Obama Pushes Out Wagner

[Alan®]

UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE. Since when does the White House get to pick who runs a company.

[NAMNORI]

Since the white house has a good amount of stake in the company now they get to pull more strings on who the top dawg is. It's gonna be this way for a while. They gave the auto industry how much? Yeah they call the shots now, get used to it.

[AirMax95]

Since the white house has a good amount of stake in the company now they get to pull more strings on who the top dawg is. It's gonna be this way for a while. They gave the auto industry how much? Yeah they call the shots now, get used to it.

Boom, that's it right there. I don't like idea of have the gov't run companies, but they are in a shitter. I still feel that at qualified team of consultants should have been put in place to re-eval the company when the bailout check was written. Not saying that all the current exec's are to blame, but the the overal performance points to the big wigs. Henderson now has the big task of presenting a plan in 60 days to steer GM back on track.

The CEO 9 out of 10 times sets the tone for big and small companies. In this case, there probably was not a big change from the from good ole Rick to change the mindset of the company (in the eyes of the gov't or taxpayers). So, as with any big corp, it's time to filter down mass change. Expect to see Henderson come in and make more power moves to get them on the right track.

BTW: Christian Streiff lost his job too :eek:

[Bballjamal]

The gov't bought out a lot a companies in the last three years. Especially when reports of company bankruptcy came into play. They offered their assistance in return for stock shares or just out right bought them out.

[preferredduck]

Since the white house has a good amount of stake in the company now they get to pull more strings on who the top dawg is. It's gonna be this way for a while. They gave the auto industry how much? Yeah they call the shots now, get used to it.

they also own like 80% of AIG, where is my F*cking insurance. lol there will prob be some incetive to buy gm cars soon. i'll bet it's the first model with a mileage tracker on it. ohh wait on-star is already there. look into the mileage tax being expereminted with for possible use. this would be a greenhouse gas tax and several states are playing with it for the fed.

[TypeRPersonality]

UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE. Since when does the White House get to pick who runs a company.

They don't, but they get to decide who doesn't run the company since GM is in need of more money.

[eraser4g63]

Since when was it the government's job to interfere with free markets?

[AirMax95]

Since when was it the government's job to interfere with free markets?

When they give you an ass load of bailout money b/c you can't seem to run it yourself.

[preferredduck]

When they give you an ass load of bailout money b/c you can't seem to run it yourself.

it'll just be the new gov't car for sale kind of like the gov't peanut butter from back in the day. we might finally see some "ground breaking" new technology that has been locked away for years for better mpg etc. the cars back in 1913 got 24mpg, a 91 civic hatch dx gets 40, we have gone backwards and it's on purpose. my 10 yr ild car gets better mpg than a new one, now thats bad.

[AirMax95]

it'll just be the new gov't car for sale kind of like the gov't peanut butter from back in the day. we might finally see some "ground breaking" new technology that has been locked away for years for better mpg etc. the cars back in 1913 got 24mpg, a 91 civic hatch dx gets 40, we have gone backwards and it's on purpose. my 10 yr ild car gets better mpg than a new one, now thats bad.

That is fine and well, but I am sure the gov't wants them to survive for 2 reasons:

1. Their money back
2. Jobs for the people

[eraser4g63]

When they give you an ass load of bailout money b/c you can't seem to run it yourself.

Let me rephrase; when did it become the american tax payers responsibility to " Bail out" companies that can't stay afloat on their own. I Feel bad for the people that will loose their job but, as is the norm chances are someone will buy them out. Where was the US Gov't when Tandy corp shat itself, or when the mom and pop store went under? I understand this is a much grander scale but but putting a band aid on an abscessed tooth does not fix it. It just hides the rotting flesh underneath. Just my opinion.

[TheGodfather]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b344/jediryan22/Obama-Communism.jpg

You should be scared. I sure as hell am.

[AirMax95]

Let me rephrase; when did it become the american tax payers responsibility to " Bail out" companies that can't stay afloat on their own. I Feel bad for the people that will loose their job but, as is the norm chances are someone will buy them out. Where was the US Gov't when Tandy corp shat itself, or when the mom and pop store went under? I understand this is a much grander scale but but putting a band aid on an abscessed tooth does not fix it. It just hides the rotting flesh underneath. Just my opinion.

Good point, but no firm or entity stepped up to help the automakers that ASKED for assistance (that I recall, but I could be wrong). I am sure that if there were firms that knew they could make good off loaning money to GM, they would have.

Don't get me wrong, I was torn on the bailout of the automakers. The blow that would have laid on the U.S. was grand, yet the taxpayers are responsible for footing the bill (and the high salaried execs pay).

The industry needs a reconstruction from the ground up, as well as the companies.

[EJ25RUN]

You should be scared. I sure as hell am.

