The End of Christian America

[Paul]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583?GT1=43002

read/discuss.




the number of people willing to describe themselves as atheist or agnostic has increased about fourfold from 1990 to 2009, from 1 million to about 3.6 million.



I skimmed through it since it was rather lengthy and I'm at work but i do think we are finally on a path to two extremes Godlessness and Radicals. I think people around the world in developed nations are seeking less in God than ever before as those who core values are shaped by Church influence are becoming stronger due to times at hand. In the end I think specially here in America those who do not believe in the Christian God or its influence on modern politics are finally getting the voice they deserve.

[leobond001]

and the funny thing is. as ppl change there religions, things keep getting worse.

[Jdm94Coupe]

^ but look at the ppl in high power..... still religious.... what does that say? look at all the violence from religious ppl and all the negative things happening around religious leaders.

[Jdm94Coupe]

and the funny thing is. as ppl change there religions, things keep getting worse.

Don't blame the hard times on people not being religious, thats a non-logical cop out. Put some fact behind it.

[leobond001]

i wasnt saying because of hard time. but if you read the book of revelations, they talk about some of this. chaos and disease. look at the past 50 or 60 years, not just 5.

[AirMax95]

Reading......

[BanginJimmy]

^ but look at the ppl in high power..... still religious.... what does that say? look at all the violence from religious ppl and all the negative things happening around religious leaders.

more people have been raped/tortured/murdered/enslaved in the name of religion than any other cause.

[VIP Style]

man i read this article, its quite disturbing actually.

[Sport1.3]

more people have been raped/tortured/murdered in the name of religion than any other cause.

add enslaved to that list

[BanginJimmy]

add enslaved to that list


added

[SampaGuy]

There are these signs on public transportation on most major cities in Europe, in different languages:


http://matsuinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/111.jpg

[leobond001]

people have lost faith. this country was founded on christian beliefs, and now it's gone

[BanginJimmy]

I dont see that as a bad thing or a good thing. It is just something that happens. It is also part of our drive towards socialism.

[zimabog]

people have lost faith. this country was founded on christian beliefs, and now it's gone


i thought it was founded on freedom and pursuit of happiness?

most of the founding fathers were not christian, but deist. abe lincoln even rejected organized religion. that "founded on christian beliefs" is just a myth made up by people. it is true that a majority of people were christian, but the major politicians of the revolution were not christian.

[AirMax95]

i thought it was founded on freedom and pursuit of happiness?

most of the founding fathers were not christian, but deist. abe lincoln even rejected organized religion. that "founded on christian beliefs" is just a myth made up by people. it is true that a majority of people were christian, but the major politicians of the revolution were not christian.

Check your local currency......

[zimabog]

Check your local currency......
you mean this local currency?
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2851/38740146.jpg
I do this to all my paper money.

that was put on the dollar bill in the late/middle 1950s.... america was not founded in the 1950s. it is an unconstitutional phrase when on something even as semi-federal as our money.

it was simply put there on order by a religious president to:
"In these days when imperialistic and materialistic Communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, it is proper to remind all of us of this self-evident truth that as long as this country trusts in God, it will prevail."

which is a load of bullshit. any sort of god does not allow the country to "prevail". A communist is better than a theocrat.
Communism in europe rose up from the extreme power and wealth of the church clergy and tsar (kings as you know, have power given by god).... so it only makes sense that priests and stuff would go away with communism in those times.

[SampaGuy]

Under God does not mean under Christ. It is not christian. Like zimabog said, the founding fathers were deist or agnostic.

[SUBY_RUE]

more people have been raped/tortured/murdered/enslaved in the name of religion than any other cause.

Thats true...

But I'm still a believer, becouse religion is not the only thing people have killed in the name of... hell... we killed the hell out of alot of people in the name of freedom, I dont see the difference...

Im not bashing or saying anyone is wrong with their opinion btw... just my .02...

[cwhiteboy]

you mean this local currency?
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2851/38740146.jpg
I do this to all my paper money.

that was put on the dollar bill in the late/middle 1950s.... america was not founded in the 1950s. it is an unconstitutional phrase when on something even as semi-federal as our money.

it was simply put there on order by a religious president to:
"In these days when imperialistic and materialistic Communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, it is proper to remind all of us of this self-evident truth that as long as this country trusts in God, it will prevail."

which is a load of bullshit. any sort of god does not allow the country to "prevail". A communist is better than a theocrat.
Communism in europe rose up from the extreme power and wealth of the church clergy and tsar (kings as you know, have power given by god).... so it only makes sense that priests and stuff would go away with communism in those times.

