PDA

View Full Version : Since Mike couldn't answer (RedGT, willum14pb, JConner, someone???)



tony
10-05-2008, 05:21 PM
This spurned from the $250k thread, so we're talking about TAXES. My response was to Mike as it pertained to a progressive tax and REAL WAGES and how the poor pay proportionately more when there is a flat tax. Since Mike didnt seem to want to respond (many responses to other crap afterward, I'll have to assume he doesn't have one) I would like to be enlightened, here is the post:


Okay, you should like my side of this argument then.

You make $20k a year that would be.. $1600 a month for you? Just an example, you don't have to confirm.

I'm at about $5400 a month.

Okay, real wages. If we have the same tax rate at 10% I'm paying $540 while you are paying $160. Seems unfair to me right? But with real wages we're paying the same amount for necessities, food, shelter, etc.. and that is where the discrepancy starts.

When you go to the grocery store, a $200 grocery bill affects you a LOT more than it effects me. $200 is 12% of your salary while it is 3.8% of mine. These are things that are necessary to your life that we all pay the same amount for.

Mike, you pay proportionately more than I do for a gallon of Milk, even though the price tag doesn't change. That is why I do not mind paying the higher tax rate to offset this discrepancy. When everything is figured up my higher taxes alleviates the financial burden that you already have at a lower income, but we are both still driving this economy.

If you raise taxes on the lower income you create an even greater imbalance in the Economy which drives a wedge between those who have, and those who do not. And trust me Mike, this economy not only thrives off of the rich but also those every day low income earners.

StupidBikerBoy
10-05-2008, 05:28 PM
This is how it should be! Even the fair tax would be much better than what we have now.:goodjob:

tony
10-05-2008, 05:36 PM
To piggy back on this, the War in Iraq, the Wall Street Bailout.. all of this requires some kind of taxation.. SOMEONE is going to be taxed, if it isn't those who can afford a slight tax hike (myself included) then obviously someone is going to get it right? (the rest is another repost that didnt get responses)

And for those that say the top 5% pay like 90% of the taxes:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in11si.xls

You will notice that the $50k to $500k income bracket account for 57.8% of all revenue before tax credits.

$50k is average Joe salary especially with two incomes, even $400k isn't far fetched so this whole.. "the wealthy needs tax cuts because they pay a proportionate number of taxes" is BS.

Want to know the income bracket with the biggest tax burden?

$100k to $200k - And I KNOW from what Paul has posted between him and his wife they fall into that range if they file jointly.

The #2 tax bracket is $50k to $75k.


For someone to say that the wealthy pay most of the taxes is a great misnomer. Unless you include $50k a year as wealthy.

BanginJimmy
10-05-2008, 05:37 PM
Tony, we agree on a flat tax. The burden would be mainly on the lower classes. The progressive tax is different, but that doesnt make it better. A progressive tax actually punishes you for acheivement.

I have a great example to go with it too. When I was at my old job and worked overtime, I made only $85 more if I worked an 8 hour day on sunday than I did if I just skipped it. That sunday would push me into a higher tax bracket, therefore, much higher taxes and more of my hard earned money goes to someone else.

tony
10-06-2008, 10:23 AM
Tony, we agree on a flat tax. The burden would be mainly on the lower classes. The progressive tax is different, but that doesnt make it better. A progressive tax actually punishes you for acheivement.

I have a great example to go with it too. When I was at my old job and worked overtime, I made only $85 more if I worked an 8 hour day on sunday than I did if I just skipped it. That sunday would push me into a higher tax bracket, therefore, much higher taxes and more of my hard earned money goes to someone else.

So who should take the tax burden? Thats all I want to know. Your example is very true, my coworkers refuse to work 24 hours of overtime or more because it becomes redundant.

Vteckidd
10-06-2008, 10:38 AM
Tony sorry man i have been busy and my answer will be short.

1) since when did we come a country where everything has to cost the same proprtionally? Thats Communism/Socialism

2) By your logic then a Ferrarri costs more proportionally too. So lets make the Middle Class more money so they can afford that $150,000 car.

Its ludicrous what you posted and i dont really think its a debatable subject unless you are arguing for communism where everything costs the same to everyone.

Sorry, im for capitalism and free market, i think a $4 gallon of milk SHOULD COST more to a person making $20,000 a year than a person making $1,000,000 a year. Thats the whole friggin point!

Since when did we stop working hard to get ahead? When did we become this greedy "govt better give me my money so i can survive"

How about working for a living? How about seperating yourself from the rest? Dont tell me you CANT, anyone can go to college and do anything they want, but youll have to WORK AT IT.

Vteckidd
10-06-2008, 10:44 AM
Furthermore,
Just sit back an watch. If you tax the rich, they will cut jobs, then your "tax cut" will mean NOTHING.

You guys still dont answer the whole "Barrack will let the BUSH TAX CUTS EXPIRE". Funny how you guys keep skipping over all that and dont address it.

Im just not for govt handouts, maybe other people are. But im telling you, history will repeat itself, if Obama does what he says he will do, we will have double digit unemployment , double digit inflation, and this crisis we are in now, will look like a walk in the park.

YOU CANNOT CUT TAXES AN RAISE SPENDING. how fu.cking hard is that to understand? You guys ***** about the national debt but give him a free pass when he says hes going to increase spending by 1 trillion dollars IN ADDITION TO CUTTING TAXES!

So there is a fundamental difference. you think the "evil millionaires" who create jobs arent going to CUT jobs if they are taxed at a rate of 30-62% higher. Lets play a game, what if they DO CUT JOBS.

Then what? what is your solution. humor me. What good is a tax cut if you dont have a job?

v-empire
10-06-2008, 10:46 AM
damn!

you guys are hard core bout this ****!!

haha

SERIOUS!

well , the differences in ideology and views make america, america. its good to have a healthy differences, because in differences, and debates, makes us know our country better and makes it stronger and a more democratic system( even tho many argue there should be more predominant groups/views).

there is no other country that has this kind of sway so we are at least ahead of the game.. hah!