Quoting Nikita Khrushchev?

You know it was his administration that contemplated a bomb that would destroy the world if communism was to ever fail in the Soviet Union?

[AirMax95]

Quoting Nikita Khrushchev?

You know it was his administration that contemplated a bomb that would destroy the world if communism was to ever fail in the Soviet Union?

Ya, people take words from anywhere, but really don't pay attention to the root.

I don't see communism coming at all. IF it was Obama's goal to induce a communist state, he would be assasinated ASAP (I would rather see impeachment, but people are crazy). This is America, not gonna happen. The balance in the country is off, due in part to our greed and arrogance.

I like Obama, but if commi shit was going down, he has to go.

[Vteckidd]

well its a circular argument IMO

we shouldnt have given them money in the first place, but now that we have, there really isnt a precedent for this. What scares me is the proposals Geittner is asking for allowing to limit bonuses, pay, etc for companies NOT receiving money.

If the govt can step in an overthrow a CEO , what do they want to do next?

That is what scares me. Wagner should have been let go, but then again, his own board should have fired him.

[AirMax95]

Yeah, that proposal should be shot to hell. It is not the gov't place to step in like that. In GM's case, the gov't ownz them, lol.

If a company can't see that times are rough and precautionary measures need to be put in place JUST IN CASE, then they should fail.

[Total_Blender]

we might finally see some "ground breaking" new technology that has been locked away for years for better mpg etc. the cars back in 1913 got 24mpg, .

If you think a car from 1913 that gets 24mpg would be a step forward... have I got a deal for you...

http://www.group25.org/gallerypics/2006-00-04b.jpg

Now mind you it has a top speed of 35 so you can't get it on the highway. It'll accelerate from zero to top speed in... about 4 hours. And theres no heat or A/C so you wouldn't want to drive it in extreme temperatures. And no roof so forget about driving in the rain. And theres a hand crank starter that could potentially rip your arm off. Oh, and did I mention the cable operated brakes. :cheers:

I don't see the use in asking Wagner to step down if the #2 is just going to take over. It'd be like getting rid of Bush and having Dick Cheney in power. It could end up worse than before. IMO they should bring in somebody new.

[BanginJimmy]

Those cars from 1913 also used leaded gas which is FAR more efficient than unleaded. That car from 91 would also not get 40mpg today, as back in 91 when you bought 10 gallons of gas you got 10 gallons of gas. Today you buy 10 gallons of gas you get about 7 gallons of gas, a gallon of ethanol, and 2 gallons of additives.


As for GM, they had no right to step in. GM would actually benefit HUGELY from bankruptcy as they could finally dump the parasitic union contracts and actually start worring about making cars again. As I have said before, simply dropping the retirment from 95 to 80% would give GM ~50B in additional cash on a yearly basis. That would more than make up for any losses they are seeing now.

[nreggie454]

it'll just be the new gov't car for sale kind of like the gov't peanut butter from back in the day. we might finally see some "ground breaking" new technology that has been locked away for years for better mpg etc. the cars back in 1913 got 24mpg, a 91 civic hatch dx gets 40, we have gone backwards and it's on purpose. my 10 yr ild car gets better mpg than a new one, now thats bad.

A big factor in the reasons why cars don't get as good gas mileage as they did 10 years ago is that they are a lot heavier due to added safety regulations. For example, a quick Google search told me that a 1992 Civic CX hatchback weighs in at 2094lbs, while a 2009 Civic weighs in at roughly 2600lbs. That is 500lbs of dead weight, and that is a lot more work for a small I4.

[BanginJimmy]

A big factor in the reasons why cars don't get as good gas mileage as they did 10 years ago is that they are a lot heavier due to added safety regulations. For example, a quick Google search told me that a 1992 Civic CX hatchback weighs in at 2094lbs, while a 2009 Civic weighs in at roughly 2600lbs. That is 500lbs of dead weight, and that is a lot more work for a small I4.


Good point, I didnt even think of the weight issues. You can also add in emissions standards to that equation.

[TheGodfather]

Quoting Nikita Khrushchev?

You know it was his administration that contemplated a bomb that would destroy the world if communism was to ever fail in the Soviet Union?

The quote he said is very true.

I don't know how anyone cannot see communism is the eyes of obama, but it starts with him taking over car companies. Next thing you know, you can't own a certain brand of TV. It starts slowly, as the quote that you ignored based on who said it stated, and then all of the sudden we have communism.

obama is a socialist pig. Once the liberals realize they elected a farce and a commie, they'll take him down.

[AirMax95]

The quote he said is very true.

I don't know how anyone cannot see communism is the eyes of obama, but it starts with him taking over car companies. Next thing you know, you can't own a certain brand of TV. It starts slowly, as the quote that you ignored based on who said it stated, and then all of the sudden we have communism.

obama is a socialist pig. Once the liberals realize they elected a farce and a commie, they'll take him down.

:blah: :blah: :blah:

Taking over a car company? Sure he is.....or is it they.....hmmm conspiracy.

[preferredduck]

Those cars from 1913 also used leaded gas which is FAR more efficient than unleaded. That car from 91 would also not get 40mpg today, as back in 91 when you bought 10 gallons of gas you got 10 gallons of gas. Today you buy 10 gallons of gas you get about 7 gallons of gas, a gallon of ethanol, and 2 gallons of additives.


As for GM, they had no right to step in. GM would actually benefit HUGELY from bankruptcy as they could finally dump the parasitic union contracts and actually start worring about making cars again. As I have said before, simply dropping the retirment from 95 to 80% would give GM ~50B in additional cash on a yearly basis. That would more than make up for any losses they are seeing now.

i hate ethonol, ever since they introduced it my SI has got less mpg than before, used to get 350 miles to a tank, now 300 if im lucky. the point is there have been cars that still get better mpg than new cars, my hatch in my sig gets close to 40mpg, and my 10yr old si gets 31mpg and a new si gets 29hwy mpg. ethanol sux ass and needs to go, it robs power and fuel economy b/c some corporate asshole said it was good. i and many other people noticed the change after it was required in gas. yes the cars are heavier now than 10yrs ago. we need to find a good weight comaprison for that one.

[NAMNORI]

Why would it be a conspiracy theory when we know for a fact that the government now owns gm and chrysler, and they also own aig and the rest of the fucking companies that decided to take the hand outs. Hmmmm, yep that's a conspiracy sure is. Not everything that we complain about or discuss in here is a conspiracy!

[eraser4g63]

^^ The funny thing about this whole situation is that this is a conspiracy theorist dream come true, almost better then the Kennedy assassination.

Like I said the Gov't had no right to step in and give money to any corporation. It violates our free market and ruins capitalism. What ever happened to survival of the fittest? If no one wanted to loan them the money to prolong the inevitable then why should we the taxpayers have to. Like i said earlier it would suck for all those people to loose their jobs but truth be told it would be alot easier for those people to find jobs then it is going to be for us to help pay off those loans and then those people find jobs because honestly I don't foresee the big three or any corp. that got bail out money holding up their end of the bargain.

[Total_Blender]

Detroit is already racked with unemployment. If you increase their unemployment from 20% up to about 80%, what then? It's not so simple as "find another job" when GM or their parts suppliers like American Axle are the ONLY jobs to be had.

Thats like cutting off an entire state. And it would end up costing the gov't anyway as those laid off auto workers become part of the welfare system.

[preferredduck]

Why would it be a conspiracy theory when we know for a fact that the government now owns gm and chrysler, and they also own aig and the rest of the fucking companies that decided to take the hand outs. Hmmmm, yep that's a conspiracy sure is. Not everything that we complain about or discuss in here is a conspiracy!

it makes you wonder why a lot of places gave the money back and said we really didn't need it after a couple months. healthy banks even took the $$, but when the word nationalize came out of DC a lot of peopl gave it back.

[ahabion]

Why would it be a conspiracy theory when we know for a fact that the government now owns gm and chrysler, and they also own aig and the rest of the fucking companies that decided to take the hand outs. Hmmmm, yep that's a conspiracy sure is. Not everything that we complain about or discuss in here is a conspiracy!

Wait a minute.... IF the government owns GM, Chrysler and AIG, doesn't that mean that WE own GM, Chrysler and AIG??? I mean seriously, the government and Barack work for us... doesn't he?

I've seriously contemplated on running for Senator... serve 2 years and then call it a day! Yay, retirement for LIFE! What would I care what else happens... I'm set... I got mine!

Dang government, time to start setting laws in place that actually affect their lives too instead of just ours.

[AirMax95]

Stop saying the Gov't had no right to step in. These compaines asked for the help! I am pretty sure they were smart enough to understand that the Gov't would have a controlling stake in the company.

Some turned down the money, others gave it back. States are actually turning down the money. Its not like they are forcing it on these entities. Either they find a lender, file bankruptcy, or close the doors.

[eraser4g63]

But you're missing the point. The fact is that the Gov't had no right to step in and help any companies, doesn't matter if they asked for help or not. It tramples on the free market and makes us no better than China or The Former USSRs economy. The only time the gov't should be involved in any company is to stop a monopoly but even then that is questionable. The definition of Capitalism ( thats what the US is supposed to be)=an economic system based on private ownership of capital. Out economy is also supposed to be a free market which is defined as-A free market is a market in which property rights are voluntarily exchanged at a price arranged completely by the mutual consent of sellers and buyers. In a free market, individuals, rather than government, make the majority of decisions regarding economic activities and transactions, or could be defined also as-A market with unrestricted trading of goods, where the prices of goods are determined by supply and demand. These are the principles our forefathers used and expected us to use. It truly Sucks that those folks would loose their jobs, I feel bad for them I really do but they kinda put themselves in the situation they are now by using unions. Also the Automakers could use bankruptcy to help them out of this little pickle they have gotten themselves into. I continue to maintain the opinion of it is not my fault they built shitty cars, they could have based their business models on one that don't suck but they chose to continue to use ones that have been proven to fail time and time again. And now the gov't is backing and helping finance their warranties, but thats a different debate for another thread.

[AirMax95]

The GM had all the resources, analysts, brains, lawyers, etc at their disposal. If they wanted to pull a Chap 11, then they would have. The biggest issue is that to file they would have needed close to $50 billion for the process. Job losses would be astronomical from suppliers, plant workers, and part distributors.

I would have preferred this in a normal economic state:

1) File Chap 11.
2) Have the board rework top level execs
3) Hire a team of consultants to restructure the company wiping all dead weight
4) Renegotiate all contracts (suppliers, union, state restrictions, etc)
5) Remove certain product offerings
6) Freeze all salary/wage increases for 1 year minimum

There are some more things, but there are people who know the 6 things I listed are a dead on approach to correcting their problems. The bailout was not smart on either end, but no one entity can be blamed. Tossing money at a problem w/o a plan is not going to fix it.

[BanginJimmy]

The most significant area of the chapter 11 would be dumping the union. Dont renegotiate at all. GM needs to tell them they can take when they are going to give them or they can find another job. I am sure GM can find plenty of workers that are willing to work an assembly line for $18/hr, a great health care plan, and a 100% match 401k plan.

[NAMNORI]

The most significant area of the chapter 11 would be dumping the union. Dont renegotiate at all. GM needs to tell them they can take when they are going to give them or they can find another job. I am sure GM can find plenty of workers that are willing to work an assembly line for $18/hr, a great health care plan, and a 100% match 401k plan.

Dumping the union would be nice but didn't they back some elected officials and help them get, and maintain office???????????????????

[eraser4g63]

more or less

[SL65AMG]

with these asshole owning all of these huge companies they better not come to me looking for tax money.......





yeah right, i wish





Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Fascist America

[AirMax95]

Dumping unions completely would be a beast move that would cause some serious backlash. I wonder how it would pan out. I just don't see them kicking rocks quietly.

[NAMNORI]

the only rocks they'll be kicking are the small ones while they toss the biggest ones they can at the government officials and thus military when the N.G. is called in.

[CopyRight]

Dumping unions completely would be a beast move that would cause some serious backlash. I wonder how it would pan out. I just don't see them kicking rocks quietly.


Would never happen because some of Obama's biggest backers were the Union workers.

UAW doesn't want to budge and negotiate crap, and they are the ones that are screwing over the Detroit auto makers.

[SL65AMG]

Would never happen because some of Obama's biggest backers were the Union workers.

UAW doesn't want to budge and negotiate crap, and they are the ones that are screwing over the Detroit auto makers.


Fuck the UAW.....




and for some humor - Fuck the NWO

[BanginJimmy]

Dumping unions completely would be a beast move that would cause some serious backlash. I wonder how it would pan out. I just don't see them kicking rocks quietly.


Dumping the union would be extremely difficult because of political interference. I honestly think it would take a united front from all 3 automakers in detroit to be able to unseat them. Even more, I think that under the current administration dumping the union will only lead to MUCH more damaging CAFE and similar standards that will only make the automakers weaker in the long run.

I have a strange feeling that 5 years after the unions are gone that the Big 3 will once again dominate world auto sales if legislation does not further damage them.

[NAMNORI]

But dumping the unions would be a saving grace for the economy in the long run.:2cents:

[SL65AMG]

But dumping the unions would be a saving grace for the economy in the long run.:2cents:


but that wont happen since the same union who is fucking over the auto-makers is the same union who gave the new( oh what a coincidence) man in charge(obama), millions of dollars for his campaign..


sounds a little fishy to me

[NAMNORI]

hell yeah it's as fishy as the buford hwy farmers market. But the unions need to go talk about organized crime!

[WANTED]

Wow!!!!! This discussion is starting to resemble some of the arguments I made in this thread here (http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219774).

Make no mistake, I still strongly believe that GM needs to go. It's a failing company and all this bailout is doing is prolonging the inevitable. The only way to fix it is with drastic action no one is willing to take.

As of present, the situation is as follows:

American Taxpayer:idb:GM

[SL65AMG]

its like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound..... youre gonna bleed out anyways....