I guess ill start it off, so where do you think...??

[matthewAPM]

So where do YOU think you go when you die? Some say heaven or hell, some say you are reborn as something else, and some say you just die.

So whats your take on this?

[ShooterMcGavin]

i'm goin 6 ft under.

[Bruce Leroy]

I think I'll just be dead.

[ISAtlanta300]

Your 'spirit' will probably go to a state of euphoria and enlightment, free to wander the universe and bask in all it's glory. You will be one big ball of energy, able to be everything and nothing at all.....

but perhaps i've said too much... :)



But in all seriousness, I do hope and 'believe' there is something after. Not heaven as people describe it, but at least a place to rekindle with your loved ones.

I would certainly hope so, cause why then go through life, go through emotions like love, and get so close to another person (wife, life partner), only to die in the end and have nothing left, not seeing each other ever again? If so, being born is pretty pointless if there is nothing in the end.

[Andy_013]

i'm going to be reincarnated

[RL...]

Nothingness. Complete nothingness in every sense of the words meaning.

[soul]

Your 'spirit' will probably go to a state of euphoria and enlightment, free to wander the universe and bask in all it's glory. You will be one big ball of energy, able to be everything and nothing at all.....

but perhaps i've said too much... :)



But in all seriousness, I do hope and 'believe' there is something after. Not heaven as people describe it, but at least a place to rekindle with your loved ones.

I would certainly hope so, cause why then go through life, go through emotions like love, and get so close to another person (wife, life partner), only to die in the end and have nothing left, not seeing each other ever again? If so, being born is pretty pointless if there is nothing in the end.
summed it up real well at the end. Whats the point of living life, going threw the pains and struggles, ups and downs, if there is no point to it in the end, why live..... just go kill yourself, get it over with, if there is nothing in the end.

[BIG WORM]

Nothingness. Complete nothingness in every sense of the words meaning.

I figured you planed on going to "GT-R Fanboy Heaven."

[qwick]

I think you get one chance at life so you better make it worth it, because when you die thats it, your dead ,there is nothing else.


summed it up real well at the end. Whats the point of living life, going threw the pains and struggles, ups and downs, if there is no point to it in the end, why live..... just go kill yourself, get it over with, if there is nothing in the end.

The point of life is living, going through those ups and downs makes you who you are, make you wiser and stronger as a person. Thus sharing your life lessons with the next generation so that they them selves may then lead a better, more fruitful life. Add that, plus basic human nature, the need/want to insure that the species continues and you have your reason for living without religion. :2cents:

[ISAtlanta300]

I think you get one chance at life so you better make it worth it, because when you die thats it, your dead ,there is nothing else.



The point of life is living, going through those ups and downs makes you who you are, make you wiser and stronger as a person. Thus sharing your life lessons with the next generation so that they them selves may then lead a better, more fruitful life. Add that, plus basic human nature, the need/want to insure that the species continues and you have your reason for living without religion. :2cents:

But ... why???? Why fall in love then, if in the end, there is nothing? Might as well never fall in love, never get married.. just live and eat like wild animals and die off....

The simple fact that we are the ONLY species to harbor such emotions and intelligence, tells me that there has to be something else for us. If not, we are pretty much a big waste of space..... we do more harm than good to the planet anyway.....

Why would "God" or evolution or whatever give us the ability to love someone that we would DIE for.... live our entire life together with them, only to forever separate us in the end? Why then give us the ability to love our parents, our kids, our partners etc.? Animals don't really have this? I don't think they really cry when we give away one of their litter? Or if we eat one of their embryo's? (eggs). Why do WE have this then? That would just be too cruel, to torture us with the sorrow and knowledge of death with no hope for rekindling.

[ISAtlanta300]

summed it up real well at the end. Whats the point of living life, going threw the pains and struggles, ups and downs, if there is no point to it in the end, why live..... just go kill yourself, get it over with, if there is nothing in the end.

Exactly cause no matter how much fun you had living, in the end you won't remember shit anyway, right? It's not like you would be lying in your casket going "oh shit.. that was a fun life !!".

It seems like a paradox to acumulate so many experiences and having nothing in the end.....

[zimabog]

But ... why???? Why fall in love then, if in the end, there is nothing? Might as well never fall in love, never get married.. just live and eat like wild animals and die off....

The simple fact that we are the ONLY species to harbor such emotions and intelligence, tells me that there has to be something else for us. If not, we are pretty much a big waste of space..... we do more harm than good to the planet anyway.....

Why would "God" or evolution or whatever give us the ability to love someone that we would DIE for.... live our entire life together with them, only to forever separate us in the end? Why then give us the ability to love our parents, our kids, our partners etc.? Animals don't really have this? I don't think they really cry when we give away one of their litter? Or if we eat one of their embryo's? (eggs). Why do WE have this then? That would just be too cruel, to torture us with the sorrow and knowledge of death with no hope for rekindling.


do you not know that many other animals pair for life and even go to extremes to protect their friends?

Many animals DO have "this". There has even been cross species friendship observed in some zoos that dont exactly separate the different animals.

Truth is, we, homo sapiens, are just as animal as they are. We are not special. We are more intelligent of course, we have more brain activity, more complex thinking, but we sir... are NOT divinely special.

Just like wood rots, grass dies, our cells get damaged by the world, and can't sustain themselves. we die, just like 300 year old trees, like squirrels, like dogs,like bugs.... just like a device... we turn off.


http://www.mlsstudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pbd_sm1.jpg
"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves...."

That photo was taken IN the solar system. There is a lot more to the universe than homo sapiens, even if there was a god, we are not it's super special creation.

[ISAtlanta300]

do you not know that many other animals pair for life and even go to extremes to protect their friends?

Many animals DO have "this". There has even been cross species friendship observed in some zoos that dont exactly separate the different animals.

.

It's called instinct. I doubt an animal is aware WHY it does it.

[Thighs]

ill probably just die. lol.

but seriously, i have no idea about whats gonna happen.

[ISAtlanta300]

do you not know that many other animals pair for life and even go to extremes to protect their friends?

Many animals DO have "this". There has even been cross species friendship observed in some zoos that dont exactly separate the different animals.

Truth is, we, homo sapiens, are just as animal as they are. We are not special. We are more intelligent of course, we have more brain activity, more complex thinking, but we sir... are NOT divinely special. .[/QUOTE]


I would hate to disagree there. While we have some animal instincts, our advanced brain and higher intelligence does give us certain quality unique to us. We have emotions, rationale. We can tell differences between 'right' and 'wrong', where an animal can not. It is this emotion that usually drives a lot of our actions. I would dare say that we are the ONLY species that are able to THINK about our actions, their consequences, and what drives us to it. I would say that makes us, as a species, quite special.

A cat may show you affection that you may interpret as love, for example, but it's not a display of love on an emotional level like humans do; but more likely because it knows that you are the one that feeds it.



There is a lot more to the universe than homo sapiens, even if there was a god, we are not it's super special creation.

True, the universe is vast, but if there was a 'God' as you said, we ARE it's super special creation. That is what pretty much all religions (those with God) teach. And you are able to see that dot and write an entire paragraph, JUST BECAUSE you are special. You are 'aware', on a level no other species can match.

[zimabog]

Call it instincts if you like, but what you feel when you see a hot women is no more than an instinct.
We have those instincts, but we also have a complex Limbic system in the brain. The more complex the brain is, the more complex the emotions. Its not like there is some special line drawn in the animal kingdom where anything below the line its called an instinct and anything above the line pure love. Love is a necessary instinct we have coupled with a very complex brain.

You and I are homo sapiens, it is impossible to know exactly how another creature feels, so one cant say much about what goes on in their head. You cant confirm that a dog thinks, loves, or knows right and wrong. Even though you can teach a dog to not pee on your floor. A baby doesnt know to take a crap in a toilet, thats why it has a diaper. A toddler will do bad things and not give a crap, because it hasnt learned that it is wrong yet. Same thing happens with a dog when it learns to go pee in the backyard. A CAT scan helps find out the locations and magnitude of brain activity, but you cant get exactly walk in their paws. You may be right, I may be right, but we cant know. We do however know, that humans are animals, we operate in the same way as most other animals.
A mouse may be as dumb as a.... mouse. A racoon is smarter than a mouse, it can learn more things. A dog is smarter than a racoon, it can show more emotion and stuff. A chimp is a lot smarter and can even be taught to do simple jobs that humans get paid to do. Humans are far smarter than all, we have certian genes that have evolved to help us with language (FOXP2 gene) and problem solving. But there is nothing that declares us as an animal created distincitly seperate and specially made by a god. We have no purpose on earth any more special than a mouse. If anything we have a determental effect on earth.

But what we do know is that humans are successful, not 'divinely special'.
Animals are not "put on earth for us to ride and eat" as the bible says. if you think we are that special, where our evolutionary line did the special happen? where in the evolutionary line did we not become just a creature in nature?

Our purpose is none. Our goal is to survive. We just have a lot of fun in the process.

[Sport1.3]

i'm going to be burned to a fine powder and rest on the mantle in my childrens home

[zimabog]

True, the universe is vast, but if there was a 'God' as you said, we ARE it's super special creation. That is what pretty much all religions (those with God) teach. And you are able to see that dot and write an entire paragraph, JUST BECAUSE you are special. You are 'aware', on a level no other species can match.

by "we" do you mean homo sapeins or creatures in general?

[ISAtlanta300]

Humans.

[ahabion]

Call it instincts if you like, but what you feel when you see a hot women is no more than an instinct.
We have those instincts, but we also have a complex Limbic system in the brain. The more complex the brain is, the more complex the emotions. Its not like there is some special line drawn in the animal kingdom where anything below the line its called an instinct and anything above the line pure love. Love is a necessary instinct we have coupled with a very complex brain.

You and I are homo sapiens, it is impossible to know exactly how another creature feels, so one cant say much about what goes on in their head. You cant confirm that a dog thinks, loves, or knows right and wrong. Even though you can teach a dog to not pee on your floor. A baby doesnt know to take a crap in a toilet, thats why it has a diaper. A toddler will do bad things and not give a crap, because it hasnt learned that it is wrong yet. Same thing happens with a dog when it learns to go pee in the backyard. A CAT scan helps find out the locations and magnitude of brain activity, but you cant get exactly walk in their paws. You may be right, I may be right, but we cant know. We do however know, that humans are animals, we operate in the same way as most other animals.
A mouse may be as dumb as a.... mouse. A racoon is smarter than a mouse, it can learn more things. A dog is smarter than a racoon, it can show more emotion and stuff. A chimp is a lot smarter and can even be taught to do simple jobs that humans get paid to do. Humans are far smarter than all, we have certian genes that have evolved to help us with language (FOXP2 gene) and problem solving. But there is nothing that declares us as an animal created distincitly seperate and specially made by a god. We have no purpose on earth any more special than a mouse. If anything we have a determental effect on earth.

But what we do know is that humans are successful, not 'divinely special'.
Animals are not "put on earth for us to ride and eat" as the bible says. if you think we are that special, where our evolutionary line did the special happen? where in the evolutionary line did we not become just a creature in nature?

Our purpose is none. Our goal is to survive. We just have a lot of fun in the process.

Strange though that we're the only animal species that cannot live in harmony with the world. It's Agent Smith telling about the Matrix all over again... We're a disease, consuming every natural resource available and we're the only species to adapt the environment to suit our needs... not adapting to the environment. Is that really evolution or is it an example of regression?

[qwick]

“What’s the point in living if there is no God?”



Ok think about all the people that you love, all the little things that bring you enjoyment, and all the things that you hold precious. Do you love, enjoy, and cherish those things because you believe there is a god? Would you care less about all those things if there wasn’t a god?



Let’s say I’m right and there is no god. Would you honestly be willing to give up on the things you love? If your answer is yes, then you really didn’t love them that much to start with. If your answer is no, then what does it matter if there is a god or not. Like I said above my opinion is that the point to life is living, and enjoying the time you have here on earth because once you’re dead, that’s it there is nothing else.