Vteckidd
10-06-2008, 10:55 AM
Mike, you pay proportionately more than I do for a gallon of Milk, even though the price tag doesn't change. That is why I do not mind paying the higher tax rate to offset this discrepancy. When everything is figured up my higher taxes alleviates the financial burden that you already have at a lower income, but we are both still driving this economy

Last post,
How many times do i have to post this? the TOP 50% PAYS 95% OF ALL THE INCOME TAXES.

THE RICH ALREADY PAY MORE TAXES THAN THE "POOR" so what is this phrase i keep seeing you guys post. You act like the middle class is going under and paying all the taxes while the rich are jet setting around the country having a party.

Financial Burden? are you fu.cking kidding me? TAXES ARE NOT HIGH RIGHT NOW! THEY ARE ACTUALLY PRETTY LOW HISTORICALLY. So you have this notion that the poor middle class is financially burden with its REQUIREMENT TO PAY INCOME TAXES? I guess thats not "patriotic" for you enough.

You know what its not even worth it. Elect the Obama and we will sit around a campfire singing coom-by-yah and everyone will drive Ferrarris, have a 10,000 sq foot house, a jet, and a pool.

After all we DESERVE it. You guys (the govt) OWE IT TO ME CAUSE I WORK, AND ITS HARD OUT THERE! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

tony
10-06-2008, 11:09 AM
Its ludicrous what you posted and i dont really think its a debatable subject unless you are arguing for communism where everything costs the same to everyone.

Sorry, im for capitalism and free market, i think a $4 gallon of milk SHOULD COST more to a person making $20,000 a year than a person making $1,000,000 a year. Thats the whole friggin point!



So the person making $20k a year should pay more taxes AND eat higher costs due to their salary?

Of course Bush's cuts should expire, what have they done to stimulate the economy so far? Absolutely nothing, and we're still in $10 Trillion worth of debt. To offset this taxes have to be raised somewhere.. so again another example Mike.

If you have plans to assimilate into a wealthy lifestyle but your tax bracket is heavily taxed at $20k a year but the wealthy are seeing tax cuts, how do you plan on not only becoming rich but making ends meet at your current salary?

Alan®
10-06-2008, 11:26 AM
So the person making $20k a year should pay more taxes AND eat higher costs due to their salary?

Of course Bush's cuts should expire, what have they done to stimulate the economy so far? Absolutely nothing, and we're still in $10 Trillion worth of debt. To offset this taxes have to be raised somewhere.. so again another example Mike.

If you have plans to assimilate into a wealthy lifestyle but your tax bracket is heavily taxed at $20k a year but the wealthy are seeing tax cuts, how do you plan on not only becoming rich but making ends meet at your current salary?
Tony it would be one thing if he were raising taxes to pay for all this debt we have accumulated but how in the hell do you do that when you're going to add $1 trillion dollars in additional spending. Something else that no one seems to keep in mind. If Obama gets his programs in place and funded It's going to cost us a hell of a lot more than $1 trillion dollars to maintain these programs over any period of time. As far as I can tell $1 trillion dollars is just the start up cost.

tony
10-06-2008, 11:34 AM
Tony it would be one thing if he were raising taxes to pay for all this debt we have accumulated but how in the hell do you do that when you're going to add $1 trillion dollars in additional spending. Something else that no one seems to keep in mind. If Obama gets his programs in place and funded It's going to cost us a hell of a lot more than $1 trillion dollars to maintain these programs over any period of time. As far as I can tell $1 trillion dollars is just the start up cost.


Okay, funny how that spending number continually rises.. up from $800 Billion, wonder where you guys get this from?


The statement:At a campaign stop Monday in Columbus, Ohio, Sen. John McCain said Sen. Barack Obama "has proposed more than $860 billion in new spending."

Get the facts!



The Facts:
The McCain campaign is basing this figure on its own tally of how much money all of the new programs Obama has vowed to fund would ultimately cost. The total does not look at how much money Obama would save through cutbacks in other parts of his spending plan. It's important to note that McCain did not say "additional" spending.

Brian Rogers of the McCain campaign sent CNN the campaign's tally of "new spending" by Obama. It lists more than 40 plans or programs that Obama has discussed creating or funding at a higher level, along with figures for how much each would cost. Some of those figures come from what Obama or his campaign has said; others come from estimates by the Congressional Budget Office or other agencies. The list says if Obama could enact all his proposals, "taxpayers would be faced with financing $898.472 billion in new spending over one White House term."

Jason Furman, the Obama campaign's economic adviser, called McCain's assertion "totally ludicrous." He said the McCain campaign is "exaggerating our spending increases" while ignoring spending cuts. The Obama campaign does not have its own figure for how much "new spending" Obama is proposing, Furman said, because it "doesn't conceptually make sense." If someone is spending $10 a week on apples, then switches to spending $10 a week on oranges, "it wouldn't make sense to say how much extra you are spending on oranges — you're just changing what you're spending on," he said.

The most detailed analysis of McCain's and Obama's budget plans comes from the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. The group's president, Maya MacGuineas (pronounced "McGuiness"), called McCain's statement "a misleading figure taken out of context."

The committee has looked at how much spending Obama and McCain are proposing and how much they say they'll save. The candidates have been more specific about spending than saving, but the committee gave them leeway, assuming that the savings they promise could actually happen, MacGuineas said. The committee's figures include the candidates' tax plans as well, because both include spending changes as part of their tax plans, she said.

The committee found that both candidates' fiscal policies call for spending a lot more than they bring in. By 2013, Obama's policies would add $286 billion to that year's deficit, while McCain's policies would add $211 billion, MacGuineas said.

The committee has not totaled only "new spending" for either Obama or McCain.

Verdict: Misleading. The figure McCain gave is based on his campaign's tally of the costs of numerous programs Obama has discussed, but ignores the savings from other policy changes Obama is calling for.



In reality Obama's policy adds up to a $286 Billion deficit, McCain's would add up to $211 Billion. Get it straight

v-empire
10-06-2008, 11:41 AM
but Obama is black, you know?

