OBAMA Seek New Assault Weapons Ban

[Frög]

I wasn't going to post this because I thought someone else would, but since nobody did (don't think so at least)..


The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder (http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6905255&page=1) said today.

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons," Holder told reporters.

Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

"I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum." Holder said at a news conference on the arrest of more than 700 people (http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=6957287&page=1) in a drug enforcement crackdown on Mexican drug cartels operating in the U.S.

Mexican government officials have complained that the availability of sophisticated guns from the United States (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4695848&page=1) have emboldened drug traffickers to fight over access routes into the U.S.

A State Department travel warning issued Feb. 20, 2009, reflected government concerns about the violence.

"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said. "Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across Mexico, but most recently in northern Mexico, including Tijuana, Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez."

At the news conference today, Holder described his discussions with his Mexican counterpart about the recent spike in violence.

"I met yesterday with Attorney General Medina Mora of Mexico, and we discussed the unprecedented levels of violence his country is facing because of their enforcement efforts," he said.

Holder declined to offer any time frame for the reimplementation of the assault weapons ban, however.

"It's something, as I said, that the president talked about during the campaign," he said. "There are obviously a number of things that are -- that have been taking up a substantial amount of his time, and so, I'm not sure exactly what the sequencing will be."

In a brief interview with ABC News, Wayne LaPierre, president of the National Rifle Association, said, "I think there are a lot of Democrats on Capitol Hill cringing at Eric Holder's comments right now."

During his confirmation hearing, Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee about other gun control measures the Obama administration may consider.


"I think closing the gun show loophole, the banning of cop-killer bullets and I also think that making the assault weapons ban permanent, would be something that would be permitted under Heller," Holder said, referring to the Supreme Court ruling in Washington, D.C. v. Heller (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=5256159&page=1), which asserted the Second Amendment as an individual's right to own a weapon.

The Assault Weapons Ban signed into law by President Clinton in 1994 banned 19 types of semi-automatic military-style guns and ammunition clips with more than 10 rounds.

"A semi-automatic is a quintessential self-defense firearm owned by American citizens in this country," LaPierre said. "I think it is clearly covered under Heller and it's clearly, I think, protected by the Constitution."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824

Good thing I bought mine! :goodjob:

[Danny]

here we go again. :(

good thing i bought mine x2

[eraser4g63]

Damn i guess i better go buy mine.

[81911SC]

Didn't see this one coming. O wait, I did.

[Frög]

Didn't see this one coming. O wait, I did.

lol!

[81911SC]

Any gun lovers that voted for Obama should be ashamed of themselves.

[eraser4g63]

On the above note they should turn their guns on themselves.

[Alan®]

All of the following reaks(SP?) of bullshit and just something that can be twisted to make the dems and obama seem like banning assault riffles will actually change anything.


Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

"I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum." Holder said at a news conference on the arrest of more than 700 people in a drug enforcement crackdown on Mexican drug cartels operating in the U.S.

Mexican government officials have complained that the availability of sophisticated guns from the United States have emboldened drug traffickers to fight over access routes into the U.S.

A State Department travel warning issued Feb. 20, 2009, reflected government concerns about the violence.

"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said. "Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across Mexico, but most recently in northern Mexico, including Tijuana, Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez."

At the news conference today, Holder described his discussions with his Mexican counterpart about the recent spike in violence.

"I met yesterday with Attorney General Medina Mora of Mexico, and we discussed the unprecedented levels of violence his country is facing because of their enforcement efforts," he said.

[Frög]

All of the following reaks(SP?) of bullshit and just something that can be twisted to make the dems and obama seem like banning assault riffles will actually change anything.

Sure is, I mean what does this have to do with anything? They are talking about drug cartels getting automatic assault weapons, and these come from the U.S.? Last time I checked, those were already illegal (except very very rare and special cases).. The weapons they are banning are Semi-Automatic Assault rifles, which are obviously different from the automatic ones the drug cartels are getting..


"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said. "Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across Mexico, but most recently in northern Mexico, including Tijuana, Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez."

[preferredduck]

i saw this last week, the thing that is sad is mexico will not give up the serial numbers on the weapons b/c then it will be known that most of thier guns come from mexico. . . go figure. i just can't believe the US is bieng blamed for the drug violence in mexico. can we blame mexico for the americans drug problems, uhh no. this is just another step in a direction to take away arms in america. this makes me want to go buy a good gun when my taxes come in a few days, any suggestions on something powerful, reliable, that amy cost abt $800, lol

[Frög]

i saw this last week, the thing that is sad is mexico will not give up the serial numbers on the weapons b/c then it will be known that most of thier guns come from mexico. . . go figure. i just can't believe the US is bieng blamed for the drug violence in mexico. can we blame mexico for the americans drug problems, uhh no. this is just another step in a direction to take away arms in america. this makes me want to go buy a good gun when my taxes come in a few days, any suggestions on something powerful, reliable, that amy cost abt $800, lol

AK47 for $500 or AR15 for $1500+

They will be banned! Get it now or never!

I say AK, its the most reliable and best assault rifle.. An AR15 fan boy will tell you that the AR15 is more accurate and that the AK's accuracy sucks..

Well, I shoot headshots 29 times / 30 round clip at 30 yards.. Doubt I need anything more accurate..

And I prefer a gun that shoots when I pull the trigger, unlike the AR..

[SL65AMG]

Any gun lovers that voted for Obama should be ashamed of themselves.

well that didnt happen....

[Boosted FC]

Glad I got mine too.

[Paul]

it isn't that big of a deal - what is the need to have an assault rifle? other than possible sport/hobby nothing. if someone breaks into your house your going to pull our your ar15 to hunt them down or your glock?

don't get me wrong i really want an AK47 but life isn't going to end if i don't have one.

[white24d]

Being a gun owner who voted for Obama, this isnt a problem.
I agree with above. WHy do you need an assault rifle? They arent good for anything but making you think you are a bad ass. You can own almost anything in this country, so be proud that this isn't the UK. If you already have one, then you are cool. If you really want one then go get one before the ban happens.
I am content with a pistol for home defense, which is why I own one.

[Total_Blender]

it isn't that big of a deal - what is the need to have an assault rifle? other than possible sport/hobby nothing. if someone breaks into your house your going to pull our your ar15 to hunt them down or your glock?

don't get me wrong i really want an AK47 but life isn't going to end if i don't have one.

Truth. If you have an intruder/home invasion scenario your best weapon is going to be a handgun or shotgun. And the statistics show that you are far more likely to get shot with your own gun than you are likely to shoot an intruder. :2cents:

Personally I think the whole "Home invasion" thing is hogwash. If you know what you are doing (putting valuables/jewlery/checks in a safe, etc) the theives won't be able to get much. They might get your blu-ray of your plasma TV, but really for all the investigation/runaround/etc is it worth shooting somebody over that?

[Vteckidd]

ok, why do you need a Corvette? I mean a Civic will get you to work . But why buy a Corvette? The Corvette is 100 times faster, and much more dangerous, so lets take those away and mandate everyone drives a civic to work with limit of 100hp.

Assault Rifles serve alot of purposes, not just home defense.

By your guys thinking , lets outlaw all 9mm, .40 because a .45 will stop a person much faster than a 9mm or .40.

Statistics prove that AR and people that own them are not criminals. You take away the LEGAL guns, the ILLEGAL ones will still be there. sorry.

This is a power play by the liberals and Holder is full of shit on mexico

[Big Baller]

Any gun lovers that voted for Obama should be ashamed of themselves.

First I didn't vote for Obama...

Second Anyone who votes based on one item a candidates agenda should be ashamed of themselves.

[Total_Blender]

Second Anyone who votes based on one item a candidates agenda should be ashamed of themselves.

