Does a Good God exclude the possibility of a Bad World?

[bookthief]

It seems to me that people use this bad world as an excuse to disbelieve in a good God, but does a bad world necessitate the absence of a good God?

I don't think it's reasonable

[sport_122]

It seems to me that people use this bad world as an excuse to disbelieve in a good God, but does a bad world necessitate the absence of a good God?

I don't think it's reasonable

You are right it is not reasonable.

I will PM you an interesting debate that relates to this.

[RL...]

It seems to me that people use this bad world as an excuse to disbelieve in a good God, but does a bad world necessitate the absence of a good God?

I don't think it's reasonable

Somethings that are reasonable to you aren't to others, and vice versa. So....your point is.....:blah:

Have you thought about the fact(assuming there is a GOD) that god in all his/her/its glory/intelligence/experiance is so advanced a being that he/she/it transcends the human values we hold as being good and bad completely?

What I mean is that if there is such a being as GOD, don't you think he would have a completely different thought pattern and perspective than us, one so advanced that we wouldn't even be able to comprehend it at all. Just as how our thoughts and mental processes are dependant upon certain variables, I would think an all powerful being who has been around literally forever would be laughing at our pathetic attempts to rationalize his/her/its goals and thoughts.

The fact is that human beings are extremely illogical, unrational, weak, and undeveloped. I think we are at just the beginning of our history and have a long way to go to being advanced life forms.

[sport_122]

Somethings that are reasonable to you aren't to others, and vice versa. So....your point is.....:blah:

Have you thought about the fact(assuming there is a GOD) that god in all his/her/its glory/intelligence/experiance is so advanced a being that he/she/it transcends the human values we hold as being good and bad completely?

What I mean is that if there is such a being as GOD, don't you think he would have a completely different thought pattern and perspective than us, one so advanced that we wouldn't even be able to comprehend it at all. Just as how our thoughts and mental processes are dependant upon certain variables, I would think an all powerful being who has been around literally forever would be laughing at our pathetic attempts to rationalize his/her/its goals and thoughts.

The fact is that human beings are extremely illogical, unrational, weak, and undeveloped. I think we are at just the beginning of our history and have a long way to go to being advanced life forms.

First off, I judge reason based on the question that was asked as it would be answered by an individual who is not discussing it with anyone, but answering it based on their own thoughts. Anyone asking that specific question and coming to that conclusion is not answering the question after putting in thoughts on who God is and how God would have to be defined. This has nothing to do with any outside logic. For the INDIVIDUAL to come to this conclusion is irrational.

I sure have thought of these things and i believe that God is as you have described, almost, above all and infinite, but you have failed to answer this persons question. The question was could there be a good God and a bad world. The person who says their cannot has done exactly what you have stated. That person has assumed that a good God=a good world. That would mean for the person who believes in God, God can ONLY be good when the world is Good or the reflection of that statement.

why is this unreasonable?
The two characters (world and God) are not equivalents. This is true if you believe that God is anything other than the world. In fact I believe the opposite. I believe that good is defined by God, and because God defines good and the world is NOT equal to God, then world cannot be good unless God chooses to make it so. In other words, I believe that when there is belief in a good God, which chronologically has to come first, then you should also believe that the goodness of God is the thing that shows us that the world is bad, because the world cannot stand up to the definition of Gods goodness.

for the Christian believer:
Its like the 10 commandments. Men have never been able to keep them. The only one who has kept them was Jesus Christ, and the reason he was able to keep them was his oneness with God. The 10 commandments (according to Hebrews) were put in place to show us our inability to live up to the standard that God has. This means that the world compared to God always falls short, which means that God=the definition of good=good God which proves a bad world.

Your reply assumes that I don't believe logic and knowledge of God is attainable. I do. With the existence of a God could that God not make himself known by presenting bits of his character to us over time. For instance, I believe that God has revealed that he is just, righteous, graceful, and good to say the least. I believe that the only reason we can even define these things is that God was these things first. Without an absolutely just God, justice is defined by an individual, without an absolutely good God, goodness will be defined by the individual. all of a sudden there is no ground for law because even the moral code is subjective. God gives us the ability to know him in order for us to live. This does not mean that we fully understand him, I don't believe we can, but the answer to the question that was asked is something that has been revealed.

[qwick]

Can there be a "good God" in a "bad world?"
Sure, if you believe in God of course there can. I personally dont believe in God, and find that those that do seem to "spin" situations to there liking.For example a "bad world" is Gods way of testing the faith of his followers and is punishment to those that dont believe. On the flip side if it is a "good world" its "thanks be to God" and is due to the good work his followers have done. To me it just seem that some (not all) belivers are quick to take the credit (for themselvs or God) when things are good and are even quicker to pass blame on "non-believers" when things are bad.

:2cents:

[Total_Blender]

There's no god, no world, no anything outside of what we perceive.

[sport_122]

I may be abnormal to you then. I believe that whether the world is good or bad, that I am to be thankful to God. I don't believe that God is trying to test us in bad times, but I believe He is continually making himself known to us all in those times.

I believe that in many of the problems in our societies that the church is to blame (that includes me) because we should have a different standard. I believe that because of our disobedience and lack of Love we have so poorly demonstrated what it means to be a believer to the point that it has almost lost its meaning. The church, by faith in scripture, is given the duty of loving and supporting the people in our communities. Our standard of service should be higher and that our responsibility is to God, our communities, and our families and then ourselves.

Most importantly I believe that God is constantly giving us grace.

Please don't judge believers by what they do. The very nature of being a christian is that we admit that we are completely faulty and that we will do wrong and we are not able to live up to God's standard without his redemption. There are many fake christians and any believer that cannot admit their faultiness and claim to be good are either not believers or they are very very confused on the gospel.

[bookthief]

Somethings that are reasonable to you aren't to others, and vice versa. So....your point is.....:blah:

Have you thought about the fact(assuming there is a GOD) that god in all his/her/its glory/intelligence/experiance is so advanced a being that he/she/it transcends the human values we hold as being good and bad completely?

What I mean is that if there is such a being as GOD, don't you think he would have a completely different thought pattern and perspective than us, one so advanced that we wouldn't even be able to comprehend it at all. Just as how our thoughts and mental processes are dependant upon certain variables, I would think an all powerful being who has been around literally forever would be laughing at our pathetic attempts to rationalize his/her/its goals and thoughts.

The fact is that human beings are extremely illogical, unrational, weak, and undeveloped. I think we are at just the beginning of our history and have a long way to go to being advanced life forms.

