earth is 6000+ years old...?

[Paul]

ok who honestly believes this? i've always wondered how people are going to dispute such findings like the new 47 Million Year old Fossil (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/636675)

[SPOOLIN]

bible swimmers are the ones that believe that crap, it really gets old. I know people who just totally disregard that dinosaurs are 65 million years old...carbon dating tells you that. Some disregard dinosaurs altogether or believe that we lived among them LOL.

[Paul]

bible swimmers are the ones that believe that crap, it really gets old. I know people who just totally disregard that dinosaurs are 65 million years old...carbon dating tells you that. Some disregard dinosaurs altogether or believe that we lived among them LOL.

i mean i can see someone disputing that carbon dating isn't 100% but come on even w/ a margin of error if you say something is 47 million years even w/ an error in dating it is still going to be MILLIONS not THOUSANDS :rolleyes:

[Nemesis]

Ive always wondered this, as Im not a geoligist, but how is carbon dating accurate or even a form of measure of time?

[BanginJimmy]

carbon dating uses the halflife or carbon. Its not accurate beyond a window that varies by age. It is definitely accurate enough to know that the dinosaurs are quit a bit older than 6k years though.

[thepolecat]

best arguement I have heard came from a rabbi who said that the fossils put on Earth are a test of faith by G-d to see if you really believe

Good make ya think moment- I still believe in evolution though

[BanginJimmy]

I have noticed that religions just ignore anything that doesnt fit their very narrow mindset.

[99hatch]

The Bible does not say that the world is only 6000 years old. There may be some Bible Thumpers that believe that. But there are also some crazy Bible thumpers that believe that abortion clinics should be blown up. You can't trust people because they are ignorant. But myself as a Christian do believe that the world is millions of years old. Not to mention it does talk about Dinosaurs in the Bible. But the word Dinosaur was not invented until the 1800's. But in Job 40 15-17

15 “Look now at the  ("]3[/url]behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.


[url=")16 See now, his strength is in his hips,


And his power is in his stomach muscles.


("")17 He moves his tail like a cedar;


The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.





Talks about moving his tail like a Ceder. What kind of animal has a Tail that big i ask? We dont have anything like that now.

[mocha latte cupcake]

agreed with 99 hatch. 6000 years old i don't believe.. but it is correct that dinosaurs were mentioned in the bible and i would give a closer guess to 10-15k however millions i do not believe.

[99hatch]

btw Man might be 6000 years old, but not the world. Also I do not believe word for word the world was created in 6 days. It also states in the bible that to God a day is not the same as man. Its not a 24 hour period as he does not live on earth with the world rotating around in 24 hours. To God there is no such thing as time, because he is not living in the same reality we are. He has seen the past, present and future all at the same time.

[WhiteAccord]

In my honest opinion religion is a fad. I do not disrespect anyone on their belief but honestly has anyone ever looked at all the past religions? Some have faded and is no longer worshipped by people(ex. Greek Gods), some religions have out lasted others(ex. christianity).

Does that sound familiar to present day? Clothing, Cars, house styles... Some trends stay and some move on. Christianity was only able to out last most beliefs well obviously because past times christian followers killed people who chose not to believe in such fable.

99hatch: You are right on what the bible says, but have you noticed the bible is re-written EVERY year for an estimated of the past 400 years+. In that 400 years do you think they would have been able to reconfigure on what the bible says to work with present day findings/discoveries?

This also points out my next theory... Christianity is probably one of the biggest scams ever. Ask and I shall explain.

[BanginJimmy]

The Vatican has MANY books of the bible that have never been published, along with most versions of the original bibles. No one but the select few who have access to the vatican archives knows for sure what the original writings of the bibles authors actually said.

[WhiteAccord]

The Vatican has MANY books of the bible that have never been published, along with most versions of the original bibles. No one but the select few who have access to the vatican archives knows for sure what the original writings of the bibles authors actually said.

With this being said, why should such religion be kept held a secret? Why must the original as you stated, being only accessible to only a select few? For those who believe in such religion, ones who would do anything to understand the true meaning of being a "faithful" one be kept away from regular people(People who give money to churches and go to church every Sunday to worship someone/something that they have never even heard of or have ACTUAL evidence). Chances are Christianity has many secrets in which could literally destroy the "Christian Faith" could be more of a reason proving that religion in all among aspects be a FALSE claim.

Making only my theory of Christianity of being one of the biggest scams more plausible.

[BanginJimmy]

With this being said, why should such religion be kept held a secret? Why must the original as you stated, being only accessible to only a select few? For those who believe in such religion, ones who would do anything to understand the true meaning of being a "faithful" one be kept away from regular people(People who give money to churches and go to church every Sunday to worship someone/something that they have never even heard of or have ACTUAL evidence). Chances are Christianity has many secrets in which could literally destroy the "Christian Faith" could be more of a reason proving that religion in all among aspects be a FALSE claim.

Making only my theory of Christianity of being one of the biggest scams.


I believe this is all true. The only reasons for not letting these versions of the bible and these other books open to the public is to protect their power. The church isnt that far off of where it was 300 years ago. Their strength isnt as public as it used to be, but it is still there. Any info that can hurt that power is going to be fiercely fought by the vatican.

[SPOOLIN]

this place we live on is millions of years old, hell i guess the universe is only like 20,000 years old yet we still see things happening in the past accross the universe millions and millions of light years ago (a light year is how far light travels in a year btw) (its a lot of miles)

[WhiteAccord]

/\/\ Troof. To me though my only question I have to ask is... How long will this fad/trend last...???

[BABY J]

http://www.dailymotion.com/user/totocacapouet/video/x8uei4_openmindedness_tech

GAME OVER

[Total_Blender]

Some people believe that Jesus rode dinosaurs:

http://thesilverplatter.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/jesusdino.jpg

Others believe that Jesus was a dinosaur.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2784/raptorjesus1ep9.jpg

[SPOOLIN]

delete

"server is to busy" double post

[SPOOLIN]

Some people believe that Jesus rode dinosaurs:

http://thesilverplatter.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/jesusdino.jpg

Others believe that Jesus was a dinosaur.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2784/raptorjesus1ep9.jpg


OMG THAT SHIT MADE ME ROLL!!!

or should i say, OMJ!!!

[99hatch]

99hatch: You are right on what the bible says, but have you noticed the bible is re-written EVERY year for an estimated of the past 400 years+. In that 400 years do you think they would have been able to reconfigure on what the bible says to work with present day findings/discoveries?