Vteckidd
10-06-2008, 12:17 PM
So the person making $20k a year should pay more taxes
what are you talking about? The person making 20,000 a year doesn't pay higher taxes LOL againg if you don't get it I can't help you. The rich pay the majority of taxes your redistribution of wealth is the shortest way to communism

blaknoize
10-06-2008, 12:25 PM
How come everybody loves the commercials? Even though my info is not sourced or backed. The information given from IA alone will be sufficient. If we CUT taxes regardless to the rich or poor our debt will increase. McCain may "cut" our taxes and everyone elses but we will continue a war, which from what ALL of us have seen costs 3 billion a month. So... hmm... lower taxes continue to spend. Raise/lower taxes and stop spending, just taxing and providing our country with what it needs. MONEY from its citizens.

Regardless we're gonna have to pay for this, but I'd much rather pay for my own than to continue a useless lied about war over oil in a country whom initially wasnt the target. Its bullsh!t and all of u know this. So stop cryin about the tax bracket. We're all in this together progressive/regressive/median/mean/wtf ever. I'm willing to pay to be rewarded. Its an investment in our country not in McCain's superfriends war.

So go ahead and chop up my words and pick apart my message. This is bullsh1t nit-picking about "tax." We shouldnt even BE taxed, but since we must, lets pay tha sh!t and let it go. Eventually, we will carry our own weight, if the US stays tha fuk outta everyones business and stops SPENDING so damn much.

I make 24K and can hardly get by. But I can manage it. When all these rich folks can roll around and just buy sh!t, gas and so on and spend 200-500 a day. (One of my friends does this, rockin her Land Rover $120 dollars a day in fuel, and eating where-ever she pleases, while I'm at home... eatin my hotdogs, wonderin how I can afford a motor to install in my broke car. Behind on my rent and its my second fukin month.) But I kno that we gotz to work together to make this well. So my missing $341 or so dollars on my paycheck can only help us as a whole, not hurt.

tony
10-06-2008, 12:25 PM
what are you talking about? The person making 20,000 a year doesn't pay higher taxes LOL againg if you don't get it I can't help you. The rich pay the majority of taxes your redistribution of wealth is the shortest way to communism

Then who will pay the taxes Mike? The system as it is, is inadequate.. the deficit is increasing so someone must see their tax bill increase. You say the rich should see tax CUTS so that leaves the lower income wage earners to foot the bill for Iraq, this $860 Billion bailout and all the other government spending that Bush has enabled for the past 8 years.

And again, if the rich pay the majority then a lot of people (including me) must be rich because as I posted, the majority of taxes are paid between the $50k and $200k income bracket. (according to the IRS, not Boortz, Hannity or Limbaugh)

BanginJimmy
10-06-2008, 01:49 PM
So who should take the tax burden? Thats all I want to know. Your example is very true, my coworkers refuse to work 24 hours of overtime or more because it becomes redundant.


As you can tell from my sig, I like the Fairtax. I know it isnt perfect in all aspects, but I have yet to find a single portion of it that isnt superior to the current system. When you tax consumption instead of wages you tap into a market that is not currently tapped into, such as the people who receive the bulk of their income from illegal or untaxed sources.
Removing taxes from businesses will allow them greater freedom to expand their business and create new jobs. It will also go a long way to (a) making American goods competitive on the international markets, and (b) bring more companies to the US as a tax shelter and easier way to tap into the worlds largest economy. Again creating more new higher paying jobs.

eraser4g63
10-06-2008, 05:41 PM
Or how about the fact the the supreme court found Income tax unconstitutional but approved it temporarily to help fund WW II and after that is was supposed to be done away with........

BanginJimmy
10-06-2008, 10:28 PM
Or how about the fact the the supreme court found Income tax unconstitutional but approved it temporarily to help fund WW II and after that is was supposed to be done away with........

The 16th Amendment made it legal for the congress to levy taxes on income.

.::UNKNOWN::.
10-06-2008, 11:16 PM
all i know is that my job which i work for a small business owner which files an income tax greater than 250,000 and this came from his mouth, he is worried he cant stay afloat with the purposed tax increases that obama wants.... which he laughed when he heard that obama was cutting capital gains taxes on small business owners.... what is the problem with that..... they don't pay capital gains taxes wtf?!?!? all i know i am voting for mccain bc i am afraid for the small business i work for... they have been real good to me i want them to stay in business and dont want to see 30 plus years of building a business go down the drain so some family can get welfare **** that...

stephen
10-06-2008, 11:59 PM
all i know is that my job which i work for a small business owner which files an income tax greater than 250,000 and this came from his mouth, he is worried he cant stay afloat with the purposed tax increases that obama wants.... which he laughed when he heard that obama was cutting capital gains taxes on small business owners.... what is the problem with that..... they don't pay capital gains taxes wtf?!?!? all i know i am voting for mccain bc i am afraid for the small business i work for... they have been real good to me i want them to stay in business and dont want to see 30 plus years of building a business go down the drain so some family can get welfare **** that...


i believe mr.kidd posted it up...but it's also been posted in a number of different articles....but the AVERAGE tax increase from the $227k-$603k range is an additional $12. not to mention, this increase only affects PERSONAL INCOME...not business income. if the company was being built for the past 30 plus years, then this increase won't be any higher than the level it was at when reagan was in office (28 years ago). not to mention, reagan CUT TAXES (like mccain is proposing), and ended up having to raise them 6 TIMES to keep us from tanking. also if your heard obama was cutting capital gains tax...then he heard wrong...he's increasing it. based on all of that...then your boss doesn't seem to have too much to worry about...

to stay on topic, the tax issue isn't as black & white as some make it seem. what some people fail to realize is this country (like many others), was built on the backs of people who weren't given fair opportunities (due to sex, race, religion, etc.). here's someone who is promising (for ATLEAST the next 4yrs) to assist WORKING INDIVIDUALS, who struggle to afford the necessities in life, by skimming off of the backs of those who can afford them 10 times over. what's good for the goose is good for the gander...right?