Yes that would definately be the reason, but does that nature of God necessitate that he change the world? What if his good nature was compromised in destroying all evil? perhaps there is a greater good to be achieved in allowing it to run its course.

Its just as though if you and I and everyone on this board lived in a perfect world and I was God(its not perfect because of that, but for arguments sake...) and you decided to rebel against my authority. You assembled the people of the board together and conspired against me, telling all sorts of lies about my nature. Would I then prove myself true and good by destroying you?

Perhaps evil needs to run its course to show the goodness of God's nature

[RL...]

All I know is that without the bad and evil, we wouldn't appreciate the good as much as we do. And there is so much to be appreciated in this world...

[man]

and find that those that do seem to "spin" situations to there liking.For example a "bad world" is Gods way of testing the faith of his followers and is punishment to those that dont believe.

Have you REALLY ever heard someone say anything like that or are you just using an age-old stereotype.

Never have I had anyone tell me God did certain things to test my faith, not once.

I'm no a believer either.

[sport_122]

All I know is that without the bad and evil, we wouldn't appreciate the good as much as we do. And there is so much to be appreciated in this world...

This way of thinking is very similar. The big difference is that some people will say that because God is good and creator of all things then he also created evil and sin so he is also evil and sin.

I think the way that we are shown good and evil is through law. Instead of creating evil, God created law (10 commandments and don't eat of the tree) and that law was good. The purpose of that good law was to show us how we could not live up to it. So the way that evil enters the picture is through something that it is an unavoidable part of something that was created and is good. With law you have to have justice, grace, truth, and certainty of punishment with all of these things. Without any of them a law is not a law because there is no punishment for breaking it, there is no grace to keep you in it, and there is no absolution to its eternal nature. People like to say that God is evil because he created sin. But they don't realize that sin(evil) goes hand in hand with law which is created as good. Unless there is some absolute law to be followed, unless there are some absolute rules, there is no wrong doing and no sin.

[Starrfire]

religion=failboat

[tinkolby_25]

religion=Epicfailboat

fixed.

[choiiiiiiiii]

interesting little story if you call it that that i ran across.

There’s this cartoon of two turtles. One turtle says, “Sometimes I’d like to ask God why he allows poverty, famine, and injustice when he could do something about it.” The other turtle replies: “I’m afraid God might ask me the same question.”

[4dmin]

I read this thread and I think, God created us, why would he make our minds to his level, of course he wouldnt. He knows what we think and he knows what we do, then you ask, then why did he even create human. We'll because everything he has in the heavens worships every command of his. He created humans to worship every command of his, but due to the devil(who use to be God's favorite angel)not bowing to Gods creation, he was banished from Heaven. HE told God that he was going to do everything he possibly could to keep the humans from following God. Since then the battle has begun of humans doing right and humans doing wrong. Be back later..

[Mercer]

It seems to me that people use this bad world as an excuse to disbelieve in a good God, but does a bad world necessitate the absence of a good God?

I don't think it's reasonable

Yeah no shit.
Only idiots think that's a good argument.

Plus who are we to impose good and evil on a thing we made up?
Let me ask you something. Why does anyone need an "excuse" to not believe in a/any God, good or bad? If God wanted you to believe in him, don't you think he'd do something cool like, make his presence known?
I'm sure God's idea of a good time is to hide himself as best he can, and see who will still believe in made up stories and then reward them after they die.

All the Evil in the world serves a purpose -- which is; that it at least implies that most of us have much more compassion than God does.

Plus, nobody wants to believe that there's a bad God out there...


'cept me.

[bookthief]

Yeah no shit.
Only idiots think that's a good argument.

Plus who are we to impose good and evil on a thing we made up?
Let me ask you something. Why does anyone need an "excuse" to not believe in a/any God, good or bad? If God wanted you to believe in him, don't you think he'd do something cool like, make his presence known?
I'm sure God's idea of a good time is to hide himself as best he can, and see who will still believe in made up stories and then reward them after they die.

All the Evil in the world serves a purpose -- which is; that it at least implies that most of us have much more compassion than God does.

Plus, nobody wants to believe that there's a bad God out there...


'cept me.


Bad/evil accentuates our appreciation of good, but it does not define it. To give it such weight is to suggest that it is as equally valid and necessary as good. That simply cannot be. As well, to argue thusly would also put an end to those arguments people wish to put forth as to the problem with God not eradicating evil from this world; if it's equally valid and necessary, why should He do so?

[RL...]

God has no direct influence on this planet or what happens on it, good or bad. God(or gods/whatever is out there) could be good, could be bad, I think it is neither. I think it just is.

I don't think he's a kid who created the world, created humans, told a human to write down his commandments, gave us free will, only to punish us if we don't live by the book. That sounds exactly like the thoughts of an irrational human being, not the thoughts of a an all powerful being.

[quickdodge®]

why would he make our minds to his level, of course he wouldnt.

See you always forget about me, Paul. He made one person up to par with him. Yours truly.

You know what QD really stands for, Paul? Quintessential Deity. Later, QD.

[sport_122]

God has no direct influence on this planet or what happens on it, good or bad. God(or gods/whatever is out there) could be good, could be bad, I think it is neither. I think it just is.

I don't think he's a kid who created the world, created humans, told a human to write down his commandments, gave us free will, only to punish us if we don't live by the book. That sounds exactly like the thoughts of an irrational human being, not the thoughts of a an all powerful being.

you do realize that this quote contradicts what you have said in your "in the name of religion thread"

The faith of people directly corresponds with what happens in the world. the fact that people believe in something more directly shapes what they will do with their lives which directly effects the world.

I don't believe in free will either. I think that is created by men in order to take credit for something that they had no say in. If will is truly free then there would be no limitations. You are limited to the choices you made by what you know and what your experiences are.

[RL...]

you do realize that this quote contradicts what you have said in your "in the name of religion thread"

The faith of people directly corresponds with what happens in the world. the fact that people believe in something more directly shapes what they will do with their lives which directly effects the world.

I don't believe in free will either. I think that is created by men in order to take credit for something that they had no say in. If will is truly free then there would be no limitations. You are limited to the choices you made by what you know and what your experiences are.

I haven't contradicted myself, if you think I did you misinterpreted my statements

Not necessarilly, but to some extent yes..


There is no way to prove or disprove free will. I could say that I'm free and unbound by fate and to prove it, I go shoot someone. But then one could argue that I was destined to shoot that person and that it was fate and that what happened happened, and couldn't have been different.

