The End FOr GM Is NEAR........

[Vteckidd]

Unemployment is going to skyrocket



NEW YORK – General Motors Corp. shares on Friday tumbled to their lowest level in more than 70 years, pulled down by a drop in the broader markets and continued speculation about the future of the struggling automaker.

GM shares hit a low of $1.52 in early afternoon trading, before rebounding somewhat to close down 23 cents, or 11.5 percent, at $1.77. The low matched a record set on July 26, 1934, according to the Center for Research in Security Prices at the University of Chicago.

The price is adjusted for splits and other changes.

The Detroit-based automaker's shares have been battered over the past year by worries about the viability of the U.S. auto industry and plunging sales stemming from the industrywide drop in demand for new vehicles.

GM shares were worth $3.50 just a month ago and $25.54 a year ago.

On Tuesday, GM said it would need a total of $30 billion in federal aid in order to avoid filing for bankruptcy protection, up from a previous estimate of $18 billion and including $13.4 billion it has already received. It also said it would need to cut 47,000 jobs worldwide and close five more U.S. factories.

Analysts have said that regardless of whether the automaker receives additional government help or ultimately files for bankruptcy protection, its shares are close to worthless.

Joseph C. Amaturo of Buckingham Research Group said Thursday that a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing at the automaker would be in the best interest of everyone, especially the American taxpayer.

In a note to investors, he backed his "Underperform" rating for the GM and cut his price target to $0 from $1.

Amaturo called GM's restructuring plan "worthless" because it doesn't reduce the company's debt, eliminate its legacy costs or make its labor agreements more competitive.

Also on Friday, GM's Swedish-based subsidiary Saab went into court protection from creditors so that the unit can be spun off or sold.



Wonder what is going to happen if they go into bankruptcy, all contracts are voided, you really think this is going to break the Unions? i hope so. They have nothing to bargain with because no one is making a profit.

Could this be the end of the GM Brand as we know it for good? some are saying yes. There is no one viable or liquid enough to buy them out or take them over. And who would want to.............

GM =Delorean

[Nissan Sean]

i could care less if GM stopped selling vehicles. I mean the only thing they sell that peaks my interest is the corvette. I do feel really bad for all the people that are gonna lose their jobs-That is a big deal. but their product? crap. and i wouldnt mind seeing it go bye bye. Im a Ford guy anyway.

[BanginJimmy]

GM will stick around and get as much money as they want because dems need tounios to survive.

Even if GM was to go into bankruptcy they will stick around, although MUCH smaller. The will most likely dump a couple more lines and stick to probably Chevy, Pontiac and GMC only.
You can count on about 200k jobs lost, mostly union jobs, and another 100k jobs lost from their suppliers.

Now, if they redo the union contract and match the pay structure of corporations like Toyota, they will see an immediate 50B+ in cost savings on a yearly basis. They could dump half of those savings into making vehicles cheaper and the other half into paying down debt.

[civicsol]

gm sucks because they cant compete with the foreign cars. they build cars that most people can't affored. there ugly, gas sucks.

[.::UNKNOWN::.]

hell UAW is feeling the pinch on the big three.... my friend that worked at ford in hapeville that haven't heard from UAW since the plant closed got a letter to remind him his loyalty to them bc he applied at kia.... they wanted to know how far he got in the application progress... my opinion get rid of the union and the big three does better...

[OneSlow5pt0]

gm sucks because they cant compete with the foreign cars. they build cars that most people can't affored. there ugly, gas sucks.

wow..............thats all i have to say

[BanginJimmy]

hell UAW is feeling the pinch on the big three.... my friend that worked at ford in hapeville that haven't heard from UAW since the plant closed got a letter to remind him his loyalty to them bc he applied at kia.... they wanted to know how far he got in the application progress... my opinion get rid of the union and the big three does better...


This is an attempt by the union to organize at the Kia plant. The union knows they have destroyed the big 3 and to keep their power they need to find a new host. This is going to become VERY common in the future.

[One_Bad_SHO]

gm sucks because they cant compete with the foreign cars. they build cars that most people can't affored. there ugly, gas sucks.

kids shouldn't be allowed in the politics section

[FlipKing]

Ford has stated they need no more money for the rest of the year.

[BanginJimmy]

Ford has stated they need no more money for the rest of the year.

Ford execs were alot smarter than the GM ones. They started the layoffs before anyone else and they stashed their cash better. I dont know why, but Ford has also been better overseas than either GM or Mopar.

