When you make good products, this economy is no big deal

[OnURleft]

to some extent...


Oh Mr. Obama, give us billions of tax dollars so we can continue to put out awful cars. :lmfao::lmfao:

Sorry..Just because you put out the most cars doesn't mean people want to buy them.

"While 2008 turned out to dismal year for many automakers, BMW's M division reported a 50 percent increase in sales compared to last year. A total of 24,186 M models were delivered to customers making 2008 the division's second best year in their 30 years of doing business.

The United States was once again the M division's largest market, followed by Germany and the UK. Elsewhere the company reported rapid growth in markets such as Canada, Italy, and Japan."

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090202.028/bmw-m-gmbh-car-sales-up-50-per-cent

[RL...]

I mean why do ppl need suv's as big as a suburban. Those things are huge!

[blacknightteg]

because in American most think bigger is better lol. wtf

[Sammich]

why do people NEED air condition in cars?

its a want, people have come accustomed to a/c..now they have become accustomed to larger vehicles...just the same way i want an avalanche, but dont need one is the same reason pple want a surburban, but dont need them.

but i must say...women need not drive large vehicles, neither old people.

[Sammich]

because in American most think bigger is better lol. wtf

i guess ur lackin huh:ninja:

[Sam C.]

Meh, OP your comparison is apples a oranges. Not to mention BMW released the new M3 with 3 variations in 2008. No surprise M sales jumped.

[OnURleft]

Meh, OP your comparison is apples a oranges. Not to mention BMW released the new M3 with 3 variations in 2008. No surprise M sales jumped.

Last I checked both were car makers, making cars, dealing with the economy and trying to sell appealing automotive products to consumers. Sounds like your just saying catchy phrases because you want to say a catchy phrase.

It almost doesn't matter that they released a new M3. They released a new M3 in 2001 and 1995. Sales are up 50% more then they have EVER been after the release of ANY M3 with America leading the way and our sluggish economy to boot. This includes the 95'-96' M3 which sold more units it's first year then the entire production of E30 M3's IIRC, and 2006 when the M5, M6, MZ3's all came out. To top it off they just ENDED production on the M roadster and Coupe and the M5/M6 range is coming close to their end.

[Frög]

I am so against the bailout!

This should be good, the bad companies that have bad internal and external management should go bankrupt! This is a cyclical filter, the good companies will prevail and new and better companies will emerge!!

aoewi[fnpaerwingfpawiuoergv i am so pissed....

[OnURleft]

I am so against the bailout!

This should be good, the bad companies that have bad internal and external management should go bankrupt! This is a cyclical filter, the good companies will prevail and new and better companies will emerge!!

aoewi[fnpaerwingfpawiuoergv i am so pissed....


I think the only good word for this is AMEN. Although the job loss would just be catastrophic.

[collins]

. Although the job loss would just be catastrophic. this is one of the most important points in your posts. it would affect us more than most ppl realize.

[alpine_aw11]

This is interesting to think about considering that even far cheaper and simpler cars, which one would think to have the jump in sales, can't do this. I mean hell you're dropping what, at least 50k on a new M series car. If they can increase sales with high-level cars during these times that says something imo.

[OneSlow5pt0]

but if u can buy a brand new M3,im sure ur not hurting to bad right now......compared to someone who buys a $14k impala.

now i agree,that GM has done some shitty thigns lately or more important the unions...

i mean GM still makes good cars,but they get overshadow by the mistakes they have made.

[2turbo4u]

G.M is still making horrible choices like putting out new SUV when then got so many with different names out there. Also they would kill a name that they put so much money into advertising dollars into. They would introduce a new vehicle to replace the outdated one, instead of just rebadging the new one. Also why get well known people to market your vehicle? Everyone knows Mary J, Blige don't drive a Chevy Transverse, Tiger Woods a Buick please. Just because they drive one that's never gonna get me to drive one because they get one for free.

[Frög]

Although the job loss would just be catastrophic.

It would, but which one is better in the long run? Obviously, short term this is the right thing..

I am convinced that no matter how much money we put into GM, it will still go bankrupt and we will have the same job-loss result except with a fatter debt..

Just like I am convinced that Iraq is a war that cannot be won no matter how much resources we put it..

Honestly, the way I see it, let them go bankrupt, all the old farts will be supported by the government which will cost less than the bailout, and all the young chumps with no jobs should join the military.. We will have a whole bunch of troops and might have a chance in the middle east..

But yeah, really just speaking out of my ass.. Letting everything go bankrupt and it's domino effect would be indeed catastrophic to our
economy..

I have mixed feeling about the bailout as a whole, considering all of its candidates except the automakers! Let them go, they are doomed..

[alpine_aw11]

but if u can buy a brand new M3,im sure ur not hurting to bad right now......compared to someone who buys a $14k impala.

now i agree,that GM has done some shitty thigns lately or more important the unions...

i mean GM still makes good cars,but they get overshadow by the mistakes they have made.

In times like these there will be a lot of people who have to give up buying their toys, whether it be a brand new M car or a new Civic. The price of the M series should really make sales suffer even more. I mean I'm not totally against American cars like most, there are many that I like, but if you sit in a new M3 and then go sit in an American competitor, the difference in quality and feel is pretty large.

[OneSlow5pt0]

In times like these there will be a lot of people who have to give up buying their toys, whether it be a brand new M car or a new Civic. The price of the M series should really make sales suffer even more. I mean I'm not totally against American cars like most, there are many that I like, but if you sit in a new M3 and then go sit in an American competitor, the difference in quality and feel is pretty large.

but what american car can u compare to a M3? only thing that comes to my mind is a CTS-V,which is far from a bad car.

[alpine_aw11]

but what american car can u compare to a M3? only thing that comes to my mind is a CTS-V,which is far from a bad car.

CTS-V really is the only one, and you don't see its sales jumping like this. They're great cars and all, but American interiors always find a way to feel cheap to me. My dad borrowed his bosses' to pick up some clients one day, and let me have a ride. Badass highway car, but put a M3 and a CTS-V on a road course and see what happens. We all have our preferences but I'd take the M over the Caddy anyday.

Does the CTS-V come with a stick?

[OneSlow5pt0]

CTS-V really is the only one, and you don't see its sales jumping like this. They're great cars and all, but American interiors always find a way to feel cheap to me. My dad borrowed his bosses' to pick up some clients one day, and let me have a ride. Badass highway car, but put a M3 and a CTS-V on a road course and see what happens. We all have our preferences but I'd take the M over the Caddy anyday.

and id take the caddy...but id take a benz over both.

the CTS-V is the only 4 door ever to run under 8 mins around the ring,so thats really good.

but like u said different strokes for different folks....thats why u drive a MR2 and i drive a Camaro.

[OnURleft]

And this just in....
"Although the automotive industry took one of its worst beatings in history last year, Mercedes-Benz performance division AMG has posted its best sales record yet.

AMG global sales were 24,200 for 2008, an increase of 19 percent over the previous year's 20,300.

The largest market for AMG was the United States, which accounted for 38 percent of all sales. The German market is AMG's second largest, accounting for 13 percent of total sales and where sales were up 34 percent over 2007."

[JITB]

I dont think you can judge the way the car market is going by the quality and reliability of american cars vs. other cars. Honda and toyota have suffereed big losses recently, does that mean they make bad cars? its just the level of pricing thats effecting the car business. American companies sell cheaper cars, people buy more cheaper cars than the more expensive cars. People buying AMGs and M cars, arent really hurting that bad obviously. you can get american made cars for reasonable affordable prices that appeal to more of the people that are struggling than the Ms and AMGs, its common economics..

All this shows is that the rich are getting richer.

[Sam C.]

Last I checked both were car makers, making cars, dealing with the economy and trying to sell appealing automotive products to consumers. Sounds like your just saying catchy phrases because you want to say a catchy phrase.

It almost doesn't matter that they released a new M3. They released a new M3 in 2001 and 1995. Sales are up 50% more then they have EVER been after the release of ANY M3 with America leading the way and our sluggish economy to boot. This includes the 95'-96' M3 which sold more units it's first year then the entire production of E30 M3's IIRC, and 2006 when the M5, M6, MZ3's all came out. To top it off they just ENDED production on the M roadster and Coupe and the M5/M6 range is coming close to their end.

LOL, last I checked GM would need to sell more than 24,000 units to survive. GM's average consumer can't afford an M-car and BMW's M division doesn't keep their lights. Like I said Apples and Oranges.

Please note my comments should not be viewed that I'm in favor of bailout, rather they are directed to your argument.

AbraCadabra Holmes

[atlxpat]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090203/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales

hyundai and subaru are the only 2 companies that made profit last year...
out of how many automakers, only 2? wow

[Deke]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090203/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales

hyundai and subaru are the only 2 companies that made profit last year...
out of how many automakers, only 2? wow

Lol, I was about to post this up too :D

PS, it's not necessarily that Subaru and Hyundai are the only companies making a profit. They're just the only two companies whose sale figures increased from last year. Or at least that's what I read on a quick glance.

[atlxpat]

Lol, I was about to post this up too :D

PS, it's not necessarily that Subaru and Hyundai are the only companies making a profit. They're just the only two companies whose sale figures increased from last year. Or at least that's what I read on a quick glance.

thats very true. it makes me smile to hear that subaru was one of the 2 companies to have done well...but at the same moment...it shows how far down the shitter the economy is

[EJ25RUN]

thats very true. it makes me smile to hear that subaru was one of the 2 companies to have done well...but at the same moment...it shows how far down the shitter the economy is
I think the Forester winning the Motor Trend SUV of the year award really helper.


Here's the whole list.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/03/by-the-numbers-january-2009-not-so-happy-new-year-edition/

[matthewAPM]

go subaru!

[OnURleft]

LOL, last I checked GM would need to sell more than 24,000 units to survive. GM's average consumer can't afford an M-car and BMW's M division doesn't keep their lights. Like I said Apples and Oranges.

Please note my comments should not be viewed that I'm in favor of bailout, rather they are directed to your argument.

AbraCadabra Holmes

Yes Apples and Oranges...... A Cadillac CTS is in no way comparable to a 335i. An STS-V is nothing like an M5 nor is a XLR anything like a Mercedes SL or a 6 series. The V series is just a badge, not something to compete with an M... That's leaving out Pontiac, Saab etc. a sport and luxury brand which also has dismal sales. If depreciation were something to compete for, I think anything GM could wave that flag of victory.
This "cheaper" market they sell to is trounced by the Japanese and there luxury car market is trounced by the Germans. They struggle to make a good car or two

[OneSlow5pt0]

Yes Apples and Oranges. A Cadillac CTS is in no way comparable to a 335i. An STS-V is nothing like an M5 nor is a XLR anything like a Mercedes SL or a 6 series. The V series is just a badge, not something to compete with an M... That's leaving out Pontiac, Saab etc. a sport and luxury brand which also has dismal sales. If depreciation were something to compete for I think anything GM could wave that flag of victory.
This "cheaper" market they sell to is trouned by the Japanese and there luxury car market is trounced by the Germans. They don't make good products.

what u talking bout the CTS-V is faster than the M3 and M5 around the ring,its the 1st sedan to run under 8mins.

i like some BMWs,but maybe i wrong...but its sounds like your saying the CTS-V is below M cars.

[OnURleft]

what u talking bout the CTS-V is faster than the M3 and M5 around the ring,its the 1st sedan to run under 8mins.

i like some BMWs,but maybe i wrong...but its sounds like your saying the CTS-V is below M cars.

Sarcasm. They have an extremely large market made for direct comparison to M vehicles specifically, as does BMW have an extremely large market of cheap cars in Europe like GM does here. Apples and Oranges my ass.

In light of that it needed 556HP and wider tires to run 2-3 seconds faster then the 6 speed M with 140 less HP. Supposedly the new 7 speed gearbox is suppose to drop 5-10 seconds..

[Sam C.]

Clearly you don't understand the issues GM is facing. Selling an additional 8,000 cars or 50% better than the year before will do squat to save them. GM issue isn't selling cars their issue controlling the costs associated with manufacturing cars.

GM sold 8.36 million units last year just under Toyota who sold 8.97 million units. So by your argument the 50% growth in the M sales or 8,000 units would equate to 0.1% growth in sales.

It is clear this thread and you argument are based on your personal opinion of GM rather than the facts associated with the problems GM is facing.

[DinanM3atl]

I don't know if I agree to what this is.

AMG and M Division up? In early 2008 we were still riding the bubble. Maybe middle class were pretending to upper class and buying up these cars. Add that on top of the potential buyers unaffected by the economy and you have your biggest year ever.

BMW overall is reporting HUGE drop in sales RIGHT NOW. I would expect to see some of those "Huge rebates, employee pricing and 0% BMW financing soon".

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=a5_3dTW_IQnM&refer=europe

Look at those sales numbers in terms of percent drop. I know how many cars United Roswell sold last month. Not going to post it but it is a HUGE drop compared to the 24% in the article above.

[OnURleft]

Clearly you don't understand the issues GM is facing. Selling an additional 8,000 cars or 50% better than the year before will do squat to save them. GM issue isn't selling cars their issue controlling the costs associated with manufacturing cars.

GM sold 8.36 million units last year just under Toyota who sold 8.97 million units. So by your argument the 50% growth in the M sales or 8,000 units would equate to 0.1% growth in sales.

It is clear this thread and you argument are based on your personal opinion of GM rather than the facts associated with the problems GM is facing.

I do understand the issue and I see where you are coming from. It just is not apples to oranges. They are direct competitors and are marketing to the same people (for the most part but obviously not trucks and uber cheap sup compacts via Kia). BMW sold several millions of units as well, although they are not experiencing huge losses and bankruptcy!!! Sales have slowed for every car maker, but I.M.O products like AMG and M have only proven how good these brands really are in a more challenging market.

[DinanM3atl]

I do understand the issue and I see where you are coming from. It just is not apples to oranges. They are direct competitors and are marketing to the same people (for the most part but obviously not trucks and uber cheap sup compacts via Kia). BMW sold several millions of units as well, although they are not experiencing huge losses and bankruptcy!!! Sales have slowed for every car maker, but I.M.O products like AMG and M have only proven how good these brands really are in a more challenging market.

It is not really a fair comparison.

Someone shopping for a 20-30K General Motors product in a GOOD economy probaby lost their job and is HURTING BAD! Really bad.

Someone shopping for a 70-100K AMG or BMW M was also shopping for it before this bad economy and in reality probably has not lost his job and has financial security if they did.

Again, BMW sales globally are down ~25%. M sales I bet are down even more than that.

[OnURleft]

It is not really a fair comparison.

Someone shopping for a 20-30K General Motors product in a GOOD economy probaby lost their job and is HURTING BAD! Really bad.

Someone shopping for a 70-100K AMG or BMW M was also shopping for it before this bad economy and in reality probably has not lost his job and has financial security if they did.

Again, BMW sales globally are down ~25%. M sales I bet are down even more than that.

True but we have to look outside of America. We are not the worlds only consumers. In Europe, for the most part, the economy is not the best but it's still thriving and GM is struggling despite what they are trying to sell and they are a direct competitor in the small relatively inexpensive (20-35k) car market. BMW's U.S sales are down but they are not experiencing global failure because of it . GM is selling Vauxhauls (sp?) and what not that are perfectly compatible to BMW 316-318-320i's which are like Camry's over there.

[DinanM3atl]

GM wasn't selling cars in Europe before though. Ford owns Europe.

[OnURleft]

GM wasn't selling cars in Europe before though. Ford owns Europe.

Ford owns Europe because they are producing better cars. Like BMW, people actually want to buy them. Even J. Clarkson let his garage get filled up by a Ford Badge!!! Euro spec'd Mondeo sports and Focus' are competitors to basic 3 and 1 series cars and are an awesome alternative to an extent.
Whether it's a U.S spec Malibu or a Euro Vauxhaul VXR, they are just rubbish compared to a 3 series, or an A4, Mercedes C200 or even a Mondeo. Some argue these terrible cars are one of the MANY reasons why they struggle when our economy (full of ignorant people just buying American to buy American) aren't buying and people who actually appreciate better products are buying the better alternatives.

[JITB]

Ford owns Europe because they are producing better cars. Like BMW, people actually want to buy them. Even J. Clarkson let his garage get filled up by a Ford Badge!!! Euro spec'd Mondeo sports and Focus' are competitors to basic 3 and 1 series cars and are an awesome alternative to an extent.
Whether it's a U.S spec Malibu or a Euro Vauxhaul VXR, they are just rubbish compared to a 3 series, or an A4, Mercedes C200 or even a Mondeo. Some argue these terrible cars are one of the MANY reasons why they struggle when our economy (full of ignorant people just buying American to buy American) aren't buying and people who actually appreciate better products are buying the better alternatives.

Your comparing high performing cars to regular cars. You have a 1 series that starts out at what 25-30k? Why buy the 1 series, when u can get a car half the price with the same options. There are shitty cars.. but ive always stuck by the rule you treat a car good it will last forever. You have escorts with 500k, and civics with 500k... you have civics that are a pain in the ass and break consantly.. you have escorts that do the same. My neighbor works on european cars mainly Bmws and a few benzs. but i see the cars all the time with the same issues that everyone else has. And they squeak, and leak, and break down just as much. because people dont take care of them.

Also people are just gonna buy what they can afford, M's and amg's cost more in the states. And also the euro fords are all homegrown, so they support their cars, like the US supports their cars. LIke japan supports their own brand. its not because they dont like fords/gm overseas, its just a different type of cars they prefer over seas. And its part of the reason we dont see alot of models in the states.

mondeo chassis has been in the us for the longest since the contour, and with the 6. and the focus has been a euro ford since it came to the states. a euro ford may perform and look better.

Granted they are better perfoming euro fords, than what we get over here. When it comes down to it, its the same car.

[speedminded]

I dont think you can judge the way the car market is going by the quality and reliability of american cars vs. other cars. Honda and toyota have suffereed big losses recently, does that mean they make bad cars? its just the level of pricing thats effecting the car business. American companies sell cheaper cars, people buy more cheaper cars than the more expensive cars. People buying AMGs and M cars, arent really hurting that bad obviously. you can get american made cars for reasonable affordable prices that appeal to more of the people that are struggling than the Ms and AMGs, its common economics..

All this shows is that the rich are getting richer.How are Corvette's sales doing the past year?

[DinanM3atl]

How are Corvette's sales doing the past year?

I am sure terrible. I have been preaching that GM needs to offer just one corvette. It comes with a 400hp engine and a manual or auto. No options and certainly no ZR1 that will COST them more money to make and claim all the praise then they will EVER make back on sales.




Ian, you mention the Malibu. The newest one is a GOOD car. No one will give it a chance because everyone is riding the GM is shit bandwagon. It is not their fault they are riding the bangwagon as it is warranted. However the car is a decent ride.


I still won't agree with you though overall. BMW makes good cars. Great. However claiming that M Cars and AMG cars are so amazing is well and true but it certainly will not keep them afloat. The performance cars have dropped in sales as well. Those looking to spend that kind of money could have spent it before or after the economy tanked.

[OnURleft]

How are Corvette's sales doing the past year?

Sure as hell won't save them, and actually not that great. The margin for profit on a Vette is not that high, and they are not making enough good cars to keep them afloat to produce cars like Z06's which don't make much money, but people want because they are cheap and are really just awesome cars.

[JITB]

Sure as hell won't save them, and actually not that great. The margin for profit on a Vette is not that high, and they are not making enough good cars to keep them afloat to produce cars like Z06's which don't make much money, but people want because they are cheap and are really just awesome cars.

cars like corvettes dont save companies at all. They are always made at a loss.. and usually are made when the company is doing well. Or trying to start something new, and they start form the top and go down. Impalas/monte carlos/cobalts/ silverados are gms cash cows. it seems like you are seeing car buying as if everyone wants the best car that performs on a track or in the 1/4 mile. people want a good car, that runs, and looks nice, lap times..Hp, skid pad, weight. is all second when it comes to the types of buyers that Gm/Ford gets. Truth is the whole automotive industry is hurting really bad.. No one is buying new cars.. people are wanting used cars, because they are the most economical way to go.

[OnURleft]

cars like corvettes dont save companies at all. They are always made at a loss.. and usually are made when the company is doing well. Or trying to start something new, and they start form the top and go down. Impalas/monte carlos/cobalts/ silverados are gms cash cows. it seems like you are seeing car buying as if everyone wants the best car that performs on a track or in the 1/4 mile. people want a good car, that runs, and looks nice, lap times..Hp, skid pad, weight. is all second when it comes to the types of buyers that Gm/Ford gets. Truth is the whole automotive industry is hurting really bad.. No one is buying new cars.. people are wanting used cars, because they are the most economical way to go.


Sure as hell won't save them, and actually not that great. The margin for profit on a Vette is not that high

......

Yes your exactly right. When people buy 320i's, 518's,C180's and A4 1.6's or 116i's (millions of which that are sold annually) they are specifically looking into it's 1/4 mile time...Again, sarcasm.
Any smart buyer is going to be concerned about the performance aspect of the car to some degree. Like I said earlier, there are tons of ignorant and patriotic people buying American to buy American in support of their country, but when the economy gets tough, smarter consumers with money for a new car are buying the better brands that are not hurting as bad.


Ian, you mention the Malibu. The newest one is a GOOD car. No one will give it a chance because everyone is riding the GM is shit bandwagon. It is not their fault they are riding the bangwagon as it is warranted. However the car is a decent ride.

Couldn't agree with you more. It is a great car, my uncle who has owned some amazing GM muscle cars (different GTO's, 700whp W30 442, all GM products) and currently drives and SRT-8 300C brought a fully loaded V6 home on a 24hr test drive. To the average consumer it would be hard to tell this car came from the same people who made the Century, Aztec, or Grand Prix (the list goes on) but it still had some typical American quality traits you could pick up. All in all, was it worth its 40 grand asking price??? Nah. Is it a great car after you consider all the rebates GM will give you just to take it off the lot? Yes.

[JITB]

. Like I said earlier, there are tons of ignorant and patriotic people buying American to buy American in support of their country, but when the economy gets tough, smarter consumers with money for a new car are buying the better brands that are not hurting as bad.



you are being just as ignorant. just because people are brand loyal to a company that is the foundation. for almost all car companies. makes them ignorant? you aren't stating any facts your just giving opinions. if your gonna base this debate on performance and lap times. does this mean the cobalt is better than everything above it on the ring times?

[DinanM3atl]

you are being just as ignorant. just because people are brand loyal to a company that is the foundation. for almost all car companies. makes them ignorant? you aren't stating any facts your just giving opinions. if your gonna base this debate on performance and lap times. does this mean the cobalt is better than everything above it on the ring times?

I would say being stubborn :) He loves BMW and I think Audi...


Saying that you are ignorant because you don't care about a cars performance is kind of dumb. Some people REALLY don't care. My mom wanted a larger sedan and she has always had Mercedes. She does not care about the cars performance at all. The only reason why she got the V8 and Sport Package is because that made other items that she wanted STANDARD and thus cheaper than the e320 overall. She would drive an E Class with a 4 cylinder Diesel. She doesn't care at all and my mom is not ignorant.

My dad gets a company car and he chose the Grand Prix GTP because of all the options(for the company car) given it came standard with a Sunroof. He could careless that is is the 'cool' performance version. Is he ignorant also because he picked one with a sunroof?

Ian I think you are missing the point here. Rich people were buying AMG and M cars before. The economy is not affecting those buyers nearly as much. There are some guys that actually were fronting as upper class so those guys are possible selling their AMG and M cars. Hell Porsche sales are down 13% in January.

When your LARGEST customer base is lower and mid class and the economy tanks you are looking at BIG sales drop. The lower class could barely buy a car when they were working 40 hours a week AND were allowed to get up to 15 hours overtime. Now they are dropped to 30 hours a week and many lost their job.

The middle class that was splurging on a new car every 2 or 3 years is now forced to keep driving a car they own. They are not buying luxury goods. If they need a car they are not currently at BMW shopping for an M3 Sedan.

It is just not a fair comparison to say that BMW M sales and AMG are doing fine but GM sucks.