Man you beat me to all of it, glad to see some intelligent people around on these forums. :cheers: .

[EJ25RUN]

There are these signs on public transportation on most major cities in Europe, in different languages:


http://matsuinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/111.jpg
I saw that.

Wish we had that over here.


and the funny thing is. as ppl change there religions, things keep getting worse.

er, isn't it most Christians that usually start problems in the first place by not respecting other faiths for being different?

[SUBY_RUE]

I saw that.

Wish we had that over here.



er, isn't it most Christians that usually start problems in the first place by not respecting other faiths for being different?

Yes and no... The christians start as many problem as other beliefs or non beliefs do, its just nobody admits fault... Everybody thinks they are right, and that is what starts trouble...

I just look at it like this, if you believe...cool, if you dont...cool... Just dont go around pushing your point and beliefs on someone... I'm the type that, as long as someone is cool and respectfull... then we will get along. I have tons of freinds that dont believe in religion, it doesnt faze me at all...

[afwfjustin]

and the funny thing is. as ppl change there religions, things keep getting worse.

These have nothing to do with one another. You could say "as people change their religions, the American car industry keeps getting worse."

It's about time people stop relying on religion.

[EJ25RUN]

It's about time people stop relying on religion.

Wow. Nail on head there!

[afwfjustin]

There are these signs on public transportation on most major cities in Europe, in different languages:


http://matsuinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/111.jpg

LOL

<--proud atheist

[Revmaynard]

LOL

<--proud atheist


x2


You live IN Edgewood Shopping District???

[BanginJimmy]

y
it was simply put there on order by a religious president to:

Wrong, it was put there as part of a joint resolution of the 84th Congress to certify "In God We Trust" as our national motto. That resolution, P.L. 84-140, was signed by the President on July 30, 1956.

Go back to before paper money though and "In God We Trust" has appeared on coinage, more specifically the 2cent coin, since 1864.

[Starrfire]

good. Looks like a few of the "Christians" who are hypocritical and the catholics who just go to church on easter sunday finally thought about the religion as a whole and actually tried rationalizing it, and found out that it is bull shit. Therefore, the number of a "maybe" god increase. Because really, man made up all the words, put them together, added what they thought stories needed, took out what sounded bad and there's the bible. A book made a couple of thousand years ago by a bunch of sheep hearding towel heads. What if today someone said they were Jesus Christ and he was sent here to save all humanity. Believe that shit. Agnosticisim is good, because you believe there is something out there. Because in the end no matter how much faith you have misplaced in some odd religion, you still don't know what's on the other side, and I'm just here to live my life the best I can. If something good comes of it then great. I'm not here to grovel to some made up shit.

[zimabog]

i dont care who or when it was put on there, it shouldnt be there. we are not a nation under a god. its not like the president was just handed this bill and was like "oh whats this bill here? in god we trust, sure whatever." he wanted this. but yes, the blame is also on the 84th congress.



osticisim is good, because you believe there is something out there.
thats not what it means

[Starrfire]

b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

No, it's not what it means, but it could depend on what your views of agnoticisim are tool

[ahabion]

These have nothing to do with one another. You could say "as people change their religions, the American car industry keeps getting worse."

It's about time people stop relying on religion.

I have a better idea, how about people start taking responsibility for themselves and of each other?

People are simply looking for someone or something to blame, be it God, Government, or rich/poor people... but really, if we were to simply take responsibility for our actions but also take responsibility for our society, it would be transforming.

If we keep changing our laws, policies, and values to make YOU feel good... what's the point of having laws, policies and values? What makes America unique in comparison to the rest of the world is its values and how each person is individualized, no two exactly the same or having the same aspirations, dreams, so on and so forth... America was founded under Godly principles, the exact same principles that would encourage the unique individualism that has made America the greatest global power in the world. If these people were not Godly people, they should have never signed it.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

The more you strip away God, the more you strip away individualism and in essence, freedom. The further we've moved away from God, the more socialized we become, relying on things like government, social programs, and someone elses work. The more we drift away from being a republic, the more we become socialists.