[Big Baller]

kids shouldn't be allowed in the politics section

I was thinking the same thing

[JITB]

Ford execs were alot smarter than the GM ones. They started the layoffs before anyone else and they stashed their cash better. I dont know why, but Ford has also been better overseas than either GM or Mopar.


ford has always been king overseas compared to Gm, and mopar.


but if Gm does go under, it will be bad for everyone.. and every car company.

[WANTED]

ford has always been king overseas compared to Gm, and mopar.


but if Gm does go under, it will be bad for everyone.. and every car company.

I disagree about it being bad news for everyone. I've always felt that there were brands out there that frankly waste valuable resources that could be going elsewhere. GM is in fact one of those brands.
The company et all is a symbol of outdated American values and work ethic. They continue to empower the unions with the ability to completely control their workplace. I ask myself, have owners, execs, and shareholders lost their balls completely? They allow these bozos to ruin thier companies. THe unions have literally run these companies into bankruptcy. Outrageous wages, benefits, and pensions? With the wages alone, the workers could afford to pay thei own insurance and put into a retirement plan, yet they constantly cry poverty and the owners let them. THe unions have entirely TOO MUCH power.

The bottom line is, the big three NEED to get rid of the unions. This will solve the biggest part of their problems. Then they either need to reduce wages to a more appropriate level or keep them where they are and cut the benefits.

No, GM going under would send a clear message to the other two and the other companies in this country, and that is this. The unions will bring you down. Refuse to change, and you will become extinct.

[EJ25RUN]

gm sucks because they cant compete with the foreign cars. they build cars that most people can't affored. there ugly, gas sucks.

..... Are you always this stupid?

[BanginJimmy]

I disagree about it being bad news for everyone. I've always felt that there were brands out there that frankly waste valuable resources that could be going elsewhere. GM is in fact one of those brands.
The company et all is a symbol of outdated American values and work ethic. They continue to empower the unions with the ability to completely control their workplace. I ask myself, have owners, execs, and shareholders lost their balls completely? They allow these bozos to ruin thier companies. THe unions have literally run these companies into bankruptcy. Outrageous wages, benefits, and pensions? With the wages alone, the workers could afford to pay thei own insurance and put into a retirement plan, yet they constantly cry poverty and the owners let them. THe unions have entirely TOO MUCH power.

The bottom line is, the big three NEED to get rid of the unions. This will solve the biggest part of their problems. Then they either need to reduce wages to a more appropriate level or keep them where they are and cut the benefits.

No, GM going under would send a clear message to the other two and the other companies in this country, and that is this. The unions will bring you down. Refuse to change, and you will become extinct.

Getting rid of the unions is not nearly as easy as you would think it is. The unions have a very strong political backing and that backing allows them to pretty much state their terms for work. If the big 3 dont bend, then the workers strike and no one makes money. Obama is also in favor of card check which would make it easier for workers to organize by eliminating secret ballots.

[Verik]

No, GM going under would send a clear message to the other two and the other companies in this country, and that is this. The unions will bring you down. Refuse to change, and you will become extinct.


It may send a "clear message" but you obviously don't understand the macroeconomic implications of GM failing. Ford and Chrysler need GM to survive so that they themselves can survive. Iirc a month ago or so when the big 3 ceo's were heading to washington, the Ford ceo was quoted as saying he wants all 3 to receive bailout and succeed in weathering the storm. The ripple effect of one of the 3 going under would have horrendous consequences on the automotive supply industry as a whole. He commented on how the financial burden would then be placed on the remaining two and that regardless of which two they would most likely not be able to sustain themselves. This should be interesting. I wonder if a foreign auto conglomerate will pick them up *shrugs*.

one thing is for sure, this is evidence that the UAW has long outlived its usefulness and its original purpose. I think we can all agree that the union is the reason why the domestic automakers have been bled dry of their resources.

[WANTED]

Getting rid of the unions is not nearly as easy as you would think it is. The unions have a very strong political backing and that backing allows them to pretty much state their terms for work. If the big 3 dont bend, then the workers strike and no one makes money. Obama is also in favor of card check which would make it easier for workers to organize by eliminating secret ballots.

Forgive me if this sounds blunt, but nowhere in my post did I ever say it would be easy. I fully expect the UAW to put up a fight, as they make money in this. But if there's no company anymore, where are they going to make money from?
It's the very definition of insanity. Doing the same thing repeatedly but expecting a different result. If they don't back down, there will be no company for them to work at all.