:goodjob:

I agree.

I really don't care about the assault weapons ban because I don't see any need for them. Sure, theres sport target shooting etc but you can do all of those things with regular weapons, just not at 300 rounds per minute. And you're not going to hunt deer with an AK. If you can't take down a deer in 3 shots or less you have no business hunting.

It can be said that civilians shouldn't be outgunned by the government and I agree with that in theory, but the last time a group of civilians tried to out gun the feds, it didn't end well...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/SYg_LxRGs9I/AAAAAAAAAZk/-H9K-KtXb7I/s400/apr19_waco_tanks.jpg

[white24d]

I dont agree with the ban at all. He has many other things to worry about , i dont know like the f'n economy. Im really trying to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but he needs to start fixing shit and quit messing other things up.

I dont own an assault rifle , so it doesnt bother me. If I did I might be taking a different stance.

[Vteckidd]

thats the other thing will i be REALLY pissed if they get banned, no, ill be upset and just shows how stupid he is.

but this is the LAST thing he needs to worry about

[Big Baller]

:goodjob:

I agree.

I really don't care about the assault weapons ban because I don't see any need for them. Sure, theres sport target shooting etc but you can do all of those things with regular weapons, just not at 300 rounds per minute. And you're not going to hunt deer with an AK. If you can't take down a deer in 3 shots or less you have no business hunting.

It can be said that civilians shouldn't be outgunned by the government and I agree with that in theory, but the last time a group of civilians tried to out gun the feds, it didn't end well...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_k07pirzBU34/SYg_LxRGs9I/AAAAAAAAAZk/-H9K-KtXb7I/s400/apr19_waco_tanks.jpg

Well we don't agree, do you even know what the second amendment says.
Assault weapons arent fully auto they don't shoot 300 rounds a minute.

Fuck I hat ignorant people. Go educate yourself on the second amendment and what an assault rifle is.

Edit...Fuck you are stupid. Why shouldn't law abiding citizens be out gunning the goverment?

[81911SC]

First I didn't vote for Obama...

Second Anyone who votes based on one item a candidates agenda should be ashamed of themselves.I agree. However, that's not the case. The fact is this A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. The last word here is the issue. "infringed". That' is infringment.
Paul, I agree that they're not the best for home defense and I wouldn't be running anyone down with one. Thing is though, it's not about need. It's the point that it's a right. The 2nd Amendment is a part of the Constitution and if you don't respect one part of it, you don't respect any of it.

[81911SC]

Being a gun owner who voted for Obama, this isnt a problem.
I agree with above. WHy do you need an assault rifle? They arent good for anything but making you think you are a bad ass. You can own almost anything in this country, so be proud that this isn't the UK. If you already have one, then you are cool. If you really want one then go get one before the ban happens.
I am content with a pistol for home defense, which is why I own one.This is a terrible point. Be gald we're not the UK? No shit, that's why we're here. Cause we have Rights, which this is a right by the way. Not to mention these aren't assualt rifles. :rolleyes: What does an AK or AR do different then say a Mini 14? They're not full auto (Unless you go through the proper backgrond checks and get your license and pay the massive taxes) Not to mention you don't know if they are going to be grandfathered in like last time. I'm not saying they won't be but we don't know what they'll try and do.

[81911SC]

Truth. If you have an intruder/home invasion scenario your best weapon is going to be a handgun or shotgun. And the statistics show that you are far more likely to get shot with your own gun than you are likely to shoot an intruder. :2cents:

Personally I think the whole "Home invasion" thing is hogwash. If you know what you are doing (putting valuables/jewlery/checks in a safe, etc) the theives won't be able to get much. They might get your blu-ray of your plasma TV, but really for all the investigation/runaround/etc is it worth shooting somebody over that?
You forgot to mention they can take your life, your daughters life, rape your wife..... there is a few things they can do. :screwy:

[Total_Blender]

. Why shouldn't law abiding citizens be out gunning the goverment?

Wait... what?

If you want to take up arms against the gov't I won't stop you. I'm just saying its not a good idea there smart guy.

The second amendment says "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Not very specific, and there are volumes of Supreme Court cases that debate every implication of that sentence, right down to the capitalization and punctuation. We haven't had State militias for over 100 years (the National Guard is not the same as a militia), so that whole bit about "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State" is out the window.

Since you "hat" ignorant people maybe you should put on one of these yourself... I hear JDM is whats hot on the streets now:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3-h3lqEIcx0/Rw0YuFaAj4I/AAAAAAAABCs/YSpyAoMeUVI/s320/poop+hat.jpg

[81911SC]

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

* Thomas Jefferson

[Total_Blender]

You forgot to mention they can take your life, your daughters life, rape your wife..... there is a few things they can do. :screwy:

Why would someone break into a house to do that though? You are far more vulnerable when you are away from home (i.e. carjacking) Not saying it doesn't happen, but sexual assault/abduction/etc is far more likely to happen outside the home.

And if it did happen in the home, again, a handgun or shotgun would be your best defense.

[white24d]

This is a terrible point. Be gald we're not the UK? No shit, that's why we're here. Cause we have Rights, which this is a right by the way. Not to mention these aren't assualt rifles. :rolleyes: What does an AK or AR do different then say a Mini 14? They're not full auto (Unless you go through the proper backgrond checks and get your license and pay the massive taxes) Not to mention you don't know if they are going to be grandfathered in like last time. I'm not saying they won't be but we don't know what they'll try and do.


Its a perfect point. I was just comparing the two. If you wanna live in a country with virtually no weapons then move to the UK. Mini 14 , ar , ak, sks who cares.
I like guns have no issues with them, except when they end up in stupid peoples hands.

[Total_Blender]

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

* Thomas Jefferson

If you scare them enough they might just give you a Caribbean vacation. I hear the waterboarding in Guantanamo bay is excellent this time of year.

http://www.lovinggod.org/TheRock/Images/Gallery/images/matt-west-wakeboarding_jpg.jpg

:crazy:

[81911SC]

Why would someone break into a house to do that though? You are far more vulnerable when you are away from home (i.e. carjacking) Not saying it doesn't happen, but sexual assault/abduction/etc is far more likely to happen outside the home.

And if it did happen in the home, again, a handgun or shotgun would be your best defense.It's not about why. Criminals do not need logic when attempting a robery. What if they just came to kill you? Or a family member? We're not discussing which is a better hd weapon. We'll save that for another time.

[81911SC]

Its a perfect point. I was just comparing the two. If you wanna live in a country with virtually no weapons then move to the UK. Mini 14 , ar , ak, sks who cares.
I like guns have no issues with them, except when they end up in stupid peoples hands.I don't want to live in the UK. :thinking:
And yes, I care. You make a bullshit point and can't discredit the others. Back up what you were saying with actual facts instead of just Democratic bullshit about assualt weapons. Look at the facts man. What makes the guns differnet then other thousands of semi auto rifles? Besides they have full auto varients. I'm waiting. You don't really believe Mexico is buying our guns legally do you? You'll say no, so I'm assuming you mean they get them illegally. Ok, that's fine. Laws won't stop criminals getting them though. Hence "criminals". So all that does it make it harder for us, the law abiding citizens.

[81911SC]

Alright guys, it was fun. I'll be back later to catch up.

[BanginJimmy]

something that no one has bothered to mention yet is the ban on magazines with more than a 10rd capacity. I have 13rd mags for my glock. I have 30rd for the m4 I am planning to buy soon, those would be illegal (not to mention the rifle).

What do I need one for? Thats easy, sport shooting. I have the glock for home defense. I also want a nice rifle for long shooting. You can look at Australia and UK as a perfect example of what a limitation or ban on weapons will do. Right now, most burglers will wait for you to leave the house to break in because they know you just might be armed. What do you think will happen if they know for a fact that you are not? Well there is a bigger score in waiting for someone to be home so you can get their car and wallet also. You can probably get into that safe they just might have also.