This also points out my next theory... Christianity is probably one of the biggest scams ever. Ask and I shall explain.

Well Good points. Let me also say that Even though the book has been written over and over again it is the exact same. Do you know that when they found the dead sea scrolls in the late 40's (i believe) that they took them back and compared them to the current Bible. It was the exact same. approximately 2000 years apart and they message was the same. I believe this as divine intervention. I enjoy debating it and dont wish to strike down anyone Else's believes, but 2000 years of going through probably hundreds of peoples hands and rewritings and it was the same.

As for the other statement about Catholics with the other books of the Bible. Its tough to choose one denomination like Catholics and then apply it to Christianity across the board. There are many different beliefs and I denominations also came from Man, not God. he did not intend on there being 389239808023 different denominations. Just one religion Christianity. I do think man has gotten in the way of it over the years, but who is without sin. No one but Jesus.

[99hatch]

Some people believe that Jesus rode dinosaurs:

http://thesilverplatter.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/jesusdino.jpg

Others believe that Jesus was a dinosaur.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2784/raptorjesus1ep9.jpg

I know your just trying to be funny. But who are these people that believe that? I am not one, when has someone on IA who claims to be a Christian say they believe that Jesus rode a Dinosaur. There are people that believe in cursing troops too like that Crazy Westboro Baptist Church that has no offiliation with the Baptist Church. There are also people that believe in Scientology, or whatever else in the world they want to believe.


People do make a lot of mistakes, and are like sheep in general. We can all Agree on that. But do not force crazy people's ideals on me (or other True Christians) just because they claim to be Christians. Just as Muslims do not believe in killing whitey or USA. But a few bad apples can spoil the bunch.

[BABY J]

Well Good points. Let me also say that Even though the book has been written over and over again it is the exact same. Do you know that when they found the dead sea scrolls in the late 40's (i believe) that they took them back and compared them to the current Bible. It was the exact same. approximately 2000 years apart and they message was the same. I believe this as divine intervention. I enjoy debating it and dont wish to strike down anyone Else's believes, but 2000 years of going through probably hundreds of peoples hands and rewritings and it was the same.

As for the other statement about Catholics with the other books of the Bible. Its tough to choose one denomination like Catholics and then apply it to Christianity across the board. There are many different beliefs and I denominations also came from Man, not God. he did not intend on there being 389239808023 different denominations. Just one religion Christianity. I do think man has gotten in the way of it over the years, but who is without sin. No one but Jesus.

So 2k years of separation and the text has been unchanged --- that's sad, b/c that means that theer has been a LOT of inconsistencies from the very start. LOL

No wonder there are so many denominations. If THE WORD is THE WORD how can this be so? Hmmm...

[99hatch]

With this being said, why should such religion be kept held a secret? Why must the original as you stated, being only accessible to only a select few? For those who believe in such religion, ones who would do anything to understand the true meaning of being a "faithful" one be kept away from regular people(People who give money to churches and go to church every Sunday to worship someone/something that they have never even heard of or have ACTUAL evidence). Chances are Christianity has many secrets in which could literally destroy the "Christian Faith" could be more of a reason proving that religion in all among aspects be a FALSE claim.

Making only my theory of Christianity of being one of the biggest scams more plausible.

Just because you dont have any Actual Evidence in God doesnt mean I dont. God is spiritual and you have to look at him through spiritual eyes. I see evidence in God everywhere. I have witnessed Miracles in my life, maybe some people could just write it off to a coincidence, but I know it was God intervening. Also to these "hidden" books. There are no Hidden books in Christianity. It is the Bible, and that is it. The oldest book of all time. Mormons claim that they have the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible, but they are not recognized as Christians. So grouping religion as a whole is simply not true.

Also where is the ACTUAL evidence of Evolution. There is none. We can debate about this till we are blue in the face, but either way it takes Faith to believe in either.

Faith:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

I know there is a God, from my personal experiences with him. Also purely looking around at the world. If anything it takes more FAITH to believe in Evolution. So you are telling me that By Chance the Earth was created, and developed into the world we live in today. By chance that plants use Carbon dioxide and put off oxogen, and we are the oposite. That there is a food chain and everything has something it eats on this earth. And this all started from some single cell organisms originally. All because of an explosion. That we are exactly the right distance from the sun to not burn up or freeze, so life can survive here on this planet. I could go on with thousands of examples, but either way you put it, it takes faith to find out how the world was created.

[99hatch]

So 2k years of separation and the text has been unchanged --- that's sad, b/c that means that theer has been a LOT of inconsistencies from the very start. LOL

No wonder there are so many denominations. If THE WORD is THE WORD how can this be so? Hmmm...

Where are these "inconsistencies"? I dont see any. Like i said if you read it, that denominations are man created. The word is the word, but people may perceive it differently like anything else. How can there be people that believe so many different things in the world. Inconsistencies are in men, and yet the Bible is the word of God, thats why it is unchanged.

[SPOOLIN]

Where are these "inconsistencies"? I dont see any. Like i said if you read it, that denominations are man created. The word is the word, but people may perceive it differently like anything else. How can there be people that believe so many different things in the world. Inconsistencies are in men, and yet the Bible is the word of God, thats why it is unchanged.


You are telling me you are a scholar that has read all of the versions cover to cover?? There are people who devote their lives to religious scholar that have found the inconsistencies in all of the books of religion because they study and dissect them. The bible has changed from its first version i have no doubt in that. This is the problem with DEEP catholics and christians, they are very NAIVE about things outside of what their bible, pastor and priest tell them.

Is there never a day when you run out of stuff to talk about in church? lol, i've often wondered this.

[BABY J]

The Bible does not say that the world is only 6000 years old. There may be some Bible Thumpers that believe that. But there are also some crazy Bible thumpers that believe that abortion clinics should be blown up. You can't trust people because they are ignorant. But myself as a Christian do believe that the world is millions of years old. Not to mention it does talk about Dinosaurs in the Bible. But the word Dinosaur was not invented until the 1800's. But in Job 40 15-17





15 “Look now at the 3 (http://3/)behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.








16 See now, his strength is in his hips,






And his power is in his stomach muscles.






17 He moves his tail like a cedar;






The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.






Talks about moving his tail like a Ceder. What kind of animal has a Tail that big i ask? We dont have anything like that now.


Some translations list behemoth's "navel" in verse 16, thus precluding the possibility of it being a dinosaur. (Saurians, like avian and reptilian species, are born from eggs and have no navel - those are mammalian)

Verse above also only says the tail "sways like a cedar" - hard to take that as a definition of anything.