[Big Baller]

Getting rid of the unions is not nearly as easy as you would think it is. The unions have a very strong political backing and that backing allows them to pretty much state their terms for work. If the big 3 dont bend, then the workers strike and no one makes money. Obama is also in favor of card check which would make it easier for workers to organize by eliminating secret ballots.

GM files for Bankruptcy all the union contracts are void, they then get to start over without unions at all, the UAW can strike all they want to but the bottom line is there are plenty of people willing to work on an assembly line for less money than what the UAW was getting paid. Ill be happy to cross that picket line.

[WANTED]

It may send a "clear message" but you obviously don't understand the macroeconomic implications of GM failing.

Which ones would those be? The thousands of lost jobs worldwide? The backlog of unsold cars with no brand backing them? The dealers who no longer have a car that's actually backed by a manufacturer anymore that they have to try to liquidate to maybe break even? The fact that this will be a worldwide problem? The many dealerships that will subsequently go under as a result of this? The many used cars that are now worth jack squat (not that they aren't already, but you know...)? The pensions no longer being paid? The unemployment rate skyrocketing? A huge number of autoloans being defaulted on simply because peoples cars are no longer backed? The further decrease in lending as the result? The subsequent dramatic drop in the global stock markets?
The list could go on and on, but we can both agree that it will be a snowball effect from hell. No, I have a very clear grasp of the macroeconomic implications, and they won't be pretty. But that's the point. It'll be so dramatic, the remainder of the US auto industry, and other industries will have no choice but to change or risk the same extinction. It will also force the politicians to change their way of thinking, as well as their backers. It will hurt them in their only vulnerable place, their wallets. If they won't listen to the people, they will listen to their bank accounts.
The way I see it, it's like a man with a gun to a baby's head. It's hard to believe that anyone would do such a thing until the man pulls the trigger and blows the baby's head off. THen everyone is so shocked and disgusted that they want to bring about dramatic change to make it harder for such a thing to happen.

one thing is for sure, this is evidence that the UAW has long outlived its usefulness and its original purpose. I think we can all agree that the union is the reason why the domestic automakers have been bled dry of their resources.

That is very true.


My response above.

[Verik]

the problem with the baby's head example is in this case, the bullet will travel through and kill several other's in its flight.



http://www.sgvtribune.com/opinions/ci_11755863

a good read related to gm...

[WANTED]

That was a good editorial. Good find.

[ahabion]

GM files for Bankruptcy all the union contracts are void, they then get to start over without unions at all, the UAW can strike all they want to but the bottom line is there are plenty of people willing to work on an assembly line for less money than what the UAW was getting paid. Ill be happy to cross that picket line.

QFT, people have to realize that this is their livelyhood at stake here... they can either get something or get nothing. I for one, would be on that assemply line too if it got me a job to get food on the table for my kids... union or no union.

[preferredduck]

it has already been announced that saturn will no longer exist if nobody buys it, along with saab. hummer is gone, pontiac i think is being dropped aswell. i saw something on this the other night and was like holy crap whole brands are going bye bye. excuse me but they are scaling back pontiac. basically chrysler said if it does not get more govt $ they will file for chapter 11.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123489494750801713.html

[T.S.]

This is really bad. What alot of you guys dont see or feel is the true effects from this. My girlfriend is from Detriot. Her whole family is retired GM. So for her family.. They basically will all be out of jobs and/or have nothing. Its not as simple as you guys want it to be. Yes UAW sux but right now unfortunately we have to keep GM afloat. You guys arent thinking about the many cities and towns that thrive just on GM plants. Were lucky we live in a state that actually has places to work where as a place like detriot you have the big 3 and thats it. Dealerships, small business, families they will all be left with nothing if GM or any of the big 3 shuts down.

[Vteckidd]

GM files for Bankruptcy all the union contracts are void, they then get to start over without unions at all, the UAW can strike all they want to but the bottom line is there are plenty of people willing to work on an assembly line for less money than what the UAW was getting paid. Ill be happy to cross that picket line.
this is why i love you

no homo

[BanginJimmy]

I will say again. If GM or any of the Big 3 go into Chapter 11 the unions will not go away. Politicians will pull every string they can to make sure that the unions stay firmly planted in place.

Again, I think we are jumping the gun. Obama and the rest of Washington will not let any of the big 3 go into bankruptcy. They wont do it to save the corporations though, they will bail out the unions to keep that solid voter base intact.