[Total_Blender]

It's not about why. Criminals do not need logic when attempting a robery. What if they just came to kill you? Or a family member? We're not discussing which is a better hd weapon. We'll save that for another time.

I'm not saying that stuff doesn't happen, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to live in constant fear of it. If you really think that its likely to happen, buy a handgun or a shotgun. You can legally get a .50 Desert Eagle or a .500 S&W mag or whatever if you want massive firepower.

Its not so much the pistol grips or the bayonet lugs or whatever that I oppose about assault rifles, its the ease of converting them to full auto. Pretty much any gunsmith can make your legal semi-auto AK into a full-auto in a couple of hours.

Now if somebody breaks into my neighbor's apartment and he freaks out and starts spraying with his AK... I'm in a dangerous situation when those .30 slugs start coming through the walls. :crazy:

[BanginJimmy]

Its not so much the pistol grips or the bayonet lugs or whatever that I oppose about assault rifles, its the ease of converting them to full auto. Pretty much any gunsmith can make your legal semi-auto AK into a full-auto in a couple of hours.

A decent gunsmith can make my glock full auto, so I guess those should be banned too.


I guess we should ban alcohol because someone can illegally drive drunk and kill someone.

I guess we should ban cars that can go faster than 30mph because someone can illegally speed and kill someone.


How far do you want to go with banning something because it can be illegally modified to become more dangerous than its factory designed purpose?

[Paul]

I know you guys keep preaching about 'OUR RIGHTS' well guess what all of these rights just make more problems for us in the end. We as americans have too many fucking rights as it is... so bad we extend rights to people who aren't even American and protect the criminals over the victims.

This isn't civil war time; we don't need arms to keep the Red Coats from invading our farm lands. Owning a gun should be a privilege not a right.

I would love to know the people bitching about this that vote PRO LIFE :goodjob:

[BanginJimmy]

I know you guys keep preaching about 'OUR RIGHTS' well guess what all of these rights just make more problems for us in the end. We as americans have too many fucking rights as it is... so bad we extend rights to people who aren't even American and protect the criminals over the victims.

This isn't civil war time; we don't need arms to keep the Red Coats from invading our farm lands. Owning a gun should be a privilege not a right.

I actually agree with you to a point. My Issue comes with the fact that the first time 1 amendment contained in the bill of rights is sucessfully attacked it will DEFINATELY lead to other attacks against other rights. Maybe next time it is the 4th amendment that is attacked or the 5th.


I would love to know the people bitching about this that vote PRO LIFE :goodjob:

I dont care about this either way. Both sides have a very legitimate arguement so this is one fight that will never go away.

[Paul]

I actually agree with you to a point. My Issue comes with the fact that the first time 1 amendment contained in the bill of rights is sucessfully attacked it will DEFINATELY lead to other attacks against other rights. Maybe next time it is the 4th amendment that is attacked or the 5th.



I dont care about this either way. Both sides have a very legitimate arguement so this is one fight that will never go away.

but it would be quite interesting for someone to support gun laws on the basis of PERSONAL INFRINGEMENT yet vote PRO LIFE :goodjob:

[BanginJimmy]

but it would be quite interesting for someone to support gun laws on the basis of PERSONAL INFRINGEMENT yet vote PRO LIFE :goodjob:


The problem with that is the defination of life. Is a fetus an independant life, or is it an extension of the mother? :???:

[Paul]

The problem with that is the defination of life. Is a fetus an independant life, or is it an extension of the mother? :???:

it doesn't matter how you want to skin the cat it still is PERSONAL INFRINGEMENT - why don't we ban circumcisions b/c its cruelty to children? point being if you want to claim stance due to PERSONAL INFRINGEMENT then you should also be PRO CHOICE. i'm sure reps are having a field day w/ this so i just want to point out the obvious holes in such logic.

[BanginJimmy]

it doesn't matter how you want to skin the cat it still is PERSONAL INFRINGEMENT - why don't we ban circumcisions b/c its cruelty to children? point being if you want to claim stance due to PERSONAL INFRINGEMENT then you should also be PRO CHOICE. i'm sure reps are having a field day w/ this so i just want to point out the obvious holes in such logic.


It is personal infringement if the fetus is not considered to be a living being, but if the fetus is considered a baby then it is not personal infringement.

[SL65AMG]

Truth. If you have an intruder/home invasion scenario your best weapon is going to be a handgun or shotgun. And the statistics show that you are far more likely to get shot with your own gun than you are likely to shoot an intruder. :2cents:

Personally I think the whole "Home invasion" thing is hogwash. If you know what you are doing (putting valuables/jewlery/checks in a safe, etc) the theives won't be able to get much. They might get your blu-ray of your plasma TV, but really for all the investigation/runaround/etc is it worth shooting somebody over that?

you are missing the entire point. who gives a fuck if they steal all of your shit, you shouldn't be worried about that as much as you are to be worried about your family's safety. the point is to keep your family safe!!!!

(insurance companies buy you new shit, they cant buy you a new brother/sister/father/mother/ etc etc.....)

and you say that "statistics show that youre more likely to be shot with your own gun than you are likely to shoot an intruder...." show me these statstics, and not from some government organized propaganda machine.....

are you retarded??? you point the barrel away from yourself...... DUH....

ok in all seriousness.....

thats BULLSHIT!!!


come break into my house and well see who gets shot by my gun.....





and with the "assault weapons",

its peoples choice what kind of guns they want to buy..... its not your place to decide what other people do. PERIOD.

[Paul]

its peoples choice what kind of guns they want to buy..... its not your place to decide what other people do. PERIOD.

there are lots of things the gov decides for us and this is no different. it isn't that big of deal; there is obviously problems w/ assault rifles on the streets. furthermore be glad we can even own a gun; try getting out of the US there are many countries where you can't own a gun... and i'm going to take a stab at it but i'm sure they all have lower gun death rates. :goodjob:

[81911SC]

there are lots of things the gov decides for us and this is no different. it isn't that big of deal; there is obviously problems w/ assault rifles on the streets. furthermore be glad we can even own a gun; try getting out of the US there are many countries where you can't own a gun... and i'm going to take a stab at it but i'm sure they all have lower gun death rates. :goodjob:I wouldn't go that far. Look at D.C. and Chicago's crime rates. CC and handguns are banned there but they are nearly leading the nation. Also, owning a gun is a right but it's also a privledge. Not everyone can get them. People who have earned the right by standing on the right side of the law can. Can't say illegally buy them because that happens anyway and no way to stop it.

[Paul]

I wouldn't go that far. Look at D.C. and Chicago's crime rates. CC and handguns are banned there but they are nearly leading the nation. Also, owning a gun is a right but it's also a privledge. Not everyone can get them. People who have earned the right by standing on the right side of the law can. Can't say illegally buy them because that happens anyway and no way to stop it.

i didn't mean here in the US i meant i'm sure the countries that don't allow gun ownership have less gun fatilities

[81911SC]

i didn't mean here in the US i meant i'm sure the countries that don't allow gun ownership have less gun fatilitiesI know, I was just saying in a smaller scale.

[Frög]

ok, why do you need a Corvette? I mean a Civic will get you to work . But why buy a Corvette? The Corvette is 100 times faster, and much more dangerous, so lets take those away and mandate everyone drives a civic to work with limit of 100hp.

Assault Rifles serve alot of purposes, not just home defense.

By your guys thinking , lets outlaw all 9mm, .40 because a .45 will stop a person much faster than a 9mm or .40.

Statistics prove that AR and people that own them are not criminals. You take away the LEGAL guns, the ILLEGAL ones will still be there. sorry.