.::UNKNOWN::.
10-07-2008, 12:23 AM
also if your heard obama was cutting capital gains tax...then he heard wrong...he's increasing it. based on all of that...then your boss doesn't seem to have too much to worry about...
i told him that and obama said he would lower the capital gains taxes on small business owners..... i know as well as alot of educated people that small business owners doesn't pay capital gains taxes and if you still want to argue that obama didn't say this....

quoted from= http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

Support Small Business


Provide Tax Relief for Small Businesses and Start Up Companies: Barack Obama and Joe Biden will eliminate all capital gains taxes on start-up and small businesses to encourage innovation and job creation. Obama and Biden will also support small business owners by providing a $500 “Making Work Pay” tax credit to almost every worker in America. Self-employed small business owners pay both the employee and the employer side of the payroll tax, and this measure will reduce the burdens of this double taxation.
go read it yourself if you dont believe me


so taking your arguement and mine and puting them together he wants to raise the capital gains taxes on people like me, teachers and everyday normal people that have iras 401ks and 403bs and so on and so on.... so when we do retire and pull all that money out he wants to take money from the middle class worker to give back to the middle class worker so they can have a better life and pay the same amout for a gallon of milk so to speak.... makes perfect sence i can see it wow i just changed my vote i am goin to vote for the guy that is goin to secretly take from the middle class joe blow that doesn't have a job with a pension so another joe blow that also doesn't have a pension plan in a job other than a 401k...... yeah he really cares for that middle class if he wants to increase the capital gains taxes:goodjob:

Vteckidd
10-07-2008, 12:28 AM
to sit here an try to argue that small business revenue doesnt translate to PERSONAL INCOME is about as smart as arguing with a wall.

ceases to amaze me how you can seperate the two.

Jack Kemp had a great quote today
"This is not about making the RICH POORER, which is a class warfare tactic, this should be about making the poor richer. Unfortunetly we are in this "entitlement" society that thinks everything is owed to them and they shouldnt have to work for it."

.::UNKNOWN::.
10-07-2008, 12:40 AM
to sit here an try to argue that small business revenue doesnt translate to PERSONAL INCOME is about as smart as arguing with a wall.

ceases to amaze me how you can seperate the two.

Jack Kemp had a great quote today
"This is not about making the RICH POORER, which is a class warfare tactic, this should be about making the poor richer. Unfortunetly we are in this "entitlement" society that thinks everything is owed to them and they shouldnt have to work for it." agreed the last time i checked the owner of my company his income is all money taken in from the buisness and then he takes payroll, offices supplies, chemical, insurance on the cars, insurance on each tech, the building mortgage, the light bill, the water bill, payroll taxes, and so on and so on.then he has his take home

stephen
10-07-2008, 05:43 AM
i told him that and obama said he would lower the capital gains taxes on small business owners..... i know as well as alot of educated people that small business owners doesn't pay capital gains taxes and if you still want to argue that obama didn't say this....

quoted from= http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/
go read it yourself if you dont believe me


so taking your arguement and mine and puting them together he wants to raise the capital gains taxes on people like me, teachers and everyday normal people that have iras 401ks and 403bs and so on and so on.... so when we do retire and pull all that money out he wants to take money from the middle class worker to give back to the middle class worker so they can have a better life and pay the same amout for a gallon of milk so to speak.... makes perfect sence i can see it wow i just changed my vote i am goin to vote for the guy that is goin to secretly take from the middle class joe blow that doesn't have a job with a pension so another joe blow that also doesn't have a pension plan in a job other than a 401k...... yeah he really cares for that middle class if he wants to increase the capital gains taxes:goodjob:

ok, so i researched the capital gains tax issue a little harder. he does want to eliminate capital gains taxes on small businesses. small businesses CAN receive capital gains from selling shares...which may not apply to your job...which may void the arguement as it pertains to YOUR job.

as far as him increasing capital gains tax, he only wants to increase it on those who make OVER $250k a year. unless your 401k, 403b, etc. will increase your earnings to $250k...then you don't have a problem. also, he's increasing it by 5% (from 15%-20%)....on a $250k scale, that's going from $212,500.00 to $200,000....OH MY! I HOPE THE MILK AND FERRARI'S GO ON SALE! not to mention, have you looked into what the AVERAGE JOE BLOW'S income is once they reitre??? ever seen that 65+ year old man/woman working at your local burger king because their retirement plan isn't enough to afford to keep food in their mouth? once again...IT WILL NOT IMPACT THE MIDDLE-LOW CLASS INDIVIDUAL. do you currently have a 401k? how much money DID YOU LOSE (yes, if you have one you lost money) last week? and under which administration was this under...??? who supported this administration 3/4 of the time? will you be retiring within the next 4-8yrs? look at the whole picture...lol, not what YOUR BOSS wants you to hear. i can assure you, you're the least of his best interest.


to sit here an try to argue that small business revenue doesnt translate to PERSONAL INCOME is about as smart as arguing with a wall.

ceases to amaze me how you can seperate the two.

i had to think about this for a second (i actually deleted my first response). you're right, business revenue DOES translate to personal income. the thing that you're not getting is BUSINESS INCOME TAX has nothing to do with your PERSONAL INCOME TAX when applied to obama's plan. if you own a sole proprietorship, then you can relate the two (under sole proprietorship, they're one in the same). if your business has a tax id number, or is incorporated, then you file them separately. the only taxes that obama will increase are your PERSONAL INCOME TAXES if they're over $250k. all of the things 93lude mentioned are things that you can receive tax breaks on (most of them 100% even if you purchased them on credit) when applied to your business. with most small business owners, the idea is to make you personal income as low as possible...regardless of WHO is president. why do you think that is???


Jack Kemp had a great quote today
"This is not about making the RICH POORER, which is a class warfare tactic, this should be about making the poor richer. Unfortunetly we are in this "entitlement" society that thinks everything is owed to them and they shouldnt have to work for it."

lol, jack kemp!?! are you serious? the father of "reaganomics?" yeah ok :goodjob:

MachNU
10-07-2008, 06:03 AM
The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Aye from GA.


"We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great- grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other bed-wetters. We hold these Truths to be Self Evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights, and are so dim they require a Bill of NON-Rights."

ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE VIII: You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

Just figured i would throw these in there, since it went along with what a few of you are arguing. No matter how you look at thing and argue them, everyone is wrong. Its a double edged knife, no matter how you look at it someone is ****ed. And sinse the common example is rasie taxes how it would affect someone, use this one!

