what is proper break in time??

[jap_racer1]

ok i am the guy that has all the posts about the gsr build stock valve the super highcompression well i rebuilt it to a 82 mm bore with nippon racing pr3 copy pistons je rings and acp race bearings complete rebuild crank up the head is gsr valves type r springs titanium retainers and type r cams nothing special?? how many miles do you feal i should go for a good break in before i hit it hard i am getting it tuned thursday and running on wendsday commerse is have the tune fest w/e friday and i would love to run it so what should i do??

[EmminoDaGreat]

hmm, did you call the shop today?

Break that shit in on tha dyno!!!
Everyone will tell you a diff way to do it tho... some say break em in how you are going to treat them, some say baby them... its all up to you..

[VickNotic]

break em in how you are going to treat them, on a dyno!

[Tracy]

We don't break in on the dyno (personal cars), unless customer wants us to. Just to be safe. But tr00 everyone will tell you something different. I broke my Evo in for 500 miles and it still runs to this day with 800 awhp.

[Init2winit]

ok i am the guy that has all the posts about the gsr build stock valve the super highcompression well i rebuilt it to a 82 mm bore with nippon racing pr3 copy pistons je rings and acp race bearings complete rebuild crank up the head is gsr valves type r springs titanium retainers and type r cams nothing special?? how many miles do you feal i should go for a good break in before i hit it hard i am getting it tuned thursday and running on wendsday commerse is have the tune fest w/e friday and i would love to run it so what should i do??Run it through a few heat cycles, adjust the valves, change the oil, and you're set. No need to pussy foot around for 1000 miles.

[redrumracer]

Run it through a few heat cycles, adjust the valves, change the oil, and you're set. No need to pussy foot around for 1000 miles.
TROOF but as already said everyone will tell you something different. there was a thread somewhere on here showing the difference between varied methods of breaking it in.

[Vteckidd]

ok i am the guy that has all the posts about the gsr build stock valve the super highcompression well i rebuilt it to a 82 mm bore with nippon racing pr3 copy pistons je rings and acp race bearings complete rebuild crank up the head is gsr valves type r springs titanium retainers and type r cams nothing special?? how many miles do you feal i should go for a good break in before i hit it hard i am getting it tuned thursday and running on wendsday commerse is have the tune fest w/e friday and i would love to run it so what should i do??
the proper way to do it is this

Crank car up, let it run for 20 min at IDLE. Check for coolant leaks/oil leaks. After 20 min and the car has reached operating temperature, shut car off.

Drain and replace OIL AND FILTER.

Crank car up again, SLightly Rev it to 3000rpms, 4000,5000. Let idle, check for coolant leaks /oil leaks AGAIN.

After that, tow the car to your nearest dyno and have the car tuned and broken in ON THE DYNO.

If you do it ANY OTHER WAY you are risking the money you have just forked out. The rings will seat in the first 100 miles, usually in the first 50. you need to vary load and get a good a/f ratio so as to not cause any damage to the bore or the rings.

If you do it this way you ensure good ring seal, good a/f ratio and a healthy motor.

Breaking it in EASY is a myth, and its the wrong way to do it, driving 500-1000 miles on it before tuning or whatever is WRONG. Think about it, you really wanna drive it 500-1000 miles on an air fuel ratio you have no idea if its lean or rich?

Not smart.

Break in should always be done on a dyno, or at least by a competent tuner on the street.

Good luck

[Init2winit]

the proper way to do it is this

Crank car up, let it run for 20 min at IDLE. Check for coolant leaks/oil leaks. After 20 min and the car has reached operating temperature, shut car off.

Drain and replace OIL AND FILTER.

Crank car up again, SLightly Rev it to 3000rpms, 4000,5000. Let idle, check for coolant leaks /oil leaks AGAIN.

After that, tow the car to your nearest dyno and have the car tuned and broken in ON THE DYNO.

If you do it ANY OTHER WAY you are risking the money you have just forked out. The rings will seat in the first 100 miles, usually in the first 50. you need to vary load and get a good a/f ratio so as to not cause any damage to the bore or the rings.

If you do it this way you ensure good ring seal, good a/f ratio and a healthy motor.

Breaking it in EASY is a myth, and its the wrong way to do it, driving 500-1000 miles on it before tuning or whatever is WRONG. Think about it, you really wanna drive it 500-1000 miles on an air fuel ratio you have no idea if its lean or rich?

Not smart.

Break in should always be done on a dyno, or at least by a competent tuner on the street.

Good luckThe rings are seated before the engine is ever fired. That is a myth, unless for some reason cast rings are being used.

[Vteckidd]

ehh i disagree, the rings have to be worn into the bore, thats what the hone is for. The only way to properly wear them in is to do it under high vacuum/lift throttle conditions, and under a proper fuel mixture.

Metal expands from heat, etc.

It is possible to have a lean mixture and cause his aftermarket piston dig into the cylinder wall and consequently his rings ARENT seated, then you get blow by.

Read this article, very good
http://www.importbuilders.com/breakinarticle.htm

Here is a question answer format to help the world understand how motors work and how to use them most reliably. This part on breaking in a motor is opinion and the parts on why certain things happen is based on experience and sound scientific principles.

What about the guy who told me I need to put 1000 miles on my motor before I tune it and that I need to "break it in"? I will be blunt. That person is not educated on motors. With 1 exception...if that person told you to DYNO your motor at narrow throttle, that your going to be driving it for a few hundred miles, that's fine... However...I see a lot of people that customers "think" are smart and they are recommending 1000 mile break ins on built motors! That is the stupidest thing you could possibly do! When you hear terms like this, BEWARE and RUN THE OTHER WAY, or CLOSE YOUR EYES: "Just put in a base map, and break it in for xxxx miles, then go tune it, give the rings time to seat.." RUN!! CLOSE YOUR EYES! That is insane, stupid and ignorant all at the same time. Base Map? What the heck is that? When Honda tells you to put xxxx miles on your motor, or whatever, its completely tuned already with great air fuel ratio's. Do don't think for one second your base map is worth a damn, because it is a shot in the dark. It sucks UNLESS you went to a dyno and fully tuned your car at the RPM's and throttle position your driving it at with a wideband hooked up to the car. That chip your using is somebody's educated guess at what will run the car. Its not intended to drive on for any extended periods of time on! (I HOPE THEY TOLD YOU THIS, if they didn't... RUN!!) If you have no other option, a basemap can be used for getting your car a FEW miles straight to the dyno, but I am very against that even and a tow truck would be better.. This is a theme you all need to understand: "Don't start your motor unless you can adjust the air/fuel ratio to a reasonable number right away". Anything else is unwise, and foolish. Wideband cost like $350 shipped, just buy one for you and all your buddies to share. Best money you ever spent.