[sport_122]

We will have to disagree on the faith issue then. But i can't see it in another way. Faith itself is not always a religious faith. It can just simply be believing. Even you have demonstrated that you have faith (which I think proves the existence of God as well, but that is another conversation)

So, the way I look at it is that when talking about free will you have to look at the entire scope of choice, ordination, and rationale. The decision to go out and shoot someone would not be based on YOU choosing to do so without being grounded in everything about you. What you know, how you were raised, what you have been taught. It would be a decision based off of all of your emotions and all the things that are inside you that say "I AM going to shoot someone".

If your choices are limited to what you have experienced this disproves the concept of free will simply because there are limitations which remove the ability of freedom. If your will can be tamed by something then it was never free to begin with. I am defining free will as the ability to make choices apart from what has been revealed to you. So if you can only make choices based off of what you know, or experience, then you are limited in the choices that you can make and your will cannot be free. If our wills were free I wouldn't own a car because I would fly, but I am limited to the choices I can make because of what has been presented to me as our reality. This why I believe logic, rationale, and revelation are eternal and (I believe) from God.

So in closing, I guess I think that everything you do is subject to what has been revealed to you and what has been revealed to you is a cornucopia of history, personality, experience, and knowledge of the ages. That knowledge has its origins somewhere and echos through time to dictate what you can do. I also think that as soon as law (I can only speak of an eternal universal law) enters the picture the idea of freedom goes away because your parameters are now controlled as that law will echo into what becomes your experience.

[RL...]

We will have to disagree on the faith issue then. But i can't see it in another way. Faith itself is not always a religious faith. It can just simply be believing. Even you have demonstrated that you have faith (which I think proves the existence of God as well, but that is another conversation)

So, the way I look at it is that when talking about free will you have to look at the entire scope of choice, ordination, and rationale. The decision to go out and shoot someone would not be based on YOU choosing to do so without being grounded in everything about you. What you know, how you were raised, what you have been taught. It would be a decision based off of all of your emotions and all the things that are inside you that say "I AM going to shoot someone".

If your choices are limited to what you have experienced this disproves the concept of free will simply because there are limitations which remove the ability of freedom. If your will can be tamed by something then it was never free to begin with. I am defining free will as the ability to make choices apart from what has been revealed to you. So if you can only make choices based off of what you know, or experience, then you are limited in the choices that you can make and your will cannot be free. If our wills were free I wouldn't own a car because I would fly, but I am limited to the choices I can make because of what has been presented to me as our reality. This why I believe logic, rationale, and revelation are eternal and (I believe) from God.

So in closing, I guess I think that everything you do is subject to what has been revealed to you and what has been revealed to you is a cornucopia of history, personality, experience, and knowledge of the ages. That knowledge has its origins somewhere and echos through time to dictate what you can do. I also think that as soon as law (I can only speak of an eternal universal law) enters the picture the idea of freedom goes away because your parameters are now controlled as that law will echo into what becomes your experience.

yes faith isn't limited to religious faith, and I do have faith, in humans, to continue to grow, mature, and advance mentally, physically, spiritually, and technologically.

I do not feel that the choices one can make are limited to ones experience/upbringing, etc....of course the way a person was raised and his experience has a great deal with what kind of person he'll be, how he'll act, and the choices he'll make, all of us human have it in us to do things, unexpected, to go off on a tangent, and to make unusual choices. And nothing completely governs why we do the things we do, human are extremely illogical beings and we like to think the opposite.

Saying that "If our wills were free I wouldn't own a car because I would fly, but I am limited to the choices I can make because of what has been presented to me as our reality." is not true. Our wills are argueably free, but just because you don't want to own a car doesn't mean you should be able to fly, or ignore the laws of physics....No matter what our universe has rules, rules to which everything follows, and certain rules can be bent, but humans can't fly, atleast not yet....Our wills are free but this being the case doesn't mean we can do the impossible. Logic and rationale are relative. It all depends on who the person/thing is....and I don't understand what you mean by them being eternal?

The actions we perform are based on our experiences, culture, how we were raised, history, and etc....but we still have the choice to do whatever we want, but can obviously only do what the world and the laws of the universe let us do. There are such things as gravity, which you could say is a universal law/constant, and this is something that cannot be ignored simply because we want to. But if I want to go shoot someone, I can, or atleast try....

[Ran]

I read this thread and I think, God created us, why would he make our minds to his level, of course he wouldnt. He knows what we think and he knows what we do, then you ask, then why did he even create human. We'll because everything he has in the heavens worships every command of his. He created humans to worship every command of his, but due to the devil(who use to be God's favorite angel)not bowing to Gods creation, he was banished from Heaven. HE told God that he was going to do everything he possibly could to keep the humans from following God. Since then the battle has begun of humans doing right and humans doing wrong. Be back later..At least someone here was logical enough to post the religious standing here. Nice job.

Personally, I believe the world is what we make it. The world has decended into it's modernday sh*thole because humankind has allowed itself to degenerate into what you see. The emphasis on personal pleasure rather than commiting one's self to the greater benefit of mankind has led to the crumbling society that does nothing but bicker and take advantage of itself in anyway possible.

[RL...]

At least someone here was logical enough to post the religious standing here. Nice job.

Personally, I believe the world is what we make it. The world has decended into it's modernday sh*thole because humankind has allowed itself to degenerate into what you see. The emphasis on personal pleasure rather than commiting one's self to the greater benefit of mankind has led to the crumbling society that does nothing but bicker and take advantage of itself in anyway possible.

I agree :goodjob:

[sport_122]

I agree :goodjob:

Historically, that is exactly what happens in communities where people with the personal lifestyle, do what you feel is good mentality end up. It is also a very common part of the history of the agnostic view and they were known as Hedonists.

A self empowered world view leads to hedonism because all that is left is your personal pleasure. and since you believe that the reflection of self and what the individual chooses over what a community or society says, then how can you really agree with him?

[RL...]

Historically, that is exactly what happens in communities where people with the personal lifestyle, do what you feel is good mentality end up. It is also a very common part of the history of the agnostic view and they were known as Hedonists.

A self empowered world view leads to hedonism because all that is left is your personal pleasure. and since you believe that the reflection of self and what the individual chooses over what a community or society says, then how can you really agree with him?

Communities where ppl with the personal lifestyle? Every community has a personal lifestyle...:thinking:

I also believe in a god and that we shouldn't kill ppl and commit adultery, does that make me a christian, no.