Ex: Taxes get cut, and the govt has to make it back somehow (regardless of what you think, they will make it back). SO two things happen!

1. 50% of the people take that extra money and store it away, not spending it and putting it back into the economy!

2. THe other 50% go "**** yeah" and spend all that extra money! Yay back into the economy!

Now to get that 50% back, prices of things get raised, by 10%, making 60% of the money back, but that makes the cost of the item higher, and meaning less people can buy them leaving a less % will be able to spend that money. THerefore the money is still lost, so govt starts taxing business, or at least goods/service, well the people who have to pay that tax, will raise there prices on items, trying to get there money back. Now with prices going up, and less people being able to afford these items, or the quanity they buy going down, thats less money back getting back. Meaning the business not being able to sale, and getting sucked dry through a slightly higher tax, meaning, it going under and people getting let off. Now you have people unemployed, half getting unemployment, and the other half going to look for another job, with few being there!

How ever you look at it, its ****ed from the get go! People will argue it every which way but its a flaw system! Its one of those things that back ever be 100% you just have to hope for at least 75%!

I now its kinda a long statement, and might be kinda flaw in thought, but just my :2cents:

Alan®
10-07-2008, 07:27 AM
Do you know what an LLC is? Do you know what an S-Corp is? Do you know how they are taxed? They are considered pass throughs. In other words any profit that the companies make is claimed as personal in come. Now why in the hell would anyone do that? Because for the most part it's cheaper to do so.

Taxes on small businesses would only go up $12? :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: Wow ok. How about the raise on the payroll tax? How about eliminating the $90k Social Security cap? How about any of the other things that Obama has proposed that go directly on the backs of small business owners. If you honestly believe it will only go up $12, go start a small business and see how much in taxes you will pay under obama once you cross his threshold.

He heard wrong on the capital gains tax? Did you see any of the forums where he repeatedly said he would cut or eliminate Capital gains tax for small businesses? The guy doesn't have the slightest clue because he has never run a business.

What Obama is proposing is not skimming. It's taking a big fuccing chunk and then calling anyone who makes any kind of decent living evil.


this country (like many others), was built on the backs of people who weren't given fair opportunities (due to sex, race, religion, etc.).

And what people like you seem to FORGET is that this country was founded ON A TAX REVOLT! The Brittish taxed what were essentially the modern equvalency of small business owners to hell and back and what happened. They passed the tax on to the customers.

tony
10-07-2008, 07:53 AM
Do you know what an LLC is? Do you know what an S-Corp is? Do you know how they are taxed? They are considered pass throughs. In other words any profit that the companies make is claimed as personal in come. Now why in the hell would anyone do that? Because for the most part it's cheaper to do so.



I've had an LLC, income CAN be claimed as personal income but you have a choice, it does not have to be claimed as personal. An LLC is basically a combination of an S-Corp and a General Corporation where you have the choice to act as either one.

All this posting and nobody has answered the question, WHO IS GOING TO FOOT THE BILL FOR THIS BAILOUT AND THE WAR? Simple question, it requires a simple answer.. someone will have to get their tax bill raised. Who will it be?

BanginJimmy
10-07-2008, 08:44 AM
All this posting and nobody has answered the question, WHO IS GOING TO FOOT THE BILL FOR THIS BAILOUT AND THE WAR? Simple question, it requires a simple answer.. someone will have to get their tax bill raised. Who will it be?


Actually no one needs to have taxes raised to foot the bill. We just need to do a few simple things.

1. We need an economic conservative in office and economic conservatives in congress. Not going to happen. Congress is not conservative and we get an economic liberal in office no matter who wins the election.

2. Cut wasteful spending. $33B a year in medicare/medicaid fraud and they dont investigate 95% of fraud claims because they dont have enough investigators. More than 70B a year in contract fraud and excessivly high no bid contracts through the DoD.

3. CUT SPENDING. The US Govt hands out hundreds of billions of dollars every year to people that dont like us. These countries include: Iran in the form of oil profits, N. Korea in the form of crude and refined oil for more many purposes, China in the form of the trade deficit. We need to keep that money here in the US and in our economy.

4. Welfare needs to be completely discarded and re-written. Random drug tests to get your check. No more money for more kids. Time limits and additional money to pay for college. Those things alone would cut the costs of welfare in half within 1 presidential term. Get these leeches working and actually providing for themselves.

tony
10-07-2008, 08:54 AM
Actually no one needs to have taxes raised to foot the bill. We just need to do a few simple things.

1. We need an economic conservative in office and economic conservatives in congress. Not going to happen. Congress is not conservative and we get an economic liberal in office no matter who wins the election.

2. Cut wasteful spending. $33B a year in medicare/medicaid fraud and they dont investigate 95% of fraud claims because they dont have enough investigators. More than 70B a year in contract fraud and excessivly high no bid contracts through the DoD.

3. CUT SPENDING. The US Govt hands out hundreds of billions of dollars every year to people that dont like us. These countries include: Iran in the form of oil profits, N. Korea in the form of crude and refined oil for more many purposes, China in the form of the trade deficit. We need to keep that money here in the US and in our economy.

4. Welfare needs to be completely discarded and re-written. Random drug tests to get your check. No more money for more kids. Time limits and additional money to pay for college. Those things alone would cut the costs of welfare in half within 1 presidential term. Get these leeches working and actually providing for themselves.

Okay, let me rephrase this question. Who REALISTICALLY is going to foot this bill, not a wishlist of policies that you think should be done to get things resolved. There is a lot I WISH the government would do but I know its not going to get passed. The government doesn't cut spending, that is not the nature of the business.

Again, someones taxes is getting raised, who will it be?

Vteckidd
10-07-2008, 09:19 AM
lol, jack kemp!?! are you serious? the father of "reaganomics?" yeah ok :goodjob:
you mean prob one of the best and brightest business men of our time?

what you still dont get is that if my BUSINESS makes $400,000 and i paid me $250,000, then guess what, ill let you connect the dots

josh green
10-07-2008, 09:26 AM
I make 24K and can hardly get by. But I can manage it. When all these rich folks can roll around and just buy sh!t, gas and so on and spend 200-500 a day. (One of my friends does this, rockin her Land Rover $120 dollars a day in fuel, and eating where-ever she pleases, while I'm at home... eatin my hotdogs, wonderin how I can afford a motor to install in my broke car. Behind on my rent and its my second fukin month.) But I kno that we gotz to work together to make this well. So my missing $341 or so dollars on my paycheck can only help us as a whole, not hurt.
Sounds like envy my friend, that lifestyle isnt "owed" to anyone, SOMEONE had to work for it. She may not be as well off as you think, it could all just be debt, and a front same goes for if her parents are paying for the stuff. You should have budgeted for the income that you bring home. Sounds to me that you are so tight in bills that you have no "fluff" for when you do NEED to buy car parts, or shoes, food, etc... You are essentially "overextended" like the people whom are being forclosed on. If you want that extra $341, then the fairtax is what you want!

I dont think anyone can answer the tax question that Tony has proposed, everyone is going to pay 1 way or another. I personaly dont mind paying proportionaly more for milk b/c of my income. Thats the whole point of making more money is to have more disposible income. If you make $20k a year and cannot make ends meet, you will have to do what it takes to afford to live within your income. TV isnt a necessity, internet, etc... No one wants to give up these things but to live w/out government aid, its what you may have to do. But when they will make up your shortcomings you can pay for tv while they continue to pay for your necessities.
There are also "weather" people who also work the system. My older brother went through a private school until he graduated and I remember my mom telling me about some of the moms not working b/c it allowed their debt to income ratio to remain high enough for them to attain financial aid. Thats pretty ****ty, especially when they are driving around in their suv's and "affording" nice things. Times like these you will see who was really well off and who was just fronting and racking up debt.
I agree with the fair tax completely. Like stated, it does have some flukes but its the best I have seen.

Vteckidd
10-07-2008, 09:27 AM
All this posting and nobody has answered the question, WHO IS GOING TO FOOT THE BILL FOR THIS BAILOUT AND THE WAR? Simple question, it requires a simple answer.. someone will have to get their tax bill raised. Who will it be?

who you ask, its everyone. The only person propsing an increase in taxes is OBAMA.

Even now your boy is saying "we may have to curb some of my ideas" because the money JUST WONT BE THERE.

Hes propsing 1 TRILLION dollars in new spending and CUTTING taxes. The war saves him $300 billion a year, where is the other 700 coming from?

I cant believe you EDUCATED people cannot do the math and would rather just listen to the liberal talking points and the internet facts. oh well your loss.

This country was founded on entrepreneurship and hard work. Not this sense of entitlement.

The guy saying he only makes $20,000 a year and its hard, yeah, no SH!T i did it for 5 years. No what, i worked hard, i learned the ropes, and i took what i learned and went into business for myself.

EVERYONE has an opportunity, i REFUSE to believe that people are STUCK in the middle class.

But this is a society that wants to blame everything on everyone else, and lives in the here an now.

Your answer tony is last time i checked everyone pays taxes, and more money comes from your RICH than the poor. So the answer is the majority of the money will be paid by the Rich, sense they pay the most.

Whose taxes are going to go up? Under Obama EVERYONES. you can think this illusion of hes going to champion the middle class, but hes going to raise capital gains, hes going to raise death tax, ss tax, etc. repeat of clinton.

Blitanicle99
10-07-2008, 09:33 AM
who you ask, its everyone. The only person propsing an increase in taxes is OBAMA.

Even now your boy is saying "we may have to curb some of my ideas" because the money JUST WONT BE THERE.

Hes propsing 1 TRILLION dollars in new spending and CUTTING taxes. The war saves him $300 billion a year, where is the other 700 coming from?

I cant believe you EDUCATED people cannot do the math and would rather just listen to the liberal talking points and the internet facts. oh well your loss.

This country was founded on entrepreneurship and hard work. Not this sense of entitlement.

The guy saying he only makes $20,000 a year and its hard, yeah, no SH!T i did it for 5 years. No what, i worked hard, i learned the ropes, and i took what i learned and went into business for myself.

EVERYONE has an opportunity, i REFUSE to believe that people are STUCK in the middle class.

But this is a society that wants to blame everything on everyone else, and lives in the here an now.

Your answer tony is last time i checked everyone pays taxes, and more money comes from your RICH than the poor. So the answer is the majority of the money will be paid by the Rich, sense they pay the most.

Whose taxes are going to go up? Under Obama EVERYONES. you can think this illusion of hes going to champion the middle class, but hes going to raise capital gains, hes going to raise death tax, ss tax, etc. repeat of clinton.

I always enjoy reading your posts concerning things like this. Thank you for standing up and typing this all out every time the kids have questions.

josh green
10-07-2008, 09:33 AM
transaxle :goodjob:

tony
10-07-2008, 09:40 AM
who you ask, its everyone. The only person propsing an increase in taxes is OBAMA.

Even now your boy is saying "we may have to curb some of my ideas" because the money JUST WONT BE THERE.

Hes propsing 1 TRILLION dollars in new spending and CUTTING taxes. The war saves him $300 billion a year, where is the other 700 coming from?

I cant believe you EDUCATED people cannot do the math and would rather just listen to the liberal talking points and the internet facts. oh well your loss.

This country was founded on entrepreneurship and hard work. Not this sense of entitlement.

The guy saying he only makes $20,000 a year and its hard, yeah, no SH!T i did it for 5 years. No what, i worked hard, i learned the ropes, and i took what i learned and went into business for myself.

EVERYONE has an opportunity, i REFUSE to believe that people are STUCK in the middle class.

But this is a society that wants to blame everything on everyone else, and lives in the here an now.

Your answer tony is last time i checked everyone pays taxes, and more money comes from your RICH than the poor. So the answer is the majority of the money will be paid by the Rich, sense they pay the most.

Whose taxes are going to go up? Under Obama EVERYONES. you can think this illusion of hes going to champion the middle class, but hes going to raise capital gains, hes going to raise death tax, ss tax, etc. repeat of clinton.

2 things in life are definite, death and taxes. Not everyone aspires to be rich or wealthy, obviously not everyone can be. Some kids aspire to be a Police Officer, Fire Fighter, Teacher.. some prefer a technical trade.. none of these professions bring a great deal of wealth, they are middle class professions.

As I stated before, $50k to $200k must be "RICH" because they carry the bulk of the tax bill. Remember though, a married couple filing jointly with two $25k a year incomes would not be considered "RICH" under that definition... so that whole idea that the elite of society carry the bulk of the tax burden is BS.

Again I quote Adam Smith, the man who grandfathered the theory of a free market:


"The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

You believe in a free market but not the principles of it.

Jaimecbr900
10-07-2008, 09:59 AM
As you can tell from my sig, I like the Fairtax. I know it isnt perfect in all aspects, but I have yet to find a single portion of it that isnt superior to the current system. When you tax consumption instead of wages you tap into a market that is not currently tapped into, such as the people who receive the bulk of their income from illegal or untaxed sources.
Removing taxes from businesses will allow them greater freedom to expand their business and create new jobs. It will also go a long way to (a) making American goods competitive on the international markets, and (b) bring more companies to the US as a tax shelter and easier way to tap into the worlds largest economy. Again creating more new higher paying jobs.

This is the only person that has a clue how a Fair tax/consumption tax works.

You no longer have ANY INCOME tax. You no longer have any payroll tax. No capital gains tax. No death tax. No double tax. No estate tax. NO TAX other than consumption.

So explain to me HOW the "poor", who BTW PAY LITTLE TO NO TAX NOW, are going to be any more "poor" if they are going to receive their entire paycheck (if they work at all) and then on TOP OF THAT will receive a monthly rebate check for necessities such as FOOD? So the gov't will PAY every month with REAL MONEY for you to FEED your family and YOU pay for what you use thereafter. You also have to consider the fact that all goods and services have an inbedded "tax" ALREADY on them, so therefore it's not going to automatically (as the Dems. want to portray it) raise sticker prices for everything 23%.

For example, an employer now has to pay someone $5/hr partly BECAUSE they have to pay payroll tax, FICA, unemployment, insurance, etc. So if you free up their additional tax burden, they will now be able to either A: Keep paying that position at $5 but be able to hire MORE employees; B: Be able to afford to RAISE that pay slightly and STILL make the same amount or more. Both win-win situations. Same thing will happen with the vast majority of goods and services since they too will no longer have the added taxes they pay now, which we all know are simply passed on to the consumer as part of the price of that good/service.

BTW, Obama wants to eliminate something that doesn't exist.....Capital gains on "small business". Small businesses pay INCOME TAXES, NOT Capital gains. So it's a total "now you see it, now you don't" scheme. It means absolutely nothing to small businesses. NOTHING. :rolleyes: Much like telling someone that DOES NOT PAY TAXES NOW that you are going to raise taxes.......hell, what do they care....they don't pay taxes NOW, WON'T pay taxes later, so what do they care.....right? Same thing as the proposal that we are suddenly going to tax the "rich" to ease the burden on the "poor"......the "poor" DON'T PAY squat NOW, so why would they care? It's not going to bring one single dime back into any tax pool because all the "rich" are going to do is pass that "new" cost onto somewhere else......guess where? :rolleyes:

tony
10-07-2008, 10:06 AM
This is the only person that has a clue how a Fair tax/consumption tax works.




Understand that my first post wasn't against the Fair Tax, I've never been against the Fair Tax on anything other than the fact it requires the people to hold the government accountable on the 23% sales tax.. (what prevents the government from raising that rate) That is asking a lot of a nation of people who are more concerned with who Britney Spears is dating than tax policy.

Jaimecbr900
10-07-2008, 11:04 AM
Understand that my first post wasn't against the Fair Tax, I've never been against the Fair Tax on anything other than the fact it requires the people to hold the government accountable on the 23% sales tax.. (what prevents the government from raising that rate) That is asking a lot of a nation of people who are more concerned with who Britney Spears is dating than tax policy.

Well, many people glob the Fair Tax with a Flat Tax due to both having the common denominator of a defined tax table and no income tax idea.

Since you guys were discussing "Taxes" I figured we could throw that in since that would resolve the "to cut or not to cut" problem.

If you instantly were able to inject a gazillion dollars that right NOW we don't even see (money from illegals, money shipped overseas, corporations coming back to be based here which in turn creates a ton of new jobs, even people like drug dealers having to pay into a system they NOW don't pay into, etc) then why would you need to cut or add anything? You should and very likely would be able to collect infinitely more money than you do now via the IRS.

So again, instead of arguing for or against "tax cuts".....why not do away with "taxes" all together and then it won't ever be an issue? Under the current income tax structure you will ALWAYS have someone pay more than someone else. But under the proposed Fair Tax, people pay WHEN and IF they buy something. So if you want a widget, then you buy that widget and pay your portion of the "taxes" then. If you want to save your money and invest it, then you don't buy the widget and invest the money YOU EARNED. It promotes saving and investing. It promotes equal share of the load. It injects an unimaginable amount of money that we can't even touch right now (illegals, drug dealers, people getting paid under the table, people that cheat on taxes, etc). So just that portion, the money we don't see now, amounts to Billions I'm willing to bet. So what would our economy look like if we poured Billions into it? To add to that, what about the tons of new jobs created when big corporations, many that are American but HQ elsewhere to get those same benefits the Fair Tax would give them, move back here and no longer have to "out source"? Think about it. ;)

Vteckidd
10-07-2008, 11:16 AM
i never said i wasnt for the Fair Tax plan, i just dont see it ever happening with the people we have in power right now.

Tracy
10-07-2008, 11:29 AM
After all we DESERVE it. You guys (the govt) OWE IT TO ME CAUSE I WORK, AND ITS HARD OUT THERE! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Unfortunetly we are in this "entitlement" society that thinks everything is owed to them and they shouldnt have to work for it."

These statements sounds eerily familiar coming from you....just in a different context. :taun:

Alan®
10-07-2008, 11:30 AM
This is the only person that has a clue how a Fair tax/consumption tax works.