So here is a lesson on what to do to make your motor run as good as you can with as little problems as possible.

#1 I got a brand new block/engine and I want to break it in properly. What should I do first? A most common question. The answer is surprisingly simplistic. First you have to inspect the hone finish of the block your breaking in. What grit was it honed to? 500? 400? If the hatchings on it are pronounced and clear, you most likely have a bad machined block that will require some break-in to smooth it out. If I got a block that had a very smooth hone finish, such as a plateau finished block (IB), this is what you do. When you get the motor in the car, and are ready to start it up make sure you have an oil pressure gauge installed. Install a wide band O2 sensor to read 02 ratio BEFORE YOU START IT. Then unplug the distributor and crank it over until you get oil pressure, should take a short time, under a minute sometimes. Then plug the distributor back in, and start it up with whatever program you have. Notice the air fuel ratio. The car is warming up, so its going to read a little rich at first. When the car fully warms up you want the air/fuel ratio to be as close to 14.7:1 as possible. Immediately adjust your tuning to make it 14.7 at idle right away. Use a injector multiplier change if you have management, if you don't, use a fuel pressure regulator for starts... Then when you get the car at 14.7 at idle, and make it idle at around 800-900 RPM, make sure the timing is at about 13-16 degrees. Now, with the air/fuel ratio meter working, take the car for a short drive on the dyno, or the street, driving as you would normally. DO NOT put the throttle past say 50%. Make sure the air/fuel ratio is around 14.7:1, but not over 15:1 all throughout the gears up to say, 4500 RPM. Now your car is drive able. You can drive it within those parameters ONLY. Which in English means: less than 50% throttle, and under 4500 RPMS ONLY. Until you tune for whatever area you want to drive in. You could literally drive the car 100k miles as long as you don't go outside those parameters and it should be fine. Air fuel ratio and timing is good...its good.

#2 Now I can drive it, when do I tune it? Well, there are 1000 opinions out on this one, but we do it this way, and its absolutely proven. We drive the car a few miles on the street maybe 50-100 miles? at 14.7:1 to make sure there are no problems with the motor, no coolant leaks, etc... Your going to want to drive it to no more than 50% throttle, up and down the RPM's at all kinds of variable throttle positions. 0-50%....then it goes straight on the dyno, where we start the real tuning. Basically, I drive it to see if there are any problems, not to break in the thing so to speak.

#3 How do you tune a motor now that I am on the dyno? I will right an expended section on this, but follow these parameters. Start fine tuning your normal throttle, like freeway driving, 20%, 30%, 40%..60% throttle, 70% throttle, etc...then go to like 2k RPM and do a pull to say 5K RPM full throttle. For all motor, adjust the air/fuel at FULL throttle all throughout the band to anywhere from 13:1 to say 13.5:1. That's pretty safe. If you start to floor it at 2k, and it reads 18:1 Air/Fuel ratio, IMMEDIATELY LET OFF! You do a full pass like that its disaster! Boy you REALLY have to trust your tuner. SERIOUS! Ok. So then after up to 5k is tuned, you go to 6k, then 7, then 8, then max. Of course, when your adjusting for 5k, your adjusting everything up to redline, even though you have not tried that yet...chances are, its going to need it too. Your not going to need -20% at 5k, then +10% at 8k in my experience...based off a stock map. It will generally go all up, or all down. Generally. So now your done.

http://www.importbuilders.com/images/overheated.jpg

I got a brand new block, fully built and its burning a lot of oil, WHY?
A picture explains why, the piston is all scarred up, which means your sleeve is all scarred up too!! the cylinder walls are no longer even/smooth, and oil can get past the oil ring and your burning it. In the above case, with 1-2 pistons like this, about 1 quart a week. This is a real bad case.

What caused my piston to do this? The answer is simple. IT OVER-EXPANDED due to excessive amounts of HEAT!!!. See #1, #2 and #3! When a motor runs at too lean of an air/fuel ratio, say 15:1 at almost full throttle, or full throttle, for even a few seconds...your piston is building up heat REAL fast. When it builds up heat, it expands...that's what metal does when its heated. Well, you only have so much room until the skirt comes into full contact with the sleeve and does the ABOVE. Tuning issue. Clear as day. And it will do this driving down the street, or driving on the freeway too...you drive on the freeway at too lean of a ratio and the heat will build slower, but after a certain time, your piston will go into the cylinder wall and your like the above.

GET THIS! I have dyno'd so many cars...every time a person comes to dyno I will ask him a few questions about his motor like: What kind of pistons are in this motor, bore size, cams, head milled, and if i can't tell how big the injectors are, I ask him that too.. BUT GET THIS. For some reason A LOT of people think when you get a motor, say a 2 liter B20 that's 12:1 compression, you can just replace the block and "break" it in so to speak. Well, your B16A motor has puny 240 CC injectors say, with a stock fuel pressure regulator. Then the guy comes to dyno and I see all that and I say: "you have what block with what compression???" Then I ask him "how much oil are you burning a week?" Answer usually: "it burns a lot of oil, and I don't know why!" I KNOW WHY! You got the wrong injectors and you drive it without knowing its air/fuel ratio! BIG MISTAKE!! Lots of guys with CTR pistons in GSR's with stock everything too, they burn oil with the stock pistons and wonder why all day...

I have seen this a lot in this industry is the engine builder at fault at all? In the above case, no, not at all, because the piston was installed at a set distance from the cylinder wall based on the type of piston. Say it says on the instructions .003 like some Wiseco do. Well, actually this is VERY conservative because you can actually get away with installing them at .002 with good tuning. So Wiseco, or Je or whoever, recommend a safe distance to allow you room for tuning error. Knowing this, the engine builder has 0 to do with the above picture. Did the engine builder start up your car with no wideband then drive it for 1, 100, 500 or 1000 miles before he took it to tune? No, YOU did that, or whoever you paid to do it... Whoever does this just suicides that motor because you don't know what Air/Fuel ratio the motor was at when your driving, and that's just sheer madness! You spend 10k on a motor then install it with some stupid base program and some different injectors and think its ok? That's insane, and it is folly. Be smart. Revert to #1, #2 and #3. And don't go and blame your engine builder, that's ridiculous. They had nothing to do with it. And the engine builder has no control over the injectors you have either!! You get a 13:1 compression 85 MM block on your GSR, no matter what, your stock injectors are not going to work...they will hit 100% duty cycle EARLY in the RPM band!! Guess what! Your burning oil. A sign of too lean....