[zimabog]

b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

No, it's not what it means, but it could depend on what your views of agnoticisim are tool

that is not the correct definition.

agnostic: one without knowledge.... one who affirms that the existence or non-existence of a god is unknown. you can be agnostic theist or agnostic atheist... it just means that you believe that you can not know. even richard dawkins is agnostic, and he has said that.

atheism is just "without god"... one who doesnt believe. they dont have to say that they 'know there isnt'.

[_Christian_]

richard dawkins
The bus makes one more stop in this thread..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_ Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg/800px-Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_ Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg

[Drummerboy]

Reading this thread really has upset me. Not in an anger way, but more in a "I wish they got it" way.

First off, the word "christian" has been tainted so much and contorted from what it really means, "to be like christ". The common christian now is no more than a hypocritical person who scorns other people for not saying they are christians. I get that! and let me speak at least for myself, and say i apologize for letting it get like that.
We as Christians have dropped the ball. We are held to a higher standard, be it from the media or our daily lives.

Also, "Religion" is commonly associated with Christianity. thats completely wrong. I HATE Religion. It tends to form cults and is nothing more than rules.

I personally have a Relationship with God. And by that i mean, I read my Bible, I pray and God honestly speaks back. Sometimes through showing me new things in the Bible or speaking directly to me through the Still, small voice that the Bible talks about. Which as a side note, the Hebrew word there doesn't even refer to an audible voice, His voice is in the Silence! ah its so awesome to me.

Im not trying to bash at all! please know that, but how can you answer things like Evolution? And people being healed instantly from things?

Personal testimony to that; When I was 12 (before deciding on getting to know God) I had siezures like crazy, constantly. this lasted for close to a year. Then one night my dad was at a prayer meeting, and the pastor asked my dad (they had never met because this was a new church for us) what was going on with his son. My dad explained, and they prayed for me and continued to seek God for my healing. At that same time, i happened to be on a Dr Table having a siezure. It Instantly stopped. They ran an EEG and an EKG......Nothing. they couldn't explain it.

I just dont know how else you can explain that.






Curious, who on IA is actually man (or woman) enough to admit that they are actually a Christian?

[SampaGuy]

The bus makes one more stop in this thread..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_ Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg/800px-Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_ Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg


hot atheist chicks ftw. haven't we all been cockblocked by religion at some point LOL

[SampaGuy]

Reading this thread really has upset me. Not in an anger way, but more in a "I wish they got it" way.

First off, the word "christian" has been tainted so much and contorted from what it really means, "to be like christ". The common christian now is no more than a hypocritical person who scorns other people for not saying they are christians. I get that! and let me speak at least for myself, and say i apologize for letting it get like that.
We as Christians have dropped the ball. We are held to a higher standard, be it from the media or our daily lives.

Also, "Religion" is commonly associated with Christianity. thats completely wrong. I HATE Religion. It tends to form cults and is nothing more than rules.

I personally have a Relationship with God. And by that i mean, I read my Bible, I pray and God honestly speaks back. Sometimes through showing me new things in the Bible or speaking directly to me through the Still, small voice that the Bible talks about. Which as a side note, the Hebrew word there doesn't even refer to an audible voice, His voice is in the Silence! ah its so awesome to me.

Im not trying to bash at all! please know that, but how can you answer things like Evolution? And people being healed instantly from things?

Personal testimony to that; When I was 12 (before deciding on getting to know God) I had siezures like crazy, constantly. this lasted for close to a year. Then one night my dad was at a prayer meeting, and the pastor asked my dad (they had never met because this was a new church for us) what was going on with his son. My dad explained, and they prayed for me and continued to seek God for my healing. At that same time, i happened to be on a Dr Table having a siezure. It Instantly stopped. They ran an EEG and an EKG......Nothing. they couldn't explain it.

I just dont know how else you can explain that.






Curious, who on IA is actually man (or woman) enough to admit that they are actually a Christian?

Admitting to what? Either you are or you're not. If someone is denial, they have bigger problems.

Evolution is not even a theory anymore, I work for a biotech company, we mutate living cells everyday in our labs. With the technology of today, it would take hundreds of years for us to mutate a whole animal (faster than nature at least), but the point is that Darwin was right. The scientific publications are there, they are just ignored by the church. Of course there are still mysteries like who started it all, what came first the chicken or the egg, etc.

Since I am somewhat agnostic and do believe in a higher power, I am open to the possibility of God doing miracles, curing your seizures, etc, things beyond science. But understand that could have nothing to do with christianity, the bible, and other inventions of man, so you cannot use it as proof.