This is a power play by the liberals and Holder is full of shit on mexico

Its late, I have to wake up at 5:30am to go to work..

But I read this, and fuck me silly that's a darn good analogy..

[Big Baller]

I don't really have the energy for this right now, Ill just say this.

I don't need the goverement makng any more decisions or taking away any more of my rights....if they want to make changes then they can start giving some more back.

[SL65AMG]

i didn't mean here in the US i meant i'm sure the countries that don't allow gun ownership have less gun fatilities

Britain's crime rate has skyrocketed since the ban on handguns.... explain that one



theres a lot more to owning a gun than "self/home defense"....

do you REALLY think the govt wants to ban guns because it will make us "safer".....fuck no. they could give a shit about the "safety", they just use that as an excuse because it makes you...i mean the sheep, feel all good inside.

[Total_Blender]

and you say that "statistics show that youre more likely to be shot with your own gun than you are likely to shoot an intruder...." show me these statstics, and not from some government organized propaganda machine.....

.

Kellermann AL. and Reay DT. "Protection or peril? An analysis of firearm-related deaths in the home." N Engl J. Med 1986. 314: 1557-60.
Abstract An epidemiological study of all gunshot deaths (N=743) reported in King County, WA from 1978 through 1983 gathered data from medical examiner case files, police records, and interviews with investigating officers. Among the 398 deaths occurring in the residence where the firearm was kept, only 2 (0.5%) involved an intruder shot during attempted entry. Seven persons (1.8%) were killed in self-defense. For every case of self-protecti- on homicide involving a firearm kept in the home, there were 1.3 accidental deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms. Handguns were used in 70.5% of these deaths.


So, as it turns out... you or your loved ones are even more likely to use a gun for suicide than in a successful defense against an intruder. This is not the only article out there (Kellerman alone has at least 3 other studies like this one), and this is just a tiny abstract from the article.

[_Christian_]

The Truth About AK-47 Firepower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgr3kTU68uw)

Glad I got mine already :D

[nreggie454]

LOL at the idea that US gun laws will affect ANYTHING dealing with Mexican drug cartels.

[BanginJimmy]

i didn't mean here in the US i meant i'm sure the countries that don't allow gun ownership have less gun fatilities


Maybe you are right and gun deaths go down, although, but all other foms of violent crime do go up. Murder is one of those violent crimes. If you are dead you are dead, I dont care if you were killed with a gun, knife, or a baseball bat.

Short article I found about Australia.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304

Another article comparing Morton Grove, IL which banned firearms and Kennesaw which required them.
http://www.thebisch.com/archives/2008/10/gun-control-kennesaw-revisited/

[preferredduck]

ok, why do you need a Corvette? I mean a Civic will get you to work . But why buy a Corvette? The Corvette is 100 times faster, and much more dangerous, so lets take those away and mandate everyone drives a civic to work with limit of 100hp.

Assault Rifles serve alot of purposes, not just home defense.

By your guys thinking , lets outlaw all 9mm, .40 because a .45 will stop a person much faster than a 9mm or .40.

Statistics prove that AR and people that own them are not criminals. You take away the LEGAL guns, the ILLEGAL ones will still be there. sorry.

This is a power play by the liberals and Holder is full of shit on mexico

good point, you take way the guns of law abiding citizens and we cannot defend ourselves from the criminals who will still have thier guns

[Frög]

The Truth About AK-47 Firepower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgr3kTU68uw)

Glad I got mine already :D

Good video! :goodjob:

[preferredduck]

Good video! :goodjob:
agreed

[VIP Style]

thats what im saying, its really not that big of deal, if somebody wants something, they will get there hands on it anyways legal or illegal.
it isn't that big of a deal - what is the need to have an assault rifle? other than possible sport/hobby nothing. if someone breaks into your house your going to pull our your ar15 to hunt them down or your glock?

don't get me wrong i really want an AK47 but life isn't going to end if i don't have one.

[BanginJimmy]

thats what im saying, its really not that big of deal, if somebody wants something, they will get there hands on it anyways legal or illegal.


Exactly right. This is why gun bans lead to more crime. Its not like taking a gun away from a legal owner will ever keep any off the streets. All it will do is lead to unarmed law abiding citizens being poweless against armed criminals.

[ahabion]

there are lots of things the gov decides for us and this is no different. it isn't that big of deal; there is obviously problems w/ assault rifles on the streets. furthermore be glad we can even own a gun; try getting out of the US there are many countries where you can't own a gun... and i'm going to take a stab at it but i'm sure they all have lower gun death rates. :goodjob:

Socialism and communism isn't all its cracked up to be.

Start taking away our constitutional rights like owning arms, and they'll start taking away other rights as well. You know when they get a little they want it all... that's just human nature.

Nationalized healthcare is not good either. That means the government will run the show, not independent healthcare practices or insurances. What's that mean for you? That means a bunch of politicians are sitting around a board room, who know nothing about you, reading your medical profile and asking themselves if your [insert any illness/handicap/injury/etc.] is worth spending money on. Then they tell you what doctor you'll see, what price YOU will pay, what procedures will be done, what steps you'll take, what drugs you'll be prescribed, what your post-ops will be, what you'll eat and drink while at home, what follow-up doctor you'll see and what social worker you'll be reporting to... and thats all from nationalized healthcare...

Imagine everything else... all the other basic rights that we have, stripped away from you and the government telling you how to live, what to eat, when to sleep, and worst of all... what car you'll drive... and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Geo!

Let's not take our rights for granted... I think that may be one of the major issues we're seeing.

[Vteckidd]

Socialism and communism isn't all its cracked up to be.

Start taking away our constitutional rights like owning arms, and they'll start taking away other rights as well. You know when they get a little they want it all... that's just human nature.

Nationalized healthcare is not good either. That means the government will run the show, not independent healthcare practices or insurances. What's that mean for you? That means a bunch of politicians are sitting around a board room, who know nothing about you, reading your medical profile and asking themselves if your [insert any illness/handicap/injury/etc.] is worth spending money on. Then they tell you what doctor you'll see, what price YOU will pay, what procedures will be done, what steps you'll take, what drugs you'll be prescribed, what your post-ops will be, what you'll eat and drink while at home, what follow-up doctor you'll see and what social worker you'll be reporting to... and thats all from nationalized healthcare...

Imagine everything else... all the other basic rights that we have, stripped away from you and the government telling you how to live, what to eat, when to sleep, and worst of all... what car you'll drive... and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Geo!

Let's not take our rights for granted... I think that may be one of the major issues we're seeing.
:goodjob:

[preferredduck]

Socialism and communism isn't all its cracked up to be.

Start taking away our constitutional rights like owning arms, and they'll start taking away other rights as well. You know when they get a little they want it all... that's just human nature.

Nationalized healthcare is not good either. That means the government will run the show, not independent healthcare practices or insurances. What's that mean for you? That means a bunch of politicians are sitting around a board room, who know nothing about you, reading your medical profile and asking themselves if your [insert any illness/handicap/injury/etc.] is worth spending money on. Then they tell you what doctor you'll see, what price YOU will pay, what procedures will be done, what steps you'll take, what drugs you'll be prescribed, what your post-ops will be, what you'll eat and drink while at home, what follow-up doctor you'll see and what social worker you'll be reporting to... and thats all from nationalized healthcare...

Imagine everything else... all the other basic rights that we have, stripped away from you and the government telling you how to live, what to eat, when to sleep, and worst of all... what car you'll drive... and I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Geo!

Let's not take our rights for granted... I think that may be one of the major issues we're seeing.


our rights have been stripped away fom us ever so slowy(much faster over recent years) and there is more to come, eventually they will want a full arms ban, but i don't think the peolpe will surrender that easily.