In the Hebrew, the word used for "behemoth" only appears once in the Bible and is otherwise untranslatable. It was the translators who looked at the rest of the details and determined that "lilith" must be something big, thus inserting the English word "behemoth" and giving us the idea that it could possibly be something like a dinosaur.

You want an interesting project? Dig up those verses through the end of the description (you know, being in the river, the eyes and nose, etc) in the major translations (NAS, NIV, KJ, Living) and compare them. You can't even get any kind of consensus among major, scholarly translations on what some of those strange allegories in Job mean. Trying to make any sort of claim that they describe a dinosaur is VERY far reaching. Kthnxbye:goodjob:

[BABY J]

Where are these "inconsistencies"? I dont see any. Like i said if you read it, that denominations are man created. The word is the word, but people may perceive it differently like anything else. How can there be people that believe so many different things in the world. Inconsistencies are in men, and yet the Bible is the word of God, thats why it is unchanged.

I've said this before and will say it again...

And how do you feel about ex-Creationists and ministers who have realized that it's all a bunch of silly myths after clinging desperately to scripture for years? And trust me, I've been all through the "Evidence That Demands a Verdict Series" and other Josh McDowell writings, as well as wandering though a lot of Hal Lindsey's works. Plus scores of others.

They all fall apart when scrutinized at a truly intellectual level. They use a document to prove itself. You cannot do this - it is an inherently flawed method of proof. By applying the same type of logic anything becomes true because it proves itself.

If you want to believe something, that's fine, that's faith. But don't try to turn it into a scientific or historical study because it will fall apart quickly under the jaundiced gaze of rigirous academic scrutiny.

[Paul]

i love people that are so sure the bible is troof ... i wonder how many of you can speak/read hebrew/latin b/c the first gospels, doctrines, etc were; so the bible you read today isn't even original. religion is a control tool and has always been used that way even before monothesiem(christianity) was sought after as a control tool by the roman empire.

amazing we have roman documents even before christ yet none dicpictating the events as the bible states.

we are specs of dust on a larger spec of dust in a universe larger than we can even comprehend so beliving in shit like santa claus is just dumb.

[99hatch]

I've said this before and will say it again...

And how do you feel about ex-Creationists and ministers who have realized that it's all a bunch of silly myths after clinging desperately to scripture for years? And trust me, I've been all through the "Evidence That Demands a Verdict Series" and other Josh McDowell writings, as well as wandering though a lot of Hal Lindsey's works. Plus scores of others.

They all fall apart when scrutinized at a truly intellectual level. They use a document to prove itself. You cannot do this - it is an inherently flawed method of proof. By applying the same type of logic anything becomes true because it proves itself.

If you want to believe something, that's fine, that's faith. But don't try to turn it into a scientific or historical study because it will fall apart quickly under the jaundiced gaze of rigirous academic scrutiny.

Well let me ask you what you believe? Are you a evolutionist? Where is your facts in that, if that is what you believe? Do you believe in Darwin's Theory, when there are claims that he became a Christian on his deathbed. Yes i am aware that this was not proven or disproved. But It goes both ways. There are several evolutionists that after years of trying to disprove the Bible could not and became Christians.

Thats fine if you want to read the scores of books and series out there. I applaud you for trying to find out information yourself. I enjoy reading and educating myself as well, but still there are no proven facts on either side, so those books are mere opinions, just as we are discussing here is opinions of what we believe.

What exactly about the Bible has "Fallen Apart" I am yet to hear anyone dissect the Bible and make it Fall Apart on an intellectual level. I am willing to listen to other ideas, and if you can give me proof that God does not exist i would be eager to hear it. But you simply cannot.

[BABY J]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:


- 4/5ths of American homes own a Bible.

- The bible is supposidly the best selling book of all time, but it never seems to crack Amazons top 100.

- Bible nuts pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. God awards them for that.

- Genesis chap 1&2: There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES on Adam and Eve. In the first chapter, God creates Adam and Eve AT THE SAME TIME. In the second chapter, he creates Adam, starts creating animals and plants on the Earth, THEN creates Eve out of Adams rib. Which one happened?

- Genesis 6:11-13, Noas Ark. I don't really have to go into this, it's impossible. 10 billion species on a boat, give me a break. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, in fact, to take the story literally is MISSING THE COMPLETE POINT OF THE STORY. It's about renewal, and an account of an ACTUAL FLOOD that science has prove happened on the Euphrates river, around 2900 BC. It sure as hell didn't flood the world.

- Moses and the Red Sea: Thousands of Jews enslaved by the Egyptian Pharaoh? Never happened, in countless artifacts we have from ancients Egypt, not one account.

- There's no evidence that Moses even existed.

- There's no evidence that Jesus Existed. (i actually disagree w/ this one)

- The shroud of tourin has been proven to be a fake! But yet the Catholic church still recognizes it as a possibility. It's been dated over 1000 years after Jesus.

- An ancient historian named Josephis, wrote about Jesus and their followers. Later a first centry Roman historian also wrote about him. Multiple sources about a guy named Jesus, only written hundreds and a thousand years later.

- Jesus was not the only Messiah at the time. There were lots of them. Apollonius of Tayana was one of these written about in the first centry, NOW SWALLOW THIS:

-- Apollonius healed the sick.
-- Apollonius raised the dead.
-- Apollonius could walk through walls.
-- Apollonius was persecuted for his Religious beleifs.
-- Apollonius was brought to trial. By the local Roman courts.
-- Apollonius was crucified.
-- Apollonius ascended to heaven afterwards.
-- Apollonius came back from the dead where his followers saw him.


This is not the Jesus story, but is it? There are many stories like this! Jesus just happened to make the Bible!


- There are books that were a part of the original Bible that "didn't make the final cut".

- Conservative Christians pick and choose passeges from the Bible based on current moral conviction. A man shall not lay with another man, FINE, but what about all the others? For example:

-- You should stone to death disobedient children.

-- Exodus 21:7: It's ok to sell your daughter into slavery.

-- Exodus 35:2: Anyone working on the Sabbath, should be put to death.

-- Corithians 11:14: Men with long hair should be shameful. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES OF JESUS YOU WORSHIP?????!!!

-- Corithians 11:19-24: A man shall not go near a woman while she is on her period. Common sense says yes, but try to enforce THAT.

There are so many more, but if you believe God to be infallible, then you can't throw out some of the rules, then keep the ones that are most conveiniant.