After I took apart my block, the machine shop said my cylinders had gone oval slightly. Well, that's pure rocket science! If you look at the picture above, its no wonder your cylinders went oval!! You got 2 skirts pressing up against opposite sides of the sleeve with extreme force! Also, if you don't inspect what you buy BEFORE you install it to check for ovaling, proper piston to wall clearance, then you can't say anything to the effect later down the road.

Above picture happens, now you say: "Those pistons suck, and I will never buy from so and so again" That is totally ill-responsible, and its a good thing most of the people out there know better. Did the guy you bought your pistons from drive your car untuned and melt your pistons? Did JE pistons sell you pistons that magically over expand? No, the responsibility is on the driver/owner/tuner of that car. Blaming anyone else is a pure scapegoat tactic with no merit at all. Also, you could hear people complaining somebody's bore and hone job was off by X amount. Ask yourself: "is the amount its off acceptable?" And if no amount is acceptable, can you please put a memo out to tell the world where the bore and hone job is perfect within 1/10,000 of an inch so everyone can go there? And will they guarantee in writing for they buy your motor it will be perfect every time? No? WHY! lol Did you check the piston to wall clearance when you received your new block that's been blueprinted and triple checked? you didn't? And then 2,000 miles later after you melt all the pistons you want your money back? Or you slander that company all over the internet? For real? I think the public is smarter than that now. Its obvious when somebody is trying to find a scapegoat for mistakes they don't want to admit to.

You got advice from your engine builder, but don't take it and listen to your buddy who thinks he knows better, or your local shop. This is common. Not from me only, but hundreds of shops I talk to. They will have a lot of experience in 1 area, and will tell the customer some great advice, and then the customer will neglect the good advice and take the advice of some guy who doesn't even build motors, dyno cars or work on his own car himself! This is amazing. People will take the advice of some 19 year old punk on the internet who never built a motor before they listen to some guy who has been building motors for NASCAR 15 years! I mean, I have dyno'd probably about 3000 cars and seen and worked on several hundreds of motors personally, with my own hands. I have broken in 10's of motors myself, and tuned them myself. I have made mistakes and I have done it perfect. If you don't think I know what I am talking about regarding pistons, rods, blocks, heads, tuning, or breaking in a part or motor, then please, find somebody else who has similar experience. Whatever you do, do not listen to some guy on the internet who works a full time job, lives with his mom and doesn't do this for a living. Most people I see nowadays are on internet web boards asking questions and getting advice from some 19 year old kid who has a stock civic DX he bought for 2 grand! Then you got the other crowd always offering advice, but never have built a motor. They get all their info and data from what they read on the internet. Some of these people are OK, because they find sources that are reliable, and trustworthy to spread around. Other people are idiots, and spread around misinformation just to gain status and look cool. These people are obvious after a while.

Find a shop you trust and do what they say! Find somebody who has a grip of high HP motors that are reliable and run a long time, PROVEN and listen to everything they say and do what they say! I love it when I get a person who comes to me, then I tell him, "hey, we are doing this, we are tuning it this way, we are using this part, etc" and then he says to me: "I don't want to do it that way, I think you should use this part, and do it this way, tune it this way, etc etc etc" I feel like saying "wow, how much can I PAY YOU to do all that FOR ME!" meaning, why are you paying me, when you got all the answers yourself! ROFL! You PAY somebody money because you NEED them. If you don't NEED something and can do it yourself, why pay for it! Find a shop you like and listen! DO IT! When you buy a set of pistons from me, and I tell you "make sure you have a wideband on that thing, the second you start the car so you can iinitially drive it with the proper air/fuel ratio!". When I tell you that, YOU DO IT! Because thats PROVEN to make your entire experience in this industry better! And even if you think I am wrong, it won't hurt a damn thing!

The Blame game! You can blame everyone from here to kingdom come for why your motor is burning oil, why your pistons melted, why this why that, but its not going to fix the problem! Best thing you can do is BE NICE TO PEOPLE and LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE! BE SMART! If you don't want to admit you messed up, don't go and blame the last guy to touch your car! Blame yourself for being under-informed! Learn from it! I am fair, and I am honest. When you buy from me, you get straight answers. I know the above brief offends some people. But....

Rule in Business! You can't make everyone happy! So when you see somebody knocking another company, any company for something you know is their fault, ignore them! hundreds of import companies are trying their best to please their customers! But if your going to blame them for every little problem that is not their fault, don't even even bother modifying your car! When your car leaves whatever shop your at, and you approve the work, the rest, is all on you! So be informed, be cautious and OBEY rules #1 through #3!

More on how exactly how to tune a car later. I know a few things, everyone must spread around for the benefit of the industry. When you buy a block from IB, you can count on this break in procedure to work for you because the hone job is the best you can buy with money. Beware of buying blocks from people that don't even know what grit the final hone was done at or that have visually very cross-hatched blocks. There are a lot of people who "appear" to be smart about engines, who you might see on some site on the internet or whatever, with thousands of posts. Some people say whatever they need to to make a sale, and don't even know what they are selling! Hype and talk doesn't build good motors. Also beware of people that you can see, logging 10+ hours a day of BSing on message boards. How can they be involved in building motors, and the whole quality assurance process when they are online 10+ hours a day? They must have a laptop on their engine building stand I guess. I can say, first hand, we have done in the Hundreds of blocks, as in ranging up in the 500 block+ area. I have been the #1 customer at many large companies that you can call to confirm. We are the anti-hype. We do the volume, we have the success, we have the best procedures, the best products, the most proven. I have stood over, and watched being built to assure quality assurance, and built them myself all those blocks. I open up a new engine building room here soon, where I can build them even more efficiently. I can tell you that I know how my blocks work and break in because, heck, I have tuned them with less than 5 miles on them and seen the customers drive them around for years! Watch out, there is a lot of hype and salesmanship going on that is easy to see through. We build them, have installed them, and tuned them. We know our products like no other.
Oh and recently, in 2005 to practice what I preach, I built a motor for a friend of mine, hooked up the wideband, started it up, set the air fuel ratio to 14.7, he drove home, then drove to dyno with hardly any miles on the motor. Five minutes later on the dyno, I am doing 10,000 RPM on the motor a good 30+ times in a row. And you look in the muffler, at the exhaust interior pipe and its clean metal, no soot, no black, nothing. Because the bore and hone was so clean and straight, the rings didn't need a long term break in.

[speedminded]

The initial start up, warm up, and first 15-30 minutes or so is the most important...get it tuned if it's not a stock engine with a stock ECU, then change the oil SEVERAL times the first 1,000 miles. That's a proper break-in.

Some people recommend using conventional oil the first 500 to 1,000 miles before switching to synthetic.

[SLOWR/T]

ehh i disagree, the rings have to be worn into the bore, thats what the hone is for. The only way to properly wear them in is to do it under high vacuum/lift throttle conditions, and under a proper fuel mixture.

Metal expands from heat, etc.

It is possible to have a lean mixture and cause his aftermarket piston dig into the cylinder wall and consequently his rings ARENT seated, then you get blow by.

Read this article, very good
http://www.importbuilders.com/breakinarticle.htm

Here is a question answer format to help the world understand how motors work and how to use them most reliably. This part on breaking in a motor is opinion and the parts on why certain things happen is based on experience and sound scientific principles.

What about the guy who told me I need to put 1000 miles on my motor before I tune it and that I need to "break it in"? I will be blunt. That person is not educated on motors. With 1 exception...if that person told you to DYNO your motor at narrow throttle, that your going to be driving it for a few hundred miles, that's fine... However...I see a lot of people that customers "think" are smart and they are recommending 1000 mile break ins on built motors! That is the stupidest thing you could possibly do! When you hear terms like this, BEWARE and RUN THE OTHER WAY, or CLOSE YOUR EYES: "Just put in a base map, and break it in for xxxx miles, then go tune it, give the rings time to seat.." RUN!! CLOSE YOUR EYES! That is insane, stupid and ignorant all at the same time. Base Map? What the heck is that? When Honda tells you to put xxxx miles on your motor, or whatever, its completely tuned already with great air fuel ratio's. Do don't think for one second your base map is worth a damn, because it is a shot in the dark. It sucks UNLESS you went to a dyno and fully tuned your car at the RPM's and throttle position your driving it at with a wideband hooked up to the car. That chip your using is somebody's educated guess at what will run the car. Its not intended to drive on for any extended periods of time on! (I HOPE THEY TOLD YOU THIS, if they didn't... RUN!!) If you have no other option, a basemap can be used for getting your car a FEW miles straight to the dyno, but I am very against that even and a tow truck would be better.. This is a theme you all need to understand: "Don't start your motor unless you can adjust the air/fuel ratio to a reasonable number right away". Anything else is unwise, and foolish. Wideband cost like $350 shipped, just buy one for you and all your buddies to share. Best money you ever spent.

So here is a lesson on what to do to make your motor run as good as you can with as little problems as possible.

#1 I got a brand new block/engine and I want to break it in properly. What should I do first? A most common question. The answer is surprisingly simplistic. First you have to inspect the hone finish of the block your breaking in. What grit was it honed to? 500? 400? If the hatchings on it are pronounced and clear, you most likely have a bad machined block that will require some break-in to smooth it out. If I got a block that had a very smooth hone finish, such as a plateau finished block (IB), this is what you do. When you get the motor in the car, and are ready to start it up make sure you have an oil pressure gauge installed. Install a wide band O2 sensor to read 02 ratio BEFORE YOU START IT. Then unplug the distributor and crank it over until you get oil pressure, should take a short time, under a minute sometimes. Then plug the distributor back in, and start it up with whatever program you have. Notice the air fuel ratio. The car is warming up, so its going to read a little rich at first. When the car fully warms up you want the air/fuel ratio to be as close to 14.7:1 as possible. Immediately adjust your tuning to make it 14.7 at idle right away. Use a injector multiplier change if you have management, if you don't, use a fuel pressure regulator for starts... Then when you get the car at 14.7 at idle, and make it idle at around 800-900 RPM, make sure the timing is at about 13-16 degrees. Now, with the air/fuel ratio meter working, take the car for a short drive on the dyno, or the street, driving as you would normally. DO NOT put the throttle past say 50%. Make sure the air/fuel ratio is around 14.7:1, but not over 15:1 all throughout the gears up to say, 4500 RPM. Now your car is drive able. You can drive it within those parameters ONLY. Which in English means: less than 50% throttle, and under 4500 RPMS ONLY. Until you tune for whatever area you want to drive in. You could literally drive the car 100k miles as long as you don't go outside those parameters and it should be fine. Air fuel ratio and timing is good...its good.

#2 Now I can drive it, when do I tune it? Well, there are 1000 opinions out on this one, but we do it this way, and its absolutely proven. We drive the car a few miles on the street maybe 50-100 miles? at 14.7:1 to make sure there are no problems with the motor, no coolant leaks, etc... Your going to want to drive it to no more than 50% throttle, up and down the RPM's at all kinds of variable throttle positions. 0-50%....then it goes straight on the dyno, where we start the real tuning. Basically, I drive it to see if there are any problems, not to break in the thing so to speak.

#3 How do you tune a motor now that I am on the dyno? I will right an expended section on this, but follow these parameters. Start fine tuning your normal throttle, like freeway driving, 20%, 30%, 40%..60% throttle, 70% throttle, etc...then go to like 2k RPM and do a pull to say 5K RPM full throttle. For all motor, adjust the air/fuel at FULL throttle all throughout the band to anywhere from 13:1 to say 13.5:1. That's pretty safe. If you start to floor it at 2k, and it reads 18:1 Air/Fuel ratio, IMMEDIATELY LET OFF! You do a full pass like that its disaster! Boy you REALLY have to trust your tuner. SERIOUS! Ok. So then after up to 5k is tuned, you go to 6k, then 7, then 8, then max. Of course, when your adjusting for 5k, your adjusting everything up to redline, even though you have not tried that yet...chances are, its going to need it too. Your not going to need -20% at 5k, then +10% at 8k in my experience...based off a stock map. It will generally go all up, or all down. Generally. So now your done.

http://www.importbuilders.com/images/overheated.jpg

I got a brand new block, fully built and its burning a lot of oil, WHY?
A picture explains why, the piston is all scarred up, which means your sleeve is all scarred up too!! the cylinder walls are no longer even/smooth, and oil can get past the oil ring and your burning it. In the above case, with 1-2 pistons like this, about 1 quart a week. This is a real bad case.

What caused my piston to do this? The answer is simple. IT OVER-EXPANDED due to excessive amounts of HEAT!!!. See #1, #2 and #3! When a motor runs at too lean of an air/fuel ratio, say 15:1 at almost full throttle, or full throttle, for even a few seconds...your piston is building up heat REAL fast. When it builds up heat, it expands...that's what metal does when its heated. Well, you only have so much room until the skirt comes into full contact with the sleeve and does the ABOVE. Tuning issue. Clear as day. And it will do this driving down the street, or driving on the freeway too...you drive on the freeway at too lean of a ratio and the heat will build slower, but after a certain time, your piston will go into the cylinder wall and your like the above.