[leobond001]

^^^^ most scientist or people in science believe in the same thing you do. theres no room for both evolution the the bible, because they dont go together on any level.

Just like drummerboy, i to have heard GOD. and i'm building my relationship with him. yeah people back track and all, but we're human, not perfect. i know he exists and can offer so many wonderful things.

[SPOOLIN]

denying religion is fine, thats not what makes the world get worse, its simply the lack of common sense and basic values that starts screwing everything up!

i dont see a sign on the bus, only a hot chick with a white t shirt on.

[Total_Blender]

Our country was founded on the principle of religious freedom. Without a state mandated religion, Quakers, Calvinists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Catholics, etc could all live in harmony.

In Europe at the time of the American revolution, the Christians couldn't even get along with each other. Not only were the Catholics and protestants fighting, the protestant denominations where fighting amongst themselves.

It is through a lack of religion in public life that we are free to be religious in our private lives. Why can't people see that?

Luke: 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

Matthew 6:5 - 6:6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Even the bible tells of the separation between church and state. School prayer, the ten commandments in the courtroom, the pro-life movement... its all a big public spectacle like the hypocrites praying in the synagogues. If you want to pray, pray on your own time... don't try to make my kids pray too. If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. Thats the mistake of the religious right in America... trying to dictate to others how to live.

I should be able to choose if I want to have a beer on Sunday or not. If I do and its a sin or whatever, how does that effect anyone but me?

The Germs: No God
I peered in every window where
I saw a cross
But I could never see just what they saw
In that piece of plaster on the wall,
See...there's no God to fear-
No God to hear your cries...

I'd prey to anything out there
If only I was given some sign to bear
But while I wait I'm gonna live,
See...there's no God to watch over me-
No God for human beings...

[leobond001]

Even in MAtthew, Jesus says to pray in private and not in public. And what i've gotten from the bible about the seperation of chruch and state is that is will always cause foolish arguments and debates.

I forgot the book in the Bible where it talks about not entering foolish conversations or arguments

[AirMax95]

you mean this local currency?
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2851/38740146.jpg
I do this to all my paper money.

that was put on the dollar bill in the late/middle 1950s.... america was not founded in the 1950s. it is an unconstitutional phrase when on something even as semi-federal as our money.

it was simply put there on order by a religious president to:
"In these days when imperialistic and materialistic Communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, it is proper to remind all of us of this self-evident truth that as long as this country trusts in God, it will prevail."

which is a load of bullshit. any sort of god does not allow the country to "prevail". A communist is better than a theocrat.
Communism in europe rose up from the extreme power and wealth of the church clergy and tsar (kings as you know, have power given by god).... so it only makes sense that priests and stuff would go away with communism in those times.

I was not disputing the basis of this country's founding. I was typing a huge post, but stopped b/c I thought this thread would fail. The Treaty of Tripoli states that the U.S. was NOT founded on Christianity. Thomas Jefferson wrote majority of the Declareation of Independance, and chose to use "God" but in reference to "natures god". By TJ reference "God" in any form in the constitution, he screwed this document and any more after that.

The country went from Christian belief, to SOME adopting a deist belief of a supernatural "nature god", to the founders of the country rejecting Christianity in a country whose obvious dominant RELIGION was CHRISTIANITY. Now, tell me where anyone in this day and age can make light of this country's TRUE founding. The fence riding is sad in this country.

The U.S. was settled by Christians and has always had a Christian majority. The founding fathers were on the side of deism and Freemasonry beliefs (suspposedly). Now, if you know the history and clout of Freemasonry then you will understand where I am going. Rising up from arrest and forming a new view on life that STILL takes orthodox religious beliefs makes no sense. Being a deist is almost contradictory and assabackwards in its views. You don't believe in a "personal" god, yet you believe that some supernatural force (Natures god) created the earth and disappeared.

Bottom line, NO one on this earth can call the other crazy. 98% of religious kooks, diest, athiests, etc. do not know where their belief formed.......unless you just believe.

Like SUBY_RUE said, don't push your beliefs onto anyone. The finger pointing of people causes the uprising and conflict.

Edit: I do believe the idea that how a man chose to worship should remain only as his own personal business.

[zimabog]

well if by "check your local currency" you wanted me to reply with something different than talking about currency, then my apologies.