THE BIBLE WAS A HUMAN EDITED, SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED BOOK, OVER MANY, MANY CENTURIES. It promotes prejudice, cruelty, superstition - even murder.

Now -- in your defense, I don't base my entire life philosophy on an episode of Penn & Teller. But the Penn and Teller episode was just an example, and simple to swallow for simple people. Excuse me if I don't base my entire philosophy on a book created by fools that lived 2000 years ago. I'll take actual fact and HEAVILY researched data. Not from a source that thinks ghosts are real and the world is flat. Just doesn't cut reality to me.

There are plenty of other problems. For instance, in the Gospel of John, Jesus is eventually crucified for raising Lazarus from the dead, arguably his greatest miracle. Yet its an event mentioned NOWHERE ELSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT! Why? Simple. John made it up. We know now that the last chunk of the Gospel of Mark (handling serpents, drinking poison, all that jazz) didn't exist in the original manuscripts, yet its included in the scripture still. Remember, this is the perfect, inspired "Word of God" here. You do not get the right of picking and choosing which parts are credible and which aren't.

Some of the other "moral dilemmas" referenced being from P&T aren't really, from a Christian perspective. They're Old Testament vs New Testament. However, most of the "hero stories" of Genesis are based on Babylonian mythos. On the flip side, there's very little doubt from a historical perspective that Jesus was real. Did he really do all those great things or was he just a visionary philosopher that ended up exaggerated to make headlines? Most likely the latter.

[BABY J]

^^ EDIT

[man]

Bunch of ignorant mofos in here (both sides of the argument)

[IDCoconut]

^ yep.

buncha google thumpers.

[99hatch]

- There's no evidence that Moses even existed.

- There's no evidence that Jesus Existed. (i actually disagree w/ this one)

- The shroud of tourin has been proven to be a fake! But yet the Catholic church still recognizes it as a possibility. It's been dated over 1000 years after Jesus.


- Jesus was not the only Messiah at the time. There were lots of them. Apollonius of Tayana was one of these written about in the first centry, NOW SWALLOW THIS:

-- Apollonius healed the sick.
-- Apollonius raised the dead.
-- Apollonius could walk through walls.
-- Apollonius was persecuted for his Religious beleifs.
-- Apollonius was brought to trial. By the local Roman courts.
-- Apollonius was crucified.
-- Apollonius ascended to heaven afterwards.
-- Apollonius came back from the dead where his followers saw him.


This is not the Jesus story, but is it? There are many stories like this! Jesus just happened to make the Bible!


I will have a rebuttal for the rest, but dang thats a lot of Info you through at me. Will take a while! haha. By the way, i too have seen the Penn and Teller show, have all of the first 6 seasons on my computer, as well as the Bible one. Its a great show for entertainment, but this still is a rebuttal of some of the information as far as Moses and Jesus. The whole Apollonious arguement is completely wrong. He was disproved and never had any documentation that he could preform miracles until hundreds of years later when it was made up.

First response to Penn and Teller's The Bible is Bull****

I was recently asked to respond to one of Penn and Teller's episodes labeled "The Bible is Bull****", two claims in particular - that of the supposed lack of archaeological evidence for the Bible and a comparison between Christ and another supposed "messiah" of that time, Apollonius. When I get more time, I'll respond to the other claims in the episode, but for now, let’s first look at the archaeological claims made in the video clip and then look at the question of Apollonius.

Penn and Teller’s “expert” claims that, “The more we learn about archaeology and history of biblical times, we realize that most of the stuff in the Bible is fiction. It is an article of faith. It is part of a religious system that really doesn’t fit the way we think when we think scientifically and live in the age of science where we're supposed to have evidence and challenge beliefs." This claim is simply false. There are 25,000 archaeological digs that confirm events, places, and people of the Bible and not one that refutes it. Let’s look at just some of these from both the Old and New Testaments.

Old Testament scholar Gleason Archer documents a number of archaeological findings that give credence to the historicity of Israel. For example, the discovery of the Ebla tablets (2350-1600 B.C.) in Syria provides very early documentation of names, places, and ideas presented in the Torah (such as naming the father of Abraham). Further, an Egyptian reference to the Hebrew nation as “Israel” was discovered on the Stela of King Merneptah in 1896, and dates back to 1229 B.C. The City of Ur in Southern Sumeria was excavated in 1922 and found to be a large and flourishing city at around 2000 B.C. – precisely the time in which Abraham lived. Finally, Egyptian texts dating back to about 1820 B.C. speak of Palestine communities being bound under Egyptian rule.

In addition, an Egyptian stele was found in the temple at Thebes, which gives the earliest known mention of Israel. It is a 7.5 foot high funerary monument of Pharaoh Merneptah, who ruled from 1213 to 1203 B.C. These monuments outlined a Pharaoh's lifetime accomplishments were written for his tombstone prior to his death. He refers to conquering Israel (among others) and says, "Israel is laid waste, his seed (people) is not." Israel is referred to as "a people," that is, they were already known and acknowledged as a distinct ethnic group.

Diodorus Siculus, a Greek Historian from Sicily living from 80 BC to approximately 15 BC (20 years before Christ's birth) wrote, "In ancient times there happened a great plague in Egypt, and many ascribed the cause of it to God, who was offended with them because there were many strangers in the land, by whom foreign rites and ceremonies were employed in their worship of the deity. The Egyptians concluded; therefore, that unless all strangers were driven out of the country, they should never be freed from their miseries."

Josephus (a Jewish Historian; born A.D. 37) in Josephus Against Apion. I, 26, 27, 32 mentions two Egyptian priest-scholars: Manetho and Cheremon who in their histories of Egypt specifically named Joseph and Moses as leaders of the Jewish race. Josephus states that Manetho and Cheremon stated that the Jews rejected Egypt’s customs and gods.

Further, Penn and Teller’s “expert” relies on the worst argument one can have – an argument from silence. But as demonstrated above, such is not the case. Also, keep in mind that the Israelites were nomadic during their wilderness wanderings so it’s not expected that much would be recovered or found regarding their journey.