[matthewAPM]

They will stay. watch and see.

[preferredduck]

This is really bad. What alot of you guys dont see or feel is the true effects from this. My girlfriend is from Detriot. Her whole family is retired GM. So for her family.. They basically will all be out of jobs and/or have nothing. Its not as simple as you guys want it to be. Yes UAW sux but right now unfortunately we have to keep GM afloat. You guys arent thinking about the many cities and towns that thrive just on GM plants. Were lucky we live in a state that actually has places to work where as a place like detriot you have the big 3 and thats it. Dealerships, small business, families they will all be left with nothing if GM or any of the big 3 shuts down.


i do realize the effects.several parts makers/distributors are filing chapter 11, and a lot of work is tied to the auto industry.the thing i don't like is that they did it to themselves. they cut a lot of corners and made some crappy cars, rammed the SUV(Hummer) down our throats that got 8mpg, and only recently have their cars been getting better mpg. im my opinion the company execs gotta go for them to even work. they made tons of money off v8's until gas hit $4.00 a gallon and sales plumetted. and now they are asking for help to stay afloat b/c they rode the wave too long. chrysler is a privately owned company(you cannot buy stock in it) so what do we get if they fail. sounds like they need to be restructed from the ground up and the big fellas at the top gotta go. we have known af global warming for a while now and until recently nobody cared and they pumped out suv after suv. so as i stated a better business model and r&D would have gone a long way a couple of years ago, but greed got the best of them. i do feel sorry for the workers for sure, but the workers can also try to influence the product and bring forth new ideas.

[$9ktt]

F'em let the strongest survive. DARWINISM at it's best !!! I won't buy a car from
the Detroit 3 no time soon...so why should I PAY for their BAILOUT !?! Car companies
and companies in general have come and gone. Something else will take their place.

I have family in Canada that WORKED for the D3 sorry they lost their jobs, but people
lose their jobs everyday. It's not the goverment's job to float EVERY damn company
that makes mistakes with product development and research.

B

[BanginJimmy]

i do realize the effects.several parts makers/distributors are filing chapter 11, and a lot of work is tied to the auto industry.the thing i don't like is that they did it to themselves. they cut a lot of corners and made some crappy cars, rammed the SUV(Hummer) down our throats that got 8mpg, and only recently have their cars been getting better mpg. im my opinion the company execs gotta go for them to even work. they made tons of money off v8's until gas hit $4.00 a gallon and sales plumetted. and now they are asking for help to stay afloat b/c they rode the wave too long. chrysler is a privately owned company(you cannot buy stock in it) so what do we get if they fail. sounds like they need to be restructed from the ground up and the big fellas at the top gotta go. we have known af global warming for a while now and until recently nobody cared and they pumped out suv after suv. so as i stated a better business model and r&D would have gone a long way a couple of years ago, but greed got the best of them. i do feel sorry for the workers for sure, but the workers can also try to influence the product and bring forth new ideas.

This is kind of accurate, but not completely. GM went through a horrid period of crap cars in the 80's and that hurt their reputation. That era is over now and a car made by GM is the same quality as anyone else. What is really killing GM right now is the costs of RETIRED employees. I read at some point that cutting the retirement down to 80% would free up more than 50B in yearly revenue. That revenue would quickly put GM back on the correct road to recovery.

[Vteckidd]

DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors Corp. posted a $9.6 billion fourth-quarter loss and said it burned through $6.2 billion of cash in the last three months of 2008 as it fought the worst U.S. auto sales climate since 1982 and sought government loans to keep the century-old company running.

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The nation's biggest domestic automaker said Thursday it lost $30.9 billion for the full year and expects to state in its upcoming annual report whether its auditors believe the company remains a "going concern." GM and its auditors must determine whether there is substantial doubt about the automaker's ability to continue it operations.

Chief Financial Officer Ray Young said the determination will depend a lot on whether GM gets further government loans and whether it can accomplish its restructuring goals.

Young said that auditors are studying the future of the company because "there's uncertainty with how the Treasury will view our viability plan," and "uncertainty on whether we're going to be able to execute the terms of our loan agreement."

The company has received $13.4 billion in federal loans since Dec. 31 and says it needs up to $30 billion to stay out of Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Top GM executives were in Washington, D.C., Thursday to meet with the Obama administration's auto task force to talk about restructuring and additional loans.

"2008 was an extremely difficult year for the U.S. and global auto markets, especially the second half," Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said in a statement. "These conditions created a very challenging environment for GM and other automakers and led us to take further aggressive and difficult measures to restructure our business."

Young said GM would reduce its structural costs by another $4.5 billion in 2009, from $30.8 billion to $26.3 billion.

GM reported a net loss of $15.71 per share for the fourth quarter, compared with a loss of $722 million, or $1.28 per share in the year-ago period.

Quarterly revenue fell 39 percent to $30.8 billion from $46.8 billion, as credit availability froze across the globe, and a lack of consumer confidence and fears of job losses kept people from buying vehicles.

GM's fourth-quarter loss included $3.7 billion in special items, including a $1.1 billion charge for a drop in value of machinery for the Hummer and Saab brands, which are up for sale. Other charges included $900 million for restructuring, including worker buyout and early retirement payments, and $660 million to increase reserves for former parts arm Delphi Corp.'s future pension obligations.

The charges were offset by a $533 million net gain from a bond exchange at GM's financial arm, GMAC Financial Services.

Excluding special items, GM's fourth-quarter adjusted loss was $5.9 billion, or $9.65 per share.

That was worse than Wall Street expected. Analysts surveyed by Thomson Reuters predicted a quarterly loss of $7.40 per share on sales of $35.1 billion.

For the full year, GM's net loss was $53.32 per share, the second-worst annual result in the company's history. The worst loss occurred in 2007, when the Detroit-based company lost $38.7 billion, or $68.45 per share, in 2007, due largely to charges for unused tax credits.

GM's cash burn rate, the difference between how much it takes in and how much it spends, narrowed slightly from $6.9 billion in the third quarter, reflecting GM's restructuring efforts.

The company last year announced the closure of four assembly plants and a parts stamping factory.

Last week, a plan GM submitted to the Treasury Department to justify more loans said the company would close five more U.S. factories and cut another 47,000 jobs globally. GM also reached a tentative deal with the United Auto Workers on concessions that will reduce labor costs.

Since 2000, GM's U.S. salaried work force has shrunk by 33 percent from its 2000 high of 44,000 people. At the same time, the number of hourly workers has plunged by more than half -- to about 63,700 people at the end of last year from 133,000 in 2000.

GM ended last year with about $14 billion in cash, $10.5 billion less that the $24.5 billion it had at the end of 2007. The 2008 figure is close to the minimum amount of cash GM has said it needs to fund its operations.

Young said GM's total debt at the end of 2008, including the $4 billion in government loans it received Dec. 31, was $45.3 billion. The company has been negotiating with bondholders to convert most of that debt to equity, which is a requirement of the government's loan terms.

Young told reporters the credit crisis spread from the U.S. to other markets, making the fourth-quarter a challenging one.

But there was some hope, he said. While global sales fell, some emerging markets, such as China, are off to a good start in 2009.

"A lot of the governments in these countries are putting a lot of stimulus into the economy as well as the automotive market," he said, citing lower sales tax rates on cars sold in China and Brazil.

GM shares fell 19 cents, or 7.5 percent, to $2.36 in premarket activity.

[preferredduck]

This is kind of accurate, but not completely. GM went through a horrid period of crap cars in the 80's and that hurt their reputation. That era is over now and a car made by GM is the same quality as anyone else. What is really killing GM right now is the costs of RETIRED employees. I read at some point that cutting the retirement down to 80% would free up more than 50B in yearly revenue. That revenue would quickly put GM back on the correct road to recovery.


you are correct, retired employees and there healthcare costs make a big deficit from the start that would save a lot of money. and yes in the 80's they made crappy cars to have you buy another quicker(like a dirty mechanic basically) not all of them were crap, ford has always had good trucks for sure. at the time, honda, toyota, etc were making 4cyl. 32mpg cars that ran forever. i have seen so many 84-86 accords run through hell and back till 400k miles, and that was on three cylinders, lol. there quality and resale value are much better than it used to be but most people like the imports better b/c they have been driving them for years, and thats what they want to get their kids too. but in recent years they did not build many MPG machines worht a damn till it was too late. RIP Hummer, and damn sure won't miss the crazy women on their cellphones in those on 85.

[BanginJimmy]

I would put any non-4cyl car up against an import any day in quality. The GM 350 and Ford 351 are the 2 best engines ever made for power, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

Those Jap imports were great for MPG and for longivity, but they have no power at all. If you babied them they lasted forever, but if you were pushing them on a daily basis they just didnt last.