[MrBoostedCRX]

I think I'll just be dead.

yea man me too...

[DarkPrince10]

to be honest, who cares about ones spirit? sure you try to save it... why would it matter, when you die, your memories and everything with it stays with the body... and decomposes correct? and the "spirit" will be off doing its own thing... which ever it might be (assuming it is being believed in). no one has any recollection of past events or other lives... TECHNICALLY our bodies is possessed by an outside force that lives through us and moves on as we die... I kinda made that last part up.. but I kinda feel used now lol..

I do ask of you to be logical of this and bash it all you want, I am looking forward to the responses!

[sport_122]

darkprince10...

the problem with your statement is that it is an assumption that the spirit has no recollection and no memories. People who have "died" and been brought back and had "death or near death experiences" have all remembered and felt emotional connections. Some of them claim a sense of peace and some claim a sense of unrest and torment. So there is definitely more than just death.

I look at our situation (mankind) and it is obvious to me that there is something much much more than evolution (which I don't believe in) that makes us stand out.
Some of the simple facts about humans are:

We have the ability to destroy and to preserve life. With us it is given as a choice, not an instinct. Animals instinctively do things, dogs, cats, sharks, they live based off of instinct. A dog does not feel remorse for biting, nor do sharks decide that they would rather be plant eaters because they don't want to hurt other animals. I do believe we have instincts, but I also see that we are in a place that no other creature on this earth is in. There is something to that.

Also, lets look at evolution. The idea is that men all come from the same place. There are some problems with this theory.

1st. If one animal can evolve then we should also note that the same thing would be taking place in other species and groups in some sort of variation. This would mean that as we look around we would see other animals evolving to meet the "competition" for survival that men have become. We don't see this. In fact, we see animals like the shark who have come to a place where they are said to have not evolved for millions of years. They have not started to talk, they have not sprouted legs to get on land, they have simply remained the same. This places a big hole in the argument for evolution as a total category.

I do not believe that we come from monkeys because that would mean that they would have ceased to exist at some point because they would have been replaced by a stronger species.

Thats just the iceberg on the holes in the theory of evolution. Now I believe that people adapt, but I don't believe that the adaptation is a species changing thing, I believe its just like getting used to a new climate, or a new city. We adjust and we make due.

For those who think that we just die and that's it. There is an enormous amount of evidence to support the existence of paranormal activity. Spirits, ghosts, demons, whatever you want to call it, but the evidence is there. That evidence makes me stand pretty solid in a belief that there is much more to the world that what we see.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe that there is something powerful and penetrating that happened in the middle east 2 thousand years ago. I believe that even if you don't believe in the Bible as a person of Christian faith (notice I did not say religious person) that there is still a very large amount of evidence in historical documentation to support the history, the miraculous nature, and the moral usefulness (sadly bad and good) that exists in the pages of the Bible.

If you respond to this please PM me b/c I am not likely to come back here otherwise.

[BallerDave04]

The point to life is to live for others. To be selfless. Read the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John and it will show you how to live your lives. Jesus was our example, then He died for us so we may repent and live blameless in the eyes of the Father.

Heaven and Hell are the two choices, choose well.

[zimabog]

1st. If one animal can evolve then we should also note that the same thing would be taking place in other species and groups in some sort of variation. This would mean that as we look around we would see other animals evolving to meet the "competition" for survival that men have become. We don't see this.

We do see evolution in other animals.



In fact, we see animals like the shark who have come to a place where they are said to have not evolved for millions of years.

They are already the kings of the ocean. But they do evolve, but very slowly.



I do not believe that we come from monkeys because that would mean that they would have ceased to exist at some point because they would have been replaced by a stronger species.
You are kind of correct here, most of the time old species die out because they are not competitive. But old species can still survive and live on. But in what you are talking about... Humans did not evolve from chimps or gorillas, but we do have a common ancestor at one point. They just evolved one direction and we went another. Humans did not branch off of modern primates; but many many years ago our ancestors came from the same branch.


Just getting things cleared up there.

[Frög]

Do I believe in god/heaven/hell?

Well I am a Catholic, but my views on religion are not exactly what preacher Joe would want them to be..

I like the fact that I am catholic, here for a common good, but I am not religious.. Also, believing in god gives hope, and sometimes, one really needs that hope..

It is a pretty selfish way to look at it, I don't acknowledge God, but for example, if I am taken hostage from Derka Derka Mohamed and about to get decapitated with a kitchen knife; I am going to pray God for a miracle..

[sport_122]

We do see evolution in other animals.
They are already the kings of the ocean. But they do evolve, but very slowly.

You are kind of correct here, most of the time old species die out because they are not competitive. But old species can still survive and live on. But in what you are talking about... Humans did not evolve from chimps or gorillas, but we do have a common ancestor at one point. They just evolved one direction and we went another. Humans did not branch off of modern primates; but many many years ago our ancestors came from the same branch.

Just getting things cleared up there.

thanks for PM'ing me.

The fossil record does not accurately depict the in between transitions for any species. That is fact. It shows that there have been numerous species of animals that have existed and are no longer around, but it does not accurately show that anything really evolved.

Science takes snapshots and makes a mosaic of time and attempts to make links when there is no evidence of a link. However there is evidence of similarities.

Another problem that hurts the idea of evolution is the origin of life itself. Some believe it was the perfect cocktail and a lightning strike. Some believe it was a comet (but this does not answer the origins of life question). Either way if it were that simple then we would have already conquered death and disproved the existence of souls.

We cannot revive a person who has been dead for a certain amount of time. we cannot take the elements of life and put them in a jar and strike them with lightning and watch bacteria form. There is just no way around it. If life was stated this way then we would have duplicated this a long time ago.

Evolution leads you to believe that life is just an ever molding thing that is working its way into some sort of nirvana state. The problem is that in order make a claim for evolution you have to also make a claim for origins of life.

A person who dies of a heart attack would get a new heart and get shocked and pick right up where they left off. This doesn't happen because there is MUCH more to life than the idea of big bang, a lightning bolt and then natural selection.

[zimabog]

im not a doctor or medical professional so i cant go into the details of why exactly people die and stuff. But i will say that the big bang is flawed and has much evidence against it. it was also created by a catholic priest so that kind of says something.


But do you believe in natural selection? Do you know that the reason for blue eyes, skin color, blonde hair, red hair is a product of mutation and sexual selection?

For instance I will talk about blue eyes.
Blue eyes came into existence around the Black Sea 6000-10000 years ago through a mutation in the OCA2 gene. And through sexual selection it has become as large an eye color group as it is today. We all used to have brown eyes.

That is a sample of evolution in our very very recent history.

A support for an out of Africa theory is supported by the existence of Haplogroups, basically they are small mutations in your y-chromosome that can tell you where you very old ancestors came from. It is kind of complex to talk about, but you should look it up. But very interesting.

Even if you don't believe in evolution you have to admit the similarities.
modern human
http://www.topnews.in/files/Human%20Skull.jpg

Homo_heidelbergensis
http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/bh-022-md.jpg

Homo Antecessor
http://www.portalciencia.net/images/homoantecesor1.jpg

Homo Ergaster
http://www.boneclones.com/images/bh011_web-sm.jpg

[preferredduck]

we are all made of energy including everything on the planet so i think we will be some other form of energy.

[preferredduck]

want a really twisted spin on our evolution, the sumarians said we are a human/alien hybrid from mars, and we came here from mars b/c of a planet exploding(asteroid belt) and destroyed the surface of mars 10k years ago, and we have interbred ever since. kind of fucked up isn't it. but those ancient people had technologies and knowledg that we did not know until recently. and some of the things that have been done cannot be duplicated today. i thought we were smarter lol.

[_Christian_]

preacher Joe
You've been beating off to Danica Patrick haven't you?

+reps for good posts from zimabog

[ahabion]

But do you believe in natural selection? Do you know that the reason for blue eyes, skin color, blonde hair, red hair is a product of mutation and sexual selection?

For instance I will talk about blue eyes.
Blue eyes came into existence around the Black Sea 6000-10000 years ago through a mutation in the OCA2 gene. And through sexual selection it has become as large an eye color group as it is today. We all used to have brown eyes.

That is a sample of evolution in our very very recent history.



That's not necessarily "evolution" but simply a mutational preferences. Blue eyes don't give you an advantage over brown eyed or even green eye'd folks. You supposedly see like all the rest of us do. The same can be said about a white person choosing to marry another white person. Just because they have another white baby does not make them an evolved person over another person of another color.

They say that homosexuality is either hormones or a DNA wiring issue (would you classify that as a mutation?). But homosexuals are not evolved just because of their differences... you get me?

(just to clarify, the theory of evolution is completely in conflict with homosexuality, as it surely does not pass along the continuation of the species)

[zimabog]

The advantage of white skin revolves around vitamin D production in relation to sunlight conditions in northern latitudes. Something could be similar for blue eyes. Or it could just be a neutral mutation. It could have a physical advantage in the conditions where it originated or it could have to do with sexual selection preference... aka "attractive". But generally what we see as "attractive" is advantageous to the species where they are.

evolution is mutations that work.

work is being done on the genetic links of homosexuality, but im not read up on that. As far as I know homosexuality could be mutation, learned, whatever. i dont know. But what we do know that evolution is a series of mutations that have allowed our linage to survive to present day. Same goes for all creatures. They have survived because they can.

[ahabion]

We do see evolution in other animals.



I think Sport was talking in the context that No animal has evolved to surpass the new predator of the day: Humans. Given how many thousands of millions of years, we have yet to see another animal species surpass the ingenuity of humans. The closests we've observed so far is gorillas using a twig to get some termites.

[zimabog]

monkeys have learned to floss too, that was in the news recently. Monkeys to have one important thing in common to us. War. They have been observed staging large deadly battles in the jungle against other tribes.


But our land superiority can be thanked to great evolution + meat. Not anything divine.

[Frög]

You've been beating off to Danica Patrick haven't you?

HAHAHAHA You know it.. Seriously, I would lick her asshole clean.. The way she talks..

[sport_122]

monkeys have learned to floss too, that was in the news recently. Monkeys to have one important thing in common to us. War. They have been observed staging large deadly battles in the jungle against other tribes.


But our land superiority can be thanked to great evolution + meat. Not anything divine.

I spent two years as a bio major before deciding that I didn't want to go into medicine. The origin of blue eyes and the changes in skin color do not take into account the drastic jumps that evolution has no answer for. Based on evolutionary theories you would almost expect for a mutant baby to have just been born. Lets also keep in mind the traits that you mentioned are not necessarily passed along. Which means that there is no advantage.

Adaptation on the other hand is seen in every day life. A tanned white person versus a tanned black person. A tan does not mean that you have had some sort of genetic change...it just means that your body has absorbed light and has some damaged cells.

The assumption that you have made is that because a person conceives a baby when they have a tan, then that baby will be darker upon its birth. This is simply not the case. for kicks look at Michael Jackson should still have black babies...which leads me to believe the two we have seen him with are not his...even though he is as white as all get out.

This is more common evidence to show the error of nature selection theorists...

People with down syndrome can have normal healthy babies with no defects, people with autism, dwarfism, or giants can have children who do not display these traits. This is proof that the arguments have enormous holes in them.

Because even in disabilities we do not see a genetic trend to their frequency. This shows that these traits or mutations are simply a product of chance and (possibly side effects of other factors. If a person is born with one arm their kids are going to be born normal.

Aside from the "similarities" there is absolutely no concrete evidence, only suggestion, or untestable hypothesis. Now there are numerous scientists who will state that what many evolutionists are looking at is the proof that there were MORE ape or manlike species that went extinct for some reason or another. But the evidence for a thing like evolution would be pouring out of our ears with the shear age of our earth and the data that has been collected through our fossil record, but its not...there is a piece here, then a piece there, but no strong link to hold ground.


On a lighter note....
there is more evidence (and question) to support the existence of extra terrestrials on this earth through time than there is to support evolution and a pre-modern man species.

But my point again in all of this is to simply state that when discussion the origins of man, evolution does not have a solid foundation to stand on. Scientifically a creator of life on this planet is going to have much more support than evolution. Now whether you believe that creator is divine or not is a different question.

[zimabog]

The origin of blue eyes and the changes in skin color do not take into account the drastic jumps that evolution has no answer for.
it doesnt have to take into account anything, genetic changes are changes no matter what period in history it is.



Adaptation on the other hand is seen in every day life. A tanned white person versus a tanned black person. A tan does not mean that you have had some sort of genetic change...it just means that your body has absorbed light and has some damaged cells.

I think you are totally misunderstanding what I plainly said. I never said that a sun tan was genetic or anything like that. On your account I would have to say you have no idea what you are talking about. A person can get a tan from the sun, however a person just doesnt come back after a week in northern europe with blue eyes. You on the other hand seem to think it works this way? No!
People in africa are not black because of a sun tan, its because of genetics brought on by the conditions. I never said that a tan was genetic, ever. Read my posts over again and you will see that i never said such things.



The assumption that you have made is that because a person conceives a baby when they have a tan, then that baby will be darker upon its birth.

you sir are a freaking idiot. I never said such things. GO AND READ MY POSTS!!!!!!!!!!

Please read my posts because you responding to things that i have never mentioned. I honestly think you are pulling stuff out your ass and responding to a different person. If you want to debate, at know what the other guy said. Its as if you said "I think the 911 system is important." And I responded "But of course cats are cuter than dogs!"
It simply makes no sense. That is what you did. Go and read.

[sport_122]

you still have not addressed the genetic issues in 2 of my posts...

My total response was not addressed to you and there is intended sarcasm there as well.

genetic deformities and alterations which do not necessarily exist in a persons offspring, and the origins of life which this thread is about

Lastly, if you don't have the piece of mind to have this type of discussion without going into name calling or getting emotional then you should not respond to me because that's when my respect for you goes out the window.

The simple fact is that there is no solid science to support evolution. Only snapshots of time and hypothetical answers made to look like facts. The truth is scientist do not know for a fact that we originate from the same place as primates. That is why there is a phrase called the "missing link" because all of this stuff is not proven.

That is also why some people consider the theories of evolution to be the foundation of another religion. Simply put, it cannot be proven, and it can only be believed by faith, not scientific study.


BTW. part of my core study was genetics, I aced that my sophomore year of college. So its not coming from my ass...its coming from my professors and my curriculum.

I would like to add this quote to my "out of my ass" argument. it comes from :http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html. they are obviously creationists or intelligent design people, but the arguments made are thriving strong in at least the collegiate scientific community.

"But evolutionists want you to believe that changes continue, merging gradually into new kinds of creatures. This is where the imaginary part of the theory of evolution comes in. It says that new information is added to the gene pool by mutation and natural selection to create frogs from fish, reptiles from frogs, and mammals from reptiles, to name a few. Do these big changes really happen? Evolutionists tell us we cannot see evolution taking place because it happens too slowly. A human generation takes about 20 years from birth to parenthood. They say it took tens of thousands of generations to form man from a common ancestor with the ape, from populations of only hundreds or thousands. We do not have these problems with bacteria. A new generation of bacteria grows in as short as 12 minutes or up to 24 hours or more, depending on the type of bacteria and the environment, but typically 20 minutes to a few hours. There are more bacteria in the world than there are grains of sand on all of the beaches of the world (and many grains of sand are covered with bacteria). They exist in just about any environment: heat, cold, dry, wet, high pressure, low pressure, small groups, large colonies, isolated, much food, little food, much oxygen, no oxygen, in toxic chemicals, etc. There is much variation in bacteria. There are many mutations (in fact, evolutionists say that smaller organisms have a faster mutation rate than larger ones10). But they never turn into anything new. They always remain bacteria. Fruit flies are much more complex than already complex single-cell bacteria. Scientists like to study them because a generation (from egg to adult) takes only 9 days. In the lab, fruit flies are studied under every conceivable condition. There is much variation in fruit flies. There are many mutations. But they never turn into anything new. They always remain fruit flies. Many years of study of countless generations of bacteria and fruit flies all over the world shows that evolution is not happening today."

[Maniacc]

There is some interesting stuff in here! HOW did I miss this? Haha, I'll come and play later once I get some time to read some of the posts in here - but, I will leave you guys with this kewl quote...

We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.

- Gene Roddenberry

[zimabog]

to Sport, the "out of your ass" i was referring to was you falsely putting words into my mouth, which really pisses me off, thats why i was mad.

[DrivenMind]

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves...."

"To live in the hearts we leave behind is to never die."


Carl Sagan is the man! I'm reading Pale Blue Dot right now, having just finished Cosmos.

I don't believe in heaven or hell. But I'd like my ashes to be shot into space.

[DrivenMind]

Better yet... here's some more Sagan for you guys.

[ahabion]

monkeys have learned to floss too, that was in the news recently. Monkeys to have one important thing in common to us. War. They have been observed staging large deadly battles in the jungle against other tribes.


But our land superiority can be thanked to great evolution + meat. Not anything divine.

Lions, hyenas, ants, and many other community type of animals all claim territorial boundaries and defend them exclusively from other groups of the same species or against any that may threaten their survival. That is primarily instinctive, to protect, defend, and expand/grow.

So again, the question is still posed, how come evolution has not yet brought up anything that can surpass humans? I'm not even referring to anything divine in nature, just want an answer.

You can teach many animals to do something but it still isn't instinctive. Tigers can be taught to perform in a circus and dogs to sit... all examples of classic conditioning.

[zimabog]

well my answer would be... if you say there should be something that evolves beyond humans.... then i could say 'well why isn't there anything that evolved beyond creature X?' Then we can have an endless snowball effect of creatures evolving to be superior to anything else and next thing you know there's creatures than can run 300mph, fly, swim underwater, and shoot laser beams out of its eyes. And then the next step will involve running 320mph, gills and lungs, laser beams out of the eyes, fly, and can stop a train with it's tail.

Basically you are asking why isn't there a rapid snowballing effect of specie abilities/advantages?

Well we humans technically aren't the top of the animal kingdom. Technically I would say there is no top of the kingdom. As humans evolved, we lost our great physical strength and developed our brains. Put an unarmed human in the jungle and you would be a super easy kill to most of the predators there if they wanted to eat you. We are not more physically better than a bear, but we are smarter. In the ocean, we are not more physically evolved than a dolphin.

So its hard to say what exactly "surpass" means in your question. Humans fail in every category except for the brain I don't see it as a clear above/below scenario. They evolve how they need to evolve to survive, or they die.

An example, for thousands of years the squirrel populations of Europe and America have been just fine. In Europe they have the Red Squirrel and in America there is the Grey Squirrel. Red squirrels have been doing just fine for massive amounts of time, but a while back some grey squirrels crossed the Atlantic ocean onto England. Red squirrels have a much worse memory (to remember nut locations) than the grey squirrel. Once the grey squirrel was introduced into England, the red squirrel population drastically dropped, the grey squirrel is much better in life than the red squirrel. So things were just fine for thousands of years or so until the red squirrel could no longer survive the way it used to for thousands of years, it can no longer survive unless it evolves a better memory or if the human campaign to get rid of grey squirrels works.

So if its not broken, don't fix it. Animals who were brought up in our urbanism have learned to adapt to it, it works for them. But there is always little things need tweaking I would say, but those take thousands of years. And those tweaks eventually snowball into huge changes in some animals.

[Jason..]

Nothingness. Complete nothingness in every sense of the words meaning.Kinda like before you were born..

[redrumracer]

well my body is going into cryo-preservation, im going to live forever son and dont get it twisted.

[DrivenMind]

Lions, hyenas, ants, and many other community type of animals all claim territorial boundaries and defend them exclusively from other groups of the same species or against any that may threaten their survival. That is primarily instinctive, to protect, defend, and expand/grow.

So again, the question is still posed, how come evolution has not yet brought up anything that can surpass humans? I'm not even referring to anything divine in nature, just want an answer.

You can teach many animals to do something but it still isn't instinctive. Tigers can be taught to perform in a circus and dogs to sit... all examples of classic conditioning.

Because evolution is essentially defined as "change over time". The window of time that human consciousness has been allowed to flourish is nothing, compared to the amount of time that has passed before our consciousness possessed self-awareness.

From the perspective of a homo sapien it is easy to ask the question that you posed "How come evolution has not yet brought up anything that can surpass humans?" And the answer is quite simple.

Due to fact that we are currently the fiercest apex predator ever to exist, it is easy to wonder why in the absence of a supernatural deity we would continue to exist. Why if evolution is true haven't we been surpassed yet? This is simple because, the window of time that defines our existence is so tiny, that we have no real way of fully appreciating the changes that are being made in a broader sense as space-time continues...


We as humans do not posses much in the way naturally occurring physical prowess, and yet despite this, we are able to harness powers that nothing on this earth, not even prior humans have ever imagined the likes of... surely then our abilities are not merely a result of our physical abilities alone, but the manifestations of our imagination in coherent co-operative existence with our accumulative knowledge.

Evolution will come up with some material manifestation superior to humans, but only if humans continue to define their existence as members of a tribe... as "immaterial", and exempt from the laws of the nature that other members of our species have been able to clearly observe.

[PSINXS]

bible makes it clear u go to hades/sheol

aka mankinds common grave aka the fricken dirt.

Dust you are and dust you will return.

[DrivenMind]

bible makes it clear u go to hades/sheol

aka mankinds common grave aka the fricken dirt.

Dust you are and dust you will return.

Only if you beleive in holy books.

We're all going to return to the "fricken dirt" anyway.

So what's the point in having some organization tell you that your alleged immaterial existence will suffer eternal torture if you don't believe in their interpretive illusion?

In modern society, there is no longer a point to it.

[NAG2I]

Im gonna have to agree with Leo Tolstoy here when he said "life without faith is evil and senseless. what a few strong and consistent people do is understand the utter stupidity of the joke being played on them, and realizing the blessing of the dead are far greater then the living, and that the best thing of all is to not live, they act accordingly and instantly bring an end to this stupid joke."

[zimabog]

im going to have to agree with these quotes:

-"Human beings will find a balanced situation when they do good things not because God says it, but because they feel like doing them."
Olof Palme

-"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Albert Einstein

"It[religion] is the opium of the people."
Karl Marx
i prefer the word "placebo" instead of opium.

I see faith as unnecessary. I bet most of the people here practice their specific religion simply because their parents did, and their parents before that. If you were raised in Saudi Arabia you would believe Mohammad was the last prophet and the black stone came from heaven. If you were raised in India, you would be a Sikh, Jain, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, something.

Its not like you when you were a little kid your parents placed different pieces of paper representing different religions and the paper had a summary of each religion and your parents let you choose which you think is the one that suites your beliefs.

At a different time in history you would be a different religion, at the time would you know that its the correct one? No. Even some guy named Ron Hubbard started his own religion that now has a following.

It just seems like people need to realize that religion doesn't matter. You would be the same exact person with or without religion. People don't need to live with "faith". It's arbitrary. People need to 'free their mind'.

[NAG2I]

im going to have to agree with these quotes:

-"Human beings will find a balanced situation when they do good things not because God says it, but because they feel like doing them."
Olof Palme

-"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Albert Einstein

"It[religion] is the opium of the people."
Karl Marx
i prefer the word "placebo" instead of opium.

I see faith as unnecessary. I bet most of the people here practice their specific religion simply because their parents did, and their parents before that. If you were raised in Saudi Arabia you would believe Mohammad was the last prophet and the black stone came from heaven. If you were raised in India, you would be a Sikh, Jain, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, something.

Its not like you when you were a little kid your parents placed different pieces of paper representing different religions and the paper had a summary of each religion and your parents let you choose which you think is the one that suites your beliefs.

At a different time in history you would be a different religion, at the time would you know that its the correct one? No. Even some guy named Ron Hubbard started his own religion that now has a following.

It just seems like people need to realize that religion doesn't matter. You would be the same exact person with or without religion. People don't need to live with "faith". It's arbitrary. People need to 'free their mind'.


you have no explanation of why you think faith is unnecessary all you said was people believe what they believe because of how they were raised or where they were raised. Which is extremely false. i have multiple friends who were sons or daughters of ministers and today are atheist and friends who were raised by atheist parents and now believe in some kind of higher being. i also have a friend from jordan raised to be muslim who believes in the teachings of the bible.

[zimabog]

if you reviewed each religion and decided "yes, i do believe that jesus was the son of a god and died to 'save' us" then good for you, you took in all the information and decided. or you could be a son of a minister, went on the internet and looked at different religions or even thought about if you want to be religious in the first place. And decided "well I like the teachings of the Buddha, i believe one can attain Nirvana, I believe in dhrama, karma, the Samsara cycle... I think I'll be Buddhist." Even after being raised for 18 or so years by hardcore christian or something.
Then they have thought about it, they used their brain, I respect that.
But there are so so many mindless drones who have not thought out their beliefs, they practice their religion, not because they actually took the time to ask "do i believe this", but simply because its all they know.



But I did say an explanation as to why faith is unnecessary. It absolutely does nothing. Its like you can say faith is the act of jumping on 1 foot and rotating in 3 circles at exactly 11:32am each day. What does it do? What would happen if I didnt jump on 1 foot and rotate in 3 circles at exactly 11:32am?
Can you give an explanation as to why faith is necessary? Must we have to have it? What life fulfilling aspect can you only get from 'faith' that you can't get anywhere else?

[NAG2I]

i also have a lot of respect for anyone who goes out and researches and studies different philosophies on why and how we came about to be here. and that is what i did when i was in high school. i was raised in church and it was all i knew. when i hit a certain age i decided i had no reason to believe in what i believed in. so i went out and researched everything i could. and i eventually came back to christianity because for me it was the only thing that made sense.

for me when i didn't believe in anything i didn't find any reason or point to life without faith in something. if you have no faith in anything and ask yourself what is the meaning of life? what kind of answer can you can up with? i couldn't figure out any. there is no reason to live. if nothing that we did here in this life meant or counted for anything what would be the point in trying to do good or help people or anything if we had no repercussions to what we did in this life? science gave me no answers to the meaning of life, it has no explanation of it.

[zimabog]

if you have no faith in anything and ask yourself what is the meaning of life? what kind of answer can you can up with?

To me, the meaning of life is to survive and make sure your people survive.... to me that is the basic pillar of life...
Every single creature tries to follow that pillar.
If there was no life, there would be no need to do those things. Unlike Christianity, I do not believe that life is a god's reality TV show. Mars, Venus, trillions of planets get along just dandy without life. We do not need to be here to make Earth exist. We are somehow here, so better make sure it stays that way.

And to me, helping and being kind is part of that important pillar, to ensure that your species continues in an equal or better way than you are now. I like to think about how I would feel if I was in another person's position, because like me, they are also trying to get by. So the point of doing good and helping people is to be a postive aspect of the community. To be selfless in the face of betterment for mankind. They need to survive just as you try to. I know I am 1/6.5+ billion people and 1/alot of total creatures, and we all have to share this planet. You, your people, and your species exist... so dont fuck it up.

There is no meaning to life, the universe is uneffected by Earth's precense. We are nothing compared to anything. Our domain is 200 miles above the surface to a little bit below the surface. That is nothing, the whole solar system is not even the size of half a pixel at any real distance. So do what you can with your 1/50000th of a pixel.
You live to live, you survive to ensure living. You help other people survive, you help the species survive. You help anything to deserves to live. Help those who cannot help themselves. That is not a meaning, but a drive to make the community a better place.
If someone help's a person or animal... I hope they are doing it for the sake of that person, not for god-points or god fear or something.

[NAG2I]

i respect that. i personally could find no purpose to live like that. it just isn't enough for me. nothing against you though i respect everyones beliefs.

how do you think it all and we all got here?

[zimabog]

i personally could find no purpose to live like that.
no purpose to survive? its life's meaning to me. how i live my life, i can go beyond 'just surviving'. I have 1 life, so I try to live it to the fullest as I can. Do good things and be humble about those things.



how do you think it all and we all got here?
it? whats it?

[Maniacc]

I have no idea what's going on in this thread so I'll just post up some interesting shit and by shit I mean some evidence against God. Not REAL evidence of course but something to think about.

It's a silly notion to think one can expect a logical proof of God's non-existence(although the hoary paradox of whether or not God can build a rock so big he can't move it does come close). Still, it is not necessary for the atheist to do this; for reasonable people, enough evidence to be persuasive should be adequate to enable them to reject most concepts of God, given the dearth of persuasive evidence on the other side.

Here are some lines of evidence:

1. The existence of non-believers. In a God created world, would non-belief even be possible?

2. The persistent and unrelieved suffering among all living things. One does not have to accept the existence of "evil" (nor try to explain it). Just the existence of suffering is enough.

3. The simple fact that all beings die. How could something eternal and perfect create mortal beings?

4. The ultimate randomness of all existence when viewed from the quantum level and the fact that the appearance of causality now seems to be no more than an illusion brought on by the law of large numbers (statistics).

Now obviously theists have answers to these points, but are the answers sufficient? Can we believe in something that has such basic problems with only mythical rationalizations to explain them away?

[Maniacc]

i respect that. i personally could find no purpose to live like that. it just isn't enough for me. nothing against you though i respect everyones beliefs.

how do you think it all and we all got here?
This post is what actually scares me about religion. The fact that you have to suck God's dick for all eternity just to have a purpose in life is retarded! Check this out and lemme know if it makes sense:

Truth: It ALWAYS leads to another question which leads to another truth, and so on. Truth is infinite.
Falseness/lies: Does not lead anywhere but a dead end.

Religious people always choose the second option.

Something I've also come up with is that people with an IQ over 100 automatically equals protection from organized religion.