GET THIS! I have dyno'd so many cars...every time a person comes to dyno I will ask him a few questions about his motor like: What kind of pistons are in this motor, bore size, cams, head milled, and if i can't tell how big the injectors are, I ask him that too.. BUT GET THIS. For some reason A LOT of people think when you get a motor, say a 2 liter B20 that's 12:1 compression, you can just replace the block and "break" it in so to speak. Well, your B16A motor has puny 240 CC injectors say, with a stock fuel pressure regulator. Then the guy comes to dyno and I see all that and I say: "you have what block with what compression???" Then I ask him "how much oil are you burning a week?" Answer usually: "it burns a lot of oil, and I don't know why!" I KNOW WHY! You got the wrong injectors and you drive it without knowing its air/fuel ratio! BIG MISTAKE!! Lots of guys with CTR pistons in GSR's with stock everything too, they burn oil with the stock pistons and wonder why all day...

I have seen this a lot in this industry is the engine builder at fault at all? In the above case, no, not at all, because the piston was installed at a set distance from the cylinder wall based on the type of piston. Say it says on the instructions .003 like some Wiseco do. Well, actually this is VERY conservative because you can actually get away with installing them at .002 with good tuning. So Wiseco, or Je or whoever, recommend a safe distance to allow you room for tuning error. Knowing this, the engine builder has 0 to do with the above picture. Did the engine builder start up your car with no wideband then drive it for 1, 100, 500 or 1000 miles before he took it to tune? No, YOU did that, or whoever you paid to do it... Whoever does this just suicides that motor because you don't know what Air/Fuel ratio the motor was at when your driving, and that's just sheer madness! You spend 10k on a motor then install it with some stupid base program and some different injectors and think its ok? That's insane, and it is folly. Be smart. Revert to #1, #2 and #3. And don't go and blame your engine builder, that's ridiculous. They had nothing to do with it. And the engine builder has no control over the injectors you have either!! You get a 13:1 compression 85 MM block on your GSR, no matter what, your stock injectors are not going to work...they will hit 100% duty cycle EARLY in the RPM band!! Guess what! Your burning oil. A sign of too lean....

After I took apart my block, the machine shop said my cylinders had gone oval slightly. Well, that's pure rocket science! If you look at the picture above, its no wonder your cylinders went oval!! You got 2 skirts pressing up against opposite sides of the sleeve with extreme force! Also, if you don't inspect what you buy BEFORE you install it to check for ovaling, proper piston to wall clearance, then you can't say anything to the effect later down the road.

Above picture happens, now you say: "Those pistons suck, and I will never buy from so and so again" That is totally ill-responsible, and its a good thing most of the people out there know better. Did the guy you bought your pistons from drive your car untuned and melt your pistons? Did JE pistons sell you pistons that magically over expand? No, the responsibility is on the driver/owner/tuner of that car. Blaming anyone else is a pure scapegoat tactic with no merit at all. Also, you could hear people complaining somebody's bore and hone job was off by X amount. Ask yourself: "is the amount its off acceptable?" And if no amount is acceptable, can you please put a memo out to tell the world where the bore and hone job is perfect within 1/10,000 of an inch so everyone can go there? And will they guarantee in writing for they buy your motor it will be perfect every time? No? WHY! lol Did you check the piston to wall clearance when you received your new block that's been blueprinted and triple checked? you didn't? And then 2,000 miles later after you melt all the pistons you want your money back? Or you slander that company all over the internet? For real? I think the public is smarter than that now. Its obvious when somebody is trying to find a scapegoat for mistakes they don't want to admit to.

You got advice from your engine builder, but don't take it and listen to your buddy who thinks he knows better, or your local shop. This is common. Not from me only, but hundreds of shops I talk to. They will have a lot of experience in 1 area, and will tell the customer some great advice, and then the customer will neglect the good advice and take the advice of some guy who doesn't even build motors, dyno cars or work on his own car himself! This is amazing. People will take the advice of some 19 year old punk on the internet who never built a motor before they listen to some guy who has been building motors for NASCAR 15 years! I mean, I have dyno'd probably about 3000 cars and seen and worked on several hundreds of motors personally, with my own hands. I have broken in 10's of motors myself, and tuned them myself. I have made mistakes and I have done it perfect. If you don't think I know what I am talking about regarding pistons, rods, blocks, heads, tuning, or breaking in a part or motor, then please, find somebody else who has similar experience. Whatever you do, do not listen to some guy on the internet who works a full time job, lives with his mom and doesn't do this for a living. Most people I see nowadays are on internet web boards asking questions and getting advice from some 19 year old kid who has a stock civic DX he bought for 2 grand! Then you got the other crowd always offering advice, but never have built a motor. They get all their info and data from what they read on the internet. Some of these people are OK, because they find sources that are reliable, and trustworthy to spread around. Other people are idiots, and spread around misinformation just to gain status and look cool. These people are obvious after a while.

Find a shop you trust and do what they say! Find somebody who has a grip of high HP motors that are reliable and run a long time, PROVEN and listen to everything they say and do what they say! I love it when I get a person who comes to me, then I tell him, "hey, we are doing this, we are tuning it this way, we are using this part, etc" and then he says to me: "I don't want to do it that way, I think you should use this part, and do it this way, tune it this way, etc etc etc" I feel like saying "wow, how much can I PAY YOU to do all that FOR ME!" meaning, why are you paying me, when you got all the answers yourself! ROFL! You PAY somebody money because you NEED them. If you don't NEED something and can do it yourself, why pay for it! Find a shop you like and listen! DO IT! When you buy a set of pistons from me, and I tell you "make sure you have a wideband on that thing, the second you start the car so you can iinitially drive it with the proper air/fuel ratio!". When I tell you that, YOU DO IT! Because thats PROVEN to make your entire experience in this industry better! And even if you think I am wrong, it won't hurt a damn thing!

The Blame game! You can blame everyone from here to kingdom come for why your motor is burning oil, why your pistons melted, why this why that, but its not going to fix the problem! Best thing you can do is BE NICE TO PEOPLE and LEARN FROM THE EXPERIENCE! BE SMART! If you don't want to admit you messed up, don't go and blame the last guy to touch your car! Blame yourself for being under-informed! Learn from it! I am fair, and I am honest. When you buy from me, you get straight answers. I know the above brief offends some people. But....

Rule in Business! You can't make everyone happy! So when you see somebody knocking another company, any company for something you know is their fault, ignore them! hundreds of import companies are trying their best to please their customers! But if your going to blame them for every little problem that is not their fault, don't even even bother modifying your car! When your car leaves whatever shop your at, and you approve the work, the rest, is all on you! So be informed, be cautious and OBEY rules #1 through #3!

More on how exactly how to tune a car later. I know a few things, everyone must spread around for the benefit of the industry. When you buy a block from IB, you can count on this break in procedure to work for you because the hone job is the best you can buy with money. Beware of buying blocks from people that don't even know what grit the final hone was done at or that have visually very cross-hatched blocks. There are a lot of people who "appear" to be smart about engines, who you might see on some site on the internet or whatever, with thousands of posts. Some people say whatever they need to to make a sale, and don't even know what they are selling! Hype and talk doesn't build good motors. Also beware of people that you can see, logging 10+ hours a day of BSing on message boards. How can they be involved in building motors, and the whole quality assurance process when they are online 10+ hours a day? They must have a laptop on their engine building stand I guess. I can say, first hand, we have done in the Hundreds of blocks, as in ranging up in the 500 block+ area. I have been the #1 customer at many large companies that you can call to confirm. We are the anti-hype. We do the volume, we have the success, we have the best procedures, the best products, the most proven. I have stood over, and watched being built to assure quality assurance, and built them myself all those blocks. I open up a new engine building room here soon, where I can build them even more efficiently. I can tell you that I know how my blocks work and break in because, heck, I have tuned them with less than 5 miles on them and seen the customers drive them around for years! Watch out, there is a lot of hype and salesmanship going on that is easy to see through. We build them, have installed them, and tuned them. We know our products like no other.
Oh and recently, in 2005 to practice what I preach, I built a motor for a friend of mine, hooked up the wideband, started it up, set the air fuel ratio to 14.7, he drove home, then drove to dyno with hardly any miles on the motor. Five minutes later on the dyno, I am doing 10,000 RPM on the motor a good 30+ times in a row. And you look in the muffler, at the exhaust interior pipe and its clean metal, no soot, no black, nothing. Because the bore and hone was so clean and straight, the rings didn't need a long term break in.


Thats a good read. Long but good.

[Init2winit]

I don't need to read anything. From the hundreds of engines that I've built over the years, I have gathered my own facts.

[Vteckidd]

I respect your opinion, but i know a thing or 2 myself.

I dont see how you can say the rings seat before the motor is ever fired.

Do you not agree with Hones then? I mean the purpose of the hone is to wear the ring evenly into the bore.

Vacuum is what cause the rings to "push out" but if the bore is too big, they have nothing to push out against on.

Follow me?

Id love to hear your theories :thumbup:

[Tracy]

I don't need to read anything. From the hundreds of engines that I've built over the years, I have gathered my own facts.
W3RD :goodjob:

[Vteckidd]

LOL what have you ever built Tracy?

Ive built my fair share of motors, and i did make one of the highest whp engines till this day.

I also am GOOD friends with people that have built motors for the last 30 years. Everything from Cosworth to Honda to Formula stuff. I pick their brain cause there is so much BULLSHIT on the internet its not funny.

The article i quoted is from Jeff at IMPORT BUILDERS, and IMO, as prob THE Honda authority on this site from my experience, he is right. That is how you break a motor in. When i stumbled across that article a few years back, it was because i had built my first motor and was consuming oil. I had no idea why, come to find out, it was cause i knew nothing about tuning, proper break in, etc.

WHen my 2.0l LSVTEC was built, we broke it in HARD and it made TONS of power. It never smoked a drop (until i started crushing valve stem seals).

ALl my friends motors were smoking, and there was this real problem with the NA Honda Community in atlanta that were just not seeing the power they wanted, and they were having issues with oil consumption. Alot of it was from lack of tuning, improper piston to wall clearance, crappy hones from crappy machine shops, etc.

thank god i found Rocket from Rocket Motorsports who steered me toward Don Flores. Don is the BEST engine builder on the east coast, perhaps the nation when it comes to Hondas which is what the OP thread is about.

I think my opinion, considering ive built, owned, and been around hondas and a honda shop IE MAINSTREAM, i think i know what im talking about.

Charles has prob built more engines for hondas than anyone in Atlanta IMO. AN his track record is pretty good (everything from 200whp-630whp). Even though we have had disagreements in the past, i think he will agree with what i am saying.

So will Emminodagreat
so will DonF
so will Jim Justice

I mean hell, you dont want to believe me, dont , call ERL, call DFE ENterprises, Call Golden Eagle. ask them. Not everyone can build 100 motors to figure out what is right, you have to sometimes trust people. An that can get tricky cause alot of people dont know what they are talking about. So, if you have the money to experiment and find out what works, go for it, or you can listen to people that have been there and found out what works an what doesnt.

But, init2winit im not saying you are wrong, if you have any technical or personal exsperience id love to hear it, like more in depth

[Tracy]

LOL what have you ever built Tracy?

Ive built my fair share of motors, and i did make one of the highest whp engines till this day.

I also am GOOD friends with people that have built motors for the last 30 years. Everything from Cosworth to Honda to Formula stuff. I pick their brain cause there is so much BULLSHIT on the internet its not funny.

The article i quoted is from Jeff at IMPORT BUILDERS, and IMO, as prob THE Honda authority on this site from my experience, he is right. That is how you break a motor in. When i stumbled across that article a few years back, it was because i had built my first motor and was consuming oil. I had no idea why, come to find out, it was cause i knew nothing about tuning, proper break in, etc.

WHen my 2.0l LSVTEC was built, we broke it in HARD and it made TONS of power. It never smoked a drop (until i started crushing valve stem seals).

ALl my friends motors were smoking, and there was this real problem with the NA Honda Community in atlanta that were just not seeing the power they wanted, and they were having issues with oil consumption. Alot of it was from lack of tuning, improper piston to wall clearance, crappy hones from crappy machine shops, etc.

thank god i found Rocket from Rocket Motorsports who steered me toward Don Flores. Don is the BEST engine builder on the east coast, perhaps the nation when it comes to Hondas which is what the OP thread is about.

I think my opinion, considering ive built, owned, and been around hondas and a honda shop IE MAINSTREAM, i think i know what im talking about.

Charles has prob built more engines for hondas than anyone in Atlanta IMO. AN his track record is pretty good (everything from 200whp-630whp). Even though we have had disagreements in the past, i think he will agree with what i am saying.

So will Emminodagreat
so will DonF
so will Jim Justice

I mean hell, you dont want to believe me, dont , call ERL, call DFE ENterprises, Call Golden Eagle. ask them. Not everyone can build 100 motors to figure out what is right, you have to sometimes trust people. An that can get tricky cause alot of people dont know what they are talking about. So, if you have the money to experiment and find out what works, go for it, or you can listen to people that have been there and found out what works an what doesnt.

But, init2winit im not saying you are wrong, if you have any technical or personal exsperience id love to hear it, like more in depth

Why are you addressing me again? I just don't get it. I never said I built anything. I was speaking to Init2winit. Giving him props. Is this against IA rules now? I'm not sure why you are jumping on a one W3RD post I made quoting someone else. Get off my dick before you give me aids. Your paranoia is getting the best of you, son.

edit: I haven't even read any of your long winded posts in this thread, so I can't agree or disagree with you. If I have a question about car things, I ask my man...not people on IA.

[Vteckidd]

oh come on

you were saying W3RD to someone saying that experience trumps knowledge

i was inquiring as to what your knowledge was thats all. Like i said theres alot of BS on the internet.

dont take it so personally lol


i think i just shed a tear, awwwwwwwwww

[Tracy]

oh come on

you were saying W3RD to someone saying that experience trumps knowledge

i was inquiring as to what your knowledge was thats all. Like i said theres alot of BS on the internet.

dont take it so personally lol


i think i just shed a tear, awwwwwwwwww

Ok? I agree with that post. Is there a problem with that? I think experience trumps what one may read on the internet or otherwise. Actually, I think a combo of both is best. I haven't built ANYTHING EVER. Never claimed to. I have been pretty damn close with someone who has built his fair share of innovative and fast cars. I happen to have a lot of "experience" with the operations of a shop and have seen a lot in my day. I think I am entitled to an opinion at least....regardless of what I have built.

edit: I think I already gave my reason for my beliefs and it has to do with my Evo. I guess I should say I DID NOT BUILD THE CAR. All I know is Dan's break in process and it seems to work. I have to follow the rules he gives me when he builds me a car. I tend to follow them.

Feel any better now about the bullshit I am spreading on the internet?

[Vteckidd]

nah, i think it came off wrong.

I was not taking a shot at you, i was making a joke, but i guess i forgot we cant do that.

I know you ran/own date the guy that owns a shop in Atlanta.

what about your drift car, i remember letting it rip on the dyno with no break in, or maybe that was Dans. What about Dans Supra?

thats all, i was not talknig down to you

[SPOOLIN]

i always do this:

Build engine

Install engine

run engine and check for leaks

mount car and make 700 hp.

total break in time: 3 hrs lol

[Tracy]

nah, i think it came off wrong.

I was not taking a shot at you, i was making a joke, but i guess i forgot we cant do that.

I know you ran/own date the guy that owns a shop in Atlanta.

what about your drift car, i remember letting it rip on the dyno with no break in, or maybe that was Dans. What about Dans Supra?

thats all, i was not talknig down to you

Dan broke his 240 in on the dyno for time purposes. It doesn't really get driven on the street. It's a purpose built car. It would be pretty hard to get 500 miles on a freshly built drift only car. Same goes for the drag car. I assume that MOST people on here and even the OP aren't talking about an 8 sec drag only Supra or a 450 whp drift only Supra. In the case of DD cars, we suggest a street break in with a few steps involved. To be honest, I can't remember the specific steps. We did break in Dans' Supra in on the street when it was a DD. We broke in my Evo on the street. We also broke in the 240 back in the day when it was a DD. I know we had Ron Friday break his in on the street, etc.

Like I said, I can't speak on the technicalities behind any of it. I just know what I hear and what I am told around the shop and or customers.

We can have a civil conversation and you can joke all you want. I love jokes. I'm just not into be belittled by you or by anyone for that matter. Remember what I said last time we got into this - you aren't special. I don't take much shit from anyone. Thus my reputation that I am fully aware of.

[SPOOLIN]

every street car ive been involved with has broke in fine on the dyno, no drawn out street break in.

[southside]

I have heard mixed opinions from many people,I believe its a two way thing.Some people say break it in on the street for 1000miles.Others say soon as you build it dyno it ,and third but not least build it ,then take it to the track.Many people have different opinions.Me myself sure know I dont have alot of money to get my car tuned soon as its running.So I will be getting a basemap then break in and tuned after the 1000mile mark.But I know alot of people that break there car in on the street for 1000miles stock and go traffic.And they never have had any problems from there car.And I have alot seen people that have built cars and taking them straight to the track to run.But me myself, I think its all up to you and if you trust which ever method you chose.I hope it works out the best for ya because when you spent all that time and money one thing you dont wanna see is a leak or smoke.

[SleepingTalon]

Init2winit is correct. The only real reason I ever do the break in is so that I seat the top ring to the PISTON MANUFACTURERS specs. If you read the literature they give you with the pistons, you'll see the amount of time they ask for "proper ring seating", but the only reason I do it, is so that I've done what they've asked...just in case I have a problem later. Buschur's race motors require NO break in, as did AMS's, BJ's (back when he was around), etc. In fact, I'm tuning a car tomorrow at BG that has a Buschur motor in it, and it has NO BREAK IN. Fast idle, change oil, strap on the dyno, and beat on it.
Dan knows all these tricks too. However, he's never in any real hurry to tune a car with a motor he just built, so why not let the customer drive it around for awhile and then come back? Also, not every car that comes in has a motor built by him, so he has to account for other people fuck ups. This is the reason he's very cautious about it.

[Vteckidd]

well the main thing to remember, is do what your engine builder tells you. Cause he is the one that will ultimately take care of anything if it breaks.

DonF told me to give it hell, we broke my 2.0l in on an engine dyno within 5 min of running it was doing 9800rpms.

Charles i know builds alot of Mainstreams motors and IIRC they advocate tuning immiedietely if you can afford it. WHen i worked there we did alot of 600whp cars that were fired up in 1 bay, then driven to the dyno for scotty to tune it.

My knowledge comes alot from people that have done this more than me. An id take Charles from Mainstreams word and DonFs , ive built 3 motors, theyve built hundreds.

who am i to disagree with people that know what works

[LongLiveH2b]

I dont have alot of money to get my car tuned soon as its running.So I will be getting a basemap then break in and tuned after the 1000mile mark.


so why continue if you dont have money, most people do what you do and there setup goes into the trash, c'mon man if your getting the basemap atleast drive it to your tuning shop and thats it, driving and breaking in your setup with basemap for 1000miles is stupid cuz thats not your settings (timing, A/F ratios,compression etc.)

[SPOOLIN]

so why continue if you dont have money, most people do what you do and there setup goes into the trash, c'mon man if your getting the basemap atleast drive it to your tuning shop and thats it, driving and breaking in your setup with basemap for 1000miles is stupid cuz thats not your settings (timing, A/F ratios,compression etc.)

your right, i would at MINIMUM get the engine tuned to street-ability driving, not just a base map loaded on there. I still think you should make sure you got all the moneys and just crank her and tune her all at once. Break in periods are just out dated.

[BABY J]

So you think that DonF is THE best Honda engine builder in the nation Mike? You think he is even in the top 5?

(no flame - just asking):cheers:


And I agree w/ SPOOLIN - the break-in stuff is dated. It's from back in the day when we couldn't machine metal to the standards we can today. Technology all but eliminated that I think.

[SPOOLIN]

Im sure don is up there. He has the tools and the knowledge and experience to be up there.

[southside]

so why continue if you dont have money, most people do what you do and there setup goes into the trash, c'mon man if your getting the basemap atleast drive it to your tuning shop and thats it, driving and breaking in your setup with basemap for 1000miles is stupid cuz thats not your settings (timing, A/F ratios,compression etc.)Yes that is true but I have seen over 30 people get there motors built and broke them in on stock ecus:thinking: and they still run strong til this day.I have not heard any complaints or customer returns:thinking: .I'd rather ride on a basemap then on a stock ecu:goodjob:

[BABY J]

Im sure don is up there. He has the tools and the knowledge and experience to be up there.

I can dig it. I think we all have our "heros" - DF just never stuck out to me. Doesn't mean that he isn't the fuckin man, just not mine I guess. Interestingly enough, you could get a buncha experienced guys to list their top 5 in the nation and that list would never be the same. (in no particular order)

Larry Widmer (duh)
Jeff (Import Builders)
Elton Lo (Raceline)
Jim Stewart (www.stewartengines.com (http://www.stewartengines.com/))
Jim Thompson (A FUCKING GENIUS IF U ASK ME) -- AND homespun (Atlanta) as well!!! (Sunbelt Racing Engines, which is now bought by Kinetic I think)

--> and honorable mention: Joe DeMaree (ex Nopi Pro FWD Champ), but is known less for building and more for driving.
--> honorable mention: Dr. Charles

I've worked w/ all of the above except Charles in my 15 years in the game.

I think that we base these off of who we have worked w/ and not so much who the "best" is --- like, if I had had the op to work w/ DF I would prob fly his banner too -- but never got the chance. Not to mention there are guys out there that you never heard of (and never will) that are serious builders as well.

Good thread Mike.

[all-mota]

mine was brokin in and tuned on the dyno with out ever being driven on the street. it's runs great doesn't burn oil or smoke and makes power.

[Vteckidd]

Larry W. doesnt hold a candle to Don. Theres alot of back stories involving Don an Larry that you should PM me about.

Larry is a good head porter, and a GREAT marketing guy. But his Products he really exagerates way over the top. 350CFM B Series head? come on. 400whp NA H22 when even BAR HONDA couldnt get 383whp out of theirs, and they had UNLIMITED BUDGET and larry supposedly did it with off the shelf parts. Come on.

His whole theory on TIming and power make NO sense. About how the motor can use LESS fuel and make MORE POWER is the complete backwards wrong way of thinking .

Hes been called out NUMEROUS times, and the only thing hes ever done thats worked has been what Greg Samaroo has done. I cant tell you how many people i have met with ENDYN motors that were complete garbage and never made the power larry claimed.

Jeff at Import Builders is top notch
Bubba Built is good
Jim Justice is the #1 guy IMO, prob the best machinist in the country too.
ERL
Golden Eagle

You also have to remember Don is older, hes in his upper 50s IIRC. Hes been building motors for 30 years, and hes a former race car driver.

Fact is, you learn more from Don in 1 day that most people know their entire lives. The man has lived it, and done it. Hes not great with the internet, he doesnt do any advertising, etc. Hes not about being big or famous. He sits in his little 1 bay shop and does his business.

Don is DEFINETLY in my top 5, once you get to know him, the stuff you learn is invaluable

[chunky]

I don't need to read anything. From the hundreds of engines that I've built over the years, I have gathered my own facts.

A compression test before & after a new motor is run at load might convince you otherwise. You need the pressure of the combustion/vacuum to push the rings into the cylinder wall with sufficient pressure for them to seat. The only exception would be rings that have virtually no tension when using pistons with lateral gas ports. In that case, it's the gas ports that ensure the ring is sealing moreso than the ring and hone wearing into each other.

Rings do need some time to seat, but it's not 100's of miles with the rings & cylinder finishes in use today. If you have a rough hone, it'll take longer than with a fine hone.

[gen2freak]

interesting!

[SPOOLIN]

justice race engines is up there too. He does the engines for brian ballards 8 second street class cobalt.

[Tree]

why should it be broken in on the dyno? i mean the dyno and street driving and close so the same right?

[scttydb411]

why should it be broken in on the dyno? i mean the dyno and street driving and close so the same right?

it's more of a question of ripping on it right away.

unless it's bone stock w/ a stock ecu then tuning it is the better way to go like has been stated before...even on a base mapped ecu. why spend all the $ building something to potentially run the risk of being too rich/lean or incorrect timing driving it easy for 500/1000/1500 miles. it's just asking for trouble. who hasn't heard of someone popping their motor before they had a chance to tune it?

[SPOOLIN]

i just got done building an engine for a guy that bought it from someone who popped it before getting it tuned.

[scttydb411]

i just got done building an engine for a guy that bought it from someone who popped it before getting it tuned.

i can't count the # of times i hear that or have had to cancel a tuning appointment b/c the customer pops the engine during break-in before i can tune it.

[BTEC]

Btec's break in period is when i start it and make sure the cooling system works fine and i dnt have any leaks. After that, its a race car. Meaning if i had to re-ring the engine and put a piston or 4 (the exact same specs as the ones that came out), the a/f and timing shouldnt have changed so it should be very close to where it was so im balls to the wall in that beech. :burnout:

[DirtyMechanic]

I respect your opinion, but i know a thing or 2 myself.

I dont see how you can say the rings seat before the motor is ever fired.

Do you not agree with Hones then? I mean the purpose of the hone is to wear the ring evenly into the bore.

Vacuum is what cause the rings to "push out" but if the bore is too big, they have nothing to push out against on.

Follow me?

Id love to hear your theories :thumbup:im sorry i just have to correct you on this. it is cylinder pressure i.e. open throttle that pushes the rings against the cylinder walls. vacuum is used to help remove the ring and cylinder walls particals. hence the part/larger throttle 3rd 4th-5th gears pulls and the slow decel in gear.:goodjob: