. Those prophecies that are made are most directed at the Jewish people and they came true in their very lifetime or within the period. Then there are prophets who are considered minor prophets and they wrote about the coming messiah, his lineage, how he would be killed (even though crucifixion was not practiced at the time of the prophecies) and they wrote about specific details like the lack of a broken bone in his body (which is significant because the crucifixion process ended with the roman soldiers breaking the legs of the person being crucified, but this did not happen with Christ, and this was unusual for that method of execution. Anyway some of the minors are Hosea, Zechariah, Joel, Amos, Habakkuk, Malachi, Obediah, and Micah. There are more, but these are the ones I think are easiest to read. But either way, many of these men made claims during their life that were ignored by the Jews, some of them were beating and run off, but many of them saw their prophecies fulfilled in their lifetime.

Read on your own for specifics. But I will say that many of the prophecies about the jewish nation disobeying God and being punished were fulfilled shortly after they were prophesied and you can read those accounts as well.

[Ocelot]

I'm not atheist, not agnostic, not religious. I'm myself and just want to learn, I'll take it to another topic so we don't de-rail this one more

[bu villain]

That being said, I'm glad my God can't be proven; I'm glad that He can't be figured out, and I'm glad that He is ultimately in control. What kind of God would He be if I could figure Him out like my best friend, or I knew what He was going to do before He did it like my girlfriend? That's weak, son! His mind boggling principle is what makes Him God..

This is an interesting quote which I think gets to the crux of why there is a lot of animocity against many religions. God is so mind boggling as you put it and yet many religious people claim to know in incredible detail exactly what God wants.

[Ocelot]

yeah, according to the stories, God spoke directly to people, where are the people he speaks to now?

[ahabion]

This topic is pretty much going to be never-ending... one thing that I do find interesting in today's observation is this comparison: Christianity and Environmentalists.

It was predicted by many environmentalists that the polar ice caps would have melted by this time back in the 70's or that the ozone layer would be completely obliterated. At that time, people saw it as crazy talk, today many still do but there are some that have bought into that very belief. They don't ask for proof or concrete evidence that such conjecture is accurate, they take it as face value and do so as they were told would be good for them.

Is "Go Green" wrong? No, I think it's a good thing... cleaner air, less litter, less toxicity in our waters and earth... Do I buy into the whole notion that the world will come to an end if we don't Go Green? No, I don't. I don't because I don't need anymore information on the matter and have come to my own conclusions. I'm free to think what I want and believe in what I want.

What we're missing in this discussion and in America for that matter is: Personal Responsibility.

"Turn's out that McDonalds does serve hot coffee."

[Ocelot]

and dayum their coffee is served hot.... >.<

[geoff]

ocelot...God has spoken to me a few times but not like the old testament....the first time was about a year ago when i was searching for God and i just didnt have strong faith. i remember after reading my bible one night i went outside and said God if your truly real and you hear me give me a sign. sure enough the next sunday at our church we had a guest preacher who at the end of service was praying for healing for our members. one man had a crippled hand and was healed on the spot. i have two other times that i can share if you like. lmk

[zimabog]

placebos have the same effect

[Ocelot]

ocelot...God has spoken to me a few times but not like the old testament....the first time was about a year ago when i was searching for God and i just didnt have strong faith. i remember after reading my bible one night i went outside and said God if your truly real and you hear me give me a sign. sure enough the next sunday at our church we had a guest preacher who at the end of service was praying for healing for our members. one man had a crippled hand and was healed on the spot. i have two other times that i can share if you like. lmk

I was talking about like back in the old days.

but do share more of your experiences, you can PM them if you don't want everyone to hear it. Hand cured? what was wrong with the hand?

[geoff]

and yes the hand was cured. the man had extreme athritis in his right hand. his fingers were completely disformed and bent and crooked. to tell the truth it wa pretty gross. his hand now is no different then mine. well its got wrinkles and what not but you get the point.

another time i was reading a book called learn how to pray on my front porch. i was reading the Lords prayer and a snake came on the porch. my room is in the front of the house and the snake was trying to get in my windows. he tried a few times and couldnt so slithered off. i believe God spoke to me cuz i had been praying that God would let me know what i needed to do to get a deeper relationship with Him, He told me that i need to stay in His word and pray...thats how i took it. maybe it was just a coincidence?

another time i was really feeling like God wanted me to preach a sermon to the youth group, i was scared cuz i was gonna give my testimony about where i came from ( partying, drinking, drugs, sex, ect...) and i had a good reputation in the church and didnt want to ruin it. i struggled with this for a long time. finally one night before i started reading my bible i prayed that God would let me know if this was something i should do and to give me an answer. i decided to just open up the bible anywhere and have God answer me. i opened it and random and swear on everything that i hold dear that this is the first verse i read ( i remember to this day like it just happened) "Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life." acts 5:20. still more examples

[zimabog]

Do any of you like Communion? A little flesh and blood of the Messiah?

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5322/fleshandbloodofjesus.jpg

[sport_122]

This is an interesting quote which I think gets to the crux of why there is a lot of animocity against many religions. God is so mind boggling as you put it and yet many religious people claim to know in incredible detail exactly what God wants.

I like this quote...I just believe that God is slowly revealing himself through us and he has provided us with the means to start do understand and discern him and his ways.

I guess my faith in this process is much like the faith that a humanist or atheist would have in science. As they would say, science is not everything, but it is a method that eventually leads us to answers...I just happen to think that the end of that quest will be the full revelation of God and all that He has done.

maybe i'm weird, but I know that I have done enough research to feel extremely grounded in what I believe.

[revsk8erdude]

im atheist for reason being, i believe in what i makes more sense. think about it. what has more scientific proof behind it? evolution>creationisim

end of story.

[sport_122]

im atheist for reason being, i believe in what i makes more sense. think about it. what has more scientific proof behind it? evolution>creationisim

end of story.

scientific proof behind what in atheism?....

[revsk8erdude]

Go back and read that again. I dont think you understood that right.

[sport_122]

Go back and read that again. I dont think you understood that right.

that would make sense if evolution was even in the same bracket as creationism.

evolution is a process...creationism is a discussion on origins. They are not even arguing the same argument. The Bible says nothing contrary to evolution and evolution does not say anything contrary to creationism, this conclusion is a false analogy as the two do not exist on the same plane, unless you are talking about the people who assume that the process God used was immediate, but that is theory again and not universally supported by the Bible.

My point is that the science behind scripture and other (seemingly) non biblical theories is mostly a controversy that is made up by people who are not trying to promote science as much as they want to remove or tear down the concepts of religion. They will never succeed in this because both of these topics are going to remain subjective and people are going to believe based on their presuppositions. Atheism is about lack of evidence for God, but the process of evolution does not sway that conversation either way. You should listen to John Lennox and Richard Dawkins discuss this its a great conversation.

I'm fine with you claiming to be an atheist, but science does not support this discussion either way. That's a myth made up by scientist who figured they were all of a sudden smarter than people of faith, but even in our history we are often finding out that our ancient civilizations were much smarter than we give them credit for.

[OZ135]

I agree 100% those ppl are just lost

[highspeed]

im atheist for reason being, i believe in what i makes more sense. think about it. what has more scientific proof behind it? evolution>creationisim

end of story.

I keep out of this forum for a reason.........because I come from a very religious, deeply christian family......my father,grandfather,other grandfather,etc., have all been pastors...........so:

I do believe in God, but I don't believe in the Bible.......completely. It has been translated and passed on for centuries, just like telling your friend something and by the time it gets back to you......it is usually something else.

I went to a Christian college in TN where 2 of the core requirements were Old Testament and New testament, as unpleasent as it was, it was still good for me to finally figure out what "I" beleive.

For me to tell you that evolutionism is wrong would be overly provencial, as it would be to tell me that creationism ........i.e the christian "God", isn't real. I have had many heated discussions with many of my friends, usually ending with me arguing that God isn't real and that Evolution is undoubtebly the way we came about. But then I realized how crazy and stupid I sounded, not because I argued for evolutionism.......the fact that I was arguing about this made me realize that it wasn't my PLACE to argue, but to find the truth that made sense to me. It look back and realize that I just argued because I envied their(christians, muslim, etc.) stronger faith, because it made me feel that they had "found themselves" while I was still lost in a sea of confusion.

It is generally known that a true christian( or buddist, muslim, hindu)all have a high amount of faith in what they believe, for one reason or another. I actually had to take a step back and found that I frankly envy them, because I don't have that kind of faith in anything, unless I can see it, touch it, feel it, and or smell it. This is because I am a rational thinker, I can rationalize anything til it has been broken down to make sense in my mind. I don't fault myself for that, I just know that my faith is less, not weaker, than other people.

I know that I will get flamed for my comments because someone will read one part, and not the other.........yet another reason why I don't post on here



Faith, and religion(or lack of) is a personal struggle and quest.

In my eyes, to tell one person they are wrong because they believe in 3 Gods instead of one, or to tell someone that because they believe in God(or not).....they are crazy................is just close-minded and is a coping mechanism for the weak of mind and heart.

Thats just me:crazy:

Im going to open up a thread on Church......because I would love to see some arguments about if it is a big scheme or worth the trouble.

[ahabion]

I keep out of this forum for a reason.........because I come from a very religious, deeply christian family......my father,grandfather,other grandfather,etc., have all been pastors...........so:

I do believe in God, but I don't believe in the Bible.......completely. It has been translated and passed on for centuries, just like telling your friend something and by the time it gets back to you......it is usually something else.

I went to a Christian college in TN where 2 of the core requirements were Old Testament and New testament, as unpleasent as it was, it was still good for me to finally figure out what "I" beleive.

For me to tell you that evolutionism is wrong would be overly provencial, as it would be to tell me that creationism ........i.e the christian "God", isn't real. I have had many heated discussions with many of my friends, usually ending with me arguing that God isn't real and that Evolution is undoubtebly the way we came about. But then I realized how crazy and stupid I sounded, not because I argued for evolutionism.......the fact that I was arguing about this made me realize that it wasn't my PLACE to argue, but to find the truth that made sense to me. It look back and realize that I just argued because I envied their(christians, muslim, etc.) stronger faith, because it made me feel that they had "found themselves" while I was still lost in a sea of confusion.

It is generally known that a true christian( or buddist, muslim, hindu)all have a high amount of faith in what they believe, for one reason or another. I actually had to take a step back and found that I frankly envy them, because I don't have that kind of faith in anything, unless I can see it, touch it, feel it, and or smell it. This is because I am a rational thinker, I can rationalize anything til it has been broken down to make sense in my mind. I don't fault myself for that, I just know that my faith is less, not weaker, than other people.

I know that I will get flamed for my comments because someone will read one part, and not the other.........yet another reason why I don't post on here



Faith, and religion(or lack of) is a personal struggle and quest.

In my eyes, to tell one person they are wrong because they believe in 3 Gods instead of one, or to tell someone that because they believe in God(or not).....they are crazy................is just close-minded and is a coping mechanism for the weak of mind and heart.

Thats just me:crazy:

Im going to open up a thread on Church......because I would love to see some arguments about if it is a big scheme or worth the trouble.

Very well put! I can agree to that 100% and I'm a Christian :D

What I can appreciate about you specifically is that you OWNED your conscious decision to believe or not to believe. To find answers for yourself and not buy into what "people" say on either side of the fence.

For the OP, decide for yourself... people aren't trained like a dog is to it's master... you make a decision, to be or not to be? That is the question!

[Ocelot]

not everyone makes the decision, and not everyone is capable of changing their mind when they are adult.

some people had to go to church because their family said so, it was sort of brainwashed into them. is it wrong to take your kid to church? nah. but it makes it hard for them to "choose their own beliefs"

[sport_122]

Ocelot.

what you are referring to is called presuppositions. Basically its all those things that shape how we will interpret anything that we take in with our five senses. If your initial view on life is that there is a God and he is real then you are more likely to interpret all things in light of that and if you don't believe there is a God then you are likely to interpret things in that manor.

It is very difficult to get around that personally, and especially with outside influences. I really had to wrestle with those things that I used to believe about God that were foundational things in my presuppositions and it is usually those things that when you first hear them you are shocked, or you think, no that's impossible. Things like free will, evolution, Alien/UFO existence, but after looking and really digging my presuppositions are very different than they were 12 years ago.

[sport_122]

I went to a Christian college in TN where 2 of the core requirements were Old Testament and New testament, as unpleasent as it was, it was still good for me to finally figure out what "I" beleive.

For me to tell you that evolutionism is wrong would be overly provencial, as it would be to tell me that creationism ........i.e the christian "God", isn't real. I have had many heated discussions with many of my friends, usually ending with me arguing that God isn't real and that Evolution is undoubtebly the way we came about. But then I realized how crazy and stupid I sounded, not because I argued for evolutionism.......the fact that I was arguing about this made me realize that it wasn't my PLACE to argue, but to find the truth that made sense to me. It look back and realize that I just argued because I envied their(christians, muslim, etc.) stronger faith, because it made me feel that they had "found themselves" while I was still lost in a sea of confusion.

It is generally known that a true christian( or buddist, muslim, hindu)all have a high amount of faith in what they believe, for one reason or another. I actually had to take a step back and found that I frankly envy them, because I don't have that kind of faith in anything, unless I can see it, touch it, feel it, and or smell it. This is because I am a rational thinker, I can rationalize anything til it has been broken down to make sense in my mind. I don't fault myself for that, I just know that my faith is less, not weaker, than other people.

I sort of agree with you.

I guess the differences are that I believe that the Bible tells us that we are to be prepared to give reason for our belief and a denial of this very principle is why there are so many people who don't even understand the foundation of the relationship. Yes there is faith that is a part of it, but the faith that we should have should be made valid by the evidence that we can present for that faith. It doesn't mean that everyone will agree with it. It will mean that we are not stupid and blindly buying into something, but we are looking at what is provided as information and making a conscious effort to understand our beliefs. So I feel that believers are supposed to be able to argue their beliefs by the use of logic, science, and historical information and without those our beliefs become clouded and the truths associated with our faith get twisted because we can forget over time why we believe what we believe if we don't strengthen the core of our faith. And those who argue against faith are definitely going to twist our beliefs to make them seem archaic or invalid.

This is why I also believe it is very important to understand the history of the Bible and all of its translations. Mostly because it is not true to assume that the Bible has been passed along like a game of telephone. It hasn't. We still have almost all of the original texts in their greek/hebrew form and translations come from these, not from the last translation. The reason for the numerous translations, is because our language has evolved and in order to keep things current we have to be able to have the most accurate translation available because the Greek and Hebrew languages are extremely detailed languages and in many cases we can't directly translate into those languages as we could spanish or french. We just don't have the vocabulary for it. But most of the new translations come directly from the original texts, not a previously translated text. And we have to update translations because WE are changing all the time and we will have a huge disconnect if we did not.

I have always pushed myself in my beliefs, but the first thing I had to do was find out what was valid and what would be useful. If we write our faith off to just faith and ignore the history that is written (which we can't touch or feel, or ignore the philosophical information that cannot be touched with the senses then we will undercut the logic and rationality that really legitimizes the Christian faith. I personally don't agree with believers who say, its just faith, because based on the Bible we should be able to see and understand the evidence of its claims. Its not a book of science, but it is a book of progressiveness. As time goes on and we become more aware and we are allowed to investigate and gain understandings of those things written in the Bible. But we cannot do that if we feel that the Bible is made up of a people playing telephone. If I believed that then I would not believe any of it because there would be no way of telling what was made up and what was actually experienced.


BTW, where did you go to school? Covenant? Lee?

[Maniacc]

Ocelot.

what you are referring to is called presuppositions. Basically its all those things that shape how we will interpret anything that we take in with our five senses. If your initial view on life is that there is a God and he is real then you are more likely to interpret all things in light of that and if you don't believe there is a God then you are likely to interpret things in that manor.

That's not necessarily true.

I was raised to believe in God and to take the word of the bible as truth as a kid. I was baptized and did my first communion, but I never cared for it. I did it because my parents pretty much forced me to.

It didn't shape me into the person that I am today. I wasn't into church as a kid and I am still not. I interpret things in a logical manner.



It is very difficult to get around that personally, and especially with outside influences. I really had to wrestle with those things that I used to believe about God that were foundational things in my presuppositions and it is usually those things that when you first hear them you are shocked, or you think, no that's impossible. Things like free will, evolution, Alien/UFO existence, but after looking and really digging my presuppositions are very different than they were 12 years ago.

I personally don't see a reason to be shocked after being informed about aliens, evolution, ect. because seeing the world only through a religous point of view is pretty childish. People should be opened to things. No reason to limit yourself.

As a kid it was pretty easy accepting the fact that religion contained flaws and it was also pretty easy for me to accept that science contained flaws. Both sides aren't perfect but when you look at them in a logical way you can logically say that religion contains a lot more flaws than science and it's theories. Science provides answers to questions. Religion does not.

[Ocelot]

I too was raised religious, even went to a religious school as a child, but then my parents stopped it all in order to give me and my brother a choice with what we want to do with our lives. I thank them for this.

however, not everyone is so lucky

[Maniacc]

I too was raised religious, even went to a religious school as a child, but then my parents stopped it all in order to give me and my brother a choice with what we want to do with our lives. I thank them for this.

however, not everyone is so lucky
Haha, lucky you. I wasn't give the pleasure of deciding whether or not I wanted to contine going to church. I pretty much had to get into arguments with my parents every sunday morning growing up. And explain to them how I hated church and how much of a waste of time it was(for me at least). I'm an adult now and I still get the occasional 'want to go to church with us next friday?' I mean, I don't even live with them anymore lol.

[Ocelot]

it happens, at least know they mean well, they want what they feel is best for you, even if you do not think it is

[ahabion]

As a pastor's kid, I was always made to go to church (my dad is the pastor!). Doesn't mean that I wanted to go nor does it mean that I believed what my parents did. I'm sure that goes for a lot of preacher kids (hence the stereotype that preacher kids are the worst behaved). We try to break out of the shell that our parents form around us... but isn't that how it is for ALL kids irregardless of what that shell may be, good or bad? Honestly, we strive to be the opposite of what our parents are when we grow up... but somewhere in my mid-teens... there was a pivotal point in my life of living my life my way that basically said, "Who are you and what do you want to be?"

You can be brought up in any kind of household but ultimately, YOU choose your life as an adult irregardless of your influences. Because only YOU can change the circumstances of your life. Refusing to take responsibility of your life and blaming it on parents, friends, church, cults, beliefs, whatever is simply ignoring the fact that you live your life and you and the choices you make affect you.

[highspeed]

I sort of agree with you.

I guess the differences are that I believe that the Bible tells us that we are to be prepared to give reason for our belief and a denial of this very principle is why there are so many people who don't even understand the foundation of the relationship. Yes there is faith that is a part of it, but the faith that we should have should be made valid by the evidence that we can present for that faith. It doesn't mean that everyone will agree with it. It will mean that we are not stupid and blindly buying into something, but we are looking at what is provided as information and making a conscious effort to understand our beliefs. So I feel that believers are supposed to be able to argue their beliefs by the use of logic, science, and historical information and without those our beliefs become clouded and the truths associated with our faith get twisted because we can forget over time why we believe what we believe if we don't strengthen the core of our faith. And those who argue against faith are definitely going to twist our beliefs to make them seem archaic or invalid.

This is why I also believe it is very important to understand the history of the Bible and all of its translations. Mostly because it is not true to assume that the Bible has been passed along like a game of telephone. It hasn't. We still have almost all of the original texts in their greek/hebrew form and translations come from these, not from the last translation. The reason for the numerous translations, is because our language has evolved and in order to keep things current we have to be able to have the most accurate translation available because the Greek and Hebrew languages are extremely detailed languages and in many cases we can't directly translate into those languages as we could spanish or french. We just don't have the vocabulary for it. But most of the new translations come directly from the original texts, not a previously translated text. And we have to update translations because WE are changing all the time and we will have a huge disconnect if we did not.

I have always pushed myself in my beliefs, but the first thing I had to do was find out what was valid and what would be useful. If we write our faith off to just faith and ignore the history that is written (which we can't touch or feel, or ignore the philosophical information that cannot be touched with the senses then we will undercut the logic and rationality that really legitimizes the Christian faith. I personally don't agree with believers who say, its just faith, because based on the Bible we should be able to see and understand the evidence of its claims. Its not a book of science, but it is a book of progressiveness. As time goes on and we become more aware and we are allowed to investigate and gain understandings of those things written in the Bible. But we cannot do that if we feel that the Bible is made up of a people playing telephone. If I believed that then I would not believe any of it because there would be no way of telling what was made up and what was actually experienced.


BTW, where did you go to school? Covenant? Lee?


I went to Lee University:screwy:

[geoff]

i myself was raised in a romanian pentocostal church. i didnt understand it at all cuz i didnt have a good understanding of the language. i left church with my mother when i was 10. when i was 19 i suddenly found my way back to church. i spent countless days and nights studying and searching and in the end i have my faith now that 1. God is real. 2. He came down as Jesus and died for our sins to provide salvation 3. salvation comes from hearing the word, repenting, confessing Christ as Lord of my life, baptism in Jesus name for remission of sins, baptism of fire ( the Holy Spirit ), living my life as the apostles and disciples did, and finally that the Word of God is Truth and will not fade away nor does it change. i can honestly say that i have never had more peace than being in Gods presence.

[revsk8erdude]

what the hell was i thinking posting in here...