[AirMax95]

Wrong, it was put there as part of a joint resolution of the 84th Congress to certify "In God We Trust" as our national motto. That resolution, P.L. 84-140, was signed by the President on July 30, 1956.

Go back to before paper money though and "In God We Trust" has appeared on coinage, more specifically the 2cent coin, since 1864.

Damnit, I was looking for this. There was an essay written on the difference between "God" and "Natures God", and how the difference came about. There is a lot more to the beliefs that many of us hold today.


well if by "check your local currency" you wanted me to reply with something different than talking about currency, then my apologies.

No apology needed, lol. I did kind of just throw it out there.

[Drummerboy]

I completely Agree with Airmax and Suby_rue, we shouldn't force our beliefs on anyone.
I try not to force my beliefs, just voice them because;

Ezekiel 33:2
2Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: 'When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman,3and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the scord comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. 5Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. if he had taken warning, he would have saved himself.6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.

God says "son of man" thats me, and so he is telling me to tell others about him, even if they don't listen. As much as i wish they did, thats on them now.

As far as the "condemning Christian" stereotype, thats not a christian that is walking in Gods Will. Example:

Matthew 8:11
11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "why does your teacher eat with tax collecttors and 'sinners'?" 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

We as christians should be humble and merciful. Sometimes I think we get this superiority complex, but its so far from the truth. The Book of Romans says "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". We all screw up, we all make mistakes, we are all human. But the great news (which translates to 'the Gospel') is that God Loves us, all of us, more than we can comprehend. The Classic verse that most everyone knows, John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world That he sent his only son, that who so ever believes in him, won't die, but have ever lasting Life. God did not send his son in to the world to condemn the world but that the world, through him might be saved".

Look, I'll be the first to admit, I don't know everything. I don't have all the answers. Honestly, I haven't even read the entire Bible, although most of it. But I do know that God Loves me, and that his plan is for me to prosper. I'm done debating because I feel like I've been pretty clear on how I feel and what I believe. But if anyone is interested in knowing anymore about this God thing and what its all about, PM me. I'll try my best to answer any questions and try to help you understand who God is.

God Bless, Guys:goodjob:

[jwrape]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583?GT1=43002

read/discuss.







I skimmed through it since it was rather lengthy and I'm at work but i do think we are finally on a path to two extremes Godlessness and Radicals. I think people around the world in developed nations are seeking less in God than ever before as those who core values are shaped by Church influence are becoming stronger due to times at hand. In the end I think specially here in America those who do not believe in the Christian God or its influence on modern politics are finally getting the voice they deserve.


OH....MY.... LORD!!!!:screwy: :no: :cry:

WOW! What a statement.:cry:

[jwrape]

more people have been raped/tortured/murdered/enslaved in the name of religion than any other cause.

Now that's a cop out. How do you support that? You got proof? That's a large statement to be throwing around. :no:

[jwrape]

Within all the forums I subscribe to, IA is by far has the most non-believers than as any forum that I have run across. My only reasoning I can figure is because there is such a HUGE membership of over 30000, larger than most any forum I have found, that it makes for a high concentration of non-believers.

Furthermore, I find it fascinating that the "non-beleivers" start threads like this all the time looking to start a large conversation about non-believers and Christians knowing it will bring some of the Christians out to defend their lord.

To me this sounds like the old stories of the non-believers attacking the believers because they just don't understand them. :screwy:

I say leave everyone alone to believe what they want. Personally I don't really care if you beleive what I believe. I feel sorry for you that you don't believe in SOMETHING but nevertheless:cheers:

[ahabion]

I was not disputing the basis of this country's founding. I was typing a huge post, but stopped b/c I thought this thread would fail. The Treaty of Tripoli states that the U.S. was NOT founded on Christianity. Thomas Jefferson wrote majority of the Declareation of Independance, and chose to use "God" but in reference to "natures god". By TJ reference "God" in any form in the constitution, he screwed this document and any more after that.

The country went from Christian belief, to SOME adopting a deist belief of a supernatural "nature god", to the founders of the country rejecting Christianity in a country whose obvious dominant RELIGION was CHRISTIANITY. Now, tell me where anyone in this day and age can make light of this country's TRUE founding. The fence riding is sad in this country.

The U.S. was settled by Christians and has always had a Christian majority. The founding fathers were on the side of deism and Freemasonry beliefs (suspposedly). Now, if you know the history and clout of Freemasonry then you will understand where I am going. Rising up from arrest and forming a new view on life that STILL takes orthodox religious beliefs makes no sense. Being a deist is almost contradictory and assabackwards in its views. You don't believe in a "personal" god, yet you believe that some supernatural force (Natures god) created the earth and disappeared.

Bottom line, NO one on this earth can call the other crazy. 98% of religious kooks, diest, athiests, etc. do not know where their belief formed.......unless you just believe.

Like SUBY_RUE said, don't push your beliefs onto anyone. The finger pointing of people causes the uprising and conflict.

Edit: I do believe the idea that how a man chose to worship should remain only as his own personal business.

I was referring more to the second paragraph in the Dec. of Indep. That all people are created equal as endowed by our Creator.

Not saying that the Founders based on Christian principles per se, but they did base it on God, be it Nature God, God of the Jews, or any other God. I myself am Christian, but do I personally know if the Founders were Christians? No of course not, nor do I presume to know. Nevertheless, our Founders saw how important it was for us to have core values and a belief structure so that we as a people can govern ourselves in such a way that would not otherwise be detrimental to society and of our individuality.

[ash7]

i thought it was founded on freedom and pursuit of happiness?

most of the founding fathers were not christian, but deist. abe lincoln even rejected organized religion. that "founded on christian beliefs" is just a myth made up by people. it is true that a majority of people were christian, but the major politicians of the revolution were not christian.

Abe Lincoln was not one of our Founding Fathers.

It is obvious how you haven't read any of the founding documents. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to type such an idiotic statement. It appears that you are just spitting out what you have learned in your local college class.

Who would you consider to be the "major politicians" of the Revolution?

John Adams (Unitarian, protestant denomination),

Ben Franklin (Christian, shortly before he died he wrote his "creed" which can be found here: Franklin (http://www.questioningchristian.com/2004/11/benjamin_frankl.html)

Thomas Jefferson (Deist, believed in the existence of God by observations of his surroundings. While his thought process may have differed from the other Founders when it came to religion; they all agreed on one thing - freedom of religion. "I am a REAL Chrisitan (http://christianparty.net/tjchristian.htm) Jefforson's Deism (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_2.html)

Alexander Hamilton (Christian - as writer of 2/3ds of the Federalist Papers, he was the most prominent of the Founders. He wasn't shy about the Lord he served either. Hamiltons Faith (http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/hamilton.html)

John Hancock (Unitarian as well, professing Christian)

Francis Lightfoot Lee (Angelican, professing Christian)

Those are the few i can name off the top of my head. Feel free to dig around and find a list of the 55 or so and look for yourself. Read letters between these guys - see for yourself man. When you say "this country was founded upon whatever..." exactly what does that mean? A "founding" is "to set up or create, especially with the interest of continued excellence." Well, their faith in a God and Christian Principles is obvious in our country's Constitution.

-jonathan

[BanginJimmy]

Now that's a cop out. How do you support that? You got proof? That's a large statement to be throwing around. :no:

Not a cop out at all. I wish I could get an accurate number for you, but the vatican hasnt released the numbers of people killed during the crusades, during the slaughtering of the Templar Knights, the Salem which trials, or the many conflicts in the middle east.

Just in the last 8 years the US has suffered nearly 8000 deaths in the name of religion.

[ahabion]

Not a cop out at all. I wish I could get an accurate number for you, but the vatican hasnt released the numbers of people killed during the crusades, during the slaughtering of the Templar Knights, the Salem which trials, or the many conflicts in the middle east.

Just in the last 8 years the US has suffered nearly 8000 deaths in the name of religion.

I'd agree that religion was used as a tool for warfare. We've seen it since the beginning of civilized man. But let's be honest here, men (aka we) have used religion as the tool, not religion itself. We go to war professing that its a Holy War or it's a war to cleanse the world of the wicked... truth be told, its as much as us going to war claiming we're going to war against the threat of weapons of mass destruction... Til this day, I don't think they've found any nuclear or biological weapons in Iraq, but yet it was a legitimate excuse at the time. Men have used their personal agendas to push these wars but in the name of something else. ALL wars can pretty much be linked to a difference in belief systems... be it religion, democracy, or any other form of imperialism.

[BanginJimmy]

I'd agree that religion was used as a tool for warfare. We've seen it since the beginning of civilized man. But let's be honest here, men (aka we) have used religion as the tool, not religion itself. We go to war professing that its a Holy War or it's a war to cleanse the world of the wicked... truth be told, its as much as us going to war claiming we're going to war against the threat of weapons of mass destruction... Til this day, I don't think they've found any nuclear or biological weapons in Iraq, but yet it was a legitimate excuse at the time. Men have used their personal agendas to push these wars but in the name of something else. ALL wars can pretty much be linked to a difference in belief systems... be it religion, democracy, or any other form of imperialism.


I never said religion was the cause for killing, I said that they were killed in the name of religion. Whether or not it was legitimate is not the least bit important to my point.

Karl Marx said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" and he was correct. Think of all of the conflicts in the middle east that are centered only on religion. That is only the current crop. Go back a thousand years and those conflicts are FAR more bloody.

[Mik2006]

Here's my few thoughts.


The government now and government way back in the days were two different things. there is human government and Jehovah's government. As time goes by things are gonna get much worse, but the devil want's to use the name of God to vandalize his name to make it harder for people to believe in him. But all i know is that if you seek him you will find him. If not you won't.


Just read the bible thoroughly and pray and try to put some of his commands to use, it's hard but not impossible, just have faith. As for churches and stuff, you just have to find out witch one is actually speaking the truth of the bible and not just trying to collect your money.

[BABY J]

LOL at people who say "God speaks to them". WOW - what a mind fuck.

God speaks to you? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? Do you REALLY think you are that special that "God" is going to take time out of his day to speak to you? Furthermore -- are that important that you have the "stuff" required to 'hear' from such a being? Your head would fucking exlplode.

This kinda thought is the VERY thing that pisses me off about bible thumpers. MAYBE "God" gave you a brain and common damn sense to figure shit out on your own so he doesn't HAVE to speak to you in that "very small voice". You're the type of person that says shit like "I'm not gonna worry about my mortgage... I'm just gonna turn it over to "God" -- he will fix it! LOL. I'll tell you what -- do that next month and tell me what happens. If there is a God, it's NOTHING like we see it presented in Christianity -- and he is looking down looking at the people who are praying for their neighbor thiking "WHAT THE FUCK!!? I've blessed you with more smarts and adaptability than any being on the planet, yet you ungrateful FUCKS are still looking up to me asking me for shit and really think I have time to help you think about your mortgage. YOU help your neighbor -- turn to EACH OTHER, NOT ME dorks."

So you had seizures and they stopped --- God MUST be good right? Well isn't that some selfish shit right there if I ever heard it. There are ALSO people who never had seizures and just MAGICALLY started having them and keeled over and died on the spot. There are ALSO kids getting pimped and raped in alleys asking for invisible help from "God" that never arrives. "God" is SOO good - let me tell you.

The bottom line is this --- you don't get what you want in life -- you don't even always get what you deserve - you get what you get.

[Mik2006]

LOL at people who say "God speaks to them". WOW - what a mind fuck.

God speaks to you? WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? Do you REALLY think you are that special that "God" is going to take time out of his day to speak to you? Furthermore -- are that important that you have the "stuff" required to 'hear' from such a being? Your head would fucking exlplode.

This kinda thought is the VERY thing that pisses me off about bible thumpers. MAYBE "God" gave you a brain and common damn sense to figure shit out on your own so he doesn't HAVE to speak to you in that "very small voice". You're the type of person that says shit like "I'm not gonna worry about my mortgage... I'm just gonna turn it over to "God" -- he will fix it! LOL. I'll tell you what -- do that next month and tell me what happens. If there is a God, it's NOTHING like we see it presented in Christianity -- and he is looking down looking at the people who are praying for their neighbor thiking "WHAT THE FUCK!!? I've blessed you with more smarts and adaptability than any being on the planet, yet you ungrateful FUCKS are still looking up to me asking me for shit and really think I have time to help you think about your mortgage. YOU help your neighbor -- turn to EACH OTHER, NOT ME dorks."

So you had seizures and they stopped --- God MUST be good right? Well isn't that some selfish shit right there if I ever heard it. There are ALSO people who never had seizures and just MAGICALLY started having them and keeled over and died on the spot. There are ALSO kids getting pimped and raped in alleys asking for invisible help from "God" that never arrives. "God" is SOO good - let me tell you.

The bottom line is this --- you don't get what you want in life -- you don't even always get what you deserve - you get what you get.


If you were talking about me talking to god, i never talk to god before. I said as long as you seek him you will find him. No need to get all worked up.

[Starrfire]

All religion is retarded. Some more ludicrous than others. But the human mind is a very powerful tool. Sometimes the best medicine is positive thinking. Look it up, you'll get better just because you have the will to. Give yourself more credit. If you want to give all the glory to your imaginary friend then by all means go ahead. Have you even thought of Christianity at all. There is some magical devil that sits around thinking of bad shit to do to you all day. Yeah right. Who determines what is right and wrong? Moral and immoral? In the end, no matter what you think about your religion, I know just as much about the after life as you do. NOT A GOD DAMN THING!!!(Samual L. Jackson voice lol)

[Paul]

Religion to me is like a virus... When you are a child American Society plants seeds of fear in you to slowly turn you into a sheep. Do not question - Do not live; In God we trust and so shall you! OBEY!

It is astonishing the people religion still controls to this day.

[BABY J]

A-fucking-men.

And my rant above was the watered-down verison --- don't get me going FOR REAL. LOL

[ahabion]

Religion to me is like a virus... When you are a child American Society plants seeds of fear in you to slowly turn you into a sheep. Do not question - Do not live; In God we trust and so shall you! OBEY!

It is astonishing the people religion still controls to this day.

Interesting you would say that because I tend to think that the opposite is true. Society plants into the minds of children the theories of evolution or the big bang but not religion or creationism. From there, its up the parents to how they want to bring up their kids on the home front. Even as a Christian myself, I think I know almost equal amounts of non-believers compared to Christians or believers of another faith. Atleast that is my personal observation.

Simply put, don't blame society for what your parents should or shouldn't have done. Nor should you blame your parents for what society taught or failed to teach you. Rather look in the mirror and find out where you've failed to show up, then you can analyze from there what needs to be done next.

Everyone has faith in something, the question is simply in what? Yourself? Education? God? Buddha? The Pope? Obama?... Everyone has faith.

[Paul]

Interesting you would say that because I tend to think that the opposite is true. Society plants into the minds of children the theories of evolution or the big bang but not religion or creationism. From there, its up the parents to how they want to bring up their kids on the home front. Even as a Christian myself, I think I know almost equal amounts of non-believers compared to Christians or believers of another faith. Atleast that is my personal observation.

Simply put, don't blame society for what your parents should or shouldn't have done. Nor should you blame your parents for what society taught or failed to teach you. Rather look in the mirror and find out where you've failed to show up, then you can analyze from there what needs to be done next.

Everyone has faith in something, the question is simply in what? Yourself? Education? God? Buddha? The Pope? Obama?... Everyone has faith.

I think it is becoming less/less christian specially in metropolitan areas, but i went to elementary/middle school in TN and it was far from open minded. evolution is taught b/c it is science; creation has no place in modern science teachings where it has been mentioned is nothing more than Religious Reich trying to control society. It is much like adding "one nation under God" to our pledge or "in God we trust" to our money. What ever happened to separation of church and state?

I have to say my family was lucky b/c my parents walked away from church a long time ago - they allowed us to explore what we thought was the right path for us, but in knowing that i still grew up seeing far more Christian injection than non Christian.

[RL...]

I think it is becoming less/less christian specially in metropolitan areas, but i went to elementary/middle school in TN and it was far from open minded. evolution is taught b/c it is science; creation has no place in modern science teachings where it has been mentioned is nothing more than Religious Reich trying to control society. It is much like adding "one nation under God" to our pledge or "in God we trust" to our money. What ever happened to separation of church and state?

I have to say my family was lucky b/c my parents walked away from church a long time ago - they allowed us to explore what we thought was the right path for us, but in knowing that i still grew up seeing far more Christian injection than non Christian.

Church and state are supposed to be seperate but unfortunately, our gov. fuks that up along with almost every other thing they attempt.

My mother, a christian, also allowed me freedom to think for myself and find my own beliefs and to live life with a truly open mind.

i think ppl that have faith in religion, whether it be any religion, are at the very least partially blind to the truth and to having the ability to look at things unbiased and outside the box. Most believers have been so conditioned that they're faith is right they completely ignore and dismiss any type of oposing point of view or idea. With that ignorant mindset how can one educate oneself and truly embark on a quest to educate oneself?

btw paul, I met you @ the audi meet, nice to start putting some faces with names. :cheers:

[BABY J]

^^^ Wow. Amazing. It's like you have a brain in your head and are like ... USING it to construct coherent thought. That's hot.