Do you believe in God? Simple question

[IndianStig]

Yes or no? Do you believe its real?

[stillaneon]

this will blow up

[Bus Driver J]

Nope, devout Atheist :D

[tinkolby_25]

Nope, devout Atheist :D

reppin the atheism

[BobbyFresco]

Short answer, no.

[EJ25RUN]

undecided option needed.

[C-loS109]

yes i believe in a god/superior being but i dont believe on religions and what they stand for.

[AirMax95]

I voted yes, but it's deeper than just a guy sitting at a throne in the sky.


Think about it.

[mocha latte cupcake]

i do. plain and simple. the big man keeps an eye on me @ all times...

[LizBiz]

Me me me!!! I do! Can't tell me different.

[Dr.G35]

sure do:yes:

[stillaneon]

undecided option needed.

sorry Indianstig. Saw this as a viable option.

Added

[RL...]

I believe in a higher power. Now whether that higher power might be what we refer to as nature, maybe a god, maybe 10 gods, I think it is easier to believe that a "Creator" created everything rather than the big bang theory.

I am not a religious person, but sometimes, things work out so unexpected but so perfectly that it seems liek there is someone else up there. Like there is something indeed spiritual about this world and everything beyond it.

[IndianStig]

sorry Indianstig. Saw this as a viable option.

Added

It was late I forgot about that. Good choice adding it.

[qwick]

No I dont believe he/she/it/they are real.

[03RCode]

i do. plain and simple. the big man keeps an eye on me @ all times...


x2.

[dulcenena101]

i believe that we all need a higher power when we feel low...im not gonna say that god is a human being..it can be anything.....it can be anything u want it to be...the point is that it exist and itz wat helps us and motivates us and inspires us.. its that power when we get good things in our life...soo yea i call it my god.,..so yes i believe in god

[vonrak]

:lmfao::chuckles:yes, i believe in myself.

[tinkolby_25]

why should i believe in something because i have always been told too?
and why should i believe in something because of the fear of damnation?
religion just seems like a communist country to me, it is surrounded by the thought that hey you better believe in me and my beliefs or after you die you will burn forever.

that is just retarded to me
im a realist, im not gonna believe in anything that i do not have proof is there

thats like me saying hey i think the cookie monster created the world, and if i got enough people rallying behind me the whole world would believe it

now im not trying to push my beliefs on you, but im just saying hey think about it, and maybe you could understand where i am coming from

that is all

[sport_122]

umm why do you believe that the sun is a ball of fire? Why do you believe in gravity? why do you believe that 1 plus 1 is 2? All of this is because someone told you. But you don't question these things, do you. Proof is just as much perception as anything else. When you learned to read you didn't ask someone to prove the alphabet works the way it does...did you?

all proof is is interpretation of something. 100 people could look at the same thing and get something different from it 100 times.

fear is not the reason to believe in God, damnation is not the reason either. Anyone who tells you that is wrong. Its not about death its about life, its not about hate its about love. you are judging the entire concept off of the misquotations and poor actions of a few who don't even represent the majority.

[90_ACCORD]

yes...simple answer

[RL...]

why should i believe in something because i have always been told too?
and why should i believe in something because of the fear of damnation?
religion just seems like a communist country to me, it is surrounded by the thought that hey you better believe in me and my beliefs or after you die you will burn forever.

that is just retarded to me
im a realist, im not gonna believe in anything that i do not have proof is there

thats like me saying hey i think the cookie monster created the world, and if i got enough people rallying behind me the whole world would believe it

now im not trying to push my beliefs on you, but im just saying hey think about it, and maybe you could understand where i am coming from

that is all

I'm a realist too, but do you really think the universe started as a ball concentrated mass/energy, exploded and VIOLA, here we are billions of years later...?

You should only believe in something that you have faith in, whatever that is....but it seems your perspective is skewed....

[tinkolby_25]

I'm a realist too, but do you really think the universe started as a ball concentrated mass/energy, exploded and VIOLA, here we are billions of years later...?


You should only believe in something that you have faith in, whatever that is....but it seems your perspective is skewed....

where in that mass did i say i believed in the big bang theory?
honestly i dunno what to believe as far as the universe getting here
maybe some guy living in the sky did create all of this, but i believe all that is highly unlikely

prove me wrong:goodjob:

[RL...]

where in that mass did i say i believed in the big bang theory?
honestly i dunno what to believe as far as the universe getting here
maybe some guy living in the sky did create all of this, but i believe all that is highly unlikely

prove me wrong:goodjob:

lol

I will not try to prove you wrong, especially since you don't even know what you believe in...

[stillaneon]

I'm a realist too, but do you really think the universe started as a ball concentrated mass/energy, exploded and VIOLA, here we are billions of years later...?

You should only believe in something that you have faith in, whatever that is....but it seems your perspective is skewed....


so

http://www.dreamstime.com/energy-ball-thumb1892829.jpg

+

http://www.dsokids.com/art/instruments/photo1200viola.jpg


=

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/earth_1_apollo17.gif

:thinking: :thinking:

[RL...]

so

http://www.dreamstime.com/energy-ball-thumb1892829.jpg

+

http://www.dsokids.com/art/instruments/photo1200viola.jpg


=

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/earth_1_apollo17.gif

:thinking: :thinking:

lolol

[jonathanjone]

umm why do you believe that the sun is a ball of fire? Why do you believe in gravity? why do you believe that 1 plus 1 is 2? All of this is because someone told you. But you don't question these things, do you. Proof is just as much perception as anything else. When you learned to read you didn't ask someone to prove the alphabet works the way it does...did you?

lol, contrary to popular belief... i did question this lol. i asked who made these like this? why is it abc and not dan or something lol. yes.... i may be retarded...

[sport_122]

lol, contrary to popular belief... i did question this lol. i asked who made these like this? why is it abc and not dan or something lol. yes.... i may be retarded...

sorry, that's not what I meant. The question was to show that unless YOU go to the sun, you are subjected to only what people around you can tell you. So in order for you to believe in ANYTHING you are going to be subject to people that teach you how to look at the world. The way people teach you will also effect how you learn when you go about finding knowledge on your own.

[RL...]

sorry, that's not what I meant. The question was to show that unless YOU go to the sun, you are subjected to only what people around you can tell you. So in order for you to believe in ANYTHING you are going to be subject to people that teach you how to look at the world. The way people teach you will also effect how you learn when you go about finding knowledge on your own.

The things that ppl teach you and how they influence you aren't the reason why we do the things we do, or believe the things we believe. We are subjected to not only the teachings but of our own thoughts, beliefs, and ideas. No one taught me how to look at the world the way I do, but we form our own opinions of how things work and we create something for ourselves to believe in...

I think your post seems ambiguous and badly written because it doesn't make that much sense to me

[zimabog]

its funny how people use "big bang" in their argument against religion when in fact the maker of that theory was more religious than all of you combined. any theory that did not include some sort of creation would go against his beliefs. Its cute that people thing the universe had a creation. Most people have no concept of true infinity. Expanding redshift is easily explained when you talk about it in a localized pattern. And apparent expansion is easily explained when you realize the viewer (us) is rotating on multiple axises surrounded by other celestial bodies rotating on multiple axises.... relative motion. Recently astronomers have found an exploding star that is 13 billion light years away. That star would have had to form, live out its life, and then explode...all in less than 500 million years according to that theory in order for us to see that explosion today. If you do believe in the "big bang", its better to think about the 13.5 billion years since supposed "creation" not as an age, but as a time since the instant of last total collapse. As a true "creation" is hysterical.

Proud atheist/agnostic

[_Christian_]

umm why do you believe that the sun is a ball of fire? Why do you believe in gravity? why do you believe that 1 plus 1 is 2? All of this is because someone told you. But you don't question these things, do you. Proof is just as much perception as anything else. Yeah, those things can't be proven :rolleyes:

[The Creeper]

Jesus saves.

[quickdodge®]

I think your post seems ambiguous and badly written because it doesn't make that much sense to me

Wouldn't it be better written if you just stated that it doesn't make sense to you because you don't have the capability to understand? No one has ever been able to comprehend you. No one has ever thought, nissantuner makes sense. You're always the butt of ridicule, man. So I don't think his post was badly written. It's just you're incapable of rationale. Later, QD.

[schia89]

yes i believe in a god/superior being but i dont believe on religions and what they stand for.
x2

[RL...]

Wouldn't it be better written if you just stated that it doesn't make sense to you because you don't have the capability to understand? No one has ever been able to comprehend you. No one has ever thought, nissantuner makes sense. You're always the butt of ridicule, man. So I don't think his post was badly written. It's just you're incapable of rationale. Later, QD.

qd seriously, I'm flattered, but I do not like you. I am NOT gay, so please stop following me around this forum. It is getting old, and you are getting old. His post was poorly written, and you suck at life. :rolleyes:

[quickdodge®]

His post was poorly written, and you suck at life. :rolleyes:

Again. It isn't his post, dude. It's you. Later, QD.

[gottraction?]

I def. voted yes! Ive witness his miracles day in and day out!

[BABY J]

umm why do you believe that the sun is a ball of fire? Why do you believe in gravity? why do you believe that 1 plus 1 is 2? All of this is because someone told you. But you don't question these things, do you. Proof is just as much perception as anything else. When you learned to read you didn't ask someone to prove the alphabet works the way it does...did you?

all proof is is interpretation of something. 100 people could look at the same thing and get something different from it 100 times.

fear is not the reason to believe in God, damnation is not the reason either. Anyone who tells you that is wrong. Its not about death its about life, its not about hate its about love. you are judging the entire concept off of the misquotations and poor actions of a few who don't even represent the majority.

http://seriouscustoms.com/lmao/bush_uhhh.gif

[BABY J]

umm why do you believe that the sun is a ball of fire? .

B/c I know what fire is. I know what a ball is... put the 2 together and you have a fucking sun genius.


Why do you believe in gravity?


Jump off a bridge. You will believe in it, or die trying not too.



why do you believe that 1 plus 1 is 2?
.

So do you.

[Jblizzard]

Yes I do



Read 90 Minutes in Heaven. (and no i dont believe now just because of the book)

[RL...]

Again. It isn't his post, dude. It's you. Later, QD.

The CVCC (or Controlled Vortex Combustion Chamber) engine debuted in 1975. Offered alongside the standard Civic engine, the 53-horsepower CVCC engine displaced 1,488 cc and had a head design that promoted cleaner, more efficient combustion.

:lmfao::rolleyes:

[Puddin4489]

Just a little something to think about...the bible was written forever ago...it says that God sent his only son...and the bible cleary states events that are to come and they are happening now!! Who can predict the future like that??? God is real!!

[RL...]

Just a little something to think about...the bible was written forever ago...it says that God sent his only son...and the bible cleary states events that are to come and they are happening now!! Who can predict the future like that??? God is real!!

it was written forever ago..lolol

The so called prophecies that ppl seem to think are coming true are written so vaguely that there is no way to determine if it was actually talking about specific incidences or not...

[Puddin4489]

Try getting out of your little self determined life and read outside of the box...its pretty simple...no offense

[_Christian_]

Just a little something to think about...the bible was written forever ago...it says that God sent his only son...and the bible cleary states events that are to come and they are happening now!! Who can predict the future like that??? God is real!!
:lmfao::lmfao: Hey, you should come over to my house. I'm having a kool-aid party... :bigdance::dj:

[DynamicSound]

No. IMO, religion and believing in a God or a superior being is for pathetic people that need something to believe in. It helps them get through there life because they have faith in something after life. This is it. Instead of people living their life and enjoying it while they are here, they focus on that there is something greater than them. As said before, it is for people that need to believe in something. IMO, the world would be a much better place if religion did not exist. There are too many horrible things in this world that are there because of religion. On top of this, none of it makes any sense...unless you believe. Because you have to have faith to overlook all the BS. I went to church when I was young and loved how every religion think they have it right. I heard a ministor/preacher say one time that only a few Jews will get into heaven. However, they are God's chosen people...hmm, makes a lot of sense to me. Simply put, you are a sheep if you honestly think that there is a "superior being" up there pulling strings. Or if you believe in a Bible that was written over 1800 years. Do you honestly think this is the word of Christ? 1800 years later and some guy can get it right? Give me a break. Overall, it is very sad.

BTW...as far as the "predictions" anyone can say vague preditions and then wait to see if they happens thousands of years later. Once again, this is something that you have convinced yourself is true so that it can support your belief in something that clearly does not exist.

[Puddin4489]

:lmfao::lmfao: Hey, you should come over to my house. I'm having a kool-aid party... :bigdance::dj:

Wait..what???????? lol

[Puddin4489]

No. IMO, religion and believing in a God or a superior being is for pathetic people that need something to believe in. It helps them get through there life because they have faith in something after life. This is it. Instead of people living their life and enjoying it while they are here, they focus on that there is something greater than them. As said before, it is for people that need to believe in something. IMO, the world would be a much better place if religion did not exist. There are too many horrible things in this world that are there because of religion. On top of this, none of it makes any sense...unless you believe. Because you have to have faith to overlook all the BS. I went to church when I was young and loved how every religion think they have it right. I heard a ministor/preacher say one time that only a few Jews will get into heaven. However, they are God's chosen people...hmm, makes a lot of sense to me. Simply put, you are a sheep if you honestly think that there is a "superior being" up there pulling strings. Or if you believe in a Bible that was written over 1800 years. Do you honestly think this is the word of Christ? 1800 years later and some guy can get it right? Give me a break. Overall, it is very sad.

BTW...as far as the "predictions" anyone can say vague preditions and then wait to see if they happens thousands of years later. Once again, this is something that you have convinced yourself is true so that it can support your belief in something that clearly does not exist.

Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion...I However know that God is real and will not second guess him or denounce him. That is one thing I highly am against. God has shown my too many things in life to turn on him and I am personally scared to death of hell...I can't speak for your preacher or whatever you heard. You have to read the bible and determine what you take it as. But this world is only getting worse and what I read in the bible and determine it as comes true so I believe

[_Christian_]

Wait..what???????? lol
Oh, sorry.. I thought you like to drink the Kool-Aid. :D

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drink+the+kool-aid

[DynamicSound]

Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion...I However know that God is real and will not second guess him or denounce him. That is one thing I highly am against. God has shown my too many things in life to turn on him and I am personally scared to death of hell...I can't speak for your preacher or whatever you heard. You have to read the bible and determine what you take it as. But this world is only getting worse and what I read in the bible and determine it as comes true so I believe

I too believe that everyone should have there own opinion. If I had children, I would allow them to choose to believe in it or not. I simply do not.

With that being said...how do you know God is real? Your only claim that because good things happen to you. That is sad that it is what is helping you hold onto your faith. What about the millions of people that believe and good things do not happen to them? Is God only looking after you? Millions of people die including children that do not even have a chance to believe, but there is a God because you have had good things happen in your life. Get real. Good and bad things happen to all of us. I overall have 90% of good things happen to me and I flat out say there is NO GOD...period. In your mind, when something good happens, you chalk it up to God. That is it. Just like I can chalk it up to being a good person, being successful, doing the right thing, or just plain ass luck. So everytime you chalk something up to God, remember all the people just like you that believe and it doesn't happen to them. Oh right, it is all in God's plan...right? That is the only answer religious people can fall back on when their logic makes no sense. Sad, very sad.

BTW, as far as the "preacher"...that was just an example. I have been to several churches and have been around plenty of religious people. My opinion comes from the complete bullshit that is religion. I simply had a mind of my own and can see that it is BS.

Also, it sounds like you also believe because you are scared of hell. :lmfao:

[sport_122]

B/c I know what fire is. I know what a ball is... put the 2 together and you have a fucking sun genius.



Jump off a bridge. You will believe in it, or die trying not too.



So do you.


Well if you want to make sense of my post then you need to read what it is reference to and the statements that I was replying to.

For anyone who says they don't believe in something "just because someone says so" or "they only believe what is proven by science" then they are leaving out the very REAL part of the equation.

The person who taught you that the sun was "a ball of fire" or the person who told you that red was red. You don't just KNOW unless you have some sort of knowledge on the subject that is taught and explained to you. If and when, you have kids lock them in a room with a book and they will not learn how to read. They have to be taught by someone, or something.

also in reply to the previous post

Nobody on this thread has original knowledge, and nobody on this thread is saying anything that has not been said before. So nobody on this thread can truthfully say that they learned everything and explain everything completely based on their own learning or logic. Someone else wrote the book, someone else laid the foundations for the research so we are all subject to opinions based on someone else.

So, how do you define logic? Lots of people have used the word, but by its very definition it is subjective. What is logic to you may not be logic to me. If that is the case how can you justify, YOUR logic as correct in comparison to someone else?

That in and of itself puts the burden of proof on both parties. Just as many theists struggle to understand and verbalize their reasons for believing in God, the non-theist also cannot prove the lack of existence of God. In all of the experience you have had, and all of the things you have known, your opinion remains subjective and personalized without the ability to prove.

The arguments that people have given so far are just mirrors of the reasons that theists give for believing in God. So what makes your argument or your stance better?

[Puddin4489]

How do you know air is real?? I dont have to have something physical in my face to believe it. I never said because good things happen to me I should believe in him. I have bad things happen to me all the time but it is my faith in God that gets me through. Everything happens for a reason

[DynamicSound]

Nobody on this thread has original knowledge, and nobody on this thread is saying anything that has not been said before. So nobody on this thread can truthfully say that they learned everything and explain everything completely based on their own learning or logic. Someone else wrote the book, someone else laid the foundations for the research so we are all subject to opinions based on someone else.

So, how do you define logic? Lots of people have used the word, but by its very definition it is subjective. What is logic to you may not be logic to me. If that is the case how can you justify, YOUR logic as correct in comparison to someone else?

This is just fail all over. As stated in the two posts by me, it is my opinion based on my own logic. All posts in this thread and throughout the world is based on that. We use our own experience and beliefs to determine what we believe and not believe in life. That is COMMON SENSE...so what are you trying to say?? What point are you trying to state?? Epic Fail

[Puddin4489]

Okay as I said before...its an oppinion. If you have to try to put me down to make yourself feel better cool...no worries here. I believe in God and I believe I will have a wonderful life forever. I'm sorry that you don't believe like I do.

[DynamicSound]

How do you know air is real?? I dont have to have something physical in my face to believe it. I never said because good things happen to me I should believe in him. I have bad things happen to me all the time but it is my faith in God that gets me through. Everything happens for a reason

Yes, back to the "God's Plan" answer. So 18 y/o soldiers that get limbs blown off happened for a reason. It simply happened.

And remember, the bad things are because of the Devil. :lmfao:

[Puddin4489]

Yea it did happen for a reason. You never know why things happen and it is not up to you to decide that. I mean don't you think I wonder why things happen...I attended a funeral friday for a good friend of mine and watched his little boy cry his eyes out and I was wondering why he was taken...but thats not for me to decided why or if its right or wrong...there is a greater plan in all that happens so I am happy that he is beyond all the pain and hurt in this world and excited to see God's plan instead of questioning God

[DynamicSound]

Okay as I said before...its an oppinion. If you have to try to put me down to make yourself feel better cool...no worries here. I believe in God and I believe I will have a wonderful life forever. I'm sorry that you don't believe like I do.

As far as me feeling "cool"...that has nothing to do with it. Just giving you examples of things that happen to others. I personally could care less what someone believes. It is their life and up to them. Just thought I would have to have some fun amd punch holes in your story since you responded to my post.

[DynamicSound]

...but thats not for me to decided why or if its right or wrong...there is a greater plan in all that happens so I am happy that he is beyond all the pain and hurt in this world and excited to see God's plan instead of questioning God

:lmfao:

[Puddin4489]

okay......

[sport_122]

This is just fail all over. As stated in the two posts by me, it is my opinion based on my own logic. All posts in this thread and throughout the world is based on that. We use our own experience and beliefs to determine what we believe and not believe in life. That is COMMON SENSE...so what are you trying to say?? What point are you trying to state?? Epic Fail

My point is:

If you believe that all experiences are based off of personal belief (as you said) then you would NOT try to flame people for having a different perspective than yours because you would have to also agree that you have NOT had their personal experience.

The theist would not be weak minded (as you portray) , and THEIR logic would be a suitable enough reason for them to believe in God. But you make statements like "I simply had a mind of my own and can see that it is BS."

So explain your logic to me, when you say that its up to the person, but the people that believe in religion are BS. You have just admitted to not understanding their logic, but at the same time you tell them it is wrong? That is illogical to me. For us car guys, its like someone hearing your turbo or blow of valve and telling you something is wrong with the engine. They make a statement out of ignorance to the subject.

YOU have said that YOUR opinion comes from YOUR experience, but when the same argument is given from the other side, ALL of a sudden its not good enough.

So maybe you did make the same point as I, but then you proved that your own way of thinking is subject to the same criticism that you made against the other side.

SO as a person who believes in an eternal God who reveals himself to us in many different ways. My reason for believing in God is because great things have happened in my life, I have had experiences that I would define as supernatural, and because I drink the cool aid and it tastes OH so good. I am not a believer because I fear hell, I am a believer because I embrace heaven.

As someone who claims that its a personal opinion then that should be more than enough for you...

of course that is if you in fact do say that belief is subjective. If it is then it cannot be wrong to you. If it is not, then you need to realize that it is no longer subjective which means their is a universal truth somewhere. And you cannot define a universal truth if you are going to ignore the existence of an eternal, and that is why I believe that logic is grounded in the eternal through the revelation (or advancement of understanding) of our universe.

I surely hope you have something better to say than EPIC FAIL, because for a person who claims that believers are BS you should have a much better reason, than the ones you have given that are only based on your experience, because I believe mine to be universal to everyone who has ever functioned on this planet.

[_Christian_]

Well if you want to make sense of my post then you need to read what it is reference to and the statements that I was replying to.

For anyone who says they don't believe in something "just because someone says so" or "they only believe what is proven by science" then they are leaving out the very REAL part of the equation.

The person who taught you that the sun was "a ball of fire" or the person who told you that red was red. You don't just KNOW unless you have some sort of knowledge on the subject that is taught and explained to you. If and when, you have kids lock them in a room with a book and they will not learn how to read. They have to be taught by someone, or something.

also in reply to the previous post

Nobody on this thread has original knowledge, and nobody on this thread is saying anything that has not been said before. So nobody on this thread can truthfully say that they learned everything and explain everything completely based on their own learning or logic. Someone else wrote the book, someone else laid the foundations for the research so we are all subject to opinions based on someone else.

So, how do you define logic? Lots of people have used the word, but by its very definition it is subjective. What is logic to you may not be logic to me. If that is the case how can you justify, YOUR logic as correct in comparison to someone else?

That in and of itself puts the burden of proof on both parties. Just as many theists struggle to understand and verbalize their reasons for believing in God, the non-theist also cannot prove the lack of existence of God. In all of the experience you have had, and all of the things you have known, your opinion remains subjective and personalized without the ability to prove.

The arguments that people have given so far are just mirrors of the reasons that theists give for believing in God. So what makes your argument or your stance better?
No one knew any of those examples at one point. Since, as you stated, no one has original knowledge, these had to be learned...they are more than just bits of information passed on. If all of that information was wiped from mankind, I am confident that it would be discovered again. Why? There is physical proof.

How do you know air is real??
It can be very easily proven... What if I farted in your mouth? Would you believe in it then? If you can't even comprehend the 3 states of matter, procreation should be a no no..

I dont have to have something physical in my face to believe it.
Makes sense..

Yea it did happen for a reason. You never know why things happen and it is not up to you to decide that. I mean don't you think I wonder why things happen...I attended a funeral friday for a good friend of mine and watched his little boy cry his eyes out and I was wondering why he was taken...but thats not for me to decided why or if its right or wrong...there is a greater plan in all that happens so I am happy that he is beyond all the pain and hurt in this world and excited to see God's plan instead of questioning God
Yeah, when I flip coins I often ponder the significance between God's plan and the resultant.

:lmfao:
:lmfao: + whatever I'm worth!!

[Puddin4489]

My point is:

If you believe that all experiences are based off of personal belief (as you said) then you would NOT try to flame people for having a different perspective than yours because you would have to also agree that you have NOT had their personal experience.

The theist would not be weak minded (as you portray) , and THEIR logic would be a suitable enough reason for them to believe in God. But you make statements like "I simply had a mind of my own and can see that it is BS."

So explain your logic to me, when you say that its up to the person, but the people that believe in religion are BS. You have just admitted to not understanding their logic, but at the same time you tell them it is wrong? That is illogical to me. For us car guys, its like someone hearing your turbo or blow of valve and telling you something is wrong with the engine. They make a statement out of ignorance to the subject.

YOU have said that YOUR opinion comes from YOUR experience, but when the same argument is given from the other side, ALL of a sudden its not good enough.

So maybe you did make the same point as I, but then you proved that your own way of thinking is subject to the same criticism that you made against the other side.

SO as a person who believes in an eternal God who reveals himself to us in many different ways. My reason for believing in God is because great things have happened in my life, I have had experiences that I would define as supernatural, and because I drink the cool aid and it tastes OH so good. I am not a believer because I fear hell, I am a believer because I embrace heaven.

As someone who claims that its a personal opinion then that should be more than enough for you...

of course that is if you in fact do say that belief is subjective. If it is then it cannot be wrong to you. If it is not, then you need to realize that it is no longer subjective which means their is a universal truth somewhere. And you cannot define a universal truth if you are going to ignore the existence of an eternal, and that is why I believe that logic is grounded in the eternal through the revelation (or advancement of understanding) of our universe.

I surely hope you have something better to say than EPIC FAIL, because for a person who claims that believers are BS you should have a much better reason, than the ones you have given that are only based on your experience, because I believe mine to be universal to everyone who has ever functioned on this planet.

Very very well stated!!

[hondachik]

I believe I can fly.

[_Christian_]

I believe I can touch the sky.

[sport_122]

i think about it every night and day

[DynamicSound]

My point is:

If you believe that all experiences are based off of personal belief (as you said) then you would NOT try to flame people for having a different perspective than yours because you would have to also agree that you have NOT had their personal experience.

The theist would not be weak minded (as you portray) , and THEIR logic would be a suitable enough reason for them to believe in God. But you make statements like "I simply had a mind of my own and can see that it is BS."

So explain your logic to me, when you say that its up to the person, but the people that believe in religion are BS. You have just admitted to not understanding their logic, but at the same time you tell them it is wrong? That is illogical to me. For us car guys, its like someone hearing your turbo or blow of valve and telling you something is wrong with the engine. They make a statement out of ignorance to the subject.

YOU have said that YOUR opinion comes from YOUR experience, but when the same argument is given from the other side, ALL of a sudden its not good enough.

So maybe you did make the same point as I, but then you proved that your own way of thinking is subject to the same criticism that you made against the other side.

SO as a person who believes in an eternal God who reveals himself to us in many different ways. My reason for believing in God is because great things have happened in my life, I have had experiences that I would define as supernatural, and because I drink the cool aid and it tastes OH so good. I am not a believer because I fear hell, I am a believer because I embrace heaven.

As someone who claims that its a personal opinion then that should be more than enough for you...

of course that is if you in fact do say that belief is subjective. If it is then it cannot be wrong to you. If it is not, then you need to realize that it is no longer subjective which means their is a universal truth somewhere. And you cannot define a universal truth if you are going to ignore the existence of an eternal, and that is why I believe that logic is grounded in the eternal through the revelation (or advancement of understanding) of our universe.

I surely hope you have something better to say than EPIC FAIL, because for a person who claims that believers are BS you should have a much better reason, than the ones you have given that are only based on your experience, because I believe mine to be universal to everyone who has ever functioned on this planet.

Wow, all that for little ole me?? LOL. I completely agree that I can't "flame" anyone because they are using the method to come up with their belief as I do. However, if you would read one of my earliar posts, you would see that the person in question getting "flamed" responded to my post first. When my post was stated several times IMO. So because that person responded to a post that required no response, they were also responded too. If you can't take having your reasoning criticized...then you are on the wrong board.


SO as a person who believes in an eternal God who reveals himself to us in many different ways. My reason for believing in God is because great things have happened in my life, I have had experiences that I would define as supernatural, and because I drink the cool aid and it tastes OH so good. I am not a believer because I fear hell, I am a believer because I embrace heaven.

:screwy: And now I will respond to your post since you have responded to me. Once again, you believe in God because great things have happened to you? So what about all the people that don't believe and still have all those great things happen? God can't be doing because we don't believe in God. What about all the believers that go through life without great things happening to them? What, their faith is not as strong as yours? Give me a break. Everytime something great happens to you, you automatically chalk it up to God. So, do you chalk up any bad things to the Devil? So yes, IMO that is very weak minded and nieve. Since I have great things happen to me almost everyday, I am now going to start saying it is because I do not believe God exists and life is rewarding me for not being so stupid.

[Donati03gt]

i spread my wings and fly away !!!!

[BABY J]

I believe I can soar.

[sport_122]

If you can't take having your reasoning criticized...then you are on the wrong board.

True. Oh so very true.


[/QUOTE]
:screwy: And now I will respond to your post since you have responded to me. Once again, you believe in God because great things have happened to you? So what about all the people that don't believe and still have all those great things happen? God can't be doing because we don't believe in God. What about all the believers that go through life without great things happening to them? What, their faith is not as strong as yours? Give me a break. Everytime something great happens to you, you automatically chalk it up to God. So, do you chalk up any bad things to the Devil? So yes, IMO that is very weak minded and nieve. Since I have great things happen to me almost everyday, I am now going to start saying it is because I do not believe God exists and life is rewarding me for not being so stupid.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying. I will not argue with your experience.

But I will say this (it will sound strange to some, but these are my thoughts on why I believe that God is very real and very involved in human development)

I don't believe that the question of an existence of an eternal God is subjective. I think there are objective things in this world that point to God. Things that are not based on personal experience but can be viewed and understood universally even taking into consideration that everyone has different personal experience and still be agreed upon. Things like universal law (or moral codes), the methodology of advancement in knowledge and understanding, defining pain and joy, experiencing love.

I don't believe all of these things are immediately understood by us, but their very existence throughout time and throughout life is experienced the same and acknowledge the same regardless of age, race, nationality, career, religious preference, whether you are atheist, whether you are blind, smart, stupid, poor, or rich. I am not saying that these things are good or bad, but I am saying that when you write down on a piece of paper the words "I love you" or "I am hurting" any person can relate to those words. To me this proves that we are ALL tied together somehow because this language is not only human to human, its animal to human(our pets and the animal kingdom display hurt, and demonstrate love towards one another and us), its even plant to human(plants that whither or turn the wrong color at the wrong time can tell us that they are sick or in need of something). We can understand our world through some sort of universal language.

To me, this proves that there is a God. The very existence of universal emotion, and the very existence of the "ability" to reason and use logic (even though logic is experiential, the ability to understand and interpret it as a way of revelation of knowledge is universal) proves the existence of a greater power beyond what we want, experience, and feel. I believe this proves the very special nature of mankind in that we are the only ones to have the ability to use our understanding of this language to serve our planet and each other.

I believe in a constant revelation of the knowledge of God through reason and science. I believe that science and reason teach us that the universe is so vast that our growing knowledge of things demonstrates the eternal nature of knowledge in that we are beginning to realize that there is NO end to the questions that we ask when we begin to break things down. As said before every scientific study answers one questions and creates many more as science itself is only a subjective tool used to gain the understanding of the eternal concept of knowledge.

So my understanding of God is different from most. I don't take faith blindly because I do realize that men will twist the truth, some do it knowingly and some do it ignorantly, but there are always those things that are universal and can be understood to help us know the character of the eternal and live in obedience to that. I believe this is why the Bible is valid and truth to me. The book is not subjective. It teaches us the universal truths of our existence. Which is one of the reasons the writers could not take credit and would have given it to God. Because they believed what was written to be revelation, and they understood this as only having the possibility of coming from God. So he gets the credit. They were not crazy. They would have had to think really really hard about what they were going to say. And most of the things that are written were not written with the intent of being put with a collection and bound. Scripture is written as individual accounts of explaining those things that effect mankind universally.

[sport_122]

I believe I can soar.
I see me running through that open doo-o-o-oor.

[BABY J]

True. Oh so very true.

I understand what you are saying. I will not argue with your experience.

But I will say this (it will sound strange to some, but these are my thoughts on why I believe that God is very real and very involved in human development)

I don't believe that the question of an existence of an eternal God is subjective. I think there are objective things in this world that point to God. Things that are not based on personal experience but can be viewed and understood universally even taking into consideration that everyone has different personal experience and still be agreed upon. Things like universal law (or moral codes), the methodology of advancement in knowledge and understanding, defining pain and joy, experiencing love.

I don't believe all of these things are immediately understood by us, but their very existence throughout time and throughout life is experienced the same and acknowledge the same regardless of age, race, nationality, career, religious preference, whether you are atheist, whether you are blind, smart, stupid, poor, or rich. I am not saying that these things are good or bad, but I am saying that when you write down on a piece of paper the words "I love you" or "I am hurting" any person can relate to those words. To me this proves that we are ALL tied together somehow because this language is not only human to human, its animal to human(our pets and the animal kingdom display hurt, and demonstrate love towards one another and us), its even plant to human(plants that whither or turn the wrong color at the wrong time can tell us that they are sick or in need of something). We can understand our world through some sort of universal language.

To me, this proves that there is a God. The very existence of universal emotion, and the very existence of the "ability" to reason and use logic (even though logic is experiential, the ability to understand and interpret it as a way of revelation of knowledge is universal) proves the existence of a greater power beyond what we want, experience, and feel. I believe this proves the very special nature of mankind in that we are the only ones to have the ability to use our understanding of this language to serve our planet and each other.

I believe in a constant revelation of the knowledge of God through reason and science. I believe that science and reason teach us that the universe is so vast that our growing knowledge of things demonstrates the eternal nature of knowledge in that we are beginning to realize that there is NO end to the questions that we ask when we begin to break things down. As said before every scientific study answers one questions and creates many more as science itself is only a subjective tool used to gain the understanding of the eternal concept of knowledge.

So my understanding of God is different from most. I don't take faith blindly because I do realize that men will twist the truth, some do it knowingly and some do it ignorantly, but there are always those things that are universal and can be understood to help us know the character of the eternal and live in obedience to that. I believe this is why the Bible is valid and truth to me. The book is not subjective. It teaches us the universal truths of our existence. Which is one of the reasons the writers could not take credit and would have given it to God. Because they believed what was written to be revelation, and they understood this as only having the possibility of coming from God. So he gets the credit. They were not crazy. They would have had to think really really hard about what they were going to say. And most of the things that are written were not written with the intent of being put with a collection and bound. Scripture is written as individual accounts of explaining those things that effect mankind universally.

There are plenty of non-religious philosophies that hold that you should treat others the way you want to be treated and value other people. Has nothing to do with "god" but has to do with it being a "universal truth." It is something that has allowed the human animal to continue to exist in a society.

Suggesting you have to be a Christian to have a sense of moral absolute, or that morality comes from the Christian God, is patently ridiculous. It absolutely ignores the majority of the world's population that manages to live a more peaceful and harmonious life than our Christian forebears and I maintain that's a superior "morality."

[tinkolby_25]

Well if you want to make sense of my post then you need to read what it is reference to and the statements that I was replying to.

For anyone who says they don't believe in something "just because someone says so" or "they only believe what is proven by science" then they are leaving out the very REAL part of the equation.

The person who taught you that the sun was "a ball of fire" or the person who told you that red was red. You don't just KNOW unless you have some sort of knowledge on the subject that is taught and explained to you. If and when, you have kids lock them in a room with a book and they will not learn how to read. They have to be taught by someone, or something.

also in reply to the previous post

Nobody on this thread has original knowledge, and nobody on this thread is saying anything that has not been said before. So nobody on this thread can truthfully say that they learned everything and explain everything completely based on their own learning or logic. Someone else wrote the book, someone else laid the foundations for the research so we are all subject to opinions based on someone else.

So, how do you define logic? Lots of people have used the word, but by its very definition it is subjective. What is logic to you may not be logic to me. If that is the case how can you justify, YOUR logic as correct in comparison to someone else?

That in and of itself puts the burden of proof on both parties. Just as many theists struggle to understand and verbalize their reasons for believing in God, the non-theist also cannot prove the lack of existence of God. In all of the experience you have had, and all of the things you have known, your opinion remains subjective and personalized without the ability to prove.

The arguments that people have given so far are just mirrors of the reasons that theists give for believing in God. So what makes your argument or your stance better?

red is just a word created to associate your mind with that color
if the color red was named yellow it would still be there it would still look the same
i dont understand y u think that there is a reason to believe this is there or not because u can see it without a doubt
every time u look at the color red it is red, doesnt change

ok...so god created the world and all its creatures in seven days blah blah
what happened to the dinosaurs? there is PROOF they were here millions of years ago, but something wiped out every single one of them , then all of a sudden at a random interval in time a guy wrote the bible explaining everything that supposedly happened creating the world and such. where did he receive his facts? did god just beam down one day and say hey guy this happened write it down and tell everyone about it

that is the problem with religion you can never prove that god is there
i can prove the sun is there i can prove we have gravity i can prove the color red is red

and answer me this question if god created us then who created god?

where does he fit in to this whole scheme?

people say god has to be there, or how else would we be here, if god is real someone would have had to of created him

again christians prove me wrong,:goodjob: i want to be wrong:lmfao:

[sport_122]

red is just a word created to associate your mind with that color
if the color red was named yellow it would still be there it would still look the same
i dont understand y u think that there is a reason to believe this is there or not because u can see it without a doubt
every time u look at the color red it is red, doesnt change

ok...so god created the world and all its creatures in seven days blah blah
what happened to the dinosaurs? there is PROOF they were here millions of years ago, but something wiped out every single one of them , then all of a sudden at a random interval in time a guy wrote the bible explaining everything that supposedly happened creating the world and such. where did he receive his facts? did god just beam down one day and say hey guy this happened write it down and tell everyone about it

that is the problem with religion you can never prove that god is there
i can prove the sun is there i can prove we have gravity i can prove the color red is red

and answer me this question if god created us then who created god?

where does he fit in to this whole scheme?

people say god has to be there, or how else would we be here, if god is real someone would have had to of created him

again christians prove me wrong,:goodjob: i want to be wrong:lmfao:


I never said anything about God creating the world in seven days. I also think you should learn about the bible before you assume it was written by some guy. The bible was not written by some guy and I am not arguing the Bible. Just the complete randomness of that statement.

You need to separate religion from God, because not all religions believe in a God. There is a difference.

If your questions are about religion then you can't get an answer and even if you did, whoever gave it to you cannot prove their answer? Creation accounts are about religion. They are just as grounded in faith and no good proof as science. With your same series of questions someone could say How was the earth created? The big bang (which just like creation theories, is completely excepted in the scientific communities)? Well who set the Big band off? Who can give us proof that this is happening? Where does life come from? A bolt of electricity? Well why can't that be reproduced in a lab? None of these questions can be answered with 100% certainty, therefore there is always going to be a faith aspect of science, just like religion.


Seeing as how this thread is about believing in God (which doesn't have to do with religion because there are people who believe in God and don't involve themselves in any religion), you will have to read what i have already written to see WHY I believe in God and the reasons I give that are not because of the bible or because someone told me so.

Even in science the discussion for big bang theorists states that all matter that is around now has been in existence, where does it come from? Who put it there? Why did it all of a sudden start moving around and reacting with itself? This is why some schools are teaching intelligent design along side things like evolution and big bang theory, because our universe has properties to it that go beyond what we can even try to understand. But seeing as how most people don't even read what is previously posted I wouldn't expect you to go back and make arguments against my points either.

[stillaneon]

red is just a word created to associate your mind with that color
if the color red was named yellow it would still be there it would still look the same
i dont understand y u think that there is a reason to believe this is there or not because u can see it without a doubt
every time u look at the color red it is red, doesnt change

ok...so god created the world and all its creatures in seven days blah blah
what happened to the dinosaurs? there is PROOF they were here millions of years ago, but something wiped out every single one of them , then all of a sudden at a random interval in time a guy wrote the bible explaining everything that supposedly happened creating the world and such. where did he receive his facts? did god just beam down one day and say hey guy this happened write it down and tell everyone about it

that is the problem with religion you can never prove that god is there
i can prove the sun is there i can prove we have gravity i can prove the color red is red

and answer me this question if god created us then who created god?

where does he fit in to this whole scheme?

people say god has to be there, or how else would we be here, if god is real someone would have had to of created him

again christians prove me wrong,:goodjob: i want to be wrong:lmfao:

Just to play devil's advocate.

I am an Atheist. But you are taking things way too literally.

No where in the bible does it show a chronological chart of the time frame in a day.

remember, those who believe in "god" believe he has been around since the beginnning of time. a lifetime for us would be just a blink of an eye.

The idea we have of how long a day lasts was only established after creation.

So logically, a day for "the almighty" could have been millions of years.


almost long enough for dinosaurs:rolleyes:


And "Some guy" didn't right about creation. The Torah, as it is known (the first 5 books of the bible) were written by Moses. Christianity is not the only faith that uses the Torah and the same facts seem to be the standard there.

And who said "god" beamed anything? 2 Timothy, Chapter 3, Verse 16 states that, "all word is God-breathed"

No one would have created God.

Now can we stop asking the naive questions....

[Got Milk?]

Allah is the creator of everything.

[Got Milk?]

I never said anything about God creating the world in seven days. I also think you should learn about the bible before you assume it was written by some guy. The bible was not written by some guy and I am not arguing the Bible. Just the complete randomness of that statement.

You need to separate religion from God, because not all religions believe in a God. There is a difference.

If your questions are about religion then you can't get an answer and even if you did, whoever gave it to you cannot prove their answer? Creation accounts are about religion. They are just as grounded in faith and no good proof as science. With your same series of questions someone could say How was the earth created? The big bang (which just like creation theories, is completely excepted in the scientific communities)? Well who set the Big band off? Who can give us proof that this is happening? Where does life come from? A bolt of electricity? Well why can't that be reproduced in a lab? None of these questions can be answered with 100% certainty, therefore there is always going to be a faith aspect of science, just like religion.


Seeing as how this thread is about believing in God (which doesn't have to do with religion because there are people who believe in God and don't involve themselves in any religion), you will have to read what i have already written to see WHY I believe in God and the reasons I give that are not because of the bible or because someone told me so.

Even in science the discussion for big bang theorists states that all matter that is around now has been in existence, where does it come from? Who put it there? Why did it all of a sudden start moving around and reacting with itself? This is why some schools are teaching intelligent design along side things like evolution and big bang theory, because our universe has properties to it that go beyond what we can even try to understand. But seeing as how most people don't even read what is previously posted I wouldn't expect you to go back and make arguments against my points either.

I find it funny that christians have like a new bible every year. WTH. book is not supposed to change. And i find funny that same religion beleive that jesus might be the god, or son of god, or.....lol you guys need to make up ur mind.

[RL...]

I find it funny that christians have like a new bible every year. WTH. book is not supposed to change. And i find funny that same religion beleive that jesus might be the god, or son of god, or.....lol you guys need to make up ur mind.

Many parts of christianity, including the "son of god" are astrological personifications..

The reason why there are os many different versions of the bible is because ppl interpret the meanings of the bible differently. The bible is very vague, and shouldn't be taken seriously, but if it helps you sleep at night to each his own

[sport_122]

I find it funny that christians have like a new bible every year. WTH. book is not supposed to change. And i find funny that same religion beleive that jesus might be the god, or son of god, or.....lol you guys need to make up ur mind.

in many cases I agree with this. I have come across faiths that use distorted versions of the bible as well, but that is why its important for people to understand the bible based on the cultural history around it and the original languages. There are resources out there that people who want to study the bible can use to get the original greek and hebrew that all versions of the bible should be translated from. Sadly there are people out there who just paraphrase the texts and we also have a problem with our language not being as definitive as greek or hebrew. For instance when we write the word love its just love. They have several different words that describe specific types of love and our language doesn't do that so there are many specific meanings that get lost in translation.

[DynamicSound]

So in closing arguements...the bible is full of crap and fake. Respectively speaking.

[RL...]

So in closing arguements...the bible is full of crap and fake. Respectively speaking.

the bible does teach good values and morals. But to live one's life by it....

[Juggernaut]

The one thing I learned in this thread. Nobody's opinion changed. Shocking.

[Elbow]

Yes

[jhadleyh]

yep i do

[JDMEK18]

Yes, I do - believe in God the father almight! and his Son Jesus Christ!

[DrivenMind]

Anti-Theist here. Not only do I not believe in god, I actively maintain that indoctrinating children under any celestial dictatorship be it real or imagined is harmful. Religion systematically asks people to believe things without evidence. In any other sphere of human activity this would be considered utterly unacceptable. We are reaching a period in time where seventh century belief systems may have access to twenty first century weaponry.

Reading about religion not only helped me narrow down what I do and don't believe, but also changed some of my political views as well. Up until very recently I would have considered myself anti-war, but after reading a bit on the subject of religion I can no longer make that claim.

Sport122 the answer to your questions is not "because someone told you." It's because they are self-evident, and can be independently verified.

"Any theory that propounds an opposition between the logic and the empirical, represents a failure to grasp the nature of logic and its role in human cognition. Man’s knowledge is not acquired by logic apart from experience or by experience apart from logic, but by the application of logic to experience. All truths are the product of a logical identification of the facts of experience." - Leonard Peikoff

These are some of the books I've been reading over the past two or three months, on the subject that have helped me understand what it means to be religious, and to believe in religion.

Recommended Reading:

The God Delusion
- Richard Dawkins

Breaking the Spell
-Daniel Dennett

The End of Faith
- Sam Harris

God is Not Great
- Christopher Hitchens

Atheist Universe
- David Mills

Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever
- Christopher Hitchens

The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in The Dark
- Carl Sagan

The Age of Reason
-Thomas Paine


Here we face a critical branch point in history, what we do with our world, right now, will propagate down through the centuries and powerfully affect the destiny of our descendants, it is well within our power to destroy our civilization and perhaps our species as well. If we capitulate to superstition or greed or stupidity we could plunge our world into a time of darkness deeper than the time between the collapse of classical civilization and the Italian Renaissance. But we are also capable of using our compassion and our intelligence, our technology and our wealth to make an abundant and meaningful life for every inhabitant of this planet." -Carl Sagan

"In spite of the ferocious differences of opinion about other moral issues, there seems to be something approaching consensus that it is cruel and malicious to interfere with the life-enhancing illusions of others- unless those illusions are themselves are the cause of even greater ills." -Daniel Dennett

[cactusEG]

Yes I do...

[tandem]

no

[sport_122]

"Any theory that propounds an opposition between the logic and the empirical, represents a failure to grasp the nature of logic and its role in human cognition. Man’s knowledge is not acquired by logic apart from experience or by experience apart from logic, but by the application of logic to experience. All truths are the product of a logical identification of the facts of experience." - Leonard Peikoff

These are some of the books I've been reading over the past two or three months, on the subject that have helped me understand what it means to be religious, and to believe in religion.