You no longer have ANY INCOME tax. You no longer have any payroll tax. No capital gains tax. No death tax. No double tax. No estate tax. NO TAX other than consumption.

So explain to me HOW the "poor", who BTW PAY LITTLE TO NO TAX NOW, are going to be any more "poor" if they are going to receive their entire paycheck (if they work at all) and then on TOP OF THAT will receive a monthly rebate check for necessities such as FOOD? So the gov't will PAY every month with REAL MONEY for you to FEED your family and YOU pay for what you use thereafter. You also have to consider the fact that all goods and services have an inbedded "tax" ALREADY on them, so therefore it's not going to automatically (as the Dems. want to portray it) raise sticker prices for everything 23%.

For example, an employer now has to pay someone $5/hr partly BECAUSE they have to pay payroll tax, FICA, unemployment, insurance, etc. So if you free up their additional tax burden, they will now be able to either A: Keep paying that position at $5 but be able to hire MORE employees; B: Be able to afford to RAISE that pay slightly and STILL make the same amount or more. Both win-win situations. Same thing will happen with the vast majority of goods and services since they too will no longer have the added taxes they pay now, which we all know are simply passed on to the consumer as part of the price of that good/service.

BTW, Obama wants to eliminate something that doesn't exist.....Capital gains on "small business". Small businesses pay INCOME TAXES, NOT Capital gains. So it's a total "now you see it, now you don't" scheme. It means absolutely nothing to small businesses. NOTHING. :rolleyes: Much like telling someone that DOES NOT PAY TAXES NOW that you are going to raise taxes.......hell, what do they care....they don't pay taxes NOW, WON'T pay taxes later, so what do they care.....right? Same thing as the proposal that we are suddenly going to tax the "rich" to ease the burden on the "poor"......the "poor" DON'T PAY squat NOW, so why would they care? It's not going to bring one single dime back into any tax pool because all the "rich" are going to do is pass that "new" cost onto somewhere else......guess where? :rolleyes:

Jamie this point has been argued to hell and back.

tony
10-07-2008, 11:35 AM
Jamie this point has been argued to hell and back.

Have you seen the paycheck of someone who makes between $20k a year and $35k with no dependents? Just curious.. I could scan a few of mine so you can see how much of my salary went toward taxes.

tony
10-07-2008, 11:36 AM
i never said i wasnt for the Fair Tax plan, i just dont see it ever happening with the people we have in power right now.

Something we finally agree on

Alan®
10-07-2008, 11:36 AM
Have you seen the paycheck of someone who makes between $20k a year and $35k with no dependents? Just curious.. I could scan a few of mine so you can see how much of my salary went toward taxes.
:yes:

4dmin
10-07-2008, 11:53 AM
fair tax seems like a good plan but i looked into it a while ago and there were still loop holes and many economist say it wouldn't bring in funding we currently do w/ our tax system.

Vteckidd
10-07-2008, 12:05 PM
These statements sounds eerily familiar coming from you....just in a different context. :taun:
oh contrair

ive always worked hard. If you are promised something and deliver on your end, then yeah the other party should live up to that deal. If you can show you are warranted that "financial" progress, then yeah, you deserve it. Im talking about the people that dont do anything , dont work hard, and think everything is owed to them. I dont fit in that category.

Yeah at 26 years old and after 6 years of working for other people, and realizing that i was never going to be paid what i was WORTH, i took a different route. No reason to be bitter about that.

You seriously dont want to open that can of worms, please. its been quiet, i suggest you just ignore anything you see me post.

We dont have a relationship where you can even think about talking to me.

thanks

.::UNKNOWN::.
10-07-2008, 02:05 PM
Have you seen the paycheck of someone who makes between $20k a year and $35k with no dependents? Just curious.. I could scan a few of mine so you can see how much of my salary went toward taxes.
23% and april 15th comes along and i get alil more than a grand back :goodjob:

BanginJimmy
10-07-2008, 02:45 PM
fair tax seems like a good plan but i looked into it a while ago and there were still loop holes and many economist say it wouldn't bring in funding we currently do w/ our tax system.

As I said in my first post about the Fairtax, it isnt 100% perfect and foolproof, but I have spent MANY hours researching it and comparing it to the current tax system and I cant find a single portion of the current system that isnt vastly inferior to the fairtax.

BanginJimmy
10-07-2008, 02:50 PM
Okay, let me rephrase this question. Who REALISTICALLY is going to foot this bill, not a wishlist of policies that you think should be done to get things resolved. There is a lot I WISH the government would do but I know its not going to get passed. The government doesn't cut spending, that is not the nature of the business.

Again, someones taxes is getting raised, who will it be?

Realisticly NO ONE is going to foot the bill. We will continue to roll deeper into debt without a dramatic cut in spending. The source is highly biased, Neal Boortz, but he was on one of his fairtax rants and he mentioned that tax revenues would need to DOUBLE and it would still take 40 years to pay the national debt, and tax revenues would need to go up by 50% across the board just to have a neutral budget at current spending.

BanginJimmy
10-07-2008, 02:51 PM
Understand that my first post wasn't against the Fair Tax, I've never been against the Fair Tax on anything other than the fact it requires the people to hold the government accountable on the 23% sales tax.. (what prevents the government from raising that rate) That is asking a lot of a nation of people who are more concerned with who Britney Spears is dating than tax policy.

The same thing that prevents them from raising the rate now, absolutely nothing.

Tracy
10-07-2008, 04:21 PM
oh contrair

ive always worked hard. If you are promised something and deliver on your end, then yeah the other party should live up to that deal. If you can show you are warranted that "financial" progress, then yeah, you deserve it. Im talking about the people that dont do anything , dont work hard, and think everything is owed to them. I dont fit in that category.

Yeah at 26 years old and after 6 years of working for other people, and realizing that i was never going to be paid what i was WORTH, i took a different route. No reason to be bitter about that.

You seriously dont want to open that can of worms, please. its been quiet, i suggest you just ignore anything you see me post.

We dont have a relationship where you can even think about talking to me.

thanks

I am by no means bitter. I think it's funny now.
:lmfao: