Auto Bailout?

[Alan®]

How do the rest of Ya'll feel about it?

Personally, I say fuck em. We just gave out $700 billion and they haven't even spent that yet.

[EJ25RUN]

"Let Detroit Go Bankrupt"

[SL65AMG]

either way we are paying for their loss. bankruptcy isnt free and those debts dont just disappear. taxpayers foot the bill for it. also it will cost a hell of a lot more than 25 billion to pay for their bankruptcy than to give it to them up front. but on the other hand, i dont agree because we dont have the money to bail them out but its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont.

[TIGERJC]

well if we're bailing out the banks , why not the big 3. More ppl will lose their jobs if the big three goes down than any bank. I still believe we shouldn't have bailed any of those compaines out to begin with, but if we bail one out then we should bail others out too

[Alan®]

well if we're bailing out the banks , why not the big 3. More ppl will lose their jobs if the big three goes down than any bank. I still believe we shouldn't have bailed any of those compaines out to begin with, but if we bail one out then we should bail others out too
Why because it's only fair?

I find it funny that we have foreign auto makers here in this country that can build and assemble cars here and ship them back to the EU and they aren't running back to the German, Japanese, Korean Govt's begging for money. Obviously the way that the companies are structured, doing business isn't working. The big Three are big through 2 billion a piece A MONTH. Also did you know that GM is paying more people through pensions than they currently employ? Add in the fact that the Unions won't even negotiate with the Big 3 and we end up where we are right now.

Sorry just because we gave out $700 Billion to companies that shouldn't have got it in the first place doesn't mean we should just continue handing out money because we can.

[TIGERJC]

Why because it's only fair?

I find it funny that we have foreign auto makers here in this country that can build and assemble cars here and ship them back to the EU and they aren't running back to the German, Japanese, Korean Govt's begging for money. Obviously the way that the companies are structured, doing business isn't working. The big Three are big through 2 billion a piece A MONTH. Also did you know that GM is paying more people through pensions than they currently employ? Add in the fact that the Unions won't even negotiate with the Big 3 and we end up where we are right now.

Sorry just because we gave out $700 Billion to companies that shouldn't have got it in the first place doesn't mean we should just continue handing out money because we can.
I believe congress approved 700 billion in bailout, like it or not the money will be spent on compaines. I think that money should have went to buiulding up u.s. infrastructures and also develop our own energy. But b/c that money will not be used I rather that money go to a industry that really needs the help, b/c a lot of people will be affected if they go under. Also more gov't oversight will come with the bailout which will hopefully stop this from happening again

[Alan®]

I believe congress approved 700 billion in bailout, like it or not the money will be spent on compaines. I think that money should have went to buiulding up u.s. infrastructures and also develop our own energy. But b/c that money will not be used I rather that money go to a industry that really needs the help, b/c a lot of people will be affected if they go under. Also more gov't oversight will come with the bailout which will hopefully stop this from happening again
Your explination makes no sense. You do realize that any "oversight" made over money lent to corporations still doesn't effect how the company is run or how it is structured it just makes sure that the money doesnt go to places it shouldn't it still doesn't fix the underlying root problem of the fact that whatever business plant that a company is using doesn't work. If that's what you want let's just spend all our money for the next 2 decades and buy up every major corporation and run them. :rolleyes:

Cause that would really work considering Social Security prolly won't be around for either of us.

I agree with you the money should have been spent internally.

Does it suck that people are losing their jobs? Yes but what good does it to do to just keep throwing good money after bad meanwhile nothing changes.

[TIGERJC]

Your explination makes no sense. You do realize that any "oversight" made over money lent to corporations still doesn't effect how the company is run or how it is structured it just makes sure that the money doesnt go to places it shouldn't it still doesn't fix the underlying root problem of the fact that whatever business plant that a company is using doesn't work. If that's what you want let's just spend all our money for the next 2 decades and buy up every major corporation and run them. :rolleyes:

Cause that would really work considering Social Security prolly won't be around for either of us.

I agree with you the money should have been spent internally.

Does it suck that people are losing their jobs? Yes but what good does it to do to just keep throwing good money after bad meanwhile nothing changes.
Nothing really to agrue about, I didn't support the bailout from day one (could expalin why I suck at explaining it) and you can look up my early post. I find it funny that politcians asked for 850 billion and I still believe they don't know where to spend it at. There is no real plan for the money and which only makes me more anger that the 850 billion passed with know real plan on how to use it. Screw both parties and f Bush for hurrying that bill threw the house and onto the senate. I don't support stimlus checks and bail out packages, it only hurts the country later.

[Alan®]

LOL. Speaking of oversight I almost forgot.

http://harpers.org/archive/2008/11/hbc-90003837


Party leaders on Capitol Hill were supposed to name a special oversight commission to check how the bailout was using its legal authorities, according to the law. But over a month has passed without a single name put forward.

[bafbrian]

Let them fail. They have failed to innovate over the last 20+ years and now feel that taxpayers should pay for there failures. Honestly, if you look at a GM (Chevy) 305ci or 350ci engine from the 70's and the ones of the late 90's, before the switch to the 327ci engine, there is no innovation there. The same applies to Ford's 302ci or 351ci engines and same applies to Chrysler engines (2.5L 4cyl or 4.0 6cyl or 5.9l 8cyl) There is no innovation.

I will agree with redGT on saying let them fail. If they would have spent all this time trying to make their product more marketable to the public instead of just turning a profit, they wouldn't be in this mess. The best examples of innovation come from foreign car companies.

Let them fail and relearn what it takes to make a business successful.

PS - I know both GM and Ford have been in business for over 100 years, however, the market changes and businesses must adapt, they haven't.

[EJ25RUN]

The easiest example is Nissan bankruptcy 10 years ago. They hire Carlos Ghosn and he turns them into an ultra profitable company.

GM needs to realize that selling 6 of the exact same car with different badging isn't gonna work in a world with common sense and the lie that is "buy American" isn't working anymore. Especially when the laid off GM auto workers go to the Nissan, Toyota, Kia, BMW, Mercedes, Subaru, and Honda plants to seek work and build Japanese cars stateside.

[Barefoot]

i say fuck them on 1 hand on the other. something has to happen, if they go down lost of jobs go with them. im at the point were im getting ready to ask for a 10 billion dollar bailout for myself and go on vaction.

[EJ25RUN]

i say fuck them on 1 hand on the other. something has to happen, if they go down lost of jobs go with them.

read my post. Job security is not a guarantee in life.

[Barefoot]

read my post. Job security is not a guarantee in life.thats very true this day in age. people getting laid off from companys they been with for 20+ years.

[DrivenMind]

They should have invested more time and effort in innovation, and advancing their product, instead of bullshit patriotic marketing schemes, and ways to sell the same shitty car under different brand names.

Their products have been garbage for decades now, and now the very people who don't want to buy their shitty products anymore are supposed to cover the bill to keep them from going under? I think not. You keep a business afloat by offering a competitive product. All the big 3 had to do was open a single car magazine in the past twenty years, to know where they were falling short.

[alpine_aw11]

Believe me, this is going to happen. Probably exactly how the first bailout happened. It gets voted down, but then special interest groups that have their dicks in Washington's ass get involved, regardless of their relevance to the plan, and all of a sudden it gets approved. Funny how the first bailout didn't pass until another 150 billion was added, and that extra money isn't going to any troubled lending company.

[OneSlow5pt0]

i wouldnt call them garbage

corvette,CTS,G8,GTO,camaro,mustang,sky,cobalt ss are fine cars for wat they are....but most of thier cars are shit

personlly my camaro is the only GM id buy and reason i have it is because,i like how it looks,i like how it drives,i like the torque,i like ttops,i like how easy it is to mod them and for not much money,how reiable it is and gas milage it gets..

but if i get something else id deff upgrade to GTO,SL500 or 540

[silversol]

has every one in america lost there heads! let the big three fall are you guys fucking stupid! this is part of the problem in america just tell every one to go fuck themselfs! do you guys realise how many jobs would be lost? not just from the big three but the mile long list of smaller companys that supply the big three! the economy is tanking because people dont have jobs! people are not spending money because of it! we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!

[Barefoot]

we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!afuckinggree

[JITB]

I say yes, b/c if any of those companies go under..its gonna affect everyone. those companies keep the US alive.

[bafbrian]

has every one in america lost there heads! let the big three fall are you guys fucking stupid! this is part of the problem in america just tell every one to go fuck themselfs! do you guys realise how many jobs would be lost? not just from the big three but the mile long list of smaller companys that supply the big three! the economy is tanking because people dont have jobs! people are not spending money because of it! we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!

Foreign carmarkers already know that; that is why they build plants in the US to avoid the taxes and at the same time, still produce a better quality automobile for lower cost.

It is time for the Big 3 to open their eyes to what the market wants instead of rebranding vehicles. Innovation breeds success, just ask the foreign carmarkers.

[Alan®]

has every one in america lost there heads! let the big three fall are you guys fucking stupid! this is part of the problem in america just tell every one to go fuck themselfs! do you guys realise how many jobs would be lost? not just from the big three but the mile long list of smaller companys that supply the big three! the economy is tanking because people dont have jobs! people are not spending money because of it! we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!
Wow seriously? :thinking: Think about this for one second.

1. The Big Three are no longer making money
2. Because of this they are laying off people
3. They are no longer making money because people aren't buying their shit for 2 reasons
1. Their products are no longer competitive
2. The Economy is down the tubes

With that said answer me this....

How does throwing $25 Billion dollars of Tax Payer money fix 3 Companies that are no longer competitive because

1. The business model that they are using has them burning through billions A MONTH.

2. Their products are no where near as competitive as others.

Prime example. Look at the new mustang coming out. The car has been out 45 years and still doesn't have a Independent rear suspension? Why in the last 5 years as other cars in the same price range does it still not have Brembo's? Why in the world would anybody spend $37K on a fully loaded V8 Mustang that makes 325 and gets 23 MPG HWY.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU BUY IT?!?!?!

When for the same money you could get a 335i. Has 300hp. Gets 30MPG HWY. Has a Independent rear suspension. Has run flats. And when you grab something inside it doesn't feel so damn cheap.

Seriously the quality of the products the Big 3 make is crap compared to European and Japanese cars.

And your Idea to tax, tariff them to make buying American the only solution si ridiculous. You do realize, BMW, Subaru, Toyota, Kia are all foreign car companies with Plants right here in the U.S. employing American workers. You're so worried about workers what do you think those companies will do when their products don't sell? LAY OFF AMERICAN WORKERS.

BTW they tried this cockamanie idea back in the Colonial days and guess what happened? They figured out ways to get the better products in under the radar because even though the local product was cheaper it still didn't change the fact that the local product WAS SHIT.

So to summarize.

We have a failing Economy, Credit Lenders tightening tighter than a virgin. And you want us to throw MORE tax payer dollars at a company with a failing business plan simply to save jobs. Yet.....(and this is what I find amusing)you want us to tax the fuck out of foreign automakers who HIRE AMERICAN WORKERS.

Throwing our money at a company will not fix anything. The government can give them the money and say "Here's what you can do and here's what you can't do". It can't go in and tell the company how to restructure it so that it can be competitive and do what you want ultimately which is to prosper, grow, hire more people, pay more taxes.

What the government can do, is tell them "Nope sorry, no can do". You know what will happen? The wheels inside people's heads will start turning and a fire will get lit under someones ass and they will figure out how to make the problem work. But ultimately the products also need to become better. And that will take 5 years.

[lovinmydodge]

In the efforts that people are putting in for these "companys" to continue operating they could turn some of the ideas that they have and use them. The auto company is looking for money 25 billion and that money isn't to bail them out of anything. If you read the fine print of why they want the money is to pay for their people who are collecting pensions. Not to keep them afloat, but only to pay the amount of money they owe. Something that they are unable to turn into a profit. This problem is only going to grow if we do indeed give them the money they are asking for. Because we will only allow the company to continue paying these people and more people will retire and then we will be in even bigger shit. I say they figure out how to pay the people they currently employ less. The import industries here in the US pay their employees almost half of what the "America" indust. pays its employees. That is the biggest problem is we pay twice the annul income and when the company can pay some guy in mexico say 20 dollars a day for work and here in the states pay someone 75+ dollars an hour and we wonder why they outsource all these jobs. Hell if I were in charge of the comp. I would do the same thing. People here are way to greedy to understand that in order to keep their job they will have to take some burden on their shoulders too! now tell me what you all think about that!@

[Alan®]

In the efforts that people are putting in for these "companys" to continue operating they could turn some of the ideas that they have and use them. The auto company is looking for money 25 billion and that money isn't to bail them out of anything. If you read the fine print of why they want the money is to pay for their people who are collecting pensions. Not to keep them afloat, but only to pay the amount of money they owe. Something that they are unable to turn into a profit. This problem is only going to grow if we do indeed give them the money they are asking for. Because we will only allow the company to continue paying these people and more people will retire and then we will be in even bigger shit. I say they figure out how to pay the people they currently employ less. The import industries here in the US pay their employees almost half of what the "America" indust. pays its employees. That is the biggest problem is we pay twice the annul income and when the company can pay some guy in mexico say 20 dollars a day for work and here in the states pay someone 75+ dollars an hour and we wonder why they outsource all these jobs. Hell if I were in charge of the comp. I would do the same thing. People here are way to greedy to understand that in order to keep their job they will have to take some burden on their shoulders too! now tell me what you all think about that!@

Robbie, welcome to the forums. Hope you become active on here.

Anyways GOOD FUCKING POINT. God I almost forgot about the whole pension thing.That's another god damn problem. The unions won't even talk about negotiating something much less meet them at the negotiating table. If they would sit down and talk to the corporations this would take a HUGE load off the corporations backs.

[bandydesign]

Wow seriously? :thinking: Think about this for one second.

1. The Big Three are no longer making money
This is true.

2. Because of this they are laying off people
Also true.

3. They are no longer making money because people aren't buying their shit for 2 reasons
1. Their products are no longer competitive
Yes, but this is turning around. Look at the new Impala from Chevrolet. It won car of the year with a beautiful interior, clean exterior and a tried and true drivetrain - sounds like the right direction.

2. The Economy is down the tubes
Of course, this is hurting everyone.

With that said answer me this....

How does throwing $25 Billion dollars of Tax Payer money fix 3 Companies that are no longer competitive because

1. The business model that they are using has them burning through billions A MONTH.
They are in big trouble right now!

2. Their products are no where near as competitive as others.
Already mentioned

Prime example. Look at the new mustang coming out. The car has been out 45 years and still doesn't have a Independent rear suspension? Why in the last 5 years as other cars in the same price range does it still not have Brembo's? Why in the world would anybody spend $37K on a fully loaded V8 Mustang that makes 325 and gets 23 MPG HWY.
I for one do not understand this move at all. The car has not really changed, yet they have sunk major $$ into marketing and promotion of this new year model. They are tight on money right now! They are paying their marketing guys pretty well and somebody there has thought this through. Maybe this jolt in hype of the Mustang will boost sales numbers in a critical time. Maybe not, but what other options do they have?

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU BUY IT?!?!?!
on IMPULSE! The beautiful tool of the marketer :)

When for the same money you could get a 335i. Has 300hp. Gets 30MPG HWY. Has a Independent rear suspension. Has run flats. And when you grab something inside it doesn't feel so damn cheap.
You just outlined what NEEDS to change!

Seriously the quality of the products the Big 3 make is crap compared to European and Japanese cars.
atm, yes! its not good!

And your Idea to tax, tariff them to make buying American the only solution si ridiculous. You do realize, BMW, Subaru, Toyota, Kia are all foreign car companies with Plants right here in the U.S. employing American workers. You're so worried about workers what do you think those companies will do when their products don't sell? LAY OFF AMERICAN WORKERS.
Very strong point, the big 3 are not American companies because they employ Americans, they are American companies because they are owned by Americans. So these changes you guys are proposing are shooting at the wrong targets.

BTW they tried this cockamanie idea back in the Colonial days and guess what happened? They figured out ways to get the better products in under the radar because even though the local product was cheaper it still didn't change the fact that the local product WAS SHIT.
True that

So to summarize.

We have a failing Economy, Credit Lenders tightening tighter than a virgin. And you want us to throw MORE tax payer dollars at a company with a failing business plan simply to save jobs.
YES view note #4
Yet.....(and this is what I find amusing)you want us to tax the fuck out of foreign automakers who HIRE AMERICAN WORKERS.
"Shooting at the wrong target" as mentioned before

Throwing our money at a company will not fix anything. The government can give them the money and say "Here's what you can do and here's what you can't do". It can't go in and tell the company how to restructure it so that it can be competitive and do what you want ultimately which is to prosper, grow, hire more people, pay more taxes.
View note #4

What the government can do, is tell them "Nope sorry, no can do". You know what will happen? The wheels inside people's heads will start turning and a fire will get lit under someones ass and they will figure out how to make the problem work. But ultimately the products also need to become better. And that will take 5 years.
Oh nooo! It will take far longer than one design cycle unless... (note #3)


Note #1:

The automakers are in trouble BECAUSE of the economy. They weren't making awesome cars that outsold everybody a minute ago before the economy took a turn for the worse. No, it is just now so plain and obvious. So now their unfocused round-about methodology and company structures are showing their true colors and they are not pretty. The automakers are being put to the test right now.

Note #2: The Problem

can be summarized with one word. Politics. Here in the free world we have some expectations to fill. We must appease our customers and employees. What do they want? Well, they want security in static regulations. Lock me down on guarantees! So back in the day when the industries were harmful towards the employees there was need for some action against this. Enter the UNIONS! Woohoo! Now we have a big force to stand up for us employees while we are oppressed. Times have changed and the original intention of this action has been lost in smoke. Now we have huge loop holes to weaken and threatin automakers particularly. The leverage these Unions have on the automakers is unreal! This isn't the whole bit bout politics, but I will not go into the others.

Note #3: The Solution

well, no one knows the solution, but here is my thought. The automakers are hurting right now in particular(note #1). As is all of America. The problem with the companies is their structure. So, the solution to that in my opinion is to corner them into having to restructure.
This means:
1) They fall
2) They ask for help
3) They recieve help and in return allow for some regulated restructuring
My thoughts on this is through bankruptcy
Bankruptcy eliminates unions from the equasion. cite: Delta airlines chapter 13
I do not know the details of how they can turn around and restructure, but here are my concerns:
1) They need to do a proper job of restructuring to allow for a better product (more competitive)
2) They do not sacrifice too much control to the gov't

Note #4: What do we do now?

GIVE THEM THE BAILOUT!

But you said they need to go under and restructure!:eek:

Yes, you heard me right. The automakers MUST restructure, but why now? They are supporting alot of jobs along side the foreign automakers in the US. Maybe now is not the opportune time to drop that much American industry.

Key point here: The bailout will not solve the underlying problem. It will put it off! I know all about this, I am a procrastinator ;)

So when do we need to allow them to get back on their feet on their own, rather than picking them up? How 'bout in the rehab facility, not the battlefield amidst gunfire.

[Alan®]

I'm gonna start at the top and work my way down.

The Impala in my opinion is a step in the right direction but the Big 3 have a looooooooooooong way to go. You say you don't think they can turn it around in one design cycle but, me being an optomist when it comes to cars I think they can.

Impulse is part of why we are where we are right now. I think after this people are going to be MUCH smarter buyers which means that all sectors of the market become more competitive.

Response to Note 1:

They are in trouble because of a big combination of things The Economy, The pensions, The Unions(you could roll them into one big ball), The credit markets tightening up etc. But like I have been saying they simply aren't competitive they have been slowly been losing their grip on the market for the last few years. No one can deny that. The numbers don't lie.

Response to Note #2

You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it better. The unions pretty much IMHO need to be shown the door. It's amazing what Unions get away with. Not just in the Auto industry but look at any industry that has them. If Wal-Mart gets unionized you think shit will continue to stay cheap and they will still be competitive? Highly unlikely.

Response to Note #3 and #4

I rolled these two into one for two reasons:
1.I'm tired
2.You answered your own questons right here.


So, the solution to that in my opinion is to corner them into having to restructure.

We have them right where we want them. You asked why do it in now? Because like you said right now we are in a battle to stay alive.

Think of it like this. You are a company in the middle of an economic down turn. There is nothing you can do about the fact that people are buying. But, you know things are gonna rebound. So what do you do? You start looking at ways to cut costs, do things better. But more importantly(if you're smart anyways)you look to the future. Cause when the economy bounces back you wanna come out swinging and start making up for all the down time. The last thing you wanna be doing is reorganizing an entire company during a HUGE economic upswing. Cause when it goes back down that just means less money to operate on while you're waiting on it to bounce back.

Anyways I'm hitting the sack.

[_Christian_]

The only way for these companies to succeed is to go bankrupt, thus being forced to restructure, make better business decisions, and hopefully learn some accountability. Throwing money at the problem is only going to delay the inevitable. Since when is it the governments job to interfere with the free market anyways? If the big 3 can't get their shit together, let those with new/better ideas take their place.

[AirMax95]

Here is my take.

I agree with Red GT to the extent that "Giving" them the money will not teach them ANYTHING. If they can't sit down and restructure their business plan, they do not need a bail out. Also, if we let them fail, I think that our global presence would be effected also.

I also agree with Silver Sol. All the small parts manufactures that supply the big 3 will feel this effect also. That would equate to MORE lost jobs. Losing the Big 3 would crush us. The amount of loss jobs would be the beginning of a new poverty epidemic in America. With that said, unless someone has an idea to start a new auto maker, we need the big 3.

About the pension payouts: I read that also. It does put a damper on profits b/c they are STILL paying out too much money. Even still, their sales have been suffering. Suffering sales is hurting more than the auto makers are telling. Pension is the easiest to put out there, because it directly relates to the people.

Bottom line, because I am a "nice" guy, we do need to save them, but I disagree with just "Giving" them the money. They need to get a bunch of MBA industry experts to sit down and come up with a new business strategy, even if it mean mimicking the Japanese auto makers.

Shit, I am writing a letter for a $50,000 bailout for myself, lol. Its worth a try!

[EJ25RUN]

has every one in america lost there heads! let the big three fall are you guys fucking stupid! this is part of the problem in america just tell every one to go fuck themselfs! do you guys realise how many jobs would be lost? not just from the big three but the mile long list of smaller companys that supply the big three! the economy is tanking because people dont have jobs! people are not spending money because of it! we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!

Do you realize that even with a bailout, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD STILL LOSE THEIR JOBS?

That is what GM will have to do downize and close many many more plants to become profitable again. You cant feed money into a failure so they will have to completly restructure. (Something they will have to do whether money comes or doesn't).


And why would we tax something that is a good product just to help GM? Does that make sense in a capitalist economy? People still havn't forgiven Harly Davidson for doing this in the 80's.

Oh and did you read my post? You do know there is a HUGE Kia plant being finished on the Georgia Alabama border? Why cant these people just go get work in a foreign plant located in the USA? These plants also get supplies from similar companies as GM if it is cost effecient.

Don't let GM lobbiest lie to you. In a free market, i shouldn't be taxed on buying a better product. These auto workers chose where they work and just like i had to leave the car business because there was no money left, they will have to do the same.

[Daveparts]

The Fox Effect
By David Glenn Cox


We have all sorts of mental conditions and psychoses that cause us to behave outside the norms of society. Post traumatic stress, ADHD, even Alzheimer’s disease can cause cognitive function to decline. So open your medical books and write this one into the margins to be codified into later additions: “The Fox effect.” The Fox effect is a syndrome that appears in all agencies and franchises owned by News Corps. Its symptoms include the inverting of facts and statistics to meet its right-wing political agenda.

When the Wall Street Journal was bought out by News Corp last year I wondered to myself, how could the Wall Street Journal become even more right wing? Long the bastion of conservatives and right wing business interests but it was also known for at least some semblance of journalistic integrity. Ah, those were the good old days. Now automatons churn out Fox News caliber offal that would make William Randolph Hurst blush and point to their Wall Street Journal paper hats to show us their integrity.

Here is a perfect example of the Fox effect: “South Could Gain as Detroit Struggles” By Paulo Prada and Dan Fitzpatrick

“As Detroit's auto makers seek a government bailout, the resilience of their foreign rivals could vault the South to the forefront of the U.S. car industry.”

“Foreign makers have been lured to South Carolina, Alabama and other Southern states over the past decade by generous tax benefits and laws that make it easier to build a largely nonunion work force.”

Ok, the premise is fair enough, the South could benefit, but guess how the South benefits.

“That labor flexibility has emerged as a key advantage during the industry downturn, allowing foreign-owned plants to rapidly downshift in ways their unionized U.S. competitors cannot. Looser work rules are allowing German automaker BMW AG to lay off up to 733 employees at its Greer, S.C., plant by the end of the year. And Toyota Motor Corp said Wednesday it plans to let go at least 250 people at a Georgetown, Ky., factory in the first quarter of 2009.”

That’s the Fox effect, the South could benefit because non-union foreign auto plants can send a thousand Southerners home without paychecks to feed their families. Isn’t that great! At BMW’s plants in Germany its union employees just received an annual raise based on BMW’s record profits last year, but in Greer, South Carolina business is slow, so “get lost.” Toyota gave their Japanese union employees bonuses last year of between $17,000 and $22,000, and its American employees will get the gate and it's called flexibility.

“Such moves would be largely out of reach for the Big Three U.S. auto makers, which have been saddled with stricter labor rules as vehicle sales have plummeted. Union rules often guaranteed jobs for workers along with generous benefits and wages that surpass those of most other U.S. manufacturing sectors.”

Those same generous benefits also apply to German and Japanese autoworkers, so the South benefits through lower wage earners who pay less in taxes into state and local coffers. Those workers who will have little recourse when being flexible but to depend on state unemployment compensation when the overseer sends them back to the shacks. It only makes sense to shut down the plants where state and local governments have given them a free pass on property taxes and millions of dollars of government incentives. Likewise these flexibility shut downs will reverberate throughout these communities and strain the tax base, but remember, you’re not unemployed, you’re being flexible.

“The foreign manufacturers -- which are also reaping benefits of advanced production lines and a more popular lineup of models -- are positioned to grab market share from domestic competitors when demand revives. 'If the American car companies died, this is what would replace them,' said Laurie Harbour-Felax, an auto industry consultant.”

An advanced production line, full of healthy twenty and thirty year olds. Not like the inflexible auto workers in the United States who have the nerve to get older after the big three gave them employment for twenty years. Who demand healthcare and living wages and are just being inflexible. I wonder why those foreign automakers would ever come to such a country? Oh yeah, to get away from their own unions back home so that they can come here and exploit, I mean take advantage of, the “flexibility” of the southern tier of American states.

“Volkswagen AG, Toyota and Kia Motors Corp., which collectively will benefit from more than $1 billion in government incentives, are pushing through the downturn to complete new factories in Tennessee, Mississippi, and Georgia.”

More good news! Georgia has lost two union auto manufacturing facilities, idling 4,000, but even more good news! We added one new non-union plant that only cost the taxpayers of Georgia 10 million dollars a year in tax abatement every year for ten years, even if the workers get sent home next week and never draw another paycheck. Why, to get any better we’d have to have a leaking nuclear plant near the old folks home.

“Foreign makers, which currently operate eight plants in the South, have the firm support of many Southern legislators and governors, who have spent much of the past week giving high-profile denunciations of a Detroit bailout. They argue that buttressing ailing U.S. car companies would create unfair competition to foreign makers that have brought thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in investments to the region.”

The companies have the firm support of lawmakers who, in turn, have the firm support of the foreign manufactures. I guess it's what you would call our own peculiar institution. Lawmakers who denounce the assistance for American companies while proclaiming that competition drives the marketplace. They claim that the big three are going broke because of a bad business model and union wages yet their own non-union plants are being shut down and their workers are left with nothing and they praise it as good news!

The Fox effect, union and non-union plants alike are shutting down but that will somehow aid the South because the companies in the South will owe those workers nothing. Southern lawmakers are lobbying for lower wages and less security for the citizens who ignorantly elected them. With leaders like those who needs enemies? Lawmakers who lobby against American workers and interests and call their support unfair! And a minstrel show media that dances on cue and calls it good news!

[Nomad!]

This is a tough one because both solutions are going to sting. The trick is to figure out which sting isn't potentially deadly. Letting the big 3 go under will have a negative effect on the global market and it will be devastating for thousands of American families. Bailing them out will be an even bigger burden on all of us tax paying citizens and, there is nothing in place to keep them from going back to their money losing ways. I just don't think there will be a decisive proper solution to this problem.

As for the big 3 not being able to keep up with it's import counter parts...a major anchor for the the big 3 are the unions. The big 3 have to produce X amount of vehicles in order to comply with the union agreements for mandatory work hours. If the demand for a particular model is low, they still have to continue producing them just to ensure the employees get their hours. This in turn, saturates the market with vehicles that no one wants to buy. Of course the unions aren't the only problem with the big 3 (corporate structure, lack of innovation, vehicle design, poor quality rep, etc.) but, the way the union agreement is currently structured, it certainly doesn't help alleviate the slump.

[DrivenMind]

afuckinggree

You do realize that a ton of import manufacturers have factories in the states now? And that domestic car manufacturers have plants in foreign countries right? The Toyota Camry is built in Kentucky, while the Ford F series is built in Mexico. The Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon is built in Mexico aswell. Honda has six facilities in Ohio, and BMW has a huge one in South Carolina.

So yeah, lets tax the shit out those damn japs for not employing more American workers.

[Barefoot]

You do realize that a ton of import manufacturers have factories in the states now? And that domestic car manufacturers have plants in foreign countries right? The Toyota Camry is built in Kentucky, while the Ford F series is built in Mexico. The Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon is built in Mexico aswell. Honda has six facilities in Ohio, and BMW has a huge one in South Carolina.

So yeah, lets tax the shit out those damn japs for not employing more American workers.now u see the light

[DrivenMind]

I think you missed the scathing sarcasm.

[Alan®]

The Fox Effect
By David Glenn Cox


We have all sorts of mental conditions and psychoses that cause us to behave outside the norms of society. Post traumatic stress, ADHD, even Alzheimer’s disease can cause cognitive function to decline. So open your medical books and write this one into the margins to be codified into later additions: “The Fox effect.” The Fox effect is a syndrome that appears in all agencies and franchises owned by News Corps. Its symptoms include the inverting of facts and statistics to meet its right-wing political agenda.

When the Wall Street Journal was bought out by News Corp last year I wondered to myself, how could the Wall Street Journal become even more right wing? Long the bastion of conservatives and right wing business interests but it was also known for at least some semblance of journalistic integrity. Ah, those were the good old days. Now automatons churn out Fox News caliber offal that would make William Randolph Hurst blush and point to their Wall Street Journal paper hats to show us their integrity.

Here is a perfect example of the Fox effect: “South Could Gain as Detroit Struggles” By Paulo Prada and Dan Fitzpatrick

“As Detroit's auto makers seek a government bailout, the resilience of their foreign rivals could vault the South to the forefront of the U.S. car industry.”

“Foreign makers have been lured to South Carolina, Alabama and other Southern states over the past decade by generous tax benefits and laws that make it easier to build a largely nonunion work force.”

Ok, the premise is fair enough, the South could benefit, but guess how the South benefits.

“That labor flexibility has emerged as a key advantage during the industry downturn, allowing foreign-owned plants to rapidly downshift in ways their unionized U.S. competitors cannot. Looser work rules are allowing German automaker BMW AG to lay off up to 733 employees at its Greer, S.C., plant by the end of the year. And Toyota Motor Corp said Wednesday it plans to let go at least 250 people at a Georgetown, Ky., factory in the first quarter of 2009.”

That’s the Fox effect, the South could benefit because non-union foreign auto plants can send a thousand Southerners home without paychecks to feed their families. Isn’t that great! At BMW’s plants in Germany its union employees just received an annual raise based on BMW’s record profits last year, but in Greer, South Carolina business is slow, so “get lost.” Toyota gave their Japanese union employees bonuses last year of between $17,000 and $22,000, and its American employees will get the gate and it's called flexibility.

“Such moves would be largely out of reach for the Big Three U.S. auto makers, which have been saddled with stricter labor rules as vehicle sales have plummeted. Union rules often guaranteed jobs for workers along with generous benefits and wages that surpass those of most other U.S. manufacturing sectors.”

Those same generous benefits also apply to German and Japanese autoworkers, so the South benefits through lower wage earners who pay less in taxes into state and local coffers. Those workers who will have little recourse when being flexible but to depend on state unemployment compensation when the overseer sends them back to the shacks. It only makes sense to shut down the plants where state and local governments have given them a free pass on property taxes and millions of dollars of government incentives. Likewise these flexibility shut downs will reverberate throughout these communities and strain the tax base, but remember, you’re not unemployed, you’re being flexible.

“The foreign manufacturers -- which are also reaping benefits of advanced production lines and a more popular lineup of models -- are positioned to grab market share from domestic competitors when demand revives. 'If the American car companies died, this is what would replace them,' said Laurie Harbour-Felax, an auto industry consultant.”

An advanced production line, full of healthy twenty and thirty year olds. Not like the inflexible auto workers in the United States who have the nerve to get older after the big three gave them employment for twenty years. Who demand healthcare and living wages and are just being inflexible. I wonder why those foreign automakers would ever come to such a country? Oh yeah, to get away from their own unions back home so that they can come here and exploit, I mean take advantage of, the “flexibility” of the southern tier of American states.

“Volkswagen AG, Toyota and Kia Motors Corp., which collectively will benefit from more than $1 billion in government incentives, are pushing through the downturn to complete new factories in Tennessee, Mississippi, and Georgia.”

More good news! Georgia has lost two union auto manufacturing facilities, idling 4,000, but even more good news! We added one new non-union plant that only cost the taxpayers of Georgia 10 million dollars a year in tax abatement every year for ten years, even if the workers get sent home next week and never draw another paycheck. Why, to get any better we’d have to have a leaking nuclear plant near the old folks home.

“Foreign makers, which currently operate eight plants in the South, have the firm support of many Southern legislators and governors, who have spent much of the past week giving high-profile denunciations of a Detroit bailout. They argue that buttressing ailing U.S. car companies would create unfair competition to foreign makers that have brought thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in investments to the region.”

The companies have the firm support of lawmakers who, in turn, have the firm support of the foreign manufactures. I guess it's what you would call our own peculiar institution. Lawmakers who denounce the assistance for American companies while proclaiming that competition drives the marketplace. They claim that the big three are going broke because of a bad business model and union wages yet their own non-union plants are being shut down and their workers are left with nothing and they praise it as good news!

The Fox effect, union and non-union plants alike are shutting down but that will somehow aid the South because the companies in the South will owe those workers nothing. Southern lawmakers are lobbying for lower wages and less security for the citizens who ignorantly elected them. With leaders like those who needs enemies? Lawmakers who lobby against American workers and interests and call their support unfair! And a minstrel show media that dances on cue and calls it good news!
I can't believe I actually read this hugely bias load of garbage. Of course automakers in the south have been able to downshift production and lay off people easier than companies with unions.

Why is it that Dems think that Unions are gods gift to the corporate world? Unions do nothing now but get in the way. yea they were great back in the day but now they run the company not the Board of Directors or CEO's.

The unions are a HUGE part of why the Big 3 want the bailout.

Seriously where the hell did you pull that from?

[Vteckidd]

Let them fail. They have failed to innovate over the last 20+ years and now feel that taxpayers should pay for there failures. Honestly, if you look at a GM (Chevy) 305ci or 350ci engine from the 70's and the ones of the late 90's, before the switch to the 327ci engine, there is no innovation there. The same applies to Ford's 302ci or 351ci engines and same applies to Chrysler engines (2.5L 4cyl or 4.0 6cyl or 5.9l 8cyl) There is no innovation.

I will agree with redGT on saying let them fail. If they would have spent all this time trying to make their product more marketable to the public instead of just turning a profit, they wouldn't be in this mess. The best examples of innovation come from foreign car companies.

Let them fail and relearn what it takes to make a business successful.

PS - I know both GM and Ford have been in business for over 100 years, however, the market changes and businesses must adapt, they haven't.

+1

They need to declare bankruptcy and reorganize. Otherwise we will be bailing them out 5 years from now again.

I mean my uncle made a GREAT point, the airlines went bankrupt (delta did) and now they are stronger because of it. Of course my uncle got a pay cut but the company is stronger and more viable now than it was before.

GM and FORD need to go into bankruptcy, they need to re-evaluate their pensions, wages, etc. They need to figure out why their cars dont sell. I mean why are they paying $2000 PER CAR THEY SELL TO RETIRED WORKERS?

Theres almost no money left for a profit.

The initial shock would be bad if they go into bankruptcy, but, hey, only the strong survive

[Alan®]

+1

They need to declare bankruptcy and reorganize. Otherwise we will be bailing them out 5 years from now again.

I mean my uncle made a GREAT point, the airlines went bankrupt (delta did) and now they are stronger because of it. Of course my uncle got a pay cut but the company is stronger and more viable now than it was before.

GM and FORD need to go into bankruptcy, they need to re-evaluate their pensions, wages, etc. They need to figure out why their cars dont sell. I mean why are they paying $2000 PER CAR THEY SELL TO RETIRED WORKERS?

Theres almost no money left for a profit.

The initial shock would be bad if they go into bankruptcy, but, hey, only the strong survive

Kevin (Kustom Buildz) I had a good conversation off of here and one thing that he and I disagree on is timing? Kevin seems to think that doing it after the economy swings back up would be better and I disagree. The last thing you want is to have the Big 3 go down during an upswing. When the market starts going back up and the big 3 go under it would be a huge step back.

[Vteckidd]

And the unions are a MAJOR PART OF THE PRObLEM

I mean they got guys making $75 an hour turning screws. I mean come on, thats rediculous.

You should get paid what you are WORTH, no more, no less. If you are the best damn screw turner in the history of GM, you are still a SCREW TURNER.

Sounds cold, but when did we start rewarding mediocracy? We need blue collar workers, and i love an thank them for the job they are doing, but that doesnt mean you should make $80,000 a year when you should be making $40,000.

Now if the company is doing well and can afford it, sure go for it, but when you are losing money, you HAVE TO TRIM THE FAT, period.

[EJ25RUN]

And the unions are a MAJOR PART OF THE PRObLEM

I mean they got guys making $75 an hour turning screws. I mean come on, thats rediculous.

You should get paid what you are WORTH, no more, no less. If you are the best damn screw turner in the history of GM, you are still a SCREW TURNER.

Sounds cold, but when did we start rewarding mediocracy? We need blue collar workers, and i love an thank them for the job they are doing, but that doesnt mean you should make $80,000 a year when you should be making $40,000.

Now if the company is doing well and can afford it, sure go for it, but when you are losing money, you HAVE TO TRIM THE FAT, period.

That is GM exact problem. They don't understand where the money needs to go. It is far more expensive to pay the guy than to make the car.

You people need to all realize that if this goes through, it would again be more taxes that are unjust. I shouldn't have to pay taxes for something i don't believe in.

[Alan®]

Something else to think about.

What has history taught us about corporations and taxes? We pay for it. So essentially they get this bailout and we end up paying for it twice. In taxes and in the hike of the cost in their products.

[Nomad!]

And the unions are a MAJOR PART OF THE PRObLEM

I mean they got guys making $75 an hour turning screws. I mean come on, thats rediculous.

You should get paid what you are WORTH, no more, no less. If you are the best damn screw turner in the history of GM, you are still a SCREW TURNER.

Sounds cold, but when did we start rewarding mediocracy? We need blue collar workers, and i love an thank them for the job they are doing, but that doesnt mean you should make $80,000 a year when you should be making $40,000.

Now if the company is doing well and can afford it, sure go for it, but when you are losing money, you HAVE TO TRIM THE FAT, period.
This goes right along with my post. I understand the role unions played in getting workers their rights and safe work conditions etc. but, do they play an important and reasonable role in today's work environment?

[bandydesign]

I think most of you are saying the same thing with different words.

1) We all agree that the unions are hurting the big 3.

2) The big 3 need to restructure, most likely through bankruptcy

3) American jobs will be lost either way, but I believe more through bankruptcy

4) The automakers have a huge impact on the economy and they are hurting now, which is bad and if they go under it will be worse

5) The economy is terrible right now

There are other points being made, but these support what I want to say.

I believe that since the economy is bad right now, maybe we sure be doing a bit better before we take the punch from the automakers falling into bankruptcy to allow them to restructure. Can we take the hit now? Or is it worse to hurt us on the upswing because of the hurt on the moral?(Point by redGT) I believe that we do not have the safety net right now to hit the economy that much harder! The economy is fragile right now and our country is at the same time. What effect might there be outside of the economy?
Above supported by red text.

[Alan®]

Seems even Paulson doesn't want them to get it.

WASHINGTON – Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson told Congress on Tuesday that the administration remains firmly opposed to dipping into the government's $700 billion financial bailout fund for a $25 billion rescue package for Detroit's Big Three automakers, no matter how badly they need the help.

"There are other ways" to help them, Paulson told the House Financial Services Committee as the bailout bill clung to life support on Capitol Hill.

Committee members grilled Paulson on the administration's stance that the $25 billion must come from separate legislation passed in September that Congress designed specifically to help auto manufacturers retool their factories so they can make more fuel-efficient vehicles.

The $700 billion bailout plan enacted by Congress in October and signed into law by President George W. Bush did not envision that the program would be used to help rescue nonfinancial companies, Paulson said. "I believe the auto companies fall outside of that purpose."

At the same time, he testified, "I think it would be not a good thing, it would be something to be avoided, having one of the auto companies fail, particularly during this period of time."

Paulson said that solving the financial problems of the automakers should be done in a way "that leads to long-term sustainable viability" for the industry.

Auto executives, backed by leading Democrats, insist they need another $25 billion in emergency bridge loans — on top of the $25 billion already approved and being administered by the Energy Department — to avert a collapse of one or more of their companies. That would bring the total federal help for the industry to $50 billion this year.

Paulson cited this Energy Department program several times. "I urge you to modify that" to help automakers, he said.

But Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., told Paulson, "It seems to me when you're treating a disease, you don't decide where the disease came from. You decide when is the prognosis, the likely prognosis. And then you take action."

Kanjorski said there was "a lack of confidence both in this body and in the general population" over the government's handling of the crisis. "They want some idea, do we have a plan? Where are we going? To say turning a corner, really, is not terribly significant."

The auto executives, along with the head of the United Auto Workers union, were making their case at a hearing before the Senate Banking Committee as auto bailout backers hunted the votes necessary to pass the plan in a postelection session. Aides in both parties and lobbyists tracking the plan privately acknowledge they are far short.

Karen Majewski, mayor of Hamtramck, Mich., said police, fire and public works departments would face major cuts if they lost tax revenues from GM and American Axle plants in her city. "We're talking about the lifeblood of our city," she said.

She was among local officials from cities with auto plants making the rounds on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, lobbying for the $25 billion in auto-industry bridge loans.

The debate comes as the financial situation for General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC grows more precarious.

General Motors, Chrysler and Tesla Motors Inc. have already applied for loans under the existing $25 billion Energy Department program and Ford CEO Alan Mulally said the automaker plans to apply on Tuesday. GM, Chrysler and Ford have not disclosed the amount of aid they're seeking or for what purposes. Tesla said it was seeking about $400 million in loans for two projects.

Cash-strapped GM said it will delay reimbursing its dealers for rebates and other sales incentives and that it could run out of cash by year's end without government aid.

Mulally argued Tuesday in advance of the hearing that his company already been laboring to "transform our business" into a more profitable one that meets 21st century demands for fuel-efficient vehicles.

Interviewed on ABC's "Good Morning America," Mulally denied that automakers resisted restructuring their companies or that it has been badly managed.

Sen. Carl M. Levin, D-Mich., an architect of the auto bailout, said that auto executives need to address the perception by some lawmakers "that there's still some quality issues with the Big Three, and they haven't begun to do the necessary restructuring — because they have."

Levin's bill would provide loans with initial interest rates of 5 percent to the U.S. automakers and suppliers in exchange for a federal stake in the companies or warrants that would let the government profit from future gains. Loan applicants would have to give the government a plan for "long-term financial viability."

But it stops short of giving the government a say over the firms' operations through an oversight board or hard limits on executive compensation. While taking advantage of the program, the companies could not pay dividends, award bonuses to executives making more than $250,000 a year, or give golden parachute payments to top people departing from the firms.

A vote on the measure — which includes an extension of jobless benefits — could come as early as Thursday. But Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., also laid the groundwork for a straight up-or-down vote on the more widely supported unemployment measure, which is probably all that can pass this week.

[EJ25RUN]

Here something Ford Austrialia is doing that is winning on all sides.

Autoblog...

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/11/fg_falcon_six.jpg

"No, thanks," says Ford of Australia to the Duratec V6. Instead, Ford of Oz will invest $21 million to upgrade its homegrown inline six-cylinder and keep the invading powerplant out. The ongoing commitment to its own engine saves jobs at Ford's Geelong plant, as well as keeps local Australian suppliers healthy. It doesn't make any sense for gaskets, castings, bearings and other various parts to come from some other continent, so it's a piece of good news for the economy in Victoria. The engine will be freshened to meet Euro IV emissions standards and will keep thundering away down under with exemplary second-order vibration characteristics. The Falcon, Falcon Ute, and Territory will continue to be homegrown products with homegrown hearts, that we still badly want here in he States. C'mon Ford, if Pontiac can do it, you can, too.

That means that

1. Ford has decided to build on an engine that is already very successful and not risk on a power plant that is not proven. That way, it is a much smarter investment on their part. (Last time they tried an American Ford Taurus in OZ, it failed miserably)

2. Workers keep their jobs.

3. Because the I6 comes turbocharged, it is also a great base for FPV and other Ford performance vehicles alongside their 5.4L DOHC V8.

[blaknoize]

They simply need to make better products. Period. Disregarding all the above statements about money and pensions. If a company wants to work and survive in a very competitive market they should have looked to the future not for the money right now. Of all the full size cars Honda/Toyota make, they are very reliable, get at the very least 30mpg, work great, look great. They have stayed focused on getting the best possible out of what they have for the class of car out.

I mean, the civic is no longer a compact car, its almost a full size itself. And as yall know, its mpg is great. They seem to be focused on one goal. I believe thats getting the best out of what is put into it. Purpose built cars

[stephen]

i pretty much agree with everyone else that their business models need some serious attention. i took a quick glance at just GM's fiscal calendar(s) (over the past 5yrs) and october & november seem to be their slow points...that coupled with this recent reduction in consumer lending (or people un-willing to take on new debts) pretty much sums up as to WHY they're seeking this "emergency" money.

as i was searching, i ran across some pretty FAIR ideas that i believe the big 3 & fellow union(s) need to take into serious consideration. they're both pretty long, so i'll post the link to the first one, and copy/paste another idea that should be added to it.

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/11/solution-for-detroit-gm-friends.html


it seems that there may be at least a partial solution to the challenges faced by the US automakers that has not been fully explored.

Arguably the greatest challenge that US automakers have historically faced is related to the labor force / labor unions. Critics point to product related problems and other debatable historical management decisions by auto industry executives. However, in my opinion, some of the demands of the labor unions, and the acquiescence of management under the threat of strike, have been, and continue to be the greatest hindrances to the competitiveness of US automakers.

Therefore, given the current turmoil which provides an opportunity for unprecedented, creative action to "save" the US auto industry, I would propose the following idea:

Establish 5 to 6 new, independent entities - "Labor Service Cos" - which would take on the entire blue-collar workforces of all participating automakers and provide flexible, contract-based, automotive assembly labor services to the participating automakers (and other manufacturers in need of skilled labor for their US facilities).

In the simplest terms, I am proposing a massive automotive manufacturing service outsourcing deal similar to the large IT outsourcing deals that IT services providers such as IBM Global Services form with large corporations.

The "Labor Service Cos" (hereafter: "LSCs") should receive their initial capital from at least three sources:

1) The participating automakers. The automakers would "give away" their blue collar workforces along with cash (and the workers' current retirement benefit reserves) in a deal somewhat similar to the Siemens-BenQ deal for Siemens' mobile phone unit
2) The government of the state of Michigan. Michigan would extend low interest loans, and provide other economic incentives to the LSCs to keep them based in Michigan
3) The US federal government. The US government would extend low interest loans to the LSCs to facilitate the deal and to ensure a return to US taxpayers

The LSCs should then renegotiate adequately flexible, productivity / quality based labor outsourcing contracts with the participating automakers. The LSCs' management teams would then be responsible for the training, compensation, welfare, allocation and performance management of the workers along with the long-term profitable management of the LSCs (e.g., the LSCs should pursue growth and diversification opportunities by providing skilled manufacturing labor services to other clients).

This deal, if properly structured and executed, should have several positive benefits including:

1) Significant cost savings, increased flexibility, and bankruptcy avoidance for the participating automakers
2) Introduction of more competition, easier performance management and more market driven behavior / decisionmaking into the automotive manufacturing labor service market
3) Increased focus of automakers' management resources on more valuable activities
4) Elimination of conflict between auto labor unions and automakers
5) Provision of attractive upside for LSC employees (e.g., stock in LSCs, more flexible work opportunities, service-oriented corporate culture, etc.)
6) Retention of jobs and skilled, flexible workforce in Michigan
7) Increased automobile assembly quality due to competition among LSCs for service contracts

[turbodawg]

All arguments aside, this thing isn't going to make through the 110th Congress. Like that's a non-starter. Doesn't really matter what the Dems say, they don't have control for real until Jan 3. By that time, GM will probably go under anyways. What's more is that the Big Three going under will be decently good for the South. All the foreign automakers have their plants down here. THe Big Three go under and the foreign plants expand and employ more people. Besides the Big Three are being sucked dry by the UAW. The unionized Big Three pay employees on average $73 an hour compared to the non-unionized South where employees make on average $48 an hour making them much more competitive. Makes you wonder why Ford and GM shut down plants in Ga. Perhaps if they wanted the votes of the two Senators from Ga, they shouldn't have closed shop and left 4k people in our great state High and Dry while Kia is building a $1.5 Billion factory in west GA. Sucks to be them!

[Init2winit]

Who do I need to talk to about getting bailed out? I mean, I'm not wanting billions, I just want an even million, and I'll be happy. I wonder if President Elect Obama can help me out with that?

[Alan®]

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[AirMax95]

Who do I need to talk to about getting bailed out? I mean, I'm not wanting billions, I just want an even million, and I'll be happy. I wonder if President Elect Obama can help me out with that?

Hell, I will take $50k!

Bail me out!

[Christopherr]

If GM goes under - just think about it - stop your bias and contemplate the consequences.

GM has stake in every single part of the world, Europe, Asia, Africa, Mexico. Employs over 75,000 employees stateside, not including the GM dealerships. Think about the suppliers that supplies parts (Delphi, Bosch) that will have job losses, cash flow lost, profits. The vendors that rely on GM to stay in business. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars...gone.

Do I agree in a bailout...yes and no. Yes, because if they go under it'd be worse than a bailout (the global finances will come to a halt). No, because they -DID- make crap products. I'm -Asian- and all I drive is GM. I see it from both sides of the fence. GM's new products are just as good as the import counter parts. Ford is getting better. Chrysler, well they have always been subpar...but getting better. Keep in mind that the next Dodge RAM is the under pinnings for the next Titan. Ford has stake in Mazda and Volvo. More than ever, Domestics and Imports are working to

Stop the UAW from their crazy requirements. Stop the taxing death. Stop bashing the three.

When was the last time anyone who hates em sat in one...

It would be prudent to keep the three alive.

[Tech5]

Obama! = Change!
Who do I need to talk to about getting bailed out? I mean, I'm not wanting billions, I just want an even million, and I'll be happy. I wonder if President Elect Obama can help me out with that?

[Alan®]

If GM goes under - just think about it - stop your bias and contemplate the consequences.

GM has stake in every single part of the world, Europe, Asia, Africa, Mexico. Employs over 75,000 employees stateside, not including the GM dealerships. Think about the suppliers that supplies parts (Delphi, Bosch) that will have job losses, cash flow lost, profits. The vendors that rely on GM to stay in business. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars...gone.

Do I agree in a bailout...yes and no. Yes, because if they go under it'd be worse than a bailout (the global finances will come to a halt). No, because they -DID- make crap products. I'm -Asian- and all I drive is GM. I see it from both sides of the fence. GM's new products are just as good as the import counter parts. Ford is getting better. Chrysler, well they have always been subpar...but getting better. Keep in mind that the next Dodge RAM is the under pinnings for the next Titan. Ford has stake in Mazda and Volvo. More than ever, Domestics and Imports are working to

Stop the UAW from their crazy requirements. Stop the taxing death. Stop bashing the three.

When was the last time anyone who hates em sat in one...

It would be prudent to keep the three alive.

LOL. Bias?Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhtt tttt. :gay: . Businesses fail everyday in this country and you don't see them getting bailed out. This notion that some companies are simply too big to fail is ludicrous.

This county has turned into a bunch of mediocrity and failure rewarding weinies and its sickening. The Big 3 (GM more so than the rest) FUCKED UP BIG TIME. They mad the same car at least 3 times rebadged as something else and didn't even make that great of a product. Think about it. All of GM's recent good products were all made somewhere else by someone else. They had to outsource just to get something good because they weren't doing it over here. So we give OUR money to a bunch of companies that tried to make a quick buck with no future outlook :thinking: . :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: .

Yea and btw. I drove an 80K H2 last week. For 80K I expect a lot less plastic.

[Christopherr]

LOL. Bias?Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhtt tttt. :gay: . Businesses fail everyday in this country and you don't see them getting bailed out. This notion that some companies are simply too big to fail is ludicrous.

This county has turned into a bunch of mediocrity and failure rewarding weinies and its sickening. The Big 3 (GM more so than the rest) FUCKED UP BIG TIME. They mad the same car at least 3 times rebadged as something else and didn't even make that great of a product. Think about it. All of GM's recent good products were all made somewhere else by someone else. They had to outsource just to get something good because they weren't doing it over here. So we give OUR money to a bunch of companies that tried to make a quick buck with no future outlook :thinking: . :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: .

Yea and btw. I drove an 80K H2 last week. For 80K I expect a lot less plastic.

80K H2? Where'd you drive a $80,000 Hummer H2 at? They aren't even priced in that range.

I'm not saying that GM didn't mess up...they did! I openly admit it, I own a f-body, one of the worse fit and finish vehicles ever made but I still have 270K on the clock. So did Ford with their weak products and Chrysler, always been subpar even with Mits' help or lack thereof. As I was saying before, to let them go under would be watching the financial world go under with them...at least with GM.

and I can promise you - when they put out cars and trucks that competes with imports - people still won't buy because majority of American's don't support America anymore...why do I know this, becuase they are putting out cars and trucks better than the competition and people still don't buy.

I'm a Shop Manager and I sit and road test every single car under the sun.

I just bought and Saturn Vue, cross shopping the CRV, RAV4.

The CRV and Rav4 has acres of hard plastic - on the door panels, dash, everything! The Saturn has leather wrapped panels and soft touch dash etc in the base version. GM trucks has and will always be better than imports - check out the current motor trend.

What I end up with was a Vue with a 3.6 DOHC 260 hp engine and 6 speed tranny with better accomodations, fit and finish, performance for less than a 4 banger CRV or RAV4. 5/100K warranty, onstar, XM. I got a base interior Vue with the works in drivestrain for thousands less than the competition.

I've been into cars since I was able to play with hotwheels, while the kids were playing, I was reading R&T, C&D, MT...I shopped and shopped before making my decision.

This generation of GM products are as good if not better than the competitve import. At this point, no one will give them a chance because their paradigm is of the GM of yesteryear...and they are unwilling to make that shift. GM could give stuff away and people will still look the other way...

$80K h2!? The H2 is priced under the H3 (chassis of the last gen Tahoe). the H2 shares heavily with Isuzu also...

GM makes great products now, it might be too late, but they made the change...too bad the consumer won't.

[4dmin]

as much as i don't want to give them the money it has to happen... if it doesn't we will have one of the hardest blows to our economy since 911 ;)

i think there is a projection of 1.5 million jobs that will be lost due to collapse of auto manufacture

[Nissangeek]

Why because it's only fair?

I find it funny that we have foreign auto makers here in this country that can build and assemble cars here and ship them back to the EU and they aren't running back to the German, Japanese, Korean Govt's begging for money. Obviously the way that the companies are structured, doing business isn't working. The big Three are big through 2 billion a piece A MONTH. Also did you know that GM is paying more people through pensions than they currently employ? Add in the fact that the Unions won't even negotiate with the Big 3 and we end up where we are right now.

Sorry just because we gave out $700 Billion to companies that shouldn't have got it in the first place doesn't mean we should just continue handing out money because we can.

Thats actually not true. A few of the foreign automakers are asking for money from their respective governments the same as the Big 3 are asking for it from our government. Also, there are more than three companies after the money from the bailout, not just Detroit. What happens when the Big 3 do go bankrupt? Between the three of them they employ approximatly 3.5 million Americans. If each were to cut their workforce by a third (which is likely if faced with bankruptcy) thats about 1 million people out of work in one blow. Then when production and R&D is cut, what happens to their steel, or glass, or other suppliers? They have to lay people off to make up for the loss in revenue. If the Big 3 to go down, the rest of the contry will go with them.

[Alan®]

Thats actually not true.
Actually it is

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/19/news/international/chinese_auto.ap/

The chinese are the only ones going to their government for help. The Germans, Britts, Etc. haven't reached that point yet.

[Nissangeek]

Actually its not.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/10/05/now-european-car-companies-want-a-bailout/

[Alan®]

Actually its not.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/10/05/now-european-car-companies-want-a-bailout/
You're still wrong. That's not a bailout. That's a retooling handout. The big 3 here got something like that. And personally I agree with it. If the government is going to impose stricter emissions laws and MPG standards then they should also have to pay for it. Your confusing two completely seperate issues. The foreign automakers(Other than the chinese that I showed) are no where near bankruptcy the way the big 3 are.

BTW NOW THEY WANT $34 Billion? WTF?

[BanginJimmy]

\Between the three of them they employ approximatly 3.5 million Americans. If each were to cut their workforce by a third (which is likely if faced with bankruptcy) thats about 1 million people out of work in one blow. Then when production and R&D is cut, what happens to their steel, or glass, or other suppliers? They have to lay people off to make up for the loss in revenue. If the Big 3 to go down, the rest of the contry will go with them.


I read a while back that if the Big 3 were to go under it would cost more than 10 million jobs in the US over about a 5 year span. That includes the actual corporations, their suppliers, then the last to go will be the dealerships and mechanics.

[Nissangeek]

You're still wrong. That's not a bailout. That's a retooling handout. The big 3 here got something like that. And personally I agree with it. If the government is going to impose stricter emissions laws and MPG standards then they should also have to pay for it. Your confusing two completely seperate issues. The foreign automakers(Other than the chinese that I showed) are no where near bankruptcy the way the big 3 are.

BTW NOW THEY WANT $34 Billion? WTF?

Thats what the original $50B was supposed to be for, before all of the hearings started. Now a part of the total amounts that the automakers are asking for would still be used for that, with the remainder being used to "keep the lights on" so to speak. I don't think it should be the governments responsibility to fix the problems of a non-government entity, however if the loan is not approved there is a good chance that there will no longer be an American automaker for the Germans, or the Japanese, or anyone else to compete with. I do, however, think that if the loan is approved it should have stipulations that require current upper managment to be replaced. I think its about time for Bob, Rick, and Al to let someone with half a brain give it a shot.

[allmotoronly]

I say go for it. It's only $34 billion. Thats like 4% of what the gov't shelled out to "save" wallstreet...

[Alan®]

Thats what the original $50B was supposed to be for, before all of the hearings started. Now a part of the total amounts that the automakers are asking for would still be used for that, with the remainder being used to "keep the lights on" so to speak. I don't think it should be the governments responsibility to fix the problems of a non-government entity, however if the loan is not approved there is a good chance that there will no longer be an American automaker for the Germans, or the Japanese, or anyone else to compete with. I do, however, think that if the loan is approved it should have stipulations that require current upper managment to be replaced. I think its about time for Bob, Rick, and Al to let someone with half a brain give it a shot.
It was my understanding. That $25 Billion was the original number that congress had already apropriated to the big 3 for retooling. NOT the bailout. The $34 Billion is the actual bailout. And as far as the foreign automakers not having anyone to compete with if the big 3 go under. That's simply false.

Look Chrysler got a bailout in the 80's or whatever and yes we made money great BUT, here we are and they are back wanting more. Chrysler had a partnership with probably one of the greatest auto manufacturers in the world (MB) and nothing came of it. If you can't come up with new products with access to a company like that :screwy: . Chrysler for sure needs to go under. I think that if Ford starts bringing over more and more of the vehicles and technology from Europe and Australia which they are currently doing, then they will be fine. GM on the other hand IDK

[BanginJimmy]

I think that if Ford starts bringing over more and more of the vehicles and technology from Europe and Australia which they are currently doing, then they will be fine. GM on the other hand IDK

GM is already doing this also. The G8, and the G8 ST are both Holden (Aussi GM brand) vehicles that have been updated to American safety and emissions standards.

[Silvrmaxx]

well if we're bailing out the banks , why not the big 3. More ppl will lose their jobs if the big three goes down than any bank. I still believe we shouldn't have bailed any of those compaines out to begin with, but if we bail one out then we should bail others out too


x2

[KREEP]

The executive staff are each riding around seperate in private jets. They should all get in one plane and ride coach!
I am sick of all the of all these motherfucker sgetting what they want when they fuck up! Screw em! Let them go under.......america will deal with it and everyone will find a job! I wish someone would bail me out if I was in debt! If they get bailed out I want teh gov. to pay off my credit card :D

[KREEP]

I read a while back that if the Big 3 were to go under it would cost more than 10 million jobs in the US over about a 5 year span. That includes the actual corporations, their suppliers, then the last to go will be the dealerships and mechanics.
well yeah....plant employees, dealers, salesmen, parts sales, it would all crumble...you also got to remember our military is supplied w/ american vehicles...parts and so forth. You name it and everyone gets hit when they go under but hey thats life man. Shit happens thats why they made the t shirts that say SHIT HAPPENS......cause it always does:D
I wonder if they go under can I get an american car for really cheap?????:blah: :lmfao:

[DVSRX-7]

let them go bankrupt!!

[lastwayout]

Guys, I think you're mistaking something. If GM goes under, GM won't disappear. Look, honda, toyota, nissan has like 30% total market share. The other big 3 goes down, they won't disappear. The demand is still there and foreign competitors can't just fill that huge void. What will happen is that they will restructure. Cut a couple plants. They will continue to make cars, and especially trucks. Toyota is not big enough to supply the US with enough trucks etc etc. The demand is still there, albeit falling now. So while lots of jobs will be lost, its not as bad as the 10 million or whatever exaggeration. GM will still be around as long as there is demand.

[BanginJimmy]

I am sure they will simply cut jobs and such, but that isnt what is killing the Big 3. It is the gaudy retirement plans that the UAW forced them into.

[bandydesign]

No question, restructuring is in order. However if you do this through bankruptcy, that takes time. Time we absolutely do not have right now. We are buying our time. We are about to hand over $8 billion+ to get the automakers through for 90days. We have to act now and we have to support the automakers in the fullest intent. We have to support them through restructuring. America needs domestic automaker(s). We have to fulfill their monetary loan needs in order to maintain the industry. Who hands over the money and who oversees the restructuring to what extend must be decided. That worries me if the gov't attempts to control that process.

[KREEP]

No question, restructuring is in order. However if you do this through bankruptcy, that takes time. Time we absolutely do not have right now. We are buying our time. We are about to hand over $8 billion+ to get the automakers through for 90days. We have to act now and we have to support the automakers in the fullest intent. We have to support them through restructuring. America needs domestic automaker(s). We have to fulfill their monetary loan needs in order to maintain the industry. Who hands over the money and who oversees the restructuring to what extend must be decided. That worries me if the gov't attempts to control that process.
Someone needs to help them spend their bailout money wisely and not on all of their executives flying seperatly on private jets and staying at High dollar resorts. They should all be forced to ride commercial flights in coach and should stay in a Holiday Inn express. These Big companies need to learn how to spend their money or the money that the gov. and Tax payers are bailing them out with. The gov. should assign them a finacial advisor along with the bailout package and it should be part of the agreement. If they want the money the Finacial advisor is part of the deal so they won't get into this mess again. They also need to quit paying all their workers so damn much money!
We do need domestic automakers but we need them to spend their money wisely. How can you feel right about flying in a private jet and staying in the nicest resorts when you know your company is going under ?!?!?!
They deserve the worst but we need em.

[Elbow]

Someone needs to help them spend their bailout money wisely and not on all of their executives flying seperatly on private jets and staying at High dollar resorts. They should all be forced to ride commercial flights in coach and should stay in a Holiday Inn express. These Big companies need to learn how to spend their money or the money that the gov. and Tax payers are bailing them out with. The gov. should assign them a finacial advisor along with the bailout package and it should be part of the agreement. If they want the money the Finacial advisor is part of the deal so they won't get into this mess again. They also need to quit paying all their workers so damn much money!
We do need domestic automakers but we need them to spend their money wisely. How can you feel right about flying in a private jet and staying in the nicest resorts when you know your company is going under ?!?!?!
They deserve the worst but we need em.

Agree 100%

[sshonda2004]

i heard that, but part of you wants to say fuckem because its like damn, how can a company like those be in such bad shape, it has to be because of business mistakes and what not on there behalf. maybe not budgeting properly, mishandling of funds, you never know
has every one in america lost there heads! let the big three fall are you guys fucking stupid! this is part of the problem in america just tell every one to go fuck themselfs! do you guys realise how many jobs would be lost? not just from the big three but the mile long list of smaller companys that supply the big three! the economy is tanking because people dont have jobs! people are not spending money because of it! we need to get americans working i honesty think we should tax the shit out of these imports that china and japan has flooded the market with! that way it would be cheaper to build here in american what we need that way americans are working and our money is staying here in the u.s where we need it!

[bandydesign]

The last three posts I agree with. Simply put this will have to be part of restructuring.

[4dmin]

unions + healthcare cost = disaster

from ia friends and i discussed this this weekend. these are two crucial issues w/ big 3. the problem w/ this country is lawyers/lobbiest.

[bandydesign]

Yeah, it doesn't help that Congress is gonna sit on their a$$ and try to talk the issue to death either.

[Nissangeek]

It was my understanding. That $25 Billion was the original number that congress had already apropriated to the big 3 for retooling. NOT the bailout. The $34 Billion is the actual bailout. And as far as the foreign automakers not having anyone to compete with if the big 3 go under. That's simply false.

Look Chrysler got a bailout in the 80's or whatever and yes we made money great BUT, here we are and they are back wanting more. Chrysler had a partnership with probably one of the greatest auto manufacturers in the world (MB) and nothing came of it. If you can't come up with new products with access to a company like that :screwy: . Chrysler for sure needs to go under. I think that if Ford starts bringing over more and more of the vehicles and technology from Europe and Australia which they are currently doing, then they will be fine. GM on the other hand IDK

$50B was the amount that was originally asked for but Congress only approved $25B to begin with. They explained it in a little more detail in the last hearing. None of it has actually been paid yet or officially been approved for that matter. I agree about Chrysler but you still have to think about the jobs that will be lost. From what I've heard Jeep will probably get sold off and continue on as a brand, but under another company, if Chrysler does go under. Ford has already said that by 2014, I think, they will no longer sell certain cars to certain markets but will sell the same cars in all markets, and we may get the Ka even before that. As for GM, I think they will be fine once the rest of the economy bounces back. They're slowly learning from their mistakes and finally offering some decent models

[BanginJimmy]

I truely hope this bailout fails now. They are tucking a pay raise for judges into a completely unrelated bill because Pelosi doesnt want the average American to know that they are planning to give judges a raise.

For the record, I am all for the raise for the judges. What I am against is hiding the raise into an unrelated bill. If a bill is worth passing at it, it should be able to pass on its own, not as a stipulation in another bill.

[GTScoob]

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6012/bailoutyk2.jpg

Nuff said.

[Kevykev]

Ghosn


That guy is top one the most..if not THE MOST respectable person in the Auto Industry.

[BABY J]

HMMMM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earns_toyota

[Alan®]

yea but you know whats funny toyota and gm were very VERY close in revenue BUT Toyota was still able to turn a profit till now.

[BABY J]

Andf they will continue to turn a profit --- the Asians are not proud -- they willl make the right decisions to mitigate the issue.

[hondachik]

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6012/bailoutyk2.jpg

Nuff said.

As much as I hate American made vehicles, I found great humor in that ad....til I realized its 100% true.:(

[Alan®]

Andf they will continue to turn a profit --- the Asians are not proud -- they willl make the right decisions to mitigate the issue.
Unlike our companies that just come running to us for hand outs

[BanginJimmy]

yea but you know whats funny toyota and gm were very VERY close in revenue BUT Toyota was still able to turn a profit till now.

The difference is vey simple. Toyota does not pay a union member 95% retirement. Instead they do what a smart business would do and set up a 401k program for retirements.

[BABY J]

FOR SHEEZY

[OneSlow5pt0]

fuck american cars.......thier most unreliable cars in the world.

[bandydesign]

the Asians are not proud -- they willl make the right decisions to mitigate the issue.

You sir are wrong.

[BABY J]

^^ You wanna bet that they will not take a loss next year?? I've got $100 on it.

[Deo Vindice]

I read a while back that if the Big 3 were to go under it would cost more than 10 million jobs in the US over about a 5 year span. That includes the actual corporations, their suppliers, then the last to go will be the dealerships and mechanics.

That may be but it's called the business cycle. Bad underperforming companies fall all the time, they are then replaced by those who are better, more organized ones. It's Capitalism. And while it may suck to think 10 million more Americans will be out of work, why should we (The Tax-Payer) reward the Big 3 for poor business choices. This bailout is simple...the Democrats don’t want to let GM go into bankruptcy because it would hurt their reliable union votes. Bailouts won’t bring profits back. This will just become a perpetual drain on taxpayers to support UAW workers.

[Alan®]

The difference is vey simple. Toyota does not pay a union member 95% retirement. Instead they do what a smart business would do and set up a 401k program for retirements.
And that's my point better management

[bandydesign]

yea but you know whats funny toyota and gm were very VERY close in revenue BUT Toyota was still able to turn a profit till now.

Look up how many dealerships GM vs Toyota, then get back to me...



^^ You wanna bet that they will not take a loss next year?? I've got $100 on it.

I didn't say that they will not do well, but they do alot of things that make no economic sense that have a bit to do with that word pride.:eek:

[BanginJimmy]

And that's my point better management

Its not about management. That 95% retirement is part of the union agreement. Its about political backing for the unions that allow them to take pretty much anything they want. The Big 3 have little to no leverage to negotiate while the union will shut down the plant and use political pressure to get what they want.

Look at what states foreign manufacturers are putting their plants. All of them are right to work states with no union strongholds. Because of this they can pay their people less and they can set up any retirement they want. If cardcheck passes, I wouldnt be suprised to see these foreign manufacturers closing those plants at the first hint of union involvement.