Recommended Reading:

The God Delusion
- Richard Dawkins

Breaking the Spell
-Daniel Dennett

The End of Faith
- Sam Harris

God is Not Great
- Christopher Hitchens

Atheist Universe
- David Mills

Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever
- Christopher Hitchens

The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in The Dark
- Carl Sagan

The Age of Reason
-Thomas Paine



I didnt' want to over burden this thread as i occasionally do, but...

response: Your quote from Peikoff.

first off remember that even Peikoff is a product of predetermined factors. This is a man who was groomed and shaped by one of the most reknowned atheists in recent history. Ayn Rand whose education was formulated before the explosion of social sciences in Russia. So of course the idea and thoughts on social environment relating to her pupil will be skewed to that avail. Much like that of the religious mind. My point is again, sciences and religion are both a product of faith and those views are shaped by a persons surrounds and because our experiences are limited thus our ability to really have a free will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZgr9jrQQ9w
In this clip. Peikoff demonstrates the opposite of his point. he has a caller on the phone who he wants to prove an ability of free choice. The determinant factors of what happen in this clip are laid out in that had this person not called Peikoff, he would have never made the choice to pick up the glass of milk and hold onto it. So even in this clip the outside influence (peikoff) is proven to shape the choice that is made by the caller.


I dont' know most of those authors, but I do know that Christopher Hitchens is not remotely a good person to be taking "scientific or proven advice from" he has countless debates where he fails to be able to formulate an argument against God or religion without making a mockery to the foundation of the beliefs he is debating. If he cannot understand them in their context then he is unequipped to debate them. Look up his debate with his brother, read reviews (even from atheists) of his books, specifically the one you listed. He gets it handed to him regularly.

Carl Sagan...i know a little about him, and he would not have been so quick to jump on the science is key discussion with atheists/thiests. And he wouldn't have been so quick to deny the reasonings of faith for the individual. He viewed science in much the same scope as religion. A poor understanding of either can be destructive. He feared that science would eventually be widely viewed as fact because it could lead the world down a bad path. Im not sure how you are trying to represent him here.

"Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces." Carl Sagan

Lastly, Peter Hithcens is Christopher Hitchens' brother. He has some very interesting points to make in this debate with his brother. He has also debate Dawkins on his world view and the role of religion in the world.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5325064402847701526
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5923927982866699758&hl=en

[FasTech]

Yes, I believe in God.

[BABY J]

...My point is again, sciences and religion are both a product of faith and those views are shaped by a persons surrounds and because our experiences are limited thus our ability to really have a free will.




WRONG!!! Science allows the chance to be proven wrong. To be proven wrong means that you have a mind open enough to LEARN something rather than arrogantly run around like you all have it figured out.

THAT is where bible thumpers lose, and will continue to lose. They have "arrived" the root of the Earth and have "arrived" at the base of all existence while the greatest minds on the planet can't even figure out fossil fuels yet.

I'd like ONE person to show me ONE fucking thing that Jesus has personally done for them in the last 20 years. I'll wait...

[sport_122]

WRONG!!! Science allows the chance to be proven wrong. To be proven wrong means that you have a mind open enough to LEARN something rather than arrogantly run around like you all have it figured out.

THAT is where bible thumpers lose, and will continue to lose. They have "arrived" the root of the Earth and have "arrived" at the base of all existence while the greatest minds on the planet can't even figure out fossil fuels yet.

I'd like ONE person to show me ONE fucking thing that Jesus has personally done for them in the last 20 years. I'll wait...

Well if the idea is what has religion done then I can link the life of Jesus to numerous people in the corrections field and in social sciences that will testify that religion in the lives of prisoners is positive. That prisoners who attach themselves to religious faith are less likely to become repeat offenders. I hope you didn't have to wait too long. Cause I would think that less criminals does a ton for me and you.

I can name tons of "Bible thumpers" who do not claim to know it all. And even what I have said in previous posts is that I believe that the universe is being revealed to us through science, which denotes that I do not believe I know everything.

until there is an absolute answer from science, all science offers differently is observations(which in and of themselves can be questionable based on other sciences like psychology) which lead directly to more question and it is not an end to anything. Don't forget that there are hundreds of different sciences. The social sciences would completely tear down the idea that the practical sciences are not acting on perceptions and assumptions. Science fighting science...this happens in religion too.

do you believe that knowledge has an end?
do you believe that human discovery will eventually be ratified through science?
do you believe that science is going to be able to prove the origins of the earth?
do you believe that science is going to be able to completely rationalize social tendencies?

Answering yes to any of these questions tells me that you need to go find any professor of science at a collegiate/professional level and ask them because they will disagree with you especially if you talk to a historian or social scientist.

Why? because science is ever changing as our universe is revealed to us. This is no different from religion in itself. I am not a proponent of the Catholic Church, but even the Catholic Church provides evidence of this change in its acceptance of scientific practice and understanding. They accept everything from the existence to life on other planets, to "parts" of evolution.

Science can be just as foolish as religion. Many scientist deny the existence of the U.F.O. phenomenon because it has not had a tested and proven hypothesis which is repeatable with controls. Even with the sheer amount of evidence to prove that something is going on with this topic there is widespread denial. Why do think? Could it be that science is more like the religious people you talk about. That science is saying "if it doesn't fall within the scope of "scientific understanding then it cannot be considered real" -I have had this discussion with my brother in law who is a Scientist in D.C. Even he would agree that science is only about observation and a quest for knowledge and it only perpetuates more questions.

There is this big stigma that its one or the other. I don't believe that. I believe that science is the process of logic that should be used by all men to determine those things which are to be revealed to us about life. The problem only enters in when the atheist or the anti-religious or the pro-religious scientist makes it their goal to destroy the opposition that they feel opposes their views. It is a fight when the two are in desperate need of one another.

lastly there is also a myth that the ancient cultures were ignorant about the way the world works because they did not have the "scientific discovery" that modern times have. If you think this is the case then you need to talk to someone who has studied, Sumeria, Rome, and south and central America. They will tell you that you are wrong.

This is the problem with the people who tout science and science only ,you are missing the fact that science is self destructing without religion and the opposite is true. Religion without the acknowledging validity to the scientific process is destructive.

Sorry for the long post.

[BABY J]

So... Jesus has personally done WHAT for you again? I missed that part.

[sport_122]

So... Jesus has personally done WHAT for you again? I missed that part.

I'm alive aren't I? My worldview denotes me believing that God is responsible for my everything and lack there of how much more personal can I get.

but lets ask your question to you...
What has Einstein, Darwin, Hitchens, Dawkins, or any scientists for that matter done for you PERSONALLY? You take their teachings to be truth or some version of understanding just like I take Jesus'. The problem is that you are a victim of that closemindedness that you mentioned. I am willing to learn and you are not. I am willing to listen to and study Darwin, Hitchens, Dawkins, Einstein, and to learn what they have to say, it is YOU who have proven himself to be closeminded in this case not me. Now that doesn't mean that I agree with them, because I don't put my eggs in the "science is golden" basket because science is not an absolute. Religion is not an absolute either.

What kind of answer are you asking for? Are you saying that a persons life cannot influence others without their physical presence?

Martin Luther King, Adolf Hitler, Muhammed, Moses, Paul, Abe Lincoln, Michael Jordan, much of the Roman culture, George Washington Carver...

I can keep going on and on about the sheer number of people who have personally influenced and provided for me and you through the impact of their life.

Now you can be childish and ignore what I wrote in my last post or you can formulate a good response either way you are arguing for science over religion with great tenacity.

[okra1981]

I've read way to much of this for my own good, so I'm giving a "maybe" to a yes/no question, suck it.

[BABY J]

I'm alive aren't I? My worldview denotes me believing that God is responsible for my everything and lack there of how much more personal can I get.

but lets ask your question to you...
What has Einstein, Darwin, Hitchens, Dawkins, or any scientists for that matter done for you PERSONALLY? You take their teachings to be truth or some version of understanding just like I take Jesus'. The problem is that you are a victim of that closemindedness that you mentioned. I am willing to learn and you are not. I am willing to listen to and study Darwin, Hitchens, Dawkins, Einstein, and to learn what they have to say, it is YOU who have proven himself to be closeminded in this case not me. Now that doesn't mean that I agree with them, because I don't put my eggs in the "science is golden" basket because science is not an absolute. Religion is not an absolute either.

What kind of answer are you asking for? Are you saying that a persons life cannot influence others without their physical presence?

Martin Luther King, Adolf Hitler, Muhammed, Moses, Paul, Abe Lincoln, Michael Jordan, much of the Roman culture, George Washington Carver...

I can keep going on and on about the sheer number of people who have personally influenced and provided for me and you through the impact of their life.

Now you can be childish and ignore what I wrote in my last post or you can formulate a good response either way you are arguing for science over religion with great tenacity.

That's what I thought. He has done nothing. And he WILL continue to do a whole lot of that.:goodjob: When he chooses to do something for you though, let me know.

I do not knock that there is a higher power. Maybe some GOD created Darwins Theory. If he did, he left the rest up to us and we are failing miserably. To beg the invisible for more than what you can prove and taste and touch and feel is fucking moronic. Keep spinning your wheels kid.

Whatever it takes for you to sleep at night, respect your neighbors and feel good about yourself for your little 80 years on the planet works for me. :goodjob:

[sport_122]

That's what I thought. He has done nothing. And he WILL continue to do a whole lot of that.:goodjob: When he chooses to do something for you though, let me know.

I do not knock that there is a higher power. Maybe some GOD created Darwins Theory. If he did, he left the rest up to us and we are failing miserably. To beg the invisible for more than what you can prove and taste and touch and feel is fucking moronic. Keep spinning your wheels kid.

Whatever it takes for you to sleep at night, respect your neighbors and feel good about yourself for your little 80 years on the planet works for me. :goodjob:

I answered your question, twice, (refer to your statement on believers being unwilling to learn). This is your chance to TEACH me.

In the true fashion of someone who is "close minded" and unwilling to LEARN, you ignored my question again (I thought I, the believer, was supposed to do that). You may be older than me but you don't seem to know as much as you think. Even the very nature of our current economy shows that people who are not physically in front of you can have a personal effect on you, that is so elementary. If you are going to ask a question of me then you should be able to answer on your own grounds as well.

so why don't you tell me what any scientist, or anyone has done for you personally? The truth is that MOST of our influences stem from things that we DO NOT have a personal contact with. Things you read, things you see on TV, things on the internet and technology. For you to say "That's what I thought" means that you can answer that question. If you can't your argument is fail and that goes to show you are just talking and have really put no thought into the statement you made to me. None of your statements have validity to me unless you can do that. I would even settle for you being able to make a valid comment with support on anything I said in my past two posts instead of ignoring the discussion and not proving any point at all.

[Ronsam2006]

I answered your question, twice, (refer to your statement on believers being unwilling to learn). This is your chance to TEACH me.

In the true fashion of someone who is "close minded" and unwilling to LEARN, you ignored my question again (I thought I, the believer, was supposed to do that). You may be older than me but you don't seem to know as much as you think. Even the very nature of our current economy shows that people who are not physically in front of you can have a personal effect on you, that is so elementary. If you are going to ask a question of me then you should be able to answer on your own grounds as well.

so why don't you tell me what any scientist, or anyone has done for you personally? The truth is that MOST of our influences stem from things that we DO NOT have a personal contact with. Things you read, things you see on TV, things on the internet and technology. For you to say "That's what I thought" means that you can answer that question. If you can't your argument is fail and that goes to show you are just talking and have really put no thought into the statement you made to me. None of your statements have validity to me unless you can do that. I would even settle for you being able to make a valid comment with support on anything I said in my past two posts instead of ignoring the discussion and not proving any point at all.
This discussion/debate is pretty interesting. Sport122 keeps saying that BabyJ is close minded, but I think he is more of a "It might be possible, but I'll believe it when I see it" type. Does not mean he is close minded, but instead just sticks to cold hard facts. Now BabyJ asked you a question, "What has Jesus done for you personally?" which pretty much gets a different answer from everyone, even though he has really never done anything. The thought or belief of Jesus has changed the lives of several people though.

"I have not met Thomas Edison, but I can safely say that if he never existed, the light bulb might have never been invented." What I am getting at is the difference between all the influential people/scientists you mentioned and Jesus is that, there is some proof that they existed and lived the influential life they led, however the same cannot be said about Jesus. Sure the thought of his existence has helped many in shaping their lives, etc, but never personally.

Going back to the Thomas Edison comment I made...that was more of a quote of what people usually would argue, but did you know that Egyptians did have a light bulb, with a similar spiral filament that did use electricity or something similar. They had to have light to construct and carve on the walls, and if they had used some type of fire burnt by oil, it would have left even a little bit of soot resin, which no one has been able to find. Where did they get the electricity? There are a lot of history mysteries and some things that can be questioned about the past and how it could be repeating itself, but I choose to believe that simply because it is more credible.

[sport_122]

This discussion/debate is pretty interesting. Sport122 keeps saying that BabyJ is close minded, but I think he is more of a "It might be possible, but I'll believe it when I see it" type. Does not mean he is close minded, but instead just sticks to cold hard facts. Now BabyJ asked you a question, "What has Jesus done for you personally?" which pretty much gets a different answer from everyone, even though he has really never done anything. The thought or belief of Jesus has changed the lives of several people though.

"I have not met Thomas Edison, but I can safely say that if he never existed, the light bulb might have never been invented." What I am getting at is the difference between all the influential people/scientists you mentioned and Jesus is that, there is some proof that they existed and lived the influential life they led, however the same cannot be said about Jesus. Sure the thought of his existence has helped many in shaping their lives, etc, but never personally.

Going back to the Thomas Edison comment I made...that was more of a quote of what people usually would argue, but did you know that Egyptians did have a light bulb, with a similar spiral filament that did use electricity or something similar. They had to have light to construct and carve on the walls, and if they had used some type of fire burnt by oil, it would have left even a little bit of soot resin, which no one has been able to find. Where did they get the electricity? There are a lot of history mysteries and some things that can be questioned about the past and how it could be repeating itself, but I choose to believe that simply because it is more credible.

Good post.

I am saying this because it takes being closed minded to think that science is not a parallel to religion and to be able to ask the question he asked, without being able to provide and answer is showing me that he is not here to gain better understanding of anything, but simply to antagonize.

Meaning, that not everything in science is proven fact. Even the very interpretation of results means that you have to approach your finding with faith. You have to assume that you have covered all your bases, you have to assume that all the methods and the components that make up your experiments were properly understood by past scientist in order to make your results work. You have to believe that there are answers to the questions you are asking, and you have to believe that you can somehow at some point in time come to a realization of those answers. All these things are product of "faithful/hopeful" thinking, which is the way that many religions are structured.

There is no question that Jesus was a real person. There are tons of other writings aside from the Bible to prove his existence. He is not fictional. The Romans kept great records. Even the biblical story of his crucifixion gives enough evidence to be cross referenced. Pontius Pilate, Herod, Peter, John the Baptist...they all exist in non-religious writings from the romans. The Jews wrote about him and there are other records that indicate his actual existence. That is not even a question. The problems with him all come from the claims he made, but Jesus is just as real as MLK or Abe Lincoln.

Good point about the Egyptians...that is one of the cultures that had a much better understanding than we give them credit for.

[BABY J]

...

The person who taught you that the sun was "a ball of fire" or the person who told you that red was red. You don't just KNOW unless you have some sort of knowledge on the subject that is taught and explained to you. If and when, you have kids lock them in a room with a book and they will not learn how to read. They have to be taught by someone, or something.



Fauly logic --- who CARES if they learn how to "read".

Lock 2 people from 2 different countries in a room - they will learn how to "COMMUNICATE" --- whether it's "reading" or not. Can't see the forest for looking at the trees - typical thumper. Thump on.


This type of ignorance is why religion/Christianity sucks. To even use BLATANT shit like gravity - the sun - oxygen -etc as a basis to prove your weak points shows how dumb you are...

"Gravity? Really? What IS gravity?? Who taught you that gravity is gravity? IS gravity gravity, or is it OATMEAL? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm":blah:

[BABY J]

Good post.

There is no question that Jesus was a real person. There are tons of other writings aside from the Bible to prove his existence. He is not fictional. The Romans kept great records. Even the biblical story of his crucifixion gives enough evidence to be cross referenced. Pontius Pilate, Herod, Peter, John the Baptist...they all exist in non-religious writings from the romans. The Jews wrote about him and there are other records that indicate his actual existence. That is not even a question. The problems with him all come from the claims he made, but Jesus is just as real as MLK or Abe Lincoln.



http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?p=34774558

[sport_122]

Fauly logic --- who CARES if they learn how to "read".

Lock 2 people from 2 different countries in a room - they will learn how to "COMMUNICATE" --- whether it's "reading" or not. Can't see the forest for looking at the trees - typical thumper. Thump on.


This type of ignorance is why religion/Christianity sucks. To even use BLATANT shit like gravity - the sun - oxygen -etc as a basis to prove your weak points shows how dumb you are...

"Gravity? Really? What IS gravity?? Who taught you that gravity is gravity? IS gravity gravity, or is it OATMEAL? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm":blah:
You are a growm man and write posts like a 15 year old...:goodjob: way to be a role model and an example for the youngsters who are looking for you to show them that you have some sort of real clout.

You mock and scoff and say I'm illogical. If you have found fault in my logic then where are your counter arguments to prove it wrong? the misquoting, and trying to twist context of my words is childish. What are you 30 years old?

First off:

learning how to communicate does not tell them that 1+1=2. And does not tell them that e=mc^2. You knew how to communicate before you started algebra, or science. BTW, what does anything you say have to do with the topic. Now you have reduced your arguments to going back and trying to misquote me, I can do that to, but it gets us nowhere.
And You are running away from your very own question?

What has any scientist personally done for you? I'm STILL waiting...

What has any person who wrote your text books to tell you what logic was done for you? What about your math books? Did you personally meet all these people? Here's a rule that much smarter men than you and I use in discussion/debate...never ask a question that you cannot provide a solid answer for which is grounded in your platform.

Before you continue in the conversation why don't you show that you have a grounding in your own thoughts? Show us all that you are not some random guy who just takes bits and pieces of what someone else says and says "I know how it is" "I'm always right". I thought christians were supposed to be the hypocrites?

Even the very link you posted shows your False sense of knowledge. You may impress a bunch of young kids on a forum, but I'm a grown man. I have degree's on the very topic that we are discussing. You attack my faith, but I am using YOUR method of "logic" (science) to show you that you are WRONG!!!

You have no logic. If you had logic you would be able to construct a post that is not opinion and repeated mockery and rhetoric. If you are going to be atheist or non theist at least have the decency to really learn what that position is about and how to defend it with integrity. The best arguments you have now are reduced to an attempt at misdirection to try to ridicule me in order to gain some sort of applause from fellow forum members. YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO SEE THAT YOU CANNOT ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION USING YOUR LOGIC? This is a very childish way to try to have a conversation or even an argument about anything. Okay, you got jokes, I applaud you. I salute you, I bow my hat to you, now that its done, stand your ground on your statements and show that you got balls to LOGICALLY and INTENTIONALLY defend them.

If you want to dialog, do it if not stop trying to say you got the answer and I don't. I am inviting you to dialog with me. Im willing to sit down and debate you in front of scientists, not priests. You keep trying to act as if I brought up the bible to prove my point, and you keep acting as if I brought up jesus to make my arguments, I didn't, YOU DID!!! You call me a typical thumper, but I am not. I even have friends who don't believe in God, but get a good laugh at your foolish arguements.

I am meeting you on the very ground that you claim proves you are correct in all you say. I am inviting you to show people that you were not just spitting BS when you said, I was wrong about science and religion. You made the statement now put up your evidence. I have put mine up. Stop saying you are using logic and use it. You keep talking all this illogical nonsense, well where is your proof of faulted logic.

I can show where in your previous posts you have NOT used logic at all, but the more you post stuff like this the more you prove my points for me, and the lack of grounding in your own thoughts. I just hope that the same kids that applaud you can understand that you have said nothing that is not purely opinion or borrowed banter. You mock and scoff and call me ignorant, yet I am the one who can put science (proof through observation) where my mouth is.

Lastly, you can have the last word. If you want to really discuss something then lets do it. If its name calling time for you, go for it. You at least seem to be good at it. I got no time for that. Feel free 2 call me names, call me a bible thumper, call me illogical, all you want, negative rep me, whatever, the truth will remain the same: You don't know what you're talking about and you make comments that you say are logic but you can't back them up.

[Ronsam2006]

Good post.

I am saying this because it takes being closed minded to think that science is not a parallel to religion and to be able to ask the question he asked, without being able to provide and answer is showing me that he is not here to gain better understanding of anything, but simply to antagonize.

Meaning, that not everything in science is proven fact. Even the very interpretation of results means that you have to approach your finding with faith. You have to assume that you have covered all your bases, you have to assume that all the methods and the components that make up your experiments were properly understood by past scientist in order to make your results work. You have to believe that there are answers to the questions you are asking, and you have to believe that you can somehow at some point in time come to a realization of those answers. All these things are product of "faithful/hopeful" thinking, which is the way that many religions are structured.

There is no question that Jesus was a real person. There are tons of other writings aside from the Bible to prove his existence. He is not fictional. The Romans kept great records. Even the biblical story of his crucifixion gives enough evidence to be cross referenced. Pontius Pilate, Herod, Peter, John the Baptist...they all exist in non-religious writings from the romans. The Jews wrote about him and there are other records that indicate his actual existence. That is not even a question. The problems with him all come from the claims he made, but Jesus is just as real as MLK or Abe Lincoln.

Good point about the Egyptians...that is one of the cultures that had a much better understanding than we give them credit for.

Your first and second paragraphs are mostly your opinions. I only have one question to your from your third paragraph....Do you believe Jesus was a regular man like MLK and Abe or do you believe he was/is god?

Scientists and archeologists still cannot figure how the Egyptians could have built the pyramids. They say it would take so many different angles of pulleys just to get those humongous blocks in perfect place built so it would not even sink into the sand over time, or it would take thousands of people. The Egyptians always refer to the help of a higher power directly, not the prayers, they meant directly. The pyramids are still a mystery...watch this video, I'm not saying believe it...I don't know if it is true myself, but it will give you an idea of what could be possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvPQc_ssz20&feature=related

This is what I think about life....I think we are just here as every single other living organism is...just a really advanced form. When you see an apple in its natural environment dying, you just look at it as a natural process, you don't zoom into the apple and see individual bacteria eating the apple out, and you don't hear the bacteria talking, living, etc...basically we are just not that small. I think we are the same way, in a sense that we form civilization and cause pollution, grow stuff and it eat it, eat animals, etc...but when you see the earth from a distance, and you look at major civilizations producing smoke, and basically destroying the earth. What if the earth is just an apple in this crazy universe and we are just the bacteria? Just a thought

[BABY J]

You are a growm man and write posts like a 15 year old... way to be a role model and an example for the youngsters who are looking for you to show them that you have some sort of real clout.

I do not care to be a role model for ANY1. Maybe you do --- if so, congrats. I do not think I have enough things figured out about life to direct or MIS-direct any1 and have their blood on my hands. WE are not not here long enough for me to be concerned w/ you - others - and how other view me. I'm not co-dependant.



You mock and scoff and say I'm illogical. If you have found fault in my logic then where are your counter arguments to prove it wrong? the misquoting, and trying to twist context of my words is childish. What are you 30 years old?

Just the same as you are doing. You know why you are still here? Still posting? You are doing this b/c you can't "reach" me. You can't "see" me. You suck at soulwinning and it's getting to you. I haven't given you anything to grab on to in order for you to tear it down... unlike you. This is by design. You are trying to fight something that you can't see... is it fun yet?



First off:

learning how to communicate does not tell them that 1+1=2. And does not tell them that e=mc^2. You knew how to communicate before you started algebra, or science. BTW, what does anything you say have to do with the topic. Now you have reduced your arguments to going back and trying to misquote me, I can do that to, but it gets us nowhere.

Why would a single baby in a room need 1+1 = 2?? You ask a dumb question and provide a STUPID example from day one. A stupid example gets a STUPID answer. So... you put your SINGLE baby in a room... what the FUCK does it need 1+1 for? What does 1+1 provide for a single being in a room? ZERO!!! This baby earns ZERO by knowing that answer -- and LOSES zero by not knowing it. But what happens when you put 2 babies in that same room --- and you drop in 2 bottles. They have to "learn" that "1+1=2" (in reality they don't need to learn this at all, all they really need to learn is that when the bottles are dropped in there is enuff for them both to eat, but I'll play along w/ your dumb example). The only reason that "math" and "language" exist is the need to communicate across lines --- this "need" to understand is what drives existance... and this need is why the Aesops Fables known as the bible exist.



What has any scientist personally done for you? I'm STILL waiting... What has any person who wrote your text books to tell you what logic was done for you? What about your math books? Did you personally meet all these people? Here's a rule that much smarter men than you and I use in discussion/debate...never ask a question that you cannot provide a solid answer for which is grounded in your platform.


I do not claim any SCIENTIST to be my "Lord and Savior" dipshit. Is Jesus your Lord and Saviour? Surely a "walk w/ God" is a personal one -- no? If that is the case then he PERSONALLY must do things for you -- which you have not been able to prove. Sir Issac Newton is not my PERSONAL "Lord and Saviour". He's not my PERSONAL Scientist. But even after his death you can SEE and PROVE and FEEL gravity, although you can escape it and overcome it's forces, it STILL exists. You follow me or should I go on making you look retarded... NOT for getting your opinion out there... but trying to debate it w/ me. In order for you to do that you have to know what I truly think... and I have not given you that... nor will I. What has textbooks done for me? Math alows me to plug in formulas ANYWHERE on the planet and communicate mathematically. THAT is all I require of it - I don't beg the invisible math God's for more --- why, b/c everything that I can see is enough for me in this life. While you --- have to know that Math came from the Numbers God and how he died on the cross and how your life would be nothing w/out his "sacrifice". Speaking of sacrifice --- "God" rose didn't he? Some "sacrifice"... sounds like to he He is an indian giver. Last I checked a sacrifice was something you GIVE UP in exchange for something else... not something you give up and then take back 3 days later.



Even the very link you posted shows your False sense of knowledge. You may impress a bunch of young kids on a forum, but I'm a grown man. I have degree's on the very topic that we are discussing. You attack my faith, but I am using YOUR method of "logic" (science) to show you that you are WRONG!!!

You have degrees? Wecome to the club... as do I. WOW. How do you attain such a degree? Surely some1 TAUGHT you that right? So you are basically going on the ideals of "some guy" who could be wrong. That's funny, b/c that's the very point you argued AGAINST another poster in this very same thread. I do not attack your faith - in fact, I said if it makes you feel better about your existence and makes you sleep better at night then kudos to you - whatever works for you is fine with me, no matter how stupid I think it is.:goodjob:



You have no logic. If you had logic you would be able to construct a post that is not opinion and repeated mockery and rhetoric. If you are going to be atheist or non theist at least have the decency to really learn what that position is about and how to defend it with integrity. The best arguments you have now are reduced to an attempt at misdirection to try to ridicule me in order to gain some sort of applause from fellow forum members. YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO SEE THAT YOU CANNOT ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION USING YOUR LOGIC? This is a very childish way to try to have a conversation or even an argument about anything. Okay, you got jokes, I applaud you. I salute you, I bow my hat to you, now that its done, stand your ground on your statements and show that you got balls to LOGICALLY and INTENTIONALLY defend them.

Ok. I have zero logic. All I am posting is OPINION. Please show me your logic. Show me something that is not OPINION. You can't - hence the topic of the thread is "do you believe" not "can you prove". Welcome to the debate. I couldn't care less about any1 on this board than I do right now. We share a mutual hobby - we are not "friends" - we don't do dinner unless it's car-centric... we don't do movie dates unless those movies are about cars. I do not live to get the favor, hand-claps and/or approval of strangers. Swing and a miss.




If you want to dialog, do it if not stop trying to say you got the answer and I don't. I am inviting you to dialog with me. Im willing to sit down and debate you in front of scientists, not priests. You keep trying to act as if I brought up the bible to prove my point, and you keep acting as if I brought up jesus to make my arguments, I didn't, YOU DID!!! You call me a typical thumper, but I am not. I even have friends who don't believe in God, but get a good laugh at your foolish arguements.

Oh I assure you sir that I'm getting all of the LOLs here. This long-winded post of yours proves my point that you can't AFFORD to be proven wrong... why? B/c you go to hell. There are LOTS of Gods... LOTS of religions... you can't AFFORD to be wrong or your whole life is a lie. What a mind fuck. I don't belive in God... that affords me PLENTY of time to sit and have some1 provide a view to me and BACK IT UP - I learn something this way. There are not RIGHT and WRONG answers here.. we know this, that's why this thread probably exists on every major message board that will allow it. But you know what there IS? There is good old SAT style answers like "this answer is more right" --- and you better believe that IMO I am more right than you are. Are you not smart enough to know that you can't argue OPINIONS?? You do know this right? "This apple pie tastes better than that one." - LOL. You're the guy who stays up to 3am arguing w/ a guy on the internet about that one while your wife is in the other room w/ a fire in between her legs that needs to be put out. YOU CAN'T WIN A DEBATE ABOUT OPINION!! Move it along... there is nothing else to see here.




I am meeting you on the very ground that you claim proves you are correct in all you say. I am inviting you to show people that you were not just spitting BS when you said, I was wrong about science and religion. You made the statement now put up your evidence. I have put mine up. Stop saying you are using logic and use it. You keep talking all this illogical nonsense, well where is your proof of faulted logic.


HAHA - evidence? You put up evidence?? That's laughable. Your soul-winning mission failed miserably. It will continue to fail w/ me b/c at the end of the day I don't GIVE a fuck where we came from... I do not choose to serve a being who "has all power in his hands" yet does nothing but watch pain, suffering, dieing for HIS OWN CREATION! All in the name of "love". The WORST PERSON I know would give up his life to end all suffering... while your "God" could only "think" about it and make it right. You are OBVIOULSY not well-traveled... and if you are, I imagine you went to the "kool" vacation spots. I know this b/c of your stance. Tell you what... I'll PAY for your ticket to D'jbouti Africa... I'll PAY for your lodging for 14 days --- you tell me what you see when you walk down the street and come back and tell me there is a guy who is watching it all unfold, has the power in 1 eyelash to fix it and won't.

You THINK b/c you got your miracle mortgage payment outta nowhere that one time last spring that your faith has been tested? LAUGHABLE. You think that b/c you were cured of cancer that He exists? You think that b/c you were SOOO suicidal and are a ex-druggie and now that you're clean "GOD" made it happen - LAUGHABLE. Tell you what Sherlock... do 2 Baghdads (I HAVE). Do 3 Afghanistans (I HAVE). Do Somalia (I HAVE --- TWICE). Do Horn of Africa (I HAVE). Do counter-drug anywhere in S. America (I HAVE). Do the worst spots in Thailand where the most SEASONED soldiers literally fall to the ground like a bitch, refuse to walk and have to be carried to the infirmary from seeing only 30 seconds worth of half a block of an entire country that's in the tank. Do THAT, and if you come back a believer I'll give you a PERCENTAGE of a minute of my time to argue your fucked up "opinion" on how good God is. KTHNXBYE

[boostedb16]

i vote yes.

[Barefoot]

i put undecided but im more of a border line atheist. with every day that goes by i get pushed closer and closer.

[sport_122]

Your first and second paragraphs are mostly your opinions. I only have one question to your from your third paragraph....Do you believe Jesus was a regular man like MLK and Abe or do you believe he was/is god?

Scientists and archeologists still cannot figure how the Egyptians could have built the pyramids. They say it would take so many different angles of pulleys just to get those humongous blocks in perfect place built so it would not even sink into the sand over time, or it would take thousands of people. The Egyptians always refer to the help of a higher power directly, not the prayers, they meant directly. The pyramids are still a mystery...watch this video, I'm not saying believe it...I don't know if it is true myself, but it will give you an idea of what could be possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvPQc_ssz20&feature=related

This is what I think about life....I think we are just here as every single other living organism is...just a really advanced form. When you see an apple in its natural environment dying, you just look at it as a natural process, you don't zoom into the apple and see individual bacteria eating the apple out, and you don't hear the bacteria talking, living, etc...basically we are just not that small. I think we are the same way, in a sense that we form civilization and cause pollution, grow stuff and it eat it, eat animals, etc...but when you see the earth from a distance, and you look at major civilizations producing smoke, and basically destroying the earth. What if the earth is just an apple in this crazy universe and we are just the bacteria? Just a thought


Do I believe Jesus was God in the flesh? I do. My reasons are based on faith and the things that are written in the Bible and history about his life which because of the scientific process has to be taken on faith. Some people act as if the very existence of Jesus is in question. It is not. Middle East and Roman historians laugh at people who claim Jesus did not live at all. Historians have records from Rome and from the Jewish history that show that Jesus walked and talked on this earth. There are records to show that there were claims of miracles where at least some believed that he was working miracles, and he believed he was. Also, the accounts written are not the only miracles said to have been worked by Jesus. There is more to it. Historians claim that Jesus did not just have 12 men around him. There were many people near Jesus, some looking to find fault, some out of curiosity and some because they believed him to be the Messiah, promised in the Jewish tradition. I read some of Josephus writings, who was a roman historian from the early first century. He spoke about Jesus and the early followers and the rumors of miracles that the gods had empowered them to do. Check him out...don't take my word for it. Also check out Tactus.

Yes my first paragraph is my opinion, but science itself does not even deny that it is not 100%. if you have time watch the video you sent and listen to those scientist discussing the lack of certainty on the history of the pyramids. That is one reason that even scientific results are calculated with a margin of error. The simple process of observation changes which also denotes that previous results were not complete. Science is not 100%, but I welcome you to give me an example that's you may have in your head.

on the Egyptians/pyramids/UFO, you may be very surprised that i actually believe in life on other planets or dimensions or whatever. I think that (especially believers) who think it isn't possible are not reading their own texts which in some places talks about beasts that have several heads or that dawn wings etc. I believe that they have been here on this planet and may still be here. I believe they had regular contact with ancient societies. There is just nothing more to go on.

I respect your opinion on who we are and our significance, I just don't agree with it. I see life as more than that. I don't want to go into that.

but all the things I have said are contributors to my reasoning for believing that God is real.

[sport_122]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvPQc_ssz20&feature=related



by the way did you watch the other two videos. I like em. good find:goodjob:

[MaRk2k]

lol at all the confused souls in here.

[BABY J]

I like your last post SPORT... I really do. And no I am not being funny. My last Dept. of Defense job afforded me the opportunity to know more about UFOs than most people on the planet

Sr. GCCS Systems Analyst (as well as TBMCS, and C2PC)
NORAD - Cheyenne Mountain - AFSPACE (US Space Command )

Sadly... my security clearance doesn't afford me the opportunity to speak about a lot of it (there are SOME things that I can say). But trust me when I say... every "quack" you see being viewed as a tard on the news saying he saw a UFO is not always a tard.

But I also am not sure how the bible connects the dots between "God" creating "other" life-forms. Old writings (not even biblical) document this in amazing detail sometimes - which I think is quite interesting.

[Ronsam2006]

Do I believe Jesus was God in the flesh? I do. My reasons are based on faith and the things that are written in the Bible and history about his life which because of the scientific process has to be taken on faith. Some people act as if the very existence of Jesus is in question. It is not. Middle East and Roman historians laugh at people who claim Jesus did not live at all. Historians have records from Rome and from the Jewish history that show that Jesus walked and talked on this earth. There are records to show that there were claims of miracles where at least some believed that he was working miracles, and he believed he was. Also, the accounts written are not the only miracles said to have been worked by Jesus. There is more to it. Historians claim that Jesus did not just have 12 men around him. There were many people near Jesus, some looking to find fault, some out of curiosity and some because they believed him to be the Messiah, promised in the Jewish tradition. I read some of Josephus writings, who was a roman historian from the early first century. He spoke about Jesus and the early followers and the rumors of miracles that the gods had empowered them to do. Check him out...don't take my word for it. Also check out Tactus.

Yes my first paragraph is my opinion, but science itself does not even deny that it is not 100%. if you have time watch the video you sent and listen to those scientist discussing the lack of certainty on the history of the pyramids. That is one reason that even scientific results are calculated with a margin of error. The simple process of observation changes which also denotes that previous results were not complete. Science is not 100%, but I welcome you to give me an example that's you may have in your head.

on the Egyptians/pyramids/UFO, you may be very surprised that i actually believe in life on other planets or dimensions or whatever. I think that (especially believers) who think it isn't possible are not reading their own texts which in some places talks about beasts that have several heads or that dawn wings etc. I believe that they have been here on this planet and may still be here. I believe they had regular contact with ancient societies. There is just nothing more to go on.

I respect your opinion on who we are and our significance, I just don't agree with it. I see life as more than that. I don't want to go into that.

but all the things I have said are contributors to my reasoning for believing that God is real.

I am definitely not going to take anyone's word or written proof for the existence of Jesus. He has not done anything for me and that is not even my faith. I am an atheist and until I get my own proof, I will not believe Jesus or any other gods existence. Is it possible that he exists? Sure, anything is possible...but I need more than a book telling me this. The pyramids you can believe is a modern marvel, no one has been able to emulate the exact build and cannot imagine how the pieces were put together. The Bible could have been re-written a few times though. COULD is the key word.

I agree Science has a margin of error, but technology along with evolution has been able to make this margin of error so small, that it barely effects us. This is real proof as we know it, produced through science and mathematics brought down to the smallest margin of error, probably way more accurate than a book passed down generation after generation, especially when know people, including the most influential and religious figures lie, cheat, steal, etc...do you get where I am going with this?

It's like asking, "Who would you trust, person A who has been PROVEN to be 99.9% accurate or person B that CLAIMS to be 100% accurate? Person A is science and is right 99.9% and that .1 that he is off by is the margin of error. Person B is religion. Again this is all my opinion.

What do you see life as? How is the President of the U.S. any more significant than me, in a living organism sense? Sure, he is socially the most powerful man in America, but technically speaking, he is just another living organism that contributes to the progression of another generation of life.

[BABY J]

It's like asking, "Who would you trust, person A who has been PROVEN to be 99.9% accurate or person B that CLAIMS to be 100% accurate? Person A is science and is right 99.9% and that .1 that he is off by is the margin of error. Person B is religion. Again this is all my opinion.



QFT. It's a dangerous man who thinks that his knowledge is absolute beyond the point of accepting or even considering other ideas. This man (and his ideas/stance) is even MORE dangerous w/out an OUNCE of "proof", or w/ "proof" that's not even remotely solid. Science allows the potential to be proven wrong when INTELLECTUALLY challenged w/ sound observation - this is an arbitrary process. Religion does not allow for this... they have "arrived" to the absolute --- that's a SLICK SLOPE to base your life/kids and 10% of your income to every Sunday... especially when you use a handed down document to prove itself. Anytime you use a document to prove itself you're slow-dancing w/ a cult.

[sport_122]

I am definitely not going to take anyone's word or written proof for the existence of Jesus... The Bible could have been re-written a few times though. COULD is the key word.


I can understand you not believing in the divinity of Jesus. I think for the most part the only documents that support those claims are of religious origin, but to deny he ever lived? That is why I listed these people. The people I listed are the historians, not religious writers, of the time period where Jesus of Nazareth was a walking talking man and shortly there after. These people would be just as credible as the historians that discuss the pyramids and historical Egypt, except they would have been more accurate because they were not thousands of years apart which denotes even more accuracy. If its about believing or not believing what is written, then do you believe that Paul Revere, John Hancock, Benjamin Franklin, Abe Lincoln or any of these people were ever alive. Most of what we know about them are from what people wrote about them.

Even the discussion on evolution which starts with Charles Darwin. If you don't look at what people write about him why would you take anything he started or said seriously? The same goes for Einstein or any other theorists or scientist that has not been alive in 50+ years. I guess I am curious at that statement as well, because scientists are using those writings and documentation from early periods to try to determine the validity of their observations. it just seems odd to subscribe to science and its findings, but disagree with the approach. Maybe its just me.



I agree Science has a margin of error, but technology along with evolution has been able to make this margin of error so small, that it barely effects us. This is real proof as we know it, produced through science and mathematics brought down to the smallest margin of error, probably way more accurate than a book passed down generation after generation, especially when know people, including the most influential and religious figures lie, cheat, steal, etc...do you get where I am going with this?

Technology is applied science, and evolution is scientific theory... so I don't understand what you mean. I read it as:

"I agree science has a margin of error, but technology(applied science) along with evolution (a scientific theory) has been able to make this margin of error so small, that it barely effects us...:thinking:"

This is a confusing statement using the practical definitions of technology and evolution. But I think you are saying that the advances in science are decreasing margin of error? The problem lies in that statement. You should not use inaccurate creations of the origin to justify or define the accuracy of the origin. This erases the ability to make errors.

Also, the Bible is translated from its original greek and hebrew texts. The more we learn about historical languages and cultures, the more we are provided with the ability to make sure that we can properly translate texts in their proper context. The new translations of the bible are typically done for accuracy, which is hard to do when the original language has meanings and uses for words that we do not use in modern times.

Its like solving a math problem, getting it wrong, but changing the equation instead of your answer in order to make your answer right. or
1+1=3. being told thats wrong, but then saying the problem itself should have been 1+2 to justify your answer when in actuality it was wrong.
so its a bad practice to try to use products of the process to test the accuracy of that process.

I understand having an issue with religious figures as well. But I don't think that alters the foundations of what the religion stands for. And I agree, most "christians I know are poorly educated on the foundation of their own faith, but why choose to blame the faith. 3

For instance, most of our government is poorly run. Most of our laws are poorly written, but we still don't say that we should have no government, or no laws because people are breaking them and politicians are corrupt. Because we understand the foundations of the laws. That is the habit with religion. We want to blame religion when the problem lies within the men and women who are abusing the terms. Are you a bad parent because your kids disobey your rules? Should speeding laws be retracted because some people abuse and ignore them? Should police officers not be allowed to carry guns because some of them fire them without just cause? Science makes mistakes and people misuse technology all the time, but do we say we should stop creating things and ignore scientific progress? So why is there a double standard for christians/religious people?

The margin of error for science is much more than a tenth of a percent. I think the reason that I would not put faith/trust completely into science, is that throughout history there have been more changes and counter opinion in science. Theories, new sciences, scientific debunking, corrected theories, etc have plagued the scientific community since the wide spread use of the scientific method. So what I am understanding is that PROVEN only means that it has not been found to be inaccurate yet.

but I do not deny the importance of science. its is only when we try to separate it from faith and treat it as if it is the solution to the problems of our world while religion is the culptrit that I have a fundamental problem.

Quick question: in a world with no religion what becomes the replacement for the personification of faith and hope? this is purely an opinionated question.

[DynamicSound]

You have it right there. Weak minded people have to believe in something to get through their life.

[BABY J]

Quick question: in a world with no religion what becomes the replacement for the personification of faith and hope? this is purely an opinionated question.

You just said it -- "personification". Root word - person... as in PERSONAL. Anytime your "hope" or "faith" comes from another being... then you are setting yourself up for failure.

In basic training - there were guys praying to pass PT or challenges. I didn't need that "external" FAUX energy. I said to myself -"I AM GOING TO DO IT". THAT is personal... THAT is personification.

I've seen people literally pray to pass tests in college -- some flunk, some pass. I pulled that energy from INSIDE and I did just fine. People pray... if they get what they wanted "God" gets the credit. People pray... and when they DON'T get what they pray for and it's "God didn't mean for me to have it" --- HOLY FUCK that is a slick slope. :( :no: It's VERY sad that people can't/don't give themselves enough credit and need an external catalyst or explanation on why/how they exist. Bc at the end of the day, there is not a SINGLE person on this planet who has gotten what they prayed for w/ any repeatable amount of success... you don't always get what you pray for in life, you don't always get what deserve in life... you get what you get. When will people realize this?

[sport_122]

You just said it -- "personification". Root word - person... as in PERSONAL. Anytime your "hope" or "faith" comes from another being... then you are setting yourself up for failure.

You cannot live without hope and faith in other things. You pay taxes(for gov't services), you ask people for advice, you care or have love for people. all these things are conducive of not living for self and only self interest. In fact if you were living for self interest I don't know why you would care what other people put their faith in. It wouldn't matter to you and you would believe that nobody should care or listen to what you have to say anyway because they should all be focused on what they want.

Life itself for all things depends on someone or something else doing its job. You just don't seem to believe that any of the infinite number of other factors relate to you. I believe they do.

You went to basic, I am assuming you are in service or participated in ROTC or reserves. (Thanks for that BTW). If you did then you should know the importance of brother hood and how all parts of the military have to sync up in order for it to function properly. Without faith that one soldier is going to watch your back the marines would not have the incredible code of conduct that they have. The faith they have in one another is powerful enough to drive them to lose their lives for their brothers and their country. Is that wrong?

You buy a house, you get a loan, that takes other people keeping good records on you. You pay cash for that house. That takes your employer or business continuing in success to be able to supply you with funds. On public roads you expect the car next to you to stay in their lane. You expect them to look and give you space when they want to get over. 99% of your day is conducive of someone else doing what is normal to you.

There are 6+billion people in this world. 6+billion people have different desires throughout. No two are exactly alike. Common faith keeps these people from becoming so individualistic that you don't care and you ignore the need for faith and hope in others.


you don't always get what you pray for in life, you don't always get what deserve in life... you get what you get. When will people realize this?

I agree, but I don't focus on the negative of that statement. because it can also be written.

You get some of the things you pray for, you get some things in life that you work for and "deserve", but if you never pray and never work for some of those things, then you never get them.

For your tests, you didn't just say, I can do it. You put work into it. You prepared yourself. You can't do that without someone else giving you the information that you need to learn.

My point is that you cannot only rely on yourself and completely drop trust in other things/people and live a happy life. unless you want to be miserable, but then you would still be happy because you wanted to be miserable and you got what you wanted.:D

[BABY J]

You cannot live without hope and faith in other things. You pay taxes(for gov't services), you ask people for advice, you care or have love for people. all these things are conducive of not living for self and only self interest. In fact if you were living for self interest I don't know why you would care what other people put their faith in.

This is where you miss me, and where most people miss me --- this has plagued my relationships (romantic) as well as family. I TRULY do not give a shit about other people who are not on the ship that I am on at any given time. I can give 2 shits about who wastes their life assuming that they are going to go to heaven. There is only so much time and effort that I will give "helping" people understand why I think it's a failboat. IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!!! If MY life doesn't involve ME getting what J'SON wants when J'SON wants it then what's the point? There isn't one.


It wouldn't matter to you and you would believe that nobody should care or listen to what you have to say anyway because they should all be focused on what they want.

I like you already. I really DON'T care if any1 listens to what I have to say or think... you are describing me at my core perfectly. I can "play the game" to co-exist in society, but at the end of the day every1 I've ever known or ever will know can eat shit and die. LOL. It's not a choice I made one day --- it's literally how I view things by no fault of my own.


Life itself for all things depends on someone or something else doing its job. You just don't seem to believe that any of the infinite number of other factors relate to you. I believe they do.

I understand all of this... but your question wasn't about the dependencies of things on other things... or the dependencies of people on other people. Your question was "in a world with no religion what becomes the replacement for the personification of faith and hope?" --- yet you coutner my answer w/ topics that have no bearing on religion (taxes, asking people for advice, if i care if people listen to me). You're all over the place but you can't see that.



You went to basic, I am assuming you are in service or participated in ROTC or reserves. (Thanks for that BTW). If you did then you should know the importance of brother hood and how all parts of the military have to sync up in order for it to function properly. Without faith that one soldier is going to watch your back the marines would not have the incredible code of conduct that they have. The faith they have in one another is powerful enough to drive them to lose their lives for their brothers and their country. Is that wrong?

This is where you miss me again. I NEVER put trust in any1 the many times I have been to war. That's how you come home dead. I have pretty close to ZERO trust in some1 if the result of me being wrong for trusting them means I come home in a body bag. How did I remedy this when I was in the Air Force?? I learned MY job --- and I learned the job of the guy next to me. "I" watch my back... always have, always will. If you say you are going to pick me up for work at 7a, there is some1 else that knows to pick me up at 730 -- u show up, I cancel w/ my plan b and plan c, etc.


There are 6+billion people in this world. 6+billion people have different desires throughout. No two are exactly alike. Common faith keeps these people from becoming so individualistic that you don't care and you ignore the need for faith and hope in others.

This is pretty close to saying that religious faith is the basis for respecting your neighbors or having a sense of morals. If some1 needs to identify themselves relgiously in order to gain moral absolute then they have more problems than they know. Suggesting you have to be a Christian to have a sense of moral absolute, or that morality comes from the Christian God, is patently ridiculous. It absolutely ignores the majority of the world's population that manages to live a more peaceful and harmonious life than our Christian forebears and I maintain that's a superior "morality."



I agree, but I don't focus on the negative of that statement. because it can also be written.

You get some of the things you pray for, you get some things in life that you work for and "deserve", but if you never pray and never work for some of those things, then you never get them.

In this case... what is the point?? If the cards are going to fall however they want regardless... then why waste time praying that they will fall in your favor? You're setting yourself up for fail. And your logic is faulty here --- I don't pray for ANYTHING. I don't pray for sick people just bc some1 asks. I do "hope" that they get better... but I don't "pray" to a "certain" theistic entity (God) and charge Him w/ forcing that result... that's ridiculous.



For your tests in college, you didn't just say, I can do it. You put work into it. You prepared yourself. You can't do that without someone else giving you the information that you need to learn.

Again. I'm an opportunist. I learned Japanese ONLY b/c I lived in Japan and needed to barter and trade for the things that J'SON wanted to get. I "learned" information in college to get the grade that J'SON wanted to get the degree that J'SON wanted to get the job that J'SON wanted to get the money that J'SON wanted to buy the things that J'SON wants. But like you said "I prepared MYSELF". The information was available to the people that FLUNKED as well. I do not possess anymore aptitude for retaining information than they do. By your agument, the fact that the information is there should mean by putting faith in the INFORMATION that any1 could recall said information and pass. AT THE END OF THE DAY --- I PREPARED MYSELF. Thank you for agreeing... you're provingmy point perfectly. ;)


My point is that you cannot only rely on yourself and completely drop trust in other things/people and live a happy life. unless you want to be miserable, but then you would still be happy because you wanted to be miserable and you got what you wanted.

Let's say that I agree w/ this statement -- what does this have to do w/ RELIGION and GOD?? I do NOT believe in either and I am in the top 10% of salaries (per careerbuilder.com) - I enjoy my life --- great health - healthy offspring - I could go on. NO WHERE in attaining this happiness is "believing in God" responsible for this.

I'll leave you w/ some food for thought...

All religions depend on appeals to authority as a justification for their beliefs and dogmas. Since there is no contemporary, unambiguous way to demonstrate the claims of supernaturalism, citations to prior authorities are used as the primary means of justification. Thus we get the words of the founders or prophets as well as commentaries from others gathered into various foundational books... some of which you have posted in this very thread SPORT. Modern religious leaders cite some special connection with the past as the source of their present "authority."

Difficulties arise from both the conflicting claims of competing contemporary religions as well as from discrepancies within the dogma of each religion itself. People who are dissatisfied with some aspect of their current religious affiliation often switch to another that they find more in keeping with THEIR own view of the world. (this is where personalization comes in... and how in the END you are leaning on YOURSELF and pulling from INSIDE just the same as I do and just the same as I explained above).

You basically say science sucks and is inaccurate. Yet you are WELL aware of the research, math and CONCISE efforts/tools used in any science... correct? Well.. given this degree of unknowability in the world of SCIENCE it seems unsurprising that you would take the statements of religious leaders or the writings of a-jabillion year-old "prophets" (who even at the pinacle of smartness had nowhere NEAR the intelligence of a simple college grad from today) trustworthy. By your own words... the rest of our world is too complicated for surety, so why not is the belief in the supernatural as well?? Why does the supernatural get the magic nod?

Religious believers should apply the same critical tests to all forms of authority and not let appeals to "faith" lead to unquestioning trust.:goodjob:

[BABY J]

^^ EDIT

[Ronsam2006]

I can understand you not believing in the divinity of Jesus. I think for the most part the only documents that support those claims are of religious origin, but to deny he ever lived? That is why I listed these people. The people I listed are the historians, not religious writers, of the time period where Jesus of Nazareth was a walking talking man and shortly there after. These people would be just as credible as the historians that discuss the pyramids and historical Egypt, except they would have been more accurate because they were not thousands of years apart which denotes even more accuracy. If its about believing or not believing what is written, then do you believe that Paul Revere, John Hancock, Benjamin Franklin, Abe Lincoln or any of these people were ever alive. Most of what we know about them are from what people wrote about them.

This whole paragraph leads me to believe that you are trying to make me believe in something. Comparing Jesus to the pyramids is ridiculous, and comparing the historians that wrote about Jesus to the historians that wrote about the Pyramids is ridiculous. One is an architectural marvel and the other is a debatable mystery. I am not asking for the credibility of the historians, because there is no way you can prove it other than a document.


Technology is applied science, and evolution is scientific theory... so I don't understand what you mean. I read it as:

"I agree science has a margin of error, but technology(applied science) along with evolution (a scientific theory) has been able to make this margin of error so small, that it barely effects us...:thinking:"

This is a confusing statement using the practical definitions of technology and evolution. But I think you are saying that the advances in science are decreasing margin of error? The problem lies in that statement. You should not use inaccurate creations of the origin to justify or define the accuracy of the origin. This erases the ability to make errors.

I was not referring to the theory of evolution, but rather the advancement of science. Historians, architects, geologists etc all over the world use APPLIED science and technology to determine history.


Also, the Bible is translated from its original greek and hebrew texts. The more we learn about historical languages and cultures, the more we are provided with the ability to make sure that we can properly translate texts in their proper context. The new translations of the bible are typically done for accuracy, which is hard to do when the original language has meanings and uses for words that we do not use in modern times.

Its like solving a math problem, getting it wrong, but changing the equation instead of your answer in order to make your answer right. or
1+1=3. being told thats wrong, but then saying the problem itself should have been 1+2 to justify your answer when in actuality it was wrong.
so its a bad practice to try to use products of the process to test the accuracy of that process.

I think what you are trying to say is, it is very hard to translate ancient text. I agree with you completely, but if this is the case, how can you believe in a lot of it. Translating Hebrew text is an age old process that is confusing. You know how the words in this language hold a numerical value, so a lot of the words have been lost in translation, like the words God and Love have the same numerical value.


I understand having an issue with religious figures as well. But I don't think that alters the foundations of what the religion stands for. And I agree, most "christians I know are poorly educated on the foundation of their own faith, but why choose to blame the faith.

For instance, most of our government is poorly run. Most of our laws are poorly written, but we still don't say that we should have no government, or no laws because people are breaking them and politicians are corrupt. Because we understand the foundations of the laws. That is the habit with religion. We want to blame religion when the problem lies within the men and women who are abusing the terms. Are you a bad parent because your kids disobey your rules? Should speeding laws be retracted because some people abuse and ignore them? Should police officers not be allowed to carry guns because some of them fire them without just cause? Science makes mistakes and people misuse technology all the time, but do we say we should stop creating things and ignore scientific progress? So why is there a double standard for christians/religious people?

I never blamed the religion for the shitty people in it. I never blame the law when I see a power hungry cop, I just blame the person. You keep misunderstanding me, I never said stop the religion, but I will not believe in it. What's so hard to understand with that? You know what I hate, missionaries and random people that try to convince me into the religion. This goes to anyone----What makes you so your religion so right, that you must go around spreading it?


The margin of error for science is much more than a tenth of a percent. I think the reason that I would not put faith/trust completely into science, is that throughout history there have been more changes and counter opinion in science. Theories, new sciences, scientific debunking, corrected theories, etc have plagued the scientific community since the wide spread use of the scientific method. So what I am understanding is that PROVEN only means that it has not been found to be inaccurate yet.

How can you say the margin of error for science is more than .1? For which science are you referring to? The numbers I stated were just to make a point, not real numbers. Proven means it has been proven through applied mathematics and science to work for the reason it was created for without defects.



Quick question: in a world with no religion what becomes the replacement for the personification of faith and hope? this is purely an opinionated question.
In a world with no religion, you choose what is right or wrong, not your religion. LOL

[Fuhrer]

Ahh, debating about religion has always been my favorite topic.

A simple yes or no answer would suffice, maybe followed by a short story as to why or an event that has caused them to turned one way over the other, but it can't be that simple can it? Nope. Everyone gets all asshurt when someone doesn't believe, and the believers have this unexplainable urge to defend it. Why is that?

Did you think that someone would read something like evolution isn't real and be like omg, they are probably right, I believe in god now.

That works on 3 year olds.

[Fuhrer]

Do I believe in 'God,' yes or no? No.

In my opinion, Christanity is simply the most recent in a long line of religions dating back to when neanderthals/early humans quelled their anxieties about existence and death through made-up 'supreme beings.' The Gods of ancient Rome and Egypt were no more invalid as today's incarnations at the time. Egyptians had no knowledge of 'Christ' or the Christian 'God' because that particular religion had not been invented yet. But their gods of the time suited them just fine. There was no Christian heaven or hell during that epoch but I can bet you Ra and his fellow Egyptian gods had the same promises of delight mixed with damnation.

I do also believe there must be life elsewhere in the universe. And in, perhaps, multiple universes. We're talking sheer numbers here. You can use the Drake Equation and arrive at approximately 10,000 unique and technological civilizations in our Milky Way galaxy alone. Multiply that by the number of galaxies in our obsevable universe (200 billion, give or take) and I think you can see that life is most likely abundant in the cosmos.

Evolution? Yes, proven. Fruit flies can mutate at an incredible rate. That's why they're so popular with researchers. Mutation is the backbone on which Darwin's work was based. A slight genetic mistake that would turn out to be either beneficial or, at worst, fatal to an organism. Those that accidently received a 'good' mutation perhaps gained bigger wings as to avoid predators more efficiently. This allowed the newly-mutated bird a greater chance of surviving and passing on this new advantageous gene. Those with a newly-acquired 'bad' gene mutation (again, by chance alone)would be more susceptible to disease or deformity and would not be as likely to procreate succesfully. Genes don't care if they give you the prettiest blue eyes or a huge tumor. They just do what they're programmed to do.

Here are my thoughts on my own death...

1) Suspend heartbeat and breathing.
2) Lose consciousness forever.
3) Decompose.

No pearly gates in my future. Whatever it is that is me will simply cease to exist.

[BABY J]

^^ Will you marry me?

[Ronsam2006]

Do I believe in 'God,' yes or no? No.

In my opinion, Christanity is simply the most recent in a long line of religions dating back to when neanderthals/early humans quelled their anxieties about existence and death through made-up 'supreme beings.' The Gods of ancient Rome and Egypt were no more invalid as today's incarnations at the time. Egyptians had no knowledge of 'Christ' or the Christian 'God' because that particular religion had not been invented yet. But their gods of the time suited them just fine. There was no Christian heaven or hell during that epoch but I can bet you Ra and his fellow Egyptian gods had the same promises of delight mixed with damnation.

I do also believe there must be life elsewhere in the universe. And in, perhaps, multiple universes. We're talking sheer numbers here. You can use the Drake Equation and arrive at approximately 10,000 unique and technological civilizations in our Milky Way galaxy alone. Multiply that by the number of galaxies in our obsevable universe (200 billion, give or take) and I think you can see that life is most likely abundant in the cosmos.

Evolution? Yes, proven. Fruit flies can mutate at an incredible rate. That's why they're so popular with researchers. Mutation is the backbone on which Darwin's work was based. A slight genetic mistake that would turn out to be either beneficial or, at worst, fatal to an organism. Those that accidently received a 'good' mutation perhaps gained bigger wings as to avoid predators more efficiently. This allowed the newly-mutated bird a greater chance of surviving and passing on this new advantageous gene. Those with a newly-acquired 'bad' gene mutation (again, by chance alone)would be more susceptible to disease or deformity and would not be as likely to procreate succesfully. Genes don't care if they give you the prettiest blue eyes or a huge tumor. They just do what they're programmed to do.

Here are my thoughts on my own death...

1) Suspend heartbeat and breathing.
2) Lose consciousness forever.
3) Decompose.

No pearly gates in my future. Whatever it is that is me will simply cease to exist.
I'm loving your 1st and 3rd paragraph. I agree with your 3rd paragraph about Evolution 100%. Nothing to debate on that. However, when you talk about the Drake equation, you are simply guessing numbers. The equation really can't hold any value as they are guessing most of the numbers involved in it. Also the fact that the Earth's atmosphere is very unique. The chances of other similar life-breeding planets existing in the Milky Way is high, but nothing close to the Drake's equation. Even though I have no proof to back my previous statement up, science is not something that can be guessed up, and that is exactly what Drake did in that equation. Some of those numbers can never even be calculated.

[Fuhrer]

The chances of other similar life-breeding planets existing in the Milky Way is high, but nothing close to the Drake's equation. Even though I have no proof to back my previous statement up...


Nothing close to Drake's equation? Let me use your own words against you; you have no proof to back up your previous statement. Although any type of extraterrestrial civilizations haven't been discovered doesn't mean that there cannot be hundreds if not thousands of civilizations out there. Drake's equation is just that; an equation.

Something to work with not be taken as hardcore actual fact.

[Fuhrer]

^^ Will you marry me?


As long as we don't get married in a church, then yes, I accept.

[BABY J]

Touche! :)

[sohcEX]

Yep I believe

[steelmatt6]

Yes

I do believe in God! I believe Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for the sins humanity committed. We as humans are a very interesting ourselves. Why? We are not perfect. Many people think that there is nothing wrong with them, and numerous people are brought up in a "It's all about me" state of mind. But, it's not. We are all capable of great love and compassion, but also great hate and destruction at the same time.

So, why are we even here? I like to believe that life itself is somewhat like the ultimate test. God puts us on this earth with a free will, so that we may learn from our natural sinful nature, and try to be the best that we can be.

No matter what you believe, as long as you are happy with yourself, then it should not matter! If most people can accept that, then maybe we will all be able to learn the truth someday! As far as God, and may individuals thinking that he is never there for them, ask yourself "Is it God that has turned his back on me, or have I turned my back on God?"

We all find a newfound faith at points in our lives. We may lose our faith for awhile, and gain it back because of an act of a miracle. It's all about learning, and gaining the knowledge about yourself and the lives around you, which will reveal who you truly are. Many of us don't even know ourselves. Each day, we learn something new.

In my opinion, God will always be there when you need him. No matter what you believe, or what you don't believe, God will always be there for you if you call for him. If you truly open up, and you are true to yourself, you will hear him. One way or another, he will always be there. Maybe some of us are just not looking!

Sorry for the long post.

[btstone]

i just spent way to much time reading like 7 pages of this. WOW

evolution is and will never will be proven. its just a theory ppl. if you think a big bang or what ever can make a world so perfect. i wonder what else goes on in your mind.

i am no perfect example to follow, but damn, what are they teaching our kids in schools now-a-days

[BABY J]

^^ I assume that you have proof of God then... yes?

[btstone]

^^ I assume that you have proof of God then... yes?

walk out side and look at nature. proof of God is right there.
there is also a study that was done in the Arctic Circle about ice caves and how nothing could have evolved with in them due to the harsh climate. yet there is still live living within the caves...give me a few and i will find the study.....im at work so i gotta find time to do it

[BABY J]

I'm just picking at you man -- don't waste time out of your life providing that data. :) When every1 learns that we are arguing OPINIONS then they will accept some1 else's view a lot better. :) The only advantage I say that I have by not believing is the potential to be proven wrong (being proven wrong means that you are learning something). Religious zealots are not afforded that, b/c in their mind they have arrived at the absolute... and that's a slick slope IMO.

I'm all about letting people be who they wanna be though -- Cheerio. :cheers:

[yojimbo]

walk out side and look at nature. proof of God is right there.
there is also a study that was done in the Arctic Circle about ice caves and how nothing could have evolved with in them due to the harsh climate. yet there is still live living within the caves...give me a few and i will find the study.....im at work so i gotta find time to do it
This post of yours contradicts your previous post... because your first said that the evolution theory has yet to be proven and that it is only a theory, yet in this one you say that there is a "study" of life in ice caves, glaciers or whatever you want to call em, but that's proof enough of organisms evolving and adapting to that harsh environment. you asked what our school's are teaching kids these days -- well, just look back in history and take a look at the accomplishments atheists and other anti-religion people made and you tell me.

[KIZDAWAY]

Do I believe in God, yes or no? :???:

The universe is incredibly massive. Nevertheless, its mass must be spectacularly fine-tuned for life to be possible. Exactly how massive the universe is remained unknown until astronomers focused the Hubble Space Telescope on a patch of sky no bigger than a tenth the Moon's (angular) diameter, and held it there for some 278 hours (1million seconds). This Ultra Deep Field (picture below) successfully imaged all the galaxies (at least those bigger than dwarfs) that exist in that region.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg153/kazdaway/hs-2004-07-a-large_web-1.jpg
The field contains roughly 10,000 galaxies. By extrapolation, then, astronomers determine that the entire observable universe contains at least 200 billion galaxies. These galaxies contain an estimated average of 200 billion stars each. The total number of stars in these galaxies, then, is 40 billion trillion. The unobserved dwarf galaxies would contribute an estimated additional 10 billion trillion. Thus, the total number of stars in the observable universe adds up to about 50 billion trillion.
...........................fifty billion trillion stars that's an unimaginably enormous universe. And yet the universe is more massive by far. The stars, both those that are still shining and those that have burned out, account for just one percent of the universe's total mass!

One reason the universe must be so massive is that life requires it. The density of protons and neutrons determines how much of the universe's hydrogen fuses into heavier elements. With a slightly lower density (producing fewer than about 50 billion trillion observable stars), nuclear fusion would be less productive and at no time in cosmic history (either in the big bang or in stars) would elements heavier than helium be produced. Or, if the density were slightly higher (producing more than about 50 billion trillion observable stars), nuclear fusion would be so productive that only heavier-than-iron elements would exist. Either way, life essential elements such as carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorous would be too scarce or nonexistent.

Another life-related reason the universe must be so massive is that the cosmic mass critically influences the universe's expansion rate. If the mass density were smaller, the influence of gravity would be too weak for stars like the Sun and planets like Earth to form. On the other hand, if the mass density were greater, only stars much larger than the Sun would form. Either way, the universe would contain no stars like the Sun or planets like Earth, and life would have no possible home. The required fine-tuning is so extreme (one part in a quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion) that if one were to remove or add a single dime's worth of mass to this vast cosmos, the balance of the observable universe would be thrown off and physical life would not be possible .

God spoke it and it stood fast

[sport_122]

BABY J....we really need to get a UFO, E.T. thread going...that could be pretty fun hearing what people think.


^^ I assume that you have proof of God then... yes?

I have an abundance of evidence that makes it logical for me to believe. But the very nature of a transcendent God means that our methods of proof will not be able to define or articulate his existence.

It is impossible to prove God. Not because there is no evidence, but because most people who believe in God believes that he is responsible for creation, and the atheistic and some scientific minds ould not accept anything that is subject (created by or under the rules of) to the thing to be proven to be used as proof of that things existence.

For instance, they say you can't use the Bible because it is defined by believers to be the word of God therefore it cannot be used. But if you believe God created all things then nothing serves as sufficient proof to the mind that refuses to objectively ask questions about the evidence prevented. Mostly because everything can be tied back to the Bible because it gives God credit for creating ALL things.

And to finish, this same point goes both ways. Science does not disprove the existence of God. In fact, the inability of scientists to account for our cosmological laws, the universally applicable tool of logic as we see it in living things and in our universe is not accounted for.

Example: science cannot give reason as to why we can look at the universe and reasonably know that there is order and that certain types of matter respond and act certain ways. A lawless universe does not allow for such deduction and without the ability to do so, there is no grounds for scientific observation and theory because the rules of observation would be non-existent based on a totally chaotic and non-specified universe.


But those of you who think evolution disproves God are sorely mistaken. The Biblical account says that God created man from dirt(the dust of the earth). That is the only detail that we have. That God created life from non-life. The origins of the evolution theory are now finding themselves having to answer the question what was the first thing. We know it wasn't lightning mixed with the perfect cellular cocktail. We could assume a comet, but that still does not account for original life in our universe. So what are they looking at now? Abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is the theory that life can come from non life. This is the idea of some evolutionists, but it actually will make the theists argument stronger, because that is the ONLY criteria that was given in the bible. And not only was it stated in the Bible, but the validity of such statement is solid when at the time that was written there would have been no way on earth that men would have been able to imagine and understand or conceptualize saying that life came from non life. There was nothing that would have demonstrated that to them yet they wrote it down in all of its original nonsense, but now we are investigating its probability.

This will be interesting to see how this argument plays out in future debates.



When every1 learns that we are arguing OPINIONS then they will accept some1 else's view a lot better. ...

True, although some of us bring decent reason and rationale to our beliefs and some of us are just saying what we heard our pastor or some guy on TV say without really investigating into any of their claims.


Religious zealots are not afforded that, b/c in their mind they have arrived at the absolute... and that's a slick slope IMO.
That is not necessarily true. Some staunch religious people are willing to apply developing knowledge and understanding into their beliefs. I think the clash is that some people think that some of these things should serve to disprove the beliefs of the religious person, when it is almost impossible because their world view dictates that they believe already. therefore all of their interpretation of new scientific discovery will be reflected through that scope. And I think its obvious that I don't believe the Bible gives many scientific specifics that we have to argue with and this belief affords me the same opportunity that you have. It would be a different story if the Bible were a scientific book and it had data that would could really test and understand. But because it doesnt I can have my own personal thought on how something happened, but I also am flexible enough to know that those things are mostly assumptions coming from my limited understanding of the world, history, and God. I guess it is my scientific approach to understanding God, while my spiritual approach to believing in Him and knowing him rests in the character demonstrated in the Bible.

But I can't put my eggs in the science basket when it is obviously a developmental institution. It will always change, and it will never know all things because there will always be questions.


This post of yours contradicts your previous post... because your first said that the evolution theory has yet to be proven and that it is only a theory, yet in this one you say that there is a "study" of life in ice caves, glaciers or whatever you want to call em, but that's proof enough of organisms evolving and adapting to that harsh environment. you asked what our school's are teaching kids these days -- well, just look back in history and take a look at the accomplishments atheists and other anti-religion people made and you tell me.

umm no... organisms do not evolve to live in the arctic, they adapt. Much like you would if you moved to the pole tomorrow. Or much like we all do as the seasons change. We adapt. Also I don't know what research he is talking about but he specifically said, "nothing could have evolved because of the climate".

Lastly with your last sentence I am not sure if you are about the science and what it states or if you are about the atheists or anti-religion message. People like Richard Dawkins have surely clouded this relationship, but to say it easily, you can believe in evolution and be into science and still be a believer or involved in religion. There is nothing about science that says that religion is wrong, or that you should be a scientists and not a religious person. In fact science has its foundations based on faith that we will eventually have the ability to understand our world in much greater detail. There is faith invovled in the scientific process. Even Richard Dawkins said that men are wired to have faith in something.

I just don't get down with mixing science with rhetoric because that ignores the fact that science is neutral in this discussion. It does not prove definitively one way or the other. I am not sure if it ever will.

[geoff]

found an interesting video on youtube that made a scientific approach to prove God. anyone care to discuss? link is below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1J5kX4Cubc

[btstone]

This post of yours contradicts your previous post... because your first said that the evolution theory has yet to be proven and that it is only a theory, yet in this one you say that there is a "study" of life in ice caves, glaciers or whatever you want to call em, but that's proof enough of organisms evolving and adapting to that harsh environment. you asked what our school's are teaching kids these days -- well, just look back in history and take a look at the accomplishments atheists and other anti-religion people made and you tell me.

the organisms never evolved. they have aways been there and have never changed. i dont contradict myself ever..re-read my post. dont plug words in my post

[Buttons]

I don't believe in God.

Do I believe there could be a superior being? maybe.

More than likely, there's nothing. I think it's just all fate.

[geoff]

buttons who dictates that fate? how can there be fate " a set plan for your life" if there is no higher being who made your fate? something cant come from nothing and fate cant be a consequence of randomness or nothing. God is very real...we all have it wired in our dna to look up at the stars and ask why are we here? what is our purpose? its faith that God uses to first get our attention and when you use faith and search for Him whole heartedly He will reveal Himself to you. when you said do you believe that there could be a superior being and answered maybe you were half way there. all you have left is to search and find out who that being is. The end result might just shock you. i can tell you that you might not believe in God but He believes in you and each one of us. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ

[btstone]

I don't believe in God.

Do I believe there could be a superior being? maybe.

More than likely, there's nothing. I think it's just all fate.

you think it was fate you were born? are you happy with being an accident? "it was fate my daddy didnt pull out of my mom, and it just so happen that fate decided that sperm would travel to an egg"!

thats not what anyone should accept. if God never existed than we would be totally self sufficient. there would be no consequences.

[yojimbo]

the organisms never evolved. they have aways been there and have never changed. i dont contradict myself ever..re-read my post. dont plug words in my post

sorry but you have no evidence to support that claim of yours...
how do you know that the organisms have been there since the beginning of time? who told you that lie? are you confused as to what evolution actually is or do you just not wish to understand it or put any effort into reading up on it?

polar bears, sea lions, walrus', pinguins, ect. all evolved and adapted to the arctic environment... so, what makes you think microorganisms didn't?
am i wrong here? or were they placed there in a snap of a finger?

[Buttons]

you think it was fate you were born? are you happy with being an accident? "it was fate my daddy didnt pull out of my mom, and it just so happen that fate decided that sperm would travel to an egg"!

thats not what anyone should accept. if God never existed than we would be totally self sufficient. there would be no consequences.

It was fate that my mom and dad decided to have a baby and it happened. What you think God planned you? LOL Don't be ridiculous. Religion is some of the biggest bullshit I've ever seen and people use it as a crutch.

How does God make us self-sufficient? How does it make it so there is consequences?

[AnthonyF]

I want to believe that there is something up there and that when I pass away I am not gone forever and ever. Which I am deathly afraid of. Scares me right now just typing it.

But, evolution is everywhere and it looks to be the correct belief.

-Ant.

[geoff]

you say that fate was decided by your parents? what you fail to realize is that God formed you in the womb and breathed the breath of life into you( your soul). and yes God planned me, He knew me before i was formed and has my entire life planned out, the same goes for you and all of us. there is no such thing as an accident and God is the one who dictates fate. i agree with you that religion is pretty messed up these days. God never intended for us to make it what it is today. He doesnt call you to any religion but a relationship. Anthony F...there is hope for you and all of us. God is very real and very interested in your soul and life. no one said evolution was wrong.

[geoff]

evolution and science are tools God uses to help us explain the world around us. evolution is not all wrong or all right. God was the creator...things adapted to their surroundings and survived because God put that instinct in us. remember, nothing could not produce everything because then there would be no potential to create anything.

[Buttons]

you say that fate was decided by your parents? what you fail to realize is that God formed you in the womb and breathed the breath of life into you( your soul). and yes God planned me, He knew me before i was formed and has my entire life planned out, the same goes for you and all of us. there is no such thing as an accident and God is the one who dictates fate. i agree with you that religion is pretty messed up these days. God never intended for us to make it what it is today. He doesnt call you to any religion but a relationship. Anthony F...there is hope for you and all of us. God is very real and very interested in your soul and life. no one said evolution was wrong.

must refrain from...

okay, i'm good now..


Please explain to me how he is able to do this to every single human being? Is the same treatment done to animals? Because animals are made the same way humans are. They might not be as advanced, but same concept. A mommy and daddy have sex and then a baby(ies) is(are) made.

There is no such thing as an accident? Oh please. That doesn't even make sense. So if you are so "into" God. You've never yelled at your parents, right? You are saving yourself for marriage, right? You are only gonna be with one woman, right? etc. etc. etc.

God can't be interested in everyone. He's a "superior being" I know, but why do people use it as a crutch?

[geoff]

He is able to do this with every single human being because like you said HE is a "superior being". and He gave all creatures godlike power by being able to procreate. the difference with humans and animals is that he doesnt breath in a soul to animals. and thats right there are no such things as accidents. newton said "every action has an equal or opposite reaction". so then every cause has an effect and you cant have one without the other right? so hence no accidents. and yes i am very "into" God but i wasnt always. im 21 and came to God when i was 19. im not a virgin but i havent had sex since i made my commitment and i am with one woman now who i am marrying. and yes i have yelled at my parents and done alot worse, but no one is perfect thats why Jesus died on the cross..to give us forgiveness. and yes God is interested in everyone and can be. HE is our creator and just like when and if you have children your going to be interested in all of them not just one or two. and i dont use God as a crutch. He is my direction and guidance in life. whichever path i take is my ultimate decision.

[Buttons]

He is able to do this with every single human being because like you said HE is a "superior being". and He gave all creatures godlike power by being able to procreate. the difference with humans and animals is that he doesnt breath in a soul to animals. and thats right there are no such things as accidents. newton said "every action has an equal or opposite reaction". so then every cause has an effect and you cant have one without the other right? so hence no accidents. and yes i am very "into" God but i wasnt always. im 21 and came to God when i was 19. im not a virgin but i havent had sex since i made my commitment and i am with one woman now who i am marrying. and yes i have yelled at my parents and done alot worse, but no one is perfect thats why Jesus died on the cross..to give us forgiveness. and yes God is interested in everyone and can be. HE is our creator and just like when and if you have children your going to be interested in all of them not just one or two. and i dont use God as a crutch. He is my direction and guidance in life. whichever path i take is my ultimate decision.

I believe in Newton's laws. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". I believe in Fate. I believe that there could be a superior being. But God/Christianity, not so much. I was a Christian for over 12 years of my life. Around 13, I decided to be Agnostic. It is a personal choice.

But whatever path you take, should be the path God choose for you. So where is free will?

[btstone]

sorry but you have no evidence to support that claim of yours...
how do you know that the organisms have been there since the beginning of time? who told you that lie? are you confused as to what evolution actually is or do you just not wish to understand it or put any effort into reading up on it?

polar bears, sea lions, walrus', pinguins, ect. all evolved and adapted to the arctic environment... so, what makes you think microorganisms didn't?
am i wrong here? or were they placed there in a snap of a finger?
yes you are wrong....you can not prove evolution. you can try to feed me a bunch shit darwin said about fruit flies mutating and birds and etc. still no proof..

im not sure if i was placed here by a snap or just a command. ill have to check on that

[geoff]

I believe in Newton's laws. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". I believe in Fate. I believe that there could be a superior being. But God/Christianity, not so much. I was a Christian for over 12 years of my life. Around 13, I decided to be Agnostic. It is a personal choice. But whatever path you take, should be the path God choose for you. So where is free will? __________________


well if you believe in newtons law and you believe in fate then how do you still believe in accidents or chance? and you said you were christian until you were 13 years old? like i said its a personal relationship with God. and i hope one day you get a chance to come back to that. and yes the path you choose should be the path God has for you because thats the one that leads to salvation and the one that leads to eternal life and happiness. where is free will? free will is that you dont have to choose Gods path for you. you can choose to live life how ever you choose. you can live a life pleasing to your flesh and do whatever you want and not worry about the consequences or you can live a disciplined life and live it for God. thats free will.

[btstone]

It was fate that my mom and dad decided to have a baby and it happened. What you think God planned you? LOL Don't be ridiculous. Religion is some of the biggest bullshit I've ever seen and people use it as a crutch.

How does God make us self-sufficient? How does it make it so there is consequences?

Free will. yes. if i wasnt planned then i or you would be wondering around your entire life with no purpose and never accomplish anything.

[Zach79zx]

I want to believe that there is something up there and that when I pass away I am not gone forever and ever. Which I am deathly afraid of. Scares me right now just typing it.

But, evolution is everywhere and it looks to be the correct belief.

-Ant.

Exactly, took my thoughts and put them into words :goodjob:

[geoff]

for zach and anthony. like i said. there is hope guys. if you have a bible pick it up and start in the new testament, thats Gods promise for everyone.

[sport_122]

I want to believe that there is something up there and that when I pass away I am not gone forever and ever. Which I am deathly afraid of. Scares me right now just typing it.

But, evolution is everywhere and it looks to be the correct belief.

-Ant.

Evolution should not be looked at as a belief. It is a scientific theory that gives a suggestion as to HOW. Faith in the existence of a transcendent God (all powerful, and not fully known or understood) does not necessarily give a HOW.

For instance: you believe that birds exist, but it doesn't tell you how they fly. Or you believe that cars are real but that doesn't tell you how they work or what they do.

I agree with Geoff and as a believer I do not doubt evolution in most cases (there are several different versions of evolution) I think there are HUGE holes in the theory, but I believe there are some valid points. But until a complete fossil record is found then nobody can even say that evolution is 100%, we can just say there is evidence.

Also, my world view does not lead me to believe we have a free will. I believe we have the ability to make choices, but not a free will. For instance, in a multiple choice question, you have the option to select A, B, C, or D. You cannot select F unless it is given as a possible answer. So even in your ability to make choices, your options are limited as well. And what gets even crazier is that choices made apart from us dictate how we will establish our choices. Pointing back to some causal event that began the process of responses and decisions which will echo and place us where we are to be. But i digress free will cannot logically exist in the finite and only in the infinite can 1 free will logically exists. I believe that 1 will governs and establishes all universal laws which is why our universe is seen as consistent and predictable when we observe it.

[Buttons]

I want to believe that there is something up there and that when I pass away I am not gone forever and ever. Which I am deathly afraid of. Scares me right now just typing it.

But, evolution is everywhere and it looks to be the correct belief.

-Ant.

I have had the same thoughts before. I had to take a nap to shake it off.

[Buttons]

I would love to debate this, but there is too many close minded people. Reason why I only talk about these subjects with other Agnostic/Atheist people is because they are open to listen to everything... Not just promote the bible and Christianity with every single argument they have.

We are supposed to be able to discuss this, not just push the bible on someone. Do you really think saying "God is right ... blah blah" is actually going to change someone's mind that has already made their decision? Just because you think your opinion is right, does not mean that everyone else thinks it is correct.

If one religion was "better" or "more correct" than another, then that would be the only religion. Religion was made, because different groups of people separate and started a belief on their "takes on life". That's all it is. Just like how language was formed over the years. You don't speak primarily English in Latin America countries, you speak Spanish. Just like prodominantly there is English in the USA and not Spanish.

When the first people were on the earth, they spoke the same "sound" language and probably believed in the same things. Then when they broke off to follow the food, after so long of learning new things and seeing new things, they began their own language and their own beliefs. People living in sand all the time are going to thing different then people living in the woods all the time. It's just how it is.


CLIFFS: Just if you are going to continue in this discussion, have other things to say then bible this, bible that, and God blah blah blah. Use factual things. I don't care to read the bible and nothing anyone is going to say will give me an epiphany.

[collins]

~enters~ :no: ~leaves~

[geoff]

i am open to any discussion/debate and am expressing what i believe to be truth. and your in a RELIGION forum so of course ima use the bible lol. and in case you have misread any of my posts i have been using facts all along. and i never said any religion was correct or wrong. i said a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God is what counts. you will find whatever religion suites you and your beliefs best after. and agnostic/atheism are not religions, they are beliefs. and you no what...ima say it and offend some one. Christianity and Jesus Christ=right!!! watch the link to the youtube video i posted. and your right religion was made by men...thats why God Himself came down in flesh as Jesus to preach truth. no other religion/God comes close to being scientifically plausable or comes close to being rational. if u think of 1 lmk...lets hear the atheist/agnostic side

[Buttons]

i am open to any discussion/debate and am expressing what i believe to be the truth

That's fine. You grew up differently then me and have a whole different mindset then me.


and your in a RELIGION forum so of course ima use the bible

you don't have to keep telling them about the path of god and what not.


i said a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God is what counts. you will find whatever religion suites you and your beliefs best after.

this doesn't even make sense. Whatever religion suites me after my relationship with god? If Agnostic fits me the best, then i don't need a relationship with god. There is nothing wrong with my beliefs.


Christianity and Jesus Christ=right!!!

You can think that, but that doesn't mean you are right. I don't even think everyone needs a religion. Your belief is all that counts in the end. And my belief is always going to be different than yours. You don't see me pushing my beliefs on you or saying that my beliefs are more correct than yours.

No one is absolutely right and no one ever will be.

[speedminded]

i am open to any discussion/debate and am expressing what i believe to be truth. and your in a RELIGION forum so of course ima use the bible lol. and in case you have misread any of my posts i have been using facts all along. and i never said any religion was correct or wrong. i said a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God is what counts. you will find whatever religion suites you and your beliefs best after. and agnostic/atheism are not religions, they are beliefs. and you no what...ima say it and offend some one. Christianity and Jesus Christ=right!!! watch the link to the youtube video i posted. and your right religion was made by men...thats why God Himself came down in flesh as Jesus to preach truth. no other religion/God comes close to being scientifically plausable or comes close to being rational. if u think of 1 lmk...lets hear the atheist/agnostic sideOh wow. Someone should enter the definition of close-minded into wiki and urbandictionary all summed up into one word, "Geoff".

Christianity and Jesus Christ is right for YOU. Good for you. Now how has it made you a better person in helping the world? Something that is GOOD doesn't need advertising. 2,000 years later if you have the best product available from everyones experiences and use of it then it will be a monopoly. Every house hold on earth will be using it, or living by it. Not even Billy Mays could sell Christianity on everyone.

"Right religion"? How on earth do you know what is right? Because you read it? Because you "feel" it? If that what it takes to make YOU the person you should be then so be it.

What is scientifically plausible or even rational about religion?

[geoff]

first...i dont have to keep telling them about the path of God...wrong. you grew up in church you know that Jesus told the disciples to spread the word.

second...i dont believe everyone needs a religion but they do need a relationship with God. but...the bible clearly states that we need to hear the word preached.

last...there will be someone right in the end...God. the bible says that on Jesus' return every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. i just dont wanna or want anyone to be on the side that says it too late...hence me witnessing to people. im curious...you say your agnostic so by your own beliefs you admit that you dont know if there is or isnt a God because a lack of metaphysical evidence. so with all those questions why not seek some answers? and not answers from any man but from God Himself? what do you have to lose in trying?

[Buttons]

Not even Billy Mays could have sold Christianity on everyone.

fixed for ya.... :goodjob: hahahhahaa

[geoff]

Oh wow. Someone should enter the definition of close-minded into wiki and urbandictionary all summed up into one word, "Geoff". Christianity and Jesus Christ is right for YOU. Good for you. Now how has it made you a better person in helping the world. Something that is GOOD doesn't need advertising. 2,000 years later if you have the best product available from everyones experiences and use of it then it will be a monopoly. Every house hold on earth will be using it, or living by it. Not even Billy Mays could sell Christianity on everyone. "Right religion"? How on earth do you know what is right? Because you read it? Because you "feel" it? If that what it takes to make YOU the person you should be then so be it. What is scientifically plausible or even rational about religion? __________________

i am open-minded about hearing others beliefs and will discuss them and my own. how has it made me a better person? its given me a purpose to my life. to be a good example, to be kind, to try and help others (financially, spiritually,ect) as much as i can. and im not advertising or trying to sell christianity to anyone. i am simply giving an alternative to all the "theories" out there to what i found to be TRUTH. and how is religion plausible or rational...i meant to say that God is rational and plausible. whats not plausible about christianity? tell me how atheism or agnostic belief is plausible?

[Buttons]

second...i dont believe everyone needs a religion but they do need a relationship with God. but...the bible clearly states that we need to hear the word preached.

But this concept of your God comes from Christianity.... :thinking:

If I believed in God and had a relationship with him, that would make me believe in Christianity.


last...there will be someone right in the end...God.

How do you know this? Because the bible says so? If I wrote a book on my beliefs and had a few million follow, would that make me right? No.


you say your agnostic so by your own beliefs you admit that you dont know if there is or isnt a God because a lack of metaphysical evidence.

i don't know if there is a superior being... It may or may not be a god(s).


so with all those questions why not seek some answers?

I do read up on stuff. When I open my eyes, I realized that Christianity wasn't for me.


and not answers from any man but from God Himself?

How can I get answers from "God himself"? The fucking bible? People can't even correctly translate it to English, so how can I know it is the absolute truth? You should just stop. I will believe in what I want to, just like you can. There is no reason to be ignorant.

Definition of Ignorant... The lack of knowledge, before anyone says I'm personally attacking you.

[geoff]

i respect your beliefs...im not trying to "convert" you. just pass on some knowledge. and i pray that God would show Himself to you and show you "truth". God bless you, whether you believe in Him or not.

[Buttons]

i respect your beliefs...im not trying to "convert" you. just pass on some knowledge. and i pray that God would show Himself to you and show you "truth". God bless you, whether you believe in Him or not.

Then why are you continuing like a broken record? I know everything that you have already said. God isn't what is needed for everyone. I'm glad he has made you a better person, but believing in God won't change the person I am. I know many people who are bad that are Christians. It doesn't change who YOU ARE. It just gives you something to believe in.

[geoff]

a "true" christian is a changed person. the bible says they are a "new" man. and going to church and reading the bible doesnt make you a christian so there are no such things as "bad" christians or churches. you either live for God whole heartedly or you dont. there is no middle ground. and i wont discuss this anymore with you since your not up for it. my bad. God bless

[Buttons]

it's just you aren't making much sense. besides telling me basically how right you are and you are telling the absolute truth.

[speedminded]

first...i dont have to keep telling them about the path of God...wrong. you grew up in church you know that Jesus told the disciples to spread the word.

second...i dont believe everyone needs a religion but they do need a relationship with God. but...the bible clearly states that we need to hear the word preached.

last...there will be someone right in the end...God. the bible says that on Jesus' return every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. i just dont wanna or want anyone to be on the side that says it too late...hence me witnessing to people. im curious...you say your agnostic so by your own beliefs you admit that you dont know if there is or isnt a God because a lack of metaphysical evidence. so with all those questions why not seek some answers? and not answers from any man but from God Himself? what do you have to lose in trying?Who says the Bible is more right than any other article ever published? Because it's sold more? It's sold more because it's solely the basis of the largest controversy on earth. It's a collection of peoples experiences, most weren't even written for years after then they translated multiple times after that.

I want to know how Christianity and believing in God has made you a better person for other people, not as a determination for after-life.

Take TOMS Shoes for example, no where does it mention religion in their movement to help the world. The founder could be atheist for all you know, maybe he's a Christian or he may practice Buddhism. You don't know but it doesn't matter because his movement has helped prevent infections and serious illness of over 140,000 children in poverty stricken countries, just by providing them with shoes. I think religion was created to point people in a direction like they have done.

http://www.tomsshoes.com/content.asp?tid=227

Just like I've done countless mission trips, but do I need a church to drive down to Mexico and install a new roof on a house? No.

Do I need God to tell me I should help a women with a flat change on the side of the road? No. What if I were to get hit by a car while changing it for someone else? Would I blame God? No. I would be thankful it was me and not the other person.

Would I need religion to go to Central America and teach dozen of farmers how to use natural resources to irrigate their crops so an entire community can survive a drought? No.

Is religion needed to go to Asia and teach an entire civilization how to effectively filter water after 1,000's of died and contaminated the soil following a nature disater to prevent thousands of more deaths? No.


The only person you should believe in is yourself. If someone can't do that yet then yes they need "God" until they can.

[BABY J]

first...i dont have to keep telling them about the path of God...wrong. you grew up in church you know that Jesus told the disciples to spread the word.

second...i dont believe everyone needs a religion but they do need a relationship with God. but...the bible clearly states that we need to hear the word preached.

last...there will be someone right in the end...God. the bible says that on Jesus' return every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. i just dont wanna or want anyone to be on the side that says it too late...hence me witnessing to people. im curious...you say your agnostic so by your own beliefs you admit that you dont know if there is or isnt a God because a lack of metaphysical evidence. so with all those questions why not seek some answers? and not answers from any man but from God Himself? what do you have to lose in trying?

When does the bible say that this will happen - LOL.

[BABY J]

i respect your beliefs...im not trying to "convert" you. just pass on some knowledge. and i pray that God would show Himself to you and show you "truth". God bless you, whether you believe in Him or not.

KNOWLEDGE is not disputable. What you're passing on is information - which IS disputable. Kthnxbye.

[geoff]

you dont need religion to be a good person. thats not the issue here. i honestly dont have an answer to answer you baby j or speedminded. you have your belief and i have mine and since when is knowledge not disputable? you never stop understanding or growing in knowledge. something we are sure of today in 50 years could be different. knowledge is limited by experience and ever changing hence it IS disputable. i will be prayin for you guys. god bless

[BABY J]

...


The only person you should believe in is yourself. If someone can't do that yet then yes they need "God" until they can.

Stop making sense - you're scaring me. You cut that out this instant!!

[btstone]

sorry but you have no evidence to support that claim of yours...
how do you know that the organisms have been there since the beginning of time? who told you that lie? are you confused as to what evolution actually is or do you just not wish to understand it or put any effort into reading up on it?

polar bears, sea lions, walrus', pinguins, ect. all evolved and adapted to the arctic environment... so, what makes you think microorganisms didn't?
am i wrong here? or were they placed there in a snap of a finger?

sorry, you have no evidence either

they didnt evolve, they adapted. learn the correct definitions

[sport_122]

I would love to debate this, but there is too many close minded people. Reason why I only talk about these subjects with other Agnostic/Atheist people is because they are open to listen to everything... Not just promote the bible and Christianity with every single argument they have.

CLIFFS: Just if you are going to continue in this discussion, have other things to say then bible this, bible that, and God blah blah blah. Use factual things. I don't care to read the bible and nothing anyone is going to say will give me an epiphany.

do you want to DEBATE or PERSUADE. Debating denotes you would discuss it and give your reasons and evidence. Persuading means that you would do so IF you felt people would listen and be changed. Thats more like what people would associate with an evangelical...like Geoff. The only difference is you two are on opposite sides of the discussion.


We are supposed to be able to discuss this, not just push the bible on someone. Do you really think saying "God is right ... blah blah" is actually going to change someone's mind that has already made their decision? Just because you think your opinion is right, does not mean that everyone else thinks it is correct.


You cannot have a discussion about a persons beliefs or a debate on such without discussing the foundation of their beliefs. For instance, even as a person who does not believe, I am sure some of your reasons are based off of things you don't believe to be correct in scripture.


If one religion was "better" or "more correct" than another, then that would be the only religion. Religion was made, because different groups of people separate and started a belief on their "takes on life". That's all it is. Just like how language was formed over the years. You don't speak primarily English in Latin America countries, you speak Spanish. Just like prodominantly there is English in the USA and not Spanish.

That is really bad logic and not even close to accurate based on history and biology. Even one of the foremost atheists (Richard Dawkins) says that he believes that all men are wired to be believers and somehow in our history we have always believed because without it we would not be forward thinking individuals. Also, if one "x" was better then there would be only one because everyone would be doing that specific "x"... I don't think so. Also, you guys are using religion to mean different things. I would not push "RELIGION" on anyone, yet I will sit down and give you evidence for why I believe the way I believe and I have plenty of reasons. From the standpoint of someone who is infuriated by people spreading their legalistic forms of religion/faith, I can understand your frustration, and I should let you know that is one of the things about the foundation of faith in Christ that is important to the Christian. Its NOT about your efforts. Its not about how good you are and the good deeds you do. Its about grace because we cannot live up to the standard set before us by God.

But as Chris Hedges (an atheist) says: "atheists and agnostics need to stop blaming the religions and the systems that people of faith subscribe to and start realizing that the actual problem is one that is existent in the hearts of ALL MEN. We are all broken. The world without religion is one that too many atheists ask for, yet it truly could be the end of society, because if you believe the religious zealot bad now, just imagine the world when they have given up on their unfaltering desire to please their God through restraint and humility." I paraphrase this to say that we are all messed up in some way. That is why the christian believes in the need for an outside assistance if we are to be reconsiled.

[sport_122]

The only person you should believe in is yourself. If someone can't do that yet then yes they need "God" until they can.

Believe in yourself for what? What does that mean? Believe in yourself to go out and serve the needs of others. Believe in yourself to do the right thing. Sure people can do that. No problem and you don't need to be religious to do it, but I am not sure where this entire statement fits in the flow of this thread.

How does that make you any different than people who believe that a car bomb is the will of God or people who believe in themselves who think that religious people should be purified (erradicated). What tells me that your beliefs matter when our two beliefs in self conflict? What tells an army in africa that their belief in self does not give them the right to torture rape and steal from the communities. What tells the people in asia that it is not right to prostitute young girls, or people in europe that sex trafficing is wrong.

so when your worldview says, believe in yourself what do you mean because not all help is help, not all change is good, not all quests for peace are bloodless. What is the belief in self fix for these things?

My point is that if life is about self and interpreting good for others then that can easily be oil and water and if we are waiting for people to believe in self what happens when their "self belief" violates yours?:thinking:

I mean understand the good side of what you are trying to focus on but this does not change the human condition. We are a really bad society overall and there is no shortage of scholars today or through history that believe we are very capable of pushing ourselves towards extinction because of a promoted world view of self interests. So how is this a good world view?

dont get me wrong, I am not saying that a religious world view is better. I am saying that you are completely ignoring the human element of all world views. This is why I believe people need a common standard to uphold. Without one, we have seen that we cannot function and to ask for a world without one is to ask for more genocide and more persecution because our history tells us that most of the people in this world are NOT humanitarians, and the ones who are not have the biggest guns pointed at the ones who are.

[geoff]

amen sport 122. reps for you man. and thanks for the evangelical compliment. just trying to do what Gods word asks me to. the bible can be a double edged sword at times. it can protect you and lift you up or cut you down.

[Zach79zx]

for zach and anthony. like i said. there is hope guys. if you have a bible pick it up and start in the new testament, thats Gods promise for everyone.

No sir, thats "gods" promise for you. I am not trying to be an asshole but you cant force or guilt other people to believing in what you believe. Thats the problem with religion, its like building an army to take over other peoples beliefs, who ever has the most people wins the war. I dont want to be apart of that.

[btstone]

No sir, thats "gods" promise for you. I am not trying to be an asshole but you cant force or guilt other people to believing in what you believe. Thats the problem with religion, its like building an army to take over other peoples beliefs, who ever has the most people wins the war. I dont want to be apart of that.

that is an unfair statement. i am a christian. my basic beliefs are prob close to geoff's. have a i tried to convert you? have I tried to make you feel guilty about not believing what i believe? i would love it if you were a christian and believed in salvation, but you dont. I am not here to preach it to you, i am here to follow my path God has chosen for me. if you want to follow as i do then that is great. if you dont, i could honeslty give less than a shit!

thanks

[btstone]

Then why are you continuing like a broken record? I know everything that you have already said. God isn't what is needed for everyone. I'm glad he has made you a better person, but believing in God won't change the person I am. I know many people who are bad that are Christians. It doesn't change who YOU ARE. It just gives you something to believe in.

just because they say they are christians doesnt mean a thing. if i told you i was a bird, would you believe it. follow people's actions, not the words they say. that will tell you where the heart really is

[BABY J]

that is an unfair statement. i am a christian. my basic beliefs are prob close to geoff's. have a i tried to convert you? have I tried to make you feel guilty about not believing what i believe? i would love it if you were a christian and believed in salvation, but you dont. I am not here to preach it to you, i am here to follow my path God has chosen for me. if you want to follow as i do then that is great. if you dont, i could honeslty give less than a shit!

thanks

Wow. Just wow. This is the problem w/ "Christians" right here. LOL. Amazing.

[btstone]

Wow. Just wow. This is the problem w/ "Christians" right here. LOL. Amazing.

so the problem is that i said a "bad" word. oh no. dont go to mommy. i wasnt perfect. oh no. point made!

[geoff]

sorry zach didnt wanna make you feel like i was being pushy or trying to make you feel guilty. you said you were worried about life after death and it scared you. i simply tried to give you an option. and baby j...true christians dont act like the rest. you can tell them apart. God bless

[btstone]

sorry zach didnt wanna make you feel like i was being pushy or trying to make you feel guilty. you said you were worried about life after death and it scared you. i simply tried to give you an option. and baby j...true christians dont act like the rest. you can tell them apart. God bless

some how i feel that was aimed at me..lol

[geoff]

no lol. none of us are perfect. all fall short, its only Gods grace that keeps us around.

[BABY J]

LOL @ BSTONE --- as much as I hate him I love him - LOL.

[Zach79zx]

that is an unfair statement. i am a christian. my basic beliefs are prob close to geoff's. have a i tried to convert you? have I tried to make you feel guilty about not believing what i believe? i would love it if you were a christian and believed in salvation, but you dont. I am not here to preach it to you, i am here to follow my path God has chosen for me. if you want to follow as i do then that is great. if you dont, i could honeslty give less than a shit!

thanks

This is a perfect example of what i mean, other sides of the battle field. You feel as if i lashed out towards christians or your beliefs. The fact of the matter is that you feel better about yourself by "shutting me down" grow up dude seriously. As for your questions no, this is the first time i have ever even commented in this section or even quoted you so that is an unfair statement :goodjob:

[Zach79zx]

sorry zach didnt wanna make you feel like i was being pushy or trying to make you feel guilty. you said you were worried about life after death and it scared you. i simply tried to give you an option. and baby j...true christians dont act like the rest. you can tell them apart. God bless

I am sorry for my "snappy" take on your comment as well, and yes i did feel as if you where being pushy. The reason why is because i have been banned from a church for speaking my mind openly and honestly to several church members and in public, so if i seem like an asshole i truly apologize, thats not the way i mean it.

[sport_122]

I am sorry for my "snappy" take on your comment as well, and yes i did feel as if you where being pushy. The reason why is because i have been banned from a church for speaking my mind openly and honestly to several church members and in public, so if i seem like an asshole i truly apologize, thats not the way i mean it.

What was this about? I am surprised that even the most liberal churches would respond to free speech in such a way. I know some do, but mostly when you look at those ministries they are cults trying to please a specific person and not so keen on the teachings of the word.

[geoff]

zach im very sorry to hear that man. i have been to a few bad churches myself that when i was younger ran my mom out of there because she got divorced. they would talk bad about her and one of the ministers actually tried to seduce her when she went to him in confidence. please dont let that mess up your whole view on christianity. people will fail you everytime. God is the only one that wont. believe it or not there are actually decent churches out there that care for people and treat them like family. i found one of them and they took us in with open arms. every male is a member of the board and has a say so. i pray God would heal your heart. God bless

[yojimbo]

yes you are wrong....you can not prove evolution. you can try to feed me a bunch shit darwin said about fruit flies mutating and birds and etc. still no proof..

im not sure if i was placed here by a snap or just a command. ill have to check on that
with the average life-span of a normal human-being, one cannot physically observe evolution,
but you keep saying that I am wrong when you have about the same proof that i do about evolution as you do about God and his existence.

we're both on the same river of knowledge... only difference is that my boat is a couple miles ahead of yours. if you're so curious as to how you came to exist just ask your parents what they were thinking before they had sex -- did your father nut inside your mother on purpose or was it an accident? a birth is usually a mistake or accident... according to recent studies. some deity did not tell your parents to have sexual intercourse and bare a child. never was there any other party involved...

... yet there is no reasoning with close-minded people. I came to realize that years ago.

[btstone]

with the average life-span of a normal human-being, one cannot physically observe evolution,
but you keep saying that I am wrong when you have about the same proof that i do about evolution as you do about God and his existence.

we're both on the same river of knowledge... only difference is that my boat is a couple miles ahead of yours. if you're so curious as to how you came to exist just ask your parents what they were thinking before they had sex -- did your father nut inside your mother on purpose or was it an accident? a birth is usually a mistake or accident... according to recent studies. some deity did not tell your parents to have sexual intercourse and bare a child. never was there any other party involved...

... yet there is no reasoning with close-minded people. I came to realize that years ago.


im not close minded. you are more close minded than most ppl i have met. you just assume your boat is further up the river. it is not. you have no proof other than your theories. thhere are not enough or even close to enough fossil records to prove anything.

and yes, i was a planned birth. it took 4 months for my old man to shoot a good nut. :goodjob:

[geoff]

yojimbo. your birth did happen cuz of your parents but God gave us all the ability to procreate. we as humans can only create life its God that breaths your soul into you. without it you would be a mere animal...a monkey! darwin had something right

[Buttons]

How the fuck do you know that God gave you the ability to procreate and it wasn't just evolution? Evolution can prove this. How do you know God breathed your soul into you? And it wasn't just the fact you grew lungs (aka evolution, by evolving in your mom's tummy)? Monkey and People evolved differently. There is proof we came from primates. What proof do you have that God did all this?

I'm just asking since you keep basing your argument on this. No reason to down your religion, because that's your choice.

[btstone]

show the proof. dont give me theory, just FACTUAL evidence. i dont wanna see a study to that doesnt prove anything, FACTUAL evidence.

i am not saying i have factual evidence of God, but that is sorta the point. how can a Supreme being be proven.,....you guys are claiming evolution is fact. Prove it

[geoff]

How the fuck do you know that God gave you the ability to procreate and it wasn't just evolution? Evolution can prove this. How do you know God breathed your soul into you? And it wasn't just the fact you grew lungs (aka evolution, by evolving in your mom's tummy)? Monkey and People evolved differently. There is proof we came from primates. What proof do you have that God did all this? I'm just asking since you keep basing your argument on this. No reason to down your religion, because that's your choice.

the bible tells us he gave us the power to procreate. and how does evolution give us the ability to have children? and a soul and lungs are different. we didnt evolve lungs. humans need oxygen to breath and live. we were created with the ability to breath, so were animals, and plants. we didnt start out with nothing and all of a sudden a bacteria decided hey i might just need a way to breath air if i want to evolve. and there is no "proof" we came from monkeys. i would love to see it if you have it. and if we did then why is there no missing link between apes and humans and why are apes not evolving into humans anymore. did natural selection just decide to stop for some unknown reason? why is it that among the hundreds of millions of species on earth we as humans have the most sifisticated brain, skeletal system, organ system, nervous system, ect...plus a conscience, morals, rational thinking, logic, ect...why is it that no other species has any of these. are you seriously telling me that 1/100000000000000000 chance of this happening makes more sense to you than an omnipotent all powerful creator? i know God did all this because you cant have all this around us come from molecules that evolved into bacteria that evolved into grass, trees, water, people, animals, ect. because what did those molecules and elements evolve from? nothing? there is the problem...NOTHING CAN NOT MAKE EVERYTHING BECAUSE IT HAS NO POTENTIAL TO MAKE ANYTHING AT ALL!!!! so that means what? that a CONSCIENCE decision making capable all present timeless and never changing force had to make it...e.g. GOD! if i am wrong in any of my statements please prove me wrong. i am looking for your "scientific evidence" to back up my claims as i write this. God bless

[Buttons]

What's the point? I could have 99.9% of the doctors in the world with 5000+ page papers on how what i am saying is correct and you people will still tell me i'm wrong and that it is not proof.

How about you give me REAL proof instead of "the bible this" and "i believe"... let's see y'all's case about this shit.

[btstone]

What's the point? I could have 99.9% of the doctors in the world with 5000+ page papers on how what i am saying is correct and you people will still tell me i'm wrong and that it is not proof.

How about you give me REAL proof instead of "the bible this" and "i believe"... let's see y'all's case about this shit.

so you are admitting there is no proof?

[Buttons]

so you are admitting there is no proof?

there is proof, but i don't feel like searching google for many different sites just for the people to say that their belief is right and i'm wrong.

i'm just saying why don't y'all give me proof that y'all are right? i've yet to see CREDIBLE proof.

[geoff]

evolution is base all on assumption, hypothesis, and theory, all of which are NOT facts. in order for the THEORY of evolution to work the universe started out with hydrogen molecules and perhaps a few helium atoms(how did these get here? :thinking: ) in 1960 George Kerkut did a study and wrote a book entitled "the implications of evolution". in it he said the first two assumptions of evolution were: 1-spontanius generation must have occured. 2-spontanius generation must have occured only once. (spontanius generation: the idea that something non-living can produce something living. the entire basis of evolution) not once in the history of evolution no matter how many experiments were conducted could this be done. all attempts failed misserably. therefore evolutionist "assume" that it happened. so there goes assumption 1. assumption 2...evolution cannot happen without spontaneous generation only happening once because all life is composed of a singular genetic code that has only minor variations between all life and because the code is so extremely complicated evolutionists are forced to concede that it could only happen once. so this is called a "one time event". which cannot be studied using the scientific method because science uses the 5 senses to study things that are universal, dependable, and reproductible. but one time events are neither dependable nor universal and by definition cant be reproduced. and so this once time event of spontaneous generation are not capable of expiramental verification.

[sport_122]

How the fuck do you know that God gave you the ability to procreate and it wasn't just evolution? Evolution can prove this. How do you know God breathed your soul into you? And it wasn't just the fact you grew lungs (aka evolution, by evolving in your mom's tummy)? Monkey and People evolved differently. There is proof we came from primates. What proof do you have that God did all this?

I'm just asking since you keep basing your argument on this. No reason to down your religion, because that's your choice.


sorry, the broken fossil record does not provide proof of evolution. It ads validity to the theory, but it is not proof. The fossil record is severely fractured.
Also, why would anyone ask for proof anyway. You already presuppose that there is not God. Any evidence or proof or reasoning that you are given is going to be twisted to support your presupposition. Even if angels came to you and confirmed it, you would still assume a hoax, or some sort of delusion. Evidence is only worth giving to people who are open to adaptive interpretation. It doesn't mean they will believe anything, but they should be able to say "okay, that is a reasonable conclusion" you don't seem to have that in mind.

Also, you are asking for something that is scientifically impossible to do without pointing out things that you would dismiss as evolutionary. for instance, human logic and universal law. As many evolutionists would argue, it is a part of the evolutionary chain of development. This is foolish for two reasons (there are more, but i don't want to type too much).
1. We see a universal logic demonstrated in ALL processes of our universe. Some people call these laws also. But I am talking about Your ability to predict something that will happen based off of observation (this comes from the understanding that our very universe functions with rules). When you look into space you can assume that the principles of gravity are active. This is using our understanding that our universe functions under some sort of greater guideline which keeps it acting in a manner of which we can interpret and understand. We can apply these principles to physics as well and thus we can apply them to the Big Bang Theory. If there is NO universal law governing our universe, we can put no faith or logical belief into our sciences because those things of which we are observing would be products of chaos. And our LOGIC would have nothing to be based on which means scientific observations would rarely be repeated.

2. The very existence of the human logic is only validated in a transcendent being world view. That being cannot be subject to time and cannot have been created. IF so then the logic came from its creator. But my point is just like the moral law, you cannot pinpoint the origin of the human logic. Has our understanding developed...yes, but the existence of our ability to use logic and reason is the same as always. We have only been afforded a greater revelation of our existence which gives us more tools to use when deciphering things with our logic. Logically, we had to have logic before we could begin to develop understanding of anything. So without logical processes we would not have been functioning in the evolutionary spectrum.

I say this to say that when you ask for proof of God, you don't realize how erratic of a question that is. Its like asking your parents to prove that they are your parents. and going "well mom, you could have faked these pictures, you could have faked that birth certificate, you could have a twin that I don't know about which determines the DNA similarities." The reason you are going to accept any of these reasons as valid is your appeal to use that tool which is afforded all men of all times, logic. As people function in our universe, somehow every single one of us has within us a form of logical reasoning, and an understanding of universal moral laws. Most of these things cannot be taught and are not taught. I could not teach you that you have logic, unless you already believe that you do. You would be unable to learn and understand the very process of teaching you of your logic if you had none. Early nomadic men, did not have to be taught that murdering, and stealing were wrong. They knew it instinctively because that knowledge is embedded in who we are. Evolution does not account for its origins. They can only be found in the world view of a transcendent author to our life. If they are determined to come from anywhere else then there is NO validity to them as then logic and moral understanding would only be a product of human chemical interaction, (emotion) and we all know that we are most illogical when we are most emotional.

These are two places where many scientists do not go, and rightly so. The point in scientific observation is to gain an understanding of our universe. anything beyond that theoretically is personal opinion and because the christian God would have to be transcendent then He already defaults to be beyond our meek interpretation and understanding of this world. Therefore you could only use those things which are beyond our understanding to understand things about him.

[Buttons]

so you say i have no proof of evolution, then I say you have no proof to God. You must be wrong. Your point is invalid.

[geoff]

a well known australian molecular biologist and evolutionist Dr. Michael Denton wrote a book in 1985 entitled "evolution: a theory in crisis" in the book he admits that no one has ever documented any evidence for the supposed evolutionary "chain of life" leading from one type of creature to another. He wrote, " the concept of the continuity of nature has existed in the mind of man, never in the facts of nature." (p.353) then 13 years later in 1998 he stated, " Whether one accepts or rejects the design hypothesis...there is no avoiding the conclusion that the world looks as if it had been tailored for life; it appears to have been designed. All reality appears to be a vast, coherent, teleological whole with life and mankind as its purpose and goal."

the new accepted theory now that evolution is fading out is " intelligent design". they say that everything was designed but they dont know by who. science is getting closer and closer every decade to proving God. as it sits now. there is no physical evidence of God because how do you prove a superior being that is timeless and infinite? its gonna come down to what the bible says:

"God has given him a name which is above every name – that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…" Philippians 2:9-11

"I watched as He opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" rev.6:12-17

God Bless :goodjob:

[sport_122]

evolution is base all on assumption, hypothesis, and theory, all of which are NOT facts. in order for the THEORY of evolution to work the universe started out with hydrogen molecules and perhaps a few helium atoms(how did these get here? :thinking: ) in 1960 George Kerkut did a study and wrote a book entitled "the implications of evolution". in it he said the first two assumptions of evolution were: 1-spontanius generation must have occured. 2-spontanius generation must have occured only once. (spontanius generation: the idea that something non-living can produce something living. the entire basis of evolution) not once in the history of evolution no matter how many experiments were conducted could this be done. all attempts failed misserably. therefore evolutionist "assume" that it happened. so there goes assumption 1. assumption 2...evolution cannot happen without spontaneous generation only happening once because all life is composed of a singular genetic code that has only minor variations between all life and because the code is so extremely complicated evolutionists are forced to concede that it could only happen once. so this is called a "one time event". which cannot be studied using the scientific method because science uses the 5 senses to study things that are universal, dependable, and reproductible. but one time events are neither dependable nor universal and by definition cant be reproduced. and so this once time event of spontaneous generation are not capable of expiramental verification.

Abiogenesis is the theory that life could come from non life. It has not been done. They got as far as amino acids. But in context this is one of the ONLY specifics that is given in the Bible about creation. Mankind originated from the dust of the earth. Proving Abiogenesis will not change the discussion, it would only give those who deny certain things something else to have to deny.

Its easy to argue evolution because the bible doesn't speak about this. It is easy to make claims and suggestions against something when that something has nothing to say about it. But if they prove abiogenesis, then science would have bridged a gap between the scientific processes of our world and one of the first direct claims about God in the Bible. While the fossil record still remains broken. I for one have no problem with that as it adds further demonstration for scriptural validity.

But it will be interesting because many people in the church have their view of how things happened and its just not written. So we have to be able to remove our media based mindset on these things and replace them with an open mind because our culture has started to determine Biblical fact off of fictional script.

The bible does not say the world is 6,000 years old. It does not say that there was no evolution. So believers should not be trying to argue these things as if they harm God. They don't. If God used that process to develop us then more power to him. If you made jello, you really only mixed water and the gelatin powder, it is not jello until you put it in the fridge and come back later. But when someone says, who made the Jello, you take the credit because you put the process into motion.

[geoff]

i am not argueing evolution. i believe natural selection and what not. i just believe the bible is true when it says that God(superior being) spoke everything into existence. the way things happend now are in our own hands and thats where evolution or some form of it and natural selection come in.

[sport_122]

so you say i have no proof of evolution, then I say you have no proof to God. You must be wrong. Your point is invalid.

what...I do say you have no proof of evolution, but you are too close minded to understand this statement in its entirety. I believe in some of the evolutionary process (there are numerous versions) but its not because its all proven. its because its logical even with its broken fossil record. Its when evolutionists try to turn their thoughts into fundamental religion that they have a problem. Much like you are doing.

If I said "do you have a red car", and you said "yes" that doesn't mean that every car on the planet was red at one time, and that you can never have a blue car or that all black cars are slow, and all white cars are bad for the environment. It simply means...You have a red car. Stop trying to read religious principles into evolution. If it is to remain a pure theory you should not do this.

You are like arguing with an infant. You assume that because I believe one way about God and you believe the other, that we could not agree on evolution. And like a kid you close your mind to the arguments presented to you (as I knew you would) not because they are bad arguments but because you think i have to be wrong in order for you to be right. Your world view is not about science, its about atheism or agnosticism. That is where your arguments flow from and you prove it with your general nonsensical statements.

I presented very valid reasons for you as to why it is very logical to say that one believes in God and I can almost imagine you reading them going "how can I prove this wrong?". Its like the UFO theorists and the scientists who say...oh its all explained. There are thousands upon thousands of people, and many with very good credentials saying there is an actual extra terrestrial UFO phenomenon going on. Former astronauts, pilots, military and government officials, other major world governments, but some scientists say...I don't believe it until we have testable solution to prove it. Its fine to be skeptical, but skepticism can make some people look outright ridiculous. I sure hope you don't continue down that path.:(

[btstone]

there is proof, but i don't feel like searching google for many different sites just for the people to say that their belief is right and i'm wrong.

i'm just saying why don't y'all give me proof that y'all are right? i've yet to see CREDIBLE proof.

you getting frustrated in your post is proof enough you cant prove evolution. i just told you that i can not prove a Supreme being, he is everywhere you look. if your mind doesnt understand that then its cool. im not trying to say you are wrong, but i would like you to show yourself the holes in your "evolution". the more research you do on it, the more it becomes impossible to believe it

[Buttons]

what...I do say you have no proof of evolution, but you are too close minded to understand this statement in its entirety.

i'm not close minded. i'm just saying that just quoting things from the bibles is not proof. anybody can put a book together. He had a following so many people believed what he said. Same things happen in cults. I'm not saying Christianity is a cult, but it is easy to get people to believe what you say.

you can believe what you want, i honestly don't care. i'm glad you have something to believe in, but in my opinion, i just didn't like it. I tried to understand and like it, but it just wasn't for me. Not one religion is going to be right for everyone.

i'm sorry, but quoting from the bible is just not that credible of a source in my opinion. that's like saying anything I write in my journal is credible. no offense to anyone, but that's just how I see it.

I can come up with proof and show you links, but I don't want to waste my time.

this is just my honest opinion. take it how you want, but it's whatever. no need to bash at me for not believe what you believe in.

[Buttons]

you getting frustrated in your post is proof enough you cant prove evolution. i just told you that i can not prove a Supreme being, he is everywhere you look. if your mind doesnt understand that then its cool. im not trying to say you are wrong, but i would like you to show yourself the holes in your "evolution". the more research you do on it, the more it becomes impossible to believe it

LOL, i can prove, but rather not waste my time. I'm still waiting for your proof for God. I believe there might be a superior being(s), but does that necessarily make him God? No.

The more I read the bible and the things you people say, makes Christianity more unbelievable to me. That's how I see it.

[sport_122]

i'm not close minded. i'm just saying that just quoting things from the bibles is not proof. anybody can put a book together. He had a following so many people believed what he said. Same things happen in cults. I'm not saying Christianity is a cult, but it is easy to get people to believe what you say.

you can believe what you want, i honestly don't care. i'm glad you have something to believe in, but in my opinion, i just didn't like it. I tried to understand and like it, but it just wasn't for me. Not one religion is going to be right for everyone.

i'm sorry, but quoting from the bible is just not that credible of a source in my opinion. that's like saying anything I write in my journal is credible. no offense to anyone, but that's just how I see it.

I can come up with proof and show you links, but I don't want to waste my time.

this is just my honest opinion. take it how you want, but it's whatever. no need to bash at me for not believe what you believe in.

I didn't quote the Bible.

and I would agree...the convenience for the skeptic is that in formation of logical discussion you are not supposed to use anything which is a part of that which is to be proved to prove the existence of it. Because anything that flows from a source is "not neutral" and will prove that source. Like the Bible as God's breathed word therefore it can not be used to prove him because it presupposes that he is real.

So for a person who is a skeptic NOTHING is suitable evidence, because (at least for the judao-christian) ALL things are created by God and speak to his existence. So why don't you give us all example of suitable evidence?

[Buttons]

I didn't quote the Bible.

and I would agree...the convenience for the skeptic is that in formation of logical discussion you are not supposed to use anything which is a part of that which is to be proved to prove the existence of it. Because anything that flows from a source is "not neutral" and will prove that source. Like the Bible as God's breathed word therefore it can not be used to prove him because it presupposes that he is real.

So for a person who is a skeptic NOTHING is suitable evidence, because (at least for the judao-christian) ALL things are created by God and speak to his existence. So why don't you give us all example of suitable evidence?

other people are.

i'm pretty skeptic, so that's why none of reading the bible makes any sense to me.

[sport_122]

other people are.

i'm pretty skeptic, so that's why none of reading the bible makes any sense to me.

IMO most people who have said that to me say it for one of three reasons...

1. They do not understand HOW to read the Bible and HOW it is put together.

2. They do not have a realistic (based on the Bible) view of God. They believe one thing about him and it is usually not what is written in the Bible. And even if you don't want to read it as a book of faith. You can still pick it up to read through it much like you would a piece of fiction and learn about it.

3. As i was leading into. The majority of people who read the Bible are compelled to make a decision on it. You don't have to read it with the idea of I have to prove or disprove this. Even if you pic it up and read it as fiction, it does not mean that you are forced to believe it. I have learned a ton about religion, science, sociology etc, and I don't believe it all. Understanding and knowledge of something does NOT denote belief or that you have a religious face.

Once you pull those misconceptions out, then you can start to look at what is written and then you can have a good foundation to make arguments based off of what is written. But it seems like you may have some serious misconceptions on what the Bible says and who and how God functions. Most people who don't believe in God are like this. But its no different than me deciding that everything about you can be determined off of what you have said here in this thread. That is completely wrong, and we know that, but so many people do that very thing when arguing the character and existence of God.

[btstone]

LOL, i can prove, but rather not waste my time. I'm still waiting for your proof for God. I believe there might be a superior being(s), but does that necessarily make him God? No.

The more I read the bible and the things you people say, makes Christianity more unbelievable to me. That's how I see it.

you can not prove it autum. you know me better than that. i would not say some dumb stuff that makes no sense. look in the mirror. tell me that came from a primate. if you honestly believe that. i will stop with htis post

[Buttons]

i've read the bible and understood it. not all of it, but i've been to church. i've been to sunday classes. i still read a lot. i just didn't like the religion. that's all. i'm still searching for what i want to believe in. it's just a personal choice.

[btstone]

i've read the bible and understood it. not all of it, but i've been to church. i've been to sunday classes. i still read a lot. i just didn't like the religion. that's all. i'm still searching for what i want to believe in. it's just a personal choice.


you didnt answer my question. im not hear to tell you about church. i havent been to church in a long time. a building (church) does not define a religion. The "church" is the people and views that make up the religion

[Buttons]

you didnt answer my question. im not hear to tell you about church. i havent been to church in a long time. a building (church) does not define a religion. The "church" is the people and views that make up the religion

i was just pointing out church, meaning i've read the bible (most of it) and understood it.

[geoff]

reading the bible alone doesnt mean anything. its not a search for God. to search for God takes prayer aswell. and i didnt only quote the bible. i also used athiestic writings and research done by credible scientific evolutionists. everyone makes their own path buttons. some people take longer than others. you say you believe in a higher superior being? well why cant that being be God? im happy you have read the bible and understood most of it cuz i read and understand less than half. but its a constant thing...the more i read and pray the more i understand. you can believe we came from ants pissing on frogs...it doesnt matter. there are alot of theories and hypothesis out there in the world and there that constantly change. that doesnt mean they are all right. there is one absolute truth to everything what you believe that is, is up to you. i know that my God is the same past present and future and has shown me He is real. i hope one day with your reading and what not that you come to your own absolute truth. God bless

[zimabog]

We are not special.

http://mightyohm.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/pbd_sm.jpg
http://www.infoimagination.org/ps/mars/images_mars/pbd.jpg

[geoff]

? what is that supposed to be?

[zimabog]

? what is that supposed to be?

Our planet taken on the edge of the solar system. In the original photo the planet was only .12 of a pixel. Considering our entire solar system is a similar sized dot in a photo of our galaxy. One could see smallness and insignificance of Earth in reference to everything else. You as an individual are the size of an atom in that photo. You are less than a dot in comparison everything else. Do you really think that if you pray a god will hear your voice? Do you think that every birth is a gift from a god and that a god made you in your precise form? Do you think a god will actually cause a plane to have a safe crash landing? There are celestial bodies out there that are so huge it would take a hundred years or more traveling at the speed of light just to cross it. And these celestial bodies may not even have intelligent life in them. Why would a god create something so massive and awesome in spectacle and then create something so insignificant such as Earth and call it it's super special creation, so special I'll send down a son to die for them?

In the scope of everything, you are nothing.

You are not special.

So its ridiculous to claim that a god, if such a thing exists, created you specifically in your homo sapien form to inhabit the specifically super specially created Earth and that it wants you to praise it. And that if you pray really hard (got to bow your head and clasp your hands or it wont work correctly!) that it just might do a miracle, such as angling a crashing aircraft a few degrees (compared to a 3,000 light year wide celestial object) so it can not break up on impact.

The notion that a god looks upon this planet is ridiculous.

[geoff]

how is it ridiculous? the bible says God created the stars above to testify to His awesome power. the size of something does not signify its importance...an oxygen molecule is naked to the human eye yet we cannot survive without it. i know my God hears me because i am His child and He is my Father. and your above statements are oppinion.

[zimabog]

We are probably someone else's stars. And they look at their sky, which our star or galaxy is just a faint twinkle.

geoff:
Do you believe that there is other intelligent life out there?
Do you think that they think that our solar system is just a "testament of power"?


Do you think our planet has oxygen because there was a plan to put oxygen breathing animals on it or is it that there are oxygen breathing animals because there is oxygen on it?

If an "intelligent designer" was so smart why don't we breathe nitrogen? the atmosphere is 80% nitrogen.

[geoff]

i dont know if there is any other intelligent life out there. the bible doesnt say anything about it so yes there very well could be. i think our planet has oxygen cuz thats how God made it. i dont know why we breath oxygen instead of nitrogen. maybe we would of had a different make up in that case. not sure. are you telling me that its impossible for a superior being ( God ) to have created us and everything and done so else where and just not put it in the bible so we could concentrate on Him instead of trying to find other life? is the possibility of God really more farfetched than the universe, plants, humans to have just spontaneously come out of no where for no reason and " evolved" to what we are today?

[yojimbo]

like i said before...
although evolution can't be psychically seen there is a strong argument about what it is and the study of it. we humans can't even observe a caterpillar mutate, evolve, or whatever you want to call it into a butterfly, but we know that they are the same.


saying that there is NO PROOF of evolution is pretty... well... retarded.
just look at these fossil records.


http://i29.tinypic.com/34t303p.jpg


pretty interesting, yes? I have looked into many different types of research on this topic and read many different scientists' theories. before i continue let me finish smoking this bowl before I try to wrap my mind around this whole topic lol.


.... okay... to all the Christians out there -- take a look at this video. Brain Washing ( Jesus Camp ''Highlights'' ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac)
now, the funny thing is that modern Christianity and its teachings are entirely incongruous with what the bible actually says, or what christ taught.
you cannot justify the fucking wacky bullshit people do like at the jesus camp by using the bible.

They either misinterpret the bible or ignore it entirely.

watching that video just makes me feel gross inside. if hypothetically there was a devil... he's involved in that shit. Those children look like they're possessed, they just have a crazy look in their eyes.
the fat preacher bitch just looks scary too. It reminds me of when i went to a youth group with a bitch I wanted to bang and everyone waved their hands in the air, and one kid got on the mic and spoke in tongues.

I wanted to get the fuck out of there immediately cause I felt like there was some evil shit going on.
there are tons of animals to point out a sign of evolution or adaptation --- one that i enjoy suggesting are dog breeds.... (from chihuahua to bull mastiff) that is an easy way to "see" evolution in action.

[yojimbo]

im not close minded. you are more close minded than most ppl i have met. you just assume your boat is further up the river. it is not. you have no proof other than your theories. thhere are not enough or even close to enough fossil records to prove anything.

and yes, i was a planned birth. it took 4 months for my old man to shoot a good nut. :goodjob:

no i am not close minded... I have gone to church to observe and do research.

i'm opened to what they say --- i just don't believe in it.
though they give good advice in how to maintain a normal, evil-free life they fill believers' minds with a false hope in one day reaching a place where one feels no pain or sorrow.

this is just what i think... like i said, i've come to realize that you can't sway people's opinions so i just do this for fun now.
people shouldn't take a subject like this so seriously.

[btstone]

no i am not close minded... I have gone to church to observe and do research.

i'm opened to what they say --- i just don't believe in it.
though they give good advice in how to maintain a normal, evil-free life they fill believers' minds with a false hope in one day reaching a place where one feels no pain or sorrow.

this is just what i think... like i said, i've come to realize that you can't sway people's opinions so i just do this for fun now.
people shouldn't take a subject like this so seriously.

if your were so open minded you would not just take some reacher's word and look for truth in the religion yourself, im sure you will find it easier to believe then a gap filled evolution THEORY

[sport_122]

no i am not close minded... I have gone to church to observe and do research.

i'm opened to what they say --- i just don't believe in it.
though they give good advice in how to maintain a normal, evil-free life they fill believers' minds with a false hope in one day reaching a place where one feels no pain or sorrow.

this is just what i think... like i said, i've come to realize that you can't sway people's opinions so i just do this for fun now.
people shouldn't take a subject like this so seriously.

...I don't buy it. You say that you wen to church to observe and do research...The Bible cannot be thoroughly researched in two days a week listening to a few people give 15-20 minute discussions. You need to get something that will tell you about the Jewish culture and the roman culture. You need to know how to get the Hebrew and greek in order to properly translate the words on the pages. You would have to become a student of history, philosophy, anthropology and sociology to be able to grasp what the real meanings are on the page.

If you are calling church activity "study" then there is no reason why you have a hard time with it. BTW, no church I have ever been to has said that I could maintain and evil free life. That is contrary to the very Gospel that establishes the Christian church under Christ.

I will suggest two things to you that may spur some interest in the hopes that one day you will think that this is pretty important to our existence you know where to go to get a good idea.

First. Read :Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, to find out what Christians believe at the core of their faith. basically it has nothing to do with denominations and its a pretty easy two or three day read.

Second. try to find a debate called "Has science killed God?" It is John Lennox and Richard Dawkins talking about science and God and the human existence. Basically John Lennox puts Richard Dawkins in the hot seat and uses logic to show where his POV on Darwinian Evolution superseding everything is less logical than that of a creator and a personal God. You can get the discussion here for free in MP3 audio. I have the DVD and its worth it because you get to see their body language especially Dawkins who gets stumped several times during the debate.

http://apologetics315.blogspot.com/2009/06/richard-dawkins-and-john-lennox-has.html

I hope you check it out.

[Ocelot]

what church do you go to that only lasts 15-20 minutes? I have been and have seen people go to church and disappear for hours at a time. seriously though, all this talk of how God made this and that... meh. God must be larger than the sun, or even the Galaxy to have "created" them. Or do you believe that God is "invisible"?

[sport_122]

what church do you go to that only lasts 15-20 minutes? I have been and have seen people go to church and disappear for hours at a time. seriously though, all this talk of how God made this and that... meh. God must be larger than the sun, or even the Galaxy to have "created" them. Or do you believe that God is "invisible"?

During a church service that lasts about 1.5ish hours you have about 35 minutes of singing, 10 of prayer, 15 of communion, 10 of Tithing. That leaves about 20 minutes give or take a few to actually have teaching. My church starts at 10:30 and we are usually out by 12:15.

And my comments to him were specifically related to "the studying of the Bible". You are not going through the Bible for an entire church service. Some people may spend extra time on sunday morning in a sunday school class where you may add on another 30 -45 minutes, but we don't.

I believe in a transcendent God, who is beyond our ability to fully understand as he can exists inside and outside of our understanding. I do not believe he has to be physically big to have created the Universe. Thats an extremely elementary way of thinking.

[btstone]

what church do you go to that only lasts 15-20 minutes? I have been and have seen people go to church and disappear for hours at a time. seriously though, all this talk of how God made this and that... meh. God must be larger than the sun, or even the Galaxy to have "created" them. Or do you believe that God is "invisible"?

how big was the person that created sky scrapers, the aiplanes, or the any large object. prob regular size like me and you

[greasemunkey]

as of now 47 people are going to hell...go to a good church people, its not all about what you think. I want to see tuners in heaven! not just the mustang boys

[BABY J]

There is no hell.

[Ocelot]

1.5 hours still seems very short.

also, yes, man created sky scrapers, but man created them with teams, groups, and tools. God created everything solo, with no tools. so he is either very large and powerful, or... the universe just is, Shi* happens is a great motto for it. meh

[btstone]

God created everything solo, with no tools.

your 100% certain about this?

[_Christian_]

Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change His future mind?

[Incontt]

lol..god....babykiller.....real great guy. he hates those amputees too,

http://godisimaginary.com/

[Buttons]

LOL, some of these responses have me rolling on the ground.

[yojimbo]

You would have to become a student of history, philosophy, anthropology and sociology to be able to grasp what the real meanings are on the page.

To grasp the real meaning?? cmon, guy...
from what i have gathered the bible contains nothing more than morals and guidance to a 'better' way of life.


http://i30.tinypic.com/24cyxc7.jpg


with messages like this it's kinda hard to take it serious... so are jesus' followers the only ones to get saved from evil? seems kinda selfish and immature of him. what kind of god leaves his children all alone in the back ally to die alone and suffer in a world of crime, murder, rape, ect ect...

I'll tell you... an asshole-god or a god who enjoys seeing human-kind suffer.
either way it's hard to really imagine a being of such greatness. his 'image' requires the admiration of others in order to keep existing because without faith and a believe in christ eventually the thoughts of memories will vanish... same with everything else ---


but people aren't dumb... the know that they have to keep updating and increasing their church sizes in order to bring in the crowd - which is working, but not as good as they expected. many people -- atheists, agnostics, and people who just don't give a damn are now coming out and expressing how they feel about the subject.
they are no longer keeping their mouths shut -- because i'm sure you know... that well, people like me(who doesn't believe in the lord jesus christ) aren't really accepted in society - atleast here in the united states.

kinda fucked up but this country is pretty big into religion...



If you are calling church activity "study" then there is no reason why you have a hard time with it. BTW, no church I have ever been to has said that I could maintain and evil free life. That is contrary to the very Gospel that establishes the Christian church under Christ.


so you spend time going to church that promises things and purifies you but you can never live an evil free life??!!! really?! never ever?!!
damn... seems like a huge waste of time to me then lol
oh, and i don't have a hard time with it -- it's just mind-boggling to me... i mean the stories and all the gibberish talk.



I will suggest two things to you that may spur some interest in the hopes that one day you will think that this is pretty important to our existence you know where to go to get a good idea.

First. Read :Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, to find out what Christians believe at the core of their faith. basically it has nothing to do with denominations and its a pretty easy two or three day read.

Second. try to find a debate called "Has science killed God?" It is John Lennox and Richard Dawkins talking about science and God and the human existence. Basically John Lennox puts Richard Dawkins in the hot seat and uses logic to show where his POV on Darwinian Evolution superseding everything is less logical than that of a creator and a personal God. You can get the discussion here for free in MP3 audio. I have the DVD and its worth it because you get to see their body language especially Dawkins who gets stumped several times during the debate.

http://apologetics315.blogspot.com/2009/06/richard-dawkins-and-john-lennox-has.html

I hope you check it out.


sorry, sport, but I have had a few near-death experiences the recent one being last wednesday, july 8th, and i still don't believe -- what makes you think reading up on an argument that lennox and dawkins had will change my mind? I am lucky and thankful that i am alive.

if some higer being was the reason that i am still here then i thank it, but I know that a lot of factors is the reason that i am still living.
funny that after that day i looked at things totally different. why was i lucky when i'm sure someone else that same exact day died. doesn't seem logical to think that God's choosing who lives and who dies. that's waaaayyy too much responsibility FOR ONE BEING TO HANDLE.




if your were so open minded you would not just take some reacher's word and look for truth in the religion yourself, im sure you will find it easier to believe then a gap filled evolution THEORY


... haha i think i'll stick beside the evolution theory instead of putting my life in an imaginary being's hand.

[yojimbo]

why hasn't anyone attacked post #223?

[BABY J]

^^ Man -- you're like ME, but you're you. Kinda like a mini-me. LOL. Good stuff.

[AnthonyF]

Evolution should not be looked at as a belief. It is a scientific theory that gives a suggestion as to HOW. Faith in the existence of a transcendent God (all powerful, and not fully known or understood) does not necessarily give a HOW.

For instance: you believe that birds exist, but it doesn't tell you how they fly. Or you believe that cars are real but that doesn't tell you how they work or what they do.

I agree with Geoff and as a believer I do not doubt evolution in most cases (there are several different versions of evolution) I think there are HUGE holes in the theory, but I believe there are some valid points. But until a complete fossil record is found then nobody can even say that evolution is 100%, we can just say there is evidence.

Also, my world view does not lead me to believe we have a free will. I believe we have the ability to make choices, but not a free will. For instance, in a multiple choice question, you have the option to select A, B, C, or D. You cannot select F unless it is given as a possible answer. So even in your ability to make choices, your options are limited as well. And what gets even crazier is that choices made apart from us dictate how we will establish our choices. Pointing back to some causal event that began the process of responses and decisions which will echo and place us where we are to be. But i digress free will cannot logically exist in the finite and only in the infinite can 1 free will logically exists. I believe that 1 will governs and establishes all universal laws which is why our universe is seen as consistent and predictable when we observe it.

Did you seriously type ALL that to my PERSONAL opinion about MY beliefs? Get a fucking life loser. I don't care what YOU believe. I did not type anything to get involved into a religion debate. I stated what I feel like is going to happen.

-Ant.

[Ocelot]

your 100% certain about this?

i have never heard otherwise, still if there was tool use why are there no tools remaining, no trace of a being working?

[btstone]

... haha i think i'll stick beside the evolution theory instead of putting my life in an imaginary being's hand.

i would rather think someone created me then follow a evolution theory filled with gaps and mokeys that throw pieces of thier own shit at each other.

but maybe i feel as though im better than that...:goodjob:

[BABY J]

Fuck post 223 --- post 219 > *

/thread.

LOL

[btstone]

i have never heard otherwise, still if there was tool use why are there no tools remaining, no trace of a being working?

well, you are looking for tools God used, why not look for God himself. :thinking:

[Incontt]

you need to be out killing aldulterers like the bible says. Dont forget the people who work on Sundays...gotta be killed as well. Dont forget the homos and the teenagers that dont obey their parents...gotta die too. You christians are some nice peeps.

[yojimbo]

i would rather think someone created me then follow a evolution theory filled with gaps and mokeys that throw pieces of thier own shit at each other.

but maybe i feel as though im better than that...:goodjob:


how did God create you?
he snap his fingers? did he shit you out? please explain...



you need to be out killing aldulterers like the bible says. Dont forget the people who work on Sundays...gotta be killed as well. Dont forget the homos and the teenagers that dont obey their parents...gotta die too. You christians are some nice peeps.

LOL brb i gotta go stone some homosexuals to death...

[yojimbo]

Fuck post 223 --- post 219 > *

/thread.

LOL


I know huh?



Our planet taken on the edge of the solar system. In the original photo the planet was only .12 of a pixel. Considering our entire solar system is a similar sized dot in a photo of our galaxy. One could see smallness and insignificance of Earth in reference to everything else. You as an individual are the size of an atom in that photo. You are less than a dot in comparison everything else. Do you really think that if you pray a god will hear your voice? Do you think that every birth is a gift from a god and that a god made you in your precise form? Do you think a god will actually cause a plane to have a safe crash landing? There are celestial bodies out there that are so huge it would take a hundred years or more traveling at the speed of light just to cross it. And these celestial bodies may not even have intelligent life in them. Why would a god create something so massive and awesome in spectacle and then create something so insignificant such as Earth and call it it's super special creation, so special I'll send down a son to die for them?

In the scope of everything, you are nothing.

You are not special.

So its ridiculous to claim that a god, if such a thing exists, created you specifically in your homo sapien form to inhabit the specifically super specially created Earth and that it wants you to praise it. And that if you pray really hard (got to bow your head and clasp your hands or it wont work correctly!) that it just might do a miracle, such as angling a crashing aircraft a few degrees (compared to a 3,000 light year wide celestial object) so it can not break up on impact.

The notion that a god looks upon this planet is ridiculous.

post # 219

--- case closed.

[btstone]

how did God create you?
he snap his fingers? did he shit you out? please explain...


He spoke me into existence. when you get finished throwing shit at the other monkeys you should sit down and ask.

incontt---whats with all the stereotypes. we dont call you a Fag because you drive a T/A.

[Incontt]

you dont call me a fag because the bible tells you to kill fags and know you arent man enuff to do it.

What stereotypes? Its in the bible.....gods book. I am waiting for the devils book.....I think it will be better with a bonus dvd

[btstone]

you dont call me a fag because the bible tells you to kill fags and know you arent man enuff to do it.


i almost fell out of my chair laughing. man enough. HA. im still laughing.