Fast forward to this decade. There is no appreciable difference in quality between a GM vehicle over an import. IMO americans still cant make a 4cyl for shit and they make you shoose between power or reliablilty when they do. American trucks are still the best in the world though and Americans still build the best V8's in the world.

[preferredduck]

I would put any non-4cyl car up against an import any day in quality. The GM 350 and Ford 351 are the 2 best engines ever made for power, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

Those Jap imports were great for MPG and for longivity, but they have no power at all. If you babied them they lasted forever, but if you were pushing them on a daily basis they just didnt last.

Fast forward to this decade. There is no appreciable difference in quality between a GM vehicle over an import. IMO americans still cant make a 4cyl for shit and they make you shoose between power or reliablilty when they do. American trucks are still the best in the world though and Americans still build the best V8's in the world.


true on the v8's tey do make power and are reliable. and honda's don't make much torque but can be revved really high. i know several people with older hondas that have been dogged out bad and still ran like a champ. the accord i was refering to was a friend of mines and that thing was sunk underwater/oil never changed, and it finally died with over 400k miles on at after running on 3 cyl for a year. my brother has an 89 mustang gt which has been babied. the sad part is my parents used to drive domestics, but they drive imports now. i know the ford explorer/winstar had problems with the tranny and heads/head gaskets. i sold fords back in 02. and no the us car companies cannot make a good 4 cyl.

[eraser4g63]

http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg
....

[ahabion]

^^^LoL

[preferredduck]

http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg
....

lololololol

[eraser4g63]

I about fell out when i found it.

[F8d2Blk]

BanginJimmy,
It's unfortunate but I think the biggest thing with Chevy's, Fords, and GM's is simply resale value too.

[HypnoToad]

I would put any non-4cyl car up against an import any day in quality. The GM 350 and Ford 351 are the 2 best engines ever made for power, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

Those Jap imports were great for MPG and for longivity, but they have no power at all. If you babied them they lasted forever, but if you were pushing them on a daily basis they just didnt last.

Fast forward to this decade. There is no appreciable difference in quality between a GM vehicle over an import. IMO americans still cant make a 4cyl for shit and they make you shoose between power or reliablilty when they do. American trucks are still the best in the world though and Americans still build the best V8's in the world.

x2,i wouldnt doubt that my 3rd gen camaro runs better than 70% of the hondas on this site...its got nice power,reliable,looks good and gets good gas milage.

as for american cars,i could careless.....i have the one i want.

[§treet_§peed]

my 96 civic had over 300k miles. i dogged the piss out of it for the most part everyday. never had any issues other than simple and basic maintenance. ran high 15's which is not bad for a ungutted 2 door civic with a d16y7, just ebay bolt ons. but anyways i got around 40-45 mpg. it would burn maybe a few drops of oil 2-3 months from constant high revs. but i mean hell what car wouldn't? either way you can't really beat most imports for reliability. yeah maybe not much power but enough for the road. i mean i only know of maybe a handful of people that drive their 10 second and below cars daily. IMO Ford, Chevy, etc. should of cleaned their act up years ago. time for them to learn from their mistakes. i don't think we should bail them out period. tuff shit let them taste fail. maybe next time they will do better.

[BanginJimmy]

my 96 civic had over 300k miles. i dogged the piss out of it for the most part everyday. never had any issues other than simple and basic maintenance. ran high 15's which is not bad for a ungutted 2 door civic with a d16y7, just ebay bolt ons. but anyways i got around 40-45 mpg. it would burn maybe a few drops of oil 2-3 months from constant high revs. but i mean hell what car wouldn't? either way you can't really beat most imports for reliability. yeah maybe not much power but enough for the road. i mean i only know of maybe a handful of people that drive their 10 second and below cars daily. IMO Ford, Chevy, etc. should of cleaned their act up years ago. time for them to learn from their mistakes. i don't think we should bail them out period. tuff shit let them taste fail. maybe next time they will do better.


There are always exceptions and I would imagine you take better care of your vehicles than the average american does also. My dad got nearly 900K miles out of his Ford E-350 that had the 351 in it. That was longer than I have ever heard of a non-deisel engine going. The only maintenance was regular maintenance and the only major repair was a second tranny at nearly 400K miles.

Now look at other cars. My sis had a 96 civic. It had 0 power from the factory and got good gas milage, but was dead after less than 120k miles. She wasnt religious about oil changes but she did keep good records and she never went more than 5k miles without an oil change. If I remember correctly she threw a rod and scored the cylinder wall pretty bad. The only way to fix it was to put a liner into the cylinder or replace the block.

My sis in law had a 04 Mazda 6. Less than 90k miles and the tranny was shot on it. Does doesnt drive crazy, but she does spend alot of time in traffic. They quoted her more than 3k to replace the tranny with a new one. She also had a brake issue and would go through a set of breaks in 30k miles.

[Glides]

I would put any non-4cyl car up against an import any day in quality. The GM 350 and Ford 351 are the 2 best engines ever made for power, reliability, and ease of maintenance.

I agree. American 350's are, hands down, one of the best engines ever made.



Those Jap imports were great for MPG and for longivity, but they have no power at all. If you babied them they lasted forever, but if you were pushing them on a daily basis they just didnt last.

This statement though, I cannot agree with. Engines are engines in the longevity department. You baby them, they last. You don't, they don't. V8's are no different from 4 bangers in that respect. I know just as many 4 banging imports that need rebuilds after beating them as I do V8s and the same with ones that don't.


Fast forward to this decade. There is no appreciable difference in quality between a GM vehicle over an import. IMO americans still cant make a 4cyl for shit and they make you shoose between power or reliablilty when they do. American trucks are still the best in the world though and Americans still build the best V8's in the world.

Can't agree with you here either. Germans have the quality leaps and bounds over American cars. The Japanese have taken refinement to incredible new levels. Americans have sadly, lacked behind. I would spend more for an Audi or a VW then I would for the Emerican equivelant any day of the week simply because most American cars feel cheap. They are just sadly, not solid cars.

Americans had too long clung to the all or nothing theory of car building. What that means is that you either had a Cadillac or a Corvette. If you owned a Cadillac, it rode like you were going to church every day of the week. The exact opposite for the Corvette. Only recently have they started to combine the 2. Germans have been doing it for years, so have the Japanese. The CTSV is a prime example of combinations. But it is considered a "Niche" market car. BMWs have been luxury and sport or many many years.

Ford has grasped this concept of car building, that is why it is popular in other areas of the world. Problem is, the cars that you can get in other areas of the world, Ford won't release here until recently. GM has finally started seeing the light, but it's too little too late.

Now, what you said about the Unions, I wholeheartedly agree with. Unions ar eMUCH harder to get out then people think. But if there is a time to do it, that time is now. Soaring unemployment rates combined with an Auto Workers strike will do nothing but bring hoards of unemployed to fill the positions that the strikers leave open. That will take care of workers end of it. The political end is much harder. The Unions lines pockets with cash in hella large amounts. Politicians are made and broken by the Union.

The Union was a great thing back in the beginning. Workers were being treated unfairly and something needed to be done. But this ain't the days of hard knuckled Hoffa style tactics. This is the new world, where there are laws that protect workers and the unions are simply not needed and are a dinosaur of corruption.

[preferredduck]

well it was announced today that GM cannot continue to operate by it's auditors, which basically means bankruptcy is going to happen sooner or sooner. it cannot be dodged at this point which will have a big effect on a lot of other business also. we have already seen many parts suppliers go under and there will be more to come, unless the gov't takes over and makes green cars there is no hope.

[preferredduck]

There are always exceptions and I would imagine you take better care of your vehicles than the average american does also. My dad got nearly 900K miles out of his Ford E-350 that had the 351 in it. That was longer than I have ever heard of a non-deisel engine going. The only maintenance was regular maintenance and the only major repair was a second tranny at nearly 400K miles.

Now look at other cars. My sis had a 96 civic. It had 0 power from the factory and got good gas milage, but was dead after less than 120k miles. She wasnt religious about oil changes but she did keep good records and she never went more than 5k miles without an oil change. If I remember correctly she threw a rod and scored the cylinder wall pretty bad. The only way to fix it was to put a liner into the cylinder or replace the block.

My sis in law had a 04 Mazda 6. Less than 90k miles and the tranny was shot on it. Does doesnt drive crazy, but she does spend alot of time in traffic. They quoted her more than 3k to replace the tranny with a new one. She also had a brake issue and would go through a set of breaks in 30k miles.

ok 5k miles for an oil change is a little too long if running conventional oil. i have had several honda's, the first was a high mileage 94 civic ex, i might have ran with no oil for over 1500 miles(because i was 16 and ignorant) ans still ran fine, never left me on the side of the road. my ex-wife drove my 00 si with no oil from fla to ga and it did not miss a beat or throw a rod(thankfully). and yes the d-series 96-00 engines have a weakness and a lot of them throw rods for some reason or another. as far as mazda goes it is owned by ford motor company, so it is a ford really. going through brakes real fast sounds like most people(women) i see driving today. waiting to get to the stop sign and slamming them down etc. so brakes would be a driving habit more times than a brake problem. btw there is a gm non diesel truck that went over a million miles, the guy was given a new truck for advertising etc. and as for the german cars, they are good but the vw jetta sucked. several people i know(including me) had to have an $8,000 transmission replacememnt at 100k miles, and the electrical systems were always fritzing. my brother has a silverado truck, an 02 which has had 2 transmissions put in it thus far and he babies and maintains every car he owns.

[BanginJimmy]

Now, what you said about the Unions, I wholeheartedly agree with. Unions ar eMUCH harder to get out then people think. But if there is a time to do it, that time is now. Soaring unemployment rates combined with an Auto Workers strike will do nothing but bring hoards of unemployed to fill the positions that the strikers leave open. That will take care of workers end of it. The political end is much harder. The Unions lines pockets with cash in hella large amounts. Politicians are made and broken by the Union.

The Union was a great thing back in the beginning. Workers were being treated unfairly and something needed to be done. But this ain't the days of hard knuckled Hoffa style tactics. This is the new world, where there are laws that protect workers and the unions are simply not needed and are a dinosaur of corruption.


Cant argue with anything else you have said and I will agree with you about the Germans. They make one hell of a car over there.


We also agree on the unions. I'm not so much worried about having the actual workers because there will be plenty of people willing to work for GM. The problem is politics. Politicians can have a HUGE impact on the ability of a major corporation like GM to operate. If they want to expand they need political support for any number of reasons. Can GM operate without political support, yes, but I cannot see the unions giving up that easily. Remember, there are a few hundred people that are employed by the unions and they have a huge amount of power in Washington.

Unions have indeed outlived their origional purpose. They are no longer protecting anyone, they are strongarming business into paying outragous amounts for what basicly amounts to menial labor. They are also making it impossible for a business to compete globally and are forcing some to close their doors. I have been seeing these commercials trying to get new industry into Michigan, but if anyone is smart they will stay as far from there as possible. The union mindset is extremely strong there and they will quickly organize.

[preferredduck]

btw what happens to the billions of dollars us tax payers loaned them if they go under, nobody has raised that question yet.

[NAMNORI]

GM is done and they have been for about a year now it's over forget about the 2011 vette because it ain't coming out! Next is Chrysler(Dodge is included in that also). It's gonna get a lot harder than anyone wants to admit, but thats life.

[BanginJimmy]

GM is done and they have been for about a year now it's over forget about the 2011 vette because it ain't coming out! Next is Chrysler(Dodge is included in that also). It's gonna get a lot harder than anyone wants to admit, but thats life.


Even if they go into bankruptcy they arent going anywhere. They will cut back some more and restructure. If that happens and they can avoid the politics and get rid of the union GM will be fine. I'll have to find the numbers again, but it was either 06 or 07 where GM sold more than a million more vehicles than Toyota but GM had like 60B less profit. It comes down to the fact that GM is paying FAR too much to retired workers. That stat you hear about where GM employees are paid $75/hr isnt far from the truth. They arent paid that much, but when you break down the amount of money spent on salary and benefits for active and retired workers, then divide it by the hours spent to build every car that GM builds it works out to right around $75 per manhour. I believe Toyota is around $45. When your workers log close to 1B manhours a year that adds up quickly.

[NAMNORI]

true but they are done the only thing bankruptcy is going to do for them is help them pay thier debts it wont save them there isnt enough restructuring that they can do to keep them going union or no union. The problem is that the unions (not just auto) are killing the ability to make any sort of long term profits, look at walmart they will not allow thier empolyees to unoinize for that reason.

[BanginJimmy]

As soon as the union is gone, and a few adjustments to retirements and GM will be running at a profit. A drop from the curent 95% retirement rate to 80% alone would free up nearly $50B in cash on a yearly basis. That doesnt affect retirement healthcare, or any benefit for a current worker.

[Frög]

uhhh I can't believe we give them money..

All this is part of the reasons I can't sleep at night..

[NewGen33]

You know I'm not a pro union guy
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