[zimabog]

Truth: It ALWAYS leads to another question which leads to another truth, and so on. Truth is infinite.
Falseness/lies: Does not lead anywhere but a dead end.


i think truth can lead to not another question, but just to plain, unaltered fact. which can have a meaning that you can think about.



anyway, i think if there was some sort of intelligent omnipresent god with human like emotions, it would want to be humble, hidden... and not egotistic/narcissistic and wanting to be worshiped like the Abrahamic god.

like Islam has the meaning of "submission"... really? really? you think a god made you just so you can get on your knees 5 times a day and say its name? you might think Christianity or Judaism isnt like that.. well it is. its all about the egotistic/narcissistic man in the sky.

You would think something with such godlike powers would behave so... ungodly.
if there was an abrahamic type god, it would be most likely powerful enough to not have those selfish human emotions.

[zimabog]

double post

[Humphrizzle]

dont care.

i'll be dead.

[ahabion]

Understandably, you just posted to things to simply think about and wanted to reply with my thoughts. So, no means trying to argue, just simply putting my perspective on the questions.



Here are some lines of evidence:

1. The existence of non-believers. In a God created world, would non-belief even be possible?

Absolutely. Conscientiousness will always breed free will or choice. If we did not have choice, we would not be conscience of our being... essentially robots.


2. The persistent and unrelieved suffering among all living things. One does not have to accept the existence of "evil" (nor try to explain it). Just the existence of suffering is enough.

Not all suffering should be construed as being evil. Suffering can be also be constructive. In reference to the Bible, no where does it say if you believe God or Jesus, you will not suffer. (Although our culture and society has portrayed or trademarked it as such... such a thing is definitely false.)


3. The simple fact that all beings die. How could something eternal and perfect create mortal beings?

Same as 1. Choice.


4. The ultimate randomness of all existence when viewed from the quantum level and the fact that the appearance of causality now seems to be no more than an illusion brought on by the law of large numbers (statistics).

Same as 1. Choice.


Now obviously theists have answers to these points, but are the answers sufficient? Can we believe in something that has such basic problems with only mythical rationalizations to explain them away?
The Finite will NEVER fully comprehend what is Infinite. (Not just talking about God, but also such things like gravity, space (outter space), and the means of our own existence.) We can come up with theories or conjectures all we want... it doesn't change the universal truth of: No one really knows.

Arguement could be: if that is the case why believe in a religion, diety, or higher being? The opposite is potentially: Why not?

Boils back down number 1. Choice.

[Maniacc]

Absolutely. Conscientiousness will always breed free will or choice. If we did not have choice, we would not be conscience of our being... essentially robots.
Free will, ehh...


That just excuses God from all actions, and even excuses him from appearing to exist! His complete inaction in anything but the magical here-after is supposed to demonstrate love, while all it really demonstrates is a rationale for the obvious appearance that God is absent.

The problem is paradoxical anyway, since a truly free world and a truly omniscient God are mutually exclusive.

[sport_122]

To try to separate belief, faith, and science is funny to me.

Actually, it doesn't come down to choice. It comes down to revelation. The decisions we make are not decisions based on what we think is better. They are decisions based off of what has been revealed to us as the choice to take or the way to interpret something. So no matter what options are presented to you, because of factors predetermined, you will always go ONE specific way in any given situation which means that the idea of choice is an illusion to replace the concept of revelation when in actuality it is subject to it. This is one of the things that theists and non-theists will argue because the non-atheist would have to admit that revelation comes from somewhere or is granted or has some foundation in an eternal existence, which proves that there is more than us and our will.

revelation is the application of all the things we see and know and how we have come to understand them and it is fundamentally drawn from belief. It is the mental, internal system by which we make choices. If I only look at the data i could NEVER decide to do things one way or the other, I can only decide after I have weighed in what has been revealed to me as truth. I will only decide ONE way inevitably because only ONE way will meet the foundations of what has been revealed to me. Scientists respond to data because of what has been revealed to them.

Example: In science, what has been revealed is that when you throw something up it will come down. This revelation will assist in dictating what you will do when you have option to jump off the bridge or stay put. Even if you are bungee or skydiving you will still feel that thing that says "if you jump, you WILL fall." science did not tell us this. This entire thing existed long before the scientific method. And it is existing in all life I can think of.

My point is revelation existed before science because revelation is eternal and comes along with the territory for those who believe in an eternal, omnipotent God. Revelation is the foundation of science, logic, rational thinking and discernment and trying to have any of these things while ignoring revelation is foolish, which is why evolution is foolish. It tries to deny these thing their foundations, while granting it a power above the thing that gives it existence. Without an eternal, without an absolute, there is NO science, there is no law.

Think of something current. UFO's.(funny example) two people can look at the same photo or watch the same video or spectacle in the sky, whatever it is and come to different conclusions. This is because the foundation of ALL knowledge really lies in belief. What do you believe is happening when you see this going on. The scientist tries to act as if belief has nothing to do with it, but it does. Belief in the form of speculation is what drive scientist to ask questions in the first place...because they believe something is happening and they believe it can be explained. In the situation of UFO's there are numerous scientist who will say that there is no such thing unless it can be tested and proven. Therefore without the ability to reproduce those experiences then the events remain irrelevant to some in discussion of the phenomenon.

I have heard people argue that science is the reason that things are proven. Well the problem is that things were proven before science. Even in science itself there are laws. The rule for laws is that is has to be repeatable, it has to be something that can be demonstrated over and over again with the same results, but IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE EXPLAINABLE. This definition is a mirror of the definition of something that is absolute. so even the scientist who denies absolution, denies their own method of thinking and ignores the truth, that absolution precedes revelation which precedes belief, which precedes science, and they are all connected to an eternal source and choice is subject to them. ***also keep in mind that there are scientific LAWS that have been dis-proven and are still called LAWS (for those who think a human origin evolution is a proven LAW, it is NOT, which is another reason it is widely rejected by many non-religious scientists who look at the research)***

you could argue that people know things because they were taught. well when did the passing on of this knowledge start? The non-theist would say it started with science, but science started with belief, that came from revelation. so now we again are back to the beginning, and we land on something eternal.

All things when broken down come back to an absolute. All absolutes can only be defined by something that is never changing and forever existing, or eternal.