[Total_Blender]

That means the government will run the show, not independent healthcare practices or insurances. What's that mean for you? That means a bunch of politicians are sitting around a board room, who know nothing about you, reading your medical profile and asking themselves if your [insert any illness/handicap/injury/etc.] is worth spending money on. Then they tell you what doctor you'll see, what price YOU will pay, what procedures will be done, what steps you'll take, what drugs you'll be prescribed, what your post-ops will be, what you'll eat and drink while at home, what follow-up doctor you'll see and what social worker you'll be reporting to... and thats all from nationalized healthcare...
.

Replace every occurrence of "government" or "politician" with "insurance company" and that would be a pretty accurate description of what we have now.

I'm all for universal healthcare. Fuck the insurance industry. Yeah, I said it. :ninja:

[BanginJimmy]

Replace every occurrence of "government" or "politician" with "insurance company" and that would be a pretty accurate description of what we have now.

Not exactly. I can still decide to get an elective surgery now, under the universal healthcare plan there will no longer be elective surgery. Also the idea of an independant group to "moniter the quality of healthcare" like is says in the bailout will do nothing more than remove choices of procedures.


I'm all for universal healthcare. Fuck the insurance industry. Yeah, I said it. :ninja:


I cant afford the additional taxes. Just look at hat Obama is proposing already. 634B as a down payment. How long do you honestly think it will take for this to turn into a yearly cost?

[ahabion]

Replace every occurrence of "government" or "politician" with "insurance company" and that would be a pretty accurate description of what we have now.

I'm all for universal healthcare. Fuck the insurance industry. Yeah, I said it. :ninja:

While true, atleast you have independent doctors that you have a selection of to go see. If there is a specialist that is needed, you have the freedom to pick and select a specialist from a list of "in-network" or "contracted" doctors/physicians rather than going to a government regulated doctor who may not even know what the issues are once you get there. When there is competition within the market, there are offers of more value. Once you take away the competition, the value of service or goods goes out the window.

And rather than having a group of bureaucrats deciding my operation or someone else's, I'd rather have a group of medically inclined people like registered nurses or doctors calling those shots within a hospital ER.

Agreed however that I hate insurance companies, but they are what they are... insurance and its a real b**** when you have something that goes down and you don't have insurance. But again, another example of freedom of choice to have or not have insurance.

Just thought about this, but in the event someone along the chain f***s up, you can sue the insurance company or surgeon or what not in today's system... what is there you can do within a government regulated health system? Who do you go after? The Feds? I'm sure there will be some type of regulatory system, but I really don't want government knowing my business more so than they already know.

[81911SC]

Can we get back on the original damn topic?

[ahabion]

Can we get back on the original damn topic?

haha :gay: so sorry.

But just an example of when they take away Constitutional rights, that they'll continue to take more of our rights away that make us America.

[81911SC]

haha :gay: so sorry.

But just an example of when they take away Constitutional rights, that they'll continue to take more of our rights away that make us America.I know that and agree but make another thread.

[Frög]

Can we get back on the original damn topic?

:yes:

Here is mine:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/ll_shprelude_ll/Gun/IMG_1975.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/ll_shprelude_ll/Gun/IMG_1976.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/ll_shprelude_ll/Gun/IMG_1977.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c171/ll_shprelude_ll/Gun/IMG_1978.jpg

I am changing it though, I don't like the front fore grip because the gun is front heavy.. Going to switch to black polymer..

[BanginJimmy]

front heavy isnt all that bad though. It will help you keep it stead during rapid firing.

[Frög]

front heavy isnt all that bad though. It will help you keep it stead during rapid firing.

True, less front lift.. But I like the simplicity of the AK.. At first, I wanted to change every part on it, but now I am almost becoming an AK purist..

Idk, I am not really worried about modding it.. I have it, and that is all that matters right now..

Just waiting on my 2500 rounds coming in.. Then I will be happy..

They are in sealed tin's.. These can be stocked up for decades! :D

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/wolf/wolf_22355FMJTINS.jpg

[BanginJimmy]

I want to pick up an M4 myself. How much for a 2500rd box?

[Total_Blender]

While true, atleast you have independent doctors that you have a selection of to go see. .

Even with a universal healthcare plan I would think there would be HMO's to provide supplemental coverage, and doctors who will still take cash should you decide the gov't plan is not good enough for you.

I think a universal plan would be better for most Americans who are already paying too much for too little coverage to their private insurance. And the millions of part time workers, students, etc who aren't offered private insurance.

And if we did have a good plan for all Americans the employers wouldn't have to shell out for private coverage and have to dick around with the unions (UAW, etc) as much.

[Frög]

I want to pick up an M4 myself. How much for a 2500rd box?

its 640 rds per box, I got 4... Lets just say that it cost more than the gun.. Probably could of bought a M4 for it.. :screwy:

Ammo prices are sky rocketing.. You can't find any and the cheapest in stock now is ammoman.com..

They want $299 for 500rds of Federal and not in sealed tins.. I got Wolf sealed tins.. I did get them at a good price compared to these though.. :eek:

[BanginJimmy]

damn, that place is more expensive than wal-mart for target rounds for my Glock.

edit: Just got back from wally world and bought the last 4 boxes of 40 they had. Is it just me or is it getting really ahrd to find ammo in stock lately?

[Frög]

damn, that place is more expensive than wal-mart for target rounds for my Glock.

edit: Just got back from wally world and bought the last 4 boxes of 40 they had. Is it just me or is it getting really ahrd to find ammo in stock lately?

Ammo is impossible to find..

They are trying to pass a new law that ID's every bullet.. Prices are going to be 10x as much.. Stock up!!!

[SL65AMG]

Ammo is impossible to find..

They are trying to pass a new law that ID's every bullet.. Prices are going to be 10x as much.. Stock up!!!


exactly..... you guys should really look into reloading. if you plan on buying any kind of quantity the its cheaper that way.





24 lbs of powder ( loads about 7000 rounds of .223 @ 24 gr. per round )
$354.00

6000 rounds of 55gr Jacketed bullets
$450.00

3000 rounds of once fired military brass
$347.00

5000 primers
$150-apprx


cost PER round(reloaded): $.27

cost Per round(buy from store-if you can find it):

Bass pro shops - 50 gr remington UMC (40 rds-$23.99) = .60 cents per round
Sportsman's guide.com - 55 gr federal FMJ (150 rds- $82.97) = .55 cents per round

etc etc....




you have to buy a reloading press which is about $250. load 2k rounds and the press had paid for itself and the ammo is still cheaper.

[Frög]

exactly..... you guys should really look into reloading. if you plan on buying any kind of quantity the its cheaper that way.





24 lbs of powder ( loads about 7000 rounds of .223 @ 24 gr. per round )
$354.00

6000 rounds of 55gr Jacketed bullets
$450.00

3000 rounds of once fired military brass
$347.00

5000 primers
$150-apprx


cost PER round(reloaded): $.27

cost Per round(buy from store-if you can find it):

Bass pro shops - 50 gr remington UMC (40 rds-$23.99) = .60 cents per round
Sportsman's guide.com - 55 gr federal FMJ (150 rds- $82.97) = .55 cents per round

etc etc....




you have to buy a reloading press which is about $250. load 2k rounds and the press had paid for itself and the ammo is still cheaper.

You and I have to talk.. I never looked into doing this but I need to now.. Where do I buy everything I need for 7.63x39? And where do I buy the press?

[SL65AMG]

You and I have to talk.. I never looked into doing this but I need to now.. Where do I buy everything I need for 7.63x39? And where do I buy the press?

The press you can buy at bass pro shops or online or at gun shows.

RCBS rock chucker master kit.... comes with powder measure, scale, lube pad, press and a few other misc things. i dont remember exactly..... but its got everything you need.

its not too fancy like some of those Dillon Precision (http://www.dillonprecision.com/) turret presses(which are sweet by the way, youtube them) but its sturdy.... between my dad and I weve put about 50-60k rounds through his rock chucker and its still looks and works great

stay away from Lee presses, my best friend got one and the press itself is decent but the parts like the powder measure and powder scale are cheap POS's. and theyre plastic....



dies you can buy at gun shows or online.... or even at bass pro or other sporting goods stores.


as far as buying components....

Midway USA (www.midwayusa.com)

has tons of reloading stuff and components( brass,bullets, powder etc....)

Hi-Tech Ammunition (http://hi-techammo.com/)

they've got a lot of components too.... just have to look and find what you need.

Pats Reloading (http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/whatsnew.htm)

theyve got mainly bullets and brass as well as a few other things i think.

Widener's (http://www.wideners.com/)

these guys have everything


Powder Valley (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/)

pretty self explanatory, but they do sell other stuff.... i ordered powder and bullets from them....



there is one problem though, 7.62x39 is a real BITCH to find stuff for.

you can ONLY load BRASS or NICKEL plated brass. NO STEEL cased ammo ( i.e.- WOLF ammo)

get yourself a Speer reloading handbook and the rock chucker kit and go from there.....

[SL65AMG]

one other thing, stuff is selling through the roof right now and A LOT of stuff is sold out or on backorder. its better late than never to start reloading, but now its hard to find stuff.....

[afwfjustin]

This country is going to go to shit. Liberals suck.

[BanginJimmy]

I'm going to have to look into re-loading also, but I have heard tons of horror stories about glocks and re-loads. Some say the issues have been resolved, others say they havent. I do know that my book says not to use re-loads in it.

[Vteckidd]

my friend has all the stuff to do reloads, PM me if you want he can do it for you for a small fee

[preferredduck]

While true, atleast you have independent doctors that you have a selection of to go see. If there is a specialist that is needed, you have the freedom to pick and select a specialist from a list of "in-network" or "contracted" doctors/physicians rather than going to a government regulated doctor who may not even know what the issues are once you get there. When there is competition within the market, there are offers of more value. Once you take away the competition, the value of service or goods goes out the window.

And rather than having a group of bureaucrats deciding my operation or someone else's, I'd rather have a group of medically inclined people like registered nurses or doctors calling those shots within a hospital ER.

Agreed however that I hate insurance companies, but they are what they are... insurance and its a real b**** when you have something that goes down and you don't have insurance. But again, another example of freedom of choice to have or not have insurance.

Just thought about this, but in the event someone along the chain f***s up, you can sue the insurance company or surgeon or what not in today's system... what is there you can do within a government regulated health system? Who do you go after? The Feds? I'm sure there will be some type of regulatory system, but I really don't want government knowing my business more so than they already know.


i worked in healthcare billing and collections and at least 33% of insurance claims were denied for no reason, the only ones who finally got itcovered are the one's who fought it for years. my brother supposively owes 14k on a procedure which i made sure everthing wouold be covered, then he was denied by aetna which im appealing and the dr wants a 6 mos payment plan. healthcare in this country was sold to nixon bt john kaiser "we are making too much money, " the next day an hmo was announced instead of some other form of revised healthcare. this system needs major improvements.

[BanginJimmy]

no one is agrueing that the entire system is fucked, but universal healthcare is the LAST thing that would help. Look at how well run medicare is, then I would like 1 person to tell me that that would be ebtter and cheaper than the current system.

[preferredduck]

no one is agrueing that the entire system is fucked, but universal healthcare is the LAST thing that would help. Look at how well run medicare is, then I would like 1 person to tell me that that would be ebtter and cheaper than the current system.

medicare is run like crap, you still have to pay out of pocket 20% and its sad that at least 15-20% of the money paid out is falsy billed by the provider, i personally saw this all the time. a lot of americans who have moved to france love theri healthcare and childcare, and ive heard mixed things on canada and the uk, but hey it's better than nothing at all. i know from talking to travelers from canada they were so scared of getting hurt while in america b/c of the bill. it's gonna be hard to mix the system b/c too many companies make too much money and thats what it boils down to.

[Danny]

I am not sure whats so hard to understand about government. Our Government is shit, our Government employees are shit, our Government programs are shit. Our Government is failing on every single level and every single dept/program. So what happens when we add more shit Government employees, programs, and departments to an already shit Government? You get a shitty Government with shit frosting smeared all over it using a spatula made of shit. And that doesn't taste very good to anyone.

[Frög]

^ lol!

[BanginJimmy]

medicare is run like crap, you still have to pay out of pocket 20% and its sad that at least 15-20% of the money paid out is falsy billed by the provider, i personally saw this all the time.


So why would you want the govt to tell you what doc to goto, how often you may see the doc, and what procedures you should get?

[Paul]

no one is agrueing that the entire system is fucked, but universal healthcare is the LAST thing that would help. Look at how well run medicare is, then I would like 1 person to tell me that that would be ebtter and cheaper than the current system.

Universal healthcare in essence isn't a social program like medicare; they are using buying power to provider better healthcare at a good rate. Healthcare comes down to buying power - rates are determined by that and previous conditions. Only people opting for this healthcare will be using it; if you work for a Fortune 500 company you shouldn't have a damn thing to worry about b/c your healthcare should already be nice, but if you work for a privately owned business like mine then you are probably paying out the ass for OK healthcare (luckily my wife has excellent healthcare for the both of us). This would allow people like me to seek better rates/healthcare; obviously most opposed to this haven't tried buying a plan or insuring their employees before.

I think the real question is why wouldn't you want to have access to better healthcare if you could?

[BanginJimmy]

Universal healthcare in essence isn't a social program like medicare; they are using buying power to provider better healthcare at a good rate.

If it isnt a social program then what would you call it? It sounds to me like the taxpayers are going to paying for a healthcare program to people that cannot afford it. So who is going to pay the employer portion and who is going to pay the employee portion of it(if you think of it as a health insurance program you would get at work)? I know for a fact that I will be paying some portion of it and I just might cancel my insurance through work to take advantage of this cheaper plan. If I am going to pay for it anyways I might as well use it.





Healthcare comes down to buying power - rates are determined by that and previous conditions. Only people opting for this healthcare will be using it; if you work for a Fortune 500 company you shouldn't have a damn thing to worry about b/c your healthcare should already be nice, but if you work for a privately owned business like mine then you are probably paying out the ass for OK healthcare (luckily my wife has excellent healthcare for the both of us).

The bolded area is a complete lie. What about the fact that i will be paying for it? My taxes will go up, or they will create a new tax that i will have to pay to pay for this. Obama said he was going to put a 634B "down payment" on it, this program will cost at least that much on a yearly basis. That comes down to an extra $1811 per human being in this country.

Healthcare is expensive, but this plan will do nothing to change that because it doesnt address a single reason for healthcare being expensive. It doesnt do anything to take care of indigent care as many people will still not be able to affrd this healthcare plan. It does nothing to address skyrocketing malpractice insurance and liabilities.




I think the real question is why wouldn't you want to have access to better healthcare if you could?

Of course I would, but I would also expect to pay more for it also. Just because I want it doesnt mean I can afford it or have any right to it. I want a Rolls Royce, but if I can only afford a Hyundai then thats all I get. At least its not a Geo. Face it, if you can afford the high costs you can get an outstanding healthcare plan. If you can only afford a major medical plan then thats all you get. You dont have a right to a portion of my money just so you can have a better insurance plan that you can actually afford.