Turning to the New Testament, here are some of the finds that scholars are in possession of:


Jesus’ half-brother James (martyred in A.D. 62) coffin was found in 1955; the inscription reads “James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus”
The city of Nazareth was uncovered in 1955
An inscription to Caiaphas was found in 1990 and dated to be A.D. 10-36
The name of Pilate (as prefect of Judea) was found in 1961 and dated to be A.D. 26-37
Regarding Luke’s mention of rulers in his Gospel and Acts: various ruler names discovered in Delphi, Corinth and other sites that validate dating and individuals mentioned

With respect to the book of Acts: Historian C. J. Hemer has recorded hundreds of details in Acts that map to excavation findings
A crucifixion victim found in 1968 that matches perfectly with account given in Gospels (legs broken, etc.)
The name of Erastus (Corinth city treasurer, Rom 16:23) found in 1929 in Corinth pavement with label “Erastus, curator of public buildings”
The tomb of Lazarus – the man Jesus raised from the dead – was found in the 900’s in the city of Larnaca on Cyprus. The inscription on the sarcophagus reads, “Lazarus, bishop of Larnaca. Four days dead. Friend of Jesus”.
In his book Why I Believe, Dr. James Kennedy relays the story of Sir William Ramsey who devoted his whole life to disproving the Bible. He was a respected, wealthy atheist with a Ph.D. from Oxford. In attempting to disprove the Bible, he unearthed hundreds of findings that confirmed its accuracy. After 25 years of digging, he shocked the whole critical world by declaring himself to be a Christian.

So we revisit the statement of Penn and Teller’s “expert” who said, “The more we learn about archaeology and history of biblical times, we realize that most of the stuff in the Bible is fiction…” and find his statement to be fiction instead.

Regarding the video’s “expert” claim of Apollonius mirroring Jesus to the letter, this is just one of many false comparisons and exaggerations of individuals who the New Testament writers supposedly copied in their portrayal of Jesus. Besides Apollonius, there are claims about Jesus being nothing more than a reinvention of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus, and others.

The only written account of the life of Apollonius of Tyana (d. A.D. 98) is chronicled by a writer named Philostratus in his work, Life of Apollonius. The biography, however, ends with Apollonius’ death (so no resurrection like Jesus) and there is nothing supernatural whatsoever – no miracles or other parallels to the work that Christ performed. The only supposed “appearing” of Apollonius was to a man while he slept – a vision 200 years after Apollonius is to have lived. It was only later after his death that legends began to creep in about Apollonius, and all post-date the writing of the New Testament so if there is copycat work afoot, it is not Christianity doing the copying.

Further, unlike the New Testament events and claims that are historically verifiable, Philostratus’ work contains numerous geographical and historical inaccuracies (e.g. Nineveh and Babylon were destroyed 300 years earlier, etc.)

Lastly, all of the exact parallels claimed by the “expert” in the video clip are not be found in the written account of Apollonius. This unfortunate act of either intentional or unintentional spreading of misinformation is repeated again and again when it comes to comparing Jesus to other supposed “messiahs”. Not surprisingly, there is not a scholar with an opposing viewpoint on Penn and Teller’s video so no one can hear an informed rebuttal.

In the beginning of their video, Penn says, “"If you believe that the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you … they pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. They think God will bless them for that. But if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so *******"

Nothing could be further from the truth. Believing in God or the historicity of the Bible is not hard at all; in fact it takes far more faith to be an atheist when the philosophical and historical evidence is examined.

Unfortunately, Penn and Teller, along with those like them, have no interest in actually examining the facts. So if they believe the Bible isn’t real because of faith, we can’t touch them. They pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. But if they want reason or facts or historical evidence to back up their claims that the Bible isn’t accurate, they are so … ah … “in trouble”.

[99hatch]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:

-- Corithians 11:14: Men with long hair should be shameful. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES OF JESUS YOU WORSHIP?????!!!

-- Corithians 11:19-24: A man shall not go near a woman while she is on her period. Common sense says yes, but try to enforce THAT.


Also it doesnt state in the Bible that Jesus had long Hair, Nor were there pictures of him. Many pictures also depict Jesus as white. Although we know he was a Jew in the Middle east. So bashing pictures has nothing to do with the Bible. Pictures is just someone's ideal of what he may have looked like. But clearly Jesus was not white. He may have had long hair, as Im sure they didnt have Barber shops back then. But we will not know for sure.

Secondly there is no just "corithians" There is 1st and 2nd Corithians.

1 Corithians: 19-24 states:
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.





2 Corithians 11:19-24 states:

19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.





Neither of those talks about dont go near a woman on her period.

[SPOOLIN]

holy shit you guys are going off...and about darwin converting to christianity on his death bed...

What person right before they are about to be in some serious shit doesn't say..."oh god!"

or, "god?....if there is a god....please help me"

LOL

[99hatch]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:
- Genesis chap 1&2: There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES on Adam and Eve. In the first chapter, God creates Adam and Eve AT THE SAME TIME. In the second chapter, he creates Adam, starts creating animals and plants on the Earth, THEN creates Eve out of Adams rib. Which one happened?


Its not that they are completely different. Genesis 1 is more of a Outline of what happened where Genesis 2 is more detail, as it stats in Gensis 2:4: 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

Then goes further into explaining that Even was made from one of Adams Ribs. So its not that they are any different. Also in Genesis 1 it states

7 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

So it obviously states that he made man in his own image, then talks about creating a female. So i dont see how the stories are completely different. Just shortened.

[99hatch]

holy shit you guys are going off...and about darwin converting to christianity on his death bed...

What person right before they are about to be in some serious shit doesn't say..."oh god!"

or, "god?....if there is a god....please help me"

LOL

Well Baby J and I are having a discussion, and what do you expect when 2 people stand on 2 different sides of the Fence. Personally I really Enjoying discussing Religion with someone who does not get offended and can offer some perspective from the other side.

About Darwin: Why would someone like Darwin, who was dedicated to disproving God say Oh God, or if there is a God help me. He didnt just say that according to the information we have. This excerpt is from the book that claims he did become a Christian before he died:
It was one of those glorious autumn afternoons, that we sometimes enjoy in England, when I was asked to go in and sit with the well known professor, Charles Darwin. He was almost bedridden for some months before he died. I used to feel when I saw him that his fine presence would make a grand picture for our Royal Academy; but never did I think so more strongly than on this particular occasion.

He was sitting up in bed, wearing a soft embroidered dressing gown, of rather a rich purple shade.

Propped up by pillows, he was gazing out on a far-stretching scene of woods and cornfields, which glowed in the light of one of those marvelous sunsets which are the beauty of Kent and Surrey. His noble forehead and fine features seem to be lit up with pleasure as I entered the room.

He waved his hand toward the window as he pointed out the scene beyond, while in the other hand he held an open Bible, which he was always studying.

"What are you reading now?" I asked as I seated myself beside his bedside. "Hebrews!" he answered - "still Hebrews. 'The Royal Book' I call it. Isn't it grand?"
Then, placing his finger on certain passages, he commented on them.

I made some allusions to the strong opinions expressed by many persons on the history of the Creation, its grandeur, and then their treatment of the earlier chapters of the Book of Genesis.

He seemed greatly distressed, his fingers twitched nervously, and a look of agony came over his face as he said: "I was a young man with unformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions, wondering all the time over everything, and to my astonishment, the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion of them."

Then he paused, and after a few more sentences on "the holiness of God" and the "grandeur of this book," looking at the Bible which he was holding tenderly all the time, he suddenly said: "I have a summer house in the garden which holds about thirty people. It is over there," pointing through the open window. "I want you very much to speak there. I know you read the Bible in the villages. To-morrow afternoon I should like the servants on the place, some tenants and a few of the neighbours; to gather there. Will you speak to them?"
"What shall I speak about?" I asked.

"Christ Jesus!" he replied in a clear, emphatic voice, adding in a lower tone, "and his salvation. Is not that the best theme? And then I want you to sing some hymns with them. You lead on your small instrument, do you not?" The wonderful look of brightness and animation on his face as he said this I shall never forget, for he added: "If you take the meeting at three o'clock this window will be open, and you will know that I am joining in with the singing."

How I wished I could have made a picture of the fine old man and his beautiful surroundings on that memorable day!



Another example is Dr. James Kennedy is another person who spent the better part of his life trying to disprove the Bible and became a Christian.

In his book Why I Believe, Dr. James Kennedy relays the story of Sir William Ramsey who devoted his whole life to disproving the Bible. He was a respected, wealthy atheist with a Ph.D. from Oxford. In attempting to disprove the Bible, he unearthed hundreds of findings that confirmed its accuracy. After 25 years of digging, he shocked the whole critical world by declaring himself to be a Christian.

[Paul]

holy shit you guys are going off...and about darwin converting to christianity on his death bed...

What person right before they are about to be in some serious shit doesn't say..."oh god!"

or, "god?....if there is a god....please help me"

LOL

the key word was "claims" he converted... this is a nice way for Christians to get the last word of a dying man :rolleyes:

don't drink the juice!

[99hatch]

the key word was "claims" he converted... this is a nice way for Christians to get the last word of a dying man :rolleyes:

don't drink the juice!

I stated that, as I am completely aware of the Facts. Like i said there are many others, but show me where he didnt?

[Paul]

I stated that, as I am completely aware of the Facts. Like i said there are many others, but show me where he didnt?

well considering no one is alive that was then how can anyone have proof of such? i guess you just have to have "faith" :rolleyes:

men w/ conviction don't change their belief system even in the face of death furthermore he was intelligent enough to understand that blasphemy is unforgivable so he could never be saved.

[BABY J]

^^ Man --- are you from some planet where they have like "common sense" or something? Amazing.

[SPOOLIN]

the key word was "claims" he converted... this is a nice way for Christians to get the last word of a dying man :rolleyes:

don't drink the juice!


i was just meaning that he didn't convert. it was a fluke of typical speech lol.

[90_ACCORD]

it doesnt matter what anyone believes because no one will never know for sure. so if someone tries to tell you a certain number tell them to fuck off cuz they dont know what there talking about.

[Starrfire]

so basically saying that if they find any life on any other planet will totally make sense, and apparently be able to be wrung out of some scripture. The bible was written by people hundreds of years past the original events. The events themselves were carried on by stories. THE BIBLE IS NOT TRUTH!!! It was never intended to be. It was supposed to be a book of stories to get people to embrace morals. Religion and most of its followers are freaking retarded.

[man]

it doesnt matter what anyone believes because no one will never know for sure. so if someone tries to tell you a certain number tell them to fuck off cuz they dont know what there talking about.

Truth. And who cares about Darwin? Why don't we let a real genius handle this...

Albert Einstein

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."

"In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views."

"We know nothing about [God, the world] at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. Possibly we shall know a little more than we do now. but the real nature of things, that we shall never know, never."

"I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one?"

"What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos."


You idiots, once again on both sides of the argument, are so sure of your views (read: CLOSED-minded) yet one of the greatest mind of all time disagrees with both sides... :screwy:

[WhiteAccord]

Besides all of the google searches...

There is no god. Took me 19 years to figure it out, after being fed a whole bunch of bull shit. Show me a god, and I will bow down to you. Show me what he can do for me...

"God" is just there to provide you comfort, something for you to look forward to, and be given hope. God cant help you.. And he never will. Why would he help you?

Your belief is illogical, and you fail if you believe in any higher being.

Its funny, if "God" loves us and wants to look out for us, why does he make us all different in every aspect and expect us to shape outselves for him to get somewhere we do not know exists. Why do we have to change ourselves to make us good for him?

Gods/Jesus/Whothefuckcares... Does not exist... We just have to wait to see how long it will take most ignorant believers to understand the troof. Night.

[man]

Besides all of the google searches...

There is no god. Took me 19 years to figure it out, after being fed a whole bunch of bull shit. Show me a god, and I will bow down to you. Show me what he can do for me...

"God" is just there to provide you comfort, something for you to look forward to, and be given hope. God cant help you.. And he never will. Why would he help you?

Your belief is illogical, and you fail if you believe in any higher being.

Its funny, if "God" loves us and wants to look out for us, why does he make us all different in every aspect and expect us to shape outselves for him to get somewhere we do not know exists. Why do we have to change ourselves to make us good for him?

Gods/Jesus/Whothefuckcares... Does not exist... We just have to wait to see how long it will take most ignorant believers to understand the troof. Night.

Oh man, a whole 19 years... wow with all that life experience how could anyone doubt you. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time for a press conference.

The debate is over.

[BABY J]

"During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world."
- Albert Einstein, quoted in: 2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930

(Note that several of us were lambasted for just the position voiced above earlier in this thread.)

"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. "
- Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

"Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. ..."
- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)

put that on your plate

[DynamicSound]

bible swimmers are the ones that believe that crap, it really gets old. I know people who just totally disregard that dinosaurs are 65 million years old...carbon dating tells you that. Some disregard dinosaurs altogether or believe that we lived among them LOL.

Religious people will always disregard the facts. This is because once they believe the facts (they already do just don't want to admit) then majority of crap they believe in is BS. This is where the term "faith" comes in. You have to have faith. You basically have to go against all logic and facts and substitute fairy tails. They might as well believe in the tooth fairy because it makes the same amount of sense. It is truly sad. It is too bad that when that time comes to move on, they will never know they were wrong and wasted their life believing.

[99hatch]

It is truly sad. It is too bad that when that time comes to move on, they will never know they were wrong and wasted their life believing.

Let me ask you a question. How exactly would I be wasting my life. Maybe an hour every Sunday, plus a few hours here and there volunteering to help the less fortunate. Which is nice for people to do anyway. Plus a few hours here or there reading up on the bible, or trying to spread the word.

Lets give 2 examples

Me - Spent parts of my days going to church or helping people out. When i Die 2 things will happen. Either I (and other Christians) are right and there is a God. We go to heaven and live a happy eternal life. As it has been promised to us. Or there is no God as you believe. Nothing happens when I die, but at least I spent my life in Good spirits and helping people.

You - Doing whatever you do, same as me but without the church and maybe without the volunteering. (maybe you do, maybe you don't, people don't have to be a Christian to help people) When you die, if your wrong you will spend eternity in Hell, being tortured. Or there is no God and nothing happens when you die. How much more out of life did you get than me.

I still spent my days happy, pleased with myself and with God or without as you see it. Maybe you were happy too. So if there is a God we will have completely different endings. If there is not, we will end up the same. I haven't wasted anything.

I could see how someone could believe that "Religion" was made up by men to keep people in line. I don't agree with it, but i can definitely see the other side. But how could you think there is no God. Look around. How could the ECO system, the animals, the food chain, the oceans and everything in this world and Universe be put together by chance. Its beyond impossible. Even the Albert Eisenstein said that even if he didn't believe in Religion, he believes there is a God.

[DynamicSound]

God is also man made.

Only counting the 1 hour per Sunday, from the age of 18 to say 68, you have wasted over 108 days of your life believeing in something that does not exist and which you have NO proof that does.

BTW...that does not count the time you get dressed for church, the time you drive to church, the time you get undressed from church. So if you count that you have wated 2-3 times that amount.

[Paul]

Me - Spent parts of my days going to church or helping people out. When i Die 2 things will happen. Either I (and other Christians) are right and there is a God. We go to heaven and live a happy eternal life. As it has been promised to us. Or there is no God as you believe. Nothing happens when I die, but at least I spent my life in Good spirits and helping people.


not trying to be a dick...

if you only doing shit to insure you place in imagination land then whatever works for you but don't think for a second that people who don't believe don't live for filling lives nor help society any less. religion has done far more damage to society than good; this needs no explaining and with the amount of revenue religions brings in each year i'm sure it is in the Trillions they could of cured cancer or hiv. :goodjob:

it always cracks me up when people say well "what if your wrong your going to hell"... what the fuck is hell to someone that doesn't believe in it?

[DynamicSound]

not trying to be a dick...

if you only doing shit to insure you place in imagination land then whatever works for you but don't think for a second that people who don't believe don't live for filling lives nor help society any less. religion has done far more damage to society than good; this needs no explaining and with the amount of revenue religions brings in each year i'm sure it is in the Trillions they could of cured cancer or hiv. :goodjob:

it always cracks me up when people say well "what if your wrong your going to hell"... what the fuck is hell to someone that doesn't believe in it?

Amen to that, lol.

Not to mention that the Jews are suppose to be the choosen people. Sounds like if I wanted a sure bet, I would be lining up behind them. Not the christians.

I love when people do or say bad things, then turn around and claim to be a christian. So they can do what they want, but as long as they believe, they will get into heaven. Get real, I am sure majority of religious people would be going to hell just like the rest of us that does not believe.

[BABY J]

Let me ask you a question. How exactly would I be wasting my life. Maybe an hour every Sunday, plus a few hours here and there volunteering to help the less fortunate. Which is nice for people to do anyway. Plus a few hours here or there reading up on the bible, or trying to spread the word.

Lets give 2 examples

Me - Spent parts of my days going to church or helping people out. When i Die 2 things will happen. Either I (and other Christians) are right and there is a God. We go to heaven and live a happy eternal life. As it has been promised to us. Or there is no God as you believe. Nothing happens when I die, but at least I spent my life in Good spirits and helping people.

You - Doing whatever you do, same as me but without the church and maybe without the volunteering. (maybe you do, maybe you don't, people don't have to be a Christian to help people) When you die, if your wrong you will spend eternity in Hell, being tortured. Or there is no God and nothing happens when you die. How much more out of life did you get than me.

I still spent my days happy, pleased with myself and with God or without as you see it. Maybe you were happy too. So if there is a God we will have completely different endings. If there is not, we will end up the same. I haven't wasted anything.

I could see how someone could believe that "Religion" was made up by men to keep people in line. I don't agree with it, but i can definitely see the other side. But how could you think there is no God. Look around. How could the ECO system, the animals, the food chain, the oceans and everything in this world and Universe be put together by chance. Its beyond impossible. Even the Albert Eisenstein said that even if he didn't believe in Religion, he believes there is a God.

Suggesting you have to be a Christian to have a sense of moral absolute, or that morality comes from the Christian God, is patently ridiculous. It absolutely ignores the majority of the world's population that manages to live a more peaceful and harmonious life than our Christian forebears and I maintain that's a superior "morality."

[man]

"During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world."
- Albert Einstein, quoted in: 2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930

(Note that several of us were lambasted for just the position voiced above earlier in this thread.)

"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. "
- Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

"Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. ..."
- Albert Einstein, Science and Religion (1941)

put that on your plate


Ummm... I don't see any ideas different than what I posted.

[BABY J]

^^ I didn't quote you. I just added his quotes (AND CITED THEM) that I think are more understandable.

[afwfjustin]

I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but carbon dating only works up to 50-60K years in the past. Any more than that and the carbon has already decayed.

To determine the millions of years thing, you must use radioisotope dating.

I got an A in both of my geology lab science classes at GSU so I'm kind of a big deal.

[afwfjustin]

The bible thumpers would want to hold onto the idea that the earth is only a couple thousand years old because if it were actually billions of years old, and humans only here a couple tens of thousands of years, then it makes the argument that god mad man in his own image a little less believable (that was not a run-on sentence!).

Atheism rocks.

[AlliRae]

aight... so is it good to say that neither side is completely right... and neither side is completely wrong ?

[BABY J]

This shit keeps getting more interesting.. .LOL. Good find Paul.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/may/19/ida-fossil-missing-link

[One_Bad_SHO]

This shit keeps getting more interesting.. .LOL. Good find Paul.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/may/19/ida-fossil-missing-link

I believe that there is no missing link. WE have always been here. They found fossilized human footprints 18 inches away from fossilized dinosaur footprints. They also found man made objects in layers of the Earth that are MILLIONS of years old.

:goodjob:

[BABY J]

^^ No way. Dirt-Age-Analysis V 2.0 isn't perfected yet -- that dirt could be only 6000 years old. :rolleyes:

[afwfjustin]

I believe that there is no missing link. WE have always been here. They found fossilized human footprints 18 inches away from fossilized dinosaur footprints. They also found man made objects in layers of the Earth that are MILLIONS of years old.

:goodjob:

jigga-what? do you have proof of this or can you link to anything?

[One_Bad_SHO]

jigga-what? do you have proof of this or can you link to anything?

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224135

[KoukiBlake]

I think its ridiculous when people try to take the creation of the universe as a proving point in god.

I believe humans in general cant stand not being able to figure something out so they turn to God for everything.

We cant figure out how the Earth was made or the Universe so that HAS to mean that a God had to put it here. A god had to create humans and all other forms of life.

Why cant it be possible that the Earth is just that "lucky" planet that was formed in the right part of the solar system that would allow life to grow.

The truth is that we will NEVER know how Humans or the Universe came to be. Not in my lifetime anyway and probably not in my childs lifetime either.

It could be possible that Aliens created us and put us on this planet as an experiment. Why? Who knows, but its possible. Nobody can discredit that with something like "Aliens dont exist thats bullshit haha moron" because I could just counter with there is no real life proof that God exists why is that theory so much more believable than the alien experiment.

I believe people just need something to believe in, something to keep them going I guess you could say. Nothing better than an almighty God that created everything and watches us from the stars.

[SPOOLIN]

how about the things they have been finding that point to PREVIOUS nuclear wars before our time. Like ancient buildings found in india that have melted on one side and fused...and skeletons that have 50 times the normal radiation levels.

[EJ25RUN]

best arguement I have heard came from a rabbi who said that the fossils put on Earth are a test of faith by G-d to see if you really believe


I'd laugh in his face. Oh wait, i've done it before.

[Mr. Clean]

ALRIGHT. i didn't read page 3 just FYI.

anyway.


why does science have to take precedence over faith? God is ageless. He created the heavens AND THE EARTH. so basically there is no science that disproves God. anything you try to explain can still be interpreted as being put there by God. don't get me wrong... i'm no bible thumper and certainly haven't been to church in quite some time and really just don't have the faith :dunno:. but that doesn't mean that i can't believe that there is someone (or being) that has put all this together. i don't understand why all the super christians want to try and discredit all the science that is coming out. while his human son is debatable, there is still no need to completely discredit a God.

and the earth is like 4.3 billion years old i think it was. they found the oldest pieces of rock from a crater. using a dating process on a certain type of rock. you can't fucking debate solid science.

[jdm eg99]

ALRIGHT. i didn't read page 3 just FYI.

anyway.


why does science have to take precedence over faith? God is ageless. He created the heavens AND THE EARTH. so basically there is no science that disproves God. anything you try to explain can still be interpreted as being put there by God. don't get me wrong... i'm no bible thumper and certainly haven't been to church in quite some time and really just don't have the faith :dunno:. but that doesn't mean that i can't believe that there is someone (or being) that has put all this together. i don't understand why all the super christians want to try and discredit all the science that is coming out. while his human son is debatable, there is still no need to completely discredit a God.

and the earth is like 4.3 billion years old i think it was. they found the oldest pieces of rock from a crater. using a dating process on a certain type of rock. you can't fucking debate solid science. very true i watched a show on tv a few weeks ago about earth good show might i add. very intertaining aswell i beleave in god i go to chruch once n a while but like Mr.Clean said science is fact not fiction. or how ever the fuck you spell it. lol

[SPOOLIN]

havn't you guys seen men in black? We're being played with in a marble by some alien.

maybe we are a second life program, i mean hell we did create our own second life program LOL, kinda like "the 13th floor" movie.

[Total_Blender]

Albert Einstein

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."


"We know nothing about [God, the world] at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. Possibly we shall know a little more than we do now. but the real nature of things, that we shall never know, never."

"What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos."

.

"Unattainable secrets," "we will never know, never"... etc are statements that go against the scientific method and the aesthetic of science. The goal of science is to search for answers to every question. To simply dismiss something as an "unattainable secret" is a crock.

[Master Shake]

i don't now man, i just find it so hard to able to to say how old something is without really knowing. carbon dating can only give a general time frame. and honestly, i think some of that shit the media puts out, not all of it, is straight bullshit. i mean, entertainment sells. its a good way to get people to pick up the mag or whatever and get things going just so they will come back for more.

[Vteckidd]

I dont know if its been said already cause im not reading all this but i have heard people say that in the bible what we think of as a calendar year is not what they believed in.

Like God didnt really make the earth and heavens in 7 days, to us it would have been millions of years.

I have heard that argument.

[trini_gsr]

the Bible creation story (it's actually 2 stories combined if you read carefully) actually borrows from other, older creation stories, and is meant to be taken allegorically. it's really a parable describing mankind's fall from "grace". I've also heard arguments that the Adam/Eve story is really not about a couple, but more about man finding the balance between his yin/yang masculine/feminine energy, etc.

anyways to stay on topic...i agree it's pretty stupid for anyone to think in this day and age that the earth is 6000 years old or evolution isn't real. i mean...honestly speaking...if you graduated from HS you should know better. remember when mainstream christianity swore that the earth was the center of the universe??? LOL

[99hatch]

I dont know if its been said already cause im not reading all this but i have heard people say that in the bible what we think of as a calendar year is not what they believed in.

Like God didnt really make the earth and heavens in 7 days, to us it would have been millions of years.

I have heard that argument.

Sort of. To God there is no such thing as time. Think about it, we on Earth base time on 1 full rotation of the earth, then 1 year is a full rotation around the sun. Well God doesnt live on earth, so there is no such thing as time to him. Therefore its not like 1 day to God is 24 hours. To God there is no time, he has already seen the past, present and Future.

[BABY J]

^^ Did he tell you that?

[SPOOLIN]

^^ Did he tell you that?

lol yeah it was told to him through a huge game of "secret message" ...you know that game you play in middle school where the message starts on one side of the room and ends up insanely different when it gets to the other

[BABY J]

HAHAH - thumpers are SOOO funny.