Since I "believe that the reflection of self and what the individual chooses over what a community or society says"? This statement is grammatically fubared. When you make an arguement you must try to have proper syntax.

[sport_122]

yes faith isn't limited to religious faith, and I do have faith, in humans, to continue to grow, mature, and advance mentally, physically, spiritually, and technologically.

I do not feel that the choices one can make are limited to ones experience/upbringing, etc....of course the way a person was raised and his experience has a great deal with what kind of person he'll be, how he'll act, and the choices he'll make, all of us human have it in us to do things, unexpected, to go off on a tangent, and to make unusual choices. And nothing completely governs why we do the things we do, human are extremely illogical beings and we like to think the opposite.

Saying that "If our wills were free I wouldn't own a car because I would fly, but I am limited to the choices I can make because of what has been presented to me as our reality." is not true. Our wills are argueably free, but just because you don't want to own a car doesn't mean you should be able to fly, or ignore the laws of physics....No matter what our universe has rules, rules to which everything follows, and certain rules can be bent, but humans can't fly, atleast not yet....Our wills are free but this being the case doesn't mean we can do the impossible. Logic and rationale are relative. It all depends on who the person/thing is....and I don't understand what you mean by them being eternal?

The actions we perform are based on our experiences, culture, how we were raised, history, and etc....but we still have the choice to do whatever we want, but can obviously only do what the world and the laws of the universe let us do. There are such things as gravity, which you could say is a universal law/constant, and this is something that cannot be ignored simply because we want to. But if I want to go shoot someone, I can, or atleast try....

After seeing some of the retards on these threads, thanks for orchestrating a post that is about discussing and understanding. I wish everyone could follow your example, even when we don't agree.;)

We are different in that I do not believe in the existence of faith, without the existence of God. When I talk about things being grounded in an eternal, what I am trying to say is that there are certain things about life that, if they were subject to anything other than eternity, then they would not exists.

So lets take logic.
Logic by its definition is subjective, but its rooted in knowledge, experience and reason all of which I believe to be things that are given to men from God, by way of revelation (not the book, the verb). The way atoms work, the way gravity works, the way people determine the structure of their laws etc are all things that have not changed and mankind is still trying to learn to understand. Even with our studies and research, all we do is reveal that there are more questions than anything.

For instance, I think we have mentioned a moral code. Well, why does the moral code make us want to protect life? How do we explain that instinct? what is it about us that makes us think that life is valuable? Instinctively, people understand the concept of preservation of life, we never have to be taught that. The idea existed in men even before they came together to agree upon a societies moral code. So where does it come from? I believe it is one of those things that is eternal and exists in us somehow through God, which would show that he is involved in what we do.

I say knowledge is eternal because it has no beginnings with men. Yes for the individual you can learn something new everyday, but even before we existed there was the very way things worked, there was a knowledge and a function to existence. The universe is going, and even though we don't understand it the very truth in how it works is always true. We may have thought the sun rotated around the earth, but the truth of the opposite, was always there and it was only until it was revealed to us that we understood it to be the opposite. But the knowledge of that truth is always there suspended somehow until we can truly grasp it. and what also makes it eternal to me, is the fact that we can NEVER grasp it. The more we find out the more questions increase exponentially. We still don't understand gravity. we know it exists and has something to do with mass and speed and rotation, but that is just the surface and we still have questions. We will always have questions because things will always be in the process of becoming known to men. I hope that makes more sense to you than my other posts.

On the discussion of choice. I need to clarify that I do believe people make choices, but I don't believe they are ever random. Even the person who makes the unusual choice or goes off on a tangent, they will only do so because of something they have been predisposed to or something that is in them. There is always a controlling factor, whether its rebellion, or mental, or emotional, people always have these factors in all they do. And all of these things are subjective the something else. If you looked up some stuff in criminology or in sociology you can find TONS of theories on this stuff, but the general principle is that people make choices because of what they have been exposed to. I would welcome an example of something that disagrees with this statement, I just know its consistent with suicides, homicide, drugs, crime, charity, careers, etc. etc etc.

The physical limitations are things that I mentioned in my previous post are to say that its NOT just a physical freedom, it has to be internal as well. And on all accounts there are factors that will limit what you know to be possibilities of what you can do, so you can't really be free if you can only be free to live within limits or walls of your understanding.



The actions we perform are based on our experiences, culture, how we were raised, history, and etc....but we still have the choice to do whatever we want, but can obviously only do what the world and the laws of the universe let us do. There are such things as gravity, which you could say is a universal law/constant, and this is something that cannot be ignored simply because we want to. But if I want to go shoot someone, I can, or atleast try....

this touches my point. I believe that this proves the existence of an eternal. Something that we cannot change that we cannot control. I believe that the entire universe is subject to the same things that we are. I feel that the very revelation of these things to us is the proof that we are indeed in relation with God, and that revelation and limitation of what we can do shows that God has a specific thing that he is doing in this world and every man women and child has a part in it. I believe the pain and the joy are a part of it. I think the poverty and the wealth are a part of it. I think so because our ability to choose is going to be determined by factors beyond our control. It sounds mean to some, but it is the character of God because the ONLY way people can know the ultimate joy of something is to experience it in its ultimate pain. Pain is how we know joy, and evil is how we come to know good, and hate is how we come to long for and know love. To me all of the bad things are gifts to help us really experience the good.

BTW, if you decided to shoot someone (your example), that is an example of something that is inside you that makes you prone to rebellion and to the concept of not being in control which would validate that choice as a product of something else and not standing on its own as a "random" action. The simple fact that you have thought of it has exposed you to it. Our conversation on choice, and hearing the term free will are all things that will effect whether or not you decide to shoot someone to prove that you are free to do so and without all of those things leading up to it, you would not do it. If you have seen the movie Crash, it sort of demonstrates what I am talking about here.

[Thighs]

i have a question for the OP...

is the thought of a god really rational? or any more rational than the conclusion you mentioned in the first post?

not trying to change your beliefs or preach or anything, but alot of the stories told by the bible are EXTREMELY irrational and far-fetched, with the only explanation being that it is "gods work". that essentialy explains an impossible series of events by using an opinion, or an un-proven and impossible to prove basis, which SCIENTIFICALLY makes the answer to that question invalid. its very similar to someone asking "why is an e30 better than an e36?" with the answer being "because i like them better". whether people want to believe it or not, science is the basis of all things and the only way to 100% prove anything, yet theres no scientific proof or evidence that god does or doesnt exist.

i believe in organized religion as a good thing to some, but a horrible and ignorant crutch to others. there are many MANY people that let their religions influence them in a good way, but too many others who use it to discriminate, belittle, and hurt others. in my opinion, there is no such thing as a wrong or right religion, but there is people out there who act in ways that the founders and fathers of the churches etc. never EVER intended. the bible, koran, etc are all VERY similar and are more like stories with morals that have alot to teach about humanity and that have alot to teach to people, until they are misconstrued into negative things.

[sport_122]

i have a question for the OP...

is the thought of a god really rational? or any more rational than the conclusion you mentioned in the first post?

not trying to change your beliefs or preach or anything, but alot of the stories told by the bible are EXTREMELY irrational and far-fetched, with the only explanation being that it is "gods work". that essentialy explains an impossible series of events by using an opinion, or an un-proven and impossible to prove basis, which SCIENTIFICALLY makes the answer to that question invalid. its very similar to someone asking "why is an e30 better than an e36?" with the answer being "because i like them better". whether people want to believe it or not, science is the basis of all things and the only way to 100% prove anything, yet theres no scientific proof or evidence that god does or doesnt exist.


Science does not really prove anything. The scientific community itself does not even agree on many things so it cannot be viewed as authoritative on anything. Science is subjective like most things. It asks a question and answers it. but its very foundations are often made up of things that are not really testable because the tests themselves require the use of things that are not fully known. More questions arise from scientific study than answers. The chain of questions never end with science, and there is ALWAYS infinite things to be known, and science cannot grasp it.

Science is split on the idea of the origins of man, and scientific laws don't even have to be proven. They can be proven wrong and in some cases still called a law. Some things are not even understood, but called laws because they are highly observed.

Even the very nature of science has its misconceptions as to how valid its studies, tests etc are so trying to use science to prove anything is pointless. Also, for the things that we know about this world, many of them were known long before the age of reason and the scientific method.

[/QUOTE]... MANY people that let their religions influence them in a good way, but too many others who use it to discriminate, belittle, and hurt others. in my opinion, there is no such thing as a wrong or right religion, but there is people out there who act in ways that the founders and fathers of the churches etc. never EVER intended. the bible, koran, etc are all VERY similar and are more like stories with morals that have alot to teach about humanity and that have alot to teach to people, until they are misconstrued into negative things.[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree on this, which is why I think it is important to do your own research on the foundations of faith, and scientific study before coming to a conclusion that a faith is wrong, because more than likely its the individual.

I do believe there are wrong or false religions out there.

[Thighs]

Science does not really prove anything. The scientific community itself does not even agree on many things so it cannot be viewed as authoritative on anything. Science is subjective like most things. It asks a question and answers it. but its very foundations are often made up of things that are not really testable because the tests themselves require the use of things that are not fully known. More questions arise from scientific study than answers. The chain of questions never end with science, and there is ALWAYS infinite things to be known, and science cannot grasp it.

Science is split on the idea of the origins of man, and scientific laws don't even have to be proven. They can be proven wrong and in some cases still called a law. Some things are not even understood, but called laws because they are highly observed.

Even the very nature of science has its misconceptions as to how valid its studies, tests etc are so trying to use science to prove anything is pointless. Also, for the things that we know about this world, many of them were known long before the age of reason and the scientific method.

... MANY people that let their religions influence them in a good way, but too many others who use it to discriminate, belittle, and hurt others. in my opinion, there is no such thing as a wrong or right religion, but there is people out there who act in ways that the founders and fathers of the churches etc. never EVER intended. the bible, koran, etc are all VERY similar and are more like stories with morals that have alot to teach about humanity and that have alot to teach to people, until they are misconstrued into negative things.[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree on this, which is why I think it is important to do your own research on the foundations of faith, and scientific study before coming to a conclusion that a faith is wrong, because more than likely its the individual.

I do believe there are wrong or false religions out there.[/QUOTE]

i never said faith was wrong. i do, however, believe that 90% of the stories in the bible are just as they seem, stories. stories that should be read and DEFINITELY learned from, but still stories.

the difference between using science vs. faith to explain things is this:

science CAN be proven 100%. it may not have been so far, but it CAN be. everything that happens naturally is an "effect" to a "cause", and it creates a pattern that will be repeated until the end of time. religion cannot and will not ever be proven, unless there is some sort of LARGE and obvious event that proves it.

[Paul]

It seems to me that people use this bad world as an excuse to disbelieve in a good God, but does a bad world necessitate the absence of a good God?

I don't think it's reasonable

god is nothing more than filling the void and relating unexplainable events in understandable terms. anything is possible if you put enough "faith" in it ;)

http://images.inmagine.com/img/creatas/cr15367/cr15367033.jpg

[sport_122]

science CAN be proven 100%. it may not have been so far, but it CAN be. everything that happens naturally is an "effect" to a "cause", and it creates a pattern that will be repeated until the end of time. religion cannot and will not ever be proven, unless there is some sort of LARGE and obvious event that proves it.


This is not true. All scientist realize that for any question that is answered several more will arise. Scientist do not approach study with the idea that they are going to know everything about the way something works when that study is complete. Which is one of the reason that many scientist are starting to call science a religion. Because they realize that they have to use faith in what they do as well. To take the concepts from one study that is not 100% and to apply them to another only increases margin of error. The very nature of human development and understanding tells us that science is NEVER 100%. The way we understand something in an experiment today, can be completely different a year from now. Therefore anything revealed from that experiment has to be re-interpreted to be understood and it was not 100%. Which goes back to my statements about knowledge in its existence being eternal yet we cannot grasp it through science because it comes after revelation, only through revelation (things being made known over a period of time)

There are many scientific theories and laws that have been retracted.

can you provide an example of a 100% correct science/scientific study? Is there a chance that this study could be proven false or inaccurate? If so then I will completely retract my statement. Feel free to ask a professor or a science teacher.

[Paul]

This is not true. All scientist realize that for any question that is answered several more will arise. Scientist do not approach study with the idea that they are going to know everything about the way something works when that study is complete. Which is one of the reason that many scientist are starting to call science a religion. Because they realize that they have to use faith in what they do as well. To take the concepts from one study that is not 100% and to apply them to another only increases margin of error. The very nature of human development and understanding tells us that science is NEVER 100%. The way we understand something in an experiment today, can be completely different a year from now. Therefore anything revealed from that experiment has to be re-interpreted to be understood and it was not 100%. Which goes back to my statements about knowledge in its existence being eternal yet we cannot grasp it through science because it comes after revelation, only through revelation (things being made known over a period of time)

There are many scientific theories and laws that have been retracted.

can you provide an example of a 100% correct science/scientific study? Is there a chance that this study could be proven false or inaccurate? If so then I will completely retract my statement. Feel free to ask a professor or a science teacher.

modern science even w/ its short existence will explain life/man a lot quicker than religion will with fact based questions/answers. religion is far from being able to give the human race such - it just satisfies the need people have for questions.


http://sehcuponkillajankruhanyamkilla.podomatic.com/mymedia/thumb/18297/0x0_637855.jpg

[bookthief]

god is nothing more than filling the void and relating unexplainable events in understandable terms. anything is possible if you put enough "faith" in it ;)

http://images.inmagine.com/img/creatas/cr15367/cr15367033.jpg


God gave man free will. God allows man to choose evil, if that's what he wants. It's not God who created evil, it's not God who perpetuates evil, but man by choosing it over good.

[NewGen33]

Ever consider a problem or a issue in your life might be there for a reason. Not to tear you down but to build you up. You can learn how to solve it and in return become that stronger of a person. I find it no coincidence as you get older that problems get tougher and harder to solve. Yet you become a better stronger person by solving this problem. Think about it if you went through life without having to deal with any issues do you think you would be a stronger more knowledgeable person for it. Maybe God allows you to go through to better you as a person so you can reach your full potential. 0.02

[Paul]

God gave man free will. God allows man to choose evil, if that's what he wants. It's not God who created evil, it's not God who perpetuates evil, but man by choosing it over good.

everything you just stated only exists in your mind b/c i don't believe in your god nor your heaven/hell. furthermore a "god" who knows everything would have to be filled w/ good/evil b/c he purposely built his pets to fail.

i love how people talk like they hang out w/ god on a daily basis :screwy: - the human mind can't even comprehend what a GOD is or what a GOD intended so thinking all of the answers to lifes mysterys are in the big book is a life not lived.

[Maniacc]

I'm actualy quite embarrassed to say that bookthief is related to me after reading this thread. ;)

But to answer the OP this is what I think.

Suffering is the price we pay for free will. For God to eliminate suffering he would have to override our free will. Since humans are morally free creatures, we are able to do wrong if we choose it. If I wanted to murder people, I can. This would cause suffering. How would God eliminate my ability to murder? He would have to undermine my free choice.

So ask yourself, what is the greater evil: A world where suffering exists, or a world where we would not possess free action, a world where we were puppets?

Suffering is unavoidable in a world with free choice.

As the buddhists say, suffering is real, but suffering is temporary. Buddhism teaches that there will be an end to suffering, where christianity teaches endless suffering in hell. I am clearly not a buddhist or a christian but I appreciate teachings like that. Also, there are a lot of dumbfucks in this thread who know very little about this topic who think they know what they're talking about. Sadly though they're looking like complete morons.

[RL...]

I'm actualy quite embarrassed to say that bookthief is related to me after reading this thread. ;)

But to answer the OP this is what I think.

Suffering is the price we pay for free will. For God to eliminate suffering he would have to override our free will. Since humans are morally free creatures, we are able to do wrong if we choose it. If I wanted to murder people, I can. This would cause suffering. How would God eliminate my ability to murder? He would have to undermine my free choice.

So ask yourself, what is the greater evil: A world where suffering exists, or a world where we would not possess free action, a world where we were puppets?

Suffering is unavoidable in a world with free choice.

As the buddhists say, suffering is real, but suffering is temporary. Buddhism teaches that there will be an end to suffering, where christianity teaches endless suffering in hell. I am clearly not a buddhist or a christian but I appreciate teachings like that. Also, there are a lot of dumbfucks in this thread who know very little about this topic who think they know what they're talking about. Sadly though they're looking like complete morons.

Atleast now, you can admit you're a a dumbass.

[sport_122]

Atleast now, you can admit you're a a dumbass. Funny!





I'm actualy quite embarrassed to say that bookthief is related to me after reading this thread. ;)

But to answer the OP this is what I think.

Suffering is the price we pay for free will. For God to eliminate suffering he would have to override our free will. Since humans are morally free creatures, we are able to do wrong if we choose it. If I wanted to murder people, I can. This would cause suffering. How would God eliminate my ability to murder? He would have to undermine my free choice.

So ask yourself, what is the greater evil: A world where suffering exists, or a world where we would not possess free action, a world where we were puppets?

Suffering is unavoidable in a world with free choice.

As the buddhists say, suffering is real, but suffering is temporary. Buddhism teaches that there will be an end to suffering, where christianity teaches endless suffering in hell. I am clearly not a buddhist or a christian but I appreciate teachings like that. Also, there are a lot of dumbfucks in this thread who know very little about this topic who think they know what they're talking about. Sadly though they're looking like complete morons.

First off, nice s14. I got a 97 and I love it.

Secondly,

I can't really agree with the free will thing. If you are basing it on what the Bible says then suffering is a product of sin not free will. Much like punishing your child when he does something wrong. He doesn't get punished for making ANY choice, ONLY when he does what you told him not to. With your statement "Suffering is unavoidable in a world with free choice." What if everyone made the right choice? That is why it doesn't work. Also I think if you use either one of these definition, it shows that there are consequences to decisions which means that there is something universal about right and wrong.

I believe (this is subjective and you don't have to agree) suffering is unavoidable in a world with sin. i think that suffering is a product of sin, and sin is a product of disobedience, whether its God or its your parents beating your butt when you disobey the point is you get punished. I believe that somehow all suffering is a product of sin. ONLY because I believe that there is universal law and breaking those laws causes damage.

[bookthief]

First off, nice s14. I got a 97 and I love it

That's not his car

[bookthief]

I'm actualy quite embarrassed to say that bookthief is related to me after reading this thread. ;)

But to answer the OP this is what I think.

Suffering is the price we pay for free will. For God to eliminate suffering he would have to override our free will. Since humans are morally free creatures, we are able to do wrong if we choose it. If I wanted to murder people, I can. This would cause suffering. How would God eliminate my ability to murder? He would have to undermine my free choice.

So ask yourself, what is the greater evil: A world where suffering exists, or a world where we would not possess free action, a world where we were puppets?

Suffering is unavoidable in a world with free choice.

As the buddhists say, suffering is real, but suffering is temporary. Buddhism teaches that there will be an end to suffering, where christianity teaches endless suffering in hell. I am clearly not a buddhist or a christian but I appreciate teachings like that. Also, there are a lot of dumbfucks in this thread who know very little about this topic who think they know what they're talking about. Sadly though they're looking like complete morons.

On the contrary, I should be the one to be mortified stating that you are related to me.
And uh...quick question..since you know both sides to "religion" which side are you on? I know you claim yourself an athiest/agnostic, whichever.. my point is-I actually think you are slowly, but surely falling into the 'real' side.

(If you catch my drift)

[bookthief]

everything you just stated only exists in your mind b/c i don't believe in your god nor your heaven/hell. furthermore a "god" who knows everything would have to be filled w/ good/evil b/c he purposely built his pets to fail.

i love how people talk like they hang out w/ god on a daily basis :screwy: - the human mind can't even comprehend what a GOD is or what a GOD intended so thinking all of the answers to lifes mysterys are in the big book is a life not lived.

I don't have much of a faith. But I'll let you know, I have my own. Isn't that the ultimate meaning to life? Finding your own way, striving your path, and ultimately finding your own happiness? I've looked into the other faiths, I've looked at life. I take what I like, and I try and live by them. I don't need a single set of rules to hold me down and make me a good person. A person can have his or her own beliefs about the world.

[Paul]

I don't have much of a faith. But I'll let you know, I have my own. Isn't that the ultimate meaning to life? Finding your own way, striving your path, and ultimately finding your own happiness? I've looked into the other faiths, I've looked at life. I take what I like, and I try and live by them. I don't need a single set of rules to hold me down and make me a good person. A person can have his or her own beliefs about the world.

well you seem to be alot more open minded about your religion than you came off in some of your post. whatever works for you; for me God is Dead in this day in age.

[bookthief]

well you seem to be alot more open minded about your religion than you came off in some of your post. whatever works for you; for me God is Dead in this day in age.


That's just it Paul, I don't have a religion.
Whenever my mother claims that 'we' are christians, I just remain silent.
I don't know what to think/believe anymore:(

[sport_122]

That's just it Paul, I don't have a religion.
Whenever my mother claims that 'we' are christians, I just remain silent.
I don't know what to think/believe anymore:(

I honestly feel like in some ways this is better than being the person who just agrees to be Christian with no real thought to it. I just hope that whether you decide what faith is for you or not, that you really investigate and have a firm understanding of WHY you believe what you believe. On all sides of the theist, non-theist, and atheist debate there are too many people who just do it because they heard someone else who is just as uninformed and ungrounded say it and they have NO idea why they believe anything or why their understanding is such. This bothers me about the totality of the Christian faiths especially in America, and especially in the south.

[Maniacc]

Atleast now, you can admit you're a a dumbass.
Why is it that everytime I present people with some facts about their stupidity they automatically assume that somehow I'm full of shit?

Is it because they're tardfucks who can't handle being called incompetent one-eyed inbreds with a huge desire to be successful only to come to the realization a few seconds later that they just do not have the brain capacity to succeed?

Nissantuner, stop trying to crawl up behind me like a one-legged homeless man begging for change - it's embarrassing and quite frankly I'm tired of having you try soo hard to get my attention just so you can attempt to flame me only to look like a complete dumbass who's obviously having whirls of sexual confusion and trying to cover up this homosexual curiosity by making pinkpony threads and claiming to find girls attractive. Stop fronting faggot.

And stop acting like you know anything about religion. I haven't read any of your posts but just by reading some of your past posts I can already safely say that they contain about as much useful information as garbage man has to the study of neuroscience. Shit, even my little sister has out smarted you in this thread. So just shut the fuck up.

[Maniacc]

On the contrary, I should be the one to be mortified stating that you are related to me.
And uh...quick question..since you know both sides to "religion" which side are you on? I know you claim yourself an athiest/agnostic, whichever.. my point is-I actually think you are slowly, but surely falling into the 'real' side.

(If you catch my drift)
Only thing you need to be mortified about is your daily trip to the restroom. You know. Where there's mirrors 'n shit?

Now sit down and pay attention because I'm not going to drag this on and on until I just completely make you look like a retarded shit covered dildo. Not with you. Your whole argument doesn't amount to shit because it's nothing but your own opinion on it. You can't provide us with facts that God exists nor that he provides us with free will. PERIOD!

So all your babbling and facts are irrelevant because you can't prove shit and only go by your faith and beliefs.

[Maniacc]

I can't really agree with the free will thing. If you are basing it on what the Bible says then suffering is a product of sin not free will. Much like punishing your child when he does something wrong. He doesn't get punished for making ANY choice, ONLY when he does what you told him not to. With your statement "Suffering is unavoidable in a world with free choice." What if everyone made the right choice? That is why it doesn't work. Also I think if you use either one of these definition, it shows that there are consequences to decisions which means that there is something universal about right and wrong.

Wake up. Living organisms have an agenda which is to survive. S U R V I V E!

Pretty simple. Eat the weak and survive. You'll evetually get killed by a stronger, younger being thus causing the cycle of life to continue. There is no mysterious phenomena occurring here! Just life.

If you can't comprehend that then just stop trying me. Because I've debated religion for a long long time! On IA, in person, in church, you name it. I can go on for days and days. You think you can provide me with some entertainment? Lemme tell you something. NO one on IA can which is why I don't even bother to debate it anymore.

Because it's a waste of my time.

People commit evil because we're not some pansy fucks who would rather live in a garden of flowers drinking tea and talking about the times we helped build a new school/church, gave food to charity, ect. That's all gay shit. We would rather act like animals in one way or another. Which is why people drink, smoke do bad, fuck random girls/guys, commit murder... because we're not a peaceful species. And that's the truth.




I believe (this is subjective and you don't have to agree) suffering is unavoidable in a world with sin. i think that suffering is a product of sin, and sin is a product of disobedience, whether its God or its your parents beating your butt when you disobey the point is you get punished. I believe that somehow all suffering is a product of sin. ONLY because I believe that there is universal law and breaking those laws causes damage.

No. It's because we're curious fucks.


....

PS: If you don't know me, know that I'm a very very big douchebag. Don't take what I say to heart - religion is just a subject that bugs the fuck outta me. Especially when I think the other person's retort is filled with stupidity.

[RL...]

Why is it that everytime I present people with some facts about their stupidity they automatically assume that somehow I'm full of shit?

Is it because they're tardfucks who can't handle being called incompetent one-eyed inbreds with a huge desire to be successful only to come to the realization a few seconds later that they just do not have the brain capacity to succeed?

Nissantuner, stop trying to crawl up behind me like a one-legged homeless man begging for change - it's embarrassing and quite frankly I'm tired of having you try soo hard to get my attention just so you can attempt to flame me only to look like a complete dumbass who's obviously having whirls of sexual confusion and trying to cover up this homosexual curiosity by making pinkpony threads and claiming to find girls attractive. Stop fronting faggot.

And stop acting like you know anything about religion. I haven't read any of your posts but just by reading some of your past posts I can already safely say that they contain about as much useful information as garbage man has to the study of neuroscience. Shit, even my little sister has out smarted you in this thread. So just shut the fuck up.

I get more attractive girls than you have masturbated to maniac, get off my nuts and go find qd. He's into that type of thing ya know...:chuckles:

[Maniacc]

I get more attractive girls than you have masturbated to maniac, get off my nuts and go find qd. He's into that type of thing ya know...:chuckles:
Only time that I masturbate is when I'm about to shoot a huge warm load into my girlfriend's mouth. I'm sure you know what that's like. Only difference is that when this goes down with you, you're the one on the opposite side of the dick taking that warm load like a champ. Admit it your fucksticle. You love the dick and just reading this is making your mouth water.

Seriously dude just stop.

This isn't the whores lounge which means there really isn't anyone here that'll laugh at you so this doesn't entertain me. So just stop trailing behind me like a lost dog and just hop onto that road of failure and fuck off.

[bookthief]

I honestly feel like in some ways this is better than being the person who just agrees to be Christian with no real thought to it. I just hope that whether you decide what faith is for you or not, that you really investigate and have a firm understanding of WHY you believe what you believe. On all sides of the theist, non-theist, and atheist debate there are too many people who just do it because they heard someone else who is just as uninformed and ungrounded say it and they have NO idea why they believe anything or why their understanding is such. This bothers me about the totality of the Christian faiths especially in America, and especially in the south.


I hear ya...I can honestly say I am bewildered by 'religion' all around.
So much variety it's not even funny--it's scary.
Many people are easily duped, they follow and believe anything or anyone they hear. They have no minds of their own. And I definately don't want that happening with me. I guess I'll just try and live by the way, I think is right and see where it ends up...

[bookthief]

Only thing you need to be mortified about is your daily trip to the restroom. You know. Where there's mirrors 'n shit?

Now sit down and pay attention because I'm not going to drag this on and on until I just completely make you look like a retarded shit covered dildo. Not with you. Your whole argument doesn't amount to shit because it's nothing but your own opinion on it. You can't provide us with facts that God exists nor that he provides us with free will. PERIOD!

So all your babbling and facts are irrelevant because you can't prove shit and only go by your faith and beliefs.


1970 called--they want their mirror joke back.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
I know its an opinion, everyone has one, including you, gunt.
'You can't provide us with facts'/'So all your babbling and facts are'

^^which one is it?


Look Alex, I'm not gonna argue with you either. Im so fed up with this bologna. I know with all the documents you see and hear on T.V. or read on the internet, has driven you to believe in whatever it is you believe.
Im not with you and im not against you. I just want you to make money and have a good life with your future wife.
Just like you have opinions/beliefs, so does everyone else. Don't always try and be the 'right one' or the top dog, relating to such an inexplicable topic.
you will contradict others and vis-versa.

[Maniacc]

1970 called--they want their mirror joke back.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
I know its an opinion, everyone has one, including you, gunt.
'You can't provide us with facts'/'So all your babbling and facts are'

^^which one is it?


Look Alex, I'm not gonna argue with you either. Im so fed up with this bologna. I know with all the documents you see and hear on T.V. or read on the internet, has driven you to believe in whatever it is you believe.
Im not with you and im not against you. I just want you to make money and have a good life with your future wife.
Just like you have opinions/beliefs, so does everyone else. Don't always try and be the 'right one' or the top dog, relating to such an inexplicable topic.
you will contradict others and vis-versa.
I guess I should have empathized 'facts' huh? Maybe then you could have sensed my sarcasm when I said 'So all your babbling and facts are irrelevant.' I thought you would be smart enough to catch it but I guess you fooled me.

I'm not trying to put you or your beliefs down by posting to you the way that I am. You're smarter than this which is why I'm embarrassed to read you trying so hard to sound smart. It's just too adorable. :) Now shut up and stop putting my business out there on teh web - I has no wife, k.

[bookthief]

I guess I should have empathized 'facts' huh? Maybe then you could have sensed my sarcasm when I said 'So all your babbling and facts are irrelevant.' I thought you would be smart enough to catch it but I guess you fooled me.

I'm not trying to put you or your beliefs down by posting to you the way that I am. You're smarter than this which is why I'm embarrassed to read you trying so hard to sound smart. It's just too adorable. :) Now shut up and stop putting my business out there on teh web - I has no wife, k.


Laugh out fuckin loud...
Ever thought maybe, I was making a funny as well?
It's just comical to me when you say I have beliefs--I don't.
Like I said, I don't know anymore, and I don't really care.
Im not even trying.
Like you.
Now be a good little boy and clean the house before the girlfriend gets home:goodjob:

[RL...]

Only time that I masturbate is when I'm about to shoot a huge warm load into my girlfriend's mouth. I'm sure you know what that's like. Only difference is that when this goes down with you, you're the one on the opposite side of the dick taking that warm load like a champ. Admit it your fucksticle. You love the dick and just reading this is making your mouth water.

Seriously dude just stop.

This isn't the whores lounge which means there really isn't anyone here that'll laugh at you so this doesn't entertain me. So just stop trailing behind me like a lost dog and just hop onto that road of failure and fuck off.

Wow you are delusional aren't you...I think you confuse your sexual habits with mine, you're the cocksucker, not me...

[Maniacc]

Wow you are delusional aren't you...I think you confuse your sexual habits with mine, you're the cocksucker, not me...
I've listened to atheist arguments from nearly every source; such as Richard Dawkins, Penn Jillette, and even my college roommate. This is the best evidence I've ever seen for the absence of a God.

[RL...]

I've listened to atheist arguments from nearly every source; such as Richard Dawkins, Penn Jillette, and even my college roommate. This is the best evidence I've ever seen for the absence of a God.


Your 2 inch pecker dick should be attributed the best evidence for the absence of god....