[SL65AMG]

I'm going to have to look into re-loading also, but I have heard tons of horror stories about glocks and re-loads. Some say the issues have been resolved, others say they havent. I do know that my book says not to use re-loads in it.

theres nothing different from a normal "factory" bullet to a reloaded bullet to "factory" spec's.....

if its reloaded right there shouldn't be a problem at all....


the problem is your glock. sell that plastic POS and get a real pistol

[BanginJimmy]

the problem is your glock. sell that plastic POS and get a real pistol

I think I'll keep my plastic POS for a while. I did a ton of reading before I made my purchase and other than the re-load issue I heard nothing but good about a glock. I am actually pricing Glock 19's at the moment for some 9mm action.

[Danny]

ya i agree you should be fine running reloads. Of course u may have to find out what she eats best, but i cant imagine there being a reload-wide problem with glocks.

and dont sell your glock. as far as i am concerned there are only a few guns suited for carry/duty: glock, maybe sig, maybe springfield xd and extremely well built (custom usually) 1911s.

I am going to try and make an ammo run this weekend to GA-arms. Need some ammo asap.

[BanginJimmy]

Danny, what do you reccomend for target ammo? I saw the thread in the lifestyle forum and you seem to know you guns. I have been using walmart ammo with no problems and while I know its not the most accurate ammo out there it seems to shoot fine so far. Also .40 ammo has been hard to find until this week. It seems everyone has it right now. I've purchased 400rds in the last 3 days.

[Danny]

Danny, what do you reccomend for target ammo? I saw the thread in the lifestyle forum and you seem to know you guns. I have been using walmart ammo with no problems and while I know its not the most accurate ammo out there it seems to shoot fine so far. Also .40 ammo has been hard to find until this week. It seems everyone has it right now. I've purchased 400rds in the last 3 days.


head over to the lifestyle thread on guns. thats becoming the general gun chat thread lol.. This thread is littered enough with off topic stuff :D

back to Obama being the gun Nazi. :D

[preferredduck]

So why would you want the govt to tell you what doc to goto, how often you may see the doc, and what procedures you should get?

my aetna hmo already told me what to do , denied me for getting trigger point injections which i still really need. thew would not pay for meds early even though occasionally id run out early so it's abt the same as what ive seen. i will tell you this story though, st francis hospital in columbus ga has the best heart dr's in the area. many many people were sent from other hospitals for heart issues to surgery, the ER etc, if they had Cigna ins(and i forgot the other company) they would refuse treatment or send you a hefty bill and deny you financial assistance on a 100k bill. the sad part is when you are insured you are suposed to go to the nearest hospital, and half the time they don't pay, which in turn sends many americans into bankruptcy. the points you make already exist, ins wont pay before 30 days, you have selected "in network" Dr's, and half the time you don't get the treatment you need. last time i had ins and went to the er i asked for an mri due to my pinched nerve and wanted to see why i get certain sysmptoms, denied, cant do it have to get a ct scan instead, then was reffered to a pain clinic for trigger point injections, denied again by ins, hell they didn't even want to pay for physical thereapy. and the bad part is i still have bad neck problems.

[preferredduck]

I am not sure whats so hard to understand about government. Our Government is shit, our Government employees are shit, our Government programs are shit. Our Government is failing on every single level and every single dept/program. So what happens when we add more shit Government employees, programs, and departments to an already shit Government? You get a shitty Government with shit frosting smeared all over it using a spatula made of shit. And that doesn't taste very good to anyone.

not all programs and employees are shit. my mother works for the usda and she busts her ass and the scientists do a lot of good things, but there are several privledged employees who until recently came to work 1 day a week and got full salary, never does any work and is always on the phone, and passes work off on my mother, i can't go into detail but i will tell you this, they are afraid to fire her b/c they are afraid of a civil rights lawsuit, even though most people would get canned in a heart beat.

[BanginJimmy]

And you think that any of that will change with universal healthcare? That laughable.

Maybe you just have shitty insurance. Not your fault, but its not my fault either so why should I fit the bill for it? When I ripped up my ankle I asked for and got an MRI covered by insurance. That alone turned into 4 seperate doc visits and when I can aford the co-pay I will most likely be going back for ankle surgery. I already know it will be covered by insurance I just dont want to spend the $500 for it right now. My insurance isnt all that great, but we keep our premiums down by using the higher co-pays. It will only take 8 months to save that much in the difference in premiums.

You can also go MUCH cheaper than the insuance I use by getting a major medical plan. The one I looked at would only cost $75 a month for me and my wife. It wouldnt cover regular check-ups or regular dentist visits but pick up 80% of total costs between 500 and 2k. Then 100% minus deductable over 2k up to 250K in a year. That plan also could not raise my rates or drop me for any condition that developped while I was covered. I could have also paid about 120 a month and gotten covered to 750K in a year.

[preferredduck]

well my insurance was supposed to be very good but it wasn't. neither solution is really not that great honestly. i do know other countries have way better healthcare than we do, and there are ways to get a more universal system to work, but only if done right(which would not be the case). my copays went up, then you have coins(make sure they don't pop u with that on your ankle). i originally got an mri through a different ins company and founs issues in my neck, but i have really bad flare ups where it feels like more is going on. thats when i want to get an mri to see whats doing all the damage. my ins premium was through work and costs aby $300/mo for just me. sadly i don't think anything will change with healthcare. later down the road 250k for a year may not cut it, trust me i saw several bills for way over that and that was for things you wouldn't expect to cost so much. another reason healthcare is going up is b/c illegal immigrants who come here and have 6 kids in texas, then get food stamps etc and multiply quicker than a colony of rats. the people of this country shoud be in charge of the reform, not the gov't pharma industries, and ins companies.

[81911SC]

it must be hard to start a new thread.

[Vteckidd]

my AETNA coverage for a 28 year old male, who smokes, is $175 a month, it would be $100 a month with dental if i didnt smoke.

I think my copay is $40, and i have like $5000 in coverage a year, after that , Aetna picks up the tab (no more copay)

I have a friend that went to the doc on saturday with NO HEALTH insurance, and it was $115 for the doctor visit and $10 for meds. Thats still CHEAP IMO and if you cant afford it something is wrong. The only place where insurance really matters is specialized treatment, surgery, extensive lab work, etc. But for MOST cases (flu, infections, etc) ANY american can afford it IMO

[ahabion]

it must be hard to start a new thread.

lol I was about to start something new and was in the middle of typing it out when I was like... who really wants to know about healthcare?

Maybe I will type it out haha

[81911SC]

lol I was about to start something new and was in the middle of typing it out when I was like... who really wants to know about healthcare?

Maybe I will type it out hahaI think it would be good. A lot of discussion for sure. :cheers:

[white24d]

watch SICKO.
People have their things against Michael but, that movie is unreal. It was hard for me to watch the whole thing.
Check it out

[preferredduck]

watch SICKO.
People have their things against Michael but, that movie is unreal. It was hard for me to watch the whole thing.
Check it out

agreed on that, hey folks this thread covers a lot of ground, sorry folks we are just carrying on conversation.

[Paul]

If it isnt a social program then what would you call it? It sounds to me like the taxpayers are going to paying for a healthcare program to people that cannot afford it. So who is going to pay the employer portion and who is going to pay the employee portion of it(if you think of it as a health insurance program you would get at work)? I know for a fact that I will be paying some portion of it and I just might cancel my insurance through work to take advantage of this cheaper plan. If I am going to pay for it anyways I might as well use it.
anything the gov spends tax dollars on is a social program - so you use social programs and institutions everyday that are gov funded. is it the same a medicare? no. and everyone is going to have to pay for it... shit my tax dollars go to pay for education... i don't' have kids why should i pay a dime?




The bolded area is a complete lie. What about the fact that i will be paying for it? My taxes will go up, or they will create a new tax that i will have to pay to pay for this. Obama said he was going to put a 634B "down payment" on it, this program will cost at least that much on a yearly basis. That comes down to an extra $1811 per human being in this country. i'm sorry how are your personal taxes going to go up? i haven't seen anything on they raising all tax brackets... i guess you make over 200k a year.


Healthcare is expensive, but this plan will do nothing to change that because it doesnt address a single reason for healthcare being expensive. It doesnt do anything to take care of indigent care as many people will still not be able to affrd this healthcare plan. It does nothing to address skyrocketing malpractice insurance and liabilities. it addresses the cost of healthcare - reforming healthcare is like reforming our tax system you can only make small strides a highly flawed system

[Paul]

my AETNA coverage for a 28 year old male, who smokes, is $175 a month, it would be $100 a month with dental if i didnt smoke.

I think my copay is $40, and i have like $5000 in coverage a year, after that , Aetna picks up the tab (no more copay)

I have a friend that went to the doc on saturday with NO HEALTH insurance, and it was $115 for the doctor visit and $10 for meds. Thats still CHEAP IMO and if you cant afford it something is wrong. The only place where insurance really matters is specialized treatment, surgery, extensive lab work, etc. But for MOST cases (flu, infections, etc) ANY american can afford it IMO

that is ok insurance nothing grand by any means and you would have to look into the exclusions to see what is/isn't covered. it is easy for regularly heathly people to discuss healthcare b/c they don't incur any real cost. try being diabetic or another major illness; better yet how about having a sick child maybe with cancer or lukimia.

everyone should be able to and should have to pay for some form of healthcare.

[BanginJimmy]

anything the gov spends tax dollars on is a social program - so you use social programs and institutions everyday that are gov funded.

But you made my point. If I use these programs I have no problem paying for it.



is it the same a medicare? no. and everyone is going to have to pay for it...

I know Obama has been a little short on details, imagine that huh, but I havent heard how this is going to be any different than medicare. And again, why should I pay for a healthcare plan I am not using? You dont drive my car, do you want to throw in a few bucks per check to help me pay that off? I'm not asking for much, just 4% or so of your gross income.


shit my tax dollars go to pay for education... i don't' have kids why should i pay a dime?

I agree, why should be we pay for schools we dont have kids to send them too. Just like my sis in law who pays out of pocket for private schools. Why should she pay for her neighbor's kids to goto school, then go abck and pay for hers seperately.



i'm sorry how are your personal taxes going to go up? i haven't seen anything on they raising all tax brackets... i guess you make over 200k a year.

No, you havent SEEN anything, but when you add another 634B a year to the budget where do you think that money is going to come from? Once again, Obama has been a little short on details on how is he planning to pay for all of new spending he wants. Remember, he is also supposed to cut the deficit by 50% in 4 years also. I dont think its a very large jump to assume that my taxes will either go up, or their will be a new tax on everyone to pay for this.


it addresses the cost of healthcare - reforming healthcare is like reforming our tax system you can only make small strides a highly flawed system

It does nothing to address the cost of healthcare. All it does is transfer the cost of healthcare to others. That is transfer of wealth, that is socialism. Plain and simply, EVERYONE's taxes are going to at least 50% by them time Obama gets out of office. For those that make over 250K a year, the increase will be about a 100% increase.

[preferredduck]

they are looking at 130 new ways to tax us and business. from property taxes, carbon foot print taxes, and a mileage tax for how much we drive. so basically we will be taxed to death on anything we do. now on nat geos website they have noticed the ice caps on mars are also melting, along with a moon around jupiter etc, so it seems the whole solar system is getting warmer along with the earth. we are getting close to the center of our galaxy(kind of like the equator on earth). so basically carbon taxes are bs if thats the case. our tax money goes to pay on the interest we borrow from the world bank so the more taxes the better for them.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

very interesting articele, are you telling me our SUV's are causing problems on mars too.

[§treet_§peed]

lol this is funny to me. this is the start of de-arming the nation. setting the stage for martial law. first little steps like this will be taken. then it snowballs into a big move.....

[§treet_§peed]

also all these new taxes that are being put on everything, are in a way the same reason America was started. The ones that came here to find a new home did that because of being over taxed in the first place.

[Frög]

lol this is funny to me. this is the start of de-arming the nation. setting the stage for martial law. first little steps like this will be taken. then it snowballs into a big move.....

Well said.. :cheers:

[preferredduck]

lol this is funny to me. this is the start of de-arming the nation. setting the stage for martial law. first little steps like this will be taken. then it snowballs into a big move.....

yep, recently our attorney general came out saying that the violence in mexico is b/c the US has guns and assault rifles, which is a load of BS. also look into the fairness doctrine, it deals with our 1st ammendment.

OK serious question here, what wouls the range be for killing a deer with a shotgun, say a 12 or 20 guage using the right ammo. i'm looking into either a rifle or shotgun, im on a serious budget and would also like to buy a handgun(non revolver). i have looked at an skyy, or a sccy 9mm sub compact pistol, i just want something reliable that i can use to defend myself. the reason i lean towards a shotgun is the pump action ones that you don't have to reload after every show. any suggestions guys im a noob at guns and when my tax return arrives these are the first items im buying. ok go.

[81911SC]

Why don't you ask in the correct subforum?

[SL65AMG]

lol this is funny to me. this is the start of de-arming the nation. setting the stage for martial law. first little steps like this will be taken. then it snowballs into a big move.....


i would hope that the MILLIONS of guns that have been bought in the last year alone, werent bought just to hand em over to the govt.....

[Frög]

i would hope that the MILLIONS of guns that have been bought in the last year alone, werent bought just to hand em over to the govt.....

Buy an AK! Just have to bury it in your back yard..

[SL65AMG]

Buy an AK! Just have to bury it in your back yard..
way ahead of you....


although if its buried you cant shoot it very well....

[§treet_§peed]

i have a 38 special, a 30/30 rifle, and a single barrel 12 gauge. not much but good enough for me. I would like to have a AK47 like my friend as well as a AR15 and a 9mm like his. but hey shit happens. not trying to be a conspiracy theorist. When i first saw the videos, documents, articles, etc. on all this i laughed. then i started putting the pieces together and seeing how accurate they were as far as the steps leading up to the possibly out come became more real every day.

take a look at these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bH1mO8qhCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK2g0TGaAZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK2g0TGaAZA

[§treet_§peed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4IbxUMWu8Q&feature=related

[§treet_§peed]

hell even mtv says obama is the new hitler lolol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reCpV1YHuYs&feature=related

[§treet_§peed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXfXuk6aWJc&feature=related

[Frög]

way ahead of you....


although if its buried you cant shoot it very well....

But if serious shit hits the fan, you can shoot as soon as its unburied.. No cleaning needed.. :D

[preferredduck]

But if serious shit hits the fan, you can shoot as soon as its unburied.. No cleaning needed.. :D

hell wrap it in a garbage bag, lol, i have seriously thought "how and the hell will they get all the guns" really you know likw 3/4 of the country has guns(prob more) and we damn sure know that is in our constitution. i see there being big problems for them to do so.

[Total_Blender]

hell even mtv says obama is the new hitler lolol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reCpV1YHuYs&feature=related

That ad is meant to raise awareness in the new MTV generation about the holocaust. The real holocaust that happened in Eastern Europe in the 1940's. Not the fake "holocaust" that that creepy fucker Alex Jones and his ZOMGOBAMAISTHEANTICHRIST supporters are trying to push on you.

[SL65AMG]

hell wrap it in a garbage bag, lol, i have seriously thought "how and the hell will they get all the guns" really you know likw 3/4 of the country has guns(prob more) and we damn sure know that is in our constitution. i see there being big problems for them to do so.


they can have my guns if they come for them...... business end first